00:03:00.280How did you come to be someone who thought critically about how we are forming relationships?
00:03:06.040Well, you know, what they often say is true, which is that, you know, there's that phrase,
00:03:12.000I don't know if you've heard it, but it's like the healer's wound is often their gift.
00:03:16.600And I feel like that's, that's where it comes from. You know, I, there's no other way to sugarcoat it. It's not just like, I always thought connection was interesting. My relationships were always really easy and great. I never struggled ever. No, I was interested in it because, you know, I had a really rough time growing up.
00:03:34.520I was on my own for almost my entire life.
00:03:39.520And so, you know, I really longed for that sense of community and connection and this
00:03:44.660like sense of family and friendships and all these things that I was seeing on TV that
00:04:03.820And, you know, everybody has the best romantic partners. Of course, I wasn't thinking about that. Maybe at six. But still, you know, you're seeing everybody has it but you. And, you know, I looked at it, fortunately, from a place of curiosity as a as a kid, even where I was just like, hmm, how do other people's families work? How do marriages work? How do other people's friendships work?
00:04:29.200I just part of it, I think, was interested in just interested in how people connect, how they or they don't.
00:04:37.800And, you know, just wanting that very deeply.
00:04:40.320Also, I'm sure that's where that curiosity came from.
00:04:43.040So now I so much of this work that I do is because now that I'm an adult and now that I've written several books and comedy shows and all these things,
00:04:54.380I know I'm not the only one who has struggled like this and who has felt like nobody gets this.
00:05:00.240It must just be me struggle with that kind of shame that, oh, if I'm the only one struggling
00:05:06.660with this, I'm bad. I'm unworthy. All this stuff we do to ourselves that I've done to myself.
00:05:12.940So yeah, it really came from some real shit, essentially.0.99
00:05:19.260Yeah. I saw a picture on your Instagram that was like the balloons and it spelled out,0.99
00:05:23.620you've got a funny personality. Thanks. It's all the trauma. I think that's so spot on.
00:05:30.840So when you were young, maybe you felt like you didn't have the family connections that you saw
00:05:35.720on TV. As you got older, did you feel the same thing about kind of the friendship connections
00:05:40.620and the romantic connections that you were seeing kind of all around you that didn't match what you
00:05:45.580actually felt like you had in your life? Absolutely. For so long, I was just like,
00:05:50.640and I wanted it so deeply I was such a empathetic open person who just wanted these deep connections
00:05:59.660so much so you know it was very strange for me and especially too you know one of the things that
00:06:05.920I realized as well when I would go to school and I'd be like oh well I'm gonna like make my
00:06:10.460chosen family here yeah I've heard that's real and then you go there and you're like oh no
00:06:16.080everybody kind of needs you to act a certain way. There's all these unspoken ways that you're
00:06:21.960supposed to be a person. And I always felt like I was too, too much. I was like, I was a little
00:06:28.360too much. I felt things very deeply and I was very sensitive and very expressive. And
00:06:33.940those people are not usually super popular at that age. That's not, you know, you're supposed
00:06:42.020to be kind of cool and aloof and, you know, never struggle with mental health stuff. Like,
00:06:48.600that is not an age to be different or way too mature for your age. None of that stuff is
00:06:55.980appreciated. Yeah. I often think about how much time in my life I spent pretending to be like
00:07:03.300really chill or to even not have feelings, you know, both in my relationships with family and
00:07:10.020friends and then especially in romantic relationships when you're like in your 20s
00:07:13.740I don't know who out there is telling women like what men want is someone who is super aloof doesn't
00:07:20.720make attachments is chill and that's what you need to be even if everything inside of you is is
00:07:26.160screaming that how you're not chill and how you do want attachments and how you do care a lot
00:07:30.480about this and so you want it you have expectations you have needs heaven forbid you be a 20 year old
00:07:35.920woman looking for a man and have needs that you have articulated it's like the worst like you may
00:07:43.140as well climb into a grave and die yes no and it's it's so so i i talk about this in my first
00:07:49.500book was called how to be alone if you want to and even if you don't and explored so much of this
00:07:53.920um and there's a whole chapter where i literally go on a rant that is exactly in line with
00:07:58.680everything you're saying because it is so correct and the the thing that i talk about is how
00:08:03.220ridiculous that is for multiple reasons. One, because we should be allowed to be the totality
00:08:08.500of ourselves and be lovable. That's ridiculous. And we're told that that's true, but also be0.97
00:08:14.060smaller, be less, be less of you. But the other thing that's so crazy to me when I was writing
00:08:20.180that rant with just as much justified passion is I realized that we're showing women and people
00:08:29.580all these TV shows and movies where they're like swept away on this like romantic, super over the
00:08:36.060top, you know, vacations and flowers and courting. And yet we get to adulthood and so many men are
00:08:44.200just like, what? I'm not going to do that stuff. You're going to come to my roof and you're going
00:08:47.240to eat an old burrito and you're going to love it. And if you don't, I'm going to break up with
00:08:50.760you. Like what? No. I'm going to call you crazy and needy. I'm going to call you crazy and needy.
00:08:55.960sorry i've been raised to believe that there would be courting and love like this is something i have0.97
00:09:02.180been ranting about for so long because i was always a hopeless romantic i think most people
00:09:07.620are like even when you're cynical i think a lot of people are cynical because they were really
00:09:12.620romantic and they got disappointed a lot that's fair but who doesn't want love who doesn't want
00:09:19.020somebody to gush and be excited and try to make you feel really loved and special like
00:09:23.900it's so disgusting how many men have tried to make you feel like you're a demon for wanting
00:09:30.000basic care. How much unrealistic expectation do you think that we absorb from media and the
00:09:39.120internet and like, you know, all of that is out in the air? So much, so much. And that's, you know,
00:09:47.760that's so much of what, that's so much of what I talk about, you know, in the first book,
00:09:56.580that's what, that's so much of what I talk about when it comes to your family members
00:09:59.900and also what it means to be alone, what it means to be a woman who is alone. Because we, you know,
00:10:05.120we say two things. We're like, oh, she's so independent. And we're also like, and a loser.
00:10:08.980Like, it's like, we're saying all these things. You can't pretend we're not saying them. And then0.69
00:10:13.500And in the second book, you know, talking about friendship and all this stuff, so much of what I learned from friendship was from pop culture.
00:10:23.180I was told that, you know, we were all going to, me and my friends were all going to meet up every single day at the latest hot restaurant at noon and we never needed a calendar like on Sex and the City.
00:10:35.960I was told that, you know, we were all going to live together or at least really close by like in Living Single or New Girl.
00:10:42.800Like that doesn't happen. We live in different neighborhoods. It could take you an hour to get to your friends like there. And it's hard not to internalize that because you see that as a kid or as an adult. And you're like, I want that. I'm sure I'll get that soon. And then it doesn't happen like that. And you're like, what did I do wrong? And I don't think we did anything wrong. I really I really don't. I think, you know, there's always things you can do to improve that.
00:11:09.720But that's so much of, yeah, I've internalized a lot of shame about that stuff. And I would keep watching those shows. I still watch those shows. I love watching them because we love, I love watching Friends. I love not the show Friends, but like I love watching shows about Friends where they're, they love each other and they support each other.
00:11:29.320Like, who doesn't love that? But it can get really hard when you're like, it's great to watch this, but I want to live this.
00:11:36.460I want to experience it for real, not just through a TV.
00:11:42.240So you will find your friends is about making friends as an adult and how fraught, hard it can be and some ways to sort of break out of that.
00:11:49.600Why do you think it can be so hard to make adult friends?
00:11:52.420i think it's a lot of reasons you know one of them is that uh it can't be denied like our our
00:12:01.940our current state of capitalism sucks it really sucks we're being asked to work like 60 hours a
00:12:08.820week maybe more just to just to get by that's really leaving us very little time to take care0.88
00:12:15.960of ourselves to find community to, I mean, that's supposed to be, that's supposed to be the point of
00:12:22.820life. I really think the point of life is to have these communities to have, to feel like we have
00:12:28.240backup on backup. How can you do that when you're trying to work just to survive? I think that
00:12:34.100that can't be discounted. That is, that is part of it. And also so many of us, you know, don't
00:12:41.500live as close to each other as maybe like previous generations did where you all lived in, you know,
00:12:45.960maybe a little bit closer. I know I don't live that close to a lot of my friends. A lot of my
00:12:50.200friends are long distance. That's harder. And then, you know, the other thing is a lot of us
00:12:56.700have been hurt a lot by past friends. And so when we get older, it's like, you know, when you scraped
00:13:04.600your knee as a kid, it hurt, but like, not necessarily as much as it hurts when you get
00:13:08.900older. Cause like, I don't know, like your body's different, all these things. Like it just,
00:13:12.900that's feel like that stuff hurts so much more and that lasts so much longer. And I think that
00:13:16.180that's true for like relational pain. So like we've had so many cuts and scrapes, I guess,
00:13:24.220essentially in our, in our friendships as well, where a lot of our past friendships have left us
00:13:29.200feeling really scared to try again and really hurt. And understandably we're like, yeah,
00:13:36.100I don't want to do that again. Whereas I think when you're, you know, eight, 15, you're like,
00:13:41.420I'll try again sure it'll get better but then I don't know after 20 30 years of that you're like
00:13:46.460maybe I won't maybe this is you know and so it's I think a lot of it is our culture I think a lot
00:13:55.420of it is um and also a lot of it is our own pain and our own healing that we have to kind of do
00:14:00.800around that and rewire how we choose people what we allow it's so much stickier than most people
00:14:07.580talk about they're just like oh the social media and i'm like oh my god it can't it's not that easy
00:14:12.500it's not that simple let's take a quick break
00:14:17.620get bell pure fiber internet with crave netflix and disney plus from 94 a month price guaranteed
00:14:29.200for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit visit bell.ca for details
00:16:15.720My parents were what you might call keep-to-themselves types.
00:16:19.640We didn't have a house full of friends, and it just wasn't something I saw a lot of growing up.
00:16:24.500You could have acquaintances, sure, but we weren't really encouraged to really let people in.
00:16:29.640Literally and metaphorically, it's something that still shapes the way I understand friendship today as an adult.
00:16:36.400There are so many things that we have to unlearn, interrogate, baggage we have to put down that kind of keeps us from showing up the way that we want.
00:16:46.280I know for me, I kind of was one of those, like my parents, they were the kind of people who didn't have friends, they had family.
00:16:53.120And so we had family around a lot, but they didn't really have any friends.
00:16:56.300They didn't really have people over that we were not blood relatives.
00:16:58.860And so I grew up in a household where the norm was keeping to yourself. It was unusual to have non-blood people in your life popping over. And so that is the default that I always find myself going back to. And I have to really work to catch myself to unlearn it and say, you know, well, if somebody wants to come over, why is my default being like, no, they can't?1.00
00:17:22.240Or if somebody wants to get a drink, somebody I don't know very well, I just feel this, what feels familiar is saying no.
00:17:31.000And I have to really step out of myself to interrogate why that is and interrogate if that is getting me to the life that I actually want or a life that just feels like what I deserve.
00:17:41.740So that's, you know, I'm so glad that you said that because there's two things about that that are so important.
00:17:48.700One is we're only, for the most part, we're only going to have friendships that are what were modeled for us.
00:17:56.620So, you know, for many of us, the only friendships we saw were on TV, or we saw our parents' friendships if they had them or if they didn't, if they were good or if they were bad.
00:18:09.560If our parents had weird friendships or didn't have a lot of friends, yeah, that's going to feel harder for us to navigate that.
00:18:16.620You know, we talk about that a lot when it comes to romantic relationships where we're like, oh, you learn what you know about romantic relationships from watching your parents' relationship.
00:18:28.680And then the other thing about that is that, you know, it's it's that's another part of those like old wounds, like so much of the ways we interact with our friends are still reacting from that child's place of like those wounds that we have around our attachment styles and the way that we were able to attach to our parents and the way that our parents interacted with us.
00:18:54.260we're still doing that. I wish it wasn't true because it feels rude, but it's true. I feel
00:19:04.380like such a, I'm really mad. You mentioned earlier that it's very easy to be like, oh,
00:19:10.320the problem is social media. And I completely agree with you that it's so much more complicated
00:19:15.000than that. We're all living in, we're all exhausted. We're all burnt out. There's just
00:19:19.640so much going on. It's just so hard to be a fucking person these days. But do you think1.00
00:19:26.280that the internet and social media complicates, you know, the way that people are building
00:19:31.260relationships or not building relationships right now? I do. Absolutely. And so, you know,
00:19:36.640I only, I only referenced that and you probably already, you know, knew this, but because so often
00:19:42.680when we talk about people struggling with things in our, in our world, the people who are weighing
00:19:50.400in just make it like the simplest thing. They're not looking any deeper. And then it's just like,
00:19:54.660oh, just go do this. This is really easy. And I just hate that advice so much. Cause there's
00:19:59.400all these pieces you have to look at. Oh, I have to look at all of them. So yeah, I mean, you know,
00:20:05.160social media is a double-edged sword for friendships, I think, because on one hand,
00:20:09.040And you can make friendships of people who live far away who you might not have met, which is particularly vital for marginalized people who might not meet a lot of other people who are like them.
00:20:21.780I mean, that's a huge, huge thing. So I can't discount that. I think that's also why I hate when people are like social media is bad.
00:20:29.880I'm like, a lot of people don't know anyone like them in their area. This is a huge tool. You can't say that it's all bad.
00:20:36.180But on the other side of that, I know social media can also be this horrible source for comparison where we're constantly seeing people post their perfect, perfect friend group, having their perfect, perfect birthday parties and their perfect, perfect girls trips and all these things.
00:20:51.940And again, that shame comes back in and I'm like, they have it too.
00:21:03.240their friendships might be full of resentment and gossip and backbiting and unsaid things.
00:21:11.540It's very likely that they are. But if you're just scrolling through your phone, you're like,
00:21:15.880another reminder of what I want to have that I don't have and they have it. It exists, you know?
00:21:22.560Yeah, I think I hadn't really even thought about that, of the way that that comparison aspect of
00:21:28.520social media really can make you feel more dug into your shame because you feel like you're alone.
00:21:35.040You feel like everybody else is hanging out without me, having brunch or on a girl's trip to Rome or
00:21:41.600whatever. They're all on a boat and I'm in my apartment. And yeah, it really keeps us dug into
00:21:50.000the experience that we are the only people experiencing these painful feelings when everybody,
00:21:55.920it doesn't matter who you are. Everybody feels alone sometimes. Everybody feels disconnected
00:21:59.540and disengaged sometimes. It's true. It's true. And it's also like, you know, the people who don't
00:22:05.280have that aren't going to post that. Like, I'm not going to, you know, post a photo of me
00:22:11.840with, you know, the friends I wish I was hanging out with are just dead space. I'm like, me with
00:22:16.660my best friends on this boat. It's just like me alone. Like, like people who struggle with that
00:22:20.940aren't going to do that uh because there's no way to really effectively do that and also you know
00:22:26.160some people feel their own shame from not having that that they don't want to necessarily broadcast
00:22:29.720it but i think that's it too you know i always know uh that's the hardest thing right it's like
00:22:36.840the people who don't have something are not going to post that they don't have it but i think the
00:22:42.040other thing that's tough about it too is that so many people are posting it as sort of like a keeping
00:22:48.060up with the joneses thing where they're like i have to post that i have really great friends
00:22:52.420i have to do this and it's so funny because uh when i uh i did a tv appearance for this book and
00:23:01.620my book publisher was like was like hey like the uh this like morning show wants you to uh
00:23:10.140give us some photos of you and your friends so that we can put them up there and i was like
00:23:14.200fun fact I have no photos of me with my friends I don't even know where I would like I maybe have
00:23:20.740some like after comedy shows or something like that but when I'm hanging out with my friends
00:23:25.820we don't take photos I don't really do that and so some people like to do it I'm not saying that
00:23:31.440people who do that are it's like put upon but I don't think to do that when I'm hanging out
00:23:36.040with a group of people I'm like all right photo to prove this happened like I I don't but then
00:23:41.540when you don't have those photos and you don't have those posts you're like and I don't I don't
00:23:46.540know if that one is if other people feel like that but then you're like oh I don't have those
00:23:51.740photos are those friendships real and it's like of course they are you're just not do you know
00:23:56.520what I mean it's it's a it's absolutely yeah I know for and again I'm not knocking anybody who
00:24:02.400is someone who likes to document their yeah it's fine it's just not what I do and I'm like why do
00:24:07.300i why don't i do that and why don't i have those why don't i have proof why can't i show this proof
00:24:13.160that i have friends yeah if i'm having a truly good time with friends i'm probably my phone is
00:24:18.780probably deep in my bag and i'm not thinking about it like it's like to me that is the marker of me
00:24:24.140that i'm really engaged is that i i wasn't even thinking about we have to document this i'm just
00:24:29.460like fully present and so if there's ever an event where there's tons of photos taken by me
00:24:35.600that's probably a signal that I maybe wasn't as engaged or as present as I otherwise could have
00:24:40.620been yeah no absolutely but but again it's like that's why I love talking about things like this
00:24:47.980because I think there are a lot of us out there who feel like that but if nobody talks about it
00:24:53.160then you're just sitting there being like everyone's having fun with their friends
00:24:56.180everyone remembers to take photos everyone's having so much fun they can't help but take
00:25:00.160photos like you tell yourself these stories and you're like well I had a lot of fun and I was very
00:25:04.840present and I didn't take photos or I felt like it'd be awkward to take a photo or I don't know
00:25:10.320I overthought it in some way and then you're like was I not having enough fun to necessitate photos
00:25:15.600and why didn't like you again just this like trying to be this version of normal that doesn't
00:25:22.360really exist because you feel this way I feel this way other people feel this but we're still
00:25:26.860holding ourselves up to like what we see. Everyone feels lonely sometimes. And according
00:25:35.260to a 2020 survey from the insurance company Cigna, Gen Z is lonelier than older generations,
00:25:41.500with 73% of Gen Z respondents reporting that they feel alone either sometimes or always,
00:25:47.760the highest level of any generation. Now, it's easy to blame smartphones and social media,
00:25:53.480And that might be part of it. But Lane says it's more complicated than that.
00:25:58.460Your book is about making friends as an adult, but I often wonder the younger generation, like teenagers, how are they navigating this incredibly fraught dynamic that we navigate?
00:26:10.840I mean, I'll speak for myself. I navigate poorly as an adult.
00:26:13.700I wonder how the younger generation who has grown up, seeped in this, this has been their reality for most of their lives, how are they navigating it, do you think?
00:26:24.280I think it's one of those things, like, from people that I've talked to, even just, like, on this book tour, like, you know, having people's parents be like, hey, can you, I bought this book for my daughter or my son who's really struggling with their friendships right now.
00:26:40.860can you sign it to them? And I was like, Oh God, yes. Like, can I send a hug with this? Because I
00:26:45.360just, I think some things change and some things stay very much the same, you know, where it's
00:26:51.540like, they're still bullying. There's still, uh, people being too weird to have friends,
00:26:58.680too different to have friends. There's still, and then I think you have the added thing that I
00:27:04.140truly can't imagine, which is social media of that. I can't imagine being a teenager or
00:27:11.740around that age and feeling like I had to follow all the popular kids on social media. Like when
00:27:17.820I think about it, I'm just like, I would. And then like, if one of your friends unfollowed you,
00:27:21.920that feels bad now as an adult. But at 15, I think I would have lost it. We had our own
00:27:29.540versions of this stuff but I think it's so additive and also you know filters like I there's
00:27:38.080so many things that I just feel like can warp you know and there's it's I'm not it's not being like
00:27:44.520oh you're grasping at straws to say that filters are really affecting children like you know we
00:27:50.300know that there are like more and more like kids like people under 18 are like getting plastic
00:27:57.100surgery and stuff. There's no way that's not because they're like, Oh, I look better with
00:28:00.880this filter. Like, you know, there's just, I feel like it's got, it's gotta be really rough, but
00:28:06.720you know, I, I don't, I still feel like I understand it. Like as much as it's easy to
00:28:13.280be like, Oh, it's probably so different from when we were kids. I don't know. I I've, I've talked
00:28:18.840to teenagers and, and kids and stuff about their friendships and things like that. And a lot of
00:28:25.320the stuff, that's not really what they necessarily bring up the most. I think it's a lot of the stuff
00:28:31.980just stays the same where it's like, you know, their friends were their friends and then they
00:28:36.820suddenly all turned on them and started bullying them. And I'm like, oh yeah, I've been through
00:28:40.380that. Like, you know, a lot of the stuff stays the same. You wish it didn't, you wish it would
00:28:47.200get better, but I don't know. So I feel like, yeah, if that makes sense, like I feel like a
00:28:53.180lot of ways it's the same stuff yeah that happened it speaks back to your point about how
00:28:58.540it's easy to cling to the simplistic answer of like it's social media that's what's doing it
00:31:07.120I was thinking back to a memory when I was in junior high at camp.
00:31:12.400But our version of following the popular people on social media was after somebody had a wild weekend out, they would bring like a stack of physical photos of like all the memories.
00:31:26.180And I remember being at a lunch table and there was a girl doing that and she has like a stack of photos.
00:31:30.580And all of her friends were sitting around her looking through these photos, laughing, thinking, aha, so great.
00:31:36.640And she said to me, if I wanted everybody to see, I would be passing them around.
00:31:41.060And so like it like that, I think kids are probably having that same vibe on social media and it's probably feels inflamed or heightened, but it's not new.
00:31:53.380You know, everybody's experienced that. It's just like social media makes you so much more hyper aware of it.
00:31:58.160Yes, that's that's really all it is. You can see more tangible stuff because, you know, when I was a kid and someone was like not talking to me or giving me the cold shoulder or whatever, like I didn't need to see that they'd like unfollowed me or whatever.
00:32:10.240it was like oh you could feel that they'd unfollow you in real life yeah you're like oh you've this
00:32:16.060is wild cool cool cool cool like the IRL unfollow yeah like you knew you knew when you'd been
00:32:23.220unfollowed and you're like what did I and you can't you want to ask what you did but you can't
00:32:27.660and it's like you know when you look at it that way you're like you know stuff on at a basic human
00:32:33.720level stuff hasn't changed that much and you know it's all the same it's all the same stuff that it
00:32:39.380was where it's like those are people who have their own pain and they're trying to have power
00:32:43.100over somebody else and you know what whatever it is and it's boringly human yeah you know you touch
00:32:51.800on this in the book but one of the things that I find so interesting is the ways that the way that
00:32:57.340we build friendships is really gendered and so I think you know women are sort of told you can make
00:33:03.700friends but this is just like a placeholder you'll meet then you'll meet your romantic partner y'all
00:33:09.160we'll get married and that's the real prize you know in what ways do you think that the way the
00:33:13.400way that like we that different genders are told to think about friendships in their life how do
00:33:20.880you see this as all as all a gendered thing that's playing out yeah i mean it's just it's just the
00:33:25.720way that we're we're socialized you know um i know there are so many men out there who
00:33:33.980men men when it comes to their friendships like they're they're told that like it can't be that
00:33:41.120emotional it has to just be like watching the game together and and all of that stuff and this
00:33:46.160like you know you don't hug and you don't cry and you don't we don't talk about our feelings
00:33:52.060oh like we don't do any of that stuff and so where what are men doing with those feelings
00:33:59.560because men have feelings, all genders experience emotion. Like it's just so, so harmful, so0.70
00:34:06.360unnecessary, you know? And so then a lot of those men are going and they're, they're trying to do
00:34:16.220that with their female partners because that's the only, they know women understand that, but
00:34:22.340that's a lot of pressure to put on the women in your life. And then they don't really know how to
00:34:26.880be friends with a woman because they're told that women are not your friends. They are supposed to0.99
00:34:31.680be sex objects in this way or romantic objects, all these things. Women can't be people. So1.00
00:34:38.100there's all these conflicting messages that they're given. And I really empathize with it
00:34:43.860because I empathize with the men who are doing their best to unlearn that shit because it's not0.99
00:34:51.260it's not anyone's fault that these ideas have been placed in the world, but it is our0.99
00:34:56.640responsibility to unlearn them. That's just the way it is. So, you know, I have, I have a lot of
00:35:02.280empathy for men who are like, this is a really lonely existence. I want to have close friendships.
00:35:08.700I want to have friendships like women are allowed to have friendships. And it's like, yeah, this,
00:35:13.440this kind of thinking limits everybody. And then, you know, women again, yeah, exactly. Are told the
00:35:21.120the same the same thing in a different way where it's like oh yeah you can be like close and
00:35:26.340intimate but like really your partner should be your whole world and like he should get which0.67
00:35:33.280if you think about what those two genders are being told so like we're supposed to save all0.98
00:35:38.260our energy for our male partner who doesn't know how to talk about his feelings so like what what
00:35:43.560what is this who doesn't know how to have a friendship outside of chest bumps like and you
00:35:50.620Like, what? It's just all, it's not working for us. And that's why it was important for me to talk
00:35:58.080about things like this in the book, because to take it from this personal thing that we're making
00:36:06.680bad choices, this personal shame. And it's like, no, no, we have a bunch of things constructed
00:36:11.740here that are really flawed and difficult to navigate. It makes sense that people are
00:36:17.500struggling in my other life I do a lot of work around combating extremism and how people kind
00:36:23.460of like fall down dangerous rabbit holes online and like that is definitely if you're an adult
00:36:28.540like it is your responsibility to not to like not do that but time and time again the research
00:36:32.920indicates that loneliness when you combine men who are or even anybody really but people who
00:36:38.880are lonely with the internet people who don't have strong connections in their lives that is
00:36:46.040like a recipe for people falling down dangerous ideologies online and so all of this is important
00:36:52.020not just for the people that you you know want to have fulfilling meaningful relationships and
00:36:56.740full lives but it's important to all of us like it makes us less safe as a culture when people are
00:37:03.560social when men especially are socialized to not have those connections because the research is
00:37:08.800very clear that it opens up a pathway to much more dangerous and potentially harmful violent
00:37:14.540ways of thinking and being in the world. Yes, no, absolutely. I mean, I think
00:37:18.900that's why, like, we have to stop looking at it like, you know, it's everyone for themselves. I
00:37:29.200mean, and I, that was something that had frustrated me my whole life, because I think I just,
00:37:35.320I, as this, like, very soft-hearted little kid, I was like, but aren't we, like, all supposed to,
00:37:40.080like, help each other? And, like, I look back at that, I'm like, oh, you're in for a rough road.
00:37:44.540And then you're thinking like that at like seven. That's not how people are thinking. But there is this idea of like, that's your business and this is my business. And well, I don't know if he doesn't, you know, have any help. That's not my problem. And it's like, if we had a sense of community, no one would be left behind. No one would be ostracized. No one would be like, you're different from me. You're bad. We wouldn't see each other as a competition.
00:38:10.760We would see each other as, you know, it, it sounds kind of hippie, but does it sound kind of, you know, hippies had a lot of good points.
00:38:19.480I, you know, I mean, it's like, it's, I'm not trying to sound too like woo, but I think it's, it's really true.
00:38:28.340I think if we had more compassion and less limits and we know why those limits were put there, they were put there.
00:38:36.240I think that's something I have to remind myself of.
00:38:38.900I'm like, we know that, you know, all of these like, well, I'm different from this person and this person's different and they're bad.
00:38:47.100And but like all this stuff was not created by us and was created, you know, to sell us stuff, to make people mad, to distract people from other issues.
00:38:56.180It's like, you know, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole either.
00:38:59.700but it's, it's something that helps me when I think about it. Cause I'm just like, how did we
00:39:04.220get these ideas that like each other are the problem? You know what I mean? And it's like
00:39:11.100the, the men you're talking about who go down this extremist place. I'm like,
00:39:16.280what if you could be angry at the systems that created this? How much more productive would
00:39:22.880that be? And how much more community, positive community would you have? Like the men who are
00:39:29.100like women are the problem. I hate this blah, blah, blah. And it's like, Oh my God. If you1.00
00:39:33.960could see that, like the ways that you have been socialized to think that men have to be this way,0.95
00:39:39.640women have to be like that. That's the problem. You're putting it on the wrong person, man. You
00:39:45.240know, it's, it's, it's, it's tough. Cause we can't, you know, we can only do so much work on that.
00:39:51.260And again, that really is when it's like, hopefully everybody's doing that own work and
00:39:57.380and gets to that realization as soon as they can. Cause like more divisiveness, more hatred,
00:40:03.020more rage, more violence. It's never going to bring you more joy. It's never going to bring you
00:40:08.280more community, not in a, not in a good way.
00:40:15.140So what tips do you have for folks listening on how to make friends as an adult?
00:40:20.240Yeah. So one of the things that I talk a lot about in the book is things like attachment styles and love languages, which we talk so much about in romantic relationships, but we don't talk about it when it comes to our friendships.
00:40:37.480Because, again, we have this idea that your romantic relationships should take work and your friendship should just be easy and have no communication.0.92
00:40:46.000and that is garbage. So really looking at the ways that you give and receive love and the ways0.70
00:40:53.640that your friends give and receive love, really just trying to understand people a little bit
00:40:59.980more because your friendships are relationships. I know it's really easy to want that friend who
00:41:10.540just gets you and you never have to explain it. I've wanted that my whole life where I'm like,
00:41:15.740I want everyone to know what I need and I never want to talk about it ever but you know part of
00:41:21.640growth is realizing like I could keep doing that and expecting that or like what are the ways I
00:41:28.740need to communicate a little bit more what are the ways I need to say even if it sucks even if
00:41:33.580I've done it before and it didn't go well I think a lot of it is trying things in new ways trying to
00:41:41.780relate to people in new ways, trying to relate to the people, current people in your life in new
00:41:46.020ways, trying to, you know, maybe meet different kinds of people than the ones that going back to
00:41:53.140what we were talking about earlier. So many of us have this set pattern where we're like, oh,
00:41:58.340I'm always this friend. And like, you know, I'm always the one who gives more. I'm always the one
00:42:03.700who like takes care of them and they don't take care of me. And then we repeat these patterns
00:42:08.500to like prove it's true it's not conscious I've done it it's it's not coming from a place of like0.99
00:42:14.620oh you stupid unhealed people do this no no no it's like it's extremely because that's how people1.00
00:42:19.540talk about it you know like a lot of experts are like well if you're an idiot then you're doing1.00
00:42:23.540this and I'm like be quiet Beth I don't want to hear it but like it's just so it lacks any empathy0.99
00:42:29.560like you know everything I'm talking about is something I've like lived and struggled with
00:42:35.160and had to learn because, because I've done it. So it's, you know, um, but we have to take a look
00:42:42.840at that and say, oh, okay, maybe there's more work that I have to do, uh, on myself. Maybe
00:42:50.100there's more boundaries that I have to set up. So I think that, you know, obviously I could give
00:42:55.860the advice, uh, like, like people love to give the throwaway advice of like, go to a bar,
00:43:01.660talk to somebody. I don't think the, the reason I don't give that advice other than I just think
00:43:07.480it's oversimplified and kind of worthless is that, is that I don't think people's problem
00:43:14.660is meeting people. I don't think that's it. I don't think the hard thing about making friends
00:43:19.480is that you're not meeting someone. I think the hard thing often comes with
00:43:23.920finding people who are compatible. You want to be their friend. Maybe they don't want to be yours,
00:43:29.960whatever, having better dynamics in that friendship, having like communicating better,
00:43:38.440having somebody who can meet your needs. I think it's all these things and then growing and
00:43:42.900changing with that friend, knowing how to let it go when it happens. So I think it really is just
00:43:49.200a lot of work that you're doing on yourself. And then a lot of work you're doing with that other
00:43:52.960person, not necessarily bad work, but I just, again, I don't think it stops as like, oh, you
00:43:59.540need to meet people it's like well yes but what do you do when you meet people how do you change
00:44:04.840what you do when you meet people because we all have our own little patterns that like we can
00:44:08.780meet someone and then we still do the little thing that we do with them that might not be good for us
00:44:13.180you know yeah it really comes back to like being curious and introspective about your patterns how
00:44:20.440you show up if that's working for you I think yes I think that's so much of it and it's like
00:44:25.340it sounds like we we want the easy answer I think that that is why so many of those experts who are
00:44:33.940like oh I'll tell you right now go to a bar go to this specific bar that's why people love stuff
00:44:39.420like that because people so many people have been conditioned because I don't blame them
00:44:44.820have been conditioned to want the like cheapest simplest answer because we want something that's
00:44:50.940like, you know, we want, we want to be able to say I'm lonely. I want to be able to take something
00:44:55.960right now. That'll make me stop being lonely. We want something that's easy and you know,
00:45:00.820that's it. And so, but that's not true. That's not real. And the real truth of it is that it's
00:45:08.880messier than that. It's more personal than that. And it's harder than that, but I'd rather do
00:45:15.300the real true healing around that to have better friendships than to do kind of like
00:45:22.220a band-aid that covers up the wound and you just have to keep getting more band-aids
00:45:26.360yeah speaking of wounds i have to ask you about tinder live yes that was my first foray into your
00:45:34.340work uh nice i am obsessed with it um yeah thanks so here's my question for people who are on the
00:45:42.680apps. Like Tinder Live, it really shows you how horrible online dating can be. I read your piece
00:45:52.380about going on Tinder in San Francisco, especially. I was like, oh, I lived there for a while. I know
00:45:57.560exactly that. You know, like I own a tech company, but I also go hiking. Yes. I'm unique. Yes. I'm
00:46:04.980not like the other men. Yeah. I'm out in nature, honey. Yeah. Yeah. What advice do you have for
00:46:12.600someone who just like cannot swipe past another bad tinder or hinge profile they're just0.93
00:46:18.580fucking done i know somebody out there is like that is me what should that person do0.90
00:46:24.040you don't have to you don't have to i mean i think that's that's really so much of it like0.98
00:46:31.060you know i love i love doing tinder live because it makes people feel less alone in that um it it
00:46:40.700it makes people realize they're not the only one getting the bad messages are not the only one
00:46:44.320doing these things. But, uh, if someone's not getting something out of that, they're allowed
00:46:49.340to stop. Like there's this idea that we have and, and this is put on everybody, but it's put on
00:46:55.760women, especially where like, you have to keep trying. If you stop, if you stop trying, you're1.00
00:47:02.040never going to find, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? And it's like, there's so many of us
00:47:07.920out there. I've been there many times myself. Um, where, you know, I mean, it's fun. It's funny
00:47:14.720to say, but like, I'm only on those apps for work. I'm only on those apps for Tinder live. I don't,
00:47:20.600you know, I'm like, I do my comedy show. That's it. Um, but it is funny. Cause like when I go on
00:47:26.000tour with Tinder live, I'll be in like a coffee shop in like Chicago and I'm like swiping ferociously.
00:47:30.840And I feel like there's probably someone behind me being like, wow, she's just like really horny
00:47:35.560this morning. And I'm like, no, I'm here. This is for work. I'm in it, but like, how would I even
00:47:40.020explain what that work is with that? Like, I don't even know, but you know, it's okay to be like,
00:47:46.480maybe this isn't for me. This doesn't feel good. I'm going to stop doing it. I can, it's,
00:47:52.120it sounds simple and it doesn't mean it is simple to do, but yeah, I don't, I don't agree with that.
00:48:00.400like hustle harder mindset of like, I don't know, just do it twice as much. It's like,
00:48:05.600what? No, it's someone doesn't feel good. So you should stop. You're allowed. I think
00:48:12.620knowing you're allowed to stop and it doesn't mean you're going to definitely die alone now
00:48:19.200because you stopped doing something that didn't feel good for you. I think that's