Rowan & Pine: A Feminist Folklore & Mythology Podcast - Episode Thirty-Three： African Azande Witchcraft - Donegal Catch

00:00:00.000 and uh witchcraft is the belief of all designed everywhere any illness is caused by somebody by

00:00:09.360 an evil eye which is caused by something which is invisible inside the 0.91

00:00:16.400 the vibes are already off it's a sad it's a sad girls club today

00:00:28.640 hello people it's a wednesday and emily and i are sad we are sad sad girls club on the podcast

00:00:37.540 today sad girls club which is funny because today is also when our previous episode has

00:00:44.260 coming out yeah um i hope everybody enjoyed um the witch trials i renamed it last minute to the

00:00:52.260 witch trials of western europe because i was like i can't call this a witch trials episode i didn't

00:00:56.300 go to any other continents so it's yeah it was literally just ireland germany scotland and

00:01:03.660 england so i was like i didn't go to the us i didn't go anywhere in asia i didn't go to spoiler

00:01:12.240 alert where we're going today or south america so i was like that's not true also it leaves room

00:01:18.120 if we ever want to go to any of those other places on our witchcraft mini series it leaves

00:01:24.940 it open emily's hopping up and down in her chair she's so excited i had to put it down so i'm

00:01:32.240 closer to my microphone i realize i'm completely turning away i'm gonna move you please hold

00:01:36.920 do do do do there we go so yes if it's your first time here my name is Niamh and I'm Emily and this

00:01:47.260 is the Roan and Pine podcast and you just dropped it in the middle of a witchcraft miniseries what

00:01:51.600 are you doing go back to the start yeah yeah at least go back to the start of the series

00:01:56.280 also you keep calling it a miniseries but we've done like five episodes it's not that many

00:02:01.660 well I like what's like a HBO series HBO is what like six episodes they usually call them miniseries

00:02:08.960 like in comparison to normal seasons of television that are like 20 episodes yeah I suppose well

00:02:17.180 American TV is 20 episodes true true TV on this side of the pond tends to be like

00:02:23.280 five episodes every four years and you can't remember anything that happened

00:02:27.400 you're like oh i'm so happy for my show to come back what who the hell are all these people

00:02:33.400 i gotta re-watch the beginning again speaking of hbo i finished true detective night country last

00:02:40.520 night and it is so good you unhated it i thought it was amazing because it's a little bit supernatural

00:02:49.080 and there is a lot of indigenous representation in it a lot of cool feminism female

00:02:57.120 representation in it jodie foster is the main character it is so good i highly recommend if

00:03:03.940 any of those things sound up your alley you emily or you listener yeah if you haven't watched it yet

00:03:11.320 if you have watched it um talk to me about it i don't i don't have anybody to talk to about it

00:03:16.460 but we also have we just watched what i was just gonna say i also finished like i feel like i keep

00:03:22.920 updating our listeners even though not one single person asked updating our listeners that i finished

00:03:28.920 fargo and um there is a sin eater in the latest season of fargo and it's inspired me i really

00:03:35.660 want to do an episode on sin eaters so emily and i are working on that or we're putting in the work

00:03:43.360 on sin eaters yeah because um really fascinating super fascinating we just watched last night we

00:03:51.640 watched uh mrs peregrine's home for peculiar children i've heard of this i've never seen it

00:03:57.660 i always think it's is it similar to lemony snicket similar vibes uh similar vibes just

00:04:04.220 with kind of like the the color palette and the strangeness i guess yeah i like the um

00:04:12.560 unfortunate events better okay this one was good it's just you like it's it's for kids

00:04:20.760 yeah yeah but it was good it was i turned it on like when our daughter was still awake

00:04:27.160 because i was like oh it's like a kid's movie and then i was like i mean she's tiny so she

00:04:32.220 doesn't know what's going on but as we were watching it i was like oh it's like a little

00:04:35.740 older kids it's not yeah like a little kid movie but yeah it was pretty cool i just like the

00:04:42.420 like the costumes and the weird stuff i was gonna say something else about it but

00:04:49.260 Oh, Chris O'Dowd is in it.

00:04:52.200 Oh, cool.

00:04:53.180 I love him. 1.00

00:04:54.380 And it's weird because he's doing an American accent. 1.00

00:04:59.440 Oh, no.

00:05:00.800 But he's struggling with it.

00:05:02.640 I love him.

00:05:03.360 But he's like, I was like, oh, you maybe should have taken more classes or something because his accent was just fluctuating between like Midwestern and kind of like New Yorkish and Southern.

00:05:18.500 And I was like, buddy, you got to get it together.

00:05:21.720 Yeah.

00:05:22.700 Are you from Chicago or Dallas?

00:05:25.880 His character in Bridesmaids,

00:05:28.320 for anybody who's like, who the hell is Chris O'Dowd?

00:05:30.780 He's the inexplicably Irish police officer in Bridesmaids.

00:05:35.920 In Wisconsin?

00:05:37.380 Yeah.

00:05:37.640 Isn't it in Wisconsin?

00:05:39.000 It never acknowledges why he does not have an American accent,

00:05:43.460 I'm pretty sure.

00:05:44.580 I think they do address the accent at some point in that movie. 0.99

00:05:48.080 but like I can only ever I can only imagine that that's because he's so terrible at American 0.61

00:05:52.680 accents they were just like just no just do your own accent just be Irish

00:05:57.280 yeah yeah um actually that is a little um tv recommendation for you similar vibes to

00:06:09.280 Derry Girls Chris O'Dowd has a semi-autobiographical sitcom okay called Moonboy

00:06:17.080 based on his own childhood in i was hoping you were gonna say the it crowd no

00:06:21.600 um but yeah it's it's really good if i remember it's so long since i watched it i think he plays

00:06:29.740 his own imaginary friend oh that's funny um but it's it's brilliant like he grew up in a house

00:06:34.960 with like all sisters and his sisters are just like gently bullying him the entire time 0.96

00:06:38.740 oh it's very sweet but yeah similar vibes to dairy girls like just completely like 0.97

00:06:44.720 just very character driven really like likable funny characters in it yeah and not a whole lot 0.63

00:06:50.800 happens you know very Irish but this week we are outside of Ireland um for installment number five

00:07:00.300 I believe yes five episode 33 of the Ronan Pine podcast we are going to continental Africa

00:07:09.520 to talk about African witchcraft not an easy one because despite what some people may

00:07:17.080 go on like Africa is a continent not a country my god and is made up of many many many different

00:07:26.420 cultures and spiritualities but it does have a very strong witchcraft tradition and a very strong

00:07:35.640 uh even today affinity with folk magic folk medicine so we're going to do some deep diving

00:07:43.600 into it right at the top of the episode i'm going to do a content warning um i will re-edit

00:07:49.800 reiterate the content warning before the actual content that i'm referring to but yeah we just

00:07:56.860 have some dark things in this episode with regard to violence against women violence against pregnant

00:08:02.440 women so if you're not feeling like that's anything that you can hear right now maybe

00:08:07.140 skip this episode for today or tomorrow or however long you need because we try not to

00:08:12.820 go to current event political on this podcast like it's supposed to be a little bit of an escape

00:08:19.180 and a little bit of fun and it's just if you enjoy learning about other cultures and

00:08:24.700 maybe even learning about your own culture that's what we intended to be we never intended to be

00:08:29.780 dark and something that's gonna stick in your head for days after like right we don't want

00:08:36.960 you to have a bad day when you're listening to this podcast exactly even if we're having a bad

00:08:41.660 day currently we can have bad days but you're not allowed to yeah you're not allowed to have a bad 0.97

00:08:48.780 day positivity always toxic positivity okay so let's get into it many african societies still

00:08:57.660 use native terms connected to witchcraft practices and beliefs indicating how widespread witchcraft

00:09:03.000 belief is across the continent. The term witchcraft has different names in different languages for

00:09:08.900 example Amusu or Igbansi in the Igbo language, Ochu in the Igala language, Opochi or Inebe in

00:09:18.480 Igbira language. Witchcraft is frequently connected to practices that touch on the paranormal or

00:09:24.220 metaphysical and have an impact on the world of humans coexisting with traditional medicine and

00:09:29.900 folk healing and it's treated the same although as we'll see in many African cultures it is actually

00:09:36.740 two complete separate systems of beliefs and systems of quote-unquote magic. So just to set

00:09:44.680 the scene a little bit it's very hard to discuss anything to do with Africa without looking at it

00:09:50.280 in the context of colonialism and what colonialism has done to the continent but obviously there's a

00:09:59.800 very little written record of what existed before but what we do know is that millions of people in

00:10:07.320 African rural communities had access to traditional medicine prior to what we would call western or

00:10:14.580 cosmopolitan medicine for a larger segment of the populace it served as their only source of

00:10:20.120 health care and healers are referred to by many different names throughout africa but just one

00:10:26.500 example in zulu culture herbal and spiritual healers are called sangomas they protect people

00:10:33.340 from evil spirits and witchcraft even up to the present day they usually train with elders for

00:10:38.600 five to seven years so that's as long as like that's as long as like our doctors would spend

00:10:43.180 in college pretty much wow and perform divination and healing with their ancestral spirits there's

00:10:50.640 another type of healer in zulu culture called inyanga and they heal people with plant and

00:10:57.120 animal parts so it's a lot more herbal medicinal rather than calling on the ancestors yeah their

00:11:02.940 profession is hereditary and passed down through family lines so if your mom was one that also the

00:11:09.340 way like doctors work for us your parents are doctors you're probably gonna be one too yeah

00:11:15.240 it's kind of in the family there used to be a distinction between the sangoma and the inyanga

00:11:20.260 but increasingly over time in contemporary practice the terms are used interchangeably

00:11:26.740 just depending on what you're going to them for traditional medicine over the years has

00:11:31.460 waned obviously the way it has the way it has in every other cultural culture throughout the world

00:11:37.900 in 1953 the south african medical association banned the use of traditional medicine my gosh

00:11:44.220 here we go traditional yep it starts traditional medicine practitioners in south africa are

00:11:50.920 actually prohibited from conducting business due to the wish witchcraft suppression act of 1957

00:11:56.400 and the witchcraft suppression amendment act of 1970 so they went back for twice wow yeah um so

00:12:02.740 that was like where you can see folk healing and folk medicine being lumped in with witchcraft

00:12:07.540 whereas a lot of these communities wouldn't view them as the same thing i just don't understand

00:12:12.580 why cultures have to do this yeah they're like oh you're trying to give somebody tea for their

00:12:17.920 sore throat which yeah i mean i i feel like i can i feel like i know why they do it but yeah

00:12:24.440 like 1953 south africa wasn't going to be the most tolerant of traditional beliefs right for a start

00:12:30.240 i can understand and this is absolutely not defending apartheid south africa but i can

00:12:36.760 understand from the standpoint of if there's a proven western medical solution to something

00:12:44.460 like somebody is availing of yes yeah somebody is availing of folk medicine in place of that and

00:12:51.360 maybe putting themselves or their children in danger i can understand it from that standpoint

00:12:55.280 yeah but like you're saying like when a lot of it can be very harmless and very much you know

00:13:02.940 take these herbs that are actually you know a lot of them can be proven to have like positive

00:13:08.060 effects right you know what's what's the harm for a lot of these yeah supplementary you know don't

00:13:14.860 people use that term supplementary medicine um or complementary medicine isn't that what they say

00:13:19.720 i know there's integrated medicine where they kind of take the best of both worlds like they'll

00:13:24.560 they'll be able to look at it and say like i said this is a situation for antibiotics like you have

00:13:30.760 strep throat and you need to get the strep out of your body or they can look at you and you know

00:13:38.060 maybe some chamomile tea or something like that and yeah i think i wish that places you know

00:13:46.880 instead of trying to remove it completely they could work on an integrated approach yeah like

00:13:53.220 the greatest example i think of a natural remedy being better than anything that like western

00:13:59.020 medicine is like honey for a sore throat like most doctors even now will tell you to get like

00:14:04.900 a really good quality like say manuka honey or something like that and they're saying it's better

00:14:09.100 than any like say cough medicine that you could just get over the counter and i'm talking about

00:14:13.420 just like a persistent like cough sore throat to relieve those symptoms yeah obviously if you have

00:14:18.260 strep throat like go get on to be honest yeah but that's really interesting because i people always

00:14:23.100 talk about like honey for sore throat like honey tea and i'm like well when you put it in hot tea

00:14:30.180 does it i don't know like are you supposed to just like drink the the sticky honey is that

00:14:35.060 like the point or it's basically supposed to coat your throat so it like makes it easier for you to

00:14:41.740 swallow things and makes it less painful yeah and it also has like antioxidant properties

00:14:47.380 interesting so it promotes healing yeah and things like that not so much I know honey is

00:14:52.880 like touted as antiseptic and it is I'm sure if you're not putting it in hot tea but yeah like

00:14:59.220 just from that standpoint like it's the actual physical properties of the honey that's what I

00:15:03.920 was thinking it's completely harmless and it'll like coat your throat and it'll just make you

00:15:07.440 feel better I feel like I'm getting like a sore throat just talking about this I'm like getting

00:15:13.360 like a phantom throat you're like where's the honey i'm sad my father-in-law isn't keeping

00:15:18.500 bees anymore i used to have like oh yeah a great honey source he still has some i'll go raid some

00:15:24.220 at the weekend is he gonna is he ever gonna get back into that or maybe he's not thinking that

00:15:28.880 far out we were talking about it we were saying that like maybe eventually if it is something

00:15:34.380 that like maybe ewan can do with him yeah um because there's a lot of like not really heavy

00:15:39.840 lifting but there's a lot of like lifting and just for context my father-in-law had a stroke last

00:15:43.940 year so he is he's doing really well and his his mental capacity is there and all of that but it's

00:15:50.980 just like physical things yeah that he's having trouble with so if it was something that like he

00:15:55.700 could do it and like direct you in on what to do um because he's also like he loves teaching people

00:16:01.960 about bees and about honey and showing you things and all of that yeah yeah where was it um

00:16:08.180 witchcraft has different definitions in different nations and in different communities similarly

00:16:14.140 there is no universal pattern of witchcraft beliefs and practices across all african cultures

00:16:19.400 for example the practice of witchcraft in nigeria frequently overlaps with religion

00:16:24.660 practices like magic sorcery esotericism and diabolism so it's really a catch-all

00:16:31.520 although as we've seen witchcraft was part of african society prior to the arrival of

00:16:37.580 christianity and islam christian missionaries encountered various practices including witchcraft

00:16:43.120 that they deemed to be quote-unquote barbaric christianaries pentecost christianaries yeah 0.94

00:16:49.680 that would be way easier to say wouldn't it the pentecostal movement's explosive growth in the

00:16:54.860 1970s seems to have significantly reshaped the cultural philosophical and ideological

00:17:00.000 framework supporting witchcraft practices and beliefs once again capital t capital c the church

00:17:07.060 also i've heard like the the capital t capital c church is bad in like most of the sects of

00:17:17.840 religion but i've heard that the pentecostal religion is pretty rough yeah as in like pretty

00:17:26.260 like fire and brimstone is it one of those sort of um like a lot of brainwashing and like it's not

00:17:35.880 sort of like direct child abuse but have you seen that video where all the kids are like speaking

00:17:40.480 in tongues and like crying oh is that what that is is that pentecostal yeah pentecostal is like

00:17:45.420 speaking in tongues and like snake charming and like things like that just like really like wild 0.98

00:17:50.240 wild shit and they're saying that african traditional witchcraft is uh barbaric right 0.99

00:17:57.000 look inside yourself 0.99

00:18:00.040 much historical research on africa and the african diaspora has been attempting for over

00:18:09.420 a century to refute ideas that portray africa as pre-modern like it's usually one thing i always

00:18:16.100 think like when i see africa showing up in like a bbc news report it's like it's always going to

00:18:20.640 showing something that's really dark and will show whatever community it's focused on as sort

00:18:28.360 of backward and like I notice a lot of that in western media here like when news makes it here 0.94

00:18:33.600 from Africa it's usually really shit yeah it's like something awful that's happening and like 0.96

00:18:40.900 obviously you know if it bleeds it leads you're only going to hear bad news stories yeah but 0.99

00:18:45.400 there's like this weird fascination and don't get me wrong I'm going to get into some of those

00:18:49.540 stories later on but just to contextualize it as this is very colonial when you look at the

00:18:55.500 anthropology of africa it's very like oh this is fascinating we're studying them like they're like

00:19:00.600 science projects and science exhibits right there's very much because like something that i

00:19:05.560 noticed that like really pisses me off is that people always use the example like i know there's

00:19:10.760 starving children in africa and people see africa as a whole as like this i don't even know what the

00:19:17.480 word is but we all know like when people are like oh like people in africa you see people like out

00:19:24.000 in the dirt wearing like almost no clothing and they live in little huts and things like that and

00:19:28.340 that's how like people view africa even though africa has like city centers and it's not just

00:19:35.920 like people living in the wild it's like and it's really it's really depressing and disappointing

00:19:43.960 because i'm just like africa is not just like indigenous tribes living off the land and stuff

00:19:51.280 like that it's like yeah yeah it would be like saying that the u.s is all like people who live

00:19:58.040 in appalachia like people who live really rural like you know small community simple life right

00:20:03.920 you know right or it's kind of because my husband and i watch 90 day fiance we're terrible we're

00:20:09.100 guilty of it people will come to the u.s from like other countries and they think it all looks

00:20:16.020 like la and new york city like the whole country and then they'll move to like god like a little

00:20:21.740 house in the country with like their their fiance and they're like what is this like where are the

00:20:27.200 big buildings where are the fancy cars and it's like that's not that's not what the u.s is

00:20:32.300 yeah i think like most most cultures would be like guilty of stereotyping and like thinking

00:20:39.540 that everything's as you see on tv right and in films yeah i think africa gets the short end of

00:20:46.560 the stick though yeah looking in my research for this episode like looking back a lot of the research

00:20:52.640 into this topic was done back in one of the big studies like the 1930s and this is like a more

00:20:59.740 progressive study that we're going to be looking at from the 1930s and even then like you can

00:21:04.800 totally look at it you can see the undertones of this whole like othering of African people 0.69

00:21:11.020 and African culture just being like basically like they're a zoo exhibit and obviously that

00:21:15.900 is the way these people thought right at the time right and it's the threads of that have come all

00:21:21.820 the way down to the present day people still think that way even if they're not fully aware of it yeah

00:21:26.300 you know and it's disgusting that it is for example the work that's been done to refute those

00:21:33.420 ideas of africa being pre-modern that i was talking about claims were made in 1915 that

00:21:38.520 africa was not part of quote-unquote universal history however an american sociologist named

00:21:45.020 dubois acknowledged that modern africa his words lagged behind europe as did many of his generation

00:21:52.100 of sociologists but he was the first to present the theory that the reason why africa lagged

00:21:59.100 behind the rest of europe this was caused by unfavorable geography and the devastation brought

00:22:04.760 about by the trans-saharan and atlantic slave trades not by the inferiority of the continent's

00:22:10.140 people right so yeah thank you like other people did this to them yeah it's like what the hell do

00:22:17.600 you expect they live literally on like the hottest place on earth yeah a large portion of the country

00:22:23.260 is desert yes and they have been decimated for centuries so when you look at like the culture

00:22:31.000 and the inter-community relationships and how religion has evolved you can see that it's

00:22:40.660 understandable that a lot of people would believe in witchcraft or they believe in magic they believe

00:22:45.080 in these things in fact a scholar writing about tanzania so i would always pronounce this as

00:22:50.700 tanzania i work with people from kenya and they pronounce it as tanzania and they reckon that

00:22:57.440 that's the way it's supposed to be pronounced okay so take it up with the kenyans

00:23:01.080 because i said tanzania and they're like no it's tanzania like okay unless they're pranking never

00:23:07.520 heard that in my life yeah maybe they are maybe they just want maybe luck bad in front of people 0.99

00:23:11.760 they're like i heard she has a podcast yeah just tell her shit just tell her anything 0.98

00:23:18.340 she'll believe it the scholar wrote people believe that magicians have the power to cause disease 0.99

00:23:24.940 sickness and animals bad luck sudden death impotence and other such misfortunes witchcraft

00:23:31.260 is a system of cultural and social action woven into the framework of life despite efforts to

00:23:36.940 deny it and eliminate it it exists and many people in africa act accordingly if everybody else

00:23:42.580 believes in witchcraft and this is what you are contending with of course you're going to like

00:23:47.160 try and protect yourself and your family right it's just part of your life and part of your

00:23:50.840 beliefs right the post-colonial this like reinterpretation of witchcraft affected

00:23:56.800 politics at all spheres so from the state the family and even among ethnic groups it got to

00:24:05.020 the point where government actions were thought to be witchcraft if they were perceived by a

00:24:09.660 particular group as being directed against them or if they didn't align with the public interest

00:24:14.440 when a family member poses a barrier to the advancement of one or more of their family

00:24:20.780 members even in cases where the alleged impediment lacks spiritual justification

00:24:24.920 this behavior is also considered witchcraft like if a rival group isn't pleased with a policy or

00:24:30.940 action it's quickly interpreted as witchcraft in both the formal and informal sectors so it's sort

00:24:36.920 of like this explanation to anything that's like not going your way and not aligning with how you

00:24:43.060 believe that the world should be and i suppose it's a way of reasoning right things out it's

00:24:47.440 the way that they can mess people up i'm trying to think of a more articulate way of saying that

00:24:54.200 but it's like justification of like they're committing nefarious deeds and they're committing

00:24:59.860 witchcraft because I am in the right and yeah I have goodness on my side and it's it could only

00:25:06.360 be witchcraft is the reason why I'm not getting what I want yeah you know and it makes somebody

00:25:10.200 question their reality because if they're like oh my mom's a witch and then somebody's like well if

00:25:16.040 you think if you believe that they're a witch then you're also a witch then it's just like wait

00:25:20.200 and then you like internalize that you're a bad person and that your mom's a bad person that

00:25:25.360 everybody around you is a bad person and it's just a way of like getting in there and absolutely

00:25:30.440 ruining everything it's also when you think of it it's like a form of privilege like if you

00:25:36.900 see like a family one of those families that everything seems to go their way they're witches

00:25:41.640 because that's the only way that things could possibly go for that go well for them all the

00:25:47.500 time you know what i mean yeah i know some families who are witches in that case just kidding

00:25:52.880 so unfortunately in many parts of africa belief in witchcraft has resulted in the targeting of

00:25:58.700 vulnerable populations including the elderly physically disabled and in certain cases children

00:26:04.480 there are numerous instances of extra judicial executions of mostly elderly and disabled people

00:26:11.400 due to these accusations and we learned all about that in our last episode so the europeans weren't 0.51

00:26:16.280 absolved of this either if there's a sniff of witchcraft anywhere it's obviously going to be

00:26:21.800 like the most vulnerable people in society

00:26:23.860 that are getting the blame for it.

00:26:25.080 Of course.

00:26:25.920 So it's still going on up to the present day.

00:26:29.300 I'm going to give you guys some examples

00:26:30.680 and this is when I'm going to reiterate our content warning.

00:26:33.300 I'll edit in a proper timestamp.

00:26:36.080 Okay.

00:26:37.100 In post.

00:26:38.720 In post.

00:26:39.840 I'll just take it out in post.

00:26:41.640 Content warning.

00:26:42.840 Skip to the other ding at 38 minutes. 1.00

00:26:45.560 In Ghana, outspoken or eccentric women 1.00

00:26:48.100 may be accused of witchcraft.

00:26:50.100 What a shock.

00:26:51.260 Ghana is where my neighbor growing up was from. 1.00

00:26:54.480 Oh, really?

00:26:54.980 Yeah.

00:26:55.540 He's like the dad of the kids that I was like friends with because we live right next to each other.

00:27:00.500 But I got to eat a lot of food from Ghana when I was a kid because he was always cooking really delicious food. 0.98

00:27:07.760 So in Ghana, they have witch camps.

00:27:10.320 If a woman is accused of witchcraft, she can be sent to live there for the rest of her days.

00:27:14.520 They are said to have been in existence for more than 100 years when village chiefs decided to establish isolated safe areas for the women.

00:27:23.280 The people in charge of them are called Tindanas and they are capable of removing an accused woman from her place of residence so that they can shield the community from any witchcraft and also keep her safe from vigilantes.

00:27:35.620 Which is just like incredible.

00:27:37.800 It's kind of a better solution than some of the ones that we're going to see. 1.00

00:27:41.000 and you know what if it was in a really good context going to live with a load of other women 1.00

00:27:46.340 who are um kind of witchy that would be great right it's like you're putting us all together 0.64

00:27:51.300 i mean could be worse no you and i would have a great time there

00:27:55.360 like put me with the witchy women yeah if only it was as utopian as we would hope 0.97

00:28:03.900 right of course it's gonna be like probably like handmaid's tale bullshit or something 0.99

00:28:08.980 The camps are run by the local chiefs. 0.97

00:28:11.360 They can hold up to 1,000 women. 1.00

00:28:13.600 Holy shit. 1.00

00:28:15.140 Yep. 1.00

00:28:15.860 They live in Spartan huts with no electricity or running water.

00:28:19.980 Here we go. 1.00

00:28:20.800 We're going down.

00:28:21.860 For example, the inhabitants of the Cuckoo Camp walk three miles each day to the River Otte, struggling back uphill with heavy pots of water.

00:28:29.880 It's not fun anymore.

00:28:31.400 And when you think a lot of these women are elderly. 1.00

00:28:33.440 Ugh. 1.00

00:28:34.320 Yeah.

00:28:34.640 The women speaking to BBC News said

00:28:37.060 It's a life that they're prepared to endure

00:28:39.100 As long as they are safe

00:28:40.360 They make a living by gathering wood, selling peanuts

00:28:42.960 Or working on nearby farms

00:28:44.780 There is a way out of the camps

00:28:47.000 If you're willing to go through it 1.00

00:28:49.360 Women can undergo tests 1.00

00:28:51.140 To prove that they are not witches 1.00

00:28:52.760 I'm sure the tests are

00:28:54.620 Anyway, just keep talking

00:28:56.780 One of the tests is

00:28:58.460 Cutting a chicken's throat 0.50

00:29:00.020 And then letting it go

00:29:01.880 If the chicken lands on its back 0.99

00:29:03.540 it's a sign that she's innocent i wouldn't want to put my fate in the hands of a chicken that

00:29:08.300 whose throat i just cut me either yeah if that doesn't work and you want another attempt to 1.00

00:29:14.000 proving your innocence you can drink a concoction of chicken blood monkey skulls and soil the woman 1.00

00:29:19.580 must consume this without falling ill within the next seven days in order for yeah they believe 1.00

00:29:25.700 that that will exercise the witchcraft from her so it will like neutralize whatever darkness or 0.68

00:29:31.220 evil is inside her if she does fall ill within the next seven days she may take the exorcism

00:29:37.940 concoction again my god yeah but i mean if you had a family and it meant that you could get out

00:29:44.120 of one of the witch camps go back to your family and prove your innocence hopefully be re-accepted

00:29:48.620 by your family yeah i think you'd do it wow yeah my god this is horrifying this is why i was saying

00:29:56.460 And I put it in the middle because I was like, I can't end on all of this.

00:29:59.540 No, you can't. 0.53

00:30:00.900 In Ikit or Ekit, it's E-K-E-T. 0.81

00:30:04.720 I'm going to say Ikit. 1.00

00:30:05.980 In Ikit, Nigeria, which children are blamed for causing illness, death and destruction,

00:30:12.200 prompting some communities to put them through harrowing punishments to cleanse them of their supposed magical powers? 1.00

00:30:17.880 I mean, children are usually the cause of illness.

00:30:21.520 Yes, definitely.

00:30:23.240 especially when you lump them all together in a in a preschool yeah but this doesn't mean we

00:30:30.640 punish them for it no they don't know what they're doing no they just want to know that

00:30:35.960 like licking each other's boogers is bad children accused of witchcraft are often incarcerated in

00:30:42.560 churches for weeks on end and beaten starved and tortured in order to extract confessions

00:30:47.920 and the most heartbreaking part is many of those children have traits that make them stand out

00:30:52.900 including learning difficulties or ailments such as epilepsy or some of them are just

00:30:57.720 strong-willed so they're just not listening to the parents for whatever reason which could also

00:31:02.360 be a form of neurodivergence yeah would be my reading from it so we're cool ending the episode

00:31:09.700 here now right it gets worse oh my god in malawi in 2010 86 people were jailed with hard labor for

00:31:21.840 practicing witchcraft 61 of them were elderly women seven were elderly men and 18 younger

00:31:27.880 relatives of the other accused they received prison sentences of between four and six years

00:31:33.840 most of the group were accused by children do you remember back in our uh the torseker

00:31:39.780 uh witch trials in the norse episode that was children as well also like salem it was children

00:31:46.900 started it one of our irish cases was children who's listening to these kids i mean it's like

00:31:51.820 believe children but to what point? Yeah the children accused these people of teaching them

00:31:59.060 witchcraft and that's what they were being persecuted for. The strange thing was witchcraft

00:32:03.120 was actually not a crime under Malawian law but the government bowed to public pressure by setting

00:32:08.500 up a committee to investigate instances of witchcraft within the community. In 2023 it's

00:32:14.860 still an ongoing problem and they reckon that it's complicated by the use of folk healers 0.99

00:32:20.180 So people will employ a folk healer

00:32:22.600 And then pressure the folk healer 0.88

00:32:24.800 To indicate through divination

00:32:26.180 Who had caused the disease

00:32:27.800 That they're seeking a remedy for 1.00

00:32:29.760 So then the folk healers

00:32:31.220 Are pressured to give a name

00:32:32.780 And then witch hunt is launched

00:32:34.840 Against whatever name they have given

00:32:36.320 So that's where you can see

00:32:37.600 The traditional medicine

00:32:38.980 Is intersecting with witchcraft

00:32:41.000 But it's like

00:32:41.880 It's so crazy that it's just like

00:32:43.500 Who did this to me?

00:32:45.280 Give me a name

00:32:46.020 And it could be anybody

00:32:47.080 It's kind of like people

00:32:47.880 Who make false confessions

00:32:49.240 it's like if people are just like pressuring you and not letting up like what are you supposed to

00:32:53.280 do as well like if your whole like identity is based on like folk healing you're not going to

00:32:59.360 be like oh i don't know you know you're going to feel like it'll lend you more legitimacy if you're

00:33:04.060 able to give a name yeah right and then we have people who have albinism um so that's a lack of

00:33:11.320 pigment in your hair skin eyes in africa they face multiple human rights challenges including

00:33:17.360 experiences of stigmatization and discrimination and harmful practices related to witchcraft.

00:33:23.460 Since 2006, the UN independent expert received information on close to 800 cases reported

00:33:29.780 across 28 countries, mainly in the African region. Women and girls with albinism and mothers who

00:33:35.400 gave birth to children with albinism are exposed to extreme forms of violence, such as the hacking

00:33:40.980 Of their limbs while they're still alive

00:33:42.760 Oh

00:33:43.360 I know

00:33:45.040 This violence is the result of erroneous

00:33:48.980 Beliefs for example that sexual

00:33:51.000 Intercourse with a woman with albinism

00:33:52.880 Can cure HIV or AIDS 0.96

00:33:54.580 Women are often blamed after giving birth 1.00

00:33:56.920 To a child with albinism and are accused

00:33:58.860 Of being unfaithful or of

00:34:00.920 Bringing a curse to their family

00:34:02.540 Oh my god 1.00

00:34:03.760 I know that's something she has no control 1.00

00:34:06.920 Over and there's nothing wrong with 1.00

00:34:08.740 Having albinism

00:34:09.660 As a result they are rejected by their husbands

00:34:12.740 And abandoned by their communities

00:34:14.420 They are confined to poverty

00:34:16.280 And further exposed to attacks

00:34:18.140 And other forms of violence and discrimination

00:34:20.760 Tanzania

00:34:22.440 Has a dark relationship with albinism 1.00

00:34:24.700 Witch doctors hunt those 0.99

00:34:26.600 Suffering from the condition for their body parts 1.00

00:34:28.920 Which are used in potions

00:34:30.540 To bring good luck and wealth

00:34:31.960 Victims can be kidnapped and then dismembered

00:34:34.540 By hired killers or even sold

00:34:36.220 By unscrupulous family members

00:34:38.020 like family members 0.94

00:34:39.840 Jesus Christ 1.00

00:34:41.180 isn't that fucking 1.00

00:34:43.080 that's insane 1.00

00:34:45.240 body parts are reported to have fetched

00:34:47.600 up to $75,000

00:34:49.000 and the UN estimates

00:34:51.540 around 80 people with albinism

00:34:53.300 in Tanzania were murdered between

00:34:55.160 2000 and 2017

00:34:56.720 wow that is just

00:34:59.240 it obviously shows like the strength of the

00:35:01.540 beliefs here yeah

00:35:03.020 and that there is something

00:35:05.320 driving people to believe these

00:35:07.460 things that they will like sell a family member or like commit such horrific acts of violence

00:35:12.080 against like another human being yeah but like it's just so crazy that it's still like it's

00:35:17.780 still happening like in the modern times yeah and that people haven't figured out that albinism is

00:35:25.060 like a genetic i don't know if you should call it a defect but it's like it's an anomaly yeah

00:35:31.720 it's not it's not anything that anybody can control it just happens and it's yeah it's

00:35:37.660 heartbreaking that like obviously women are going to be living in fear that like it will happen to

00:35:42.220 them right you know that they'll have a child with with albinism or that they will you know

00:35:47.800 somehow be put in danger because of this like it's just so crazy like when you think about like

00:35:54.460 it all just depends on your community like that in i mean there are models with albinism

00:36:00.100 you know what i mean on like magazine covers and like fronting brands and like it all just it's

00:36:05.600 like luck of the draw where you're born you know yeah which is i mean it feels like that with so

00:36:12.420 many things about who we are like if you're trans or if you're gay or if you're oh even little woman

00:36:20.180 yeah let's say like what you've listed there it just shows that your belief is can be just a

00:36:28.400 product of where you are there are communities in western countries that believe horrific things

00:36:34.560 about trans people and about um people all along the lgbtq spectrum right it's probably as i was

00:36:42.140 saying earlier like it's a very much like a dark fascination in western media with things that are

00:36:47.700 happening in africa but i mean like is it really that different when you think about some of the

00:36:52.480 hate crimes that we read about like going on in our culture you know right it's like it's different

00:36:58.040 it's just directed at different people and in different ways yeah and it would be very easy to 0.99

00:37:05.400 just go like oh like you know these communities in like tanzania they can't govern themselves or

00:37:11.520 you know they like they're out of control or like i can't believe they're doing this to people who 0.93

00:37:15.560 they're born that way and they can't help it but like you could say the exact same thing here yeah 0.69

00:37:19.840 right you know homosexuality and things like that is it yeah do we still say homosexuality is that

00:37:26.820 still a thing i think so yeah if it's not a thing i apologize and somebody well i think you you could

00:37:33.520 use the catch-all like queerness right i think that word's being reclaimed i believe yeah so

00:37:38.680 we'll say queerness yeah i also looked up um how albinism occurs it's when one of several genetic

00:37:47.700 defects makes the body unable to produce or distribute melanin these defects may be passed

00:37:53.000 down through families but it means that you inherited the gene from both your mother and

00:37:57.300 your father so both your mother and father have to be carriers of albinism oh interesting which

00:38:02.900 i kind of figured because that's how a lot of genetic disorders work or genetic defects or

00:38:09.820 abnormalities so isn't what you said really interesting that's both the mother and the

00:38:14.940 father yeah and they're probably just punishing the mother who's getting blamed the mother right

00:38:20.080 She's the one being ostracized from her community.

00:38:22.460 Well, because she gave birth to the baby, so it's her fault.

00:38:25.660 Yeah.

00:38:26.200 It's like, no, it takes two to tango.

00:38:27.820 There's just one oven.

00:38:31.500 Right.

00:38:32.320 So we're going to pivot out of all of that darkness.

00:38:35.140 Yay!

00:38:35.840 And just look at a case study of one of the types of witchcraft

00:38:41.840 called the Azande or Zande system of witchcraft.

00:38:46.080 Hell yeah.

00:38:46.500 Once a vast empire, the Zande people were decimated by colonial powers 1.00

00:38:51.140 Because of course they were 1.00

00:38:52.360 Because who wasn't?

00:38:54.780 Because who wasn't?

00:38:55.660 The first European travellers arrived in the 1860s 0.89

00:38:59.200 Towards the end of the 19th century, the Zande came under three different colonial administrations

00:39:05.300 So they were overruled by the Belgian, the French and the Anglo-Egyptians

00:39:10.960 Who are the Anglo-Egyptians?

00:39:13.380 so it's basically egypt as a colony of england oh weird i never knew about that

00:39:22.340 neither did i until i was looking into this but it makes sense and that's why the british museum

00:39:27.500 has so much of egypt shite not shite like on from an egypt point of view but like they just 0.98

00:39:33.400 have fucking everything it's just funny to hear you go egypt's shite it's like when i was going 0.99

00:39:40.860 to london and like our friend david was like do you want to go to the british museum and see all 1.00

00:39:44.780 the stolen shit i'm like kind of but i feel like i'll just get really mad yeah like this was stolen 0.92

00:39:51.900 and this doesn't belong to you yeah give it back you end up doing a protest where you're breaking 0.99

00:40:00.880 stuff and running away with it you're like i'm giving it back to its rightful owners

00:40:04.500 the brits they're at it again anyway i have an entire country here

00:40:08.540 Speaking of the Brits

00:40:11.960 E.E. Evans Pritchard

00:40:13.740 was one of England's foremost social

00:40:15.600 anthropologists, especially known for his

00:40:17.700 investigations of African cultures

00:40:19.660 and for his explanations

00:40:21.700 of witchcraft and magic. His principal

00:40:23.920 legacy is his

00:40:25.360 1937 ethnography

00:40:27.480 It's a hard word to say. Ethnography

00:40:29.880 It is? Witchcraft 0.81

00:40:31.260 Ethnography

00:40:33.260 Because it sounds like I've got a lisp

00:40:35.180 Maybe because of your accent, it's hard

00:40:37.320 maybe I'm just kidding the other day Medardo was like can you do Neeb's accent and I was like

00:40:43.400 because I'm like it's weird because I'm like pretty good at like a good amount of accents

00:40:50.980 and he like he tells me that other people have told me that but then I was like oh oh no I don't

00:40:58.580 think I could do it it's it's funny because yeah like I I think I said it last episode I feel like

00:41:05.700 I used to be a lot better at accents

00:41:07.200 but I've like lost my confidence

00:41:08.860 to do them

00:41:09.600 but most people

00:41:11.860 when they're doing my accent

00:41:12.700 like years ago

00:41:13.760 there used to be this old ad

00:41:15.020 on TV

00:41:15.740 for

00:41:16.540 Donegal Catch

00:41:17.520 which is like a

00:41:18.780 a brand of frozen fish

00:41:20.520 it sounds like a

00:41:21.840 a dating

00:41:22.540 site

00:41:23.540 that would be the most

00:41:25.920 grim dating site

00:41:27.260 Donegal

00:41:27.740 oh my god

00:41:28.800 just loads of guys

00:41:30.940 with sheep in their photos

00:41:32.120 and

00:41:32.640 cars

00:41:33.480 Terrible haircuts 0.98

00:41:35.960 Jesus Christ

00:41:37.020 Oh my goodness

00:41:38.040 But yeah the Donegal Catch ad was

00:41:40.180 It was like these three guys in a fishing boat

00:41:42.660 And he was

00:41:43.740 I can't remember what he's saying

00:41:45.060 That he's like

00:41:45.720 He's been talking to like the

00:41:47.240 The bigwigs 0.99

00:41:48.440 Who own Donegal Catch

00:41:49.840 And he's like

00:41:50.380 He says

00:41:51.200 They're keeping my idea on file

00:41:53.520 In a filing cabinet

00:41:55.080 So literally for about a decade 0.99

00:41:57.480 Anytime somebody from outside Donegal

00:41:59.200 Would meet a Donegal person

00:42:00.420 They'd just ask us to say filing cabinet

00:42:02.240 because it's it's funny the way we say it apparently that is really okay you also like

00:42:08.600 i feel like you have i feel like your irish accent isn't as irish yeah it's kind of like

00:42:18.660 watered down in a way yeah i mean there's all different kinds like killian murphy's accent

00:42:24.640 is technically cork but it's very gentle like i i sure assume that hollywood has watered it down

00:42:30.740 for him yeah but he's very much he's nice to listen to um whereas the cork accent usually is

00:42:36.840 not um so cork people are credited with influencing the jamaican accent because cork people will talk

00:42:48.500 like that and that's the way they go on oh and they have this weird like inflection they sound

00:42:53.680 like the um midwesterners of ireland kind of you know you've been watching fargo i assume that

00:43:01.820 they probably had some influence on that as well it's such a strong accent so which one it's uh

00:43:08.000 the cork accent so i think i think anywhere they go like it's the same as um the newfoundland

00:43:13.620 accent in canada you would think it was irish if you heard them because they use a lot of irish

00:43:19.680 slang because there were so many settlers that's what it sounds like a cork slash limerick accent

00:43:25.740 some people have said that the mid like the heavy minnesotan accent almost sounds irish yeah which

00:43:33.560 is weird yeah and it's it's fascinating because like the accents also can be a little bit of a

00:43:39.600 capsule in time like they reckon like the american deep south accent like say alabama that is closer

00:43:46.920 to the accent that Shakespeare had

00:43:49.240 because

00:43:50.380 when people were

00:43:53.320 travelling to those regions

00:43:55.160 they brought their accents with them and the accent

00:43:57.180 stayed whereas the English accent

00:43:59.400 evolved

00:44:00.020 so I think the Globe Theatre

00:44:03.200 on YouTube if anybody

00:44:04.440 is a nerd and wants to look it up

00:44:06.680 they will do readings

00:44:09.180 of Shakespeare in the original accent 0.74

00:44:11.200 and it sounds like somebody from like Alabama

00:44:13.340 to be or not to be

00:44:15.360 pretty much 0.94

00:44:16.620 yeah that's fucking weird i hate that yeah it's so crazy it's a time capsule of an accent 0.87

00:44:22.980 yeah i heard that too i heard that the accent in or like accents in the u.s are more similar to 0.92

00:44:31.360 what british accents used to be but who could know because none of us were alive at that point

00:44:37.700 now at least i don't think so if you are right to us oh yeah if you are right to the podcast please

00:44:44.480 Are you a vampire?

00:44:46.920 Are you immortal?

00:44:48.900 We'd like to have you on.

00:44:50.320 Are you Laszlo?

00:44:51.100 We have some questions. 1.00

00:44:53.720 So his ethnography, witchcraft, oracles and magic among the Azandi.

00:44:58.580 In retrospect, people who have reviewed the work, they've praised it for being one of the first proper studies into African culture and not just an observation.

00:45:09.840 like he actually went to these regions and interviewed people and spoke to them which pat

00:45:14.960 on the back for that but in retrospect his report is very much colored by his skepticism regarding

00:45:20.920 witches and he spends a lot of time just basically proving that he doesn't believe in witchcraft

00:45:25.940 rather than focusing on the actual beliefs well you know it's very much like but i don't believe

00:45:32.860 any of this which maybe you and i do that on this podcast i don't know just for a modern context

00:45:39.820 the Zandai people are now primarily found in the Northern Democratic Republic of the Congo,

00:45:45.720 South Sudan, and the Central African Republic.

00:45:48.780 Who are they? What are they like? What do they do?

00:45:51.040 Tell me more.

00:45:52.400 We'll start with their medicine.

00:45:54.740 A Zandai people apply generally known common sense cures to minor ailments.

00:45:59.980 All serious diseases are attributed to witchcraft and are accordingly combated by magical medicine.

00:46:05.700 the general term ngua it's n-g-u-a which originally simply meant plant or tree once

00:46:13.620 covered both good and bad medicines of every sort but nowadays it's used to distinguish between

00:46:20.000 protective or curative medicine which is increasingly becoming known by the Arabic

00:46:26.200 term dawah and then ngua is used to refer to vengeful medicine so the bad stuff the poison

00:46:33.420 is that you Billy Bob Thornton

00:46:37.280 not the bad stuff

00:46:39.120 magical medicines are used

00:46:42.380 not only to ward off

00:46:43.660 or avenge

00:46:44.540 misfortune

00:46:45.400 but to obtain

00:46:46.480 successful harvests

00:46:48.060 human fertility

00:46:49.120 good hunting

00:46:50.260 and other benefits

00:46:51.240 including job promotions

00:46:52.560 and success

00:46:53.480 and examinations

00:46:54.480 I reckon that would be so great

00:46:55.900 I would like to avail

00:46:56.960 of all of those things

00:46:57.800 job promotions

00:46:59.520 yeah

00:47:00.160 a good harvest

00:47:01.260 we all like a good harvest

00:47:02.480 we do

00:47:03.000 And if you know people who make these medicines, you can literally just go and buy them from them.

00:47:06.940 Like, it's a proper little economy.

00:47:09.560 That's cool.

00:47:10.460 You've got, like, a little shop, or maybe you just go to their house.

00:47:14.220 I would assume their house. 1.00

00:47:16.100 So, witchcraft permeates every aspect of a Zandi society. 1.00

00:47:20.120 Their perception of it as a powerful force used to harm people. 1.00

00:47:24.080 Witchcraft, oracles, and magic are interdependent elephants.

00:47:30.080 Interdependent elephants.

00:47:30.880 witchcraft oracles and magic are interdependent elements of a belief system thus witchcraft does

00:47:38.400 not interfere with any single chain of mechanical causation but connects different causal chains in

00:47:44.720 such a way that misfortune is generated so that's a bit of a word salad um i'm gonna give you

00:47:52.400 the example

00:47:54.860 or like the practical example

00:47:56.760 that E.E. Evans

00:47:58.980 Pritchard gave. What a name

00:48:00.820 E.E. Evans

00:48:02.640 Pritchard?

00:48:04.800 Yeah, it's like pick a name

00:48:06.500 for God's sake. Why so many E's?

00:48:09.160 Yeah, and it's very hard

00:48:10.780 for me to say. Once again, lack of foresight

00:48:12.800 pick a better name so somebody in the podcast

00:48:14.680 can pronounce it better.

00:48:17.080 To illustrate the

00:48:18.480 way these systems are connected

00:48:20.180 they as and they use a hunting metaphor and it shows the cause and effect sort of relationship

00:48:26.900 so take someone who's killed by an elephant there is a connection between the direct cause of their

00:48:32.300 death for example the elephant and witchcraft because zandy hunters view things as like a

00:48:39.040 two-pronged system they would traditionally kill game with at least two spears so they would say

00:48:46.180 the elephant is the first sphere

00:48:47.900 and that witchcraft is the second sphere

00:48:50.180 and together they kill 0.98

00:48:52.060 the man 1.00

00:48:52.440 so your witchcraft is like your 0.96

00:48:55.960 accomplice

00:48:57.840 at least

00:48:59.200 still trying to follow what's happening

00:49:04.080 so it's almost like

00:49:05.980 you use witchcraft as a weapon

00:49:07.560 yeah but what does this have to do

00:49:10.000 with an elephant attack

00:49:11.120 they just used it as like an example

00:49:14.320 because it's in their culture

00:49:15.860 the way that they would see that it's an example that they would be familiar with

00:49:19.860 am i brain dead what's happening okay i'm trying to like understand this so for example somebody

00:49:27.240 gets killed by an elephant they get killed by an elephant but also witchcraft say witchcraft

00:49:34.940 like say if you swap the word witchcraft with fate okay that's one of the elements like everything

00:49:41.800 has a witchcraft element everything is attributed to witchcraft okay that's kind of what i was

00:49:46.800 confused about is like because if somebody has a heart attack is it a heart attack and witchcraft

00:49:53.140 yes okay no matter what it's on witchcraft if there's any misfortune being generated it's down

00:50:00.460 to witchcraft so well that's nice for witchcraft yeah in like the elephant being killed or elephant

00:50:08.060 killing somebody example the elephant is the vessel but the witchcraft is the driving force

00:50:13.300 so it's like the accomplice yeah that is a very strange belief yeah like everything is caused by

00:50:19.200 witchcraft but i suppose is it much different than people saying well this is in god's hands

00:50:23.980 god caused this right you know what i mean yeah i mean i don't believe in that either so yeah

00:50:31.880 so i guess it's one of those things where it's kind of like if you believe it it's like it makes

00:50:37.080 sense yeah maybe that's why it didn't make sense to me because i'm just like that that doesn't

00:50:42.180 make sense because yeah it's not how i believe you would think that like you have your own

00:50:49.520 there's like a personal accountability or sometimes shit things just happen yeah yeah if you got um 0.94

00:50:56.700 like killed by an elephant you got killed by an elephant it is what it is yeah sometimes we're 0.94

00:51:03.900 just nihilists it's just the way it is nihilist and pine so on the spiritual aspect of their

00:51:12.520 beliefs zandi tend to attribute both animate and inanimate beings a soul bismo under certain

00:51:20.160 circumstances is a soul separable from the body in traditional beliefs people's souls became ghosts

00:51:26.960 once they died and it was thought that both ghosts and the zandai supreme being mbori shared a

00:51:35.180 ghostly nature and lived in earth caverns in the bush ancestor spirits held a correspondingly

00:51:40.600 higher significance in other regions where the word mbori did not exist zaggi referred to both

00:51:47.280 the supreme being and the outside universe in general so that's sort of like mother earth and

00:51:52.600 all the things. Another huge facet of the Zande belief belief system is oracles. When they need 0.96

00:52:00.880 information on a wide range of topics they consult oracles. The Zande chief sought advice from 0.99

00:52:06.380 oracles regarding various military decisions that they had to make prior to the arrival of European

00:52:11.400 settlers. There are three different kinds of oracles used by the Zande. The first is the

00:52:17.060 Bengay or the Poison Oracle

00:52:19.020 which can only be used by

00:52:21.100 men. Boo. 1.00

00:52:23.940 Stay out of this.

00:52:25.960 It's the most

00:52:26.980 potent oracle. No one ever questions

00:52:29.220 this oracle's decisions

00:52:30.460 and they are always accepted.

00:52:33.580 In the ritual associated

00:52:35.380 with using the Bengay Oracle

00:52:37.300 a chicken is given a particular

00:52:39.200 poison and it is subsequently

00:52:41.100 questioned.

00:52:43.060 Whether the chicken dies or survives

00:52:45.220 after receiving the poison

00:52:46.880 for a predetermined period of time

00:52:48.740 will determine the outcome.

00:52:50.320 So they'll attribute, like,

00:52:51.500 if it's dead, it means this.

00:52:53.260 If it survives, it means this.

00:52:54.940 Oh, interesting.

00:52:55.900 For example, in adultery trials,

00:52:58.620 because they had trials for adultery,

00:53:00.040 or they still do,

00:53:00.920 the Bengay oracle can also be used

00:53:02.820 to determine the guilt or innocence

00:53:04.800 of the parties involved.

00:53:07.160 There is a video called

00:53:08.780 Witchcraft Among the Azante by John Ryle.

00:53:11.580 It's very old, but the whole thing's on YouTube.

00:53:13.480 It's an old BBC documentary.

00:53:15.300 It actually shows this happening. 1.00

00:53:16.880 The Bengay Oracle must hear the adultery case 0.98

00:53:19.560 Before deciding whether the woman should live or die 1.00

00:53:22.580 What? 1.00

00:53:23.360 Because of course

00:53:23.800 Yeah

00:53:24.400 So

00:53:24.900 Whether or not she's

00:53:25.700 Oh my god

00:53:26.480 Keep talking

00:53:27.560 Or whether or not she's telling the truth

00:53:31.140 The Bengay Oracle must be consulted by the chief 1.00

00:53:33.640 Once again the chicken is fed this poison 0.98

00:53:35.440 The chicken will perish if the two people had sex while undressed 0.73

00:53:39.760 And that indicates adultery 0.98

00:53:41.100 Alright

00:53:41.660 This will then be brought into court and presented as evidence

00:53:45.420 that the two people who committed adultery were lying.

00:53:48.660 The use of Bengay was already severely discouraged in colonial times

00:53:52.340 and such oracles are now used very rarely and never officially.

00:53:56.140 Doesn't mean it's not happening, it's just not officially.

00:53:58.680 There's also the second type, a termite oracle.

00:54:02.860 Everybody can use the termite oracle, including children.

00:54:07.060 To consult the termite oracle, you take a branch from two trees

00:54:10.720 called the kapoyo and the dakpa.

00:54:12.540 The answer is revealed by the oracle when the branches are placed inside a termite mound

00:54:17.280 and the asker waits all night to see which branch the termites devour.

00:54:21.460 Due to its longer preparation time, the termite oracle is not as well liked as the poison oracle.

00:54:27.640 It just takes way too long.

00:54:30.020 Yeah, it's just so time consuming.

00:54:32.020 All night, for God's sake.

00:54:33.240 We could just let a chicken die right now.

00:54:35.400 And the third type is the rubbing board oracle.

00:54:38.640 It's the least costly but the least trustworthy oracle.

00:54:42.540 It's described as a device resembling a Ouija board made of two small pieces of wood easily carried to be consulted anywhere and at any time.

00:54:51.140 They have a second piece of wood and a wooden handle.

00:54:53.400 If the second piece of wood sticks or catches, the answer to the question is revealed.

00:54:57.880 So basically you have to be attributing things.

00:55:00.700 But once again, that's not as trustworthy because if you know the piece of wood well, you'll know like if this catches, this means yes.

00:55:08.900 Yeah.

00:55:09.420 Because you know it's going to catch.

00:55:11.260 Right.

00:55:11.460 so obviously the azande spirituality azande religion is very much interspersed with

00:55:21.040 christianity within the region there are people who believe in both who practice both and it's

00:55:26.980 sort of people will turn to their traditional beliefs if they have a problem before they will

00:55:33.400 turn to christianity but they still believe in christianity unfortunately the christian

00:55:38.280 influence has ensured that the ghosts who the people usually used to believe were their own

00:55:43.320 benevolent ancestors are increasingly associated with evil. And Mamori is today almost universally

00:55:51.580 associated with the Christian God. So just like we saw with the Celtic religion, they co-opted a lot 0.85

00:55:56.440 of the beliefs and observed them. There are numerous well-established Catholic and Protestant

00:56:01.620 congregations within the Zandi region, and they've had a significant and surface level impact.

00:56:07.980 If surface level impact on traditional beliefs

00:56:10.500 And other aspects of culture 1.00

00:56:11.980 Another name for the Zande witchcraft 1.00

00:56:14.520 Is Mangu 0.96

00:56:15.220 It's seen as an organic phenomenon

00:56:18.080 Hereditary for the male line for men 0.75

00:56:20.260 And the female line for women 0.97

00:56:21.720 So you could only pass it down to your daughter 1.00

00:56:24.240 Okay 0.99

00:56:24.900 Suckers

00:56:27.160 It need not be conscious

00:56:28.660 As action is understood as psychic 0.84

00:56:31.180 A witch sends out his or her 1.00

00:56:33.660 Mabisbo 1.00

00:56:34.600 So the soul that we talked about

00:56:36.060 And it's said to be visible at night

00:56:37.860 and you can set it out to consume other souls yeah or the organs of the victim witches are

00:56:45.900 also believed to cause other kinds of misfortune by less clearly defined means although their mode

00:56:52.100 of action is mysterious witches are not seen as in any way supernatural as but as just part of

00:56:57.560 the normal order of things so it's literally just part of life like they believe in this so

00:57:03.220 deeply yeah it's just like completely integrated into their beliefs yeah they are believed to not

00:57:11.680 be able to operate at a great distance and commoners are usually unable to be witch nobles

00:57:16.620 or vice versa so you can only be witch people within your own like social class yeah interesting

00:57:23.100 there's all these people who online who like you know they could be real or fake i don't know

00:57:29.220 they're like oh i'm a psychic do you want a psychic reading like we can just do a psychic

00:57:34.240 reading like you can like message them and then they'll like message you back and that just seems

00:57:40.220 very weird to me i'm like how can you practice it from that far away i would imagine you'd have to

00:57:45.440 be with somebody in some capacity to kind of like get a sense of the energy from them or something

00:57:52.880 like that i don't know i'm also yeah like a a psychic or a fake who's taking people's money

00:58:00.580 it just yeah it just seems nuts that like you could you could form a like a connection like

00:58:06.760 that from far away yeah so like i said witchcraft is assumed to be at least a factor in all

00:58:12.980 misfortune to remedy it it's really important to identify the witch identification was formerly

00:58:19.260 achieved through divination by witch doctors or by means of various aforementioned oracles

00:58:24.100 witch doctors are largely a phenomenon of the past as are the close associations through which

00:58:29.760 people formally sought both offensive and defensive magic for consultations including

00:58:35.160 the identification of witches recourse in more recent times is often to generally female diviners

00:58:41.740 who are prophetesses of the native zandi christian church so it's an amalgamation of both belief

00:58:48.220 systems. Okay. So

00:58:49.800 they're Christian but also Zandi. 0.99

00:58:53.140 And just to finish

00:58:54.160 us off because I thought it was interesting

00:58:56.020 we have just two little

00:58:58.140 snippets of other

00:58:59.940 Zandi folklore and beliefs. 0.96

00:59:02.140 When a Zandi child is born 0.98

00:59:03.960 at four days old a fire of green 1.00

00:59:06.140 leaves is made at the threshold of their

00:59:08.060 home. The green leaves create a smoky

00:59:10.260 fire and the mother with the infant in her

00:59:12.220 arms sits in the smoke for a short

00:59:14.240 period. The smoke is believed

00:59:16.200 to give the newborn infant strength.

00:59:18.220 After the fire dies out, the ashes and any remaining leaves are strewn on the path leading to the village.

00:59:24.140 This action is believed to protect the infant from illness and death.

00:59:27.560 Oh, I like that.

00:59:29.140 Yeah, it's like an adorable sort of ritual.

00:59:32.380 Right.

00:59:33.700 Yeah.

00:59:35.240 And then just with their, because of the afterlife, if you're curious,

00:59:40.900 the general Azandi belief is that people return to life after death

00:59:45.760 reincarnated as an animal and it's most often a lion

00:59:49.520 the most important royal chiefs may be reincarnated as leopards, pythons, snakes, warthogs or rats

00:59:56.940 some believe that lightning is the reincarnated spirit of a royal clan chief

01:00:01.880 and when an animal dies it signifies the end of that specific life force

01:00:06.860 thus an azandi man will only kill an animal in an act of self-defense nice yeah i appreciate that

01:00:15.380 yeah and that is my episode my meandering episode with lots of tangents on uh african

01:00:24.800 witchcraft with a case study on the azandi magic system i like it it was something i have heard

01:00:33.000 very little about yeah so i really appreciate learning a little bit about it and i think you

01:00:40.500 and i it can help for us to get out of our comfort zone a little bit because obviously we're gravitated

01:00:44.740 towards like white western european american folklore yeah i think for me that a big part

01:00:53.320 of that has been just like not wanting to tread into any territory that could end up you know

01:01:02.040 becoming one of those things where you are sort of like enforcing stereotypes or talking way beyond

01:01:08.660 anything that involves you at in any way yeah or like maybe you're my fear is always that i'll not

01:01:17.240 like do it justice for sure like that i won't i won't have time or i won't like have the

01:01:22.180 have all of the information that it deserves for sure whereas like with a lot of stuff that we've

01:01:28.140 covered on the podcast already we might have a little bit of background knowledge on it already

01:01:31.800 so we know exactly what we're going to look for definitely the hardest thing for this episode was

01:01:36.680 narrowing it down because i really didn't want it like it would be impossible to do an episode on

01:01:41.460 just africa right like it's an entire continent there's so many different and like i actually

01:01:47.140 cut out loads of stuff that i had on different cultures because it was just too much and it was

01:01:51.700 just an info dump right that's why when we were talking about this series i was like this could be

01:01:56.740 huge yeah like an absolutely jagged this could be the whole podcast and we could do multi parts

01:02:04.520 on each episode alone you know right like it could have been like italian magic and it could

01:02:10.160 be three episodes like it could just be huge exactly these episodes are sort of like little

01:02:15.120 samplings of different areas and different beliefs and things like that and as always

01:02:22.760 if there's something that i missed or something that needs corrected or just something that you

01:02:28.640 came across and you're like hey did you know this as well um get in touch and let us know

01:02:32.840 because we're always here to learn and we'll always try and give you a little um

01:02:38.660 shout out or acknowledgement if we remember in the next episode yeah so yeah i hope you guys

01:02:44.980 enjoyed the episode we have more witchy stuff coming to you in two weeks time and we have a

01:02:49.720 guest yeah family plus special guest episode yeah it's gonna be so much fun it is it's our

01:02:57.240 first guest is it really it is we haven't really had any like we've had people like record voice

01:03:03.680 clips for us but we've had your mom record a voice clip not people your mom well no like our

01:03:09.760 ghost story one um like my friend laura wait she had there was a voice clip yeah she recorded a

01:03:17.080 voice clip about her dad

01:03:18.460 seeing a ghost

01:03:20.520 by the river where he

01:03:23.120 worked

01:03:23.480 I was pregnant at that time I'm sure

01:03:27.320 which means I don't remember anything

01:03:29.140 I know we did a ghost episode

01:03:31.040 I know I remember hearing that

01:03:33.140 story didn't remember that it was somebody

01:03:35.080 who recorded

01:03:35.840 it's okay

01:03:38.540 we'll forgive you

01:03:39.540 Laura won't but we'll forgive you

01:03:41.360 sorry Laura

01:03:42.760 I didn't mean it

01:03:46.200 catch us again in two weeks time

01:03:48.460 for our guest spot

01:03:50.700 do you want to say what the

01:03:52.520 episode's about?

01:03:54.060 we are doing witchcraft

01:03:56.520 in Mexico 1.00

01:03:57.300 so that's gonna be fun

01:04:00.100 yeah because I know very little

01:04:02.420 about it

01:04:03.060 for those who don't know

01:04:05.300 all my in-laws are Mexican

01:04:08.080 so 1.00

01:04:08.820 we're gonna step on over to

01:04:12.360 Mexico we're gonna learn a little bit about that

01:04:14.540 even just like conversations with them

01:04:17.120 I don't know there's just like various

01:04:19.160 sort of like

01:04:21.040 folk healing and folk beliefs

01:04:22.740 that they like just have

01:04:24.800 with them

01:04:25.580 so it's going to be interesting to like

01:04:28.820 dive more into that because

01:04:30.820 I just hear like the

01:04:32.080 stuff here and there

01:04:34.460 like when Midardo grabbed

01:04:36.840 my hair and he was rubbing it on his eye

01:04:38.700 and I was like

01:04:39.680 what are you doing

01:04:41.820 yeah so um to hear more things like that uh come back to us in two weeks and make sure that you

01:04:52.360 uh are subscribed make sure that you are following us on all the social medias

01:04:56.800 circle back and circle back i'm gonna circle back and we're gonna catch up 0.90

01:05:01.800 oh i can't i can't sorry i can't i have been neve and i'm emily and fuck yeah folklore 0.86

01:05:11.620 I'm making a fancy 0.69

01:05:16.880 thanks for listening

01:05:20.900 bye

01:05:21.400 I don't want to buy beef out of somebody's house

01:05:37.860 I'm sorry

01:05:39.260 yeah it feels wrong

01:05:40.420 i don't care if the cows are in the field that's even worse i can see how cute they are

01:05:45.160 yeah you're like out there frolicking with the cows looking for your next obsession the creators

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Rowan & Pine: A Feminist Folklore & Mythology Podcast - March 20, 2024

Episode Thirty-Three： African Azande Witchcraft - Donegal Catch

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