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00:01:01.060be a witch you must be a witch hello and welcome to another episode of the missing witches podcast0.61
00:01:11.460welcome to our coven and welcome seed bearer shabina lafleur ganji thank you so much for
00:01:20.460sitting down with me today. I'm so excited to learn much, much more about all of your amazing
00:01:26.300projects, but I want to put it in your hands, in your words. Can you take a second to introduce
00:01:31.640yourself to our listeners? Hi, everyone. So my name is Shabina. I'm a community herbalist. I've
00:01:38.180been learning and practicing. I keep, you know, I keep saying it's been like 12 years, but I think
00:01:44.040now it's been significantly longer maybe 15 um and a community organizer i've been using plants
00:01:52.780and and herbs as a way to sort of help support movements for liberation um and i run a school
00:02:02.340alongside my co-conspirator uh stephanie morningstar called seed soil and spirit school
00:02:08.140um it's a school primarily by and for racialized folks but open to everybody um and we talk a lot
00:02:16.280about land stewardship and community herbalism and legacies of plant medicine so I think I would
00:02:24.520say like just a general plant nerd yes you're you're out of Guelph right yeah you have a farm
00:02:35.540there you know okay so that's a that's a good question we've been sort of working on it slowly
00:02:41.100so in our first year um we worked with a bunch of families to grow a bunch of stuff during the
00:02:46.500pandemic um which was great and fun and um last year I actually took a little bit of a
00:02:53.160break mostly because I just popped out a kid um but this year I think we're sort of laying
00:03:02.920down the foundation to do like a proper community consultation um and you know just work with
00:03:09.700everybody to make sure that it's a it's a half acre space and we're really hoping to build like
00:03:14.380an outdoor classroom um and sort of like be a bridge between um like various racialized communities
00:03:23.460um and to really create a co-creative space for cross-cultural connection around plant medicines
00:03:31.360traditional foods and all those things so we're really hoping to get the ball rolling and it's
00:03:37.580coming slowly but it's you know i think with any work um that is done to build the foundation
00:03:45.680properly it takes a long time so yes i think something that you know the forest and humans
00:03:55.200definitely have in common is that we require diversity and biodiversity so I love that like
00:04:02.000both of those notions of diversity are coming into your practice yeah absolutely we need to
00:04:07.720how to get along at one of your taglines I think it's from your website it might be from
00:04:15.300Seed Soil and Spirit and we will get into Seed Soil and Spirit listeners you're going to be so
00:04:19.400excited about this uh one of your taglines is reclaiming ancestral knowledge for collective
00:04:25.660liberation now I mean I want a t-shirt that says that but can you maybe like expand it past a
00:04:31.640bumper sticker into like what you were thinking or how you feel about that statement I mean that's
00:04:37.980a really good question I think um you know funny enough I don't even think I thought about it that
00:04:45.160hard when I wrote it down but when I think about it more and more it really sets in and I think
00:04:50.380you know as people who have like um been historically or currently forcibly displaced
00:05:01.060um much of like what's happened aside from our severance from land is our severance from culture
00:05:06.260plant medicine communities um ways of being etc right and I think um I think being able to like
00:05:14.820learn about those things and to dig into it can sort of unveil or unearth all these legacies of
00:05:23.940how we've lived with the land. And also with each other. I think sometimes when we think about
00:05:29.860history, sometimes we look at it through rose-colored glasses and I keep talking to other
00:05:33.800people about it is when we think traditional, sometimes we actually think about it in this way
00:05:39.420that's romanticized. But sometimes when we actually dig into those ugly histories or we dig into those
00:05:44.500a little bit deeper um you know uh into you know maybe how certain practices came to be
00:05:51.920something a little bit deeper than before white people came along in our histories we often find
00:05:57.080that we actually have much more complex histories with one another um as racialized people and i0.69
00:06:02.180think um part of that uprooting is being able to really look at ourselves and look at where we've
00:06:10.820come from and where we're going um you know for many of us we have these um you know prophecies
00:06:16.760of us coming together and this is these are these are these are times these are prophetic times
00:06:22.540these are times where we we know in our cultures our various cultures this this this is kind of
00:06:27.560like our do or die like um we're at a crossroads and and we all to a certain degree have these
00:06:34.660stories and i think being able to look at where we've come to see where we are gives us a huge
00:06:39.720amount of context about how we relate to plants, how we relate to each other, and how we might be
00:06:46.200able to come together in a way that honors those legacies and does justice to them.
00:06:53.140So what can we learn from plants that we can't learn from other people?
00:06:56.920um you know I was actually just talking to um talking to one of my my colleagues and friends
00:07:09.380Ayo Ngozi and she was talking about you know leading some workshops about um like sound and
00:07:17.740um taste and meditation and all these things you know in terms of her as being a person who is
00:07:24.560sort of severed from from herbal traditions to the transatlantic slave trade sometimes those
00:07:32.300answers of being able to like look back are are significantly more difficult right you don't
00:07:37.540necessarily have like somebody tell you you know this is exactly where you're from so that work
00:07:43.400I mean in that example of course but for a lot of people can be we might not find exact
00:07:49.920answers to the questions that we have. And I think that sometimes through these acts of just
00:07:57.260sitting and listening to ourselves, listening to the plants, we find those answers. You know,
00:08:02.520I think they are our kin, you know, at the end of the day, they have been with us through and
00:08:09.780through generationally, right? It's I always have this like clear memory of, you know, I'm like,
00:08:16.560I'm such a frazzled person sometimes and I was making all these tinctures and as per usual like
00:08:24.180every year I forget to label a few of them you know and I remember this very clear memory of
00:08:30.080trying to like looking at three bottles and having no idea what was going on so I just opened one up
00:08:35.060and smelt it and all of a sudden like this image came to me and I knew right away I was like this
00:08:40.080is turmeric like you don't even I don't have to try this I didn't even consciously think of the
00:08:46.140smell it was just this imagery that came up right away right and I think these these ways of knowing
00:08:51.820that that that show us the way um are are clear teachers you know in in in part of what we do at
00:08:59.840our school is that the students each get a pack of herbs a month and we kind of like give them
00:09:06.840like basic guidelines of how to like sit with a plant and sort of try to understand its medicine
00:09:12.740But, you know, everybody sort of has their journal and they don't know what the plant is. They just feel it out. And from there, like, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. You hear all these stories of, you know, what they think the plant might be good for or how they felt, but then also like the images that come to them and the histories, the legacies.
00:09:34.980And like, they don't even necessarily know what planet is. But when you actually find out, and then they are able to dig into their lineages, it's right there. Those, those, those images, those, those visions, those, those, those feelings, those are all part of what that plant is trying to convey to us.
00:09:53.680And I think that that is just a tiny little door to open into a much deeper realm of understanding and of knowing generationally, right?
00:10:03.760So I think, you know, plants have been with us since the dawn, right?
00:10:08.520And these stories are there and we can access them.
00:10:14.880It's just being able to listen in a different way, I think, sometimes.
00:20:32.520But anyways, point is that we ended up by moving online.
00:20:36.760We thought, OK, well, you know, maybe we can just do like we can just teach it online,
00:20:41.280which I don't really think either of us knew what we were getting into at the time.
00:20:45.040um so we kind of lost our our marbles for a couple years trying to run it um it's been a
00:20:53.140huge learning curve but really I think the goal of the space has been to one sort of like pass on
00:20:59.320our skills I think you know the two of us have obviously been doing this work for a significant
00:21:05.900time amount of time I think we calculated it out to like 35 years together right um and wanting to
00:21:14.440pass that on, but also like support our communities. Both of us have kind of like
00:21:19.620taken Western herb classes and I think found it maybe traumatic, traumatizing, you know,
00:21:29.340just the level of like appropriation and retelling of histories and just the lack of
00:21:36.300seeing ourselves represented in any of the work. We really wanted to be able to offer something
00:21:43.840else and instead of just constantly getting mad at what was there just building what we want to
00:21:49.480build for our communities and sort of like provide that resource and that space to sort of dig in a
00:21:56.200little bit deeper right there's so much potential in being able to have these conversations so much
00:22:01.200beauty but when you can't really get further than scratching the surface there's so much that gets
00:22:06.420left that gets left there and so really we wanted to be able to open that container and
00:22:12.720and have that space and so since 2020 we've had about
00:22:17.400just under 250 students which is kind of significant we started with like nothing
00:22:26.680no money no nothing just pure love we didn't even pay ourselves for the first year
00:22:32.860um and you know you know thank god for those covid checks um but you know and um
00:22:42.200we taught classes on energetics of herbs um sort of some medicine making stuff plant id stuff um
00:22:50.620a lot of stuff linking sort of energetics to plants that grow here so for a lot of people who
00:22:55.400are you know um diasporic people who don't necessarily have access to their traditional
00:23:01.540plants and herbs being able to use the concepts of how we use them to the plants that grow here
00:23:06.800right because our legacies are always migrating we're you know we have for me anyways my people
00:23:12.800have been migrating for the last you know a thousand years and so moving is nothing new
00:23:19.560but it's being able to use these ideas to reconnect to our ways of being um and sort of
00:23:26.480like uplift a lot of the histories and legacies of indigenous folks here um and just being able
00:23:33.800to sort of bridge that those communities, Indigenous, Black, and diaspora communities
00:23:38.960together to be able to have those conversations, to be able to sort of be that bridge, be that
00:23:47.020container, because, you know, a lot of people are wondering how best to come together. And really,
00:23:51.920I don't think we have those answers, but we have tools to bring ourselves together with these
00:23:56.060plants, with these ways of being. And so that's really the container we wanted to create for
00:24:01.260ourselves and um and in 2022 we decided to take a little break and get some resources to really
00:24:10.100build what we wanted to build in a more sustainable way and so we're really thinking big now which is
00:24:16.580great um we've been working um on a program uh called um wild forage in right relationship
00:24:25.240don't just take take care and so essentially the idea is that you know so much of the conversation
00:24:33.980around foraging happens on like a binary right on one side is like this concept that you need
00:24:40.920to be responsible you can't take anything and on the other side is just take what you want or take
00:24:46.52010 you know and I don't think either of them is really rooted in the traditional knowledge around
00:24:52.520these plants right I mean I feel like indigenous communities have been saying since the dawn of
00:24:57.700time that their relationships are interwoven with plants you know humans can help build their
00:25:03.460like support plant populations and plant populations help support humans it's that
00:25:08.140relationship of interdependence but the ways in which we talk about foraging and being with plants
00:25:13.600don't often reflect that within a western herbal framework and so really what we're trying to build
00:25:19.800is a program that sort of brings together people to be able to figure that out. And so we're
00:25:28.560working with an advisory committee right now. It's amazing. Joe Pitawanakwat, Linda Blackalk,
00:25:34.700Ayon Gozi, and Manan Abushi, and then myself and Steph and our coordinator, Sarah,
00:25:40.880to really build that container of co-creation, which has been amazing. And then we're rebuilding
00:25:46.580our herbal immersion program as well. So, um, you know, adding more modules around medicine,
00:25:52.480making, um, formulating all these things to be able to sort of like fill the gaps in what exists
00:25:59.280right now. We don't want to recreate the wheel, but we do want to sort of like serve in a way
00:26:06.260that really speaks to the needs of our communities right now. Um, so be really hands-on, be really
00:26:11.700useful and be answer those questions I think every single time we've hosted the programs people are
00:26:18.020like I don't know should I be should I be even touching these plants or should I be engaging
00:26:22.860with wild plants should I be you know and people have all these questions and a lot of it's so
00:26:27.220theoretical but I think when we talk about traditional medicine even the concept of
00:26:32.400tradition makes it something of the past and I think really what we need to do is bring it into
00:26:37.040the future and bring it into a really embodied practice and so really that's that's that's our
00:26:43.820goal with these programs is to be able to to incorporate these this knowledge this way of
00:26:49.060being into daily life so or sorry and and and like and to like rooted in reciprocity for our
00:26:56.740communities for the original people for displaced people for the land you know all of those things
00:27:03.480Yeah, certainly. I mean, it benefits capitalism and colonialism for us to be, capitalism especially, for us to be alienated from nature.
00:27:16.120You know, I know a lot of people, and for a time this was also me, who were terrified at even the notion of foraging.
00:27:23.340Like the woods is trying to kill me. But really, the woods have been keeping people alive since there have been people.
00:27:33.480Right? Vandana Shiva said something along the lines of, where is the line between the
00:27:40.840civilization and the wild? It's colonial thinking to say that there is one.
00:27:48.220Absolutely. Absolutely. That's it, right? And I think as people who have been severed from
00:27:54.160those traditions, there is this fear, this fear that you're going to fuck it up, or this fear
00:27:58.540that you know like it can be dangerous or this fear that you don't know and that that's a really
00:28:03.960real thing you need to dig into that absolutely like for me anyways like I know I want to be
00:28:09.180responsible and I don't actually know how to do that and I think acknowledging that from the get
00:28:15.580go is number one because that means we need to dig in that means we need to figure out how to do that
00:28:21.420how to lay the foundation and you know it's it's tricky like for me as a settler like i i need to
00:28:29.400figure out what responsibility means how do i uplift the original people here in a way that i
00:28:35.260can learn but that i'm not just taking and i think there's no easy answer to be able to figure that
00:28:40.280out but at the end of the day we know that the people the original people here are asking are
00:28:47.860demanding are saying, you know, we have this responsibility to care for the land and
00:28:52.600settler colonialism is standing in the way of that. So on all levels, we need to be able to
00:28:58.220support that. And whether that's, you know, working at a school and uplifting that or on
00:29:03.340the front lines, but we need to be able to do that because the reality is that severance is
00:29:09.680what's screwing everything up right now, right? We can't let colonialism and that legacy guide the
00:29:16.800next hundred years because we're not going to be here for that how do we how do we reintegrate or
00:29:23.500re how do we heal from that fracture right i have been in touch in touch with uh mandana bushi who
00:29:30.920um you know i think she signed off her email with something like utopic future seeds and i'm like
00:29:38.140i'm keeping that i'm i'm using it forever this notion of utopic future seeds absolutely no she's
00:29:46.060amazing she's hilarious and so brilliant and i mean it's right right like it is the future we
00:29:52.800can't we we have to look back but we also have to look forward like
00:29:56.500we're about to get screwed if we don't take this seriously right um and so the more we can stop
00:30:06.280looking at it as you know the original people used to do this or we as a people used to do this
00:30:11.940like no like this is the reality of what needs to happen in the next like five ten years like
00:30:16.820and if we don't like what's going to happen right and on all levels on all levels I think we've been
00:30:25.160really dancing around this and you've sort of answered this question already in a hundred
00:30:29.520different ways but tell me about this specific relationship or how you view this specific
00:30:36.560relationship between plants and liberation? Or maybe a different way of asking that is like,
00:30:42.440how can our listeners cultivate this relationship between plants and liberation?
00:30:50.640For most of us, our histories of liberation have always incorporated plants. We don't really have
00:30:56.280that without that. I mean, any story we dig into about sovereignty, about our ability to resist
00:31:03.700imperialism and colonization has always tied in plants whether that's when we're sick whether
00:31:09.240that's poisoning our oppressors whether that's like being able to survive in the middle of
00:31:14.340a rocky mountain like i don't i don't know about you but for me my ancestors hid out in in the
00:31:21.200mountains for 200 years um avoiding complete annihilation by just being able to grow plants
00:31:28.520on the side of mountains right and that's that's a really beautiful and real example but the thing
00:31:34.220is is obviously we're not gonna i'm not gonna do that right now but they've been there for us they
00:31:40.340are our food they are our medicine you know and you know i think i know people there's often this
00:31:46.900binary that happens between western medicine and um like herbal medicine when actually the reality
00:31:54.760is that western medicine actually comes from herbal medicine or our traditional or indigenous
00:31:59.820systems of science but when we look at preventative care when we look at community
00:32:09.280resilience when we look at all these things and more and more research is coming out about like
00:32:13.740the need for us to have a varying diet or traditional foods and all that to say that
00:32:20.520you know, at the end of the day, like the, the plants that grow around us help us. Right. And
00:32:25.880when we can eat them or we can use them as medicine, then we become, we become more resilient
00:32:31.400as people, we become healthier. Um, and so, I mean, there's that, but there's also like, you
00:32:39.420know, for forever, people have been able to fight off their oppressors with plants, you know, like
00:32:44.540a really clear example of that is like the Haitian revolution and being able to literally poison,
00:32:49.440um like slaveholders right i mean that's that's pretty fucking badass but then
00:32:55.780that all around right like people's legacies of ceremony with plants all of those things
00:33:02.800have been huge tools and keeping people grounded in like armed struggles um and in in fights for
00:33:10.300liberation i think you know day-to-day it's about connection being able to build relationship with
00:33:15.220these plants i think something that happens on the internet is like plants get dwindled down to
00:33:20.600like this like five top herbs for lungs or everybody drinks some elderberry which you know
00:33:28.760i have my own thoughts about that but at the end of the day we need to be able to dig in a little
00:33:32.900bit deeper right like and even if we're in a city or something like that it's just about seeing
00:33:38.300what's around us and what's not around us right what are what are we seeing here what is in the
00:33:44.120ground what is it a reflection of why are these medicines here what are they trying to tell us
00:33:49.200about the land what are they trying to tell us about our bodies you know medicines often come
00:33:54.080where they need to be right um you know in cities or in situations where there's a huge amount of
00:34:01.400like let's say um you know overbearing there's a lot of different ways to like see this but like
00:34:08.920um, whether that's like toxins or buildup of what I might call dampness or what, you know,
00:34:14.300foods that tend to contribute to like diabetes and stuff like that. There's a ton of herbs that
00:34:19.360are particularly great for those issues just around us growing in abundance. And we might
00:34:25.320look at, you know, this superfood or that, but at the end of the day, the answer is in front of us
00:34:30.580right there. Um, and so those, those plants tell us stories, but then also the lack of certain
00:34:36.680plants or the lack of you know the dwindling populations of certain plants also tell us a
00:34:42.080story right and I think just being able to dig into what's going on in the soil what's happening
00:34:47.340what plants are doing really well and what plants are having a really rough time and what what does
00:34:51.800that tell us and just even answering those questions even if it takes a long time because
00:34:57.280sometimes it's hard to come up with the answer we just begin to peel away at the layers of what's
00:35:02.160happening and I think just that is a liberatory thing because we need to be able to figure that
00:35:09.180out we we we are a reflection of the ecosystem and those like we mirror what's happening and so
00:35:18.320it's sort of being able to pull a mirror up at ourselves I was just writing down we are a
00:35:24.000reflection of the ecosystem and certainly we are a large part of it a larger part of it than we
00:35:29.900probably should be but i love that you bring this like binary smashing notion to herbalism first of
00:35:36.500all that we can learn from what's there but also from what's not there so if we live in urban
00:35:42.120environments we can notice where plants are missing but also you know the herbalist as healer
00:35:48.540you've kind of shot the binary out of that too because we're also talking about the herbalist0.66
00:35:53.360as hexer as poisoner I I love this like holistic again this non-binary approach that you have to0.92
00:36:03.280to dealing with plants but it's true though like even I remember like digging into the0.99
00:36:09.700just coming back to like what's not there it just something that is coming up for me is is thinking
00:36:16.000about garlic mustard garlic mustard is kind of everywhere here um and oftentimes like people's
00:36:23.140response to it is to be able to pull it out en masse and you know whether or not they make pesto
00:36:28.300or just throw it in the dump is um is kind of irrelevant a lot of the time it's just this act
00:36:34.060of taking it up and considering that to be like an anti-colonial act when that's not really done
00:36:39.900in relationship with the original people here um these are often settler run projects with the
00:36:45.940idea that they're they're repopulating native populations of plants but actually recently i
00:36:50.940dug into sort of research around what happens after that initial stage of being able to pull
00:36:55.460pull the garlic mustard up and what they're finding is that it actually doesn't um increase
00:37:01.620the populations of native plants at all um which is hilarious because to me that that just goes to
00:37:09.720show right like it takes much more than that to be able to support those populations of plants
00:37:17.480Like native plants need their people. Their people have always been there for them. You know, the concept that forests and landscapes prior to colonization, you know, I know people say this all the time, but that the concept that these places weren't, you know, an art in of themselves and weren't very skillfully cultivated is absurd, right?
00:37:41.000And so we always see this, right, with organizations or land trusts that are rooted in concepts of conservation that don't actually directly, you know, involve Indigenous people, aren't directly led by Indigenous people.
00:37:55.760This concept that humans need to get off and then that nature will heal itself, will just take away this like, quote unquote, invasive plant. And somehow the native plants will somehow just thrive. And that's actually bullshit. That actually does not happen, right?
00:38:11.440And that plants are actually smarter than we think, I think, and have their own thing going on. But that also, like, people who have known this land for, you know, since time immemorial actually know way more than whatever the fuck is going on over there, right?
00:38:28.800And so being able to just like look beyond just like the concept of what's missing, you know, what is here in abundance? Is this a problem? Like these like plants that are like so proliferous here that are like not native to here, like simply looking at them as a problem, whereas digging into like, why are they here? What happened?
00:38:49.120You know, a lot of these plants are here because there's like a huge amount of toxicity in the soil. So what are they doing to that toxicity? You know, and I think there's so much more to dig into when it comes to that stuff.
00:39:02.280so yeah I don't have a source for this because it just came into my memory but I remember reading
00:39:07.380this story that like these colonial settlers came to the Americas and they were like
00:39:13.720you know it's a miracle land where all the edible fruits are just lining all the paths
00:39:20.100and as if this wasn't like thousands of years of cultivation and but in a different way it was
00:39:26.940cultivation in a way that was so I'll use the word foreign because it's like literal and
00:39:32.020you know figurative this way of cultivating was so foreign to them that they didn't even
00:39:38.440recognize it as cultivation even like the packaging on plants like on vegetables sometimes
00:39:44.900is like farmed I'm like of course it like what what do you mean of course it's farmed
00:39:52.920you know in the last 200 years like you know and even more but we've had this like huge imperialist
00:40:02.640sort of presence like across the world and and a lot of it sort of like forced or subjugated
00:40:08.500people into specific ways of growing food and and that that healing from that hasn't really
00:40:14.260happened to a certain the degree that we need right like I think about you know I was just
00:40:19.680talking to a friend about like the the spice trade and like even tea like in india the concept of how
00:40:25.360these things were grown before was completely different to what we see now and that um that
00:40:32.080that even now to these this day that that system hasn't really healed from that imperialism that
00:40:37.840colonization at all like it it just replicated itself with our own people and i think
00:40:43.660like we need to figure that out like this this concept of being able to like decolonize or
00:40:50.320reassess the ways in which we we did things needs to needs to come back because of course like
00:40:56.480it's such a it's a system born out of trauma um and it to address it on all ends you know as
00:41:08.240herbalists that that's so much of what we do right um is to be able to support people with
00:41:15.020that reality and i think on all levels and all systems that that's absolutely the response right
00:41:20.420we we need to deal with that yeah i i love this like notion of of herbalism as you know harm
00:41:29.560reduction as trauma therapy in addition you know we think about like your friend whose arm exploded
00:41:35.720and then you put the you know the the poultice of leaves on the arm and then the arm reduces but
00:41:42.100like we also have these emotional intellectual losses of health let's say and herbalism can
00:41:51.460help that too absolutely because it's not just like it helps us on a physical level but
00:41:57.020oftentimes we're working with plants that are from our lineages and that that connection helps us I
00:42:03.380think on a on a deeper spiritual level right like from that severance we're able to like
00:42:09.400reconnect with what has helped us along the way you know and and and that is invaluable
00:42:15.260i think that it's also kind of the answer to the question of why
00:42:20.520why you needed or felt that you needed to include the word spirit in with the soil
00:42:27.060and the seed absolutely absolutely we can't
00:42:31.880we see projects we see things that happen that are not rooted in our systems of kinship and our
00:42:41.220systems of you know connection to the land that build up and then fall apart you know and and
00:42:48.180it's really about bringing that integrity that that that understanding that we are connected
00:42:54.280and that we need to be able to uplift each other i can't screw you over i can't screw over this
00:42:59.760plan i can't just rip and take out what i want or like screw over your community because at the end
00:43:04.240of the day that that's going to harm all of us right like we need to work from a place of integrity
00:43:09.680and of being able to see the care and the reciprocity between all of us to be able to
00:43:17.240uplift and do that real work whether you know whatever lineage or whatever system of spirituality
00:43:22.520or religion or whatever that is that you're working from at the end of the day like it's
00:43:28.060the same shit like we need to be able to hold each other which is you know a lot more difficult than0.98
00:43:34.560it sounds sometimes but it's the reality of where we are we know that we're connected0.99
00:43:40.020I just know that our listeners are going to absolutely fall in love with you as I have
00:43:45.420in this conversation. So please, can you tell them, first of all, if they're scared of plants
00:43:53.760for whatever reason, what might be like a good way to dip their toe into the water? Let's start
00:44:00.040there. I mean, I think just like getting to know a really simple plant. Just start with one. It's
00:44:09.380like i think some people have this idea of like you know capital h herbalism you know like
00:44:15.500herbalism trademark or whatever but i think at the end of the day it's like
00:44:20.040it's about just developing that relationship whether that's a dandelion or plantain leaf or
00:44:26.100whatever is growing in abundance near you that's used as medicine that you know isn't going to like
00:44:31.920harm you like i think it's just about you know dandelion dandelion like if you have a tea that's
00:44:37.860not going to kill you and just taste it you know put it in a salad you know and I think just sit
00:44:44.960with it see how it feels see how it tastes what does that tell you about it how did you feel after
00:44:50.640and you know maybe read a thing even if you don't remember almost anything of what you read you're
00:44:58.280going to hold on to maybe one word and I think that's fine I remember my first like herbal class
00:45:03.700you could say that I took I had like all these notes and I was like I need to remember all this
00:45:08.240and I felt like a failure for non but at the end of the day I think I remembered like two three
00:45:13.720words and I remembered the name of the plant and just okay you know this one is like more like a
00:45:20.520bitter herb and bitter supports you know the production of bile from the liver okay that's
00:45:26.520what i've got like this one is like smells sweet and is calming great like that's good like stick
00:45:33.980with that you know and as long as you have like a tiny little bit you are going to keep building on
00:45:39.200it we have generations to come to bring this stuff back right and and the more you kind of
00:45:44.760immerse yourself within it the easier it is to understand um it's just little by little and you0.98
00:45:50.940know even at this point like shit you can get dandelion at the grocery store these days you0.94
00:45:56.340know but like if you're out in a field or whatever like you can grab that too as long as you think0.98
00:46:01.340there's like no dog shit on it like go for it you know and I think that there's this thing where
00:46:08.700herbal medicine is a science and that's absolutely true and there's like the herbs that cross over0.89
00:46:15.460between like food and medicine and I think those are great herbs to start with like raspberries
00:46:20.900raspberry leaf like you know food is medicine even just understanding the concepts of food like
00:46:26.700it's easy to dig in like I just I think it's one of those things it's like one of those
00:46:34.060doors that you open and once you start to open it all comes in but it's just that little act of
00:46:40.900opening the first little bit that that that can open that it's just a matter of putting yourself
00:46:47.360in there you don't have to be scared um these are foods i'm so happy that you brought the humble
00:46:55.560dandelion into this circle into this conversation because one like you said you can eat every single
00:47:01.400part of it is from root to bloom it's not gonna hurt you and they are everywhere you don't have
00:47:08.960to go to like a special you know at least in you know the country that we live in they're everywhere
00:47:14.160and also we can relate to them because even though they're so useful and so beautiful
00:47:21.760our society has decided that they need to be terminated out of all existence you know like
00:47:30.520even to the point and i've written about this before where like i'm sort of rewilding a lot of
00:47:37.000the the space that i have and so that means you know letting dandelions grow and then i have to
00:47:43.260contend with like are my neighbors going to be mad at me if some of my like dandelion floofs
00:47:50.980contaminate their perfectly manicured lawn it's like a real thing so like symbolically and
00:47:57.820practically and nutritionally all of the seed soil spirit all of these things we can find those
00:48:04.180lessons in the humble dandelion thank you so much for bringing her to this conversation
00:48:09.000yeah absolutely and you know it's like it's so funny because the amount of dandelion that's
00:48:15.320imported is absurd you know we eradicate it and then we import it thank you capitalism
00:48:23.480like for us anyways like as like in ayurvedic medicine we use dandelion um in chinese medicine
00:48:31.340we use dandelion all these systems of medicine throughout like um throughout the world use
00:48:37.460dandelion but so much of it um you know our our people come to this country and obviously are
00:48:45.880often relegated to like apartment buildings and you know housing projects and stuff like that and
00:48:51.780and we're you know that suddenly we don't have our our patch that we normally like harvest from
00:48:58.900or you know and so I think it's like so silly like it's all this dandelion is getting ripped out
00:49:04.100meanwhile we're like shipping dandelion from like the motherland back to here and it's like
00:49:09.180what why and so yeah no absolutely and I think obviously more and more you know people are
00:49:17.780having this like no mow may or something where they're like trying not to mow their lawns but
00:49:23.100I think more and more I'm hoping that it becomes more the norm like I remember when I was younger
00:49:28.460my parents let you know our lawn kind of do whatever it was doing and you know the city
00:49:35.720bylaw came and that was that the end right and so I think now you see more and more where people
00:49:43.720aren't you know getting called for letting things grow as they should and so um you know hopefully
00:49:51.760hopefully in the next 10 years we'll actually see a really different situation um especially as
00:49:57.280things become a little bit more dire I'm sure that I'm sure that the the the line of what's
00:50:04.580considered acceptable will continue to migrate to something a little bit more reasonable
00:50:08.680well that's a utopic future seed if I ever heard one I truly hope that you're right