00:01:16.960i don't know who's on the line today but i'm glad you're here welcome home to the missing
00:01:22.800witches podcast and welcome especially to i feel like we're friends we've hung out once friend of
00:01:30.620the podcast liz kelly author of home to her and and like kind of conjurer of the home to her
00:01:41.780community and maker of a safe space for asking questions about divine feminine and writer
00:01:49.040and seeker. Welcome. I'm so happy that you are now here on our home base to get to talk about
00:01:56.700your work. Thanks for coming. No, thanks for having me. And yes, I'm going to call you a
00:02:01.420friend. I feel like you and Amy are the cool girls. Like I know you're not really a clicky
00:02:05.640kind of crew but I'm like oh yay the cool girls want to be my friend so yeah yay oh wow I don't
00:02:13.560think we're cool you are absolutely my version of cool like whatever that means to anybody else
00:02:21.940you are very cool in my book yeah likewise likewise it's really nice just to get to hang
00:02:28.300out last time we spoke the one thing i remember in particular is you were in the process of
00:02:36.300writing this book yeah and you were like kind of deep in the work like it felt like you had
00:02:42.280your elbows deep in the work of like unpacking because writing a book like really challenges
00:02:47.880you to unpack a lot of your own assumptions bump bump against your own ignorance like do all this
00:02:53.980research to try to not sound crazy. I don't know. That's me speaking from my experience.0.89
00:02:59.780How was the rest of that process for you? It's in the world. It's beautiful. It's alive. It's
00:03:04.560on woman craft. Yeah, it was intense. And that was the second version of the book. I had written1.00
00:03:11.060the whole thing and shopped it around and had not gotten much interest and then had put it aside
00:03:17.140right before the pandemic started. And then after the pandemic began, I came back to it
00:03:24.740eventually and saw right away that it was not... Good enough sounds very harsh, so I don't want
00:03:31.780to say that, but it wasn't what I wanted to put in the world. And I was suddenly so grateful that
00:03:36.360it had not gotten any traction. And I think you know from writing a book, I don't know if you
00:03:42.480feel the same way, but there's a permanence to it, right? Like it's done. It is in print. So
00:03:48.580whatever I put in print for me, it had to be an integrity. Like it's got to, even if I change and
00:03:55.700I will change, right? Like hopefully I'll be totally different person in a few years, but
00:03:59.900that I could look at that and say, okay, well, that was an integrity with where I was at that
00:04:04.860moment in my life. I was as honest and as inclusive and as vulnerable and all the things as I could
00:04:10.500be. And so, yes, when I talked to you, I was in the midst of like, oh gosh, how honest and accurate
00:04:17.040can I get? And it was excruciating a little bit, you know, like trying to really, really nail that.
00:04:25.280But in the, and I don't remember exactly what we talked, but you're right. I was, I was very in it
00:04:29.700at that point. But in the end, I, I felt really good about where it ended up. And I feel really
00:04:35.600good about where it ended up. And I think even if five years from now or 10 years from now or
00:04:41.460whatever, I look back and I'm like, that doesn't really represent where I stand anymore. I think
00:04:46.060that I could stand really confidently and say, this is why I put those words down. This is why
00:04:50.520at that moment in time, this felt like the right way to describe what I'm feeling and what I'm
00:04:55.760seeing. Yeah. I so relate to so much of that emotional journey. We always end up quoting,
00:05:04.760Amy wrote an episode about Mama Lola. And Mama Lola says of her biography that she hates the
00:05:11.140book because she always changes and the book always stays the same. Yes. And I don't hate
00:05:19.040our book at all. In fact, I still really, really love it. I love your book. But I mean, I'm learning
00:05:26.040stuff all the time. And there are things I look back at that and I'm like, shit, I wish I knew0.98
00:05:30.460that then like I hate I really would have done something there you know and and even this this0.63
00:05:37.880next one is like it's on its way out the door and then there's things that you're I feel like I wish
00:05:42.420I could just continuously rewrite the words forever I know well you know one thing that
00:05:48.380came to me right before I started working on the version that actually went into print we my family
00:05:54.000and I we moved from California to Virginia and we spent eight months living in an RV and traveling
00:05:58.340across the country. While we did that, we homeschooled our kids for a year. And what I
00:06:03.960realized, oh, it was just the most amazing experience in so many different ways. I learned
00:06:10.220a ton from that. But one of the things that really was impressed upon me is that, well,
00:06:15.840you know, I was living in California. I was living in the Bay Area of California, which I don't know
00:06:19.240if that means anything to your listeners, but it's a pretty progressive bubble. Like it's a,
00:06:23.400little bubble. And I get out of that and I start to see the rest of the country. And what I realize
00:06:30.840is that there are a myriad versions of the United States and people are at all different places on
00:06:38.980their journeys. We're not all having the same conversation at the same time. And so when I
00:06:43.920think about writing and my words, maybe that's giving me a past, but I'm like, okay, well,
00:06:49.060maybe there's someone else who, even if I have evolved five years down the road, 10 years down
00:06:53.220the road whatever there's somebody who will be at that place where I was and these words will find
00:06:57.460them at that time and it will be what it'll be what they need I don't know that's that's what
00:07:02.660I tell myself yes that's so true and it's so interesting to think like there isn't just one
00:07:09.740time unfolding no so many yes multiplicities yeah and so you're in Virginia are you writing
00:07:22.880another book are you is that part of the thing for you are you like did you say what you wanted
00:07:28.260to say how's it affecting your interviews how's it affecting your relationship with the divine
00:07:34.560does it change yeah it it does I don't I'm not writing another book yet I have ideas that come
00:07:43.520and some of them feel like they might be mine you know like they start to coalesce enough from like
00:07:49.960okay this has got the energetic push behind it this might be mine to bring into the world but
00:07:54.000it doesn't not right now i think for for me coming to virginia one of the one of the messages that i
00:08:00.380got when i got here was something to the effect of and i i can't i don't know how i got it from
00:08:07.760the land i got it from somewhere it was when you can stand on the land of your ancestors
00:08:12.540and know you belong, then you will be fully free. And so my people settled in Virginia,
00:08:20.500in some cases, almost 400 years ago. I have ancestors that were at Jamestown, which is one
00:08:26.800of the first settlements in the United States. And I have really, and I wrestled with this in
00:08:32.060the book, and it's been a wrestling for me, you know, as a white woman of British and Scottish
00:08:37.560descent mostly, you know, who's been here for many years. There's, I have more than seven
00:08:43.120generations on the soil. There is no homeland for me to go to. This is home. And so I have to take
00:08:48.580that with all of it, right? The, my ancestors who enslaved people, my ancestors who received
00:08:54.180land grants that pushed indigenous people off of their land, my ancestors who fought
00:08:58.300in the civil war and the revolutionary war. It's all part of me. And I think part of my
00:09:05.800living in California, I needed to go there so I could feel a little bit freer, so I could get
00:09:13.240out from under the super conservative baggage with which I was raised. And then I think I
00:09:19.460needed to come back to claim my right to be here. So there feels like there's some sort of
00:09:25.840ancestral healing, like it was necessary for me to be here, even though I think the West Coast is
00:09:31.580like in my blood. And then the other thing I would say about being in Virginia, I really wanted more
00:09:38.200of a relationship with the land on a daily basis. And California is beautiful, so beautiful. And
00:09:44.260there's just a lot of people there. It's very densely populated. And I found it hard to deeply
00:09:51.600to get to a quiet place with the land. And I have that now where I live in Virginia. And so what I've
00:09:57.220notice in myself is just a settling in my nervous system, just a quiet peace that descends. And so
00:10:06.340I'm super, super grateful for that. That work of doing that generational healing, what does that
00:10:13.160look like for you, do you think, in the coming years in terms of getting into right relation
00:10:19.160with indigenous people whose land we're on in terms of reparations, slavery reparations?
00:10:27.040Is there a piece of your work that looks forward to, because I do think each of us,
00:10:34.500where we land in our moment, we can do healing work. It's part of our responsibility in whatever
00:10:42.020way that that starts to look like. Is that something that's on your mind?
00:10:45.540it's definitely on my mind i don't know that i have felt into clearly what that means
00:10:52.060in terms of like a like a local presence like me in this locality um i think of it in terms of
00:11:01.720energetics of my presence being here like what that what that means and and then i think
00:11:07.600from a work perspective i have a great passion about the subject of the divine feminine and
00:11:14.920the sacred feminine. And I think there's lots of opportunities there for what I consider remedial
00:11:21.720education. There's so much information that none of us learned. And part of that remedial education,
00:11:27.960I think, is being responsible in the ways in which I communicate about it. I host the Home
00:11:34.560to Her podcast in the guests that I choose to bring on. And even if guests may not want to be
00:11:40.440a conversation because the sacred feminine has not always been a safe space for people who don't0.70
00:11:45.640identify as white women. Like if they don't feel safe in that space, that doesn't give me a path
00:11:50.840to not make my conversation and my perspective intersectional. And so I think right now what has
00:11:58.820come clear being here in this land, and you know, it's debatable, right? If it's a period of time
00:12:03.980or location or maturity, like all those things, who knows. But it's this desire to do more,
00:12:10.800to create more opportunities for people to learn about the sacred feminine. And not just for me,
00:12:16.700but to create, you know, my work has always felt like being a catalyst and amplifying the voices
00:12:21.120that are already there. And so what I'm really interested in is helping to bring forward
00:12:26.180more voices who are going to give different perspectives on the sacred feminine, not just
00:12:30.360through the podcast, but through teaching, actual teaching, people who can bring the history and
00:12:37.060they've got that rooted piece of history, they can also bring an embodied perspective and an
00:12:41.720intuitive perspective. Because for me, the sacred feminine is really tied up with that. She doesn't
00:12:45.800live in the head. And they can bring an intersectional perspective. We're not going1.00
00:12:49.680to have any conversations if you're not going to weave in white supremacy, colonialism, all the
00:12:54.540ways in which these stories weave together. So that is, that is what I see. And will that
00:13:00.840translate into work like in this physical space? I don't know yet. I'm not sure. It'd be really
00:13:06.640cool if it did. But one of the beautiful things about having, I have a group on Facebook with
00:13:11.840lots of people from all over the world and I have the podcast. It's beautiful to have
00:13:16.200a broader reach and to also know that there are people all over the place who want to learn about
00:13:21.820that so that's kind of where my focus is right now and how are you thinking about the divine
00:13:27.580these days I know I mentioned that earlier it's something I think about when I think about your
00:13:32.160work I guess because for me it shifts all the time yeah no I was definitely very atheist but
00:13:39.680talked to trees you know like once I left my my childhood religion or even before but
00:13:45.600And sometimes I feel really strongly connected to a feminine energy, sometimes to a masculine energy.
00:13:53.340Mostly it's just like a collectiveness or a multiplicity or sort of a non-binary-ness.
00:14:00.520How does your work, I don't know, how are you feeling about that these days?0.99
00:14:04.960Yeah, I think when I started working, just learning about the sacred feminine,
00:14:11.160it felt kind of like replacement of this masculine, you know, it was just like a healing
00:14:16.920thing I needed to, it had been like, I had been cut off from that. I needed it. I don't think it
00:14:21.520ever skewed into dogma. That's not really my thing. But I do think that for a little while,
00:14:27.760perhaps because I had, you know, I was raised in a conservative Christian tradition, you know,
00:14:32.840maybe in my head, I was like, I've stumbled onto something that is better or more important,
00:14:36.620you know or whatever like the stories we tell about how we are superior and then the longer
00:14:41.920that i learned the more i realized like how shape-shifting that energy is like we have
00:14:47.440called the sacred or whatever i put this name the sacred feminine it's not it's not one thing
00:14:53.080you know like you this can be embodied in it's in so many different ways it was also an entry point
00:14:59.560into understanding the relationship that i this deep profound relationships that i've had with
00:15:06.600nature since I was a kid. It gave me a name for it. I think if I had to label myself something
00:15:13.680now or what my practice would be, it would be closer to animism. And sacred feminine is my
00:15:19.300work. And she, you know, one of the things that, and I know she's been on your podcast too, Sophie
00:15:23.580Strand, amazing, right? Yeah. She, she was on mine too. And she said that she thought of the divine
00:15:30.540feminine as a portal. She doesn't throw anything out. You know, she doesn't get rid of anything.
00:15:34.920We just like melt it all together, right? Like it all goes into this fabulous compost yeast. And so the divine feminine can be a portal into a different way of understanding. And I think at this point, I would say that's what she has been for me and a really powerful portal.
00:15:53.620And maybe I still pray to a mother, but I think it's animism.
00:15:59.900I think that that is my relationship is with the trees in my backyard and the, I don't know, the dead hawk we just found back there a couple days ago and all the magic of nature.
00:16:13.600What was it like finding the dead hawk?
00:16:15.320I've found two dead falcons when I've been like alone in the woods before and had been the one
00:16:25.200until they had like both slammed into a window in an unoccupied cottage and been like the one to
00:16:30.340take them and try to deal with. And it's something I think about a lot. I don't think everything
00:16:35.060that happens around me is a direct symbolic communication for me. But sometimes I do wonder,
00:16:42.940you know geez these wild birds of prey are are losing their lives right in front of me
00:16:50.040I don't know did you think about it was it impactful for you I did I will say my child
00:16:55.000found it first and so I I do I do exactly what you're talking about where I and my answer is
00:17:00.660always yes and this has nothing to do with me this has something to do with me like I'm just
00:17:04.820going to hold both of those things at the same time right this hawk had a journey it became food
00:17:09.240for something else. Like this has absolutely nothing to do with me. And it happened on land
00:17:13.860that we tend and steward. And so therefore there is some meaning there. You know, what really came
00:17:19.480to me was what a privilege that a wild thing felt that it could die in my proximity and presence.
00:17:27.480I don't know what a privilege to be able to see that. And I also felt like, you know, because I
00:17:31.760used to read bad omens into everything, you know, like I was just very fearful, like, oh no, this
00:17:35.900means something terrible this is you know because hawk is it is an important messenger to me i feel
00:17:41.460like they often show up at times important times but no i if anything it's just transition and
00:17:46.520transformation yeah i wrestle with it i i sort of feel like geez if there weren't these buildings
00:17:54.760here with these great big windows these folks wouldn't wouldn't be flying headlong into them
00:18:01.000breaking their neck so I sort of feel like a representative of humanity at that time like oh
00:18:05.960brother yes well in this case it was way down in the woods I mean I don't know if it was nothing
00:18:11.540to do with that ill it was attacked it clearly became food for something else so I yeah it's
00:18:18.100hard it's hard to know yeah I know what you mean about reading bad omens and everything I think
00:18:23.020there's part of a if you have a brain that's interested in the unseen world and maybe that's
00:18:29.840like on a neurodiverse spectrum where you're sort of always drawn to a magical interpretation of
00:18:35.760things or to feeling a relationship with spirit in the world or if you're questioning about divine
00:18:42.140you're questioning the meaning probably sometimes that that slides into seeing bad omens yes that
00:18:50.760might those two things might kind of come together well I will say that when we made the decision to
00:18:56.920leave California and move into the RV. And we didn't know we were moving to Virginia. We were
00:19:00.880just going to spend time on the road and figure out where our next home was going to be.
00:19:43.160It just landed on the path and died.0.95
00:19:45.860And, you know, I think, and again, if you don't have to just look at the divine feminine,
00:19:50.280you can find these stories everywhere.
00:19:51.460But like this whole, if we think about life in terms of cycles and death and rebirth, there was an absolute death that was happening, like a form of being in a way of looking at the world.
00:20:02.760And I was leaving this place that felt safe for me to evolve into this version of who I am now.
00:20:08.300I'd never felt safe to do that where I grew up.
00:20:12.720I was leaving the house that I brought both of my babies home to.
00:20:15.960like there was a lot that was dying and and that needed to die like lots that me I needed to let
00:20:22.960go up to become whatever was gonna you know I would be next so in that way it felt totally
00:20:28.160appropriate and we buried it in the backyard and said some words and off we went can you talk more
00:20:37.040about I mean so there's so much accumulated strength in just that piece right of like
00:20:44.740having the strength enough to have gotten yourself safe to have raised those kids to have like
00:20:52.220been able to have the conversations you're having to question what you grew up in like that's so
00:20:58.100much already and then to make those choices to say okay next step the total unknown like not
00:21:06.300even you were moving to Virginia but like let's go on the road so for people who are listening
00:21:10.860who are maybe at a stage of what do I shed or how do I shed it? How do I interpret the world around
00:21:16.800me if I'm trying to make a decision into the unknown? What's your advice or what was that
00:21:21.580like for you? Or how do we do it? How do we do it, Liz? I mean, I think we just jump. I mean,
00:21:32.100I wish that I could, you know, the truth is like, I felt overwhelmed. I was terrified. It was a very,
00:21:38.400very scary thing to do not least of which because where we were living in california was so very
00:21:45.960expensive which was one of many reasons why we wanted to leave i you know hand in hand with
00:21:51.160this awakening to this understanding of the divine in a different way was my awareness of all the
00:21:57.080ways that i was participating in this capitalist system to to demonstrate that i was i had value
00:22:03.600as a woman, that if I could make money in this way and perform well, like look how tough I am,
00:22:10.120which I never was, by the way, then I will have proved something. And so when I let that go,
00:22:14.960then there's the reality of, well, now we're living in a place that we can't afford. If I
00:22:18.980want to live the way I want to live with my values, I cannot afford to be here. So we needed
00:22:24.820to go. And on top of that, though, is the realization that we cannot come back. And you
00:22:29.680never can go back, right? Like, I mean, we never really can go back. We move on. But in this case,
00:22:35.480we literally can't go back unless, you know, I, something drastically changes. Financially,
00:22:40.640we cannot go back. So that was on top of it too, is that it felt very permanent. Like if I do this,
00:22:47.400it feels very permanent. And the two images that kept coming to my mind,
00:22:52.200I would think about staying and I would think about going. You know, when I thought about
00:22:56.860staying, I had this bedroom that was, you know, we were very close to other houses, but I had this
00:23:02.220little tiny patio on the side of our bedroom and it had a fence that was just high enough so the
00:23:07.840neighbors couldn't see. And then there's a pergola over it and all this wisteria would grow down.
00:23:11.800And, you know, so every spring it's covered in the soft purple. It's really beautiful. And I
00:23:15.460would go out there and meditate. That was kind of my quiet place. And so when I thought about staying,
00:23:20.120I saw myself laying in bed and turning towards the patio, looking at it because we could leave
00:23:25.560that blinds up. Nobody could see. And it was so still, so still and so peaceful. And when I thought
00:23:34.180about going, I saw myself standing at the edge of a cliff about to jump and I had no idea what was
00:23:40.440going to happen. Could I fly? Would I fall? Like I have no idea. Which one do you choose? I mean,
00:23:48.560that I, I think at some point, you know, there, there becomes a time when maybe there's not one
00:23:56.020right choice, you know, like I, we could have stayed and that would have been, it was, it
00:24:01.140represented peace. It represented stasis a little bit, I think like keeping, keeping going, what's
00:24:06.680going, or we just jump. And I don't know that there's a wrong answer there. You know, I think
00:24:13.680there were moments that, and I write about this in my book, where there were things that I could
00:24:19.620not explain, like things that happened in my body, things that happened in my home that made
00:24:24.260absolutely no sense, that felt like I was being shaken really hard, like you must get on a
00:24:28.720different path. And so I did that. And then after that point, though, it kind of felt like I'm
00:24:34.560writing the book myself, and I could stay, and this might work fine, and I could jump, and that
00:24:39.440might be fine too we just don't know so I don't know that's not a good answer but I think it's
00:24:46.220you know feeling into what's right for you too like does this does the peace and the stasis feel
00:24:51.080like where you need to be then stay because there'll probably be another opportunity you know
00:24:54.660or can you handle it physically emotionally spiritually can you handle the jump at this
00:25:01.140moment in time and again tomorrow might be different six months might be different can you
00:25:05.940do it if you can then jump and can you talk about how your relationship with the divine
00:25:17.360divine feminism divine in all divine animism has supported you through that transition or
00:25:25.040or lit you on fire or turned you upside down i mean all the things you know i i really
00:25:31.540I really I so I pray that a divine feminine version of the rosary I don't you know I didn't
00:25:37.120grow up catholic so I have no personal hang-ups on that prayer it's actually quite revolutionary
00:25:41.760to me to imagine a prayer that's like you know mysteries that are centered around the mother
00:25:46.820primarily so for me that's a very soothing thing and I take out all the references to Jesus and
00:25:51.120and so my prayer practice really got cemented on the road because right away we were well first of
00:25:57.840all you're just you're dragging an rv behind your car like it's it's it's a little dangerous when we
00:26:02.640left it was like ash falling on our cars from wildfires it was a wild time to get on the road
00:26:07.860we had to get out of oregon very quickly because of wildfires that were there that was like our
00:26:13.960first two weeks on the road our truck almost overheated going through this mountain pass
00:26:18.940without without cell service like it was terrifying and i i've got my kids you know at the time who
00:26:25.300were six and nine, you know, I don't know. So there's that whole, like, I've got to protect
00:26:29.240everybody. So I did a lot of, I did a lot of praying. And I think just even the act of like
00:26:35.060the repetitive act of prayers and holding onto beads was really helpful. And then again, the
00:26:41.360land everywhere we went was so spectacular and supportive. And so I felt deeply held in that way
00:26:49.820too. And then I, once we got on the road, I, I was like, you know what, I don't know if I'm going
00:26:55.660to do this whole divine feminine thing anymore. Nobody, nobody wanted to, you know, nobody wanted0.99
00:26:59.960to pick up my book, like in terms of publishing it. And I don't want to self-publish. And I don't
00:27:05.520even know if I need to do this podcast anymore. You know, like, this is kind of crazy trying to
00:27:08.980do it from the road. It really was. And then I started, so, you know, this is, I'm getting to
00:27:15.140point about with a divine supporting or at least guiding. And then I started having dreams. And
00:27:20.660in one dream, I was meeting up with a friend of mine who'd written this really quirky business
00:27:24.840book. He's written a really quirky business book in life. And I ran into him in a hotel and we were
00:27:29.040talking work and books and it was just so exciting. There was so much energy around it. And he was
00:27:33.540encouraging my writing and I was like, well, that's interesting. And then two nights later,
00:27:37.880I had a dream that I was visited by a woman named Bernadette, who was like a nun. She was like a0.80
00:27:42.920mother superior kind of figure. And she told me I was supposed to build a church to the goddess
00:27:47.300and that it was supposed to look like a church. It's supposed to kind of blend into normal society,
00:27:54.920but it was absolutely a church to the goddess. And so I woke up and I was like, okay, well,
00:28:00.060I guess I'm not done with this work yet. I don't know. I never took that literally,
00:28:03.560I'm going to start a church, but it seemed very clear that there was more for me to do
00:28:08.820with this work. So yeah, I followed, I followed that guidance. And then I guess I didn't do
00:28:14.220anything with it at the time, but I took it, I accepted it and I kept doing the podcast and
00:28:17.720going with that. Yeah. And then I think the land again, you know, if I go back to animism,
00:28:23.420I felt so supported and guided by the land. And I think I knew Virginia was going to be the right
00:28:29.120place for us because of the mountains here. I'm very close to the Blue Ridge Mountains,
00:28:33.120part of the Appalachian mountain chain, which is where my father's people are from farther down
00:28:37.700in Tennessee. It felt like, I felt, I mean, it sounds so cheesy. It felt like a hug. It really
00:28:43.160did. It felt like the land was just like really warm and giving me a hug and super stable. I mean,
00:28:47.820this ground is so old, so old. This mountain chain was actually connected to mountains
00:28:54.800in the British Isles when Pangaea was around. So it's solid, stable ground. And I think that's
00:29:02.240what i needed and can you talk about so talking about the divine feminine can kind of like i think
00:29:12.680trigger people who are trying to find a place beyond sort of boring gender binaries yeah i mean
00:29:23.080boring to me probably traumatic to a lot of people and like really normal to most people and i i can
00:29:29.100feel for myself out where there's space you know in that idea that that's really welcoming but
00:29:37.800you've had I mean hundreds of hours of interviews thousands of hours of research and writing what's
00:29:43.560your thinking about that these days I think one of the most troubling things to me about the space
00:29:50.560of the sacred feminine and I you know what I'm just going to go ahead and say heartbreaking is
00:29:54.080to see how it can be used. I mean, not even interpreted, used to hold up some rigidity
00:30:05.560around gender. It's upsetting to me. I think it's not even accurate to the historical record.
00:30:13.460What drew me to the divine feminine was I was coming from a very logical, show me the proof
00:30:19.880kind of place. I'm not interested in anything unless you can prove it to me. And so I got0.62
00:30:24.260really into reading and researching the history of it. And even when you start to dig into the
00:30:29.680history of the sacred feminine, you see gender fluidity right away. And I think, again, studying
00:30:36.920the divine feminine can be a portal to understanding that, right? First of all, if you are someone like
00:30:43.440me who was raised in a really traditional Christian household where God was just a man and it was not
00:30:48.400questioned, then when you start to walk down this path of like, hey, maybe God is something else,
00:30:53.580it can really open a door to, oh my God, maybe God can be all these things. And there is actual
00:30:58.560historical evidence of that. There's lots of sculptures that I think women, particularly0.99
00:31:05.520who were doing this research back in the 80s and so would interpret it as divine feminine figures,
00:31:10.080but they have both sex parts. They are clearly, I mean, I think we call them transgender or we
00:31:16.220call them non-binary or whatever. I don't know what label they would put on. You even see this
00:31:20.600in stories about the goddess Inanna, the Sumerian goddess Inanna. In her translated poem, she has
00:31:26.500the ability to transform male to female and female to male. Like it's there. So it's glaringly
00:31:33.600inaccurate to use the divine feminine, first of all, as like some way of like, this is how
00:31:38.580it all was. And then I guess the other thing that I would say is that I'm really hung up on this
00:31:44.980idea of multiplicity in more than one conversation. I think we can be having more than one conversation
00:31:51.100at the same time. My passion is this sacred feminine for a variety of reasons. She resonates
00:31:57.660with me and how that works for me. And I'm not that unusual. So I'm guessing like maybe that
00:32:04.640resonates for other people, but it's not, it's not, it's not the end all be all. Let's have
00:32:10.960more conversations. I would love, and maybe you know, I want to see people who are studying
00:32:17.920the transgender and the divine and pulling that historical information forward. I think that
00:32:23.580would be handled more responsibly by someone other than me. So I'm not doing it, but I want to see it
00:32:29.000and I'd like to promote it and support it. But I think that if I am talking about the sacred
00:32:34.340feminine, the last thing that I want to do is uphold some idea that means that there's a0.99
00:32:40.040particular way in which you show up in the world or that you were born with a vagina or a breast1.00
00:32:44.580or whatever. That's not my experience. And like I said, I find it deeply troubling when0.99
00:32:51.080this tradition is translated in that way. Yeah, me too. Having these conversations
00:32:59.460and doing all this research, has it impacted how you relate to your own femininity?
00:33:10.040it's just a challenging word, right? Femininity or like, I, cause it's something I really,
00:33:14.960it's like a rollercoaster for me, like how femme I, I identify or, you know, and I have moments,
00:33:21.860you know, being in labor was definitely like, I am in touch with something that is pretty like,
00:33:29.400I put it in a category of the divine feminine people with uteruses can do this thing and they
00:33:34.400don't all identify as women. But those were times where I felt like, okay, this is, I guess what
00:33:39.440people mean by being like a woman and being woman identified but aside from that I was like I don't
00:33:45.060really it's never really been super clear for me what that really is and what part of it I care
00:33:51.340about do you know what I mean I do and when I sit down and really like if you really think about it
00:33:56.060like what does make you a woman like on the one hand it is like cisgender right here like I it's
00:34:04.180never been anything that I've even thought to question do you know what I mean like I never
00:34:07.940it never got to a point of like, wait, this doesn't, like the way in which I was expected
00:34:13.700to express this femaleness really got to me, especially growing up in the South. I felt like
00:34:20.080a lot of pressure to, you know, show up in a particular way, to be pretty, to take care of
00:34:24.380other people's needs, like blah, blah, blah. But in terms of like biology matching, like how I felt
00:34:31.440like that there never ever has been any kind of disconnect. So I, instead I listen, I want to
00:34:38.180listen to people who are having a different experience so I can learn from them. I think
00:34:43.560it, and this is the funny thing, this is the paradox, right? Like if I really start to dig
00:34:50.300into like, what does it mean to be a woman? Fuck, I don't know. And yet I'm still wildly passionate1.00
00:34:56.040about teaching people about the sacred feminine, you know, because I feel like there's medicine
00:35:00.660in there. And there's a way in which those stories have been pressed down and denied. And I want to,
00:35:07.240I want people to have access to them, if nothing else for variety, you know, or like whatever else
00:35:11.540it brings to your life, like variety is good. But no, I did a year long priestess initiation
00:35:17.740program, which was amazing. One of the best things I've ever done. And one of the first things that
00:35:23.140we had to agree to, to be part of that circle. And by the way, there was a man who identified
00:35:27.500as a man in that group. So it is entirely possible to be in circle with people with
00:35:31.460penises and feel safe. I am here to attest to that. And in fact, brought so much to the circle1.00
00:35:36.400that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise in a million different ways. But one of the first things that
00:35:40.360we had to agree to as part of that circle is that each of us is in our own authority. You are in
00:35:47.180your own authority. I am in my own authority. So I define who I am. You don't define it for me and
00:35:53.480I don't define it for you. And that is so powerful to me. And so that alone means I get to explore
00:36:01.200who I am for the rest of my life and decide what that means and decide whether there's like, I
00:36:07.940don't know, alignment with what people think about my body parts or not, but it's mine to do. It's
00:36:12.340my journey to do. And that's other people's journey to do as well. And I want to know what
00:36:17.980you learn it's fascinating right to to see like how other people are experiencing that so it's
00:36:24.200funny if anything i i feel like i'm it's not i just i have maybe i've become less curious about
00:36:30.680i don't know i don't know how to answer that exactly except just to say that there's that
00:36:35.160disconnect between like i don't think it batters that much you know like i don't i don't like my
00:36:42.140identity in that way and yet i'm still passionate about teaching people about the sacred feminine
00:36:45.920both those things are true for me yeah yeah it's the yes and again I know yeah would you tell us
00:36:52.300a couple like maybe give us a couple like little hints from the book for people who are like
00:36:58.640am I gonna go buy this book who are like excited about the book what are some pieces you discovered
00:37:03.960about the divine feminine that you share in the book I also love like there is a really vulnerable
00:37:09.860memoir piece. And I love books that balance that history with the really personal, like I need to
00:37:17.260be taken all the way in to trust the perspective on the history or like to understand that the
00:37:23.880person acknowledges their biases. And I think you do that beautifully. But can you talk a little bit
00:37:27.920about what we find in this book when we sit down with it? Yeah, well, I mean, one of the biggest
00:37:35.200impetuses for writing it is I felt so, and I don't want to bore people. Like if you say history,
00:37:40.500I think people are like, oh my God, that sounds boring. I definitely tried really hard not to be
00:37:45.300boring in the history, but one of the most revelatory things to me in researching the
00:37:49.880sacred feminine is how prominent this idea is everywhere. And I don't mean dominant. I didn't
00:37:55.860say dominant, but just prevalent. Maybe I'll say prevalent. I certainly am not an expert on every
00:38:00.820culture that's ever existed in the world since the beginning of time, nor do I aspire to be
00:38:04.580But I will say that pretty much everywhere I looked, you find evidence of cultures, especially indigenous cultures that have not been destroyed by colonialism, you find a presence of what I call the sacred feminine.
00:38:21.340and that doesn't necessarily mean a goddess, but there is an understanding. Maybe we just put it
00:38:25.940like this. There's an understanding that because all of life is sacred, obviously that which we
00:38:31.240know and experience here as feminine is sacred as well. And there are stories that relate to that.
00:38:37.900And I found those stories incredibly healing. And I wanted to give people as much as I could
00:38:44.380in a really non-boring way, you know, just so you have that information. So it really bugs me that
00:38:50.700I had a graduate degree and I knew nothing about any of this. And I am a hungry learner. I am
00:38:57.600interested in stuff. And I had never found any of this information. So one of my greatest desires
00:39:03.460was to put this in your hands in a way that's interesting and palatable. And then if you read
00:39:07.700nothing else, at least you know, like, look, this is based in history. This isn't just crazy women1.00
00:39:13.320trying to rewrite stuff because as one dude told me on Medium, I felt suppressed by men or something1.00
00:39:19.320stupid like that. Somebody actually gave me a comment like that on my writing. I sense that0.93
00:39:23.580you have a bone to pick because you don't like being suppressed by men. No, there's real evidence
00:39:30.900there. I feel like that's another yes and, right? Yeah, I fucking do feel suppressed.
00:39:36.580You are correct. And this is real. Also, this is a real history.0.97
00:39:42.940Yeah. So I want people to have that. And then like you said, I did want to shweave in some of
00:39:47.000my stories. And there's always a danger in doing that, right? Because a lot of what, well, look,
00:39:52.220I don't think the sacred feminine just lives in books. I think it is our lived experience that is
00:39:57.180some of the most important. And that is also a way of taking divine out of religion and bringing
00:40:01.700it back to ourselves, which is where it belongs, that relationship with the divine. So I wanted to
00:40:06.760share some of that, I guess, to maybe also invite people to reflect on how might these experiences
00:40:13.800be playing out in your life or how might they play out in your life before we wrap sometimes
00:40:18.780I like to ask people is there something that our readers could do that will give them a piece of
00:40:27.000your practice to help kind of maybe root their work further into an understanding of some of
00:40:34.440the things that you're growing with these days so many let me think about that for a second because
00:40:40.000I have a whole, I have a whole morning ritual that I do that has evolved over many years. It's
00:40:44.160just kind of come in piece by piece, but that might be a little too, you know, I think it's
00:40:48.120one of the most valuable things any of us can do right now is, and again, so this is, and I don't,
00:40:54.080is this a word? Animistically inspired as well as, yes, and to divine feminine, sacred feminine
00:40:59.220is go and just sit outside without a timer, without a watch, just go find a place and keep
00:41:07.000going back there and just just be there that's actually and that again if we've drawn the
00:41:13.060historical evidence this was called sitting out if you're of european descent witches witches did
00:41:21.320this our our ancestral mothers maybe fathers whoever did this as well but there was just a
00:41:28.100practice of going and sitting on the lands and listening and seeing what appears and getting
00:41:34.200those answers from the divine and connecting with the divine. There's a prophecy component to it for
00:41:39.440some people, you know, like maybe you're seeing into the future. There's certainly a nervous system
00:41:44.660soothing component there. And then there's just like ordinary magic. Like I've had the most amazing
00:41:49.540things happen just by doing this practice. I have a little bench that's out in the woods behind my
00:41:53.940house and it is my favorite place to go. And I really like to go at dusk. It's a little scary
00:42:00.720because we have bears, but they're not big bears. I think it'll be okay. But I like to go sit there
00:42:05.160right when it's getting dark, just barely can see to get back to the house and just watch what
00:42:10.760happens. I don't know. I would say that's been one of the most valuable practices that I've really
00:42:16.340dialed in since I moved here. I love the phrasing too, sitting out.
00:42:21.220Yeah. It's so simple and so simple. And yeah, totally for those who want to geek out, this too
00:42:26.560was condemned by the Catholic church. And there's evidence of that. You couldn't even go sit and
00:42:30.660look in a pond because you might be having a relationship with God that was outside of the
00:42:34.460walls of the church. So doing this is also a radical act of reclamation. It's kind of like
00:42:39.180a middle finger to all that, right? Like, yes, you can. You can go be with God anywhere you want.
00:42:43.020And I think your ancestors will thank you for it because they couldn't do that.
00:42:46.620I'd love to open it to the folks listening. If you want to jump in, comments, questions,
00:42:52.960current events, as my world history teacher used to say. Hi. My name's Lisa. I know I'm
00:43:00.640standing under a big huge tree i live on a piece of property that my husband's family has lived on
00:43:08.580for five generations now and they they were the first settler family to claim the land in that way
00:43:16.720and right down the road from me is the yakinuki reservation the people who were here who are here
00:43:24.700just live down the road and so I'm also an artist and as an artist wanting to make art about the
00:43:31.300land I'm constantly in this negotiation with like how to do that and it is to me developing so much
00:43:39.760to be just about the relationship that it's like an honest real relationship with the place the
00:43:46.880thing about going to sit out is a lot of how I'm developing that relationship I feel myself like
00:43:51.240sinking into the earth here I offer my hair and my nails and things like that and yeah it's I want
00:43:58.940to be honest about how I got here and what I'm doing here and I want to help this place be as
00:44:06.700magical and healthy and thriving as I hope I can be and my family can be yeah so that's like a tender
00:44:15.320delicate process that I'm engaging in with. I hope enough humility that it becomes genuine,
00:44:21.780you know, as it goes. Anyways, I really enjoyed listening to your conversation. Thanks so much,
00:44:25.900both of you. Thank you. I so appreciate those reflections. And what you're reminding me of
00:44:33.900that I didn't say about moving to this land is that when I first got here, I would say for the
00:44:39.760first year, what I felt from the land more than anything was deep hesitation. Like, who are you
00:44:46.200and what do you want? It felt to me. And so this land was the Monica nation, which is still, you
00:44:51.640know, it's a federally recognized tribe that's based, you know, maybe an hour or two up the road.
00:44:55.120But if you read the history of the indigenous people here, they disappeared pretty fast. Certainly
00:45:00.020there was some decimation from the colonizers, but they also just wanted to get away from the0.90
00:45:04.840white people as quickly as possible. So they started moving out of here fairly fast. So it0.94
00:45:08.720felt like just a deep sense of distrust. And also that there hadn't been any white people who had
00:45:15.060actually walked around and had paid attention to the land in a long time, like with respect. And so
00:45:20.760it felt like the first thing I was supposed to do was to offer my respect and to listen and to just
00:45:27.560not ask anything of the land. I need no answers from you. I'm not going to ask you for anything.
00:45:31.740I'm just going to be present to you. So I went and put a couple of little altars or different
00:45:35.920spots on the property. I read about the indigenous people of this area and learned
00:45:41.120that they prized copper. And so I had some little copper pieces that I went and offered to the land
00:45:45.920as a gift. And I would say it took about a year. And then there was a little beach tree that just
00:45:51.280kind of hangs over the bench where I sit. And that was the first tree that I really started
00:45:57.360moving into relationship with. And now it's just kind of blooming and expanding from there. Yeah.