00:03:09.140Is it any surprise that MLK was a Star Trek fan?
00:03:12.460In order to be an activist, you have to be able to imagine a future that's better than the current reality.
00:03:18.120and believe in the promise that the future includes people like you.
00:03:23.680Blair Armani is an activist, historian, and author.
00:03:27.200Like MLK before her, she's a huge Trekkie,
00:03:29.820and the show helped her imagine a future where people like her aren't just included,
00:03:34.260but where they can also live long and prosper.
00:03:37.060Last year, Blair went to Comic-Con in California.
00:03:40.000She cosplayed as Geordie LaForge, the Enterprise's chief engineer played by LeVar Burton.
00:03:45.360The character was a nod to George LaForge, a quadriplegic fan of the show.
00:03:50.580Geordi is blind, and a device called a visor gives him the ability to see.
00:03:54.800And if you're anything like me, you spent your childhood mimicking the device with a headband on your face.
00:04:00.580Blair wanted to dress as Geordi, but also add her own spin to it.
00:04:04.640I have always believed that Geordi LaForge of Star Trek is a Muslim because he's born, I think, on February 16th, 2335.
00:04:13.760not I think, I know, in Mogadishu, Somalia, which is a Muslim majority country. And in 300 years,
00:04:20.420it'll probably still be a Muslim majority country. So odds are that Geordi La Forge is a Black Muslim.0.99
00:04:25.400So I thought, oh, how fun and wholesome it will be for me to bring my religiosity and myself to
00:04:29.880this space. I did not anticipate it would go super viral. I did not anticipate pissing off Islamophobes.
00:04:37.120I mean, I kind of always anticipate that, but not in the Star Trek fandom. So it kind of turned into
00:04:42.560like some fun thing I could do. And of course, like most things, it became a political statement.
00:04:47.780You can find a link to Blair's outfit in the show notes, and I definitely suggest checking it out.0.58
00:04:52.680Her feminized, Islamicized take on Jordi LaForge with the hijab went viral.
00:04:58.500I had this beautiful robe from Elhoffer Design, which is based in Los Angeles,
00:05:02.480created by Katie Elhoffer. So woman-owned business, love that. I had the Jordi LaForge
00:05:06.920visor, which is his seeing device because Jordi LaForge is not sighted. He's blind, but he uses
00:05:13.680this vision device, visor device, in order to be able to see. So I had that. And then I put a nice
00:05:18.380black hijab on top of it. Blair said only three people asked her about cosplaying as a version
00:05:23.640of Jordi who presents as a woman. But it was the addition of the hijab that really riled people up.
00:05:29.980Some of the responses were really pedantic, like one Twitter user who said a hijab would violate
00:05:35.360the Starfleet's dress code so Blair what was the reaction like online you would have thought that
00:05:40.700I had like I don't know lit a holy book on fire the way some people were reacting so you have the
00:05:46.720one group of folks who um well actually I wouldn't have even photographed it if it wasn't for my
00:05:51.560friend Kalen Borowski who like he's my photographer like primarily and he was like you need to get
00:05:57.880photographs of this and I was like okay fine let's do it before I go to Comic-Con and I just posted
00:06:02.000it for Juma, which is, you know, Friday, Friday prayer day. And I was like, you know, Juma Mubarak
00:06:07.200to all the Muslims across the galaxy. And the pictures came out super iconic. And so I posted
00:06:11.500them. And it was wild because cast of the Star Trek franchise, like Will Wheaton and, you know,
00:06:20.860LeVar Burton himself and Michael Dorn and Brent Spinner saw the post and started sharing it
00:06:26.000themselves, which was like super duper validating. I was like on top of the world. And then of course
00:06:30.480the fans started to see it and then of course star trek.com itself started to see it um and so
00:06:36.260there was like this outpouring of like what is this the the the most exciting and kind of like
00:06:41.580I guess surprising aspect was that people thought I was a new character on the show Picard
00:06:46.560and I still get emails from people who are like when is your episode coming out I'm so excited
00:06:52.840so some people really liked it and some people really hated it but Blair couldn't understand0.63
00:06:59.580why her using Star Trek to affirm that the future includes Black Muslims like her was so shocking,
00:07:05.000particularly given that Star Trek was meant to show a vision of the future that includes everybody.
00:07:09.860It was really polarizing. On the one hand, as far as like social media went, it was like folks who
00:07:15.400were really excited or thought that I was a new character. Then you had folks saying things like,
00:07:20.200Gene Roddenberry didn't intend for Muslims to be in space. Muslims aren't in Star Trek. And I'm0.98
00:07:25.800like, first of all, Star Trek is fictional. Second of all, yeah, he did, because, you know,
00:07:30.280Gene Roddenberry, he believed in infinite diversity and infinite combinations. And Star
00:07:34.840Trek was a beloved show of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who actually encouraged, you know, Uhura,
00:07:41.620you know, the woman who plays Uhura to, like, continue on the show, and Nichelle Nichols.
00:07:47.480And so, like, not only is Gene Roddenberry not this like, you know, like anti-diversity, anti-PC dude, he was the reason there was the first interracial kiss on television between Captain Kirk and Lieutenant Uhura.
00:08:05.240So when people are saying there's no Muslims in space, I'm like, actually, I have evidence to back it up.
00:08:09.780But also, this isn't even a real universe.
00:08:11.460If you hate Muslims so much, maybe you should just say that instead of trying to use either, you know, your own fandom or something else to hide behind that.
00:08:20.780There's a rich tradition of activists finding inspiration and being able to see themselves in fictional worlds.
00:08:26.600It's one of the reasons why MLK wanted Nichelle Nichols to keep showing that kind of representation.
00:08:32.860Civil rights icon John Lewis was one of my heroes.
00:08:36.860And my favorite fact about him is that during Comic-Con,
00:08:43.000crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma during the Civil Rights Movement.
00:08:47.680At Comic-Con 2016, he wore the same coat and carried the same backpack
00:08:52.540that contained the same things he brought with him back on that fateful day in 1965.
00:08:58.180An apple, a toothbrush, and a comic book.
00:09:01.700All the things you need to survive a night in jail.
00:09:04.780At the convention, dressed as his own younger self,
00:09:08.360Lewis led kids on a little march around the convention
00:09:10.320to help them visualize that anyone could be a hero, even them.
00:09:14.860He was there to promote his own comic book,
00:09:17.360a graphic novel retelling of the March on Selma called March.
00:09:21.320Here is the late John Lewis at Comic-Con 2016,
00:09:24.820advocating for a new generation to create good trouble.
00:09:28.300The March, book one, but also book two.
00:09:33.920And when book three came out, it would inspire another generation of young people and people not so young to stand up, to speak up and speak up and get into trouble.
00:09:46.800It might sound strange for a civil rights icon to be talking about comics at a convention, but John Lewis says that he was first inspired to join the civil rights movement from reading a comic book about MLK called Dr. King, Martin Luther King and the Montgomery Story.
00:10:03.920I think it really shows that civil rights leaders and activists are real people with real interests.
00:10:12.740They're not just sort of like someone that you read about in February for Black History Month or like a picture in a book.
00:15:47.080And like, out to two million people who are probably in literacy to some extent.
00:15:52.360And that paved the way for me, not only getting my first book deal, but my second one with the same publishing house. So LeVar Burton's amazing. And so I, you know, couldn't relish the fact that I that, you know, imagery and things like TV and film shaped my own understanding as a reader and as, you know, an informed person.
00:16:11.240like you might remember Jimmy Neutron like they actually snuck in a lot of very important
00:16:16.820scientific and you know engineering information into that show like even Spongebob talks about
00:16:22.720things that like make sense in real life and so and the fact that Steve Hillenburg who created
00:16:28.440Spongebob was a marine biologist and wanted to convey that education to young people through
00:16:33.320his work so I was definitely informed by that and I think growing up in like the golden era
00:16:38.240of animation really helped me to kind of connect those two things. But I also like the idea of
00:16:44.100somebody picking up my book because it looks like a good coffee table book. It looks like a light
00:16:47.680read. And I do make my books accessible at a fifth grade level because most folks read at a fifth
00:16:52.280grade level and most magazines are written at a fifth grade level. But I like the idea of some
00:16:56.980sweet grandma who might have, you know, conservative politics picking up the book because it looks0.98
00:17:01.480friendly on the front cover, giving it to her, you know, offspring. And surprise, they're getting
00:17:07.520radicalized, they're getting educated about things that are complex and intricate in a way that is
00:17:12.660family friendly and, you know, age appropriate, but things that might not be covered until they
00:17:16.920get to college because of the limitations of the educational system. So especially with my second
00:17:22.200book, Making Our Way Home, even though there's a gay couple on the front cover in the form of my
00:17:26.720uncle Lester and a partner we imagined for him, I still get emails from people saying, I didn't know
00:17:32.400this book was going to be queer affirming. Of course, they don't say it like that. But I'm like,
00:17:36.280I didn't hide anything, but because it's presented in a certain way, it doesn't detract from people
00:17:43.260who are already seeking that material, but it also invites people in who might not have
00:17:47.520otherwise engaged with something like the Great Migration or Black history that covers everything
00:17:54.560from the period of enslavement to the creation of hip hop. So I try to use imagery to sneak my way0.81
00:18:14.520You know, Star Trek has really helped me envision what the future looks like.
00:18:17.960So often when we look at sci-fi, it's, you know, aliens from a different universe
00:18:23.320who have a completely different molecular structure,
00:18:25.320but for some reason they have a British accent.0.75
00:18:27.220Like, WTF, you know, like, white supremacy goes hard, I guess, even in sci-fi.
00:18:31.100And so I'm definitely not like under any delusions about why, you know, certain biases exist.
00:18:37.620It's because it's the limitations of our own imagination as people.
00:18:40.700But it's not only helped me understand diversity, it's helped me understand how I discuss religion at large.
00:18:46.620As a historian, and so often that means looking back in time, it's a really exciting thing to also look at sci-fi as a step towards the future.
00:18:55.140Star Trek has been fundamental in the identity formation of myself as a black woman and as a Muslim woman.
00:19:00.560And it's helped me speak about religion just to see how something as secular and something as, you know, low stakes, I guess, as Star Trek can be imbued with the same type of passion and vitriol, but also beauty that comes with religious debates.
00:19:16.300And I was actually at the School of Divinity at Princeton giving a talk and I was talking about canon.
00:19:23.200And, you know, today we talk about canon, like your fan, your fan canon, your head canon, things that, you know, to be true, but maybe aren't canonical to the actual franchise.
00:19:32.740You know, say things like maybe you believe all Pikachus are related in Pokemon, but you don't actually have a basis for things like that.
00:19:38.660And so I was talking about how in my head canon for Star Trek, Geordi LaForge is a black Muslim.
00:19:46.580And of course, that's influenced by my own skin in the game.
00:19:49.860I would also love there to be a black Muslim in my favorite show and my favorite character to be one.
00:19:54.260So, of course, I'm going to imbue that.
00:19:55.500But there's also a basis in the fact that he's born in Mogadishu, Somalia, which is canonical to the text.
00:20:00.380And I was talking about this in the context of religion and how, you know, we can all read the same religious scripture and come to completely different theological interpretations.
00:20:11.820And people tend to grasp that. But I was talking about how, of course, that happens.
00:20:16.560Like, I think some people get confused, like, how can we all read the same story of Genesis?
00:20:21.320And, you know, well, we're not even reading the same story.
00:20:24.660We're reading different interpretations, different translations, centuries old differences.
00:20:28.300we're reading uh people imbuing their own biases while they translate all these different things
00:20:34.240and it was so great because i was talking to this group at this very you know like fancy institution
00:20:38.960uh princeton talking about how star trek is a case study into why there's so much religious
00:20:45.240turmoil because if something is like i said low stakes of star trek can start a virtual flame war
00:20:52.300over what religion is or is not in Star Trek,
00:20:55.880then of course something as high stakes
00:20:58.100as our eternal souls is going to spark a bunch of debate.
00:21:21.240is how people will use the scripture or in this case the fandom or you know the original source
00:21:27.000material from the creator in this case gene roddenberry and not god um well you know uh to
00:21:33.400use that to protect and preserve other people because it was so cool seeing like you know
00:21:40.380trekkies and trekkers which are also trekkies but they use their own terminology which we respect
00:21:46.400Kind of defending me, basing this in like not only Star Trek The Next Generation, but Deep Space Nine, the movies, the animated series, all showing a basis for religion in Star Trek from episodes in the original series where there's a Christmas tree to episodes in Deep Space Nine where they totally get into religion to episodes in The Next Generation itself.
00:22:05.540And I just felt so warm in that. Like, it was like a virtual hug from all these different strangers who were like, we're not only going to protect her as a Muslim woman, but her ability to belong in this fandom. And that's the thing about being a girl or a woman on the Internet is that you constantly have to defend yourself. And it's a relief when other people step in to do it on your behalf.
00:22:27.000definitely that's something that I I love like one thing I love about being somebody who is like a
00:22:32.440woman online is people will ride for you people will fight for you they'll speak up for you they'll
00:22:37.420show they'll shake tables for you they'll make sure that your voice is included and amplified
00:22:41.320and in those moments just saying yes to that trust falling into your community that has your back
00:22:47.700those have been my favorite times online oh 100 like I think that when you go to comic con or you
00:22:54.660go to a convention or any space where you're taking virtual connections and putting it into
00:22:59.260the physical realm there's always that concern of am I going to be rejected and that really goes with
00:23:03.540anything you know just like the first day at school your first day on the job am I going to
00:23:07.800be rejected and then also being in a fandom space and a geek or a nerd space it's that constant
00:23:13.520feeling of do you even know the material well enough like oh oh you like like you know you like
00:23:21.100Beyonce name all of her freckles that type of thing you know and it's like come on now like we
00:23:26.260can all enjoy things at our different levels but just the whole feeling that we don't know our
00:23:31.120stuff enough as women and that's not just like I said it's not just with Star Trek like you know
00:23:35.940the assumption that I don't know every character off the top of my head even though I totally
00:23:39.600bombed at Star Trek trivia recently but it's also the implication that we as professionals as women
00:23:47.000in the world don't know what we're talking about. So that could be anything that you do. Like I was
00:23:51.580in the communications field when we worked at Planned Parenthood. And yeah, I would constantly
00:23:56.540have people telling me not their help, like, you know, thank goodness, but I'd have reporters
00:24:00.440constantly questioning how I was so young and doing what I was doing, how I was doing this and
00:24:04.420doing what I was doing. And so it's exhausting to then deal with that in a leisurely space,
00:24:08.620a recreational space. But it is that beautiful thing where people will just go for you. Like
00:24:13.240even when you're making an inside joke amongst friends and you're ragging on each other,
00:24:17.000on the internet and somebody who doesn't know
00:24:18.940that your friends are like, hey, leave Blair alone.
00:32:33.660I would like to claim that. But no, I was just correcting him. I forgot that we were on stage.
00:32:37.880It got to this point where I was so fed up with him dancing around it and and really trying to erase me and pull it, poke and prod at me.
00:32:45.580Then I just snapped back in a very eloquent way. And I said, well, actually, in addition to being a Muslim woman, I'm a black queer person.
00:32:52.820And then I immediately realized I came out on TV and I could feel my phone vibrating in my pocket.
00:32:59.780and I could, you know, my partner was actually on set with me because it was remote. So I've
00:33:04.640never breathed the same air as Tucker Carlson, Alhamdulillah, praise God. But my partner is like
00:33:09.840standing there looking at me and I can't totally look off camera because, you know, you got to
00:33:14.360hold a face and I have a pretty good poker face. But if you watch it with that knowledge, then it
00:33:18.900kind of becomes apparent that like, then when I stumbled over my words, it was because I had just
00:33:23.160come out on national TV. And so everything changed immediately. People who were homophobic,
00:33:29.320but in my life and then found out who I was or, you know, am removed themselves, which I consider
00:33:34.740to be a blessing, but it still was hard. Sarah Kate Ellis, the president and CEO of GLAAD reached
00:33:40.520out. And that was awesome because GLAAD basically scooped me up and they will do this anytime
00:33:46.560somebody comes out publicly, they make themselves a resource. They help you tell your story. If you
00:33:51.320want to do press, they'll make sure that you get connected. And I really just felt scooped up and
00:33:55.780embraced by the community. And it was just like a really beautiful thing. For a year after that,
00:34:00.580I felt like I was like the bell of the queer ball in the same way that I felt like that about Star0.81
00:34:04.160Trek. I was like, oh, look at this. You know, I feel popular. And I felt like that after I0.97
00:34:08.500converted to Islam as well. It was kind of this feeling of being new in a community and being
00:34:13.000exciting. And I also learned as I was dealing with, you know, experiencing those beautiful
00:34:19.820euphoric things, that privilege was showing up because I had the privilege of growing up in a
00:34:25.360context where I can be myself. Now, it's not to say that these things should be a privilege. You
00:34:30.760should be able to be yourself in your sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression,
00:34:35.840regardless of the religious or cultural context you come from. But that is not the case.
00:34:40.200Blair didn't want to be the Black queer Muslim. She didn't want her story to obscure the stories0.58
00:34:45.320of other marginalized people who didn't have the ability to come out like she did.
00:34:48.840So I wasn't realizing that, you know, people were calling me the queer Muslim, that people were looking at me as the queer Muslim.
00:34:58.060You know, I was becoming very tokenized.
00:35:00.380And so once I became awake to that, then I started to really immerse myself within other queer Muslim contexts and start to use my profile or increasingly large profile to help fundraise for organizations like Hedaya, LGBTQ, both in the UK and the US, Muslims for Progressive Values.
00:35:18.020and start to feel that this wasn't just me on, you know, like the Blair show, but a responsibility
00:35:22.640that I had to use this newly found visibility for the upliftment of others. Because as I was
00:35:30.940telling stories that are authentic to myself, and that's important to do, I wasn't realizing
00:35:35.020how it was harming other people. Like, you know, I was talking about how I've never second guessed
00:35:40.100myself for being queer in my whole life. But I'm not trying to tell that story in a way that makes
00:35:45.860others feel bad for going through a homophobic you know queer phobic existence that's not what
00:35:52.900I'm called to do that's not what my role should be and so now um and I don't think it's completely
00:35:58.660shifted I've always tried to be very responsible in how I tell my story but it's this increased
00:36:02.340responsibility so when I have young people reach out to me and they're like Blair how can I be out
00:36:06.680like you I first explain to them and remind them of the context of the world that we live in
00:36:11.900And that that's something you have to decide for yourself. And that whether you're out or whether you're not, you're valid. Your queerness is valid. And you're not lying to anyone just because you're unable to share your truth with people. Because it is incumbent on our society and on the people that love you to be able to make space for you. And if they don't do that, that's not your fault.
00:36:32.060And so I've really shifted from this idea of, you know, come out, have a rainbow flag, all types of beautiful things. Those are important, but that's not all queerness is. The people who are living closeted, the people who can't come out, those stories are important. And if I can help to shed light on those or ease the lives of those people, then I'm absolutely going to do that.
00:36:52.260So, you know, your books are really about archiving and preserving all of the ways that women and non-binary people and black women in particular, you know, the contributions that we really have made to history and society and to culture.
00:37:06.360Why is preserving that so important to you? And what can we do to make sure that these voices and these stories don't get overlooked or erased or lost?
00:37:13.740That is the biggest, most terrifying thing for me, the idea that we will only remember people through the lens of those who remember them, because, you know, we see it happen often, unfortunately, where we'll have someone who was being critical and calling, you know, Representative John Lewis, all types of, you know, besmirching names, then post, you know, a beautiful eulogy.0.97
00:37:38.800or you have, you know, idiots like Marco Rubio posting the incorrect Black person with him0.97
00:37:43.560while also claiming to honor his memory. If you can't even tell us apart, then no, I'm not going1.00
00:37:48.960to trust that you remember us for the work that we did. And we saw it when Elijah Cummings passed
00:37:54.400and people thought that John Lewis had passed. It's just so frustrating that we are constantly
00:37:58.220collapsed. So no, I do not trust the institutions that collapse us into one monolith or, you know,
00:38:05.080sanitize our legacies, like what we see with Dr. King. I do not trust those institutions to do us
00:38:10.560justice. So, you know, I had made a joke, I think probably a couple of years ago that I was going
00:38:15.120to write my own eulogy, but I also started to think about how that opportunity is denied to
00:38:19.440so many people. And that's constantly happening to us as black people, as black women, as, you know,
00:38:24.720black non-men, non-binary folks, et cetera. And so it's fighting against all of that and really
00:38:31.460trying to go back to the original text you know like I was able to pour over some of the um you
00:38:37.740know handwritten letters that my partner's grandmother had um that she corresponded with
00:38:44.080her husband and finding those firsthand accounts there's all types of things there's pop culture
00:38:49.100references there's mentions um of just so many minute yet infinitely important things that might0.98
00:38:56.620get glazed over because, you know, whatever white historian didn't give a shit or whatever, you0.76
00:39:02.840know, academic historian couldn't be bothered with because they, you know, viewed it as not0.98
00:39:08.980important. And because they didn't view it was important, it gets erased, which is terrifying
00:39:14.160because, you know, it is so we have so little power as a people, as black people in this country
00:39:20.340because of things like enslavement, reconstruction, the New Deal being a, you know, same old, same0.89
00:39:26.240old deal that really shafted black folks. I could go on and on, but just all of this inequality in
00:39:32.240the country. And not only do we not learn about those things, but that just makes our condition
00:39:37.860worse because we are blamed for what we have endured instead of praised for getting through
00:39:42.600it while also being held down by centuries and centuries of weight. But we then have to do this
00:39:50.460whole mind, mental gymnastics of figuring out why our conditions are so poor, while we also see,
00:39:57.600you know, model minorities and white folks uplifted as evidence that the system works,
00:40:02.000but we're just not trying hard enough instead of actually learning the context. So it's one of
00:40:06.780those things where it's a cycle. And the only way we can break it is by elevating the truth
00:40:11.860and by changing who is telling that truth, because people are going to tell the truth
00:40:18.420that's important to them and it's going to fall along biased lines especially if the people who
00:40:22.980are telling those historical truths are faceless and nameless more after this quick break
00:40:28.960the new red bull dragon berry and tropic berry energizers now at mcdonald's made with freeze
00:40:40.760dried fruit and an electric burst of flavor the all-new red bull energizers now at mcdonald's
00:40:48.400This product may not be right for you.
00:43:54.780Like, I think, you know, one of the most basic things of, you know, being a marginalized person or historically marginalized person is the ability to direct your own future and to have the resources and abilities to do that.
00:44:09.880Just basic things like having, you know, Gil Scott Heron says, like, you know, I just want a family and a wife and a food and the children and, you know, to food, some food to feed them every night.
00:44:19.100and it's just those basic things the fact that there's premiums on water and health care and
00:44:24.400you know the fact that black maternal mortality is egregious and it's not just because black
00:44:29.220women can't give birth it's because of the medical system and medical racism the fact that the0.81
00:44:34.280Tuskegee syphilis experiments went on well beyond there was a cure for syphilis and these people
00:44:38.500went untreated until they were called out in the New York Times in 1972 it's it's so many of those
00:44:44.480things. And, you know, it's nothing's going to, you know, let me not limit myself in my own
00:44:51.100imaginations. There could be something that changes everything overnight, but there's going
00:44:54.660to be so many things that need to change. And that the whole goal, I think, is that we can
00:44:58.760determine our own futures. Not that we have to, you know, endure racelessness or lose our identities,
00:45:03.900but that our identities and who we are doesn't, because of the systems we live in, inhibit us
00:45:09.460from living our full futures. It doesn't mean that I want to suddenly live my life as a white
00:45:13.480Christian woman. No, I like being who I am. I would just like to be able to be who I am
00:45:18.060without the consequences of oppressive systems and what those systems put onto me.
00:45:23.180What do you think of when you think of the future? Who does it include? Who feels safe there?
00:45:28.780Who's supported there? Star Trek helped a generation of activists like MLK and Blair
00:45:33.780imagine a future that included them and imagine a future where they could break out of the
00:45:39.540oppressive systems that keep us all from being free. And that is a future worth fighting for.
00:45:47.340Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at
00:45:51.500hello at tangody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangody.com.
00:45:56.560There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeart
00:46:00.280Radio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our
00:46:04.880producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
00:46:09.240Bridget Dodd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts
00:46:15.060from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:46:31.960This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.