Missing Witches - WF Kristen Sollée： Witch Hunt

00:00:00.000 You aren't being a proper woman, therefore you must be a witch. 1.00

00:00:06.560 You must be a witch. 1.00

00:00:09.000 Hello to the Missing Witches Coven!

00:00:11.780 I'm so excited for this chat today with our guest, Kristen Soleil, who is an amazing witch author.

00:00:20.260 Kristen, can you introduce yourself to our listeners?

00:00:23.260 Hi, yes.

00:00:24.880 I have written three books on the legacy of the witch in different forms.

00:00:29.500 Witches, Let's Feminists, Catcall, and my new one is Witch Hunt, A Traveler's Guide to the Power and

00:00:35.760 Persecution of the Witch. I also teach an undergraduate gender studies course for the

00:00:40.480 past six years at the new school called The Legacy of the Witch, and it's introducing feminist

00:00:45.360 concepts and talking about early modern witch hunting history and the witch archetype in

00:00:50.440 popular culture, just a whole mishmash of things. So let's go a little bit chronologically. Catcall

00:00:55.200 is the one that I haven't read, so can you talk a little bit about that? Sure, yeah, that is kind of

00:01:02.100 the relationship of the cat and the cat archetype with femininity throughout history, and the way

00:01:08.780 cats have been disparaged or maligned because of their association with femininity, and tracing

00:01:15.560 that all the way back to Aristotle, and you know, there's the cats and the witch hunts, and the way

00:01:23.360 cats have been used in in politics and uh sort of as um a parallel in our language for women you

00:01:32.780 know catty pussy kittenish all those things so it's kind of a strange book it's the least known

00:01:39.100 um it's like my little sleeper but i but i love it nevertheless yeah having having read the the

00:01:45.440 second two i think definitely catcall is next on my list for sure i'm really excited to get into

00:01:50.520 that so some of the people that I know that are witches are like you know I was I was born a witch

00:01:56.360 I always knew and some people were like oh you know I watched the craft in high school and that

00:02:01.000 kind of got me thinking which are you which witch are you um so I grew up with a lot of things that

00:02:09.980 I would call witchcraft now and my mom is a witch and so hold on hold on I can't I have to stop you

00:02:17.140 there can you please tell us a little bit about your mom and what kind of witch she is yeah not

00:02:21.960 an initiated tradition but a clairvoyant and someone who you know works with the natural world

00:02:27.120 for manifestation and um and for her own healing and community healing etc and so

00:02:35.120 yeah I feel like that that was something I just thought of as stuff mom did or taught me about

00:02:42.100 like meditation and manifestation and, and, you know, you know, what herbs to use for this or

00:02:47.080 that, or, um, and like how to write, you know, what I wanted and how to, you know, carry that

00:02:52.920 around or bury it or do whatever with it to like, you know, get what I, you know, was after. But I

00:02:58.700 had a lot of Wiccan friends in high school. So I was like, oh, that's what witchcraft is. Cause 0.95

00:03:01.980 that was the nineties and I just didn't know, you know? And so that was never my path. I was

00:03:06.920 never drawn to that, even though I love them. Um, and so I was like, never really identified

00:03:11.340 with that word until maybe my 20s when I met a bunch of different practitioners in New York.

00:03:16.420 And then they took me to witch shops. And then I was like, oh, it can be so many more things than,

00:03:22.400 you know, so I guess it's a weird question. I don't really have one answer. But I guess as

00:03:27.280 far as using the term, it was much later in life. But as far as like the practice, I would say

00:03:34.000 my whole life, you know what I mean? Definitely, definitely. And the practices

00:03:39.860 have changed but oh yes yes absolutely so if you feel comfortable can you describe some of the

00:03:47.140 some of the things I mean you're a writer and I think we both find um that that is part of our

00:03:54.820 practice oh yes absolutely always um but do you use tarot cards are you a diviner like what what

00:04:02.860 kind of things does your practice involve spiritual baths like right now not right in this oh yeah

00:04:08.680 yeah these days these days yeah yeah yeah yeah um not like terrible love spells because that was

00:04:14.080 a lot of the past I don't do that anymore because they ended up oh I got some rough outcomes not

00:04:20.840 knowing what I was doing but that's you know every witch will have an experience or many like that

00:04:25.380 um I you know bibliomancy and automatic writing and that candle magic a lot of sex magic um

00:04:33.880 that's sort of my practice i would say can i stop you just because i i can sort of infer

00:04:42.040 what it means but i've never actually heard the word bibliomancy oh yeah it's just using

00:04:48.060 books for divination right so yeah i mean you put yourself in the place that you would um

00:04:54.320 you know centering and um cleansing yourself like you would before you read tarot for yourself or

00:05:00.380 before you, you know, do any sort of, you know, spell work or ritual. And then, you know, for me,

00:05:06.460 sometimes it involves just like picking a book off the shelf and opening to a page and just sort

00:05:12.600 of finding an answer in that page that I'm not expecting or even knowing what I'm looking for.

00:05:19.640 And it sort of comes through. For sure. Sometimes when I'm writing a Missing Witches episode,

00:05:25.780 I'll get the biography of the witch. And before I start reading it, I'll just kind of open it to a

00:05:30.900 random page. And it's sort of like, I feel like it's like that witch or that author, like telling

00:05:36.860 me what is important through this like chance. Absolutely. Yes, there it is. So, I mean, some

00:05:42.400 people do it in a lot more codified fashion. I do it sometimes, you know, on purpose and sometimes

00:05:48.620 it'll just happen because I'm always around books and touching books and they just feel so

00:05:53.820 like an extension of who I am and my thoughts. And even if they're not my books, I just feel like

00:05:59.940 just all that, you know, that energy that goes into creating a book and the knowledge and the

00:06:06.000 history of that knowledge that's part of most books out there. You know, there's a lot of power

00:06:10.440 in those pages, you know, and I don't do it with digital, like Kindle stuff. I don't do that. I

00:06:16.740 mean, I know it's like better for the environment in some ways, but it's also, it's not exactly a

00:06:21.900 cut and dry things i i'm still old-fashioned books or library books or whatever but

00:06:26.580 i still prefer the paper on my fingers especially a library book because it's been through so many

00:06:34.140 hands oh yeah and just to even look when you get the kind that would have the stamps on the back

00:06:39.240 and you can even see like the dates it's been taken out like when you get a really old one i

00:06:43.540 love that yeah and uh i i try to buy used books as often as i can first obviously for the

00:06:49.760 environmental reason but also because then you get whoever read it before you like what they

00:06:55.180 underlined yeah the little notes that they make in margins those are so thrilling to me oh yeah

00:07:01.000 or when they dedicate it to someone weird in the front and they're like what was that relationship

00:07:05.480 you know I uh I ordered a second hand copy of a book of essays and when I opened it up there was

00:07:14.180 a seven of diamonds inside whoa and i look i i looked it up at the time because i was like okay

00:07:21.080 this means something and i've forgotten what it meant but like whatever the seven of diamonds

00:07:24.780 means in in cartomancy is like i was like this is exactly correct wait so that's that's that's

00:07:32.320 pentacles right diamonds is pentacles like if you yeah i spur it over i think there is some

00:07:38.580 translation between like a tarot deck and like yeah definitely playing cards yeah that's so

00:07:44.960 fascinating yeah um I haven't really found I found actually once I found a pressed marijuana leaf

00:07:50.700 inside a book that was the only thing that was weird that I ever found that's magic for sure 0.99

00:07:55.940 yes for sure so let's talk about witches sluts and feminists sure the things and the book

00:08:02.740 because this is something that we've seen so much and you quote so many amazing witches um

00:08:09.280 i want to go to one of your chapters here um one of my favorite chapters is um hex cells oh i'm

00:08:16.340 glad to hear that yeah feminism capitalism and the witch because this is something again like

00:08:21.020 and again you talk about this a lot in the book in particular in this chapter

00:08:24.780 um you know you you go to urban outfitters and sort of like check out their witch merch

00:08:31.780 And I think that this is something that the modern witch is, I don't know if struggling is the right word, but like something that we have to think about, because when we get our tools from ethical sources versus unethical sources, I think that, I mean, they're magical tools.

00:08:52.820 So we have to believe that the energy with which they were created is sort of imbued within them, right?

00:08:59.060 Absolutely. It's super important.

00:09:00.580 Yeah. So when this like witch aesthetic becomes like a mass produced in a non-ethical way, you know, with exploitation of labor, what does that mean for the products that we're buying and the witch that we are? It sounds like a rhetorical question, but I'm genuinely asking you, what does that mean for the witch that we are?

00:09:19.920 yeah i mean and then also you have the layer of that it's usually there's some element of an

00:09:25.360 appropriative practice you know they're appropriating some sort of close practice

00:09:29.120 and a lot of this like you know witchy merch sometimes you know with like selling bundles

00:09:34.800 of sage at white sage at urban outfitters or whatever um so yeah there's just there's layer

00:09:40.960 upon layer uh to think about and you know at the same time in that chapter i talk about how some

00:09:49.440 people it is somewhat of a privilege to be able to have the knowledge to know how to avoid you

00:09:56.880 know certain kinds of production cycles and know about like the abuses of capitalism and know about

00:10:05.920 cultural appropriation you know what i mean so you know that that's its own thing like where are

00:10:12.300 people learning about that you know some people don't even know these concepts yet i believe i

00:10:17.460 mean so I mean more and more now but um so yeah there are gonna always be people who come across

00:10:23.160 urban outfitters as an example perfect example and maybe they are like they buy a tarot deck

00:10:29.600 they're like oh this is weird or you know like I'm gonna be a fortune teller something like

00:10:34.000 you know at first glance to us but then maybe they do begin to study and go deeper and so

00:10:40.580 I don't know how wrong is that if they were totally unaware and then they you know enter

00:10:46.080 to the world of the occult and then educate themselves so there's like i try to think that

00:10:50.900 that's the one good thing but at the same time you know the witch i think is particularly the

00:10:57.380 witch archetype um if you follow like sylvia federici you know she sort of stands for this 1.00

00:11:04.040 like world of female subjects that you know capitalism had to do away with in order for

00:11:10.260 you know uh it to triumph so i have this page open and it's mine highlight so i'll go ahead

00:11:17.840 and read this for our listeners um sylvia federici obviously we here at missing witches

00:11:23.820 are huge fans of hers as well um sylvia federici argues the witch is again this is like triple

00:11:30.880 highlight there's like a little anyway the witch is the embodiment of a world of female

00:11:39.960 subjects that capitalism had to destroy so it does seem kind of counterintuitive if we think

00:11:47.560 of the witch like that as the witch also being this corporate entity right like you can't truly

00:11:54.480 you can't buy and sell witchcraft you can like sell the merch or the tools all day long but what

00:11:59.420 are those tools without the people who use them and you know and so yeah i think like obviously

00:12:06.540 you could get your tools from nature you don't need to go to a store at all to be a practicing

00:12:11.500 witch you know so I I know that that's something many of us know but I still think there's a lot 1.00

00:12:19.100 of baby witches who are like I have to buy everything you know right I mean I always say 0.82

00:12:24.420 like your index finger is the best magic wand that you will ever you know or the and I think

00:12:29.740 it was um Gerald Gardner was it no it was Scott Cunningham Scott Cunningham said that like the

00:12:36.080 rock that you find in the road is no different than like you know exactly the one you buy from

00:12:42.220 the shop or whatever yeah and you know I've been thinking about that with like crystals you know

00:12:45.840 for years I didn't really know about the harmful practices of you know mining for crystals that I

00:12:51.920 know about now and so I bought so many and now I'm like no more I'm not buying any more crystals as

00:12:57.800 much as I love to look at glittering things it's like you don't need any more and a lot of it is

00:13:04.940 unethical where it comes from and there's a lot of exploitation in the countries that you're you

00:13:09.700 know stealing it from basically like ripping from the ground like so I definitely agree with that

00:13:16.820 rock in the road you know yeah I think Maya Angelou said when you know better you do better

00:13:22.400 and that's definitely been my experience I for sure like you know got my first rose quartz from

00:13:27.920 ebay oh yeah you know unknown no shame there's so many embarrassing terrible things that i

00:13:35.000 did and i didn't know and and i always seek to educate myself to be better and less of a gross

00:13:40.020 person i mean so i'm hoping with this that chapter i really hope just like people would

00:13:47.440 read it and hopefully think a little bit more about you know you know what what practices have

00:13:52.180 to be in place for something to be produced ethically like who's making it like where are

00:13:56.940 the raw materials coming from what's the environmental impact all that stuff but again

00:14:01.500 it's also a privilege to have the time to go through all that and then the money to usually

00:14:04.820 buy a more expensive thing unless you're just getting it from the world around you you know

00:14:09.180 sure picking it up from the ground from the ground exactly um so yeah it's complex it is

00:14:15.700 very complex and I think there are I mean it kind of reminds me of this one story I um I became

00:14:22.120 friends with a mixed indigenous woman and she was doing um circles and she let me play her drum and

00:14:29.160 I just really felt really connected to the hand drum again you know I this line between appropriation

00:14:37.220 and appreciation I think a lot of it has to do with when you monetize yes you know so I I did

00:14:43.500 get myself a drum I did not start teaching you know shamanistic drumming I would never take

00:14:50.600 money for it but here's the thing like I felt connected to this drum so I went and I did my

00:14:54.880 research and I got my drum from a Quebec uh indigenous company I want to say tribal spirit

00:15:02.540 music I'll put it in the show notes if I'm wrong but tribal spirit music and again all of their

00:15:07.460 materials are ethically sourced and you know they do everything in the old ways and again it's run

00:15:13.700 by indigenous people so I felt good about it you know once again I'm not going out and advertising

00:15:18.700 like here comes Amy the drummer it's just my my personal practice but one of my girlfriends

00:15:25.060 who was also in the circle with me she got her drum from like a lady and it was pretty

00:15:32.320 you know she like saw the picture and it was like oh like and so she she ordered it from this lady 1.00

00:15:40.620 and then like she had to hunt the woman down and chase her down she didn't send it to her when she

00:15:47.020 finally sent it to her it didn't come with a beater what you know and so for me I'm kind of

00:15:52.640 like well that's what you get and and you know I said that to my girlfriend I was like well you

00:15:59.440 know like because mine is is imperfectly shaped it's not a perfect circle it's like and they sent

00:16:06.020 it to me literally like within days with like a beautiful note oh you know hoping that yeah yeah

00:16:11.940 And so I think that there's like its own reward when you have an ethical practice.

00:16:17.900 Yes, yes, absolutely.

00:16:19.660 And your money is going to support people that you support, you know, and want to support,

00:16:25.100 et cetera.

00:16:25.720 So yeah, absolutely.

00:16:27.360 When it's possible, that is the goal.

00:16:29.980 So let's go back to this Sylvia Federici quote, the embodiment of the world of female subjects 0.99

00:16:35.700 that capitalism had to destroy. 0.97

00:16:37.540 So we can think of tons of examples of this.

00:16:40.020 The first one that pops into my mind is the nurse, the doctor, the medicine woman.

00:16:48.980 So, you know, like the book, Witches, Midwives and Nurses.

00:16:51.840 Absolutely.

00:16:52.740 It's, you know, my go-to for that.

00:16:54.540 I recommend it all the time. 0.85

00:16:56.240 But in your book, one of my favorite sort of this witch had to be destroyed is the sexual, the sexuality of sexual woman. 0.98

00:17:07.760 Oh, yeah. Or the sacred whore or all those. Yes, I was going to say the sacred whore being wanted. And then you're talking about the Maleficarum, where all witchcraft comes from carnal lust, which is in women, insatiable. 1.00

00:17:24.300 so we have these contrary ideas where like women are bad because they're sexual but then we have 0.94

00:17:30.740 this flip side of like well women are prudes and it's our job to like protect ourselves from sex 0.94

00:17:37.040 crazy men you know who will attack us if our shirt is our skirt is too short well that's the 0.99

00:17:42.480 modern view you know back then we're talking like 15th century it was that women were closer to

00:17:48.500 satan and more likely to stray from that path and more likely to corrupt men so how do you think

00:17:54.540 that dichotomy got flipped you know that's a really interesting question and i i don't know

00:18:00.500 the historiography of that and i think it just it's just like a pick and choose which you know

00:18:08.640 which uh viewpoint is easier to employ to control uh women or female sexuality right it's like one

00:18:16.540 stopped working or one got overused i don't know they're like okay the witch hunts are over we we

00:18:20.480 did that now let's pick something i don't know that's a really interesting question i wish i

00:18:26.200 had a more scholarly answer for you but yeah um i i find that fascinating too because but you know

00:18:33.080 we are still there's still so much stigma against sexual women or sex workers and like the connection 0.99

00:18:40.920 between femininity and sexuality today and the like the evil depravity of of you know sexual 1.00

00:18:46.680 women so that still persists too but then there is that other side like you said that like women 0.99

00:18:52.080 don't like sex and like it's men who are you know these yeah obviously these are just like 0.98

00:18:57.460 total ridiculous caricatures and like school girls can't wear tank tops yes the flight of 0.99

00:19:03.540 their shoulders makes men right right the boys will stop studying and just like you know burn 0.80

00:19:09.780 the school down yeah but this is one of the things I love about about both of your books that I read

00:19:15.200 um is that you have this like historical and contemporary viewpoints and then you you find

00:19:22.680 ways to link them like you talk about the witch hunt and then you talk about the Isle of Vista

00:19:28.420 shooter and sort of like um connect the things that he said before he went on his murder rampage

00:19:35.820 to the witch hunts can you talk about that a little bit yeah I mean that specifically or just

00:19:39.440 like the connection between past and present both okay um yeah well that i love it's a shooter

00:19:44.340 was one of many examples of misogynistic extremists you know um who like or incels

00:19:53.340 you know etc um who just bring up this idea of um that the ownership of female bodies and of

00:20:02.380 expecting female sexuality to be handed to you and you know women as property and all that that

00:20:08.460 persists since the times of the witch hunts and long before that. So there's so many ways to

00:20:14.780 connect these two time periods. And I know it's dangerous too. And I'm well aware that like I have

00:20:20.680 friends who are strict historians that warn me, you know, against the dangers of making

00:20:25.580 too many connections. But I still think it's really important and galvanizing for us in our

00:20:33.680 current moment dealing with the sexism and the misogyny and the patriarchal culture and the,

00:20:39.180 you know, the transphobia and all that to like look to the past sometimes.

00:20:43.520 Can you explain how it's dangerous? Because for me, like making these patterns is all my brain

00:20:48.600 wants to do. Yeah, me too. I mean, from these historic, strict historian perspectives, I've

00:20:54.760 heard that, you know, they think you're each time comes so within its own context and cultural

00:21:02.040 mores and folkways and it's it's can be historically inaccurate or it can um you know

00:21:10.420 gloss over the lived experiences of people in both times by trying to say they're exact those

00:21:16.620 times are exactly alike you know i right i i i get it what they're saying but i think it's important

00:21:22.860 to obviously be as historically accurate as possible but also i think myth making or these

00:21:30.520 connections are really important to to you know uh inspiring us in our political movements and our

00:21:37.980 in our daily lives so it's like which do you wait more and i certainly wait the latter more without

00:21:44.680 sacrificing historicity as much as possible but i get it that some historians are like oh it's so

00:21:49.960 annoying when all these people try to twist the path to their their aims you know right right

00:21:56.860 Because all we have are sort of the second hand.

00:21:59.900 Yeah, exactly.

00:22:01.340 Right?

00:22:01.800 We weren't there.

00:22:02.680 No.

00:22:03.000 And it's all distorted through the lens of the victors writing the histories.

00:22:06.240 You know what I mean?

00:22:06.880 So I get that that's true.

00:22:08.520 And I've certainly read things.

00:22:09.780 I saw them one way.

00:22:10.860 And then I read deeper and was like, oh, wait, maybe it's this way.

00:22:13.900 And so I get that you can totally like not get it right, quote unquote.

00:22:18.500 But I'm never, you know, saying that like this is exactly the way the past happens.

00:22:24.280 you know it's re you know recurring now exactly the same way I'm saying there's things to draw

00:22:31.200 from these um you know episodes in history that can inform us and inspire us today and so I think

00:22:37.260 there's nothing wrong with that you know so haters be damned that'll be the subtitle for 0.96

00:22:43.520 this episode haters damn hex the haters so let's talk about witch hunt oh my goodness okay so like 0.98

00:22:51.760 i had so many travel plans for 2020 that were canceled obviously but reading your book it 0.97

00:23:00.660 really was like witch hunt specifically um it really was like as bittersweet as it was you know

00:23:07.400 yes it was like because in the book you travel you're not you're not just writing about places

00:23:15.040 you are going oh yeah and so for me reading the book was like was like going through these places

00:23:21.480 myself because your lens is this I'm using scare quotes here witch lens yeah you know to me it

00:23:28.520 really felt like the trip that I would take oh I'm so honored to hear that that is like the best

00:23:34.440 compliment ever so all the witches out here out there who are listening I really if you your

00:23:40.140 traveling bone is like aching and throbbing and vibrating I really suggest like in lieu of

00:23:46.960 traveling you know physically right um travel with kristin oh through um europe mostly western

00:23:54.560 europe it's like france germany italy italy so let's start with um one of my favorite sections

00:24:03.000 which was your tour of the vatican oh yes a witch's guide to the vatican that's all right

00:24:09.340 and that i mean that's precisely what it is obviously we think of um the vatican as being

00:24:15.100 this like holy place for catholicism and catholicism only right but in your chapter you

00:24:20.400 talk about all the little hidden and i don't want to spoil it no spoilers for the people who are

00:24:24.960 planning to read it but can you maybe choose one of the the pagan mysteries or you know something

00:24:32.480 that gave you like a very witch vibe that you found in the vatican yeah um i mean first of all

00:24:38.700 I've been a couple times and I grew up with Catholic parents, although my mom's a Catholic,

00:24:45.320 but moved on to other things, as I mentioned.

00:24:49.240 But my dad was a Catholic and is a hardcore atheist because he hates Catholicism so much. 0.99

00:24:54.340 It was always in my mind from childhood, it's like, Catholics are horrible and they killed 0.99

00:24:58.660 everybody and you know what I mean? 1.00

00:25:00.240 And so I wasn't really, I was never really thinking I would find anything witchy in the

00:25:06.440 Vatican until I really started traveling there like in my later 20s and being like sure I'm

00:25:12.820 curious you know and then I realized oh my god there's you know there's so much incredible art

00:25:18.160 there and you know you can see so many pre-Christian deities you know like lioness goddess Sekhmet and

00:25:25.460 there's Athena and who else is in there Aphrodite and there's of course there's Joan of Arc and 0.52

00:25:32.720 Catherine of Siena, but all these sort of like Christian witches, quote unquote, that, you know,

00:25:38.240 people in witchcraft communities, you know, work with in their spiritual practice, um, or have been,

00:25:43.660 you know, allied with the witch archetype by contemporary practitioners because they're

00:25:48.820 sort of groundbreaking women, you know, or femmes. So, um, God, what is my favorite thing? I mean,

00:25:56.220 there's so many like little moon and star you know circular um designs on the floor in the marble and

00:26:04.240 then like there's a satyr in um in uh saint peter's um basilica under the the papal altar there's like

00:26:14.540 a satyr space and like all kinds of little things if you're looking you'll see you're like this is 0.59

00:26:19.600 really fucking pagan in here Vatican's so pagan yeah yeah it's super witchy in there and so when 0.95

00:26:31.060 I started to see it that way I was like oh my god this is the witchiest like if you want to do witch 0.99

00:26:35.500 travel right you have to go to the Vatican which just sounds absurd to say but I don't know 0.70

00:26:41.940 yeah I mean when you when you think of you know the the witch tour and I'm forget I'm spacing out

00:26:47.600 on the name there's like i think it's is it in italy there's like a town that has sigils like

00:26:53.080 painted on all of the rooftops i don't know what city that is but i believe it yeah yeah i'll figure

00:26:58.400 it out and i'll put it in the show notes awesome i'd love to know yeah my my sister traveled there

00:27:03.500 and sent me about a thousand pictures she by the way her birthday is next month and she will be

00:27:08.280 getting a copy of witch hunt for her birthday yeah because she unlike myself has actually been

00:27:14.300 to most of the places that you mentioned oh cool I think she and I will have a very different

00:27:18.600 experience and for those of you listening at home whether you're super well traveled like my sister

00:27:24.140 is or like moderately okay traveled like I am I feel like you're you're really going to get

00:27:29.160 something out of the book either way whether you've been to these places or not yeah I hope

00:27:33.140 so I definitely wrote it with that intention you know yeah definitely when we think of the witch

00:27:38.020 tour you know of um europe or britain you know stonehenge and like of course and um so how

00:27:45.820 how important was it to you to to include the vatican in there from your personal like

00:27:52.700 definition of what a witch is and what a witch does well i think a lot of people don't think of

00:27:59.680 well let's say a lot of americans don't think of italy when you think of witch hunts and you

00:28:05.040 mostly people are thinking of England, maybe Scotland, and then maybe Germany. I feel like

00:28:11.340 those are the ones we know about. So I also started in Italy because I wanted to link

00:28:16.780 the history of how even witch hunting kind of started and the idea of black magic practiced

00:28:24.620 by women. And it ties into the ancient world and ancient Rome and all that. So I had to dig back

00:28:31.240 into you know italy's past and so it's also the history of the catholic church is is tied into

00:28:37.400 this and christianity right because even you don't have the term pagan until christians come around

00:28:42.680 and then you know everyone who's not christian is sort of termed pagan as a you know disparaging

00:28:50.640 like term so yeah i think in the west we really love to label things yes yeah so yeah i didn't

00:28:58.200 start out saying oh my god the Vatican has to be in here but the more I was you know tracing the

00:29:02.920 lineage of this figure we call the witch that then became part of this you know horrible episode in

00:29:10.080 history in the early modern era I just realized that the Vatican was a big part of that and people

00:29:15.280 often still think it's only the Catholic Church that was involved in witch persecution or whatever

00:29:20.740 you know I think there's a lot of misinformation about that so I really wanted to also include

00:29:25.380 the Vatican to say, yeah, of course, you know, the Inquisition and the Inquisitors started

00:29:30.040 a lot of the witch persecution, but it wasn't exactly how we think it was. And, you know,

00:29:35.420 Protestants like really picked up the ball and ran with it. So there's not one group or 0.98

00:29:44.880 religious sect to blame here. Yeah. And I think ultimately as well, it really ties back into

00:29:54.760 um capitalism like my my father's hungarian so i've done a little bit of research into the

00:30:01.620 you know hungarian folklore and so on and one of the funniest stories that i read

00:30:05.800 was that um the witch hunts in hungary the witches that were killed also just happened to be

00:30:12.760 like the richest landowners so when those witches quote-unquote witches yeah

00:30:19.160 then all of that land became you know was was turned over to someone else it sounds

00:30:24.540 about right yep so we see this happening like in all different ways how how finances and witch

00:30:33.020 hunting go hand in hand oh absolutely I mean um there were so many cases I read about where it

00:30:39.980 was so clear it was just a land grab or a cash grab by the local community accusing whomever

00:30:45.800 of witchcraft you know and the eat the rich part of me is like yeah

00:30:50.500 but then we see how easily this can be yeah you know turned turned around and you talk about so

00:30:59.340 again like one of my favorite things about your writing is this like past present future um you

00:31:04.600 know play that you have like i'm constantly like every time i another witch that you name comes up

00:31:12.580 that i haven't heard of i've got like this list now like a dozen potential uh subjects for the

00:31:18.300 missing witches podcast oh that's awesome i mean my my number one goal a is to like honor the

00:31:23.780 victims of the witch hunts but also to amplify the voices of these people that are often forgotten

00:31:28.540 or you know like not heard from anymore after their terrible deaths so yeah i'm i feel like

00:31:35.900 that's part of my job part of why i'm here on you know earth right now to sort of you know think

00:31:42.080 about these people and connect with their story you know and share it if I can yeah and I think

00:31:49.080 you know that that's what a lot of us are doing we're just like doing the best we can yeah you're

00:31:53.300 doing it clearly but even you know even those of us who don't write books or have podcasts you know

00:31:59.940 just by learning these people's stories I feel that we're honoring them whether we share them

00:32:04.960 in public or not absolutely even a moment of reading about them and thinking and imagining

00:32:09.300 you know they're alive still their their memories are alive yeah it's like that old saying like you

00:32:14.280 you die twice like first when your body goes and then the last time someone says your name

00:32:18.940 oh yes you know and so you're like we are quite literally based on that old saying keeping these

00:32:25.320 people alive absolutely and that's wonderful if i perished that way you know i would

00:32:30.300 want people to keep me alive too so speaking of amplification but in another sense

00:32:37.460 I definitely see you and I'm going to guess you see yourself based on how you present yourself

00:32:43.040 as a rock and roll witch you're correct can you talk to me about that like long-standing

00:32:51.300 relationship between rock and roll and the occult oh yeah I mean I think that my occultic

00:32:58.160 interests you know besides like the practices I told you about that were kind of taught to me

00:33:03.340 by my mom or I was around like but that wasn't like the occult you know the history of the

00:33:08.140 occult sciences and stuff I learned all that shit when I was like listening to Led Zeppelin in like 0.59

00:33:12.400 sixth grade and I mean I had much older brothers like 20 years older so I always liked super old 0.66

00:33:18.580 like 60s 70s music and then 80s but that's pretty much where I stopped I was like 90s and later who

00:33:24.900 cares so like love classic rock and you know we have that like late 60s 70s occult revival

00:33:31.820 and you know bands like coven and i was a black sabbath and you know i was watching some

00:33:37.060 documentary on led zeppelin in sixth grade and they were talking about alistair crowley and you

00:33:41.420 know jimmy page like owning his house and i was like what is this you know it's just being so

00:33:47.020 mysterious and fascinating um so that definitely like a million other people you know like

00:33:55.180 sparked an interest and i was i always wanted to be like a music journalist or just in bands and

00:34:01.760 like that was my whole thing for like most of my 20s and then finally I had this big shift later

00:34:06.840 and I you know shifted what I was doing in my work but like rock and roll is I still think like

00:34:13.720 my religion you know I can understand that for sure yeah I find it like a lot of the magical

00:34:21.160 practices I do involve like devotionals with some sort of music and it's usually heavy like

00:34:27.540 occult themed you know metal or classic rock or whatever and I'm okay with that even if that's

00:34:34.440 like super cliche like I feel like there's a lot of power and energy in music and that's where I

00:34:40.980 can like channel source and feel the magic of the world like in those vibrations like going to live

00:34:45.560 shows oh you know I've done all kinds of stuff just to go around the world to see shows live

00:34:50.180 because it's just like that is the holiest moment to me oh I was I was just talking to a girlfriend

00:34:56.960 friend of mine the other day and she is not a witch she would laugh if you called her witch

00:35:01.020 she's like super like and I don't want to say that witches are not this but she thinks that

00:35:05.960 they are not this she's very logical and she doesn't see how you can be logical in a witch

00:35:10.980 at the same time which again is like part of the work that I'm doing is yeah you can be a logical

00:35:16.020 but we were talking about you know live shows especially in the context of 2020 where we're

00:35:22.080 missing them and for us where it is church we're missing our church yeah and she was saying despite

00:35:29.380 her very staunch you know anti-spiritualist atheism she admits that you know certain shows

00:35:36.540 have been the closest to religious experience that she absolutely like i saw iggy pop when i was like

00:35:43.520 uh 17 and he was like doing the crowd surfing and like and it's never going to be the same as back

00:35:50.040 in the day like i wish i could go back in time and be there in the 70s and 80s but i can't so

00:35:55.080 anyway i'll take what i can get but i still you know i definitely have seen so many shows where

00:36:00.020 i felt like this you know this it doesn't get better than this and and sometimes those feelings

00:36:05.120 that's that collective magic is more powerful than any spell work i've done with a coven with

00:36:08.980 myself with anything right i have manifested stuff but you know thinking of it during a show

00:36:14.840 like sort of meditating on things during shows and I it definitely came to fruition for me so

00:36:20.720 that that is another kind of spellcraft that is so powerful not even talked about that much you know

00:36:25.860 yeah well this is what I was going to say that I don't know if you're working on your fourth book

00:36:30.240 right now but I would like for your book to fourth book to be about this and I will tell you exactly

00:36:35.560 why please again one of the reasons that Risa and I started this project is because we were reading

00:36:41.680 books and you know passing them back and forth and you know whatever talking about what we had

00:36:45.700 learned and what we had found and there's this one book in particular called season of the witch 1.00

00:36:50.500 oh of course i read it yeah yeah did you notice that there were no fucking women in it yeah 0.60

00:36:55.740 sorry i was just like i i peter biebergal is the author and like he's awesome and i totally love 0.89

00:37:03.900 that book but i agree there needs to be that one about the femininity that is so vital or or even

00:37:13.960 just like that includes you know because i i i was reading the book and again like i was really

00:37:19.600 enjoying learning about like jimmy page like you were saying and like alice or crowley's buying his

00:37:24.020 house and all of that but i just i kept expecting to find because i know like for example you know

00:37:31.120 Jim Morrison had that like witch wedding to that you know woman and so I think that

00:37:37.380 oftentimes it was probably women who were bringing these ideas to Jim Morrison to Jimmy Page but they

00:37:44.200 oh totally but who were they you know yeah I mean and sometimes like I love Pamela Debar and like 0.99

00:37:51.260 wow the groupie culture and all that and like those are like the witches of you know that's a

00:37:56.480 fast you know you're saying this yes maybe this does need to be my next book I really hope so

00:38:04.840 like if I could facilitate it anyway wow you know what I'm just gonna say look people want it and

00:38:10.580 by that people I mean you so I'm just yeah you tell your publishing house listen people have

00:38:16.140 really been because that's the book that I want to read oh I want to read that too and there's

00:38:22.400 some books like you're right but it's not the whole like story and you know jinx dawson um

00:38:28.200 designed the sigil for my old website sluttest like i definitely wish there were more discussions

00:38:35.260 of like the witch aspect of rock and roll and i you know i have that chapter in which is less

00:38:40.880 feminist which is like the mini version of that book exactly and that's like i need that expanded

00:38:46.280 to 200 300 pages okay thank you for that input you have inspired me today so I appreciate it

00:38:54.120 okay I I have one more before I will let you go back to your inspiration and your next book

00:39:00.340 writing your next book start today okay because you you did say yeah mentioned someone who designed

00:39:06.240 a sigil for your website and I can't remember which book it's in but you um you liken tattoos

00:39:14.840 to protection sigils yes yes of course can you talk about that for our tattooed or our non-tattooed

00:39:20.200 listeners oh yeah i mean i've designed sigils like for certain purposes and had them tattooed on me

00:39:26.380 so it's like you're you know bringing it into being and on your skin obviously um it's any

00:39:33.600 charged symbol just is certainly going to go deeper literally when you're tattooing it on

00:39:39.640 yourself right and um yeah I feel like I know a lot of witches who get their part of their

00:39:47.300 practices like sacred tattoos or you know and part of the ritual of getting the tattoo you know

00:39:53.520 is is a whole other thing that goes along with it um especially like the artist like I know

00:39:59.780 multiple artists who are witches you know tattoo artists who are witches and then they they sort

00:40:04.000 of help midwife that process into being so like they're they're conjuring that I just they're

00:40:10.140 channeling that you likening the tattooist to to midwifery or like the doula of protection who's

00:40:18.060 like walking you through this process because for sure it is I mean it there's pain there's

00:40:24.680 patience yeah patience and blood and and a financial sacrifice that you have to make

00:40:30.120 presuming you're paying your tattoo artist oh my god everyone pay your tattoo artist

00:40:33.600 tip your tattoo artist but yeah so you're making these sacrifices yes it really is like i really

00:40:41.420 think it is like a modern and it's not modern i mean people have been doing like very ancient

00:40:47.020 ritualistic and and again to to invoke power yeah and so yeah to me that this is i mean some people

00:40:56.760 are more flippant about it some people are like i just got it because it was pretty and i have no

00:41:00.620 problem with that if you just want to adorn yourself oh yeah i have some tattoos that are

00:41:04.560 just like i don't know i just like thought it looked cool so i'm not like saying everything

00:41:09.720 i have is like sacred for by any means i think all of my tattoos are sacred however they're not

00:41:17.080 all good that's a good way to put it yeah i think some of my shitty tattoos are some of my favorite

00:41:24.100 yes as my old tattoo artist used to say like nobody likes someone with all perfect tattoos 0.89

00:41:29.200 no because again I think that like this like there's something dirty and gritty not dirty

00:41:36.660 my god that was the wrong word please everyone clean needles clean stations yeah I don't mean

00:41:42.440 dirty but dirty is the word gritty I guess about rock and roll about getting tattoos there's like

00:41:48.760 um i mean they were outlawed you know there's an outlaw sort of like illegality or sort of like

00:41:55.660 subversive you know nature to all of that stuff yeah and so for me like it really is a spiritual

00:42:03.080 practice getting tattooed for sure and that's why i i mean i haven't had a walk-in since i was a

00:42:08.820 teenager yeah me neither i really i feel like you know first of all this is someone who's going to

00:42:14.500 be like over my body for hours um so for just that reason alone i need to be comfortable with

00:42:21.580 them but again like when you're carrying someone's art around yeah life like i feel like that's such

00:42:27.540 a major connection it's it really is yeah yeah i got one tattoo where the artist marigold santos

00:42:35.140 hi goldie um you know she and i hadn't really thought about it this way before but she was

00:42:40.200 like thank you for carrying my art i love that yeah and i was like wow you know like that is

00:42:46.460 amazing like i have i have an original marigold santos that's gonna be on my body forever and i

00:42:53.120 think that that's beautiful that is really cool i have like one tattoo that was designed by a friend

00:42:57.540 and i'm always like oh i hope we stay good friends because that would be upsetting you know a great

00:43:04.360 way to end a friendship supernaturally is to get matching tattoos i found that this is just like

00:43:09.560 You know what? I've heard, I've, I know people say that,

00:43:11.960 but I have one friend and we have three matching tattoos and it's still going

00:43:15.840 strong. So, you know, I don't know. Fingers crossed.

00:43:21.680 I believe in us. We're going to be together forever.

00:43:24.640 Yeah. One of my friends got a tattoo that said forever lucky.

00:43:28.800 And as soon as he, as soon as he got it, I was like, if I got that tattoo,

00:43:32.340 I would walk out of the shop and get hit by a car.

00:43:34.140 Oh my God. That is so terrible and also funny.

00:43:38.460 to me you're just asking for trouble yeah I wouldn't want that or like a relationship tattoo

00:43:47.740 like I don't actually have any of those like that that seems like a death knell to me you know my

00:43:53.460 husband before we were married he tattooed my name on his chest oh okay so it worked out it worked

00:43:58.880 out and it was like a beautiful gesture he's not a heavily tattooed guy I think that was like his

00:44:03.160 second tattoo wow that's an even bigger deal but to me like and again because i'm like a feminist

00:44:08.800 i think i i had a little bit more of a problem with like branding myself with a man's name

00:44:15.000 so i like many of my tattoos are a tribute to our relationship in some way or another but it's just

00:44:22.720 not like his name the name i totally get that and i i don't think i could have uh a name anyone's

00:44:29.240 name of any gender on me i don't know that feels like i'm me but symbols and all kinds of devotional

00:44:35.420 things i'm totally all for that i also refused to change my name when we got married so he he knows

00:44:40.820 this is me so again i look very forward to um your fourth book um i'm so glad you decided it

00:44:53.520 for me and you know i gotta say i look forward to your book i pre-ordered it oh thank you so much

00:44:58.300 it's so well you know this you're a book witch it's like it's terrifying and thrilling yes so

00:45:03.660 my next book purchase will be cat call and in the meantime i highly suggest that our readers go out

00:45:10.740 and if you um want to learn about um specifically you know feminism and sex magic and that kind of 0.97

00:45:21.260 thing start with witches sluts uh and witches sluts feminists i always try to put an and in there 0.97

00:45:26.300 know me too and if you have that itchy travel and you can't travel then like today order yourself a 0.97

00:45:34.500 copy of witch hunt and go traveling with kristin i really can't recommend it enough oh thank you

00:45:39.240 so much you're the best thank you so much to you the rock and roll witch may you take your place

00:45:44.720 on the forever altar of the rock and roll occult hell yeah yeah and hex the haters now before i

00:45:53.340 officially say goodbye to you do you have like what is your grand message to the world that you

00:45:57.400 want to leave with the missing witches as your final parting thought I guess you know the journey

00:46:03.820 never ends so dot dot dot yeah I think that's what it is you know this is an ongoing I think

00:46:13.760 everyone knows this who gets into the occult or witchcraft but like be ready for the ride of a

00:46:19.460 lifetime. Thank you so much, Kristen. Thank you so much. What an awesome, I can't wait to meet you

00:46:26.740 in person someday when we have like our parties. You're living in New York? Yes. Okay, I'll call

00:46:34.140 you as soon as I'm allowed to cross the border. Awesome, I will be there for the hang. Thank you

00:46:40.400 so much and once again to the Missing Witches Coven, Kristen Soleil, that's S-O-L-L-E, accent

00:46:47.200 take you e and go and buy these books they're fantastic bye kristen bye thank you so much that

00:46:53.620 was amazing you must be a witch don't forget to go to foxglovefarm.com and use offer code

00:47:02.140 missing witches

Missing Witches - October 28, 2020

WF Kristen Sollée： Witch Hunt

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