There Are No Girls on the Internet - Banning TikTok would hurt marginalized communities

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00:00:54.860 If you are against misinformation and hate speech, you know, you've got to be against it on all platforms and not just on TikTok.

00:01:09.920 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:01:18.040 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:01:20.760 Let's talk about TikTok, the super popular social media app owned by ByteDance, a Chinese-based

00:01:30.140 company. Now, a growing collection of elected officials want TikTok banned in the United States

00:01:35.780 because they say it represents a national security risk. The Biden administration demanded that TikTok

00:01:42.380 be sold or it could face a ban in the U.S. Congress has also rolled out a bipartisan bill

00:01:48.240 allowing a nationwide TikTok ban called the Restrict Act,

00:01:52.120 which would allow the Secretary of Commerce to ban apps that pose a risk to U.S. national security.

00:01:57.840 Last week, members of Congress held a hearing where they grilled TikTok CEO Sho Zichu.

00:02:03.480 Now, y'all know I love TikTok, but I also know that like any other social media app, it is not without its issues.

00:02:10.200 TikTok disinformation researcher and friend of the show, Abby Richards,

00:02:13.680 was one of the first people calling out TikTok for the way that myths and disinformation and

00:02:18.720 hate speech spreads on the app. But for all of her criticisms of TikTok, Abby still says that

00:02:24.240 banning the platform is not the right move. In a recent op-ed for Newsweek that you can read in

00:02:29.260 the show notes, Abby explained why she thinks banning TikTok will ultimately hurt marginalized

00:02:33.800 communities. I caught up with Abby right after we both watched the hearing.

00:02:37.420 abby richards friend of the show how are you i am angry bridget

00:02:46.240 i am an infuriated girl right now as someone who has really built a lot of your career

00:02:54.340 not just on tiktok but like calling out tiktok for the ways that it like can spread misinformation

00:03:00.580 and hate speech what has it been like to watch elected officials talk about banning it it's

00:03:06.260 been infuriating because they're getting it all wrong. Like I have literally built my career

00:03:12.320 criticizing TikTok. I will be the first to tell you about like the copious amounts of misinformation

00:03:18.000 and hate speech, extremism, harassment that happened on that app. But to then try and ban it

00:03:24.760 without any evidence that it is a national security threat whatsoever and just using like

00:03:33.080 fear-mongering and pointing to other pieces of misinformation that I have tried to debunk about

00:03:39.160 TikTok. And this is like the types of misinformation that emerges off the platform. So if you were

00:03:45.220 watching the hearing yesterday, you would have seen a lot of our congressmen and women pointing 0.81

00:03:52.020 to TikTok challenges that are causing children tons of harm. And I have spent so many, like

00:03:58.880 countless hours debunking these exact like moral panics around these challenges um where essentially 0.94

00:04:06.380 adults try and blame the stupid things that kids do on the newest technology we see it over and

00:04:12.520 over and over again but the fact that you know that's being used to justify the banning of this 0.95

00:04:18.640 app too is infuriating um and i'm deeply concerned about the what the consequences will be of banning

00:04:27.340 an app that 150 million Americans use.

00:04:31.060 So you brought up something really interesting.

00:04:32.560 I know that these so-called deadly challenges was a big part of the hearings.

00:04:37.920 And something that, I mean, I almost hate to ask this question, but I feel like it's

00:04:41.240 an important context of the conversation.

00:04:43.840 That is great news for Facebook.

00:04:46.520 They're like, oh, our strategy is winning.

00:04:49.540 Our strategy to turn the public and, of course, elected officials against TikTok and make them

00:04:54.640 think that like it's this like place where all these deadly challenges emerge even though some

00:04:59.480 at least some of those challenges actually emerged on Facebook if you really want to like get into

00:05:03.040 the nitty-gritty did you so did you see in the hearings the ways that like fear-mongering just

00:05:09.480 sort of writ large about technology was taking center stage in these hearings it's almost like

00:05:15.340 they're placing this fear that they have of new and emerging technologies and how young people

00:05:19.780 use them and just placing it on one singular app. So rather than actually dealing with the

00:05:27.000 consequences of this rapidly changing society because of the expansion of technology on a

00:05:33.860 monthly basis, we just want to pin all of our anxiety on one app and cross our fingers that

00:05:40.980 if we just ban this one app, it'll all go away. And so I think we see that a lot with the challenges

00:05:46.820 and the steam that they pick up among people who are not on the platform in particular.

00:05:54.380 We know that it was the Washington Post that reported that there was a marketing group

00:06:07.400 that was working with Meta to place op-eds about fear-mongering about TikTok.

00:06:12.440 So that's something that we have seen happen before.

00:06:16.820 And it certainly seems like this is a big win for Meta.

00:06:19.700 If you are on TikTok at all, you are probably seeing this widespread popularity of almost

00:06:29.360 conspiratorial language about where people are blaming the ban on Meta and saying that

00:06:39.400 like Meta is lobbying and Google too, to some extent, blaming it, but yeah, blaming it on

00:06:43.900 Meta and Google for lobbying congresspeople and encouraging them to ban their biggest competition.

00:06:50.480 I don't know how much truth there is to that because I think that there is a lot of geopolitics

00:06:54.480 there too. And it seems like the US government is, you know, very interested in like splitting

00:07:00.360 the internet as much as possible right now. So it's hard to say if it's like one cause versus

00:07:07.000 another, but this does definitely look like a big win for Meta. And they used rhetoric that Meta has

00:07:14.080 also pushed before. Yeah. So in terms of a TikTok ban, so in your piece, you write about how,

00:07:22.140 you know, obviously you are the first one to admit that TikTok has its downfalls and the

00:07:27.380 democratization of like media has its downfalls, but you also talk about the ways that this could

00:07:32.640 actually harm marginalized communities. How do you see that working? So let's, okay, well,

00:07:37.600 we'll start here. When you consider a, like, institutional media, legacy media, so New York

00:07:44.640 Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, CNN, they are top-down information systems, which means

00:07:52.040 that these newsrooms essentially look at all of the news and then decide what is newsworthy and

00:07:58.680 then disseminate it to their audience. TikTok is much more of a bottom-up information system,

00:08:04.300 which means that anyone can post basically anything that they want, and then the algorithm

00:08:10.100 is working with the users to determine what people are watching, and in that way, the users decide

00:08:17.980 what is of importance to them. So we have two different information systems, and this top-down

00:08:23.660 one, tends to privilege white, richer, more privileged people. It tends to be composed of 0.54

00:08:33.900 people who come from more privileged backgrounds. It speaks about their problems and things that

00:08:41.280 they are interested in thinking about. They, in particular, like, they have to sell subscriptions

00:08:49.980 or sell ads so they have to run stories that they know that the wealthy audience that they pander

00:08:56.740 to will be interested in the first place because it's really not that profitable to tell stories

00:09:02.600 of marginalized people who can't afford to subscribe to their newspaper. So TikTok being

00:09:08.880 this much more bottom-up infrastructure allowed for two major like kind of newish forms of massive

00:09:17.800 dissemination of news and information. The first would be seeing information from firsthand

00:09:24.640 accounts. So that's like when, you know, this started the invasion of Ukraine, where we saw

00:09:29.720 all of these videos of people fleeing the country or being in bomb shelters. So you're seeing people

00:09:34.660 who are actually experiencing the events posting online, and that garners attention without editors

00:09:40.420 needing to push it out. And then the second is through trusted messengers. And these are people

00:09:46.040 that can speak to specific communities,

00:09:49.420 and they have had a lot of success on TikTok.

00:09:54.060 They have built up these communities

00:09:55.760 where they are trusted sources of information

00:09:59.620 and sometimes opinion.

00:10:01.280 People go to them to try and feel like

00:10:02.660 they can understand certain problems.

00:10:05.440 And, you know, this could range from a community

00:10:07.400 of like 10,000 people

00:10:08.680 to communities of millions of people.

00:10:11.020 But this is particularly advantageous

00:10:13.880 to marginalized groups

00:10:14.860 who probably can't afford a subscription to the New York Times or alternatively they don't want

00:10:19.660 one because they don't trust the New York Times. They've never seen themselves represented in the

00:10:23.400 New York Times. Like there are so many reasons why they might not turn to legacy media but they will

00:10:29.300 turn to like a trusted messenger who looks like them, who speaks their language, who they feel

00:10:34.040 understands them and their communities. And so if we dismantle that infrastructure like suddenly

00:10:40.220 like flipping off a light switch, you'd be leaving all of these communities without their

00:10:45.600 information infrastructure. And that could be leaving them in the dark. It could be really,

00:10:50.980 really damaging for them. And they're very resilient to all of these marginalized communities,

00:10:55.420 whether it's communities of color, queer communities, disabled communities. They're

00:10:59.040 very resilient. They will rebuild. But keeping them in a state of like constantly rebuilding

00:11:05.080 the information infrastructure stops them from being able to do things like organize and mobilize

00:11:10.640 and gain power because they're constantly rebuilding their their information infrastructure

00:11:15.200 so yeah i'm mad i mean that's such a good point like i oh where do i even start i i think that

00:11:25.320 one of the reasons why we're even having this conversation is like a fundamental misunderstanding

00:11:30.060 of the ways that platforms like TikTok have worked

00:11:33.660 and what they have like been used to,

00:11:35.860 like what movements they've been used to build, right?

00:11:37.560 Like I still see people being like,

00:11:38.780 oh, like it's a kid's dancing app,

00:11:40.320 which like part of my soul dies every time I hear that.

00:11:43.700 You know, looking at around like

00:11:45.000 what was happening to women in Iran?

00:11:47.060 I have to say, I don't think I would have known

00:11:49.320 what was happening.

00:11:50.400 I don't think I would have known what was going on 1.00

00:11:52.160 if not for TikTok, if not for Iranian women saying, 1.00

00:11:54.940 hey, this is what's going on.

00:11:55.920 Here's how you can help.

00:11:56.600 Here's what we need.

00:11:57.320 I don't think I would have been able to be plugged

00:11:59.200 into what was happening, if not for TikTok. And so I think that it's like the people who are

00:12:06.480 legislating this don't necessarily have that visibility into the ways that it has functioned

00:12:11.960 for communities who are marginalized. And so if we're going to have any conversation about just

00:12:16.900 an outright ban, they're not even including that in the conversation. And I feel like it's kind of

00:12:22.680 like what you said, like, if we're going to do something about how these apps and platforms

00:12:27.820 function in our lives and in our like media ecosystem, let's not have it be done hastily

00:12:32.800 and badly, right? Where people are going to be, have the rug pulled out from under them and their

00:12:37.500 very real issues are not even being discussed or like, you know, brought to the table.

00:12:42.740 Oh yeah. There's no nuance in this conversation whatsoever. And you would think that if we're

00:12:47.980 going to have a conversation about pulling the plug on one of the biggest pieces of communications

00:12:53.560 infrastructure in the world. That is a conversation that we should be very careful about.

00:13:03.940 Dismantling infrastructure that large is not a decision that should be taken lightly. And yet,

00:13:11.420 it seems like our representatives truly have bought into this idea that TikTok is somehow

00:13:17.260 know simultaneously just a kid's dancing app and also spyware like it's it's really confusing how

00:13:25.100 it can be both and like saying like oh well you could push specific you know you could push

00:13:30.580 specific uh misinformation campaigns and try and sway the american populace but then also

00:13:38.600 simultaneously ignoring the fact that like it is a messaging center for a huge portion of the

00:13:46.600 American populace if you just remove it there will be consequences and then when I bring this

00:13:52.920 up I see some people just like oh well you know at the like you know national security is more

00:13:58.640 important or it's like everyone will just go to a new app and like yes probably they will

00:14:06.420 but that doesn't mean that it won't cause a lot of harm in the process it doesn't mean that people

00:14:12.840 oh, well, you know, there's still going to be lots of creators who lose their jobs.

00:14:17.660 There's going to be people who have built these large audiences who now have nothing.

00:14:26.360 And a lot of people whose voices were empowered and suddenly were coming into

00:14:32.680 a position of discursive power who will now not have access to that.

00:14:39.560 And even if, like, yes, technically, if you look at, like, a very big picture level, people will migrate to new apps, sure.

00:14:49.540 But there's still going to be a lot of consequences, and we can't really ignore that.

00:14:54.940 Yeah, I mean, even looking at what's going on with Twitter, there was a time where I was like, oh, everyone's going to be using Mastodon or this or that.

00:15:03.040 it hasn't, I know that our communities, particularly marginalized communities, as you said,

00:15:08.120 are really resilient. And we always find a way to make, we always make a way out of no way,

00:15:13.600 right? Like that is what we do. But it's watching Twitter become a place where people spend less

00:15:20.860 and less of their time. There hasn't been like one place where everybody is like setting up shop.

00:15:25.240 And so it takes longer, it's messier, it's more energy for these communities, many of whom,

00:15:31.100 Look at the trans community and the queer community are up against quite a bit right now. And so maybe having to pick up and rebuild a new communications infrastructure elsewhere is not what they need right now is maybe is maybe not going to be like great for those communities.

00:15:46.020 It'll be horrible for them because now, in addition to legislation that is threatening their right to exist, they also don't have their communities that they can turn to for advice, for support, for information.

00:16:01.400 and they don't have access to their broader communications network

00:16:07.160 to like mobilize, right, and plan what they will do in response

00:16:12.640 or try and like have a place they can turn to to raise funds

00:16:17.320 if they need surgery or if they need, you know, legal fees

00:16:21.400 or if they need to get out of whichever state they're in.

00:16:25.280 If you remove the communications infrastructure

00:16:27.680 and we're talking about a marginalized community,

00:16:31.400 that is undergoing a lot of legislative challenges right now,

00:16:38.640 that's putting them in a position that just increases their marginalization.

00:16:48.300 Let's take a quick break.

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00:18:46.080 And we're back. So let me zoom out a little bit and just make sure that I have this right.

00:18:51.920 Lawmakers are saying that they want to ban TikTok because it's a national security risk.

00:18:56.340 This is a little bit above my pay grade.

00:18:58.260 I am no digital national security expert.

00:19:00.700 And I want to make sure that my understanding of this aligns with your understanding.

00:19:04.460 So it is true that TikTok is a Chinese-owned company. 0.56

00:19:07.740 And it is true that potentially that could open the door for all kinds of national security risks. 0.98

00:19:14.520 But what we don't have right now is a smoking gun that this is actually a problem.

00:19:19.740 We're very much speaking in hypotheticals of what could happen or what potentially might happen.

00:19:24.500 So lawmakers right now are trying to legislate TikTok because of this hypothetical threat that might be out there, but it's not yet revealed itself.

00:19:33.240 Do I have that right?

00:19:35.520 Yeah, I would say you nailed it.

00:19:36.900 um they haven't provided any evidence of instances where china used tiktok

00:19:46.080 um in any sort of antagonistic way towards the u.s it's only in the hypothetical of like they

00:19:54.840 own it and they maybe could and even if they could it's kind of unclear how they would go

00:20:00.580 about doing that uh what we do know and like what feels like it's missing from this conversation

00:20:07.260 so much is that even if we were to ban tiktok it would not stop the chinese government or any

00:20:15.480 government or any bad actor from just buying your data elsewhere tiktok is roughly collecting about

00:20:22.000 the same same amount of data as any of the other major social media platforms and then they profit

00:20:28.140 by selling it. Well, it was in the hearing that he denied that they sold data. So maybe they're

00:20:36.000 not even selling the data. But social media platforms in general collect your data and sell

00:20:43.780 it. And it is not difficult for anyone with any sort of intention to just buy your data so that

00:20:50.820 they can target you with specific advertisements and specific messages. So if we were actually

00:20:57.080 concerned about the Chinese government or any other government manipulating Americans you would

00:21:04.540 be implementing like a comprehensive data privacy legislation rather than going after one singular

00:21:11.560 app because even if you were to ban TikTok and even if TikTok were using its its data in that

00:21:17.160 way which we still have no evidence that it does they would still just be able to purchase your

00:21:22.340 data anywhere else. So this is like applying a used, gross, infected Band-Aid to a wound

00:21:30.040 that will really not fix the wound at all, but will almost certainly add additional infections.

00:21:40.220 Oh my God. I was just about to read your quote in the Newsweek piece back to you. But yeah,

00:21:45.780 I mean, this is what really gets me about this conversation is that,

00:21:49.020 Like, I guess we have no meaningful data privacy legislation in this country, right?

00:21:55.820 And so, like, that, the fact that we're even having this conversation indicates to me a

00:22:00.780 complete failure of leadership, governing, and legislating, right?

00:22:04.260 And so I feel like banning TikTok is this big, flashy gesture of, like, see, we did

00:22:12.540 something, see, we got it together and governed and made some kind of a gesture toward, you

00:22:18.660 know data privacy but it actually does nothing as you said like there's nothing keeping these

00:22:23.940 companies or really anybody from buying our data like there are so many other the fact that our

00:22:28.480 data is is so misused and like that is the baseline shouldn't we be talking about that so 0.74

00:22:35.160 even if we were to ban tick tock it would be totally possible for the chinese government to

00:22:40.900 access americans data in all other kinds of ways that maybe they have and so it's like what does

00:22:44.940 it really do if the if the real problem is our lack of data privacy infrastructure in this country

00:22:49.720 other than being a big flashy gesture what does banning tiktok actually achieve

00:22:55.100 i mean to answer your question nothing on a political level i think that

00:23:03.360 it is a distraction that allows for the american public to feel like something was done to make

00:23:11.220 them feel safer while simultaneously not passing the legislation that would actually protect the

00:23:18.860 American public. And like, we are a superpower and we demand that all of the major social media

00:23:26.040 platforms be stemming from us. How dare the Chinese also have one? Yeah, I saw this great 1.00

00:23:33.200 USA Today headline that was like, how like, how dare China try to get my data from TikTok? Don't

00:23:40.040 they know that that's for google and facebook like but i think like yeah like like we have just like

00:23:45.980 lost the plot of doing anything to meaningfully address this and yeah i i i think like during the

00:23:54.200 hearing some of the things that came up around like content moderation and stuff those are

00:23:57.840 important conversations to have but having them having tiktok be the face of you know

00:24:04.640 a lack of content moderation or hate speech and harmful content proliferating on a platform.

00:24:11.720 As someone who has worked in this space for a while, I'm deeply uncomfortable with that because

00:24:15.020 I think it creates a scapegoat that lets these other, I would say, sometimes bad actors off the

00:24:21.480 hook, right? Like we're not having the conversation in a meaningful way to actually get results.

00:24:27.760 We're just making an example out of this one big bad boogeyman, which is TikTok.

00:24:31.280 Yeah, definitely. And I mean, the examples that they were pointing to, aside from these like moral panic challenges, the examples of violent content on the app were really wild that they were pointing to it in the first place.

00:24:46.160 because as far as removing, you know, really violent content,

00:24:54.020 TikTok is better than most of the other platforms.

00:24:57.120 I mean, I professionally criticize them.

00:24:59.020 It's one of my favorite things to do is bullying TikTok.

00:25:02.520 But they will generally be pretty good about removing anything that I flag towards them.

00:25:10.280 And they have a lot of, like, horrible things on their apps, like, absolutely,

00:25:14.340 but all social media platforms do.

00:25:16.160 And so what you really want to be looking at, too, is just how much reach are those things getting.

00:25:21.020 So one of the videos that they pulled up during the hearing was an imagery of a gun.

00:25:26.900 And I think it included one of the committee members' names.

00:25:29.800 And it was, and they were railing on TikTok because the video had been up for, I believe, 41 days.

00:25:36.880 And what they were failing to account for is that the video had, like, no likes.

00:25:42.380 It was not a video that had been engaged with whatsoever.

00:25:44.940 so arguably it's actually tiktok it's evidence that tiktok was doing a decent job with its

00:25:52.280 moderation but that it had like siphoned this off and contained it um more than anything else like

00:25:58.980 yes it shouldn't be on the platform at all but if it's not getting any reach really

00:26:03.740 then tiktok's moderation to an extent is working that's the whole point it's like you want these

00:26:11.420 things contained. You want them quarantined so that they don't spread. So being able to point

00:26:16.860 towards that was like, it was such a strange choice. And then it was additionally strange

00:26:22.960 because we love guns in this country, but apparently have problems with images of them.

00:26:28.420 If you watched the hearing, there were actually some pretty good questions that came up.

00:26:32.680 Representative Yvette D. Clark asked whether or not TikTok suppresses marginalized creators.

00:26:37.360 And Representative Lisa Blunt Rochester asked about whether accurate information about

00:26:41.380 abortion is being suppressed on TikTok.

00:26:44.260 But what was much more abundant, sadly, were questions that weren't just silly, but also

00:26:49.000 underscored how little some elected officials seem to know about the technology that they

00:26:53.440 are responsible for legislating.

00:26:55.820 Yeah, I mean, that example really brings me to something that, like, it pains me, but

00:27:02.620 I can't not talk about it with you.

00:27:05.480 some of the questions and examples that these elected officials were raising were just embarrassing.

00:27:13.000 Like, you know, Representative Richard Hudson from North Carolina, like, I'm sure you know

00:27:16.740 what I'm going, what I'm getting at, the, like, exchange about whether or not TikTok

00:27:21.260 accesses users' home Wi-Fi. Like, do you ever, like, do you ever feel like the people that we

00:27:28.120 have elected to represent us and to advocate for us and our interests up against big tech

00:27:33.240 just are making it clear that they're talking about legislating technology that they seem to

00:27:40.260 not really understand or get? No, it was quite clear that no one on that committee had ever

00:27:45.540 opened TikTok. They had never used it before. They're just making wild statements and accusations

00:27:53.860 and guesses about how it works. And if you go on TikTok now in response to that committee,

00:27:59.140 I mean, they're just being ridiculed because the users can tell that these congressmen and women have never really actually used the app or know what they're talking about in any way, shape, or form.

00:28:12.460 And it is mind-bogglingly infuriating to witness people who don't even understand how Wi-Fi works or couldn't tell you the difference between a modem and a rotor trying to legislate major social media policies and major data privacy policies.

00:28:36.120 They don't understand any of it. So how are we expecting them to even know where to begin when

00:28:42.820 it comes to those bigger legislative problems? It really goes back to what you said in the

00:28:48.320 beginning of our conversation of like, if we're going to do it, let's not do it badly. Let's not

00:28:53.920 do it in a way that like, we are talking about a pretty major communications platform. If we're

00:28:59.660 going to do it, let's not have the people in charge make it clear time and time again that

00:29:04.060 they have no idea what they're talking about maybe just maybe just maybe that could maybe be a good

00:29:08.980 place to start is like knowing that you need to use wi-fi to access tiktok like hi oh my god i

00:29:18.540 really liked the um exchange about whether or not tiktok tracked how much your pupils dilated

00:29:27.140 in response to certain videos and it's like no they look at watch time

00:29:32.840 they're not like reading your pupils to see how big they get in response to each video

00:29:39.880 i don't know what black mirror episode you think we are in we're in a different one we're still in

00:29:45.420 one but it's different just a different episode yeah i don't think i don't think that tiktok is

00:29:51.520 like logging your biometrics, dude. Some of those questions were concerning. And I also think they

00:30:00.320 just reveal how we just need younger people. I think younger folks, both in elected office

00:30:10.880 and also being listened to, I think is really, really important. People who actually have

00:30:16.180 real world experience with the technology that they're talking about, because as you said,

00:30:20.220 it was just so clear that many of the folks in Congress had just had no idea what they were

00:30:25.380 talking about. Yeah, no, we would absolutely need to have younger people or just more, you know,

00:30:31.020 digitally literate people writing these laws. Because if you truly don't understand that like

00:30:37.120 the app needs to track where your eyes are so that they can put sunglass filters on you,

00:30:42.380 Like, that is just something that a younger person would need to explain and need to help them understand.

00:30:52.900 And if all of our legislators are, you know, I don't want to say dinosaurs, but, like, they're acting like dinosaurs right now, and I feel like it's called for, then we can't expect solid digital legislation from them.

00:31:08.100 Like, they don't know what they're doing.

00:31:09.460 They don't understand anything beyond email at this point.

00:31:12.380 Yeah. That is sad. I mean...

00:31:16.500 It's really sad. It's really scary. Because if you want to talk about, like, the American people being vulnerable, our leaders not even understanding, like, the, you know, bare minimum that they need to understand about how the internet works, like, that leaves us quite vulnerable.

00:31:33.280 That's such a good point.

00:31:34.800 Yeah. That seems like a much bigger threat. Our leaders failing to understand

00:31:41.900 anything about technology feels like a much bigger threat than this TikTok boogeyman scare.

00:31:50.920 So what do you say to someone listening who is like, I am concerned about the national security

00:31:56.280 threat that TikTok poses still? What would you say to that person?

00:31:59.720 I would say that at this point in time, we have seen more evidence of Facebook engaging in schemes to manipulate the American public than we have TikTok.

00:32:12.200 I mean, we have evidence of Cambridge Analytica.

00:32:14.840 We know that Meta was involved with this.

00:32:17.160 We have no evidence of TikTok doing it.

00:32:19.400 So at the moment, all of our fears are based around a hypothetical and that they are based around this like boogeyman of China and that that might not be the best place to create legislation from.

00:32:37.300 Like that mentality might not lend itself to the creation of like really strong digital privacy legislation.

00:32:47.560 um and that i mean also if you are personally concerned about tiktok like there's no reason

00:32:54.560 why you have to have it on your phones um that's a decision that you can totally make if you have

00:33:00.860 if you have national secrets on your phones like maybe don't have tiktok on it um but then also

00:33:06.300 like maybe don't use any other social media platforms because they are all gathering your data

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00:34:07.200 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:34:13.540 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:34:19.920 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:34:23.620 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.99

00:34:29.040 Shut up. Don't say anything. 0.99

00:34:31.700 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

00:34:36.220 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:34:40.680 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:34:48.300 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

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00:34:58.780 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:35:12.300 Let's get right back into it.

00:35:15.280 Other platforms are also gathering your data and behaving badly and acting in ways that cause all kinds of harm.

00:35:21.640 But this legislation is very much black and white.

00:35:25.120 And it seems very much based in scaremongering about TikTok as this potential boogeyman.

00:35:31.000 And I just don't think that fear-mongering is a place that will elicit good, meaningful,

00:35:35.700 substantive legislation. 0.94

00:35:37.560 You know, black and white thinking on a nuanced issue is bad enough. 0.88

00:35:40.760 But black and white legislating? 0.94

00:35:42.460 I don't know.

00:35:43.240 I don't like it.

00:35:44.040 I don't like it either.

00:35:45.500 I don't trust it.

00:35:46.320 It's not coming from a smart place.

00:35:48.340 It's coming from a fearful place.

00:35:49.680 And that's not where we get good legislation.

00:35:51.680 and if you want to have a much bigger conversation about social media and the future of social media

00:35:59.020 and whether it's bad for us whether it's good for us what harms it does but also you know what

00:36:04.240 net positives it brings to the world I am here for that conversation it'll take us a few years

00:36:10.260 to get to the bottom of it it is not like a quick and easy conversation to have but I do think that

00:36:17.100 that's one we should be having and I've been trying to push for it it's like okay well there

00:36:22.060 are all these issues with like misinformation and extremism on social media and we know that

00:36:26.320 these platforms benefit from the posting and sharing of content that is that appeals to our

00:36:33.440 emotions that is often false or is you know oversimplifying really complex issues or it's

00:36:40.800 just like extremist and hateful in nature we know that they benefit from that because that's the sort

00:36:44.960 of content that keeps people on their platforms consuming content and therefore consuming

00:36:50.200 ads.

00:36:51.780 And I would like us to be working towards the creation of like digital communities that

00:37:01.240 are better for our emotional and social well-beings.

00:37:06.680 I could absolutely see that occurring in the future is like creating these digital public

00:37:13.260 spaces where people can go share information, but that aren't driven exclusively by profit

00:37:19.160 and are built with the goal of creating a more well-informed and empathetic public.

00:37:28.720 But that doesn't happen just because you ban one app you don't like.

00:37:34.580 Like, that is deep, deep infrastructural change that we need to make and I think is the only

00:37:40.700 way really forward, unless we want to drive ourselves insane. But that's not a light and

00:37:47.220 easy task. It's certainly not going to be achieved by banning one app. Yeah, if you are against

00:37:54.520 misinformation and hate speech, you know, you got to be against it on all platforms and not just on

00:38:01.660 TikTok, because Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, they all have it. I mean, Twitter right

00:38:07.020 now is also such a mess. Just as a, like, it is wild to watch all of this, this big giant attack

00:38:16.840 on TikTok. Meanwhile, Twitter is just falling apart, crumbling, and has disintegrated as like

00:38:26.660 this reasonable public space. And the fact that, you know, we thought we would be losing TikTok

00:38:36.540 and essentially be losing Twitter,

00:38:39.360 that would really leave Meta with a lot of power.

00:38:45.300 But I also think it's interesting that, like,

00:38:49.360 one rich guy can just buy and ruin Twitter,

00:38:52.800 but, like, God forbid, an app has just some Chinese ownership. 0.98

00:38:57.500 If you had to say,

00:38:59.080 do you think that TikTok is going to be banned in the United States?

00:39:02.640 I'm pretty 50-50 right now.

00:39:04.800 I don't like it.

00:39:05.580 If you had asked me before, I'd be like, probably not, because I thought that the Dems were smarter than that.

00:39:16.100 I don't know about that.

00:39:17.780 I know.

00:39:18.380 I know why.

00:39:19.500 In hindsight, what was I thinking?

00:39:21.660 They love losing.

00:39:22.540 um but i just i was baffled that the biden administration pushed for the sale versus ban

00:39:33.420 um because i thought that they knew that if they lost tiktok they would not be able to

00:39:38.860 mobilize voters in 2024 but apparently they don't know that and they just are down for political

00:39:46.020 suicide. I really, it baffles me. So I continue to be wrong and surprised by what they will do

00:39:56.440 in the name of like this weird, singular bipartisanship over xenophobia. It's the

00:40:04.100 one thing that they can relate to the Republicans on right now. Also, you know, you made the point

00:40:11.120 about mobilizing younger voters.

00:40:14.720 I said this on a panel and it got like a laugh

00:40:17.360 and I was like, oh, that was actually serious.

00:40:19.500 I think, and this might sound,

00:40:22.500 it's gonna sound how it sounds, but I truly believe this.

00:40:25.660 I think if TikTok is banned in the United States,

00:40:31.540 I see that going very poor for Biden and the Democrats,

00:40:34.820 not to make this like a horse race issue,

00:40:36.880 but I think that some of the most interesting,

00:40:39.380 meaningful organizing of young folks politically is happening on TikTok. If you look at the

00:40:45.160 conversations that younger folks are leading on when it comes to things like climate justice,

00:40:49.840 those conversations are happening on TikTok and they are mobilization conversations. So I don't,

00:40:55.000 I'm not saying that I think that young people will be like, oh, we love TikTok and we're not

00:40:59.540 going to vote for Joe Biden just because he banned it and we love it. I think it's much deeper than

00:41:03.700 that. I think that Gen Z uses it as a platform to do political and social mobilization and

00:41:09.840 organizing. If you show that you don't, not just don't understand that, don't see it, don't value

00:41:15.180 it, ignore it, that is going to be a problem. And so it's not an issue of like, oh, these whiny

00:41:20.240 brats just want their dance videos. No, no, no, no. I think it's much deeper than that. And if you 1.00

00:41:24.480 show that you aren't even able to see that, it is going to be a problem.

00:41:29.020 A hundred percent. And people keep playing this off as like, oh, you're going to piss off Gen Z. And it's like, that's less what I'm worried about. I think a lot of Gen Z would still, you know, the ones who are going to vote anyways will still vote for the lesser of two evils. Like, that's going to continue.

00:41:46.340 But what you will lose is all of this mobilization infrastructure where people are getting their news, where people are having, like, lots of political discourse.

00:41:59.380 What is helping young people to understand the world is the discourse on TikTok, is the trusted messengers that they turn to on TikTok.

00:42:08.980 And if you take that away, like, they're just going to not be as politically engaged.

00:42:14.720 because TikTok made it really easy for them to get politically engaged

00:42:19.220 and get politically informed and deep dive into this discourse.

00:42:22.700 Like, you know, people keep saying TikTok is this dancing app,

00:42:26.360 and it's so, so wrong because, like, fundamentally it's a discourse app.

00:42:29.440 It's where people are having conversations about the world.

00:42:33.500 That's why, like, stitching was such a groundbreaking feature

00:42:37.800 because you could take one video and respond to it,

00:42:40.420 and you get this like built and constructed constant discourse about political and social

00:42:46.520 issues, if you remove that, you know, they might still be left-leaning and like some of them might

00:42:54.440 vote, but they won't be as informed on certain issues. They won't necessarily know where to,

00:43:01.560 or like where to be putting their energy for certain political issues. Like they would just

00:43:06.700 be losing so much of their infrastructure. And that will have severe costs, particularly for

00:43:11.860 the Dems. And it's really mind-blowing to me that they don't recognize that. Yeah, I'm just,

00:43:18.920 I'm completely shocked. I shouldn't be. I shouldn't be. I'm years into this. I shouldn't be.

00:43:24.940 Well, here's, I mean, big question. Where will Abby Richards go if there's no TikTok? Like,

00:43:30.360 I think of you as the person who is, like, made a platform. Like, one of the first people who

00:43:35.820 really made a platform from calling out and criticizing TikTok and advocating for it to be

00:43:41.240 better. Where do you personally see yourself showing up if it's banned? Here's the thing is

00:43:46.060 like on one level, I think I experienced some panic where it's like, if I lose my platform on

00:43:50.620 TikTok, do I lose my power? Like, you know, will I still have work to do? Will people still see me

00:43:57.420 as valuable? And then I, after, you know, a little bit of dwelling in that panic, I got over it

00:44:03.540 Because it's like, no, I'm privileged.

00:44:05.900 I have a lot of, like, institutional power at this point.

00:44:08.200 Like, I can pivot to other platforms if I want.

00:44:11.720 And fundamentally, I think that the deeper we go into a tech dystopia, the more job security I actually have, which is dark, but I think it's true.

00:44:21.920 That was some dark, Abby. 0.99

00:44:23.760 That was some dark shit. 1.00

00:44:25.160 But, I mean, you're right, right? 0.99

00:44:27.000 Like, you call out TikTok, but really you're calling out, like, our media ecosystem, the way that it impacts our democracy.

00:44:35.920 Like, it's so much more than one platform.

00:44:38.020 Your voice is about so much more than one platform.

00:44:40.220 I guess I'll put it that way.

00:44:41.200 But I agree with you that, like, you know, when I started this tech podcast, I never knew the, like, I remember thinking, like, oh, maybe I'll, what if I run out of content?

00:44:51.340 What if I run out of, like, things to talk about?

00:44:53.600 Nope, I sure never will.

00:44:55.200 Never, ever.

00:44:55.940 I sure never will.

00:44:57.000 I mean, my goal is to eventually put myself out of a job.

00:45:00.680 I would really like if I could work hard enough and eradicate all of the misinformation and hate speech online.

00:45:05.460 And then one day I get to retire and I don't need to do this job anymore.

00:45:09.600 I don't see that happening.

00:45:11.060 So I think, you know, TikTok is banned.

00:45:12.840 I will go to other platforms.

00:45:14.500 I will build out my presence on other platforms, too.

00:45:19.160 I'm far more concerned about the people who don't have the institutional backing

00:45:24.920 and who don't have power outside of their TikTok presence.

00:45:31.300 They will have their lives much more uprooted than I think I will.

00:45:36.360 We are in such uncharted waters.

00:45:39.560 Yeah, no, truly what happens to the creators?

00:45:43.520 Because Congress, I saw one congressman went on Politico and was like,

00:45:48.060 no they'll be able to switch to a different platform as if they haven't spent last like two

00:45:53.760 three four years building a platform so that now they can do brand deals or now they they can

00:45:59.860 make money from the creator fund um and now oh no they can just start over it'll be fine who cares

00:46:06.840 like it's it's you know how long that takes like yeah it's but again it's it's showing that the

00:46:13.520 people who are meant to be legislating this

00:46:15.280 just don't have a realistic understanding

00:46:18.400 of what they're actually talking about.

00:46:20.600 And when they make suggestions like that,

00:46:21.840 it's like, have you taken a step back

00:46:24.120 to ask what that actually looks like in practice?

00:46:27.620 Yeah, I don't think that they have.

00:46:29.940 I will say where there are marginalized creators

00:46:34.420 on a platform facing some kind of something

00:46:38.780 that they don't like,

00:46:40.020 there's always really good pushback.

00:46:42.320 And so scrolling the platform after those hearings,

00:46:46.320 got to give it up to the creators

00:46:47.660 who are using their strengths, creating good content

00:46:50.820 to educate people on those hearings

00:46:53.400 and sort of what they thought about them.

00:46:54.700 I've seen such hilarious TikToks coming out of that.

00:46:57.700 I saw one creator who was pretending

00:47:00.400 to be a lawmaker in Congress who was like,

00:47:03.160 I want to know, and my wife wants to know,

00:47:05.500 why every time I open TikTok, 1.00

00:47:07.160 all I see is these big-breasted women. 1.00

00:47:09.100 just making fun of like how silly some of their questions were um so that's something i'll always 1.00

00:47:16.100 have faith in is marginalized creators being able to use social media platforms to poke fun

00:47:21.280 at legislators and to spotlight and educate folks on something that they do not like

00:47:26.280 oh 100 the tiktoks coming out of this have been phenomenal i was like getting a lot of comfort

00:47:32.820 last night and just seeing the conversations that were being had even did you say see any of the

00:47:39.360 chew edits the edits of the ceo people were making like spicy edits of him um being like save tiktok

00:47:46.040 uh those were great there were a lot of um i want to see if i can pull one i know i just

00:47:55.040 screenshotted one this morning that was giving me life um oh it was the cap cut meme of pedro

00:48:04.520 pascal eating a cracker sandwich and then uh it says me watching the ceo of tiktok defend the

00:48:13.360 american people and our rights from the literal u.s government all while they mispronounce his

00:48:17.840 name have no knowledge about how wi-fi works and are saying they are doing it for the children

00:48:22.560 when there was yet another school shooting that I didn't see on the news,

00:48:25.880 but I did see reported on TikTok.

00:48:29.400 Doesn't that really say it all?

00:48:31.000 That does. That sums it up, doesn't it?

00:48:34.120 So, like, TikTok is reading this stuff for shit, 0.98

00:48:36.680 but, like, the rest of the internet I don't know so much 0.97

00:48:39.900 because there was also that study that came out,

00:48:42.000 or I don't know if it was a study.

00:48:43.120 It was a report, well, I want to say,

00:48:46.760 no, I don't even remember which news organization ran it,

00:48:49.280 that was the biggest determining factor

00:48:52.140 of whether or not you support the TikTok ban

00:48:53.740 is whether or not you use TikTok.

00:48:55.620 Yeah, so there you go.

00:48:56.520 It's like people who don't have direct familiarity

00:49:01.780 with the issue are the ones who are in favor

00:49:05.360 of an outright ban.

00:49:07.320 Yeah, it is much easier to convince people

00:49:11.500 who are not even using the app that the app is dangerous

00:49:14.260 because they are not exposed to it.

00:49:17.880 They don't understand how it actually works.

00:49:19.560 It's much easier to fear monger about something

00:49:21.940 that you're unfamiliar with. It's much easier to hijack people's feelings of fear and distrust if

00:49:26.880 they don't even know the other group that they're dealing with. If they're completely unfamiliar

00:49:31.180 with the topic, then you can just push like fear mongering on them. But the people on TikTok who

00:49:38.320 have their own experiences with it, you know, can read that as bullshit. Yeah, totally in favor of 0.97

00:49:45.760 some comprehensive sweeping data privacy legislation that would absolutely affect TikTok.

00:49:51.100 Let's do that from a place of reason and, you know, national security of the American people.

00:49:58.420 Like, if we actually cared about that, let's go write that legislation.

00:50:03.120 In the end, TikTok and its part in our larger digital media ecosystem is huge.

00:50:08.720 So a potential ban would have major consequences, not just for the millions of people who use it, but for the way that information and discourse is spread.

00:50:16.520 oh this was cut from my newsweek article but it was good um it's so like i'm a member of this

00:50:28.640 coalition of tiktok members or i'm a member of this coalition of tiktokers tiktok influencers

00:50:35.200 um with the coalition has over 500 members and collectively they have over 500 million followers

00:50:43.960 And to put that in perspective, I believe that that is more than the collective monthly viewership of like Fox, CNN, and MSNBC, which is about 5 million.

00:50:55.440 So not just more, it's like 100 times more than their monthly viewership.

00:51:00.320 And that's just like their following count.

00:51:02.040 And, but I thought that that was, you know, really, I thought that that was a good way to highlight just how vast this infrastructure is and that we're not talking about cutting off like a couple million people or like, you know, a handful of people.

00:51:20.320 We're talking about dismantling in a communications infrastructure that is so vast that it is like literally hundreds of times the reach of the biggest news networks that we can think of.

00:51:33.400 That is not a decision that we should be taking lightly.

00:51:36.520 I'm so glad you added that.

00:51:38.580 I do think that for people who don't use TikTok, it's probably easy to think of it as like that Arrested Development line.

00:51:45.980 It's a TikTok, Michael. How many users could there be? A hundred? They might not necessarily

00:51:52.280 know the gravity of the way that it functions as a communications platform and its role in

00:52:01.220 our larger ecosystem of digital communications, which is vast. It's huge. It's huge. And people

00:52:06.440 don't understand that it's not a dancing app and that it is in fact an information app that is a

00:52:11.120 discourse app and that there is like so much existing infrastructure which has been built

00:52:16.100 over the course of the last few years to mobilize people particularly for progressive causes

00:52:21.860 and if you take that away we're going to have to rebuild it and rebuilding takes time

00:52:27.620 rebuilding is a way of keeping people down right like the reason why legacy news institutions are

00:52:33.060 so powerful is that they don't have to rebuild every four to five years it's like you build power

00:52:38.600 by, you know, having stability in your institution.

00:52:43.660 And if you take all of these young people

00:52:45.160 who have finally found a bit of power

00:52:47.540 and particularly marginalized young people

00:52:49.720 who have finally found a bit of power

00:52:51.300 and then you force them to rebuild again,

00:52:53.780 you're removing all of their access to power.

00:52:57.200 And like, sure, they'll get it back in a few years,

00:52:59.400 but a lot can happen in a few years.

00:53:03.260 Yeah, and wouldn't it be,

00:53:05.300 And I guess it would be to have to force these folks to have to rebuild for something that didn't even really achieve much, right?

00:53:14.620 For something that didn't even really achieve much meaningful action in terms of protecting digital national security.

00:53:23.060 That is like, to me, is like the real cruelty of it, I guess.

00:53:26.080 Yeah, I mean, for it to be done for such a pointless cause for which there is no evidence of harm in the first place is deeply unsettling.

00:53:42.700 To be like, you know, really challenging our First Amendment rights in the way that they are threatening to with zero evidence.

00:53:54.080 Again, we have more evidence against Facebook than we do against TikTok.

00:53:58.780 And to ban TikTok, I mean, it's such a concerning choice for the First Amendment.

00:54:08.720 And, like, usually I'm on the misinfo side of, like, having to be like, well, you know, free speech is not free reach.

00:54:13.880 But, like, right now it's like, yes, no, free speech does matter.

00:54:16.620 And, like, this is a First Amendment issue.

00:54:18.520 Yeah, this is the government regulating.

00:54:20.020 Like, how many times are you in the comment section being like, well, this isn't the government regulating something.

00:54:25.260 It's a private platform regulating something.

00:54:26.720 So it's a little bit different.

00:54:28.100 Maybe don't evoke the First Amendment.

00:54:29.660 This is actually the government regulating something.

00:54:33.320 So, like, all those free speech people, like, mobilize.

00:54:37.580 Like, let's hear from you.

00:54:38.820 I know.

00:54:39.140 It's, like, so quiet from the free speech absolutionists right now.

00:54:43.480 like they cared a lot when tiktok was censoring medical misinformation that tiktok had every

00:54:52.420 right to be to be removing um but if the government is actually coming for a platform

00:54:57.980 where a hundred and million 150 million people practice the utilization of their voices

00:55:05.760 that seems like a free speech issue to me

00:55:09.620 It does. That seems like a challenge on our First Amendment rights.

00:55:15.280 Really scary one, too. I was like, yeah, watching the hearing was quite scary to me.

00:55:21.700 What what scared you about it?

00:55:23.880 I think that there was this strange element of like, OK, I did I. 1.00

00:55:29.680 When I learned about the Red Skier in history class, I didn't anticipate living through another one. 0.57

00:55:34.920 um that was like weird to watch in real time I was like oh I thought that was like a historical

00:55:42.160 event um I thought we didn't do that again um so it had that element to it where they were like

00:55:48.180 asking the CEO of TikTok who I don't know his personal finances but if he's not a billionaire

00:55:55.860 he is a multi-millionaire just asking him if he's a communist it had a wild tone to it

00:56:04.220 But on a much deeper level, the lengths that they will go to to take away our free speech in the name of just xenophobia, that was really scary to me.

00:56:27.160 I don't think that that symbolized like massive steps towards a more progressive world that felt like taking steps backwards towards, you know, stricter borders and more nationalism and stricter laws and just creating this divide between the West and the East.

00:56:48.800 and just trying to reimpose this iron curtain of sorts,

00:56:56.000 this digital iron curtain.

00:56:58.680 Like that felt really dark to me.

00:57:01.440 I mean, when you put it that way, yeah, it's,

00:57:06.960 I hadn't picked up on that vibe,

00:57:11.420 but now that you say it, it is scary.

00:57:13.880 And I don't think it's, I don't think, I don't think it's discourse that leads us to a more just progressive world. It seems like it leads us someplace else.

00:57:25.280 yeah it seems like it shuts us down and puts us deeper into like isolationist thinking and that's

00:57:33.780 not the type of thinking that i want to see our worlds practicing um i would like to see you know

00:57:41.400 the internet was always promised as this thing that would like bring global citizens together

00:57:46.260 i i don't believe that we are in any sort of like technological utopia or that the internet is

00:57:53.460 perfect. But I do see the internet's capacity for connection and connection with people that

00:58:00.880 you would otherwise like never have spoken to or heard their stories. So earlier you were talking

00:58:06.380 about like seeing women in Iran protesting and how you feel like you wouldn't have

00:58:13.880 been exposed to that without TikTok. And I worry that if we continue down this path of

00:58:21.800 of implementing these strict bans and, like, insisting that we control all of these social

00:58:29.580 media platforms, that, like, it'll continue to cut us off. And that's not what I want to see.

00:58:37.320 Hear, fucking hear. Abby, thank you so much for being here. This was informative. I'm really glad. 0.98

00:58:43.300 Everyone should read your Newsweek piece. We're going to put it in the show notes.

00:58:46.520 But yeah, this was great. I feel like I learned a lot.

00:58:49.000 I'm glad that you let me come rant.

00:58:50.820 I wrote the piece and I was like, I know who I need to send this to.

00:58:53.640 Oh, you have an open invite.

00:58:55.520 Anytime you're like, I'm annoyed about this, you have an open invite.

00:59:00.200 Well, you know, I love coming on your show.

00:59:02.000 It's always fun.

00:59:02.860 You were like one of the first ever podcasts that I did and you were so nice to me.

00:59:06.160 Oh my God, I remember it very clearly.

00:59:08.440 You were such a pro.

00:59:09.580 I had no idea what I was doing.

00:59:10.840 It was all, I was faking it.

00:59:12.340 Now you've got the mic, you've got the pop filter.

00:59:15.560 Look at you.

00:59:16.380 now i know what we're doing i i know that i can like when i first started i didn't know that i

00:59:24.400 could like restart a sentence when i like the first time i ever did podcasts so the pressure

00:59:29.360 was way higher but now i know i can oh i love a restart i restart like but i i catch myself

00:59:35.340 doing it in casual conversation where i'm like nope no one's gonna come in and clean this up

00:59:38.680 But, you know...

00:59:40.020 You're like, there's no editor right now.

00:59:44.860 Still, sometimes it's good to just restart because you're like,

00:59:46.940 you know what, that sentence had a false, it was a faulty start,

00:59:49.580 and it doesn't even matter if I'm being recorded.

00:59:53.320 It'll make more sense if you just let me scratch it and start over again.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - March 28, 2023

Banning TikTok would hurt marginalized communities

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