00:00:49.980If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:00:55.400Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:04.060Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:05:30.720And I've certainly asked myself the same one.
00:05:33.840But I think I have a kind of unique vantage point in that I lived through like a con firsthand.
00:05:40.120And I know that's sort of how it works.
00:05:42.420It's sort of this larger than life flashy illusion, like a magic trick that is meant to grab your attention so that while you're busy sort of puzzling over it, you know, whatever sort of business is going on behind the scenes can can happen without too much focus or analysis, I suppose.
00:06:01.640So I think there's a fascination with, you know, tricksters and with like it is in many ways like like watching a magician at work and so that people want to want to watch as like a voyeur to understand where this light of hand occurred, how someone fell for it.
00:06:18.600And, you know, especially in this age where it is kind of hard with the Internet and with all of these different media forms coming at us to discern between fact and fiction, to get to watch something in an arena that seems pretty low stakes because it's billed as entertainment.
00:06:36.700I think people enjoy maybe like they don't think about it that hard, but they enjoy getting to see something that straddles that divide on purpose.
00:06:46.120In talking about the Netflix show Inventing Anna, you write really compellingly about this, that one of the reasons why the show is kind of dangerous is that it does sort of aim to straddle that line.
00:06:59.260Each episode starts with, this is a completely true story, except for the things that are fictionalized.
00:07:04.620And I think as a viewer, you might not really know that you're acting like it can be used as a way to heavily, deeply fictionalize something that actually people actually experience.
00:07:17.480And I think that the purposeful straddling of that line of facts and fiction and kind of blending them can be a little bit dangerous because the stakes do feel low.
00:07:28.340I mean, you've said it in some ways better than I can say it myself, but that's exactly right.
00:07:33.360And it's kind of disheartening. I mean, I appreciate that you're speaking up about this, too. And other people are certainly paying attention now. But I think part of the reason I chose to continue talking about this, which, you know, the story, which is well and truly behind me and I would love to move on from and not be discussing today.
00:07:53.160But the reason I'm speaking up is because I see something happening that sets a precedent that I do think is troubling and that I do think is dangerous.
00:08:00.300And I do think it requires viewers to ask questions probably more so than we can expect a media company who profits from it to do.
00:08:09.520But the Netflix show Inventing Anna does do this thing where it sticks that label up as a disclaimer, but it blends factual information with things that are completely made up, as it says it does, but it makes viewers go online, look things up, see that some things are true.
00:08:28.580And then that creates this like foundation of credibility that allows them to think, well, if this is true, I believe the narrative that they've woven with, you know, this big, big budget production and all this like whistles and bells.
00:08:41.620And like, how compelling is that? You know, storytelling is really powerful. And I think that's why it requires a level of responsibility.
00:08:48.600I think people are apt to believe things that they watch in stories or that they connect to in terms of a narrative more than sometimes dry facts that they hear on the news.
00:08:58.580Yeah, you know, you describe this in your book in talking about the way that Anna's crimes have been glamorized, in part by places like Netflix, that you see it as a big picture problem.
00:09:09.360Is that sort of what you are referring to, like that sort of the big picture problem that you're describing?
00:09:14.920Yeah, that I think specifically I have become very mindful of the ways that our attention can be commodified.
00:09:22.280So when Anna was released from prison, the first time before she was detained by ICE, I was asked to do a bunch of media appearances commenting on her release. And I declined because I was like, why, you know, why would I do that? I've already written the book. It's out. I've moved on.
00:09:40.920And I have no interest in sort of coming out and speaking or hypothesizing about what somebody may or may not do after jail.
00:09:49.600Like, all we can do is, like, hope that, you know, Godspeed, like, I hope this doesn't happen again.
00:09:53.760But while I was declining things, I saw that she was being given various media platforms.
00:09:59.940And that would be fine if she had something productive to say.
00:10:04.320But it felt as though these different outlets were just giving her space to rationalize her behavior, to continue peddling belief in this, you know, fictional, in my mind, like this fictional intention, you know, like I was really going to do it.
00:10:21.160I didn't mean to never pay someone back, like all of these things that I believed for far too long and that she's now getting to sell to a broader audience.
00:10:29.040So as I was watching that, what I realized is our attention to her, our attention to people like this, our attention to things is what gives them influence and power.
00:10:41.460So when I say it's a big picture problem, I think what I'm really referring to is the attention economy and the way that we think we're watching something just without stakes.
00:10:51.620but our viewership in itself is actually something that does have a monetary value and also a value
00:10:58.480in terms of our our own behavior our beliefs um and and how how we move through the world
00:11:06.940you write about how Anna would be given these like very convivial interviews where it's clearly
00:11:13.960the interviewer was like wow this Anna this Anna Delvey like can you can you can you believe it
00:11:19.260And they would have these buzzy headlines. And I guess part of me is like, how can you print the words of somebody who lies? If you're a journalist or a reporter, like somebody asked, oh, are you going to try to talk to Anna for this interview? And I was like, why would I? Why would I want to talk to somebody who lies?
00:11:37.420Yeah, I mean, I think there's a way to do it. There's actually a 60 Minutes Australia interview. I thought it was, I mean, it's, of course, still kind of sensationalized around the edges, but at least the viewer had a very firm, like, framing device in which he, you know, it's the same way I think the most successful interviews with someone like Donald Trump were conducted, where you have a baseline foundation of truth, fiction, you know, some degree of commonly shared right, wrong.
00:12:07.420when it comes to like ethics or morality and you actually try to hold someone to account.
00:12:12.140That's interesting. And then I think it's actually like journalism. But I think what I do find
00:12:18.760puzzling or I understand it, but I think I find it problematic is the way that so much of our
00:12:25.860media and our news sources today are driven by not by quality, but traffic. So places are
00:12:32.540incentivized to come up with these clickbait headlines with these really sensationalized
00:12:37.580recaps of you know you know events that in real life were were interesting but you know are so
00:12:44.160much more interesting if you embellish these details it and it was troubling for me because
00:12:49.660watching like even during the trial the way people were reporting on what she was wearing or like
00:12:54.220you know oh she's so audacious can you believe like like yeah she is that's what you know that's
00:12:59.440drew me into the friendship too. Here's this person you can't quite figure out. She's wacky.
00:13:05.820She's really confident. She's doing these things that kind of break your brain and make you sit
00:13:11.920there and stare and kind of ask questions. But that's how it works. While we're doing that,0.99
00:13:16.260no one's asking, where's the money coming from? What's the impact of this person's behavior and
00:13:23.260why does it matter? According to BBC News, which filed a Freedom of Information Act request,
00:13:29.180Netflix reportedly started paying Anna before she had ever even gone to trial.
00:13:33.700They paid $30,000, which went toward paying her lawyer.
00:13:37.800Then, Netflix paid for the rights to adapt Anna's story into the show Inventing Anna.
00:13:42.960In total, Netflix reportedly paid Anna $320,000.
00:13:48.700Now, that money was initially frozen to give her victims a chance to sue.
00:13:53.580And even though some of her victims did file claims for a portion of those funds,
00:13:57.560whatever is left over that didn't go to paying the lawyers
00:20:13.000can be laundered into a more legitimate platform.
00:20:15.740For instance, Netflix's The Tinder Swindler, a documentary that chronicles Simon Levev, who posed as a wealthy jet-set playboy by duping women that he met on the dating app Tinder, out of thousands of dollars.
00:20:30.780Levev's con involved convincing women to loan him money through outlandish lies.
00:20:36.720And since the documentary, Levev is clearly trying to parlay the attention and notoriety from his con into a pathway of a more legitimate, not to mention lucrative, platform.
00:20:48.100So as Anna once intimated to a BBC reporter, it's kind of hard to say that crime doesn't pay, because it seems like in our current media landscape, it kind of does.
00:20:58.300do you think that we live in a climate where people who scam and lie people like like she was
00:21:05.320as you said she was convicted of this so it's not like it's some big secret it's not like it's you
00:21:08.740saying this exactly these are just the facts of what happened i feel like we are allowing pathways
00:21:16.000to legitimize these people and like you know maybe it started as a con and it started as a scam but
00:21:21.540by the end of it you'll have money and an audience and people who are interested to see what happens
00:21:26.560next, and that you can sort of legitimize
00:21:28.640that. Like, for instance, if you watch the Netflix
00:21:56.560Are we creating, are, is the media creating pathways for folks to legitimize what started out as a scam or a con or a lie?
00:22:08.880Absolutely. And I think, you know, looking back, there's actually a really interesting book about this called The Attention Merchants by this man called Tim Wu.
00:22:18.200with the rise of reality television and this model of normal person to celebrity as a model
00:22:25.740for business. And then it evolved into social media where people, it wasn't like winning the
00:22:33.320lottery. Everybody too could do this if they found a way to brand themselves, to market themselves
00:22:38.720that was compelling enough to attract attention. But as we've just realized, unless you have some
00:22:43.700kind of outlandish, loud shtick or personality, like no one is really paying attention. And I
00:22:49.700think this is like now evolved into curation, not just through digital media, but here are these
00:22:55.600people. And these people have always existed, mind you, but we live in an age where that kind
00:23:00.620of behavior is really rewarded. You know, it's not an age where it's about, you know, morality or
00:23:07.020like, like, which, which sounds so like Pollyanna-ish and hokey, but it's very much about
00:23:13.160the sort of the cult of personality and who attracts our attention.
00:23:16.380And like, obviously who we, you know, voted our president is a testament, testament to
00:25:48.240And then that's not great either, because there are still things that should be believed.
00:25:51.500So I do agree that it is a disservice to everybody because it creates a system in which it's really hard to tell truth from fiction.
00:25:59.580In my day job, I do a lot of work combating conspiracy theories and things like that and trying to understand why people fall prey to them.
00:26:06.320And a big part of it is just complete lack of trust in media institutions.
00:26:11.940And I think that's a big reason why it's like I can understand why somebody would just lose all trust in media when that is the thing that fuels it.
00:26:20.520Yeah, absolutely. And there is a lot of similarity. Obviously, I mean, stakes are just sort of it's apples and oranges when it comes to like someone like Anna and like masculine conspiracy theories.
00:26:31.240But there is similarity in the way that both, I guess, like lie structures or manipulation techniques rely on framing arguments in a way that makes them almost irrefutable because they speak to these sort of like cryptic abstracts or things that you literally just can't disprove, even though they are false.
00:26:58.380And I think it's really hard for people, especially if you're isolated, to keep your feet on the ground and understand what's happening if you're not familiar with that type of behavioral pattern.
00:27:11.900After the disastrous trip to Marrakesh, Rachel was left with a $62,000 credit card bill that her credit card company eventually forgave.
00:27:19.880But before that, Rachel struggled to pay rent and took loans from loved ones to cover bills to get by.
00:27:26.280She eventually published her book about what she learned from her relationship with Anna, called My Friend Anna,
00:27:31.180and sold the rights to develop her story for television to Lena Dunham at HBO.
00:27:36.240Rachel takes a lot of criticism for, quote, profiting off of her relationship to Anna.
00:27:41.580So I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned, which is that you sometimes take criticism for the fact that you, you know,
00:27:47.580published a book about your experiences, you've written about your experiences. I interviewed
00:27:51.820Amanda Knox, the exoneree, you probably know who she is. And something that she said in that0.98
00:27:57.080interview that I will never forget is that, you know, she's often criticized for making money,
00:28:02.640you know, writing books about what happened to her. And, you know, however, producers, filmmakers,
00:28:08.340writers, they make a lot of money retelling sometimes like a really harmful, deeply fictionalized
00:28:14.800account of something that like sort of happened around her but like it's always like deeply
00:28:20.420deeply fictionalized and something that she said was that it's apparently everyone else is allowed
00:28:26.180to profit off of something that happened to me except for me everybody else can make money off
00:28:30.860of my story but me and I guess you know why do you think this is you know I I guess I should say a
00:28:37.780side note which is that if I lost a lot of money anybody who wanted to pay me to tell the story of
00:28:44.760what happened to me to recoup my expenses, I would absolutely say yes. And I think that most people
00:28:49.800would, but I feel that we have this expectation where victims are kind of expected to be kind of
00:28:54.660holier than now. Meanwhile, the people who harmed them, it's like they can do whatever they can make
00:29:00.660money, however. And so I think like, why do you think that comes from? Um, um, I mean, first of
00:29:06.560all, I do completely agree with you. It often feels like the victims are on trial more so than
00:29:11.160the criminals uh and also like there's this odd thing that i've realized the word victim is
00:29:18.120has so much uh like packed into the connotations around the word the word it's like people think
00:29:25.740as soon as you're no longer in debt or as soon as you've been made hold no matter how hard you
00:29:30.760had to work to actually become okay you're not a victim anymore like you're now you know and
00:29:36.740someone who's exploiting a situation if you, you know, keep moving forward or if you're seen to
00:29:41.660succeed. And it's like, what is a victim? Like, does a victim, what does a victim look like?
00:29:46.520I've had so many people reach out to me on social media to say, you don't look like a victim.
00:29:51.260And I think that is such a loaded, odd thing to say to somebody. Like, saying that you were the
00:29:56.520victim of a crime is not a request for pity. It's a request for acknowledgement of a wrong that was
00:30:02.560committed it you know it is not like I'm still stuck in this like stalled state in perpetuity
00:30:09.240it's like this happened and that's a fact doesn't matter what you do afterwards to be okay you know
00:30:16.080to to repair the damage to find a way out of it like that is really not relevant um but I I think
00:30:24.600there there are a lot of things that are distracting especially when these stories get
00:30:28.440retold through the lens of media or entertainment people tend to fixate on the whistles and bells
00:30:33.300and the flashy trips and the money um and they hold that I think the jury did the same thing
00:30:40.240they sort of hold that lens up and say well you know looking at the net gain you were doing this
00:30:47.860before Anna now you're doing this you came out okay therefore nope the crime didn't happen it's
00:30:54.460like wait so you're saying I was too good at you know finding like fighting tooth and nail to find
00:31:00.820a way forward like therefore it didn't happen like what why do I think it happens I think it's
00:31:08.060really easy for people to hold on to really simplified recaps of something that was actually
00:31:13.560very complex and nuanced and of course looking back red flags look like this like very tidy
00:31:19.040pattern but when you're living through something where you're dealing with a master manipulator
00:31:23.580you know there's time between these these things that might have tipped you off to trouble ahead
00:31:30.280there's there's a there's an actual relationship between real life people and everything is much
00:31:36.880grayer than it appears in hindsight yeah it's so funny because I feel like a lot of people
00:31:43.340I've seen and I saw like I guess this idea of you know well while that was happening
00:31:49.680she definitely wanted to go to Morocco0.99
00:39:28.380If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:39:34.300This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,
00:39:40.720pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:39:45.960I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:39:53.880I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:39:57.460From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:40:03.800It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:40:10.880Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:40:20.480Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:48:17.540I felt the exact, first of all, Inventing Anna,
00:48:20.560all of the issues that you brought up with it, yes,
00:48:22.920but also just like was a slog to watch like I wanted to watch it before I talked to you
00:48:28.360and literally my partner was like I feel like you've been watching this show for
00:48:31.560a decade and I was like you and me both but just like wasn't an entertaining show
00:48:35.680and I guess having that having like I felt the dropout was different because it had empathy
00:48:41.960for the people who were harmed right like you saw these people who were you know had cancer and were
00:48:46.900involved in these blood these blood trials you know it had empathy for the whistleblowers who
00:48:51.980risked so much of their of their selves to come forward i felt like it was a show that managed to
00:48:59.140demonstrate the kind of seductive you know cult of personality around a scammer without falling
00:49:08.160prey to it and inventing anna was exactly the opposite it was done yeah it was done so
00:49:13.140thoughtfully it had such depth to it because yeah of course there are people who like
00:49:18.040hopped on the bandwagon and celebrated her like it was just the full range of people who were made to
00:49:24.940to read like real life people you know I think Inventing Anna flattened everybody and there's
00:49:32.360a way that can be done in like a show like Gossip Girl or a show that is meant to be and in some
00:49:38.440ways I guess this is but meant to be about materialism and superficiality but but to
00:49:43.600reduce something like this where real real crimes were committed real people's lives were impacted
00:49:48.240it wasn't just these like faceless things they're people who lose jobs they're people who obviously
00:49:52.600or not obviously if it were obvious that would wouldn't be a problem but there are people who
00:49:56.560weren't included in the court you know the court case she definitely committed so many offenses
00:50:02.300that that harmed real life people so i think to flatten something like that into this like very
00:50:07.700frivolous like fun glossy slog of a tv show full stop I don't know dot dot dot yeah I mean it's
00:50:15.920there were times where I was like are you meant to be rooting for Anna in this show and then
00:50:19.500I think the richest part is at the end where the biggest crime the show seems to suggest has been
00:50:26.480committed is the character that shares your same name uh she's like like Neff is like you're a bad
00:50:33.420friend and it's like well Anna went to jail like come on like I know I get I mean and people really
00:50:41.840believe all that is fact like you were like she bankrolled you for two years and like I know
00:50:48.420better than to feed the trolls on the internet like it's not my job to to like educate people
00:50:53.880about like what I like the truth is out there if anybody wants to look for it but like I didn't
00:50:59.140even know her that long and she did nothing like uh but yeah so to have have it framed as though
00:51:05.760like where's the loyalty it's like this is someone i you know we were not best friends i
00:51:10.620knew her for and also look what she did look look at the pattern of her behavior at what point
00:51:15.420what why are you suggesting people who are in these like manipulative relationships be they
00:51:21.760friendships or whatever like that that they are doing something wrong by choosing to leave
00:51:27.220something that is so harmful like that's bizarre that's like that's a very bizarre thing to say
00:51:33.720also the show rearranged it as though I had been reimbursed before the trial and that I like
00:51:38.680kept the secret of my involvement with her arrest like like or kept that a secret like
00:51:43.740didn't happen I was protected two years after Marrakesh after the trial concluded I didn't
00:51:50.360keep my involvement in the sting some kind of like grand secret I wasn't ashamed of it but
00:51:56.120I wasn't that close with like Neff or Casey. You know, I like them. I don't I have nothing negative to say. It's like fine. Everybody can look back and see things through their lenses. And that's what it is. But we weren't in touch. It's not like I owed people explanations. I was out more than I made any. They were not left in any kind of like debt or like there was no ongoing relationship there.
00:52:20.960So to suggest that by not reaching out to say, hello, this is what I have done.
00:52:31.140And I think people understand the way these relationships and acquaintanceships work in their own lives.
00:52:37.940And it's like, of course, that would be that you wouldn't owe these people anything or you wouldn't owe like, you know.
00:52:42.980But when it's someone else and that the minutiae of those relationships are like projected for everyone to pick apart, suddenly it's like, oh, well, why would she do this? Doesn't she have loyalty? And it's like, well, calm down. Think about how this would actually go down if it was you. Like we all understand that in our own lives. But when it's somebody else, I think it's like different.
00:53:02.960yeah evidently and I understand people don't tune into shows like this to really think
00:53:08.680very analytically it's mostly about just getting a good laugh at other people's expense and like
00:53:13.280I you know I do too it's fine like it's I'm not I certainly can't like hate on people for being
00:53:19.000human like that's how this works I just I think that the frivolity of it does conceal something
00:53:26.580that is a bigger picture problem as I have said which is why I figure if I'm stuck in this
00:53:32.080dumpster fire anyway, I might as well try and send up a smoke signal about red flags that I know
00:53:40.980a little too well from firsthand experience. Yeah. Speaking of your firsthand experience,
00:53:46.880one of the last questions I have is like, what has it just been like for you, Rachel,
00:53:51.120the person going through this, getting the social media trolls, getting people who
00:53:55.420have maybe been misled about what happened from the television show? What has it been like to
00:54:01.740deal with that on online? Yeah. Uh, I mean, it's, it's definitely not easy, but I'm mindful of the,
00:54:12.280like, I'm, I'm mindful of my, my, my privilege and my luck just to have like such supportive
00:54:20.300family and friends to have an awareness, uh, of exactly what it is that is happening. You know,
00:54:26.760part of it, I learned the hard way just through gaslighting with Anna to begin with. And now
00:54:31.520through what I've learned in looking back at what happened looking, you know, at, like, I guess,
00:54:38.740I mean, writing the book helped me a lot just in terms of sort of looking at the pattern of behavior
00:54:43.480as a pattern rather than like this, when you're in a relationship like that, it's really hard to
00:54:47.680see anything as black and white because it's not, life is gray. But looking back, things seem so
00:54:51.940much clearer to me. So I'm grateful to have had people who believe me, like a platform to speak
00:54:57.700from the opportunity to speak, which all that is to say, it's hard. But part of the reason I'm
00:55:06.180speaking up about it is because I think that the structure of the Netflix show or this broader
00:55:11.240pattern that's happening, it does a disservice to people who don't have that ability to understand
00:55:17.200what's happening to them, who might not get to hear stories like this because people are ashamed
00:55:21.420where they're scared of the the victim blaming which is completely fair it's not it's I mean
00:55:27.040it's it's wild um and it you know I can have my feet on the ground and my head on my shoulders
00:55:32.760and if I sit there and read that for longer than maybe like 10 minutes like it even if you know
00:55:39.780that it you know it's it's actually not about you it doesn't feel good to have that kind of energy
00:55:44.440coming like I mean that sounds so woo woo but like that kind of hostility coming at you like
00:55:49.360it's like death by paper cuts. Like you can be the strongest rock in the water, but like
00:55:52.960if it keeps running, like you're going to get worn down. Um, so it's hard, but I recognize that
00:56:00.180it's harder, so much harder for so many other people. And, uh, yeah, the internet can be pretty
00:56:07.020nasty. We've talked a lot about how the dangers that come when we give our, when we willingly
00:56:13.200give our attention away to liars and scammers and people who are outrageous and extreme um do you
00:56:20.940ever see a situation where things like nuance thoughtfulness um honest accurate content will be
00:56:29.440amplified over that kind of extremism and and lies do you think that we're this is just it forever or
00:56:35.820do you see do you see a change coming um I mean as evidenced by past behavior I am kind of a
00:56:45.700willful optimist through and through and that is just who I am so I always hope for that you know
00:56:52.380um I do think the damage done by what you just said like the the the pattern what I'm trying to
00:57:02.720say is the truth will out and and it's one thing to think the pattern of um celebrating these
00:57:11.080individuals does do harm that is and will be visible until there is a a movement in the
00:57:19.140opposite direction so i i think we've already seen that like from like like me too forward where
00:57:26.100people are starting to pay attention to things in a different way and actually attempt to hold
00:57:31.280outlets and individuals to account. I just think it's in very specific arenas thus far that that
00:57:38.520seems to be happening. And I think people like to, to sort of pretend that things they do for
00:57:45.580entertainment don't touch on the same subjects or don't have the same impact or seriousness.
00:57:52.300And that to me is, that's the slippery slope.
00:57:57.920I hope that people will recognize these things are not separate.
00:58:03.480They're inextricably linked to the way that we as a culture celebrate people and form our beliefs.
00:58:42.160If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.
00:58:45.740For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,
00:58:48.780Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:58:52.300i survived nine months in captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive
00:59:10.620what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files every
00:59:16.620Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:59:23.840These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:59:27.680Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:59:35.300If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:59:41.020Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:59:49.680Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.