00:00:49.980If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:00:55.400Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:04.060Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:04:11.720Amanda and her husband Chris waited to reveal to the world
00:04:14.660they were expecting their first child until she was already born.
00:04:18.200Soon after I gave birth, and of course I didn't immediately tell the world
00:04:22.820that I had given birth because I didn't want to emotionally
00:04:27.080and psychologically navigate the difficulty of tackling how the internet
00:04:32.100and how the broader world was going to react to my daughter
00:04:35.860in those first weeks of having given birth.
00:04:39.740I just needed to be chill and secret and hidden and no one to know.
00:04:46.620But of course, that means that no one knows.
00:04:49.700And I still have to keep doing my job and responding to the world as if I don't have
00:04:54.860a two-week-old baby that's keeping me up at night and who's suckling on me constantly.
00:05:01.440I loved how you chronicled your journey to become parents on Instagram.
00:05:07.280did it have the desired effect you were looking for like like revealing it in that way where by
00:05:12.680the time you were like oh we're expecting your child was actually already here did it have the
00:05:18.140desired effects of just giving you all a little more space to not have to wonder how the internet
00:05:23.480would react to this this change in your life yeah and then it also did um a sort of i i sort of did
00:05:29.800a bait and switch kind of thing like i was um when i was doing when i was sort of revealing on a daily
00:05:36.320basis like week per week photos on my instagram it was sort of like giving that sense to my my
00:05:43.800followers but also to like the greater internet in general because of course i know the tabloids
00:05:48.420are constantly scanning my instagram in order to like steal you know photos of me and strip them
00:05:53.800of context and then vilify me like i was anticipating this um and sort of addressing
00:05:59.180directly this feeling of like anticipation and wanting more and wanting like acknowledging that
00:06:05.680As I'm getting bigger and bigger, it's very human and natural to be like, oh, my God, the baby's next, the baby's next. And then my goal at the very end of it was to show one image of my child and explain why I was not going to be sharing any other photos of her on the Internet because of how I knew both the Internet to be a thing that maybe you should opt into instead of automatically put into by your parents.
00:06:35.680But also because of how much my own social media and Internet life has been mined for content and mined for exploitation by tabloids.
00:06:47.760And I did not want to sort of offer my own daughter on a platter.
00:06:51.600And so I wanted to, like, give the sense of like, yes, we're all in it together and we all are really excited.
00:06:57.440But also this is why I'm sort of withholding something from you.
00:07:00.860And I was hoping to, like, make a point by revealing my pregnancy that way.
00:07:06.200Yeah. I mean, what is it like to be Amanda Knox on the Internet?
00:07:10.320Like, what is that experience like for you?
00:07:13.400Well, it means that I am in, you know, when I came home from prison after I was first acquitted,
00:07:21.920I knew that I was walking into a world where there would be a version of me in people's minds no matter what.
00:07:30.000Like, that's just a reality. People heard of Foxy Noxy now. They have a very clear idea of who I am, except it's not who I am. And so I'm going to be perpetually in conversation with that, like prejudice about me that as I'm walking through the world.
00:07:46.660And it made me acutely aware of how much my identity as it had been constructed, especially
00:07:55.920in the digital space, was not actually a product of my own making.
00:08:00.820And I think this honestly is very, very true of everyone.
00:08:05.480We all aren't totally the authors of our identities, especially online.
00:08:10.540We like to think I think we have this like false sense of security that like, oh, my
00:08:14.780Instagram feed is my own. And oh, you know, when I present myself online, I'll people will
00:08:20.360understand what I mean when I say a thing. And the reality is that's not true. And we all are
00:08:26.740facing certain kinds of prejudices as we encounter people, especially across the distance of the
00:08:31.880Internet. As much as it brings us close, it also keeps us distant from each other because we're
00:08:36.680not physically there um and so i feel like i have a unique perspective of like i feel like i have
00:08:46.700because i've been such like pushed to such extremes through the internet that like utterly vilified
00:08:53.240and also like totally reached out to by people like total random strangers who just say oh my
00:08:58.020gosh i'm so inspired by what you went through and how you've dealt with it like i have i have
00:09:03.600personally felt all like and pushed against all of the edges of the internet and the way that it
00:09:10.460works so i feel like i appreciate in a sort of fine-tuned way how the internet works and how much
00:09:18.420of myself and therefore everyone else is a construct of these like interplaying you know
00:09:26.900impulses and um and that sense of ownership that really really we have a false sense of ownership
00:09:33.480of ourselves online and we really don't own ourselves online actually there's a really
00:09:39.300interesting did you um hear about the the woman who was an artist um and she had like you know
00:09:46.400as an artist does she has an instagram account i think it was called the metaverse her instagram
00:09:51.760was called metaverse right and like facebook decided oh we're the metaverse now so we're just
00:09:57.380going to delete you. And they have that power, which like, again, reinforces that sense of like,
00:10:04.820well, do we own ourselves on the internet? Do we own ourselves on the internet? So W.E.B. Du Bois
00:10:12.700has this concept of double consciousness, whereby Black folks experience consciousness in two
00:10:17.840distinct ways at once, the way that we understand and see ourselves and the way that we are aware
00:10:23.760of being seen by a white supremacist society.
00:10:26.960And I've always felt this concept was really useful,
00:12:14.600this is obviously something that you wanted to use to create to tell the story that you were
00:12:19.560trying to sell. And that story was these two are weirdos. And for you, it must be so difficult to0.63
00:12:25.620retain and protect your sense of self when there are so many forces out there projecting all of
00:12:30.620these competing negative out of context versions of who they think you are or who they want you
00:12:36.000to be or need you to be. Yeah, no, it's true, especially because and I think this is true of
00:12:42.780other people as well. Like it's not like it just limits itself to the Internet space. Like it
00:12:47.720definitely has repercussions in my actual real life. It makes it so that it's difficult for me
00:12:55.760to make friends or to get a regular job. Like these are all ways that the stigma of whatever
00:13:02.520that person that that idea of me that's in someone else's mind impacts me on a on an actual
00:13:09.400level. Like, I actually went to prison because people were, you know, cherry picking moments of
00:13:16.120my life and portraying him in the worst possible light. And like, I went to actual prison for that.
00:13:22.860So like, and you know, to this day, you know, I'm not being put in a jail cell because of people
00:13:29.420talking badly about me on the internet and portraying me as a weird person. But it does mean
00:13:35.200that, you know, if I go and take a meeting with someone, I'm wondering, are they taking a meeting
00:13:40.120with me because they want to see how weird I am or they want to, you know, or are they actually
00:13:45.060seriously interested in my professional work? Do they even know about my professional work?
00:13:49.480Because, of course, the tabloids are really happy to tell stories about me going to parties,
00:13:54.520but they don't ever talk about the work that I do because that doesn't go with their story.
00:13:59.860Right. So I don't know. It's made me acutely aware of how powerful storytelling is. And it's made me think about like, well, who is allowed to tell stories and what what stories are they telling us and how are we complicit in them, the choices they are making as storytellers in selling us a product?
00:18:11.320In the film, the character inspired by Amanda is revealed to have been withholding relevant information about the murder that she has not shared with authorities.
00:18:18.740That she paid the man who actually killed her roommate and told him to get rid of her.
00:21:33.100A lot of like, you know, exonerees, wrongfully convicted people come out of prison and they're
00:21:38.080told, if you don't tell your story right now to us, like, you're never going to have another
00:21:42.980chance and no one's ever going to believe you.
00:21:44.820And of course, you're walking out of prison.
00:21:46.580And, you know, you've been exonerated, but you're still carrying the stigma of the accusation.
00:21:51.260You still are trying to, like, figure out how to get back on your feet.
00:21:54.680And you like to be put on the spot and asked to process the worst experience of your life for someone else's entertainment product is.
00:22:04.720And like the I guess like what I was hoping to do by writing that essay for The Atlantic and, you know, doing like the tweets about Stillwater in particular was because I wanted to point out that.
00:22:16.580this is a way that we are treating real human beings without. And I don't know if the people
00:22:21.140who are doing it realize what the human cost is because they're in their own little like echo
00:22:25.880chamber. Journalists are in their echo chamber and they're thinking, well, I have to get the
00:22:30.320scoop. And if I don't get the scoop now, I'm going to move on to the next story and try to get that
00:22:33.880scoop. Or the, you know, the Hollywood filmmakers are thinking, oh, well, I'm just going to like
00:22:39.800be inspired by something that happened in real life. And then I'm just going to let the writer's
00:22:44.020room, do what it does. And that's just how stories are made. And and why would someone who is my
00:22:49.140inspiration feel any kind of ownership over that? It's my art. And it's like, well, did you did you
00:22:55.020pause to think how this was going to impact the human being who is your purported source or
00:23:02.040inspiration? Like, do you as a storyteller, as someone who is sharing information? Oh, the person
00:23:10.580who is the source of that inspiration or your story, anything. And that's a question. Like,
00:23:16.780I'm asking the question and I'm offering a new perspective, which is, well, maybe you didn't
00:23:22.460think about this before, but here's how it's impacted me. Here's how when you keep telling
00:23:27.920a story over and over and over again about a girl on girl sex crime, you are actually
00:23:34.680misrepresenting what happened to my roommate who was raped and murdered by a man and me who had no
00:23:42.180part in a girl on girl sex crime. So do you do you understand that when you keep telling that
00:23:49.400story over and over again, that is what ends up being the definitive story about me, whether you
00:23:56.880intended that or not? And do you understand that that's also what's happening to people who are
00:24:01.920even more disempowered than me because i can't tell you the number of people that i've tried to
00:24:07.080advise and who've reached out to me saying there's only one person who's ever interested
00:24:12.960like been interested in my story and i don't know if i trust them should i trust them is this my
00:24:19.140only chance to tell my story i don't know if i'm ready yet but they're telling me that i have to
00:24:23.260do it tomorrow and if i don't do it like these are all huge red flags for me that are just showing
00:24:28.940how like other people's lives are being taken from them in various different ways. And the last
00:24:37.460thing I want to see for someone who just spent years in prison for something they didn't do
00:24:42.680is for them to feel like, oh, now my story is being stolen again from me, but in a whole new way.
00:24:50.940We owe exonerees and the wrongfully convicted so much better. Like they deserve so much better
00:24:58.180than as soon as they're out being put in these situations where they can be I mean they're
00:25:08.020already so vulnerable they deserve they don't deserve this and I have to I mean do you think0.75
00:25:13.380it's possible to have a different kind of media landscape for exonerees where they don't feel
00:25:19.420like they have to immediately continuously retell this traumatic thing that happened to them or else
00:25:25.700You know, maybe the tabloids will make up their own story about what happened.
00:25:29.100You know, do you believe in a world where a different kind of landscape is possible for
00:25:52.340because I think that there's been this longstanding perspective that if you are at the center of your
00:25:59.980own story, you can't have a storyteller's perspective of that story. You can't have
00:26:07.320authorship over your own story because you're going to be biased or you're going to misrepresent
00:26:12.760things and you can't be objective. But first of all, I want to point out that the storyteller
00:26:19.740is not by definition objective just because they aren't personally in the story doesn't mean that
00:26:26.300by telling the story they aren't putting themselves in the story and they aren't
00:26:30.160approaching that story from a certain perspective and it's also totally discrediting the idea that
00:26:36.820someone who's at the center of their own story might have a valuable perspective about it like
00:26:42.680they might having had felt this human experience firsthand have some interesting human things to
00:26:50.300say that is worth being a part of the story so i'm just trying to like convey that yeah not all
00:26:58.100of us are professional storytellers but professional storytellers can help people tell their own
00:27:05.740stories and of course everyone should be held accountable to the truth like as long as we're
00:27:10.920not, like, making up crazy, you know, conspiracy theories to account for non-evidence. Like,
00:27:16.660you know, evidence still matters and the truth still matters. But it's okay for you to give,
00:27:23.180like, as a storyteller, to offer someone the opportunity to voice their own experience.
00:27:28.440And that's still a valuable story. Oh, absolutely. You know, we're all experts in our own experiences.
00:27:34.620And I hate this myth of objectivity that if you're close to a story or if it's happening to you or to your community, you couldn't possibly be objective.
00:27:44.560I feel like it's really, at least in journalism, I feel like it's really been used to create a really like sexist, racist, classist narrative that like, oh, it is straight white men who are objective.
00:28:22.620You know, so just take ownership of like be self-aware, like do enough like self-auditing to be aware that maybe I might be approaching this story or that story from a certain perspective and let that be like acknowledge that in your own storytelling process and as you are encountering the person because they might be coming from a whole completely new perspective that you don't have access to.
00:28:45.800And if you are automatically defining yourself as the objective party and them as the subjective party, you are automatically making like doing a hierarchy of whose prejudice and whose bias counts more than another's.
00:28:59.740I find it interesting that your story is not often framed as a story of someone who was wrongfully convicted and then exonerated. Right.
00:29:09.320I think there are probably so many people out there who, like, think they know the Amanda Knox story, you know, heavy scare quotes, but they probably, you know, don't know Meredith Kircher's name.
00:29:21.820They probably don't know the name of the Italian prosecutors who, like, bungled this case.
00:29:27.000They don't know the name of the actual guilty party.
00:29:30.060And it's just so interesting to me how what you went through obviously, like, was a huge part of your life.
00:29:38.600But the way that that story is told often, I don't know, it at the same time denies agency of the actual major players of what happened to your roommate.
00:29:49.400while also giving you this like outsized role in that story it's like like why aren't why aren't
00:29:57.520these other hugely like huge major parties of what happened why are they not household names
00:30:03.100why are they not the names that are like connected to what happened there why is it just you who like
00:30:07.580actually was kind of a like not like side character and all of that yeah that's one of the things that
00:30:14.460i've always like pushed back against with people is like when you when you think amanda knox the
00:30:20.040first thing that you think of is murder because that's you know that's ultimately what it comes
00:30:25.580down to amanda knox murder and my still like i have never witnessed a murder i've never participated
00:30:33.320in murder i've never been you know the the closest i've been to murder is i maybe what could have
00:30:40.020been murdered that night if I hadn't met Raffaele five days earlier and was spending the night at
00:30:44.560his house like that's that's my experience of murder and the fact that that action that horrific
00:30:53.100action that that happened to first of all my friend Meredith who is the victim and people
00:30:59.120don't remember her the fact that that action is not actually prescribed to her murderer and instead
00:31:05.380people think of me when they think of her murder that just goes to show that it really does matter
00:31:11.140what you call a thing and when you call meredith kircher's murder the amanda knox saga you are
00:31:16.160doing a disservice to the truth because i played no role in that my the amanda knox saga for me
00:31:22.820is i'm on trial for something i didn't do and now i'm trying to like reclaim my life in a world that
00:31:28.700doesn't want me to reclaim my life. You know, like that's that's my experience. But like
00:31:34.440it drives me crazy that it's it's so, so often that the person who actually committed this crime
00:31:43.780is referred to as an afterthought. Like he's either not named at all. He's called the other
00:31:50.420guy who was accused, you know, whatever. Like no one cares about that. And to me, that conveys
00:31:57.820that like people don't actually really care
00:33:48.060But again, like when the Stillwater conversation was happening, I think something that was so frustrating is it's not like you're not like you.
00:33:55.440Yeah, you have a great podcast that's critically acclaimed.
00:34:10.480It's not like you're making it difficult to find yourself or.
00:34:15.640And it's not it's not like you're not having these public conversations about who you are and your story and your experience.
00:34:21.300And I think it is people just don't want to hear it.
00:34:24.000It's it's more gratifying to talk about you than it is to give you space to talk about your experiences.
00:34:31.540And I think that's so clear. I don't think people I just think that people are just really wrapped up in the story they have in their head and retelling that over and over again.
00:34:40.520And I really appreciated that you pointed out that that film, they weren't just fictionalizing it. They were kind of parroting the salacious, you know, girl on girl sex crime like lie that that was told to have you locked up for so many years.
00:34:59.740And that's not apolitical. That's not neutral. That's not fictionalizing something that was not like it's different to. I guess I feel like the fact that they relied on what was the dominant narrative that led to you being falsely imprisoned is so hurtful, but also like deeply political and not neutral.
00:35:19.600Like, that's a real choice. And to not even acknowledge or deal with that, again, is a real, you know, just a real choice. Like, that's it. I guess I didn't like how in that interview, I think it was Matt Damon, he was like, oh, well, you know, we got to thinking, like, what if it was like this? And it's like, no, you just you just parroted the incorrect lie that led to you being falsely imprisoned.
00:35:43.180Yeah, no, they it was just lazy storytelling on their part. Like they were like, oh, we're inventing things. And it's like, you didn't invent shit, my friend. Good job. You invented France as opposed to Italy. Like, good job.
00:35:55.980it's lazy it's lazy it's lazy yeah and it's too bad because like honestly again my position in
00:36:05.200all of this has been i'm really easy to talk to and i'm actually like i think we could have a
00:36:10.320really worthwhile conversation here i i feel like maybe i was overlooked but like here's an
00:36:15.500opportunity to not overlook me and that's okay like let's talk about that and nothing just
00:36:21.160crickets still today nothing oh yeah nothing nothing yeah it you know they're they've moved
00:36:27.360on to the next story and it doesn't matter that there are repercussions in my life so
00:36:32.900i mean it's just insane like how like how removed do you have like you're a storyteller your whole
00:36:39.920job is to be about like empathizing with the human experience enough to be able to tell a story that
00:36:45.740resonates with people and yet like here's a real human being going like hey hey
00:36:52.700i'm over here call me and no dms are open like i'm really nice
00:37:03.980i don't know it's it's um it's a fascinating experience and i feel like again it's it seems
00:37:14.200like it's this weird extreme thing because it's not every day that, you know, someone's life is
00:37:19.640turned into a Hollywood movie. But I feel like there are versions of this that happen all the
00:37:27.440time to people all the time. What story is being told about you and what circumstance by whom and
00:37:33.720how are they not allowing you to be a part of the conversation like that? That happens all the time
00:37:40.720to lots of people and it's something that i always have a little bit of a red flag for
00:37:45.200because it just seems like it's it's one it's it's gaslighting honestly it's when you're not allowed
00:37:52.720to have a voice in the story that defines who you are it you basically are being told by the rest
00:38:04.240the world that you don't you don't matter and your perspective doesn't matter. And we're going
00:38:10.800to tell you who you are and what you mean and why you matter. More after a quick break.
00:38:25.040Behind every night spent making the kids lunches, there's a lot of suspense. Will they finally eat
00:38:30.100the veggies will the pesto survive the first bite will the lunchbox come home empty half full or
00:38:35.760come home at all and will you finish episode eight before you're done slicing the cucumbers
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00:39:48.880Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.0.98
00:39:53.420I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:39:57.980I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:40:05.420They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:40:09.380But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:40:12.820They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:40:15.960Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:40:24.900If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:40:30.840This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:40:43.320I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:40:50.440I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed, so obsessed.
00:40:54.020From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:40:59.960It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:41:07.440Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:41:17.040Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:41:32.160Who gets to have a say in their own story?
00:41:35.060In a media moment where we're looking back on the way that women from Pamela Anderson to Monica Lewinsky were unfairly maligned by society, it's a question worth asking.
00:41:43.640And I first reached out to Amanda because I saw her tweets about the New York Times documentary Framing Britney Spears.
00:41:49.060Now, she wasn't condemning the film or the filmmakers, but rather posing a complex question.
00:42:40.300And it's a big part of why she agreed to do it in the first place.
00:42:43.560They had the ethical sense to understand
00:42:45.500that I would be deeply impacted by that film
00:42:47.540and that my consent and participation mattered.
00:42:50.520They decided it was better to make no film than one without me, she tweeted.
00:42:55.520When I first reached out to you, I was in the process of researching an episode for the podcast about the Free Britney movement.
00:43:02.260And when I saw your tweets, it really, so I stopped my research because one of the points that you made was, you know, hey, this documentary was made without Britney Spears' consent.
00:43:14.040and I really had to have to really have a deep think about what that meant right like I was
00:43:21.420very happy that Britney Spears's conservatorship was overturned I was happy to see the role that
00:43:26.460that documentary maybe played and some and some like public awareness of it but I never even
00:43:31.340thought to ask what does it mean that this that this content was just released without her say
00:44:08.560How do we find a balance to be like, oh, well, maybe it's good that this documentary helped her overturn her conservatorship, but it's also fucked up that it happened against her will.0.70
00:44:19.460Like, isn't that just another way of violating someone who's already been like so maligned and violated?0.78
00:44:24.280Yeah. Yeah. Like did Britney ultimately want her, you know, her like family drama to be so public because like she didn't get a choice in that.
00:44:36.620Right. Did it make a difference in her trial? Is she grateful to all the people who supported her? Of course. But it is interesting to me. And I think it is, again, one of those moments where it's worth pausing and asking, like, wait, what is her perspective in all of this?1.00
00:44:54.180like since everything is going to be impacting her the most shouldn't she have some kind of say
00:45:03.440and um and you know i'd be curious to know like how britney feels today about the fact that there
00:45:11.820were documentaries made without her consent and yet they played a you know a supportive role
00:45:19.340towards her like that's an interesting you know mental space to be in in terms of like
00:45:25.280over the course of your own life again there's it's but again it's almost like a hint of that
00:45:29.620conservatorship right like we know what's good for you so we're gonna do it even if you don't
00:45:35.680want us to like oh it's just uh it hurts me it's a weird it's like a weird thing to have to unpack
00:45:44.800Right. And I guess I I'm I want to see more public like media makers wrestling with it because I feel like, yes, it's a complicated square to circle.
00:45:59.060But I want to I want to see that you're that you're aware of this, you know, aware of this dichotomy as a thing that exists and the thing that we should be asking questions about and pushing up against.
00:46:08.320Exactly. I think that if there were that again, it's that like self-auditing, that introspection, that awareness that you could have that your actions could have unintended consequences and that you are thinking about the people who like, you know, you presumably if you're a documentary filmmaker who's making a documentary about Britney, you can presumably assume that whatever it is that you end up doing is going to impact her.
00:46:36.000so like maybe think about how and why and and how you can mitigate potential harm because that's
00:46:45.800what you don't want to do as a as a storyteller you don't want to just harm other people for the
00:46:50.660sake of a story I mean at least I would hope so yeah and I mean I think in this moment where we're
00:46:58.160really interested in like looking back at the way that meet the way that media our media ecosystem
00:47:04.900harmed women unfairly i i so i full disclosure live for a like you're wrong about style podcast
00:47:14.680as like oh let's go back and like revisit but part of me wonders if we are so busy looking back
00:47:21.220that we're not seeing the ways that's happening now like okay britney spears was unfairly maligned
00:47:26.700you were unfairly maligned jenna jackson unfairly maligned all these people but are we are we like
00:47:32.620what's the point of that kind of content if it does not prime us to see it happening before our
00:47:36.780eyes in real time like i don't want to have to wait five years down the line for the podcast
00:47:41.620that tells us not that the media shouldn't be profiting off of the pain and you know
00:47:47.160shittiness to like a vulnerable person i don't want to have to wait for a look back retrospective
00:47:52.460on that what's the point of this media if it doesn't allow us to do this now that's a really
00:47:57.280great point. And I think that that is that is another way that if we are going to be spending
00:48:04.420time looking back, because I think it's a worthwhile thing to do. Let's not do it just
00:48:09.980for a sake of like nostalgia. We can all feel good about ourselves today because we're not doing
00:48:15.680that like they did in the 90s like that. There's the danger of it approximating that where it's
00:48:21.540like, oh, man, we were terrible to women in the 90s. We can feel total. We can pat ourselves on
00:48:26.480the back today. There is nothing wrong with the way that we're treating women today, because look1.00
00:48:30.620at what we did in the 90s. Like it's important to to take stock of how things were, how things
00:48:38.880have changed, but also how things haven't changed. And if we can see echoes of what happened in the
00:48:48.220past happening today and and try to be better. Definitely. I mean, this brings me to one of my
00:48:53.480last questions you know what kind of world like just given what we know about how the media and1.00
00:49:00.800the internet can treat women what kind of world do you want for your daughter to grow up in and1.00
00:49:06.120like what will you tell her about your life and what will you tell her about the kinds of
00:49:10.120the kinds of experiences that she can expect from the world yeah well what I'm hoping that we're
00:49:17.420heading towards is a world where everyone is more media literate and understands not just how the
00:49:26.140industry functions like how how does it even just how do you on a day-to-day basis put content out
00:49:32.960into the world like well there are you know there are incentive structures and there's a monetary
00:49:38.180aspect to it and like there's a whole business side of it that's important to know when you're
00:49:43.820consuming information. There's a human psychological role to it, like what stories, quote,
00:49:49.640resonate with people and with whom and why. Why do certain stories get uplifted and others get
00:49:56.260squashed? Why are some people's stories just, you know, discarded as if they aren't valuable and
00:50:01.180other people's are constantly in the headlines? Like these are all really important questions
00:50:06.620that I think as consumers we should be asking because we as consumers ultimately have the
00:50:13.420power to say, you know what, I'm not going to tune into your style of content anymore. I'm going to
00:50:19.200tune into something else that I think is more responsible or ethical or truthful. And that
00:50:26.660that's worthwhile. So I hope that that's the world that we're gearing towards, because as
00:50:34.520social media has democratized content creation, we all feel like we can have a hand not just in
00:50:42.140consuming media, but also in producing it. That's my hope. I don't know if that's actually going to
00:50:48.020happen, but I'm hoping that I'm going to let my daughter sort of take the lead in, in how much
00:50:58.580she wants to know and how important my experience is going to be for her. Because one thing that
00:51:03.820I'm worried about is her feeling like, you know, as much as I feel very much in the shadow of the
00:51:09.960worst experience of my life. Like, I don't want her to feel like she's forced to live in the shadow
00:51:15.160of the worst experience of my life. She should be able to have her own life if she wants. And if,
00:51:21.460and I, I hope to raise her as a very curious, thoughtful person. And so I, my guess is that
00:51:27.760she's going to be curious. And of course, if she's going to be coming to the Innocence Network
00:51:31.800conference with me every year, meeting other wrongfully convicted people, like she's going
00:51:35.560to start to notice that there's a there's an interesting pattern happening here like oh you
00:51:41.200were in jail you were in jail why has everyone been in jail you know she's gonna notice and
00:51:46.420she's gonna ask questions and i i think i'm going to be honest with her 100 of the time
00:51:54.980always answer her questions um but of course i'm not gonna like give a six-year-old a tutorial on
00:52:02.420crime scene footage you know like so yeah i'll wait till she's seven when we're all that's that's
00:52:09.720the appropriate age so yeah i think that like i want her to feel like she it's not a taboo subject
00:52:17.660it's absolutely like anything about me and my experience is on the table for her should she
00:52:23.900need it and want it um but that she doesn't need to feel like it needs to be an important part of
00:52:30.840her life. Because honestly, like no one's trauma, no one should feel like they are bound to their
00:52:36.920trauma as if it's the most important thing in their life either. So I think that's another
00:52:42.440important thing. Yeah, that's such a good point. There are so many interesting pieces of who you
00:52:50.840are that like, that's just one of a quilt of who you are. And, you know, thinking about your
00:52:57.940daughter you've written so beautifully about sort of long prison sentences and for you how it was a
00:53:03.540kind of like forced infertility do you see criminal justice and reproductive justice as like linked in
00:53:09.120that way absolutely and i think that nobody's noticing that um i mean and it's and it's hard
00:53:16.160for like the it's hard for men too right like it sure men are no are not limited in that way like
00:53:22.600they don't have a very specific window when they're fertile but they do have a very specific
00:53:26.760window when they're capable of forming the kinds of relationships that would turn into families0.57
00:53:33.660even. And so like for me, I think that especially with the way that there are prison sentences in
00:53:40.040this country where they just are nonsensically long, like no one should be sentenced to 300
00:53:46.200years in prison. Like it just doesn't make any like just just be reasonable. Like let's let's
00:53:51.280consider what the sentence is going to mean for an actual human being's life and take that into
00:53:57.180consideration when we're thinking about sentencing. And I think that the ways that women have sort of1.00
00:54:04.120been pushed into a justice system that was built by and for men and their needs and physical
00:54:13.080realities aren't really taken into consideration in that process is an incredible disservice to
00:54:20.140and it's an incredible harm that we're committing as a society like it it matters that by sentencing
00:54:28.560someone to such a long amount of time you are effectively limiting not just their freedom but
00:54:35.940so much more about their life that is fundamental to being a human being um like i i never should
00:54:45.560have faced the prospect of never getting to have a family of my own for because I was accused of a
00:54:52.320crime I didn't commit. And yet I did. Well, Amanda, thank you for using this platform to speak up for
00:55:01.140other wrongfully convicted folks. And even rightfully convicted folks, because like here,
00:55:08.000the other reality is like a lot of the women that I met in prison, they did commit crimes.0.89
00:55:12.480They were also victims of crime before they ever committed crimes. And how is it that society had let them fall through the cracks and had refused them good opportunities to be productive people and just punished them in the process?
00:55:27.780Like the amount of like, you know, I was one of the most fortunate people in that circumstance.
00:55:34.420And I and I say that as an innocent person who was wrongly accused and put in prison.
00:55:53.160I feel like every time you talk to women who are in prison, it's like, oh, you were obviously coerced or like you are a survivor of domestic violence or trafficking.
00:56:05.800Like it is. And just I mean, I'm I'm this is such a long a longer conversation, but I'm right there with you.
00:56:13.920I think like when you actually look at who we are locking up, sometimes for like just comically long amounts of time and the circumstances they came from, it's clear that we are not making our community safer.
00:56:31.380Well, it's it's a difficult thing to look at because I think a lot of us would just like to think, oh, we'll just put the bad people in somewhere else.
00:56:38.580We'll just take bad people and put them away.
00:56:40.560And it's like, that's that's not it's not just good people and bad people. It's not just who gets put away versus who doesn't get put away is not doesn't also fall neatly along those lines. Like, let's be real. It's way more complicated than that. And and oftentimes it's actually just the most vulnerable people who end up getting put away.
00:57:02.780Amanda, where can folks keep up with Labyrinths and all the amazing work that you are doing?
00:57:08.420Well, thank you for asking. You can go to KnoxRobinson.com to follow all of the work that me and my husband do. We have a Patreon, so Patreon.com slash Knox Robinson. You can follow me on Twitter at Amanda Knox and on Instagram at Amama Knox.
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