There Are No Girls on the Internet - #DisabledandCute

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.520 Guaranteed human.

00:00:04.100 The new Red Bull Dragonberry and Tropicberry Energizers,

00:00:08.680 now at McDonald's.

00:00:10.400 Made with freeze-dried fruit and an electric burst of flavor.

00:00:14.920 The all-new Red Bull Energizers, now at McDonald's.

00:00:19.360 This product may not be right for you.

00:00:20.700 High in caffeine.

00:00:21.320 Details at mcdonalds.ca

00:00:22.320 and participating Canadian restaurants excluding Quebec.

00:00:24.620 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

00:00:26.940 Think again.

00:00:27.560 More Americans listen to podcasts,

00:00:29.020 then add supported streaming music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster

00:00:33.160 iheart's twice as large as the next two combined learn how podcasting can help your business call

00:00:37.800 844-844-iheart i survived nine months in captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people

00:00:46.160 survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files

00:00:52.040 every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable abducted stalked controlled and

00:00:58.480 nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The

00:01:04.500 Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

00:01:10.380 get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality,

00:01:15.860 welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone

00:01:21.660 who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week,

00:01:26.180 we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture

00:01:29.220 with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:01:34.000 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:01:35.760 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:42.020 This episode is dedicated to the memory of my friend, Michael Brooks,

00:01:45.460 a brilliant podcaster and even better friend.

00:01:47.700 Rest in power.

00:01:48.240 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:02:01.660 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:02:06.980 This week marks the 30th anniversary of the signing of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

00:02:11.720 And even though the World Bank estimates that 15% of the world experiences some form of disability,

00:02:17.040 Sometimes it can feel like our world is built for able-bodied people alone.

00:02:20.740 But even in a world that isn't always accessible or inclusive,

00:02:24.260 people with disabilities still love themselves, love their bodies,

00:02:27.860 and are worthy of desire, love, and joy.

00:02:30.980 And when that kind of self-love isn't represented in the media,

00:02:33.940 they change the game to make sure it's included anyway.

00:02:40.840 My upbringing was very typical.

00:02:43.780 black girl upbringing my mom was very much a person who was like I'm raising you Kia like I

00:02:56.080 would raise your twin sister Leah or your older brother Eric there was never anything where it

00:03:01.200 was like if they got scooters or bikes or rollerblades or whatever we would figure out a way

00:03:09.660 for me to get that too. We had to figure out a way for me to be able to do those things as well.

00:03:14.720 She was very keen on making sure that I knew that I may have had to work a little harder,

00:03:22.140 but I was going to be able to do what they were doing because she wasn't going to take me using

00:03:29.120 disability as an excuse for anything. In 2017, writer Kia Brown created a movement on social

00:03:36.980 media to celebrate the fact that having a disability doesn't mean you have to hate your

00:03:40.840 body. Her debut book, The Pretty One, chronicles all the things she loves in life. Hollywood,

00:03:46.800 football, and being born with cerebral palsy and learning to love herself and her body.

00:03:52.620 But she didn't always feel this way. In your book, you write about yearning to be what you

00:03:57.300 call normal and yearning for refuge from a steady stream of hate society strengthened inside of you.

00:04:02.500 how did society make you feel that way um really through messaging with you know advertising and

00:04:11.260 like representation in media and the only times that I would see someone who looked sort of like

00:04:17.520 never like me completely because you know I've never had that but whenever I would see someone

00:04:22.920 it was because of those um you know like very exploitive telethons and people were always

00:04:28.740 staring when I would enter public spaces. And even before I realized exactly what disability

00:04:34.800 meant, I knew that the stares that I would get from people who didn't know me, didn't care to

00:04:41.480 know me, didn't love me, were always negative. You know, they always looked at me with a sort of like

00:04:48.560 pity or with this like inherent disgust. And even as a child, I picked up on that very easily.

00:04:56.540 This lack of representation really impacted Kia.

00:05:00.240 If people who look like me aren't getting shown love, she thought, then I must not be worthy of it at all.

00:05:05.680 The people that were getting the happily ever afters, you know, the people that were getting the love or the attention or the excitement in their lives were people who didn't look like me.

00:05:17.720 So I really did aid in my own self-hatred because I was like, I must not be worthy enough if I'm not being represented.

00:05:26.540 Do you ever have that little voice in your head that says mean things about yourself? 0.98

00:05:30.600 You're worthless. 1.00

00:05:31.740 You're ugly. 1.00

00:05:32.860 You're lazy. 1.00

00:05:33.900 You don't deserve love. 0.99

00:05:35.040 You don't deserve good things.

00:05:36.740 It can really get us stuck in a loop of negative self-talk where we start to really believe

00:05:40.380 and internalize those things.

00:05:42.300 To get to the other side, Kia had to untrain her brain out of negative self-talk to go

00:05:47.320 from self-hate to self-love.

00:05:49.440 She started out each day by saying four nice things about herself.

00:05:53.020 Breaking the cycle of negativity took a lot of work.

00:05:56.480 So how did you get to the other side of that, to feel like someone who was worthy of love and desire and all those good things?

00:06:02.400 Yeah, I mean, I always say, too, that it's a constant effort, you know?

00:06:06.840 It's like every single day I have to still do that work.

00:06:10.600 And for me, I mean, it took a lot of crying and a lot of promising myself that, like, there was something worthy on the other side of it.

00:06:19.540 And it just took this sort of, like, exhaustion with beating myself up.

00:06:23.800 And so for me, it was like every single day I would say the four things that I liked about myself, of course, in the mirror, but I would also actively stop, actively try to stop a negative thought in my brain. 0.93

00:06:37.860 So my brain would be like, oh, you're worthless. And I would counteract that with examples of when I wasn't quote unquote worthless or when someone needed me and when they cared about me or did something just because they wanted to.

00:06:54.740 So I really had to actively train my brain to reroute itself from my inherent negative thoughts about myself. And I mean, it's not easy work. Like I said, I'm still doing it every single day. And it wasn't necessarily as simple as saying four things in the mirror.

00:07:11.800 but those four things in the mirror were a catalyst to me allowing myself to then work

00:07:18.660 to retrain my brain to stop itself from saying things like oh you're not worthy of love you're

00:07:25.140 this you're that to saying you are worthy of love just as you are you are worthy of care

00:07:31.040 and kindness and joy as much as anyone else um and so yeah it's been it's been a journey because

00:07:38.920 I think with the hashtag Disabled and Cute, a lot of people were like, oh, well, you fixed

00:07:44.720 yourself. You're happy now. But I mean, it is an every single day, constant battle to remind

00:07:53.700 myself, especially now in these current political times, to remind myself that all this work that

00:08:00.740 I've put in is worthy work. And that work just means that even though I have to keep doing it

00:08:07.340 every day, that just means that that makes it that much more important because it's necessary

00:08:11.580 to work at so that I can wake up every day and be the best version of myself, not only for myself,

00:08:17.380 but for the world at large, for people who don't see people like me every single day and I'm their

00:08:23.180 window in. When Kia first tweeted a few selfies using the hashtag disabled and cute, she wasn't

00:08:29.260 expecting to start a movement that would be a call for people with disabilities all over the globe to

00:08:33.660 celebrate their bodies. She was just looking at selfies of herself and thinking, damn, I look 0.97

00:08:38.040 good. Walk me through how you were feeling on February 12th when you first tweeted a selfie 0.97

00:08:43.560 using the hashtag disabledandcute. I felt like a bad bleep. I really felt so good that day.

00:08:52.380 I felt so good that day. And I was looking at those pictures and there were pictures that I

00:08:57.280 had taken before the 12th you know but I was looking at them with this like excitement and

00:09:04.940 this renewed sense of self-worth you know I was like oh you didn't even know it but first of all

00:09:13.080 Kia that outfit that you have standing up by the door in one of the pictures slaps you look

00:09:19.380 fantastic your skin looks clear like all these things that I didn't see when the pictures were

00:09:25.340 taken. I just woke up that morning and I was like, we still feel so good about ourselves. It's time 0.99

00:09:32.440 to celebrate. Now, if you know anything about me, I'm very online. And so I was like, I'm going to

00:09:38.320 celebrate on Twitter and I'm going to do so with the idea that I'm both disabled and cute. So I was

00:09:48.180 like oh I like the way that sounds disabled and cute not either or so I picked the pictures that

00:09:55.220 I thought I looked my cutest in and then I posted it thinking like a couple of my friends would

00:10:01.640 retweet it because they love me and like I wanted other people to use it and I'm pretty sure in the

00:10:06.240 thread I was like I hope that people use this and then by the end of that week we had went viral

00:10:12.260 and then the end of next week it went global and I were like were you expecting that and I was like

00:10:16.900 no, literally I was expecting five people to retweet it and be like, girl, you look so cute.

00:10:22.720 And I would be like, love you. Thank you. And that would be the end of it. So it is interesting

00:10:28.480 the way that like, it sounds so cliche to say, but I wasn't expecting to go viral. And maybe

00:10:34.460 that's why it happened. After the hashtag went viral, Kia says magazines that she previously

00:10:39.900 didn't feel pretty enough to ever see herself in were calling to interview her. But more importantly

00:10:44.400 than that, other people with disabilities were able to share their stories online and feel

00:10:48.840 connected. The internet helped her have that thing we're all looking for, a sense of community and

00:10:54.880 belonging and a chance to feel seen. If not for social media, that might not have happened.

00:11:00.920 I think without it, it wouldn't have been possible. Like, I just think that we live in a world where

00:11:06.600 if I didn't have the internet, I wouldn't have the career that I have or the opportunities that I

00:11:11.320 have had and it's like I've worked hard for them let me be clear no one's handed me anything

00:11:15.500 but the reach that comes with social media um is not to be discounted you know and so much of

00:11:27.020 the work that I've done has been so much about me sharing my personality along with the work

00:11:32.440 and so people will be like oh I want to work with Kia because I think she's funny and she's talented

00:11:38.860 or like I want to work with Kia because this tweet made me laugh and like I didn't know she

00:11:43.680 wanted to talk about this and now I'm going to give her the opportunity to talk about it

00:11:47.120 like it's just it's very interesting the way that um social media works because I tweet and

00:11:54.420 Instagram as though nobody's actually looking at them and then you find out that they are and

00:11:59.540 they're like hey I want to help in any way I can like there's that that sense of community that

00:12:04.340 that feeling of belonging in a way that I never had before.

00:12:08.620 You have one of my favorite quotes of all time.

00:12:11.000 Twitter is like a trash can on fire,

00:12:12.720 but it has all the things you love inside the trash can.

00:12:15.620 Can you tell me more about that?

00:12:17.000 But that's, it's really what it's like.

00:12:18.560 It's like, yes, this place is a mess.

00:12:21.120 You know, there's so many things wrong with it.

00:12:23.480 And like some days you're just like,

00:12:25.720 this is the worst place.

00:12:26.900 Why am I still here?

00:12:28.160 But you stay because first of all,

00:12:30.040 you have people that you care about.

00:12:31.560 You know, you can talk freely about so many things. You know, I can jump from talking about a TV show to a movie to talking about how attractive like Kiki Lane and Idris Elba are or to talk about like politics or disability issues.

00:12:51.100 And so for everything that's bad about social media or places like Twitter, there's a hundred things that are good about it.

00:13:00.320 You know, the fostering of community for me, meeting people who have become such inherent parts of my life through social media first, you know, and through Twitter first.

00:13:11.220 And now these people I talk to every single day, these people I trust with so much of my life.

00:13:17.080 And so Twitter is a dumpster fire, but there are so many good things about it. And so even when it's, you know, on fire, you can go to a corner of the Internet that's not and you can find solace there.

00:13:29.300 And so it's special in that way because like all things, nothing is perfect, but so much of what I find keeps me going back to Twitter is the relationships that I've made there and the ability to be able to say what I want to say and not apologize for the space that I take up on the internet, you know, and to not apologize for having an opinion, you know.

00:13:57.500 Because I think a lot of black women, particularly too, like black disabled women, we don't have offline spaces where we're as heard or as seen as the Internet makes us or allows us to be.

00:14:14.900 Let's take a quick break.

00:14:15.860 the new red bull dragon berry and tropic berry energizers now at mcdonald's made with freeze

00:14:28.080 dried fruit and an electric burst of flavor the all-new red bull energizers now at mcdonald's

00:14:35.840 this product may not be right for you high in caffeine details at mcdonald's.ca and

00:14:39.240 participating canadian restaurants excluding quebec run a business and not thinking about

00:14:43.160 podcasting? Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music

00:14:48.320 from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next

00:14:53.280 two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart

00:14:58.200 can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your

00:15:02.780 business? Think iHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartAdvertising.com.

00:15:09.200 That's iHeartAdvertising.com.

00:15:11.760 If your bookshelf and your For You page

00:15:13.740 are equally important to your personality,

00:15:16.160 welcome home.

00:15:17.700 This is Prose Society,

00:15:19.780 the weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:15:22.340 part group chat for thought daughters,

00:15:24.100 pop culture obsessives,

00:15:25.240 and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice

00:15:27.120 and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:15:30.160 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week,

00:15:31.880 we're connecting the dots between books,

00:15:33.860 the internet, and the conversations

00:15:35.280 everyone can't stop having.

00:15:37.340 I'm going to have to look up this story.

00:15:39.200 I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed.

00:15:40.880 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators

00:15:43.460 to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

00:15:47.180 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters,

00:15:52.780 then that is a Trojan horse.

00:15:54.640 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations,

00:15:58.660 or a community of readers who love to think a little too much,

00:16:02.180 you're in the right place.

00:16:03.540 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app,

00:16:06.460 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:16:09.800 See you between the pages.

00:16:11.840 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:16:17.760 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:16:24.160 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:16:27.840 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:16:33.260 shut up, don't say anything.

00:16:35.920 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.98

00:16:40.460 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:16:45.020 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:16:52.460 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:16:56.420 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:16:59.860 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:17:03.000 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:17:14.480 And we're back.

00:17:16.360 It's funny how in the time of COVID, workplaces and events and activities are all making it so they can be done remotely.

00:17:22.680 But disability activists have been calling for the world to be more accessible for a long time.

00:17:27.240 And it seems like everyone else is just now catching up.

00:17:29.620 This is a huge problem.

00:17:31.740 When spaces aren't accessible, voices get shut out.

00:17:34.940 Kia says that's one reason why the internet can be such an important space for people with disabilities.

00:17:39.900 In an IRL world that isn't always built with them in mind,

00:17:42.940 online, folks can build their own little corner of the web to find community and connection.

00:17:47.820 A lot of places are inaccessible, you know?

00:17:50.200 And so when we talk about the specificity or specific, whatever, the specifics, I can't say the word.

00:18:01.240 specificity of you know things like disability places are inaccessible there's no places to sit

00:18:07.400 elevators don't work railings are broken um there's just no place to rest whereas like if

00:18:14.100 I'm on the internet I can be on the internet from my bed or from a chair in my house or you know I

00:18:21.380 can show up and be like this is who I am and this is what you're gonna get and I'm not apologizing

00:18:25.820 because it feels like that meme of Sheree being like,

00:18:34.180 who's going to check me, boo?

00:18:35.900 Because you have trolls and people who say negative things,

00:18:42.800 but at the end of the day, who's going to check me?

00:18:44.700 What are you going to do?

00:18:47.700 Me living out loud and being happy and sharing my stories

00:18:53.100 and, you know, manifesting things and, like, talking about my experiences, like, what are

00:19:00.660 you going to do about it? You can't be like, oh, no, you can't do that on your platform

00:19:04.140 because I'm going to be who I am regardless. And in places where I feel like Black women

00:19:12.200 in particular are shut out by white voices, whether that's male or female, we can go on

00:19:19.020 the internet into our own profiles or whatever and we can say the things that we wanted to say

00:19:25.120 in those spaces where we're often shut out or just ignored or we never get the chance to speak.

00:19:31.520 There's no one going before us in our own spaces that, you know, might take up too much time or

00:19:38.820 we just ran out of time to hear from you. On the internet, there's never someone running out of

00:19:45.660 time to hear from you you get to be your opener and the main act you don't have to be like oh well

00:19:54.360 you know I'm just waiting my turn just biding my time no you just get to be able to be your full

00:20:01.220 self whatever you want to share with the world and no one's going to be like oh um let me speak

00:20:06.640 for you which I think makes the internet that much more special because oh like they can't be like

00:20:15.180 oh no you're talking too much I mean people do don't get me wrong they'll be like you're talking

00:20:20.240 too much about disability you're talking too much about queerness you're talking too much about

00:20:23.720 blackness um but I can also be like black black black and blockity black black and so it's nice

00:20:30.480 because you are really able to share your full self without having to be like I don't have to 0.72

00:20:37.200 tolerate racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, et cetera, et cetera, on my page in this community

00:20:45.340 that I've created. And there's nothing you can do about it. You can be mad, but you can't stop me

00:20:52.160 from trying to create a space where the people that I care about, my people and myself, feel

00:20:59.120 comfortable. Like all of us, Kia is a multifaceted person with a wide variety of interests, things

00:21:04.860 she's good at and thinks she likes talking about. On Twitter, you can find her talking

00:21:08.300 about disability rights in one moment and lipstick in the next. This shouldn't come

00:21:12.700 as a surprise to you. We're literally all like this. But there's an underlying assumption

00:21:17.500 for folks who have disabilities that that's the one thing that defines them. Do you ever

00:21:22.200 feel that people, you know, expect you to only write about disability and disability

00:21:27.840 activism online as if that's like the only thing about you?

00:21:30.820 yes they do they absolutely do they're like um like the ada is the ada 30th anniversary is coming

00:21:40.460 up and i've gotten so many um articles like will you write about it will you do this will you do

00:21:46.300 that and these same people some of them you know i'm like heck yeah i'll write about it like what

00:21:50.340 do you mean i i care about this thing but so many other people would not have reached out to me to

00:21:56.440 write about it for write about anything else for the publication just the disability stuff and I

00:22:03.140 think for a while that really bothered me because I was like why can't you see that I have other

00:22:08.100 interests um why can't you see that I am a fully realized human being that isn't just always your

00:22:15.820 disability uh your disability liaison and um then then I got to a point where I was like I'll tell

00:22:25.620 these stories but remember Kia you can also say no and saying no for me is really hard I'm like a

00:22:31.920 inherent professional people pleaser but like just like professionally like I can say no

00:22:39.500 personally but I never can say no professionally it seems and so I'm working on that but also it's

00:22:45.500 just like if somebody gives me the opportunity and they're like hey I want you to touch on

00:22:49.060 disability what they don't understand is they're going to get a Trojan horse I'll touch on 0.71

00:22:52.940 disability because you want me to. Like, I'm going to do the requirements of the job, but I'm also 0.99

00:22:57.680 going to talk about other things because I've decided that, you know, especially in writing

00:23:03.520 The Pretty One, so many of those essays were me talking about things that I was never going to

00:23:07.680 get the opportunity to in freelance pieces and me talking about religion and talking about music

00:23:14.440 and talking about pop culture on a deeper level. That was my Trojan horse. I was like, I'll talk

00:23:20.820 about disability we'll talk about the hashtag we'll talk about what it means to be disabled

00:23:26.160 we'll talk about cp and exploitive telethons but i'm also going to talk to you about paramore

00:23:31.100 and general rato and i'm going to talk to you about cheesecake and the wild thornberries and

00:23:36.900 i'm going to talk to you about clothes and these other things that i never ever ever get the

00:23:42.640 opportunity to talk about in this book and then it took the book being published for people to be

00:23:47.860 like oh so you do like clothes and you do like um um tv and you do like this thing that me this

00:23:57.060 person who's not disabled also enjoys I said wow isn't that isn't that something the way that

00:24:03.240 happens how we all have you know things that we enjoy whether we're disabled or not that disabled

00:24:08.480 people are actually people and not just their disability magic um so it's it's been interesting

00:24:16.320 now because I feel like I'm in a better place where I can say no to things, but also I can

00:24:24.960 assert the fact that there are certain things that I want to talk about and that I'm going to

00:24:29.400 talk about. And it's like, either you come on that ride with me or you get left in the dust.

00:24:36.740 So how do we get to a place where the assumption is, of course, this person is a multifaceted,

00:24:40.960 complex human being? How can we get to a place where that's the default and not something you

00:24:44.540 have to kind of trick people into understanding? Yeah, I mean, oof, oof, what a question.

00:24:50.000 Maybe it's too big of a question. I mean, it kind of is, but I think it really does take effort

00:24:56.600 on their part to ensure that they're willing to learn and they're willing to see people who don't

00:25:06.060 look like them in some way as human beings inherently. Like, it can't just be the job of

00:25:12.040 disabled people or queer people or Black people or other people of color to say, hey, I'm human.

00:25:20.880 Hey, I'm a fully realized person just like you. Like that whole thing about reaching across the

00:25:25.240 aisle exhausts me because reaching across the aisle for somebody who's holding a gun to your

00:25:30.360 head, like what, you know what I mean? I think that it's an inherent societal thing where it

00:25:36.080 can't just be the marginalized people begging the oppressors to see our worth. It has to be

00:25:44.160 a fully collective willingness for the people in power, specifically for me in terms of

00:25:51.760 representation on TV and in film, to show aspects of lived realities that aren't so steeped in

00:26:00.700 trauma so that the only time that you see someone who's different than you is so based in trauma and

00:26:07.840 death and pain that you don't see them as real human beings. You see them as these sort of

00:26:12.980 objects that take nothing but constant pain and trauma and torture. Like Black people know joy,

00:26:20.940 disabled people know joy, queer people know joy, and some of us at those intersections of all three

00:26:28.020 or four or five or six or whatever we experience happiness and so why is it that the only time

00:26:35.980 we're valuable is when you can mine our pain for entertainment you know and so I think a lot of it

00:26:42.400 will really start with representation and I think that of course representation isn't the issue it's

00:26:47.420 not going to save the world but it's a start more after this quick break

00:26:52.300 the new red bull dragon berry and tropic berry energizers now at mcdonald's made with freeze-dried

00:27:04.860 fruit and an electric burst of flavor the all-new red bull energizers now at mcdonald's this product

00:27:13.080 may not be right for you high in caffeine details at mcdonald's.ca and participating

00:27:16.060 canadian restaurants excluding quebec run a business and not thinking about podcasting

00:27:20.380 Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify

00:27:25.320 and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

00:27:30.500 So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart can extend

00:27:34.920 your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business?

00:27:39.560 Think iHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-iHeart to get started. That's 844-844-iHeart.

00:27:48.060 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:27:54.500 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,

00:28:00.640 pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:28:06.680 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:28:13.640 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed, so obsessed.

00:28:16.920 from best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments

00:28:21.820 nothing is off the table it's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling

00:28:28.360 characters and that is the trojan horse whether you're looking for literary deep dives smart

00:28:33.640 pop culture conversations or a community of readers who love to think a little too much

00:28:38.400 you're in the right place listen to pro society on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever

00:28:44.860 you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held

00:28:52.260 captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what

00:28:58.740 should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember

00:29:05.080 this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week I'm with 0.97

00:29:13.940 survivors who lived through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going

00:29:20.760 to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started

00:29:27.460 screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories

00:29:34.180 about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:29:39.540 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:29:51.120 And we're back.

00:29:52.980 Now, for marginalized people, representation isn't the end-all be-all, but it is something.

00:29:58.200 And for as many Americans experience some kind of disability, disability representation is pretty dismal.

00:30:03.860 In most movies and TV shows, either a character with disability is shown hating their body

00:30:08.860 and hating themselves, or maybe if they're lucky, they experience a fleeting temporary

00:30:13.260 love before dying and finally being, quote, free of their disability.

00:30:19.780 In a piece for Teen Vogue, Kia wrote about the way that people depicted the late Stephen

00:30:23.760 Hawking after his death as finally being free of his wheelchair in the afterlife.

00:30:27.980 But here's the thing.

00:30:29.120 As Kia points out in her piece, Hawking didn't really have a big problem with having a disability.

00:30:33.800 In fact, he says, if anything, they helped him in a way by shielding him from lecturing and administrative work that he would have otherwise had to have been involved in.

00:30:42.180 So why are people so quick to erase disability or assume that people that have disabilities hate their bodies and their disability?

00:30:49.880 Kia wants to open us up to more nuanced and complex depictions of disability, even if it's something she has to create herself.

00:30:56.040 i want to create things tv or film that showcase people like me in the lead but let us go beyond

00:31:08.360 the idea of like oh we hate ourselves like life sucks why don't you just like let me die how could

00:31:15.660 you love me this is what i'm missing out by being disabled this is the life that i had before 0.96

00:31:20.640 it because right now disability representation is so caught up in this idea that like people

00:31:27.360 come into disability and they lose so much value or joy in their life and it's like but what about

00:31:33.760 us who were born this way you know i've been disabled since 1991 okay and like i've never 0.99

00:31:40.800 known anything else and i don't feel like i'm missing out on anything i feel like this is who

00:31:45.840 I am and I am allowed the full spectrum of human emotion and it's about time that I see a movie

00:31:54.480 where the disabled girl gets the love interest and she doesn't die and sure I had to write it

00:32:02.360 but hopefully you know what I mean but hopefully it'll get made and and I have all these ideas

00:32:08.840 for this medium that i love so much to be more inclusive and to be broader and um just more fun

00:32:22.460 i think that like what i always say is we critique the things we love the most right

00:32:27.900 i'm very um much a person who critiques hollywood because i love

00:32:33.400 Hollywood. I love the idea of creating something that people can watch in a theater, creating

00:32:40.020 something that they can watch from their computer on Netflix or Hulu or any sort of streaming

00:32:46.100 service. And because I love it so much, I'm like, fine, if I have to be the person who creates the

00:32:52.520 representation, great, because I know it'll be good. I'll rewatch it. You know, I have faith in

00:32:59.040 whatever it is that I'm creating but it's also that like it's hard because you get these moments

00:33:07.360 where things happen and they're like oh we're looking for this but I want it to not be so much

00:33:11.420 of a moment and more of a movement to have it be a thing that propels forward and not just this

00:33:17.600 one-off thing where like oh you get to be the one in the room just the one you know because nobody

00:33:24.500 wants to be by themselves. I don't want to be the only one in the room, which is a podcast that I

00:33:29.680 love, but I want to be among people that look like me, not just me being the person that's like,

00:33:37.820 hey, I'm speaking for X, Y, and Z delegation. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's so easy for marginalized

00:33:45.720 folks to be pigeonholed or pigeonholed in that way where, okay, we have the one who is going to

00:33:51.860 like check that box and now we can now we can say we've we've achieved diversity or something like

00:33:56.700 that like as opposed to really being interested in building out an inclusive room or an inclusive

00:34:02.460 space or an inclusive audience or what have you right and it's like it's just frustrating because

00:34:09.340 it's like that onus is so often on us you know like it's so often on us to be the ones to be

00:34:18.820 like let us in you know and I think Gabriel Union was the one that said like I don't want to sit at

00:34:23.520 your table if I had to bang to get in the room I'm gonna create my own table and I think what

00:34:30.240 has to happen is that like we are gonna have to create our own tables you know we are gonna be

00:34:35.300 have to be the ones that create our own tables and try our best to populate them with people

00:34:43.320 that we think are worthy because I don't want to be the person that, um, I don't want to be the

00:34:52.180 person that's like, oh yes, you chose me. Yay. I want to be the person that's like, here's,

00:34:57.500 here's me. Yes. But also here's five other people. Here's six other people. Here are people that you

00:35:02.980 should be listening to. It's funny that you mentioned Hollywood. There's this movie that

00:35:08.920 I loved growing up, like loved in like college when I was sort of a artsy-fartsy college kid,

00:35:13.720 Amelie. And there's a scene in the movie, have you seen the movie Amelie? Yes, I have.

00:35:17.700 So there's a scene in the movie Amelie. So Amelie is meant to be this like quirky,

00:35:21.080 you know, sweet French girl. And there's a scene where there's a man who is blind and she

00:35:26.180 takes him by the arm and it's played as if it's this like very sweet thing that she does for this

00:35:31.400 man who is blind, where she takes him and she describes all the things that he can't see 0.98

00:35:36.400 because he's blind and looking back now as an adult I realized how fucked up that is that and 0.97

00:35:42.820 how it was played to be like oh like she's so she's so in touch with humanity that she does this 0.99

00:35:47.740 and how insulting it is that she swoops in and like you know runs this guy around town and it's

00:35:54.400 sort of the audience is meant to think that it's a sweet gesture you know it's so clear to me that

00:35:58.960 hollywood needs voices like yours who can actually tell authentic stories about what it is like what

00:36:07.560 the experience of being a person with disabilities is actually like and when i watch that movie now

00:36:12.840 i'm like well clearly they didn't have anybody in the room who could speak to that experience

00:36:15.840 right because i watched well so i watched it in this um i think it was a film and cultures class

00:36:24.060 And like, I argued this very point, even before it's so funny that I did, because in college, I wasn't as vocal about what was going wrong in terms of representation as I am now. But yeah, even back then, I was like, no, what is this? Why? Like, why are we supposed to think that this is so great? I mean, we had like sections and we're like, oh, it was such a sweet moment.

00:36:50.080 And I'm like, no, it wasn't. She just like took this guy. He was minding his own business. And she was just like, let me show you all the things you can't see. Like, it was just very what I call inspiration porn. And it was very steeped in this idea of her being this like savior and doing this good deed for the day.

00:37:10.260 And I just was like, ew, it's disgusting, because that's what people think we want, you know?

00:37:19.140 And I think that that is an inherent part of representation, being what it is, is that people think that we want them to save us,

00:37:27.300 or we want them to show us what we're missing, quote-unquote, or love us, if only temporarily.

00:37:36.100 And that's harmful.

00:37:40.260 So if you're not familiar with what Kia is calling disability porn, you've probably

00:37:45.560 seen it all over social media.

00:37:47.960 Videos of kids with disabilities being asked to prom, or a kid with a disability joining

00:37:51.540 a sports team. 0.94

00:37:52.980 Videos that may seem harmless enough, but actually use a person with disabilities to

00:37:56.580 make able-bodied people feel better. 0.97

00:37:59.140 But people with disabilities don't exist to make able-bodied folks feel good, or to

00:38:03.220 be our inspiration.

00:38:05.220 Kia says sometimes people who are otherwise thoughtful about marginalized voices sometimes

00:38:09.000 share these videos with good intentions and in some ways that's even worse right they do and

00:38:14.760 i mean it's like it's even a little bit more frustrating because they get so many other

00:38:20.120 things you know but when it comes to that it's like they use it as you know my life might be

00:38:26.360 bad but it's just not that bad or wow look what they can do you should be able to do that too

00:38:32.120 random person i don't know on the internet or like or like hey you know it's it's just so

00:38:40.620 beautiful it made me cry this morning because they love a good like for your monday morning

00:38:45.320 cry or like oh this will be so sweet and like magical and just just 10 minutes of this will

00:38:51.900 make you feel so good and it's like who is it making feel good though like because it's certainly

00:38:57.600 not the person that you're turning into a spectacle for likes and retweets on the internet

00:39:05.260 um and so yeah it is it's harder I think when it's like well-meaning people who get so many

00:39:11.340 other aspects of lived experience but don't quite understand how they're being harmful and then when

00:39:18.020 you kindly say as much they buck against it and they're upset that you would even infer that

00:39:25.360 that's what they meant because they know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who's

00:39:30.180 disabled. So this podcast is about creating monuments to all the marginalized voices who

00:39:34.520 shape the internet. And when Disabled and Cute was happening, I saw you really having to fight

00:39:38.620 to make sure that you got credit for this creation. Did you feel like you had to be constantly

00:39:42.400 reminding people that this was something that you started just to make sure your voice wouldn't be

00:39:46.100 erased? Yes. So easy. Just last week, somebody messaged me and was like, I had no idea that

00:39:53.900 disabled and cute was your hashtag had no idea that you were the one who created it because um

00:40:02.300 it took that much work for me to be like this is i had to like ask people like please

00:40:07.420 like any sort of affluent person that i knew or person with a platform i was like

00:40:11.260 if you use the hashtag please say that it's mine because people were um you know just using it and

00:40:19.100 like talking about it in podcasts and never and never crediting me making t-shirts making enamel

00:40:26.400 pins all these other different things and my name was never mentioned and so it's funny because

00:40:32.240 people will literally still message me to this day being like I didn't know that it was yours

00:40:36.500 like I saw I watched somebody said they listened to a podcast that I did and that was the first

00:40:42.120 time they had heard that it was my hashtag that I created and and I think that happens to a lot

00:40:47.180 black creators not just me it happens all the time when you create um like blackout day is by

00:40:56.060 oh my god mars mars sebastian yeah she was uh she was on the show just last week yes yes yes

00:41:03.900 so it happened to her and they a celebrity attached themselves to it and they ran with

00:41:10.140 it and she was completely erased from that narrative and so it's very it's not surprising

00:41:16.940 when it happens but it does hurt because you put in all this work for this thing that you created

00:41:21.420 that was yours and your idea and other people jump on it and claim to be theirs just because

00:41:28.320 they found it and thought that that you know nobody was behind it they don't they never think

00:41:32.840 to do the research of who is the person behind this hashtag that I met that I happened to stumble

00:41:39.700 upon or this thing that I created it happens all the time specifically to black people I think on

00:41:46.060 the internet much more so because there isn't that inherent uh quest to credit them like there

00:41:55.420 might be someone who has someone's peer and they don't want to seem like they're biting their idea

00:42:00.640 did you feel that when that happened to disabled and cute that the actual message was co-opted or

00:42:07.680 whitewashed as well yes do we have the time yes it really was because what I found was like people

00:42:17.140 would write about especially when it first happened they would write about the hashtag right and my

00:42:22.980 name would be there like Kia Brown never a picture of me but no but always pictures of um white

00:42:29.400 disabled people using it like they would put this is what would get me when I would see articles

00:42:34.880 about it and they would tell me like we wrote about your hashtag and the person on the cover

00:42:39.280 of it would be a person who used it but it was never me and so I would see slideshows 0.82

00:42:45.680 celebrating the hashtag never any people of color ever just completely all white disabled people 0.74

00:42:53.400 and I'm like and I and I started to call them out I'm like you you said my name you wrote it down 0.94

00:42:58.700 but when you have a picture of somebody else as the head image you're giving them credit for

00:43:06.000 something they didn't even create they just used and so I would like implore that I would like

00:43:12.460 find the emails of the writers and and um say as much or when they would reach out to me to do an

00:43:19.240 interview I would say okay I'll do the interview but I want you to make sure that when you do a

00:43:24.040 slideshow of the hashtag and the pictures there it's diverse the fact that you would even have

00:43:32.180 to say that is so troubling and i think really illustrates how deep the problem goes because

00:43:38.440 you're you're not shy about being a black queer person right like that's a big part of how you

00:43:45.020 show up online show up to the world and so the fact that they would kind of erase that part of

00:43:52.180 of the creator of this thing they say they want to write about it just goes to show how deep the

00:43:57.680 problem goes yeah and it's it's funny because they like a couple of them pushed back they're

00:44:03.420 like well you know I'm just I'm um I'm only sharing you know what I see so I would go into

00:44:09.480 the hashtag and send them pictures of disabled people of color to put into the articles because

00:44:17.780 they couldn't see them from the hashtag and some of them would be like at the very top so I'm like

00:44:24.720 no you just scrolled past them because you that's your inherent bias and it was wild to me because

00:44:31.360 I was like I'm doing part of your job because you're uncomfortable with the idea of not only

00:44:39.480 showing a picture of the person who created the hashtag but showing pictures of people who look

00:44:44.560 like the person who created the hashtag using it.

00:44:47.520 I mean, yeah, it is, how you put it is so accurate,

00:44:50.260 having to do their job.

00:44:51.640 It's like, not only are you like,

00:44:53.880 first of all, you're like talent,

00:44:55.220 so really you should just be, you know,

00:44:56.900 they're writing about you,

00:44:58.200 but having to also curate their photos

00:45:02.040 so that they're inclusive,

00:45:03.360 having to also educate them on why

00:45:05.260 all of this unpaid labor that you're not really,

00:45:08.660 it's not really your job to do

00:45:10.340 that you're just expected to take on.

00:45:13.660 Right.

00:45:14.560 And it's really sad. And I think a big part of this is I think that folks in the media need to be better and take a little responsibility of the platforms that we're helping to create because it's, I don't know if it's laziness or not being able to see the full picture of what they're contributing to, but the standard has just got to be higher.

00:45:34.960 If we're going to tell these stories, either they need to be told thoughtfully and fully, or we need to not be telling them, right?

00:45:42.500 Like, we have to do it. We have to do justice by these stories.

00:45:46.020 And it's disheartening to hear the ways that folks in the media are just not prepared or not able or not willing to do that.

00:45:52.140 I think it's really about not apologizing for wanting proper representation

00:46:00.960 or not being cast aside as being some silly thing that doesn't really matter

00:46:04.800 because it matters, because our culture is shaped by the things that we see.

00:46:11.360 You know, how we view others, that's our window into the world.

00:46:15.740 And so if you're going to do the work, do the work.

00:46:18.680 Don't go 50% on something that needs to at least be 120.

00:46:23.700 If representation is the window to the world, then Kia is opening that window a little bit more.

00:46:28.660 In the fall of 2022, she'll release her first picture book with Atria Books called Sam Supercedes about a little Black girl with cerebral palsy going back to school shopping with her mom and best friends.

00:46:38.600 So the next generation of little ones with disabilities can see themselves reflected in the ways she wished she had when she was a kid.

00:46:44.820 Key has learned that sometimes you have to write the books you want to read

00:46:47.540 and create the world you want to see.

00:46:49.940 And even in a world full of people who can't see you,

00:46:52.600 can't see your joy or your dreams,

00:46:55.340 you can always see yourself.

00:46:57.600 Pretty much just trying to follow every single dream

00:46:59.780 because it feels like now anything is possible

00:47:02.680 in terms of me making sure that I always say yes to myself.

00:47:07.940 Because somebody's going to say no, but I'm not going to be the one to do it.

00:47:10.960 there are no girls on the internet was created by me 0.97

00:47:14.540 Bridget Todd

00:47:15.120 it's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative

00:47:17.800 Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer

00:47:19.960 Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer

00:47:22.420 Michael Amato is our contributing producer

00:47:24.500 I'm your host Bridget Todd

00:47:25.980 for more podcasts from iHeart

00:47:27.760 check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts

00:47:29.940 or wherever you get your podcasts

00:47:40.960 I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:47:51.320 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. Every

00:47:57.340 week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,

00:48:02.740 and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:48:07.940 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:48:16.320 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:48:22.080 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:48:30.380 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture

00:48:33.860 with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:48:38.640 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:48:40.400 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:48:48.220 Hey, this is Hayes Davenport.

00:48:50.100 And Sean Clements.

00:48:51.300 We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook.

00:48:53.260 Every episode, we're trying to help our guests improve their careers

00:48:55.860 by mainly focusing on how they can help us improve our careers.

00:48:59.100 The show's famously super accessible, so you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes and understand what's going on.

00:49:05.540 We recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stiller, Danny McBride, Riz Ahmed, and Mary Steenburgen.

00:49:10.460 Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:49:16.560 I'm Nick Turturro. You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard, or Spike Lee's Black Klansman.

00:49:22.540 And on my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, I deliver pizza to a new guest.

00:49:27.440 I've shared a slice with everyone, from Seth Rollins.

00:49:30.260 What are you doing with my belt?

00:49:31.500 To Bill Burr.

00:49:32.400 I don't think I've ever met somebody so exactly out of their mind as I am.

00:49:37.500 And now, we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Turturro.

00:49:42.160 It's called happiness.

00:49:43.220 Delivering happiness.

00:49:44.300 And many, many more.

00:49:45.760 Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, and listen now.

00:49:51.200 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:49:53.720 Guaranteed human.

There Are No Girls on the Internet - July 21, 2020

#DisabledandCute

Episode Stats

Transcript