There Are No Girls on the Internet - Rerun： The moral panic behind “groomers” is an attack on marginalized people

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00:00:50.020 I survived nine months in captivity,

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00:01:42.040 You can't pinpoint any violent act to anything said online,

00:01:47.220 but the overall raising of the temperature is what allowed it to happen in the first place.

00:01:55.820 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:02:07.760 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:02:13.280 This weekend, a 22-year-old man entered Club Q, an LGBTQ nightclub in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

00:02:20.660 He opened fire, shooting and killing five people and injuring at least 19 others.

00:02:25.820 He was subdued by Richard M. Fierro, a military veteran who was at the nightclub with his family,

00:02:31.120 who tackled the gunman, grabbed the gun, and hit him with it.

00:02:34.640 While a trans woman, who apparently has been misidentified as a drag performer, stomped on him with her high heels.

00:02:41.620 This tragic attack on the LGBTQ community is just another escalation of the increasing climate of threats and violence against queer people,

00:02:50.100 gay bars, and drag events all over the country.

00:02:52.820 Because we are in the middle of a full-blown dangerous moral panic around LGBTQ identity. 0.83

00:02:59.260 Drag performers, queer people, and educators are being smeared as pedophiles 0.85

00:03:03.580 or being accused of grooming kids for sexual abuse. 0.92

00:03:07.460 And this comes as trans and queer people were already under attack.

00:03:11.640 According to NBC, state lawmakers have proposed a record 238 bills

00:03:16.120 that would limit the rights of LGBTQ Americans this year, or more than three per day.

00:03:21.340 with about half of those bills targeting trans folks specifically.

00:03:25.820 What's empowering these bills?

00:03:27.620 In part, hateful online rhetoric, fear-mongering,

00:03:31.000 and baseless conspiracy theories about trans and queer people.

00:03:34.680 And when we first spoke back in May, months before the Club Q shooting,

00:03:39.300 Alejandra Caraballo told me that we all need to be paying attention

00:03:42.360 because she says that the kind of escalation in violence

00:03:45.880 like we saw at Club Q was only a matter of time.

00:03:49.180 My name is Alejandra Caraballo.

00:03:51.340 I am a civil rights attorney and currently teaching at Harvard Law School's Cyber Law Clinic as a clinical instructor.

00:04:00.060 Alejandra has spent her entire life building power for and with marginalized communities online and off.

00:04:05.560 As we talked, she sat in her office at Harvard, flanked by posters of historic power builders like Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson.

00:04:14.980 So you are one of the first trans women of color to ever teach at Harvard.

00:04:20.940 I guess my first question is, what has that been like for you?

00:04:24.000 And how did you get here?

00:04:25.100 How did you get to be doing what you're doing?

00:04:27.800 Yeah, I mean, it's been surreal.

00:04:29.440 I mean, I've been very fortunate.

00:04:30.760 I know you said one of, like, I was very fortunate to start at the same time as my dear friend, Anya Marino, who's working at the LGBTQ Advocacy Clinic.

00:04:40.900 We started within like a day of each other at the clinic.

00:04:44.880 So we kind of both started at the same time.

00:04:46.600 were both the first trans women of color to teach at the clinic or at Harvard Law. I mean,

00:04:52.260 it's been quite an interesting experience. I've never been so close to these kind of centers of

00:04:58.140 power in this way. I grew up in a very middle-class Florida suburb. Harvard just seemed

00:05:05.380 like this pipe dream out there. And even then, I went to Brooklyn Law School and I did three years

00:05:11.460 of direct legal work doing immigration, family law with trans Latinx immigrants, and then two

00:05:18.420 years of movement impact litigation at the Transgender Legal Defense Education Fund. And then

00:05:23.340 I've always been a bit of a tech nerd. So, you know, this kind of was a nice way to kind of

00:05:29.220 give myself a break. I kind of really burned myself out on movement work after five years,

00:05:34.520 and especially during the Trump administration, it was just, it was a lot. So it's been great.

00:05:39.900 my students are my favorite thing about teaching here. Like they, like, I think one of the things

00:05:46.800 I always say is that, you know, law students come to school wide-eyed with a lot of hope and, and

00:05:54.160 enthusiasm for the law. And a lot of people, once they leave law school and actually practice law,

00:05:59.160 become very jaded and cynical. And like, it's hard. I fought it, but I am very, many ways I've

00:06:05.120 become very jaded and cynical about the law and when I see like the next generation of lawyers

00:06:10.240 and I get to work with them on on projects and cases and really see like how they develop

00:06:15.820 throughout the semester in terms of their legal writing skills and everything else like and just

00:06:20.560 see like the passion and enthusiasm they have for the for the work and also just like the diverse

00:06:25.680 backgrounds of the students that I'm teaching all of those things like I just it fills me with hope

00:06:32.360 and like this you know right now like to recording like I've been doing final evaluations with

00:06:38.620 students and this is like one of my favorite times because it's it's really an opportunity

00:06:42.900 not just for me to help students improve but like to help build them up because I have a lot of

00:06:46.540 students that come from disadvantaged backgrounds that are not the typical you know what you think

00:06:52.600 of when do you think of Harvard Law and they are rock stars and as like someone here who's like

00:06:58.660 not typically represented, I feel like really realize the power of visibility, right? Like

00:07:03.500 just even being visible here means like, you know, students that come and tell me things that like

00:07:08.260 they probably can't tell to like their 70 something year old cis white male professor,

00:07:13.320 right? That just doesn't get it. And so that is just really huge, like that visibility. And I

00:07:19.020 think also like, I take it to the next step. Like I have my Sonia poster behind me or my Sonia

00:07:25.880 portrait. I also have, you know, just like drew a Puerto Rican flag, Judge Jackson and Marcia

00:07:32.940 and Sylvia Rivera. And then, of course, Pedro Alviso Campos. I call it like my wall of power.

00:07:39.380 Yes. I love it. I would be so beyond stoked if I came to college or came to law school and

00:07:47.200 you were my professor and I was in your office looking at your wall of power. That's incredible.

00:07:53.400 Yeah, because you don't see these faces typically in the law school, right?

00:07:58.300 Like you see a lot of older white folks, like, you know, famous alumni, stuff like that. 0.61

00:08:04.220 It's rare that you see like people of color and like in that way.

00:08:09.140 And it's like I can point out we have two Supreme Court justices, one who's an alumni of the school and Pedro Alviso Campos, who a lot of people don't know about.

00:08:16.100 But he was the Puerto Rican independence leader, supposed to be the valedictorian of the class of 1921 of Harvard Law School as an Afro-Latinx Borinquenio.

00:08:27.320 And, you know, Harvard couldn't at that time like stand having an Afro-Latinx man be the valedictorian.

00:08:35.980 So they withheld his grades to keep up to delay him graduating so he wouldn't be valedictorian.

00:08:40.320 But, you know, I have him here and I am working to make sure he is more visible on this campus.

00:08:47.340 Yes. Carrying that legacy. I love it.

00:08:50.520 I guess one of my one of the questions I'm so interested to get into is I know it has been a hard time for trans folks.

00:09:01.260 And I think something about the Elon Musk news was that much harder on a time that's already been very difficult.

00:09:08.680 So I want to like acknowledge that, you know, what is Twitter, the experience of being on

00:09:13.240 Twitter or on social media been like for you as a trans woman?

00:09:16.400 Yeah, I mean, it's been, it's been something else, right?

00:09:20.000 So I've been on Twitter for like 12-ish years, but I didn't really use it.

00:09:26.140 I mostly just kind of had a Twitter to just check every once in a while, whatever was

00:09:30.680 trending.

00:09:31.320 And when I started running for city council, which I ultimately did not win, obviously,

00:09:37.500 But, you know, I started heavily using Twitter as an organizing tool and as an ability to connect with others in a political way.

00:09:46.860 And I really started building up a following.

00:09:48.720 Like two years ago, I had like 100 followers on Twitter and now I'm like at 16,000.

00:09:56.380 So it's like it's like it's ballooned.

00:09:58.300 And that experience changes, right?

00:10:00.060 When you're an anonymous account with 100 people and you just kind of interact like nobody really cares, right?

00:10:06.260 But the minute you start getting a following and you start getting a lot of engagement and stuff like that, like the experience changes, you really start getting singled out for people that if you like, like, for instance, on Monday, like I criticized Elon Musk buying Twitter and called it like called into question, like a lot of the things that he does are that come off as very like white supremacist, like him flashing the OK symbol on SNL.

00:10:35.840 him having like a segregated workplace at tesla his parents having wealth invested in an emerald

00:10:43.740 mine in apartheid era south africa i mean i'm always just skeptical of any wealthy white person

00:10:49.380 from south africa like like major red flag major red flag yeah like yeah you know the family's

00:10:58.140 wealth is built on colonialism like explicitly um but uh you know things like that and then

00:11:05.120 you know, just a history of, of transphobic jokes and statements on Twitter. And, you know,

00:11:11.120 I think like calling it a question that, and my God, I got like hate mail on my personal working

00:11:15.640 email, which like that almost never happens. And like, I had to go private because like I was

00:11:21.440 getting not just bombarded because like I have my notifications filtered. So like, if they don't

00:11:27.480 follow me, I don't, I don't see it, you know? So like people can go at me all they want and

00:11:32.900 you know what ratio whatever the hell like i i don't care like i don't see it that way but what

00:11:38.060 ends up happening is i do have my dms open so i can usually tell when something's going sideways

00:11:43.120 when i start getting a ton of actual like hate dms um and those get filtered as well right like um

00:11:49.560 so it's it's just like message requests so i don't even see them um unless i like specifically go like

00:11:55.080 it doesn't even send me a notification and just like it's just when i'm checking my messages so

00:11:59.320 I might check them like once a day or something like that. Um, and yeah, and like flooded with

00:12:05.060 messages on, on Monday and it was just like a lot and it was overwhelming. And I was like, you know,

00:12:09.380 I'm taking this private. And the only other time I've gotten that dogpiled was when I criticized

00:12:17.820 Joe Rogan. There's something about these like white men that just like drives others to just

00:12:27.840 go to all these lengths to defend them. I don't understand. They don't need to be defended. 0.86

00:12:34.860 Elon Musk is the richest man in the world with 85 million Twitter followers. Joe Rogan has the

00:12:39.100 most listened to podcast in the world at like $200 million. He's going to be fine. He doesn't

00:12:45.340 need a personal army to defend him. Yes. Have you ever seen that meme where it's like the Simpsons

00:12:52.540 meme where it's like um elon musk you know valid criticism and like internet weirdos diving in front

00:12:59.480 of the bullet to save him from any kind of valid criticism i feel like joe rogan elon musk they're

00:13:04.640 two they're two men who really i feel like people must search on twitter for their names to be like

00:13:11.200 yeah like someone criticizing him not on my watch and if you notice a lot of people who start

00:13:17.340 criticizing elon musk or even joe rogan like what they'll do is they'll misspell his name

00:13:21.580 Like I've seen, like on my subsequent posts,

00:13:24.180 I was like using the name Mellon Husk. 1.00

00:13:27.280 Because like, but they literally, that's what they do. 0.99

00:13:31.140 Like how much of a loser do you have to be 0.98

00:13:33.620 to sit there and search the name Elon Musk 0.99

00:13:35.840 so that when you see negative criticism,

00:13:38.200 you dogpile that person and you like attack them. 0.99

00:13:41.260 Like, it's just, it's just like ridiculous. 0.99

00:13:45.920 Like get a life, get a job, do something. 0.86

00:13:48.840 Definitely sounds like the behavior of someone

00:13:50.780 who calls themselves an advocate of free speech.

00:13:53.300 So for sure.

00:13:58.880 Let's take a quick break.

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00:16:01.300 radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts see you between the pages when i was 14

00:16:08.900 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent my life

00:16:15.340 exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these

00:16:21.680 are the survivor files i just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't

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00:17:07.720 And we're back.

00:17:15.700 We've seen increasing attacks on LGBTQ folks using the label Groomer.

00:17:21.560 According to Research for Media Matters, on Twitter, the number of tweets with Groomer-related language increased by over 60% in April,

00:17:29.180 with over 870,000 tweets and retweets, compared to nearly 545,000 tweets in March.

00:17:36.620 Now, grooming is a serious thing.

00:17:39.700 It's used to describe the actions an adult takes to build a relationship with a child

00:17:43.700 that makes that child more vulnerable to sexual abuse.

00:17:46.700 And today, both online and off, extremists imply that LGBTQ folks

00:17:51.680 or those who affirm LGBTQ youth are actually pedophiles who present a dangerous threat to children.

00:17:58.860 It's a resurgence of a well-worn tactic of extremists.

00:18:02.940 In the 70s, anti-gay activist Anita Bryant ran the Save Our Children campaign,

00:18:07.720 aimed at repealing a local Florida ordinance prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

00:18:12.900 And a key component of her campaign was suggesting that gay teachers were a threat to the safety of kids.

00:18:18.500 And it's not just fringe extremists.

00:18:20.860 Mainstream Republicans have passed legislation attacking marginalized identities,

00:18:24.120 like laws criminalizing trans youth or Florida's Don't Say Gay bill,

00:18:28.200 that puts vague restrictions on talking about sexual orientation in classrooms.

00:18:32.640 Florida Governor Ron DeSantis' press secretary, Christina Pushaw,

00:18:36.260 described the legislation as, quote, the anti-grooming bill,

00:18:40.060 tweeting that if you did not support the don't say gay bill,

00:18:42.880 quote, then you're probably a groomer or at least don't denounce the grooming of four to eight-year-old children. 0.94

00:18:48.580 Honestly, it is not difficult to see the influence of the QAnon conspiracy in her comments. 0.74

00:18:52.980 And it should not be surprising to find that this moral panic 0.73

00:18:56.100 has accompanied a wave of violent in-real-life threats against LGBTQ people.

00:19:00.900 It's already been kind of toxic. I think there's definitely been a vibe shift since February that I've noticed. And it's been unlike anything I've ever seen, the kinds of attacks on LGBTQ people, specifically labeling LGBT people as groomers and pedophiles.

00:19:20.520 Like, I never thought that would, like, happen in that way. 0.76

00:19:24.700 And it's just absolutely gross.

00:19:27.020 Like, it's one of the grossest things I've ever seen.

00:19:30.020 And so we saw, like, in February, like, libs of TikTok, James Lindsay, some of these, like, right-wing trolls, Jack Posobiec, and eventually got all the way up, you know.

00:19:39.080 And then what really changed was DeSantis' press secretary, Christina Poushaw, labeling the Don't Say Gay bill as an anti-grooming bill.

00:19:48.440 um and like that was the first time we had like a government official put the imprimatur of like

00:19:53.780 you know this is a government message that like we're you know if you oppose don't say gay you're

00:19:59.620 a groomer kind of thing and um it was terrifying like like i think for for pretty much all the

00:20:06.560 trans people i know on twitter like it's like blaring red siren like this is getting bad like

00:20:12.880 this is going to lead to people getting killed. And we've already seen someone walk into a bar 0.73

00:20:18.600 in Brooklyn with kerosene and set in a gay bar and set it on fire. Just like two days ago,

00:20:25.720 someone threw bricks through a pride center in Burlington, Vermont. And this comes about two

00:20:31.460 weeks after, I believe her name was Feather Fern, was murdered in Vermont, like a trans woman. 0.96

00:20:40.280 And the person tried to initiate like the trans panic defense. And so like we've already seen that. And like the attacks on like this gay couple on an Amtrak train in California being called pedophiles and child stealers because they adopted two kids. Like it's just horrific stuff. 0.98

00:20:59.000 And this is directly as a result of the toxic online discourse. And because of this, like, Twitter has generally tried to do the right thing. But anytime is specifically around trans people, anytime they try to make it better for trans people, the like right wing ecosphere just goes into overdrive.

00:21:22.300 Like, they just, like, it is like, they feel like it's their constitutional right to go on private companies' websites to harass trans people.

00:21:31.640 It's really not surprising to me that Twitter has emerged as this new battleground for the so-called culture wars.

00:21:37.620 Traditionally, marginalized people use Twitter to carve out power and a voice for ourselves.

00:21:42.560 We built movements like Me Too and Black Lives Matter on Twitter.

00:21:46.260 And I think the idea of marginalized people building power on Twitter

00:21:49.500 is incredibly threatening to people who have traditionally had all the power.

00:21:53.700 For instance, Elon Musk said that he was inspired to buy Twitter

00:21:57.100 after the right-wing parody site The Babylon Bee

00:21:59.960 was suspended for refusing to delete a transphobic tweet

00:22:03.220 misgendering Admiral Rachel Levine,

00:22:05.900 who was a trans woman and the assistant secretary for health

00:22:09.380 for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

00:22:12.020 And, like, that's what we saw.

00:22:14.540 like we saw what was reported, right? The Babylon Bee being suspended for its joke about Dr. Levine

00:22:19.920 was supposedly one of the last straws for Elon Musk. And so like, they push the envelope,

00:22:25.760 they push this hatred. And then when a site tries to step in and say like, this is leading to

00:22:31.060 violence, this is causing harm, they, you know, cry free speech or whatnot. But what it really is,

00:22:36.220 is they want the freedom to bully, right? Like, because if you want to say like, I hate trans 0.96

00:22:41.740 people. I don't believe they should exist. You can say that to the cows come home, right? Like you 1.00

00:22:45.980 could just go on a street corner and yell it. That is free speech. The government cannot stop you

00:22:51.520 from saying that. You can scream it out of a corner. You can write manifestos. You can like

00:22:57.280 do it. Write a novel how much you hate trans people. Knock yourself out, right? But a social 1.00

00:23:03.380 media company is different. They are not under those obligations and people fundamentally do

00:23:08.100 not understand that. And the problem is, is like, if you make a social media company hostile to

00:23:12.760 people, you're not going to stay around very long. Like we've seen what sites with no moderation

00:23:19.600 are like 4chan, 8chan, 8kun, you know, all these sites, like they don't have advertisers. No like

00:23:28.960 typical person goes on there because it is filled with racial slurs, anti-Semitic slurs, 0.91

00:23:35.600 homophobic slurs like just the worst of the worst like it is literally filled with actual nazis

00:23:40.680 like posting nazi memes so like we know what that looks like and so at some end like twitter has to

00:23:50.080 engage in moderation and it really what it is is like they're trying to use trans people as a wedge

00:23:55.900 to basically destroy a social media site for daring to protect trans people the way that i

00:24:03.600 see it is that in the last five, 10 years or whatever, social media platforms, I would say

00:24:09.720 all of them, but really Twitter is like a special platform. People who have been traditionally

00:24:14.680 marginalized have been able to have a little bit more of a voice and have a little bit more

00:24:21.200 power that institutionally we didn't really get to have. And I think that that's maybe one of the

00:24:27.020 reasons why we're seeing Twitter be this big battlefield right now, because I think people

00:24:32.480 who are threatened by that, people who are threatened when they see, you know, people

00:24:36.900 who have traditionally had a harder time making their voices heard, get those platforms,

00:24:42.220 get those voices.

00:24:42.980 And even if a platform like Twitter does the bare minimum to make their platform a little

00:24:48.960 bit hospitable to these voices, that feels very threatening or, yeah, that feels very

00:24:53.400 threatening and therefore they have to sort of go out of their way to remind folks, no,

00:24:59.260 this platform needs to be hostile toward people who are traditionally marginalized.

00:25:03.740 I want that status quo back where I can say whatever and they can't say anything.

00:25:08.200 Right, right. And like, it's like the classic saying, right?

00:25:12.500 When all you're accustomed to is privilege, equality feels like oppression.

00:25:17.460 And that's very much what it is.

00:25:20.960 Libs of TikTok is a Twitter account run by Shia Raychek with over 1.2 million followers

00:25:26.340 that basically exist to spread lies and fear about teachers grooming children. 0.77

00:25:31.340 The account has called public schools, quote,

00:25:33.800 government-run indoctrination camps for the LGBTQ,

00:25:37.160 spread outlandish lies about LGBTQ youth and teachers,

00:25:40.760 while also singling them out for harassment and abuse.

00:25:44.180 It's also become an influential piece of right-wing online infrastructure.

00:25:48.480 Florida Governor Ron DeSantis' press secretary, Christina Pushaw,

00:25:51.360 said the account truly opened her eyes on the state of LGBTQ education in schools.

00:25:56.340 I think one of the most illustrative issues of this was TikTok. 1.00

00:26:00.180 What it is, it's all about fundamentally power.

00:26:04.080 And it's power to make sure that the in-group maintains power in society and the out-group is minimized. 0.94

00:26:13.460 And in this case, the in-group is mostly white conservatives, mostly white supremacists and others and fascists.

00:26:22.920 And then what you have is the out group is like queer, LGBTQ people, people of color, women, others, and like they want to marginalize.

00:26:30.660 And so what ends up happening is, is like you have TikTok, right?

00:26:34.240 So like TikTok, or not TikTok, libs of TikTok is specifically retweeting videos of LGBTQ teachers that likely have like maybe 100 or 1,000 views on TikTok.

00:26:49.280 These are relatively obscure people that are just posting their thoughts online.

00:26:55.720 They rip those videos and they post them online with very leading titles.

00:27:00.800 Some of them, like I've watched the videos.

00:27:03.540 It's just like a teacher talking about the students asking them who their husband is.

00:27:08.140 And they like came out to the class and they were like, if anyone comes out and if any

00:27:14.100 gay teacher comes out, they should be fired on the spot.

00:27:16.420 Like that's literally what lives of TikTok said. 0.94

00:27:18.060 And so then they come out and they're like, you know, they're just exposing liberals for what they say and they're just showing up and, you know, that's what they do. And I'm like, meanwhile, like they're sending a torrent of harassment towards these people that are relatively anonymous and additionally towards school districts.

00:27:39.040 They're creating a whole panic by like pushing this groomer libel.

00:27:44.620 And then essentially, you know, they want the power to do that.

00:27:49.100 And then the minute that anybody steps up and says, yeah, this is who that person is, Shia Raychick, like they forgot to use a pseudonym when they registered their domain name.

00:27:59.480 And now that's public information.

00:28:02.500 Like they went into overdrive to attack Taylor Lorenz at the Washington Post, who didn't even expose it, by the way.

00:28:07.880 internet researchers exposed it and they were so upset that this person was like doxed or you know

00:28:16.820 quote unquote or that they were exposed and that like it was so vicious and she's exposed to

00:28:22.460 harassment all this stuff and it's like it's literally what she does she's she sends harassment

00:28:28.900 and death like not her directly but it's like what's called stochastic terrorism right 0.55

00:28:34.120 she knows that by putting somebody on blast on her twitter what will happen and the fact that

00:28:40.600 she was scared of people knowing who she was and the fact that they acted like it was some big

00:28:44.820 thing to expose that like like grow up grow up like you have an account with a million followers

00:28:51.980 now you are getting interviewed by tucker carlson in national media and you have an expectation of

00:28:58.660 privacy, I'm sorry, you do not. And, you know, and again, don't use your actual name to register

00:29:06.680 a domain, like just don't do it. So, but again, like going back to the dynamic, like this is about

00:29:14.140 preserving power, right? Like that's what lives with TikTok does, right? It creates a chilling

00:29:19.580 effect. How many queer or LGBTQ teachers on TikTok are not going to talk on TikTok or post a video 0.97

00:29:27.880 for fear that they will be, their content ripped and then they will be fired or have a mob at a

00:29:36.440 school board meeting talking about them, asking for them to be fired. Teachers making, or parents

00:29:43.120 making accusations against them, like all these things just for existing as a queer person, right?

00:29:47.940 Like it is a moral panic that is what was going on right now. I'm so glad that you brought this

00:29:53.600 up because this is something that I talk about a lot on the show and just in general. So

00:29:57.700 Elon Musk and people like him, they love talking about free speech. And from the way they talk,

00:30:02.620 it would seem as though the people who are likely facing consequence for the things they say are

00:30:07.160 white, conservative, or libertarian men who just want to say slurs or whatever.

00:30:11.680 But the reality is that it's marginalized people who are much more likely to face consequences for

00:30:16.020 the things they say, especially online. And so I guess my question is, how can we... And I think

00:30:21.400 that just completely gets missed whenever we're having a conversation about speech and free speech

00:30:27.000 for who, how can we change that conversation, change that focus so that it is about the

00:30:32.340 reality that it's queer folks, trans folks, sex workers, activists who are either pushed

00:30:37.080 out of spaces or silenced or, you know, de-platformed for what they say?

00:30:41.960 Like, why do you think that when we talk, but when people who seem so obsessed with

00:30:47.800 talking about speech, why do you feel like the marginalized people who we know are the

00:30:53.120 people who are facing consequences for what they say, like, why do they get, why are they able to

00:30:58.000 get left out so often? Yeah. It's mainly because, you know, again, it's insidious what these people

00:31:05.660 do, right? So it again boils down to the difference between equality and equity, right? So if everyone

00:31:11.820 has access on Twitter, that's equality. That's how everyone's equal here on the site. But that

00:31:17.400 doesn't necessarily mean that there's equity, right? Like there's all kinds of things that go

00:31:21.420 into a social media site, like even having time to be able to post on Twitter, that's a privilege

00:31:27.720 because a lot of people do not, like there are people working two jobs, three jobs, like doing

00:31:32.260 stuff, like they don't have time to pay attention on Twitter. They're raising kids, like they're

00:31:35.980 doing all this stuff. So like that already, like you're already creating all these things. But

00:31:39.600 you know, one of the things I always love to point out with like the difference between equity and

00:31:43.320 quality is like, let's say you had three children that were different ages and sizes. One is like

00:31:48.920 three foot, one is four foot, one is five foot. And there is a four foot fence covering while

00:31:55.200 they're trying to watch a baseball game. Well, you could say, I'm going to give them all one

00:32:00.000 of a one foot like block for them to stand on. The third child is still not going to be able to see

00:32:05.820 because, but that's equality, right? They all got the same boost. And the first kid who didn't even

00:32:11.920 need it in the first place is now even higher up for a better view. But what equity is, is

00:32:16.600 understanding the nature of the situation and giving that first kid a two foot block,

00:32:21.060 the middle kid a foot block, and then just leaving it. And they are there, you know,

00:32:24.520 that is equity. Right. And so understanding that. And so there's an idea here that we, you know,

00:32:29.360 we've been, been discussing within the clinic, you know, within our course here and our seminar,

00:32:34.980 like talking about algorithmic reparations, like the designs of these sites, because people act

00:32:42.080 that these things are designed neutrally, they're not. There's always conscious bias

00:32:47.460 that goes into the design of these websites. And so if you're not actively countering it,

00:32:52.920 you are permitting it. And so that's one of the aspects of the design of sites like Twitter that

00:32:59.440 needs to be accounted for. And I think Twitter hasn't necessarily gone that way. They're just

00:33:04.300 trying to plug holes in everything that shows up, right? But they're at least attempting. I think

00:33:08.680 they have like, like they're trying. So that, that concept of equity, right. That's what they're

00:33:15.560 demonizing. They're demonizing diversity, equity, inclusion. They're acting like it's this horrible

00:33:22.580 thing. They're banning, you know, any talk about critical race theory, which like, I'm like, if you

00:33:28.720 want to take critical race theory, you have to be like a 2L or 3L here at Harvard Law School. Like

00:33:32.380 we're not teaching it to kindergartners. Like that is not what's happening, but that doesn't

00:33:37.880 matter right like all they have to do is scream it and that's all of a sudden that's reality and 0.76

00:33:42.740 like what is even more disturbing beyond the the critical race there which is like just a wholesale

00:33:48.200 denial of this country's history it's it's all to protect white innocence right at the end of

00:33:54.860 the day like that's what it's about is protecting white innocence more after a quick break

00:34:07.880 Hey, I'm Ruby Carr, the host of the podcast, Encore.

00:34:13.920 Check out our brand new episodes featuring music from the show

00:34:17.440 that everyone is reheating as we speak, Heated Rivalry.

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00:34:25.260 I'll tell you the stories of Feist, My Moon, My Man,

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00:34:34.880 Stream Encore on iHeartRadio, Crave, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:35:04.880 podcasting. Call 844-844-IHEART to get started. That's 844-844-IHEART. If your bookshelf and

00:35:12.340 your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society,

00:35:19.440 the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture

00:35:24.080 obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level

00:35:28.380 of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet,

00:35:33.740 and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:35:36.760 I'm going to have to look up this story.

00:35:38.660 I'm obsessed, so obsessed.

00:35:40.340 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators

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00:36:09.280 See you between the pages.

00:36:11.340 When I was 14 years old,

00:36:13.660 I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:36:17.180 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring

00:36:19.880 how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:36:23.500 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:36:27.100 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear

00:36:31.980 saying shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable

00:36:39.100 i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was

00:36:46.940 someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled

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00:37:05.780 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:37:17.180 Let's get right back into it. Just in case you needed any more proof that we're in the middle

00:37:21.680 of a full-blown moral panic, last month Florida's education department accused publishers of trying

00:37:26.780 to indoctrinate kids with math textbooks

00:37:29.520 by trying to sneak in lessons

00:37:31.700 grounded in emotional and social learning,

00:37:33.900 which is basically a classroom methodology

00:37:35.520 that helps kids understand their emotions around subjects

00:37:38.000 and demonstrate empathy for others.

00:37:40.380 For example, if a math book said

00:37:42.180 that sometimes math problems can look scary,

00:37:44.480 or if a book said it's good to work together

00:37:46.520 to solve problems,

00:37:47.620 those would be examples of social and emotional learning.

00:37:50.320 The Washington Post reports

00:37:51.520 that Florida's education department

00:37:52.940 said that it rejected 41% of books,

00:37:55.340 the most ever in Florida's history, even though at least 24 of those books scored high marks from

00:38:00.600 the official state reviewers for conforming to Florida's standards, but were rejected anyway.

00:38:05.800 And this crackdown happens all while people like University of Virginia recent grad Emma Camp,

00:38:11.280 who published a recent New York Times op-ed about how conservative speech is being suppressed on

00:38:15.260 college campuses, are uplifted as the face of attacks on free speech. What's more devious is

00:38:21.300 like this attack on emotional and social learning like this is what we saw in florida with like 40

00:38:25.420 books math books banned for the crime of putting we it's sometimes better to learn together listen

00:38:33.420 to other people hear what they have to say and it's like are you trying to raise a country of

00:38:40.180 sociopaths like the i mean what is the goal of that like literally these people would like

00:38:48.020 attack Mr. Rogers today. Yeah. I saw one of my favorite books growing up was Babies Everywhere.

00:38:56.600 And it's like essentially a picture book about how there's babies everywhere. And it was banned

00:39:01.840 in some state. I can't remember where. And the only like offending image, I use that in scare

00:39:08.120 quotes, was one of the babies behind the baby was two men. And one of the men has his hand on the

00:39:15.920 the other shoulder and so it's like i was reading this interview with the author and she was like

00:39:19.780 we don't explicitly say that they're married or that they have this child it's like they could

00:39:24.040 be brothers they could be friends like we don't even say anything but under these under in this

00:39:29.220 new climate just the suggestion like oh two men standing next to each other no can't have that

00:39:35.740 in schools can't have anybody seeing that yeah i mean that that's that's part of it right like

00:39:41.980 it's erasing any sense of queerness. And this is what is frustrating about mainstream coverage

00:39:47.660 around this whole debate, right? We constantly see op-ed after op-ed about, I don't feel like

00:39:55.360 I can say what I want to say in classrooms and what they mean in college classrooms or college

00:40:02.360 courses or college campuses. I feel like if I say something, my classmates might ostracize me.

00:40:11.120 And I'm like, okay, that's real life.

00:40:15.900 Like, I'm sorry, that's a new concept.

00:40:18.080 You say something unpopular and people will not like it. 0.99

00:40:21.580 I can't go into my office and be like, all y'all smell like shit without my coworkers 1.00

00:40:29.900 getting upset. 1.00

00:40:30.680 What's the deal?

00:40:31.500 It's like, yeah, it's called, it's always been that way.

00:40:34.260 You, there are consequences of the things that you say.

00:40:36.480 People can ostracize you when they don't like what you have to say.

00:40:38.560 And I guess I feel like in comparison to the way that we're seeing this very clear crackdown on marginalized voices, it just seems so like whose stories get amplified of, you know, quote unquote, having their free speech crackdown on where it's like, oh, my college classroom, when I said something, they didn't like it compared to, you know, people being by.

00:41:02.400 It's just like it's it's just really wild to me in the mainstream coverage who gets amplified and who doesn't.

00:41:07.760 Yeah. Like in that, that, that story that was in the New York times recently, like the, the woman who wrote it, like had already just graduated and I think was working for reason magazine and like was being pushed up by fire and, uh, which is like a big org, like libertarian org.

00:41:24.240 Um, and like has like these powerful people behind her, like platforming. And she's like, she went to university of Virginia, which is like already like one of the top schools in the country.

00:41:32.340 and so she's like went to a top school is working at a national media and is like I can't say what

00:41:38.760 I want to say in the college classroom meanwhile the most banned books in the country are literally

00:41:45.680 is like literally um anything dealing with LGBTQ people I mean we're literally talking about like

00:41:50.860 books that feature like two penguins like it's it's insane like and there are like entire like

00:41:57.660 there are school boards like saying that books should be burned like i'm sorry like on what way

00:42:05.240 is any of this like on an equal plane like that is a much greater threat because like you know

00:42:12.220 the the cliche goes like where they burn books they will burn people like that is far scarier

00:42:21.500 because that is much more systemic and that is using the levers of government to achieve it

00:42:25.980 It's not a private company deciding who is coming into their little social media site

00:42:31.880 and saying stuff like that is that they're using the government.

00:42:34.660 And so like that is on that's explicitly what the First Amendment was to protect.

00:42:39.540 The First Amendment is to protect us against the government censoring speech.

00:42:44.720 So we have governments censoring speech, banning books and like barely a pip. 0.50

00:42:52.000 And, like, all of a sudden we have, like, one white girl on a college campus who feels like she can't say something, and, like, that's on the front page of the New York Times.

00:43:02.880 Like, I'm sorry.

00:43:04.200 Like, you lost me.

00:43:07.760 I guess, you know, do you see this kind of climate that we're in that is so hostile to, or where we're seeing such a backlash against marginalized voices that, you know, we know brew online and brew on social media sites?

00:43:22.000 do you see this as a direct threat to democracy? Yeah, I absolutely do. I mean, we've seen what

00:43:27.420 social media can do when it's unchecked. Literally, all we have to do is like a 2016.

00:43:32.020 I mean, I remember being in the middle of it on Reddit. Reddit was a heavy site for

00:43:36.540 disinformation in the 2016 campaign. And I felt like I was losing my mind. And reading similar

00:43:44.420 stories of people in Ukraine in 2014, that's what it feels like when you're subjected to that kind

00:43:50.120 disinformation because like you will talk to people in real life and like nobody talks that

00:43:55.100 way or believes anything like that and like there's one thing to be said about social media

00:43:59.060 bubbles and like stuff like that but it's a whole nother one it's like this just like completely out

00:44:04.220 of left field stuff and just the kind of vitriol that gets you know shared online and like we've

00:44:10.160 seen where that leads right like trump was most definitely like it's probably not the only factor

00:44:15.660 There's a million things that went into it, but a huge reason why Trump was elected is because of disinformation on Facebook, on Twitter, on Reddit, on all these sites.

00:44:26.720 And so for people to think that this doesn't have like a potential threat to democracy, it has the ability to influence democracy.

00:44:33.280 Like a conspiracy theory on Twitter got a man to go with an assault rifle to a pizza shop because of conspiracy theories around like the whole Pizzagate conspiracy.

00:44:44.240 there are people who believe that Wayfair is shipping children in furniture like

00:44:51.440 if you and like was the the I feel like this one's always misquoted but the the Voltaire

00:44:58.640 um quote is like if you can uh get people to believe in absurdities you can get them to

00:45:04.280 commit atrocities and like that that's exactly the kind of thing that I think about because like

00:45:11.080 If you start labeling trans people as this groomer cult that are going after children and damaging their bodies, quote unquote, and doing all these things and all of this and just the language you're using, it is a matter of time.

00:45:29.180 It is not an if, it is a when. 0.99

00:45:30.840 Someone is going to take matters into their own hands and they're either going to go shoot up a gay bar or they're going to bomb a gender clinic. 0.50

00:45:39.820 I mean, the kind of stuff that's going on around the organizing around gender clinics is the same kind of stuff that was happening in the 90s around abortion clinics. 0.78

00:45:51.580 And we've seen what happens around that. 0.58

00:45:54.780 And so this kind of amped up rhetoric, it's stochastic terrorism. 0.59

00:46:00.140 You can't pinpoint any violent act to anything said online, but the overall raising of the temperature is what allowed it to happen in the first place.

00:46:09.820 Yeah, I feel the exact same way. I live in D.C., so I remember very clearly when that happened at Comet Ping Pong, the pizza place here in D.C.

00:46:19.260 And I think even before we just got on the call just now, I was reading that I think the FBI arrested a man who was threatening to attack Merriam-Webster, the dictionary, because he did not agree with the way that they were defining man and woman.

00:46:33.400 And, yeah, I just feel like we've come to this place where the temperature has been raised so much. And I see that as a direct result of things happening on social media, of social media algorithms really, you know, prioritizing the most extreme content, the most inflammatory rhetoric.

00:46:52.000 And just, yeah, I guess I really, I hadn't intended for this interview to sound so alarmist, but it's, it is, I feel it. So, you know, it's just a lot. And I don't, I don't like, I don't feel good about when I ask, you know, where does this end? I don't really like imagining what the answer to that question is. Like, where does this end? I don't know. Probably nowhere good.

00:47:16.880 this is what i've been reading oh my god so you're so you're just like like really

00:47:23.260 doom scrolling is what i call it um so no i i held up the the book gay berlin um which i talked

00:47:32.180 about like pre-weimar but also mostly weimar uh republic era germany and how you know it was a

00:47:39.520 haven for lgbtq people um had like the first the first surgery gender affirming surgeries it had

00:47:46.320 some of the first attempt like first administrations of hormones um the first serious attempt at a

00:47:51.820 study of queer and trans people lesbians and gays and others like it just like by magnus

00:47:59.600 hirschfeld like all those things and there was just kind of this like golden era where it was

00:48:04.360 like it that never really existed in that way in the west of tolerance right in berlin and it all

00:48:10.220 just came crashing down so quickly in 1933 but like if you had been paying attention like

00:48:15.140 it wasn't a surprise like a lot of people got out like starting in the late 20s early 30s like

00:48:22.240 they saw what was happening and so it's like i think people just think that like these things

00:48:26.440 come out of nowhere and like you don't you know and i always hate like i said godwin's law like

00:48:31.700 bring up the nazis and stuff like that because that's kind of we just have so much media so

00:48:36.620 that's like it's easier to relate to but i think like if you you don't need to go far you can go

00:48:41.280 of contemporary examples. You have Hungary and Poland. Hungary has banned the existence of trans

00:48:47.600 people. They've banned all legal recognition of trans people in the country. They have passed

00:48:53.060 gay propaganda laws, which the press secretary for Ron DeSantis in Florida admitted now that it

00:49:00.700 was based on the ban in Hungary. So they're getting these ideas from these far-right

00:49:06.120 authoritarian illiberal countries and like russia just dissolved the biggest lgbtq rights org in the 0.63

00:49:14.180 country and they've passed a gay propaganda law like they see that and they see that as a model

00:49:20.300 like that is their goal that is their inspiration um and that's terrifying because like that's 0.99

00:49:27.780 exactly the same kind of stuff like like like queer people right now are like that canary in 1.00

00:49:32.960 the coal mine and i would argue like before that it was it's very much been immigrants like having 0.80

00:49:38.180 been an immigration attorney for three years the kinds of stuff that people would say about

00:49:42.380 immigrants the the kinds of policies we have here in the united states like like

00:49:46.680 our the conditions that we hold immigrants in and in detention and the rights that they have 1.00

00:49:53.840 like would violate the genuine convention like it is atrocious what we do it is a human rights 0.99

00:50:00.140 like violation and crime what we do around immigrants and like we saw the rhetoric with 1.00

00:50:06.340 trump right and then now it's it's lgbtq people and we already start to see this this kind of 0.56

00:50:12.000 massive reactionary backlash to the george floyd protest the black lives matter protest

00:50:16.520 and like it's it's only a matter of time like this is going to get worse and it always reminds

00:50:21.540 me of that poem it's like you know and i i posted this and it went viral and and you know some

00:50:26.880 people were like, well, you, it was this group or is that group? I'm like, that's not the point.

00:50:30.320 There's not a point of being a first group. It's the point that like, if you don't stand up for a

00:50:35.680 marginalized group, like it's, it's not going to stop. And so I posted the, you know, the famous 0.82

00:50:40.740 poem. It's like, first they came for trans people and I did nothing because I'm not trans that they 0.99

00:50:46.960 came for the lesbians and gays. And I did nothing because I'm not lesbian and gay. And I was like, 0.59

00:50:51.400 we are here right like especially after this like groomer rhetoric and it i was just like

00:50:58.560 it was mind-blowing to me to see conservative gay men freak out and like oh this has gone too far

00:51:05.840 like like andrew sullivan was like apoplectic about the groomer labor being applied to him

00:51:10.880 is happy to talk happy for that label to be applied to trans people but the minute it got

00:51:15.880 applied to him it's like whoa this has gone too far and it's like where did you think this was

00:51:19.180 going like did you think that they could just delineate between trans people and queer people

00:51:23.980 like they they can't like they're all the same they think we're all degenerates they think we're

00:51:29.080 all like need to be wiped from this planet like that it's exterminationist they are not going to

00:51:34.440 make some fine distinction for the good ones and be like oh no no he's okay no not gonna happen

00:51:40.320 well you know I always end my interviews with a question are you hopeful I guess I feel I feel

00:51:47.960 like, I mean, I'll ask, it doesn't sound like you are. When you look at the state of things today,

00:51:52.820 are you hopeful? I posted about this on my Twitter the other day. I am a pessimist.

00:52:00.400 Like I am a pessimist. I love the quote from, I'm a huge Marvel nerd. Like I love the MCU. I've

00:52:10.640 watched it. I just completed a whole rewatch of the MCU for like the fifth time. But there's like

00:52:15.560 Zendaya's character MJ in Spider-Man and she's talking

00:52:19.660 and she's like, you know, I always expect

00:52:23.500 disappointment so that way, you know, if it happens then, you know,

00:52:27.500 I won't be disappointed. And that's the kind of attitude I have

00:52:31.480 which I feel like a lot of people, like, that doesn't work for them and that's fine. Like, some people need to be optimistic.

00:52:36.840 Nothing wrong with that. The way I function and the way that I

00:52:39.540 cope is pessimism because if I'm wrong, which

00:52:43.500 I always hope I am. Things worked out much better than I anticipated. And so that's always kind of

00:52:49.280 served me well. And so like, for me, like I see this going down a very dark path and I don't think

00:52:54.220 there's anything changing and it's only accelerating and getting worse. And like, I fully believe like

00:53:00.700 by 2024, like by November, 2024 or early 2025, like I think we'll see a like basically collapse

00:53:07.720 of democracy in the United States. And things can go very south very quickly. And so I've been

00:53:15.480 starting to prepare. I'm getting my passport ready and I'm starting to save up a ton of money and

00:53:19.520 getting ready to like, yeah, hey, Europe sounds good around this time of year. And I know there's

00:53:26.100 not an option for everyone. It really isn't. A lot of people can't just immigrate. A lot of people

00:53:30.560 can't get passports. A lot of people can't get the money to even fly. So that's a privilege in

00:53:35.900 of itself but like we've got time if you can like you know save money like all those things I feel

00:53:43.660 like I'm being very alarmist and like negative but hey if it doesn't if everything turns out

00:53:50.120 fine and I'm catastrophically wrong which I hope I am well now I've got my passport and I got a ton

00:53:56.420 of money and I can go on vacation oh there you go that's a that's a like you know a little silver 0.99

00:54:02.840 lining on this shit sandwich that is our democracy and our country. Oh, I mean, it's bad. I used to 0.99

00:54:12.640 joke years ago, back when I thought it was impossible. So my organizing background is in

00:54:20.200 the reproductive rights movement. And I used to joke years ago that like, oh, if Roe ever falls,

00:54:26.120 I hope I will be reading about it from the newspaper in a different country. And now it

00:54:30.760 seems like, oh, well, I'm still here in the United States and it seems like it's going to happen. So

00:54:34.380 guess that didn't work out for me so well. Yeah. I mean, like ask, you know, LGBTQ Russians,

00:54:41.380 right? Like I used to have some friends who were from Russia and it was like, when is it going to

00:54:48.500 get too bad to go back, right? Like for them, like to even visit their family. And, you know,

00:54:54.920 now obviously things have gone to a point where it's like not, not really okay. But for LGBTQ

00:55:00.320 you people like was it in 2013 when they passed the gay propaganda law was it like 2017 when

00:55:05.640 Chechnya started a concentration camp for gay men like is it now that they start the word so like

00:55:11.500 there's always a question of like when is the right timing and I don't think there really is

00:55:14.700 like if you left Berlin in 1929 you'd be fine if you left in 1932 you'd be fine if you even left

00:55:21.960 in 1933 you'd likely be okay if you waited until 1935 or even 1939 you were not going to be okay

00:55:30.300 Right. Like, and so it's like learning our history so that you can see the signs and knowing, okay, this is my red line.

00:55:39.480 Like I need to get out of here or in having an exit plan because things can also move quickly.

00:55:44.380 I feel like knowing your history and knowing history is empowering.

00:55:49.720 I'm, I mean, I'm glad that we have folks like you in our institutions who are helping, you know, the next generation to really have that power to be empowered by our.

00:56:00.300 collective shared history, try as conservatives might to make that impossible to study and know

00:56:07.080 and learn from. Yeah, exactly. Where can folks keep up with all of the incredible work that I

00:56:14.040 know that you are up to? Yeah, you can find me, all my social media handles are sqeer underscore,

00:56:19.800 so E-S-Q-U-E-E-R. It is a portmanteau of Esquire and Queer. Again, you can find me at 0.86

00:56:26.520 squeer underscore, on Twitter, Instagram. And you can catch my podcast, Queering the Law.

00:56:33.900 We typically release weekly on Mondays. You can find it basically anywhere podcasts are issued.

00:56:41.480 And yeah, thank you so much for having me. Is there anything that I did not ask,

00:56:46.520 but you want to make sure it gets included? Yeah, please, please donate to the Trevor Project.

00:56:52.920 There is going to be a massive smear campaign against the Trevor Project this week or this upcoming week.

00:56:59.920 This is how low they've stooped. They're attacking a suicide hotline.

00:57:03.920 It's fucking sick. Like, that's all I'm going to say. So please, if you can, ten, twenty, thirty dollars. 1.00

00:57:10.920 It's lifesaving work. Our youth are bearing the brunt of this and they need the help and support.

00:57:17.920 So please, if you can, donate to the Trevor Project.

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00:57:41.800 Bridget Todd.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - November 23, 2022

Rerun： The moral panic behind “groomers” is an attack on marginalized people

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