Missing Witches - WF - Christena Cleveland： GOD IS A BLACK WOMAN

00:00:00.000 we've been missing you do you want to find the witch friends you've been missing do you want to

00:00:06.580 participate in these conversations live and do you want to support the work of recovering a true

00:00:11.800 history of feminist ideas about magic do you want to hang out do you want an invite to zoom together

00:00:18.000 with amy and myself every new moon along with our hilarious diverse wise queer creative anti-racist

00:00:27.140 science and awe-loving coven you must join the missing witches patreon it's pay what you can

00:00:34.880 and we can't wait to meet you there patreon.com slash missing witches you aren't being a proper 0.85

00:00:42.040 woman therefore you must be a witch you must be a witch hello 0.91

00:00:50.220 Oh, Christina Cleveland and I are shaking our sillies out as our teachers taught us when we 0.96

00:00:59.540 were kids, shaking that energy out so we can dive into this conversation. Thank you so much to

00:01:05.300 our coven members who are listening between your ears and to Christina Cleveland for joining us

00:01:12.460 today to talk about, among other things, your new book. So before I get too far into my exaltations,

00:01:21.620 can you introduce yourselves to our audience members who maybe don't know who you are or

00:01:28.040 curious to know more? Absolutely. Yes, I am Christina Cleveland. I stimulate spiritual

00:01:36.500 imagination and I love to think about what it actually looks like the practices the spells of

00:01:44.580 decolonizing religion whether we've spent time in formal religious spaces or not we're all healing

00:01:52.280 from religious trauma and so I'm just really excited as a social psychologist and as a theologian

00:01:59.700 And as just someone who has long been connected to spirit across the universe, I bring all of those things together with art and creativity.

00:02:11.420 And it's just, it's always an adventure.

00:02:14.700 And the book is an adventure.

00:02:17.360 It's a travelogue cum manifesto.

00:02:22.860 Yeah, that's a wonderful way to put it.

00:02:26.040 Yeah, it's a mix of a journey through my own life as a Black woman in white male god's world here in the Western Hemisphere.

00:02:35.040 And it's also a book about my travels on one particular pilgrimage across France.

00:02:41.100 It was like a 400-mile walking pilgrimage across the winter mountains in search of Black Madonnas.

00:02:49.020 Yeah, not just aimlessly pilgrimaging.

00:02:50.840 so yes uh in search of ancient black madonnas in these tiny remote mountain villages

00:02:58.840 and why do you think that france has such a high volume it seems a bit unlikely

00:03:05.080 right i mean france is probably the racist country on the planet um so it is strange

00:03:10.500 yes um they're about they're probably about 450 like official black madonnas in the world

00:03:16.400 and over 100 are in france so um there is something and france is so old in terms of the

00:03:22.420 human human population that we still have like access to um in terms of the cities are still

00:03:28.920 there and um rome had a big influence in france so lots of the villages are just super old that's

00:03:35.500 part of it france has also had a long long long devotion to the goddess the ancient ancient god

00:03:40.900 So most of the Black Madonnas are on sites that were Isis sites or Black Artemis of Ephesus sites or Sybil sites, the ballet is what they call her.

00:03:51.700 And so, you know, it just, they're like, yeah, it's the goddess. 0.91

00:03:57.040 It's the goddess reincarnated as Mary, as a Black Mary.

00:04:01.340 And you opened the book with a story about being so compelled to touch one of the icons and then having to run from the police. I mean, what a microcosm of your experience in that one day.

00:04:19.120 yeah yeah i mean as a black woman i was so desiring to to viscerally and physically connect

00:04:28.880 with the black madonna um and i knew and that particular black madonna and moriak is she's

00:04:34.460 about 1700 years old she's super powerful um she's just incredible she was like the legend

00:04:41.200 is that she was found in a forest by a like a pagan princess who um defied the patriarchal

00:04:48.240 order and like left the the walled city in search of this light that she saw in the forest and when

00:04:54.920 she found the light the black madonna was there um with two lion statues and so like i just part

00:05:02.440 of it's like the whole story of her and then also part of it was just she's this like incredibly

00:05:07.460 gorgeous dark sacred image of a woman who's like just fiercely holding on to her black baby boy

00:05:17.040 And in the wake of Black Lives Matter and Me Too, I was just like, I didn't come all this way just to look at her from afar.

00:05:24.580 I will be touching her.

00:05:25.800 And then, of course, I set off alarms.

00:05:27.680 And I'm sort of, yeah, I'm kind of on the most wanted list in that little town.

00:05:34.140 Except for the little tea shop owner who put you in.

00:05:37.780 Oh, totally.

00:05:38.700 Yeah.

00:05:39.220 I mean, it's just such a wonderful story.

00:05:41.900 I was so glad that you opened the book with that story.

00:05:44.120 There is so much in it.

00:05:46.240 and I love true stories where there's so much in it you know yeah humans are symbolic beings but

00:05:53.580 if you don't mind I want to read a passage from the book if that's okay so this is yeah thank you

00:06:02.020 from God is a Black Woman by Christina Cleveland thank you again for being here

00:06:06.100 um i call her the sacred black feminine she is the god who is with and for black women

00:06:16.200 because she is a black woman she is the god who definitively declares that black women 0.95

00:06:25.020 who exist below black men and white women at the bottom of the white male god's social pecking 0.93

00:06:31.600 order, not only matter, excuse me, but are sacred. And in doing so, she declares that all living

00:06:40.660 beings are sacred. She is the God who smashes the white patriarchy and empowers us all to join her,

00:06:49.800 join in her liberating work. She is the God who has a special love for the most marginalized,

00:06:57.660 because she too has known marginalization. She is the God who cherishes our humanity

00:07:06.060 and welcomes our fears, vulnerabilities, and imperfections. Like a loving parent responding

00:07:13.820 to a child's cry, she is the God who promises to come to our aid when we call out to her,

00:07:20.700 no questions asked she is the god in whom we can find hope i mean that that's why i use the word

00:07:32.780 manifesto it really is this like this is the power and these are the power of my words to explain to

00:07:40.400 you know it really is like we have so many listeners and our coven mates who have been

00:07:52.060 really hurt by the church you know in in ways that you can relate to and when we use

00:08:01.840 church vocabulary it's sometimes very triggering for them and painful for them

00:08:08.040 um but at the same time like as we've discussed with other guests as you discuss in your book

00:08:14.180 it's a bit like to me anyway throwing the baby out with the bath water do you you know like

00:08:22.820 white patriarchy has taken these things and made them what they are so rather than discarding them

00:08:31.300 as a whole we can come to a place where our god is a loving god where our god is a is actually

00:08:42.300 there for us and not always thinking that we need to be better or different or pretend to be

00:08:48.060 something we're not i mean there wasn't really a question in there but i'll i'll ask one i read

00:08:54.500 one review I read one review that said this book will save lives and I think it's true how do you

00:09:02.280 respond to that notion of your book being a lifesaver well it certainly saved my life um I

00:09:09.300 remember reading that Tony Morrison said write the book that you need to read and I feel like

00:09:18.380 the process the journey that sent me um well the journey that led to this book saved my life

00:09:24.120 And the process of writing the book forced me to integrate it into my life in a way that

00:09:28.580 was really lifesaving, kind of just like, I can't just say these things.

00:09:32.000 What does it mean for me to actually embody these truths?

00:09:35.520 And how does that impact how I respond to fear, how I respond to my need?

00:09:41.560 If I really believe that God is a Black woman and welcomes my needs, then why am I hiding

00:09:45.640 it in shame?

00:09:47.400 Let's share it.

00:09:48.460 Let's share it with loving community.

00:09:50.040 Let's share it with her, you know, just things like that.

00:09:53.240 so it certainly saved my life. And I think I am part of a community of women, many of whom call

00:10:04.020 themselves witches, who, when I was saying my book's going to be called God as a Black Woman,

00:10:07.880 they're like, you mean goddess as a Black woman? I said, no, I mean, God as a Black woman, in part 0.99

00:10:12.280 because I'm writing this book for people who wouldn't be comfortable with the term goddess,

00:10:16.440 you know, and wouldn't be drawn to a book called Goddess as a Black Woman, because they are still

00:10:22.260 so connected to the white patriarchal imagination. And so I do think there's a really beautiful

00:10:27.980 reclamation aspect that we healers, brujas, curanderas, witches, that's what we do is we

00:10:35.820 take what can be harvested and we make magic with it. And so throwing out the baby with the bath

00:10:43.120 water actually feels like a white patriarchal thing to do. And really we're all about healing

00:10:48.860 and weaving and mending and that the really the beauty that comes from that and so it's it was

00:10:54.600 fun to write this book and be thinking about folks that maybe I've left behind in some of those

00:11:01.220 spaces while also trying to think about folks who are I'm catching up with or not not to even put

00:11:07.740 it in in a linear just different pathways maybe is a better way to say it different pathways

00:11:12.840 yeah different journeys yeah so yeah and i i love your voice being added to this

00:11:20.460 um contemporary conversation you know you mentioned in the book you mentioned uh richard roar

00:11:25.800 who is is a monk but is also like a very progressive thinker along the same lines of

00:11:39.140 what we're talking about today, about this notion of Jesus versus Christ. Can you get into a little

00:11:46.300 bit about your reframing of Jesus and Christ? Sure, sure. Yeah. You know, I think I just

00:11:53.300 separated the two, as maybe they were always meant to be separated. But I just think of Jesus as

00:11:59.380 someone who was assigned a male gender. We actually have no idea how Jesus identified,

00:12:05.520 but he was assigned a male gender and lived in a palestinian body and lived on palestinian land

00:12:12.600 and so all of his teachings in life are really rooted in that time in that space about 2 000

00:12:18.980 years ago whereas christ i think is um love wherever love shows up it is in action and

00:12:27.680 is transcendent that's where christ is and so christ is in me christ is in you christ is in

00:12:33.240 um a mama cat cuddling with her her kittens christ is in the trees that are giving off

00:12:42.600 nutrients and part of a cycle that supports us and supports the rest of the world and so

00:12:47.920 um that i when richard word talks about that matthew fox another catholic um scholar mystic

00:12:55.940 um you know they they've they've both really i think helped a lot of people who come from

00:13:02.200 pretty religious backgrounds to recognize, okay, like our understanding of Jesus doesn't have to

00:13:07.120 be tied to this gendered, historical, racialized person. And then that was helpful for me to begin

00:13:16.720 to realize that, well, if Christ exists in me too, then there's an inherent dignity and purity

00:13:23.940 and beauty and love within me that I can access as I go out and do this work. And so even that

00:13:30.720 manifesto that you read earlier, I really thank my like black Pentecostal background, because we

00:13:36.600 were taught to speak out what we believe is true. And in some of the more progressive spaces that

00:13:42.100 I'm in now, there's a lot I think, because people are so caught cautious about being that

00:13:47.780 top down leader. They're like, well, whatever you want to believe, or, you know, like, we're

00:13:52.820 going to open it up. And I love that. I love that. And also, I'm like, no, God is a black woman. And

00:13:57.580 this is what she's about. Um, and I'm not going to hit you over the head with it, but if you want

00:14:05.280 to lean in, I'm going to come with something very specific that I believe, and we can always be in

00:14:10.700 conversation about it. You know, I'm not mad at you if you have a different perspective,

00:14:13.980 but I'm going to come forth in my truth. And I think finding myself in the divine has helped

00:14:19.540 me to stand in my truth and say, this is what I believe this. And not only this is what I believe,

00:14:24.780 this is what I practice. I practice the sacred Black feminine who cares for the most marginalized.

00:14:33.180 I practice the sacred Black feminine who declares that all Black women are holy and sacred and

00:14:38.940 therefore everyone else is holy and sacred. It's really a practice. Yeah and I mean you

00:14:48.640 you mentioned this but you were raised in a christian environment and again like i say a lot

00:14:55.780 of us witches i'm using air quotes here but a lot of us witches choose to sort of reject that rather

00:15:01.480 than you know dive into it and reframe it and redefine it um so what what was that moment for

00:15:11.900 you where you kept your faith, but took it in a different path? Yeah. I mean, I don't think that

00:15:20.160 was the, yeah, I don't think that was the moment. I think there was a complete deconstruction first

00:15:25.540 where there was a lot of like, I mean, just a long period of time where I was like, I don't

00:15:29.400 really know what I believe. I just know I don't believe that. And right now I'm too triggered to

00:15:35.540 even try to sift through that to find out what is worth reclaiming you know um and as i got deeper

00:15:45.880 into understanding the history of goddess worship and i saw how much christianity has stamped out

00:15:52.700 those religions and those people i was just like who is jesus if jesus represents this

00:16:01.760 like genocidal impulse you know and so um for a while there i was just like and then if anyone

00:16:10.020 even if like my parents or somebody you know at family dinner pray referred to god as father i'd

00:16:15.000 be like triggered you know just like god is not a male you know and i totally get that right i mean

00:16:21.960 like and it's messy and the the coming free is messy you know and so i think i just allowed for

00:16:29.600 that as much as I could but I think the more I got once I you know started connecting with what

00:16:34.920 I call the sacred black feminine once I started seeking out images metaphors archetypes of black

00:16:41.920 and female deities um I started to heal I mean finding myself in the divine

00:16:48.480 just transformed me like finally seeing oh my gosh I'm sacred too oh my gosh she relates to

00:16:57.840 my specific pain as a Black woman. Oh my gosh, she walks through this world in a Black female body 1.00

00:17:03.860 too. She knows what it's like to be stolen. She knows what it's like to be lost. She knows what 1.00

00:17:09.440 it's like to have dear ones incarcerated. That transformed me in such a powerful way.

00:17:20.620 And so as I went on that journey, I was then able to go back to some of my roots and say, well,

00:17:27.420 what's, what's life-giving here? What, you know, what are the elements that helped me to get this

00:17:32.860 far? And some of that prophetic imagination. I mean, it's so funny, like listening to witch

00:17:39.360 podcasts and reading books, like, you know, witchy books and just, and the people talk about spells

00:17:43.600 and I'm like, okay, a spell is not that different from like a prophecy. And we got those all the

00:17:49.620 time in the church. And my grandmother was viewing those all the time. And then when people talk

00:17:54.780 about like trans corporality I'm like yeah I was slain in the spirit like all the time 1.00

00:17:59.400 and so you start to realize it if it wasn't for that background I'm not sure I would believe in 1.00

00:18:07.540 magic because I was taught as a little girl the spirit is at work and doing things and look for it 0.85

00:18:14.760 and so when I was on my pilgrimage I'd show up at these black Madonna sites and be like all right

00:18:19.480 cool like what's gonna happen you know like show me and I had an expectation and a belief

00:18:24.600 and an intention and that's when things started happening because I manifested them essentially

00:18:32.300 right but I wouldn't have even if I had grown up in a different space like say an atheist space

00:18:37.840 which no shade no shade to atheists but if I'd grown up in a space where there was no expectation

00:18:42.060 you know there was no of that type of spiritual like awakening I don't think I would have even

00:18:47.880 had the imagination to be like I'm gonna go to France I'm gonna go to all these ancient mountain

00:18:52.600 villages. I'm going to visit these black Madonnas and be like, transform me. And so I think the more 0.99

00:19:01.300 I got connected to the sacred black feminine, the more I was just like, anything could happen.

00:19:06.700 So if, if she can heal me, if she can heal all, she can heal my past too. And if, if white male 1.00

00:19:16.360 god did it she can undo it if she truly is the antidote and i think there's even one point in

00:19:22.880 the book where i was like i had no idea how she was going to heal this shame that i inherited

00:19:27.160 from white male god but i just knew that if there was a solution it was in her because she offers

00:19:32.980 the complete opposite of what white male god offers so can you describe white male god

00:19:40.880 Sure. Yeah, I call him the patron saint of white patriarchy. He's basically the unseen but quite seen vibe in all of what I'd say at least the Western hemisphere that anoints and calls anything that approximates white maleness as more important, holier, more legitimate, more valuable than anything that doesn't resemble or approximate or fit into the box. 0.96

00:20:10.880 of whiteness and maleness and so he's the reason why here in the united states it's like well of 0.84

00:20:16.320 course like white men should be on the supreme court they should be the moral leaders because 0.61

00:20:20.900 they approximate white white white male gods and it's like well what about black women oh well why 1.00

00:20:27.180 you know and so black women as the opposite of that are often seen as dirty and lazy and unreliable 1.00

00:20:33.180 and if black women who deal with racism sexism and capitalism dare to ask for help they're called 0.95

00:20:40.820 welfare queens and they're like derogated and so white male god is this system that adds moral 0.93

00:20:49.900 test to whiteness and maleness yes i do want to add as a little you know um party party wrecker 0.98

00:20:59.720 a little party wrecking fact that the the welfare queen was like a reagan era myth basically you 0.96

00:21:07.700 know there was like one person that they totally trying to you know mess with the system and they 1.00

00:21:14.000 took what that one example and said okay you know all all black women are this and I think 0.71

00:21:20.000 Reagan is a great example of the the white male god you know it's his only his only qualification 0.88

00:21:29.440 for whiteness and maleness really yeah I mean he really he especially I think white male god 0.96

00:21:36.320 especially likes to toy with us by anointing the most mediocre of white men just to prove 0.86

00:21:43.960 excellence isn't even necessary you know 0.53

00:21:47.620 okay okay i i need to move away from my reagan brain like otherwise i'll just i'll just get

00:21:57.160 angry um because i want to talk about spiritual imagination i mean imagination is something that

00:22:04.760 around here we are doing our best to resist you know capitalist patriarchy and put it on the same

00:22:12.840 level as intellect maybe even nudge it a bit higher if we really if we really get our way

00:22:19.000 can you talk about spiritual imagination absolutely yeah and I thought in the chat one of the members

00:22:26.520 of the community asked the question that relates to that about an example of what manifested which

00:22:32.300 i feel like is like a good i think i can answer both questions at once perfect um when i went to

00:22:38.060 go visit the black madonna of mund there are actually two in mund but the one that is that i

00:22:43.820 was um that that i talk about in the book is that she's called our lady of the fountain and she's

00:22:49.740 called our lady of a fountain because back in the 1600s which is probably when she first showed up

00:22:56.520 on the scene, the best water in town came from the fountain that came out of her loin.

00:23:03.660 And so that fountain is still there. It's no longer functioning, but the fountain is still

00:23:08.180 there. And I call her She Who's Thick Thighs Save Lives because I've had this, thanks to white male 0.51

00:23:14.840 gods, war on our bodies. I've had like a lifelong struggle with eating disorders. And so I call him

00:23:25.220 in my book God of Bulimia and I really talk about how his the way he adds morality to beauty

00:23:31.980 particularly white patriarchal notions of beauty really puts us all in a shame spiral that just

00:23:38.160 makes us hate our bodies because we'll never actually be beautiful enough which means we'll

00:23:41.300 never be good enough and so um I had you know I when I went to visit the black Madonna of Mund

00:23:51.500 she who six eyes save lives I went I saw that above her head is a banner that is in the is

00:24:01.120 is in Latin but the translation is I am black but I am beautiful and so there's that but in there

00:24:08.520 where it's like my blackness is an impediment to my beauty and that's actually a mistranslation of

00:24:14.220 the scripture the holy scripture which was actually I am black and I am beautiful but

00:24:20.520 during the transatlantic slave trade um translators intentionally mistranslated it to justify the

00:24:27.360 subjugation of black people so when I saw her that there were all these white angels painted 0.99

00:24:32.560 on a fresco above her above her battered I mean out of all the black madonnas I visited even though 0.97

00:24:38.120 she's one of the youngest she's only about five six six she's about 600 years old because she's 1.00

00:24:43.880 outdoors in a fountain she looks really battered like like whether she really calls into question 1.00

00:24:49.820 do black lives matter when you see her body because she's so beat up yet she's like stout 1.00

00:24:56.560 and her legs are just planted and she is firmly squaring off against you with this spout coming 1.00

00:25:05.740 out of her loins and I saw that banner and I thought and I started to cry because that's what

00:25:11.860 the white boy said to me oh you're so pretty for a black girl and so I started crying and I said to

00:25:17.280 her they said that about you too and I reached out to touch her body and it felt like my body

00:25:25.180 became her body in that moment and I was like weeping for her too and then it had been drizzling

00:25:30.640 but in that moment when I said they did they did that to you too and then I started crying

00:25:36.480 torrential downpour just torrential like wiped out like people just started like running into

00:25:42.560 their home and so when I think about spiritual imagination and how that interacts with the

00:25:48.200 actual elements I don't think it's a coincidence that in that moment where I just start bawling

00:25:55.320 and I touch her body that all this rain just starts falling like like the heaviest rain on

00:26:02.820 my whole pilgrimage even though I was caught in several rainstorms you know and so like if I think

00:26:08.820 if I didn't, if I hadn't had the imagination to go up there and say, I'm going to connect with

00:26:12.720 this Black Madonna and see what she has to offer me. And not just see what she has to offer me in

00:26:19.040 a consumeristic way, but allow that to transform me and heal me so that I can go and pass that on

00:26:25.640 to my beloved and my community and say, let's all reclaim our bodies as sacred. And what does that

00:26:34.900 actually look like? And what does it look like in terms of the reparations work we're doing

00:26:39.140 towards trans black women? And, you know, just how the outpouring of all of this, we really say

00:26:43.840 are like her, when we come to her fountain and receive her water, how does that change us all?

00:26:56.200 She who sick thighs save lives. And so with each one, I got to do that. And it's like, it's,

00:27:04.400 It's like allowing your spiritual imagination and impulse to interact with the energy that's there to produce an experience that, you know, people will call it all sorts of different things, depending on their spiritual background.

00:27:23.900 Yeah.

00:27:24.920 Yeah.

00:27:27.440 I'm really stuck on this notion.

00:27:31.120 i've been doing some writing about the bible myself um shout out to our good friend sherry

00:27:35.980 shown who wrote the book the hoodoo guide to the bible that really helped me with this with this

00:27:41.680 notion of of taking these verses back you know the baby bath water thing of instead of discarding

00:27:47.640 them taking them back when you said you know this this phrase had been translated and i i've been

00:27:55.400 thinking about this so much like these books of the bible you know King James version and all of

00:28:01.800 they've been translated and translated and translated with with an ulterior motive and

00:28:07.320 translated and translated yeah King James was not legit yeah no not at all so so to me if they have

00:28:16.660 been translated throughout millennia then they are ours also to translate totally yeah they

00:28:25.340 i love that yeah because that i feel like that's the work that you're doing is not is

00:28:31.280 is a translation you know you talked about transformation too and and this is the same

00:28:38.760 thing to me translation transfer transformation and and seeing divinity and it allowing you to

00:28:48.160 stand in your truth because you are like you say it's a practice it's not a notion that god is a

00:28:56.720 black woman for you it's a practice and i think translation is a lot about that totally yeah

00:29:04.560 there's um there's a a comparative religion scholar i think his name is neil douglas

00:29:10.880 clott i might that it might be slightly off but some something along those lines um who has

00:29:17.860 studied the mystical Aramaic that Jesus said, the historical Jesus actually spoke, which is,

00:29:24.140 it's an Attic language. It's not spoken and I'm sorry, it's not written down and it's not

00:29:29.080 currently spoken. And so, but basically it's, it's, it's all mystical and it's like a dance

00:29:33.860 between the, the listener and the speaker. And so anything that Jesus said, there were like an

00:29:41.060 infinite number of possibilities because the listener brought as much interpretation and

00:29:45.440 translation to the, um, to the, to the exchange as the speaker, which is really hard for us to

00:29:51.780 understand because we have such a speaker centric culture where it's like, it's really the onus is

00:29:57.240 on the speaker to, to make sure that everything's clear, you know? And so the unfortunate thing is

00:30:03.380 that even before King James got his grubby little hands on the Greek, it was translated into Greek

00:30:08.820 from this mystical aramaic so this like lovely poetic um fantastical melodic language relational

00:30:19.620 language got turned into like essentially german on steroids right away and so then you it becomes

00:30:27.240 the language of the empire and you lose all the mystery and you lose all the relationality and

00:30:32.500 all of the magic in this like incredibly mystical language that jesus actually spoke and so it's just

00:30:40.660 it's so sad it's so sad and so this guy for example um he shows that like you know in the the

00:30:48.220 the lord's prayer which is what it's called in the christian context um the prayer that jesus prayed

00:30:52.940 um it starts our father and he's like actually a more likely translation by a mystical american

00:30:59.500 person would be Oberther oh which is like very different than our father

00:31:05.280 and so we just just even in that one piece we lose so much of the really the power you know

00:31:16.640 and it just becomes again this top down you know and like yeah yeah exactly that's what I was

00:31:22.000 thinking when you're saying like we focus now on like the singular voice and that seems very

00:31:27.640 in line with like capitalist white supremacy that there is only one voice that is you know

00:31:34.380 the speaker's voice and one message and I think one of the things that I love about connecting

00:31:41.780 to the Black Madonnas is it's almost like feeling it's almost like connecting with a superhero you 0.74

00:31:47.600 see yourself in this really powerful sacred image and you can I start to just think well if they

00:31:54.860 can do it I can do it too if you know just so many of the ways in which I thought that my voice

00:31:59.400 didn't matter my story didn't matter my perspective didn't matter I now have not only this sacred

00:32:06.340 image of it but also the the hundreds of thousands of people around the world and across history

00:32:12.000 who have looked to this same figure as a divine figure and are like cheering me on and affirming

00:32:18.520 me and I actually have done some meditations where I've like imagined all the pilgrims

00:32:24.720 of this one black madonna just like in a stadium cheering me on as i tell her story saying like

00:32:30.960 finally her story is being told you know and i don't say that in a way that's like um i mean

00:32:38.060 hopefully it's not in this egotistical way of like ha ha ha like but i'm doing this but really

00:32:43.420 this like i'm in a community of people who have been transformed like she has and they weren't in

00:32:50.040 a time and a place where someone was allowing them to tell their story and to say, this is what can

00:32:55.880 be done in the sacred Black feminine. This is what can change. This is what can heal. You can heal 0.53

00:33:01.540 yourself when you come to her. And so it's just, yeah. I will say there was nothing

00:33:09.740 even remotely egotistical that I found in my reading of your work. It really just does seem

00:33:18.580 like a a communal act like really like i say you know people say this book will save lives you say

00:33:26.840 it saved my life um but it really seemed like an attempt to do both to to save others lives while

00:33:33.180 simultaneously saving your own well it was really powerful to get into the lineage of the black

00:33:39.800 Madonna, to find ancestors in that. And I know bell hooks and Toni Morrison and others have

00:33:48.400 really lamented the fact that African-Americans haven't been as connected to that tradition.

00:33:53.680 And so it was really powerful for me to find writings by black women where there are mentions

00:33:58.640 of the black Madonna and like stories of North Africans who traveled to Spain to see a black

00:34:06.880 Madonna or brought a black Madonna with them from you know Algeria and so just connecting with that

00:34:13.980 and especially as an African-American where you know my I can only trace my lineage back to the

00:34:19.440 last generation of enslaved people and so I don't have that longer one that many people of other

00:34:26.440 races have and so it's like so beautiful to connect yeah it's ancient tradition and of course 0.90

00:34:33.040 the ones that go even deeper to ISIS and yeah once we get to Mesopotamia all bets are off

00:34:39.560 really but I mean Turkey yeah that's and that's why Risa and I started this this missing witches

00:34:48.440 project is is for that same reason that we knew that the the the history existed but it wasn't

00:34:55.740 taught to us certainly not in Sunday school not in high school and not in university um so we

00:35:02.460 really had to go digging to find these stories but much like yourself like when you find them

00:35:08.360 it's it's so validating to feel connected to a whole web of ancient history iconoclasts

00:35:18.120 people who practiced whether or not their voice was the dominant voice it really and again like

00:35:25.160 that's what comes through so much in your book is like this power of imagination to create your own

00:35:30.960 power like you said to stand in your own truth what does it mean to you personally to stand in

00:35:36.640 your own truth I think that it's been most empowering and scariest and probably riskiest

00:35:47.120 to stand in my own truth in relationships yeah I'm it publicly I've always been a bit of a truth 0.96

00:35:54.960 teller and so even when I was back in like really really Christian communities I was still always

00:36:00.620 speaking out about racism and that kind of, you know, those sorts of issues. But I, for whatever

00:36:07.240 reason, part personality, part the way I was raised, I think I tend to lose myself in close

00:36:12.880 relationship and really have a hard time distinguishing my needs from the needs of the

00:36:19.840 beloved and my expectations from the needs of the, from the expectation, or at least my perceived

00:36:24.440 expectations of the beloved. Most of my beloveds are not nearly as exacting as I think in my

00:36:30.500 head um but i think for me to stand in my truth in one way that the sacred black feminine has

00:36:37.620 been forming me even since i wrote the book is what does it mean to be as good a friend to myself

00:36:43.380 as i am to everyone else and what and when does that call out the holy no in me

00:36:51.300 um even did you say the holy no holy no yeah i've been calling it the holy yeah the holy no

00:36:59.440 please expand just realizing that there's a real holiness and just no especially when it

00:37:07.920 when it protects my sacredness and it has and it's not necessarily only when people are asking

00:37:15.820 more of me than I'm willing to give or like there's like an explicitly hostile force out

00:37:22.560 there so of course the holy no is like you know some colonizer who tries to tell me tell me about

00:37:26.860 myself at Whole Foods or something like that like of course that person gets the holy no

00:37:31.140 but the holy no is also there to um honor my sacredness when a friend says hey let's go do

00:37:39.160 this and I really really really don't want to go do that and it's really important for the

00:37:45.640 of our friendship for me to be honest about that and so I just call it the holy no then

00:37:51.900 which then creates space for the spacious yes

00:37:54.680 I'm adding that the holy no and the spacious yes I'm putting that in my pocket forever

00:38:03.220 um do you feel comfortable talking about the holy no that you gave Duke University

00:38:09.260 oh sure yeah happy to um so I was a professor at Duke University when I went on my initial

00:38:16.300 pilgrimage in 2018 and I remember walking on that pilgrimage and realizing

00:38:23.140 duke to me as a plantation i'm not saying everyone who works there has to envision it that way but i

00:38:30.820 was i i had been there for a couple years at that point and was so clear on the way that i was

00:38:36.100 racially exploited and even being brought there into that position and it was a mess and it and

00:38:42.480 i was not able to do my best work because of all of the administrative racism and so um i remember

00:38:49.600 being on the pilgrimage and realizing this is this pilgrimage is really the beginning because

00:38:54.300 here I am encountering all these images of the divine taking time creating sacred space to be

00:38:59.880 transformed by them each and every one and I can either leave this in my journal essentially or I

00:39:06.400 can take this back home to the U.S. with me and allow it to like change my life really turn my

00:39:12.420 like turn my life into a pilgrimage not just this this like little trip this cute little trip to

00:39:18.020 France and, um, you know, I, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a typical black woman in the sense that

00:39:28.840 in the U S in the sense that, um, even though I have a middle-class income, there's no family

00:39:34.640 wealth. And so there, and if anything, people rely on me. And so, um, you know, having a

00:39:43.820 job at a place like duke feels safe feels like i think the resource scarcity

00:39:50.160 clamors and clangs and bells are so loud and i i really do i do just have to add that when you

00:39:59.220 live in the united states your health care is tied to your job which is terrified yeah totally

00:40:05.260 and so health care retirement funds um and then just the stability of being at a place like duke

00:40:12.760 and the credibility that comes from that

00:40:15.100 and all those sorts of things.

00:40:16.700 And I really had to ask myself,

00:40:19.540 if I really believe that God is a Black woman,

00:40:23.360 would she leave me hanging if I stepped off the plantation? 0.86

00:40:27.580 Does she want me to say no to my dignity

00:40:32.080 in order to get some coin,

00:40:35.440 in order to have health insurance? 0.92

00:40:38.420 Now that's something white male God would do.

00:40:40.080 but i don't believe in white male god anymore i believe in the sacred black feminine and the

00:40:46.260 sacred black feminine is speaking to me through my cousin slash ancestor harriet who's saying

00:40:51.780 get the hell off that plantation you might not know how you're going to make money you might not

00:40:57.480 know what the terrain is you might not know what the language is you might not know if you have

00:41:01.140 transferable skills you might not know whether you're going to get health care or not but neither

00:41:06.740 did I and neither did Harriet well I just I just yeah that's what Harriet was telling me yes oh

00:41:17.540 right yeah all I knew was the plantation I didn't have a plan I didn't have connections I didn't I

00:41:27.520 didn't know for sure how I was going to get off and how I was going to survive and so I think that

00:41:33.080 was a really powerful holy no for me to just say I'm going to step into this belief I'm going to

00:41:38.980 step into this practice it's not just something for my journal and I have to believe that she's

00:41:48.340 got my back I have to believe that she's got my back or else what what's the point what's the 0.93

00:41:54.700 point you know it's and honestly I will say believing in a god who's a black woman it's not

00:42:01.040 that hard to trust her I'm like oh it's a black woman oh it's handled you know what I mean like 0.99

00:42:05.360 we're pretty awesome like very rarely do black women let me down you know like not flaky like

00:42:17.160 not weak and so it's it's it's it's empowering to me to also believe to believe you know and to just

00:42:25.960 say this is this is this is the step I have to take and you know it's wonderful to have stories

00:42:31.100 like Harriet Tubman's where she's like you know just focus on the North Star that's your guide

00:42:35.500 what is the North Star the North Star is like like it's a connection to abundance yes you know just

00:42:43.540 keep breathing and connecting to abundance so I was doing lots of long walks as I was preparing

00:42:48.820 to leave I was writing down gratitude lists every day you know like and just any way that I could

00:42:55.800 connect to abundance because obviously the clang of fear is just always so loud and then of course

00:43:01.320 white male god tries to lure you back to the plantation any way he can so you know i wrote 0.53

00:43:05.980 this like um open letter and usually when like a black woman writes an open letter when they when 0.89

00:43:11.640 they quit nobody else wants to wants to hire them so i'm like oh i'm sure no one else in academia

00:43:16.440 will want to hire me sure enough like two months later like one of the deans at uc berkeley called

00:43:22.740 and was like, do you want to come work here? So it's like, there's always some carrot to lure you

00:43:27.480 back into the plantation. And so you have to just keep connecting to abundance and keep saying,

00:43:33.820 well, if God is a black woman, does she really just want me to move over to the plantation 0.99

00:43:37.260 across the country? Or do I, you know, like, no, we're not making lateral plantation moves. 0.98

00:43:43.240 i think i really i'm glad that you brought up harriet tubman because i feel like

00:43:53.660 you know her her parting words were um correct me if i get it not exactly right uh i i go to

00:44:00.640 prepare a place for you and that those were her final words and i really feel like you're

00:44:05.940 you have done the same you have gone on this pilgrimage in order to prepare a place for

00:44:11.740 other people which is your book that place is your book you've prepared this place for other

00:44:15.940 people to find the the grace that you have also found through your discovery I find you very

00:44:23.220 Harriet Tubman-esque but the uh we're an ancestor so I hope she's rubbed off on me I think so I

00:44:32.980 think so but the um the holy no of academia or duke at least led to the spacious yes of sacred

00:44:41.240 folk can you talk about sacred folk yeah yeah i um i have a wonderful little team that i work with

00:44:48.040 and we create all sorts of resources for people to get more free and we integrate social psych

00:44:54.640 and social sciences with um just like interfaith no faith spiritual practices a lot of them rooted

00:45:00.260 in like mindfulness and other things that are pretty like adapt adaptive to people's lives

00:45:05.600 and um yeah it's just a joy it's such a joy to be doing that work and to have students through that

00:45:13.400 through that capacity because that's the thing I miss the most about being in academia is having

00:45:17.740 students and people that I'm kind of interacting with over a longer period of time and so um

00:45:23.300 that's been really really joyful and it gives me a chance to be creative in a way that

00:45:28.220 I was never able to do legally in academia a lot less red tape

00:45:35.420 yeah so um yeah it's always in it even the way that I that I run sacred folk my operations

00:45:44.540 architect is often saying gosh even the way that we work here it's like rhythms of rest and if if

00:45:53.120 God is a black woman then we the whole team is black women except for one black man and it's like

00:45:58.220 if god is a black woman then she doesn't want us to wear our holy selves out trying to do 0.91

00:46:02.140 liberation for everybody else you know so even just like the rhythms of rest that we have and

00:46:06.700 the salaries that we have and the the choices that we make um are based in like an ethic of 0.53

00:46:13.980 the sacred black feminine like does the sacred black feminine want us to lower our e-course 0.99

00:46:18.380 prices just so we can be competitive for black friday no sacred black feminine doesn't like

00:46:23.740 and so it's just it's been really neat to try to create something with a much more liberating

00:46:33.020 framework for even doing business you know or even doing organizational development and that's

00:46:40.200 been fun yeah I love this I think she wants to transform every part of our lives

00:46:45.280 and this this if then statement that you use as your practice that's wonderful

00:46:52.600 i ask myself that all the time to me even in the run-up you know this book launch has been so

00:47:00.140 challenging um i think it's difficult to put a book as vulnerable as this out into the world

00:47:06.180 and um there have been so many times where i because of i think the vulnerable you just the

00:47:14.760 vulnerability of it it's so easy to fall into like comparison with what other people are doing or

00:47:19.840 that person's getting recognition for their book that I covet you know and every time that's come

00:47:25.900 up I've just asked myself but if I really believe that God is a black woman then you know and it

00:47:34.460 has felt like not like a chastising or like I have to live up to a standard but really it's like I

00:47:40.860 can breathe and then I'm like oh this is another she's just showing me another way I can be more

00:47:46.880 free from white patriarchal measures of success. She's just leading me to the water. And so many

00:47:54.200 Black Madonnas are connected to like springs, you know, these like thermal springs. That's one of 1.00

00:47:58.680 the reasons why people would, they were associated with miracles. It's because people would come and

00:48:03.400 dip in the springs, these sacred springs. And so it's like, she just always wants to keep bringing

00:48:08.100 me back to that healing spring. And here's like another thing that I'm carrying that I don't have

00:48:13.640 to carry because i'm too sacred for that yes yes like listeners i want you to use your spiritual

00:48:21.000 imagination to imagine a god who loves you who doesn't hate you like even if it's just as basic

00:48:30.480 as using our imagination to imagine a god that doesn't hate us this is earth shattering

00:48:38.240 earth shattering and i call her she who cherishes our hot mess like it's yes it's actually my mess

00:48:46.420 that is my most sacred offering to her yes love that you you wrote it in the book and then you

00:48:52.780 said it again earlier and i wrote it down um she allows for messy

00:48:57.520 i mean welcome yes yeah i mean the the spacious yes of of messy of including messy like everything

00:49:10.480 it's like everything's an experiment that's cool like it's all experiments and we're just like

00:49:14.600 gonna try things and we're gonna clean up whatever gets whatever explosions happen

00:49:20.180 but in the midst of the experiment beautiful things are gonna grow too and we're gonna

00:49:24.380 We're going to literally encounter new elements, you know, and the whole, this precision and 0.63

00:49:34.580 linearity and exactness of white male God, we can be free of that.

00:49:41.300 And someone that was as over, who's as overeducated as me, that's like a daily invitation, like

00:49:49.260 the experiment as opposed to the controlled in lab environment yes yes but you know um magic is

00:50:00.340 is prophecy and we have a scientist friend who says that um hypotheses are prophecies you know

00:50:07.820 this absolutely yeah um i want you to respond to one more small reading and then um if our guests

00:50:16.520 have questions, you can get them ready now because we are getting to that time when we spiral out

00:50:22.880 into infinity. We never say goodbye. We never close the circle. I got to this page and I was

00:50:31.460 like, I love it when an author answers my questions as I'm reading their book. And this

00:50:38.140 was one of those moments he wrote, I often wondered whether asserting that God is female

00:50:43.160 and feminine further tethers us to a gender binary that excludes trans and non-binary people

00:50:48.900 and insists that femininity is the only legitimate expression of femaleness.

00:50:54.820 But as I have explored the roots of misogyny, I have come to believe that proclaiming God's

00:51:01.660 femaleness and femininity is a crucial step on our collective journey toward liberation

00:51:07.880 from toxic masculinity. And you go on to say, femaleness is under constant attack, 0.98

00:51:13.840 and our sacred connection to femininity has been violently severed. If we bypass these significant

00:51:21.020 wounds, that really got me there. If we bypass these significant wounds, society as a whole

00:51:28.740 will never heal from misogyny, much less gender binaries. I hope that, you're talking about the

00:51:36.060 book here, I hope that it will join with other creative explorations of all of God's genders

00:51:41.680 and gender expressions. So if you want to expand on that, you can. Otherwise, I do have a question

00:51:48.840 that, can we imagine our own God? I believe so. I'm going to expand on that first in answering

00:52:00.760 that question um yeah i i think that statement that i felt really important to include in the

00:52:08.200 book after i'd written the book um because of my relationships with my non-binary and trans friends

00:52:14.360 and realizing the violence of cis women just going out there being like that's a woman um without any

00:52:21.560 acknowledgement that that's part of a larger conversation that often excludes trans and

00:52:28.680 non-binary people. And, um, and yet at the same time, it felt important for me to stand in my

00:52:35.000 truth and not try to write a book called God is a trans black woman. You know, that's not my 0.94

00:52:39.980 personal experience, but to stand in my truth and say, when I think when each of us claim our truth

00:52:45.840 in a way that's authentic and opens up space for other people to claim their truth, then all these

00:52:52.640 truths can be in conversation with each other and I as much as I believe that God is a Black woman

00:52:59.100 I also believe that God is an everything you know it's both and and the more I believe that God is

00:53:06.320 a Black woman the more insistent I am that God is an everything including a white man you know

00:53:12.840 and so it's like finding sacredness in all of our racial and gendered identities and everything in

00:53:20.840 between um and in my and so yes I think we can imagine a god and I think it's important for us

00:53:31.000 to imagine a god who specifically relates to us because I found that the more well

00:53:37.520 yeah I'm gonna I'm just gonna say based on my experience the more sacred I have

00:53:43.040 come to believe in myself so the more i've come to believe myself as sacred

00:53:51.080 the more i've been able to affirm the sacredness of others and i think part of the problem in our 0.52

00:53:58.560 world is literally that there are a bunch of insecure white men like putin

00:54:04.080 just causing like that's literally from like among other things a disconnect from their own

00:54:11.720 sacredness you know and an inability to deal with the resource scarcity that they've created out of

00:54:17.920 that and so i think that's it's important for us to find ourselves in the divine truly find

00:54:23.560 ourselves in the divine not just put in god we trust on the dollar bill right but truly encounter

00:54:30.220 ourselves in the divine i i love that you know um you said if the book title had been goddess

00:54:37.740 as a black woman then everyone would have kind of been like okay but I love like three people who

00:54:43.220 would have liked that would have read it you know what I mean I love the confrontational

00:54:49.740 hopefully deliberately provocative nature of your title you know I uh I have a Christian mother and

00:54:56.760 I'm always sending her books like yours so that we can sort of navigate this path that she and I

00:55:02.780 are both on but in very different very very different ways so yeah her birthday is next

00:55:07.840 month and and i i absolutely know what she'll be getting for her birthday it makes a wonderful

00:55:11.860 passive aggressive gift and with that um julie do you want to turn on your microphone and ask

00:55:19.720 your question or would you rather that i ask it for you julie asks do you have any advice for how

00:55:26.700 former Christians like me can help encourage current Christians to deconstruct their harmful

00:55:34.480 version of Christianity, Julie adds. It seems like many Christians are more likely to listen 0.80

00:55:40.420 to people who still identify as Christian and are trying to make change from within rather than

00:55:47.060 those criticizing from the outside. I never, I mean, you still consider yourself a Christian

00:55:52.760 in your way yes and no nah i mean i don't think there's anybody i don't think christianity thinks

00:56:00.360 i'm a christian yes i call myself witchy with christian roots yeah so i mean i think i can

00:56:06.180 never escape from my christian roots um just as a social psychologist like just recognizing

00:56:11.660 non-conscious processing um but then also um i don't know that i don't want to necessarily but

00:56:18.440 I don't I don't really call myself a Christian anymore um and there's a whole interesting

00:56:24.880 conversation on Twitter going on right now on um whether or not I am a Christian are you a part of

00:56:30.560 that conversation are you just watching it oh no yeah that's why patriarchy trying to uh tell me

00:56:37.160 about myself right so I guess I'll just I'll I'll re-ask the question part of the question which is

00:56:43.540 do you have any advice for how a former christian can help encourage

00:56:47.100 current christians to deconstruct their harmful version of christianity yeah yeah i mean i think

00:56:54.060 what i've learned as i've gotten connected more to goddess spirituality and to the sacred black

00:57:02.660 feminine is that um the whole like priest model of really even helping someone deconstruct

00:57:11.220 something, um, is not really necessary. And so I'm not sure if this is what this, what Julie was

00:57:17.860 asking, but I now trust that the sacred black feminine can connect with people on her terms

00:57:24.600 and in her way. And so I'm a little less likely to, um, to, to get involved in some of those 0.86

00:57:31.860 conversations. And if I do, I really carefully first check whether it's fear or love that's

00:57:38.320 motivating me to um because a lot of times in the past um it was as soon as I got on this path

00:57:47.880 I then started fearing for everyone else that they were still trapped on the plantation and so then I

00:57:54.180 wanted to go and rescue them but it was very they didn't want to be rescued first of all

00:58:01.720 and second of all I wasn't trusting goddess god to get them on her time and in her way

00:58:09.700 um but the one thing that I have found has been helpful is helping people connect with abundance

00:58:15.400 whatever that looks like in their lives because the more spaciousness they have the more they're

00:58:20.800 able to take a look at their at at the whole system that they're a part of but they can't do

00:58:28.200 that because without it's it's i talk about how white male god's liturgy is fear and so they're

00:58:35.020 all just in this like resource scarcity fear mode all the time and so just coming to them and saying

00:58:40.720 hey here's a problem is just going to put up their defenses whereas if i come and say hey let's go for

00:58:46.480 a walk in the woods and connect to the ways that all the time the earth mother is regenerating and

00:58:53.380 healing and providing and teaching us and how can we connect that to the fears that come up

00:59:00.140 when we talk about religion then sometimes there's a spaciousness but yeah it's just like

00:59:11.240 any other in group out group people listen to their own yeah yeah I think um my uh my answer

00:59:19.540 would be just just hit them with a little jeremiah 29 11 it's okay that you don't get

00:59:24.980 it now god has a plan for you you know it's okay yeah and it's amazing i mean when i first started

00:59:36.920 getting getting a little bit more free of patriarchal religious conditioning my first

00:59:42.880 impulse was to go back and then uh shame slash pejoratively um slimeball people into coming on

00:59:50.860 my path i'm like wow it's amazing how deeply ingrained these tactics are yes um rather than

01:00:01.280 just being like you know what their journey is sacred period because they're sacred yeah

01:00:06.780 jeremiah 29 11

01:00:08.740 um i i'll i'll read one more question comment um and then i will let you go back to your busy

01:00:20.740 schedule it's been a joy to sit in the presence of your smile um rachel says i like that you use

01:00:29.000 god because the s of goddess the ess of goddess although it makes it feminine actually means

01:00:36.120 small i didn't know that yeah a reference to adam's rib says rachel thank you rachel

01:00:42.480 thank you um yeah let's not try to be small no no no subversive small like you think i'm small

01:00:51.660 but i'm really you know yeah yeah i'll let you believe that i'm small until the moment comes

01:00:57.240 along yes so listeners let's thank christina cleveland by going out and buying her book

01:01:06.120 or joining her patreon um let's use our holy no to create a spacious yes let's use our spiritual

01:01:16.180 imaginations what other bumper sticker can you give us as a sign off let's just keep telling

01:01:22.460 ourselves i'm too sacred for that i am too sacred for that listeners and so are you you are too

01:01:29.720 sacred for any of this nonsense these male egos that would risk our livelihood on this planet

01:01:36.720 because they don't want to be appear like they're not as powerful as they thought they were it's

01:01:44.320 we are too sacred for that let us rise above it and thank you again for making a place for us

01:01:50.420 with your book i really i i can't wait to uh spread your gospel as it were

01:01:57.020 the gospel according to christina cleveland thank you again so much and to our listeners 0.80

01:02:04.560 bless the fucking bee you're too sacred for any of that yes thanks christina thank you 0.87

01:02:12.240 i'm so grateful to connect with you all i um i've been listening to your podcast every week while i 0.99

01:02:18.340 um wash condition and twist my hair that's so sacred thank you and i do like a little spell

01:02:26.240 and weave while i'm while i'm twisting my hair and listening to your podcast and i joined your

01:02:30.600 patreon too so thank you for your work it's been really life-giving to even be connected to you

01:02:35.140 guys just like the last six weeks or so so i really hope that you can come to one of our

01:02:40.280 coven meetings i would like to they are they are a balm yeah one of our guests last week called

01:02:47.040 the conversation a balm and and recently i have just fully taken that word and put it in our

01:02:52.940 pockets like our meetings are a bomb i think uh our coven mates will will agree so yeah listeners

01:02:59.180 join the missing witches patreon join the christina cleveland patreon and uh if nothing else

01:03:06.200 find a copy of this book read it and then pass it along to someone you love thank you again christina

01:03:11.840 you're welcome thank you for having me of course i hope to meet you in person someday when the air

01:03:17.680 is clear and the sun is out and it's really been lovely thank you again so much for for writing the

01:03:23.300 book for taking it out of your journals and putting it into the world you you have made a

01:03:27.700 place for us thank you again thank you and thanks to everyone who popped in all right yeah bye

01:03:33.140 everybody 0.98

01:03:33.780 you must be a witch

01:03:41.580 the missing witches podcast is brought to you by the missing witches coven

01:03:47.220 join us right now on patreon.com slash missing witches

01:03:51.540 blessed if I can be

Missing Witches - March 03, 2022

WF - Christena Cleveland： GOD IS A BLACK WOMAN

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