00:03:38.580And she's a toxic corporate feminist1.00
00:03:40.840who's teaching all fellow girl bosses1.00
00:03:42.800how to use technology to steal data for fun,1.00
00:03:45.500profit, and hashtag feminism. It's part skewering, part send-up, and 100% hilarious.
00:03:59.300So I just finished watching Girl Whom Is Boss. It is hysterical. And I want to start with a
00:04:08.940question be honest before you did girl whom is boss did you go through a girl boss phase
00:04:15.600um probably i think it's like i've it's hard it's it's i kind of struggle with the term especially
00:04:25.480because i've like messed with it so heavily i mean i don't know i think you can describe a lot of um
00:04:33.500trying to make space for yourself where it doesn't exist as girl boss behavior.
00:04:40.560And then if you're a little disingenuous about it, that really turns up the girl boss factor.0.67
00:04:44.880I'm sure I've had girl boss moments over the years, not like ones that are, that almost kill
00:04:53.840people, but I'm sure that there's, I feel like, you know, we've all had our girl boss moments.
00:05:02.480And then you reflect on them and you're just like, hopefully they weren't, you know, publicly documented or anything.
00:05:08.100I don't know. I don't know. That's a good question. Have you?
00:05:11.500Oh, my God. I mean, I wasn't starting any genocides in Myanmar or anything, but I was definitely had a phase where I was kind of, I don't know.
00:05:20.340I read Sophia Amoroso's book Girlboss when it first came out and I definitely had this idea that it was – I had absorbed this message that it was important to be a specific kind of working woman, like a woman who wore blazers and like – I had this idea that you had to be a certain kind of woman to be successful professionally and that how I was just normally was not that.0.83
00:05:49.280And then I needed to, like, I don't know if I would call it a girl boss era, but I was definitely, like, had absorbed a lot of maybe not so helpful messages about feminism.0.98
00:06:01.380Yeah, I feel like they're, like, early, I don't know, like, when I was, like, exposed to, like, early, I guess, third wavy feminism, you're, it just felt like this illusion of control.
00:06:13.980Like if I act a certain way and I do certain things, then I will be an equal, which like ignores
00:06:22.580literally everything. And it didn't work. And so then I think I kind of exited that area and like
00:06:30.920read a book or something. I don't know.
00:06:35.400So if you had to define what a girl boss is to you, how would you define it?
00:06:39.960um i think that there's different levels of it i feel like it's uh as time goes on it's a blanket
00:06:48.860term that doesn't you know it can apply to a lot of different behaviors for some people uh it's
00:06:54.620literally just a woman who has power which i think is kind of a slippery slope that um you know uh1.00
00:07:00.680misogynists have co-opted it and refer to any behavior of any woman with any semblance of power1.00
00:07:06.860or influence to be girl bossery. I don't think that's the case. I, you know, I'm, I'm completely
00:07:13.920fine with women holding power. Like that's, that's great. I mean, in some cases, but girl1.00
00:07:20.300bossery is basically, I think like taking on the language of feminism to lift up yourself or a0.99
00:07:28.900harmful institution as an individual with like no collective interest in, in anyone but yourself
00:07:36.420And so I feel like good examples are your Elizabeth Holmeses, your Sheryl Sandbergs, who are like lifted as this example of like feminist wind.
00:07:48.800But then you look at what they're doing and it's, you know, upholding patriarchy and appeasing male billionaires.
00:08:00.680I was going to say I was going to add to your list of girl bosses or your shell gasoline sandwiches.1.00
00:08:06.420Yes, she's bad. She that that woman, especially like I just I don't know how she is still just like out and about. It's absurd.1.00
00:08:15.300So how did how did you come to be someone who was like really skewering this idea of the girl boss and what it's come to mean in our culture and in our landscape?
00:08:24.520Like, why was this something that you really wanted to poke fun at and build commentary around?
00:08:30.480At the time, there wasn't like a ton of discussion around it. And what like kind of
00:08:37.400originally piqued my interest in it was I was really, really into the Elizabeth Holmes story.
00:08:45.080And I feel like I'm wondering if you've had this experience too, where like, there would always
00:08:52.120just be like these lists that would be released kind of on like clickbaitier websites that are
00:08:59.020like women who are changing the podcast or like changing comedy and like sometimes you know like
00:09:09.200uh my podcast the Bechdel cast with Caitlin Durante like that we would appear on the same0.92
00:09:14.660list of people that I'm like now hold on I I cannot believe that we are doing the same thing
00:09:20.240and I'm I'm upset that we're on the same list because this person is clearly just selling
00:09:24.920something, you know, like, so it was, it was, uh, you know, kind of a selfish frustration I was
00:09:30.060having. Um, and, but realizing like, okay, we are using a lot of the same language, but it's to like
00:09:37.280attempt to, um, to accomplish something really different. And so I don't know. I, and then when
00:09:43.160I looked into the term more and then into tech specifically, um, I read a few different, uh,
00:09:50.380books to like get that show kind of off the ground and give it a level of specificity that
00:09:57.740I wanted it to have. And yeah, so I sort of just took it from there.
00:10:01.460Oh, my gosh. The thing that you just said, I mean, I don't want to this is I'll just say I
00:10:05.100completely identify with those lists of, you know, like, oh, women in podcasting, you should know
00:10:11.020where not to put the kind of podcast that you and I make on a pedestal, but like I'm not I'm not
00:10:16.540really selling anything. I'm not selling courses. I'm not selling coaching. I'm not selling like
00:10:20.360like a workshop. There's nothing that I'm trying to get you to buy. I'm trying to curate thoughtful
00:10:25.700conversations about culture and the way that gender shows up in culture. And I often, I get
00:10:30.860a little bit like, I'm like, oh, well, like no shade to them, but we're just doing very different
00:10:35.000things. And I would not call myself, like, I'm not offended when I wind up on those lists, but I'm
00:10:39.780like, oh, I feel like we're doing very different things. Like the show that I'm making is different
00:10:44.860than someone who is making a show that is like you know by my course that teaches you how to
00:10:53.180do whatever or like my coaching seminar that teaches you how to do whatever I just feel like
00:10:58.120it is an example of how like narrowly women are viewed where it's like you don't see lists like
00:11:06.040that for like men that are changing the podcasting game they're like put into genres and categories
00:11:12.040maybe because people are like listening to their work a little more carefully and taking it more
00:11:17.120seriously I don't know that's such a good point and I think you know you mentioned Elizabeth Holmes
00:11:21.660so I was obsessed with her story I watched every episode of the dropout and one of the things that
00:11:25.800I think that that her story really shows us and I think that your that your show really does a good
00:11:30.760job of like skewering this you know one of the things that that um uh gasoline sandwich talks1.00
00:11:38.280about is like, oh, I will teach you basic feminism and how to use it to commit crimes against the1.00
00:11:42.600poor. And I think there is so much truth to this where we have this tendency to, I don't know,0.90
00:11:48.140like put women and the work that we make into these specific categories and boxes that are
00:11:55.260not always helpful and not always thoughtful. Jamie and I are both captivated by Elizabeth
00:12:01.940Holmes. And if you watch the Hulu show, The Dropout, you'll recall that when investigators
00:12:06.720were closing in on her and her Theranos scam,0.97
00:12:10.100Elizabeth Holmes initiated a pretty brilliant PR push1.00
00:12:44.740I think this was a time when it was easy to look at a woman succeeding and say, that's feminism.0.98
00:12:49.760Whether what she was doing was a scam or actually hurting people.1.00
00:12:53.820On the dropout, when Elizabeth Holmes is like feeling the heat, she makes that campaign Iron Sisters that really highlights like, oh, you know,1.00
00:13:02.380we're women who are in technology and trying to shatter the glass ceiling as if just being a woman1.00
00:13:08.560in technology who has a job in tech is like in and of itself an act of feminism, in and of itself1.00
00:13:15.560an act of like solidarity or something like that. And the way that that is used to kind of like1.00
00:13:21.040not really look too deeply at the work that is actually being created. I don't know. I feel like
00:13:26.660your show does a really good job of demonstrating the ways that we have allowed I don't know
00:13:33.140conversations around gender to really keep from really looking too hard about what's at what's
00:13:38.440actually being done thank you oh that means a lot to me thanks yeah I don't know it's I yeah with
00:13:45.520the with the show it's like I don't know I was hoping that it would like resonate for people
00:13:52.880and try to like make light of how frustrating
00:13:58.880and kind of like predatory that trend feels
00:14:02.740or especially felt a couple of years ago
00:14:19.400But it just felt nice to like connect with audiences about how frustrating it was in the same way where I'm like, I've been feeling bad for the last two minutes being like, I didn't mean that like podcast women's podcasts that are trying to sell you lifestyle choices like are, you know, better or worse than than what you or I do.
00:14:39.180But then it's, I don't know, I feel like there's this weird pressure to support every woman doing everything, even though it's like, well, you know, wouldn't true equality mean you could kind of call bullshit on some behavior? I don't know. It's so it's so weird. I still like struggle with it.
00:14:58.480Yeah, it is a struggle. And I hear you. I don't want to make it seem like I'm like, I absolutely no shade to creators for whom that's their thing. But I do think like, I think we because we live in a capitalistic hellscape nightmare society, there is an inclination to any woman who is making money.
00:15:19.820there's an inclination to be like oh well that's feminism that's a win for feminism1.00
00:15:24.280even if they're making money in a way that is like predatory or harmful to others and I think0.88
00:15:29.220that we I'm glad that we're moving away from this but I think in like peak girl boss era
00:15:34.000feminism was sort of sold to us as like I'm allowed to do anything even if it hurts people
00:15:40.440and that's feminism and when you criticize me that's the opposite of feminism and I'm I guess
00:15:46.080I'm glad to see that we're sort of getting away from that because I think that was actually like
00:15:49.640not great for women a lot of things can be true where it's like i you know elizabeth holmes and
00:15:56.960cheryl sandberg absolutely used their status as feminist symbols to like shield themselves
00:16:03.160against valid criticism and also people were sexist towards them at different points in0.98
00:16:08.720their career and like both of those things are true and worthy of discussion um and it's you
00:16:17.640know, not fair that they experienced discrimination, but also like using that and using like having
00:16:26.980experienced something like that as a shield for discussing what you've done to harm other
00:16:32.980people with far less power than you do is like, how is that helping anything or moving
00:16:40.580anything forward. Like it doesn't. So Sheryl Sandberg is, you know, kind of like, well,
00:16:49.260you know, people were sexist to me early in my career and still sometimes now. So I don't need
00:16:55.380to talk about the genocide I had a part. You're like, that's just that's that's not right, babe.
00:17:10.580the new red bull dragon berry and tropic berry energizers now at mcdonald's made with freeze-dried
00:17:20.440fruit and an electric burst of flavor the all-new red bull energizers now at mcdonald's this product
00:17:28.640may not be right for you high in caffeine details at mcdonald's.ca and participating
00:17:31.620canadian restaurants excluding quebec run a business and not thinking about podcasting
00:17:35.960Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart. Streaming, radio and podcasting. Call 844-844-iHeart to get started. That's 844-844-iHeart.
00:18:03.620when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent
00:18:11.300my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart
00:18:17.340and these are the survivor files i just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying
00:18:24.980shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable
00:18:32.460I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.0.89
00:18:36.920I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:18:44.540They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:18:48.440But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:18:51.900They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:18:55.020Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:19:03.960If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:19:09.900This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:19:22.380I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:19:29.480I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed, so obsessed.
00:19:33.080From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:19:39.020It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:19:46.500Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:19:56.100Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:20:10.820The thing that really turned me on the concept of the girl boss was watching powerful women who were complicit in questionable companies or behavior enjoy this kind of unearned goodwill simply for being women.1.00
00:20:23.940Like for a long time, people wrote about Sheryl Sandberg, formerly of Facebook, in a way that suggested that she couldn't possibly have a hands-on role in some of the more evil things that Facebook was responsible for because of her gender.0.98
00:20:37.300And that completely flies in the face of reality, because Sandberg was personally responsible for some pretty messed up stuff at Facebook.
00:20:46.820She publicly defended and apologized for Facebook's role in facilitating a deadly genocide in Myanmar.
00:20:54.420But her bad behavior went beyond Facebook, including allegedly using her position at Meta to personally pressure a media outlet to kill a negative story about her then-boyfriend,
00:21:06.900Blizzard Activision CEO Bobby Kotick.0.99
00:21:28.560and was branded the face of corporate feminism for it,
00:21:31.620was doing so while personally hurting women.
00:21:34.480I think Sheryl Sandberg is such an interesting example because something that I think is particular to her and some of the other people that you think of as girl bosses is that, you know, when people would criticize Facebook and all the horrible things it was responsible for globally, you know, genocide, disrupting democracies, all of those things.
00:21:55.460I feel like Sheryl Sandberg was able to enjoy this unearned vibe where because she's a woman, certainly she must be the like mature adult in the room who is trying to rein in the likes of like Mark Zuckerberg's and the other tech bros.
00:22:12.460Like she's one of the good ones. She's trying her best. And I think that that I see that also with like Ivanka Trump, that certainly she must be the voice of reason who is trying to like rein in all the men around her who are causing harm.
00:22:25.500And I feel like they really used this unearned goodwill that came from being women working in situations surrounded by powerful men to excuse examination of a lot of their own behavior and things that they were, frankly, really complicit in.
00:22:42.120Like, I know for a fact that Sheryl Sandberg had a pretty big hand in a lot of like harmful stuff that Facebook did, harmful stuff that other tech companies did.
00:22:50.480Like when Sheryl Sandberg was in a relationship with Bobby Kotick, the CEO of Activision Games, and actively helped create, actively helped squash stories about his bad behavior, including like alleged sexual misconduct.
00:23:07.800And so it's like, that is you being complicit in behavior that hurts women. And so just kind of like letting that behavior go unchecked because you're a woman working in a male-dominated environment. And of course, you've experienced sexism, which is not okay. I think they were really savvy in using a lot of what you were just talking about to avoid critical looks at their own active bad behavior.
00:23:35.520Absolutely. That's I don't hear that example brought up very much. You're totally right. I kind of forget about that where it's like, you know, at that point, she's actively oppressing people and like women specifically about that, you know, and and her whole like her whole book, the whole idea was like, you know, lean in is just like, well, women aren't being paid like equally or treated well because they haven't asked, which is like.
00:24:05.520It's just so wild that that was a book that came out and was like widely accepted as the truth 10 years ago, where she was just like, yeah, it just like literally has not occurred to your boss to pay you equally.
00:24:18.020And you just need to like buy a blazer and march in there and say, guess what, buster?
00:24:23.780I talked to someone and you need to give me the right amount of money.
00:24:27.040Like, and that's not like completely useless advice, but I feel like girl boss mentality takes place in this void where systemic issues don't really exist or they do exist, but they are like, they can be surmounted by one person.0.76
00:24:50.260It's like, it's a nice, I get why it's a nice kind of thing to buy into.
00:24:56.700And I think for like, it sounds like whatever, like Sheryl Sandberg is like a privileged cis white woman.
00:25:04.160So it is going to be easier for her to surmount what's in front of her.
00:25:10.260But it just like is, I don't know, it's like this kind of like bummer fantasy that it feels very like late 2000s where you're like, yeah, I guess that that makes sense that everyone was so pumped about that.
00:25:21.720But, you know, now we can't now Roe v. Wade doesn't even exist. So, yeah, it's funny. It's wild. Yeah, it is wild. And it's like it's so throwbacky in a kind of way, because I just did a podcast episode about Lena Dunham.
00:25:38.340And I was like looking at like, what was the cultural and political and social attitude of like 2013, 2014? And it was a different time. Like I, and it's funny, I go back and look at my Facebook page back then. And like, I was definitely on some like Beyonce, Leslie Knope. Like, I really, my understanding of what being a feminist was, it has really evolved.
00:26:04.160And I look back then and I'm like, yeah, I thought it was like slay queen.
00:26:08.460Like, you know, like it wasn't very useful to me or anybody around me.
00:26:16.260And I understand why I gravitated toward it.
00:26:18.460And like, I get it the same way that like when someone is like, oh, just march in there and put on a blazer and tell your boss you want pay equality.
00:26:25.420Why that advice feels good, even if it's like, well, some things are institutional, some things are systemic.
00:26:30.880Like you can't lean in individually, you know, you can't lean in out of like something that's institutional.
00:26:37.140But yeah, I just think that we really culturally we're on a journey to figure out how feminism could be actually useful in our lives and like in what ways it maybe wouldn't be so useful.
00:26:50.000yeah yeah totally i mean gosh i i i feel like we we should there should be some sort of like
00:26:57.540um empathetic reckoning around like the feminism that existed 10 years ago because it's like
00:27:03.120embarrassing to look back on for me like i look at like i was like oh she was really trying
00:27:08.220she was really trying to figure stuff out uh it was basically a miss across the board it was like
00:27:13.980A lot of Leslie Knope, a lot of like, I don't know, like just that era where it definitely like had its part in moving us forward.
00:27:28.360But you look back on it, you're just like, man, what was what was I getting at there?
00:29:25.400things have really changed a lot and it's like we actively live in hell but I try to remember like
00:29:30.860we know how to talk to each other about living in hell now which is kind of um I don't know maybe
00:29:37.240that's like very little comfort but it is it does feel like an improvement it does and I was just
00:29:44.660thinking about this when I was prepping to speak to you today like I do feel like most people have
00:29:50.800like unless you're like deep in an MLM I feel like most people have been like okay maybe the
00:29:55.780girl boss era was not super helpful and we've kind of like left I feel like we've kind of moved
00:30:01.040a lot of us have moved beyond girl boss hustle grind culture and I think I see in a lot of the
00:30:06.540ways that like all these people that we think of as like OG girl bosses Sheryl Sandberg Elizabeth
00:30:12.120Holmes Sophia Amoroso they have all kind of I don't want to say like had their downfalls but
00:30:17.480they've they've they're no longer a prominent part of the public conversation anymore and i
00:30:23.740wonder like what do you think that means that so many of the og girl bosses are now kind of
00:30:28.920fading from notoriety and elizabeth holmes like might be going to jail so you know there's that
00:30:34.580i sometimes i forget she's not in jail which is um god the age of coachella liz is so fascinating
00:30:42.460uh i just what could i say um okay so i mean i don't know i i i honestly like i got so uh
00:30:54.220burnt out on girl boss culture doing that show that i i haven't really
00:31:00.180tracked very carefully like what the fallout of that is because i do like again doing that
00:31:07.320even doing that like dinky little show that I loved doing, but it's like, you know, I was
00:31:12.840performing that show in a storage unit in Scotland for a month. So, you know, you're like, it's like
00:31:18.320you're seeing a hundred people a night, but there were some people that would, you know, come up to
00:31:23.240me after that show who genuinely were like, you know, I really enjoyed it. And, but like their
00:31:29.240takeaway was like, women in power are disingenuous. And you're like, well, that is, I think the1.00
00:31:35.440little bit of danger that's introduced by the girl boss criticism and sort of that wave that
00:31:44.980I feel like is also dying now. It's just like the gigantic amount of media. And now it's like
00:31:50.260the girl boss is kind of a stock character that people are getting sick of because like you're
00:31:54.800saying, they're kind of fading from the public eye. But I think like, I think it's, it's good
00:32:02.960That like women who are, you know, taking on the language of feminists and the tools of oppressors, like that that is something that is like completely acceptable and normal to to be able to call out.0.57
00:32:20.480um and i think that that makes room for a lot more uh i mean i think that makes room and sets0.95
00:32:29.800a standard for just like leaders in general of like you can't just throw your uh like your1.00
00:32:38.100womanhood in my face and say that this she'll do from critique and that's like not okay and
00:32:42.640it's publicly kind of accepted that that's not okay and then the other side uh of that i feel
00:32:48.580like, is still, like, misogyny, still alive and well.
00:32:54.200I'm wondering, like, has the girl boss era and all the very valid critique that's been made of women like this,0.61
00:33:03.180have other women come into power in their stead?
00:33:07.400Have people been more, like, and has it been diverse at all?1.00
00:33:11.720Or is it just kind of another crop of white women who are like learning like, oh, I can't do that. I can't do that. I can't do that. But here's how I'm going to kind of innovate, leveraging the tools of oppressors against other people. I don't know. I don't feel optimistic about it, I guess.1.00
00:33:29.660Yeah, that's something that I really struggle with. It's like I definitely see the vibe of like people thinking that critiques of Girlboss means that like you're critiquing any woman in power that, oh, yeah, women who have power are disingenuous. They're awful. We should critique them. And that's not really what you're saying. And I do. I want to because I think it's so easy for critiques of women with power to just veer into being grounded in sexism and misogyny because like our society should not hold power.
00:33:59.660Exactly. Right. But like, I also think that like, you know, I think that like leaving behind this sort of disingenuous girl boss vibe, at least in my own life, like I think of myself as an entrepreneur, even though like I'm pretty shitty at it. But I think it maybe can open up room for.
00:34:18.140I mean, I'm trying my best, but I used to think that I had to be a certain kind of woman to be
00:34:26.980a successful entrepreneur. And now I'm realizing that all of those like very narrow, um, like
00:34:33.480ways of thinking were not serving me. And what I really need to be thinking about is like making
00:34:38.080room for leadership that feels good. It is aligned with who I am and my own values and like figuring
00:34:44.540out ways that I can lead in ways that make me feel good get the work done and uphold my values
00:34:51.440of how I want to treat people and that like it like having those be like very narrow narrowly
00:34:58.920defined by gender is not useful to me I don't really think it's useful to anybody I think that
00:35:03.960like we have the challenge is finding out like how we lead with our values and not how we lead
00:35:09.620along like very narrow buzzwords like girl boss right oh I love that yes I totally I totally agree
00:35:17.740and I hope that that is like I hope more I hope I just want more people to be like you Bridget I
00:35:24.640yeah I mean it's like yeah like leading with your values and like I mean because I don't know like
00:35:31.960I fuck up like no one is gonna be perfect 100% of the time which I feel like also was kind of a
00:35:38.960part of the girl boss ethos was like, there is no margin for error. But like, yeah, just taking a0.98
00:35:47.740look like an honest look at what you're doing and like, just gut checking yourself. I try to do that
00:35:54.660as much as possible where you're just like, okay, who is this for? Like, does this have a purpose?
00:36:01.120And sometimes if the answer is just like, this is just a goofy, weird thing I want to do. I'm like,
00:36:06.660okay, well, that's not hurting anyone. I'm going to do it. But yeah, just like gut checking the
00:36:12.260potential impact of stuff you do, which is like, I feel like that's more becoming
00:36:18.160like go-to question for not just people making stuff, but people who consume stuff as well,
00:36:26.400which I think is good. I like it. More after a quick break.
00:36:37.520The new Red Bull Dragonberry and Tropicberry Energizers, now at McDonald's.
00:36:43.840Made with freeze-dried fruit and an electric burst of flavor.
00:36:48.420The all-new Red Bull Energizers, now at McDonald's.
00:36:52.840This product may not be right for you.
00:37:52.740Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:37:56.840I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:38:01.620I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:38:09.240They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:38:13.140But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:38:16.600They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:38:20.220Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:38:28.000If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:38:34.900This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:38:47.060I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:38:54.200I'm going to have to look up this story.
00:43:51.360So I just need to, yeah, like gut checking with a real life community and just talking to each other outside of like algorithmically dictated conversations feels like what's been helpful for me.
00:44:08.420oh I feel the exact same way especially during COVID like lockdown I I can't tell you I would
00:44:16.480be ashamed if I if I could tabulate it all up I would be ashamed to tell you how much money I spent
00:44:20.580on like matching workout sets yoga stuff skincare green juices like I just really was like I
00:44:27.320understood that I was not happy and I mean who was happy and during you know when COVID first
00:44:32.480like who was happy during that time but I understood that I wasn't happy and I was
00:44:36.260trying to fill that void of unhappiness with more crap that had been targeted to me on Instagram
00:44:42.980and for a while it like really was like almost pathological like I would see a picture of a0.92
00:44:47.980woman you know doing her daily routine and it looks so great and it was like I have to buy
00:44:52.240everything that she has and maybe that will make me happy and it really was just like yeah I'm in
00:44:57.160I'm in lockdown COVID is happening I'm miserable like everybody else and I need to like nothing I
00:45:04.120can buy is going to fix that like I had to like like actively work to turn off whatever was in
00:45:10.100my brain that would make me hit buy when I saw a targeted you know algorithmically generated
00:45:15.540Instagram ad for something that was promising me this promise of having a happy fulfilled
00:45:21.340wholesome life that I was so yearning for absolutely and it's like and also it's like
00:45:28.540looking back on that, you're like, how lucky were we that we got to like sit at home and
00:45:34.960obsess about stuff like that? Because like everyone's experience of lockdown was so wildly
00:45:39.860different. And yeah, I, uh, it's, I don't know. I, I, it's a mind fuck. And I look back on like
00:45:53.340times like that and times like that, literally the end of the world, times like that, the plague,
00:45:58.540Um, and feel like it feels almost like a different person. And that was like us two years ago. Um, it's just, yeah, it's wild.
00:46:10.500It is wild. And I'm happy that we're able to have conversations about how we can get someplace more meaningful, meaningfully productive, I guess, and not just rely on algorithms and buying crap and buzzwords that will ultimately get us, I think, further away from where we want to be.
00:46:33.040Yeah. Yeah. And just like, I don't know. Like, yeah. And I think like just trying to have empathy for each other and like talking. I don't know. Like I have found a lot of, I guess, like just like a lot of comfort and it feels like a productive discussion.
00:46:58.420but also it's like not every discussion has to be productive. Sometimes we can just talk
00:47:02.040and like, that's great too. Um, but the like incredible pressure and stress there is right
00:47:09.180now to understand everything that's going on all the time. And I feel like it's like
00:47:13.920with, during the girl boss era, the pressure was very much like you need to, I'm kind of thinking
00:47:21.000of the like Gia Talentino essay about like optimizing yourself as a woman and becoming
00:47:27.140like the optimal woman and everything you do is productive and and serving this higher purpose of
00:47:34.120like moving forward in the world um and even as sort of that has become less of a popular mindset
00:47:43.420even though it's definitely not gone um because you know capitalism is still a thing um I feel
00:47:51.340like there's kind of a flip side of that where, you know, the, the world is like metaphorically
00:47:57.760and actually on fire and there's so many things going on. And there's like this pressure that is
00:48:04.200like reinforced by the internet to like know exactly what's going on, have a completely well
00:48:10.720articulated opinion about it, like a plan of action, like all of this stuff for like 500,
00:48:16.800like just they're it's impossible and I feel like being able to talk to people about the
00:48:22.940the existential stress of that without you know going towards like nihilism and not being like
00:48:29.180well I'm not going to do anything but just like talking about just being more comfortable I don't
00:48:33.760know I'm trying to be more comfortable saying like I don't know um or like I don't know much
00:48:41.080about that or am I making sense I don't know like oh absolutely like yeah giving yourself
00:48:46.460space to be like, I'm still working on that. Or like, we'll see. Or I'm not sure. Like not every
00:48:51.360kind of like we I do think that we have like the Internet has given us this pressure to be experts
00:48:55.900in everything and to have it all figured out. And we should really be pushing back by giving us
00:49:00.540giving ourselves space in grace to be, you know, not experts and not have it all figured out and
00:49:05.780not have a good action plan. And that's OK, too. Right. Or just like, yeah, with some stuff,
00:49:12.440it's like oh I don't I mean right now I'm thinking of the January 6th hearings because of when we're
00:49:17.060recording this but like I'm like I don't have a strong opinion on that because I haven't watched
00:49:21.860it yet I will get around I will do it uh there's there's just been other existentially looming
00:49:27.920issues on my mind uh haven't gotten to that one yet and um I don't I'm like I don't want to I don't
00:49:35.840feel embarrassed or ashamed that I didn't, you know, watch the, uh, five, like how many trials
00:49:43.100of the year have aired on television this year? Um, yeah, I guess, I don't know if that makes
00:49:50.820any sense, but like, yeah, I just, and, and I feel like usually when you're, you say something
00:49:57.320like that, there's, you know, a couple of people who will be like, oh, okay, cool. Me either.
00:50:02.840I, because it's impossible. It's like, I mean, for some people, I mean, I know that there's a
00:50:09.180select few that are just like extremely good at staying on top of stuff, but it's, it's impossible
00:50:14.100to be a person that, and be completely on top of everything all the time. It doesn't, you know,
00:50:22.020like the attempt I think is important and we should know as much as we can. But the whole
00:50:29.540idea of like curation and like not only do I need to know everything, but I need to be able to
00:50:34.240to speak to it in the most like it's like, OK, give yourself a little bit of space. Give yourself
00:50:40.040a little bit of time. The world will still be ending tomorrow. I have a good friend of mine
00:50:45.720who has done a lot of work in like active war zones. And one of the things that she says is
00:50:50.820to keep your peace, you have to limit the amount of news that you can see that you actively consume
00:53:03.680But the way it's presented is so, I don't know, it doesn't feel productive.
00:53:10.000And it, and it, like you're saying, like it keeps you up at night.
00:53:13.440And it feels bad. And, um, and you don't need to engage with the circus to understand what the result of the circus is. You know, I don't, I like, I'm not explaining it very well, but I'm trying to like develop a healthier attitude towards that and not feeling ashamed for not wanting to watch a four hour broadcast of, um, you know, MP4s of the most horrific shit ever that, yeah.
00:53:43.440can you tell us a bit more about lolita pod ghost church and bechdel cast yeah oh cool um yeah so i
00:53:53.080um have a couple different podcasts that i've worked on my weekly podcast um which bridget
00:53:59.500has been a guest on before is called the bechdel cast it's an uh intersectional feminist look at0.74
00:54:07.180everyone's favorite movies. That's with my friend Caitlin Durante on iHeartRadio. It's my favorite.0.99
00:54:13.460I really love doing it. And then I've also done a couple of solo podcasts that are more
00:54:19.220investigative and they're all like limited series. And those are the ones we were talking about were
00:54:26.400Lolita podcast, which is a 10 episode examination of the book Lolita and kind of how
00:54:32.520it was wildly taken out of context by the whole world. And then my most recent one is about
00:54:40.440American spiritualism, which is like a movement that started in the 1800s that encouraged people
00:54:47.920to talk to the dead via seances. And it's called Ghost Church. I went to this like community
00:54:54.120of elderly psychics in Florida to do some research and like looked into the history of the movement.