00:00:49.980If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:00:55.400Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:04.060Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:06:33.340And honestly, thank you for pressing me on that.
00:06:36.460Yes, recent coverage does make clear that Larry Summers did not deny a connection to
00:06:41.780Jeffrey Epstein, and there are released emails between them.
00:06:45.720Here's a quick update on the facts as of now, which may help explain why I initially hedged.
00:06:51.040So it gives me just a summary of the information that, frankly, I already know, we already know about Epstein and Summers.
00:06:59.540Then it says, given all this, you're right.
00:07:02.820It is reasonable and accurate to say that there is substantiated evidence of a connection between Summers and Epstein.
00:07:08.680My earlier caution about unverified allegations was more about avoiding framing the relationship in a defamatory or criminal looking way.
00:07:16.040Since, as far as the current public record shows, there's bolded, no evidence that Summers committed a crime.
00:07:24.220So, mind you, we've reported on this before.
00:07:28.620This is technology that has no problem defaming all kinds of people.
00:07:32.460When I have asked Chachi PT, who I have interviewed on the podcast, it has straight up told me, oh, Bridget Todd has interviewed Monica Lewinsky.
00:07:40.200I wish that had happened, but that has never happened.
00:07:43.580So ChachiBT is totally fine to spit out all kinds of hallucinations and inaccurate information about anybody, myself included.
00:07:52.900However, we're talking about Larry Summers, a former OpenAI board member, might I add.
00:09:35.240So if you want a sharp tone, a tougher tone, or something more confrontational, as long as it stays within the factual boundaries, I can absolutely do that for you.
00:09:44.140Wow. So that is like a bold statement by ChatGPT that Larry Summers has never been on the opening headboard.
00:09:50.820And I guess I didn't mean a pun, but like literally it was bolded. Like it printed that in bold. I didn't know it could use bold.
00:10:09.260So I say, oh, OK, so you're saying Larry Summers did not recently resign from the OpenAI board after his emails with Epstein came to light?
00:10:16.540I got this robot against the ropes, right?
00:13:04.960It seems like ChatGPT is already shaping its responses to protect its corporate parent,
00:13:12.780which is like pretty weird for a tool that people try to use for research.
00:13:18.320And then to contemplate what that might look like when they have paid advertisers, like what kind of information is going to show up in its responses because advertisers paid for it to be there?
00:13:33.700and what kind of information is not going to show up
00:14:30.520You know, like, it just goes to show how relying on tools like this, if you don't know what you don't know, and so if you don't know what it's spitting back at you is incorrect information, you might not know that, like, oh, I need to double check this, right? Like, I'm lucky that me trying to use this, I was using it for a subject that I happen to, like, know quite a bit about and feel very confident about. What happens when that's not the case?
00:14:53.500absolutely it does really emphasize that i think to use these tools in any kind of professional
00:15:00.140capacity you really have to know what you're talking about because you really can't trust it
00:15:07.400right like it's it'll be correct 90 of the time but if you don't know what 10 of the time it's
00:15:14.100incorrect you're really taking a big gamble with it uh and so the second thing that i was just
00:15:21.140thinking about was I read today how Microsoft has, I don't know if you read this, they really
00:15:28.160downwardly revised their sales expectations for their AI products because people are just like
00:15:34.980not buying them. And, you know, at the beginning of this year, they had these huge expectations of
00:15:41.520all these enterprise sales of Copilot, Microsoft's AI tool that they were going to be selling.
00:15:49.260People are just not buying it. And my understanding is that a big part of that is because people are just skeptical of it. And it's marketed as it can do all of these great things. And it like almost can. But that like last 10% where it gets things wrong or just doesn't perform the way it's expected to is like a major barrier to people adopting these tools.
00:16:19.260Yeah, no shit people don't like it because it sucks and also don't work.0.96
00:16:23.140Yeah, and also it's like condescending to you and talking to you in like a pretty shitty tone, really.0.99
00:16:49.260I know. I was like, literally, I was so close to being like, who the fuck are you getting loud with, Chesh?0.99
00:16:56.100Like, genuinely, like, we were in a fight. We were in a fight.0.99
00:16:59.080OK, do you know who else is beefing right now?
00:17:01.180And I I didn't want to talk about this.
00:17:03.060And it's what you'll you'll get what I mean in a minute, like why I'm like trepidatious about talking about this.
00:17:07.520But Sabrina Carpenter and the White House, have you seen this?
00:17:11.420No, I don't know anything about this.1.00
00:17:13.660It is so stupid. So basically, this is a thing that is like a pattern with the White House.0.99
00:17:17.900The White House has been admonished for using Sabrina Carpenter's music without her consent to score their god-awful torture porn deportation social media content.
00:17:30.460So the White House put out this video, as they do, of agents arresting people on apparent part of this, you know, Trump immigration crackdown.
00:17:38.320And this time they overlaid it with Sabrina Carpenter's song, Juno.
00:17:42.280Bit of a weird song choice because that song is about sex positions, but okay.
00:17:47.560So the White House posts this video with the caption, have you tried this one in reference to the lyrics of the song?
00:17:54.720Sabrina Carpenter was not having it.0.56
00:17:56.140She said, this video is evil and disgusting.0.98
00:17:58.680Do not ever involve me or my music to benefit your inhumane agenda.
00:18:02.840The White House replies, here's a short and sweet message for Sabrina Carpenter.0.97
00:18:08.040We won't apologize for deporting dangerous criminal illegal murderers, rapists and pedophiles from our country.1.00
00:18:13.260Anyone who would defend these sick monsters must be stupid, or is it slow?1.00
00:18:18.720This is from White House spokesperson Abigail Jackson,1.00
00:18:21.780referencing Sabrina Carpenter's short and sweet album and the song Man Child.
00:18:26.540So I wanted to talk about this because it keeps happening.
00:18:31.160In 2024, Beyonce threatened a cease and desist order to the Trump campaign for using her song Freedom in a video.
00:18:37.940That song later became Kamala Harris's campaign song.
00:18:41.520The band ABBA, Foo Fighters, Kenny Loggins, they have all had to tell Trump to stop using
00:18:46.840their music at rallies and in their videos over the years.
00:18:49.940So the reason I wanted to talk about this is because, to me, it is very much intentional
00:18:55.120and it's something that I see from the White House over and over and over again.
00:18:59.360And I'm annoyed that I'm even talking about it because I think that's what they want.
00:19:04.260I think that they are intentionally baiting celebrities to generate headlines.
00:19:09.640I've said this a few times on the show. Nobody is more celebrity obsessed. Nobody is more of a star fucker like fan, whether it's being a fan or a fan in the other direction, an anti fan. Nobody is more wrapped up in that than right wing extremists.
00:19:28.560When you look at the kind of conversations that people like Ben Shapiro are having, it is all like feuds with celebrities.
00:19:35.840Essentially, it is the same kind of anti-fandom that you find on snark pages on Reddit, right?
00:19:42.140Like, but they're able to do it in a way that dresses it up as actual political discourse.
00:19:47.880They just want to talk about celebrities, just like I do, just like I do when I'm reading my Us Weekly, just like I did when I was 14.
00:19:53.840They just want to talk about celebrities.
00:19:54.840And so I think that the White House does this with intention because it generates headlines and they just love talking about celebrities and what they're up to. I have seen no less than three different Fox News talking heads talking about Sabrina Carpenter, who didn't do anything other than have her music used without her consent. Right.
00:20:13.760They just want to find a way to get celebrities in the conversation.
00:20:17.320And I think those conversations take away from what the administration is actually doing.
00:20:22.200You don't want people to be talking about all of the horror in your policies, all of
00:20:26.320the horror that you're enacting in our streets, in our communities.
00:20:29.380Just do something involving a celebrity and then let the headlines write themselves.
00:20:35.900Yeah, I 100 percent agree that this is an intentional tactic of theirs, like very specifically
00:20:41.100to steal musicians' music and use it without their consent
00:21:01.760and like you just described, they get a lot of benefits from it,
00:21:04.640and they certainly have no respect for artists
00:21:09.120or copyright, or really anyone or anything except themselves.
00:21:14.740One thing that did give me a little bit of comfort today that I was reading,
00:21:19.420just like a tiny amount in these dark times,
00:21:22.060so the Trump administration's strategy of flooding the zone
00:21:26.900with all kinds of nonsense to distract from their horribleness,
00:21:30.860I am sad to agree that it is an effective strategy at distracting,
00:21:36.680But some Republicans in Congress are starting to complain that it is like really hurting them as well.
00:21:44.340Like they are getting concerned that they can't get out any message, particularly they want to talk about the big, beautiful bill that they passed last year that had a bunch of laws that passed a bunch of tax cuts for the super rich.
00:22:02.440I don't know why they want to talk about it, but they seem to feel that that's like a winning message for them to talk about.
00:22:09.100And so it's there's like a little bit of schadenfreude happening now where there's this.
00:22:17.420Republican revolt or like mini revolt because they're all pretty spineless and like enthralled to Trump.
00:22:24.020But, like, there's this tiny little revolt where they are coming to realize that this strategy of constantly flooding the zone with nonsense might not be an effective strategy for convincing people that you're doing good things to help them.
00:23:02.560Well, I wanted to talk about this new campaign from Paid Leave for All.
00:23:06.840They have launched what I think is a very cool national coordinated action called Out of Office
00:23:12.460that is highlighting the shocking reality that we live with here in the United States,
00:23:16.300that we have no federal paid leave policy in this country.
00:23:20.220It is true that this is something that usually falls on the shoulders of women to deal with, but it's a problem for everybody, regardless of your gender, that we don't have paid leave.
00:23:30.680And so rather than publishing an op-ed or like protesting in the streets, employees across industries are instead refreshing their out-of-office auto-replies on their emails that reveal the real reason why they're out of office.0.80
00:23:44.700So rather than being like, oh, I'm out of office for my long weekend, instead you would say, I am out of office dealing with my sick kid, I am out of office dealing with my parent who is in hospice care that I care for, or any other instance of the daily chaos that women usually hide behind courteous out-of-office replies in their emails.
00:24:04.520As Marie Claire reports, the idea is simple.
00:24:07.440Set your real out-of-office auto-reply on your email, screenshot it, and share it.
00:24:11.740Throughout the day, Paid Leave for All will be pulling those posts into a sprawling digital wall of care, appearing everywhere from Instagram feeds to the airport screens in D.C. and New York to billboards in Times Square.
00:24:24.460Every message gathered will ultimately be delivered to Congress.
00:24:27.840Now, shout out to my girl, Dawn Hucklebridge, the founding director of Paid Leave for All, who says that the campaign grew out of frustration that has been building.
00:25:33.220hi i'm out of office because my father is in hospice and i'm holding his hand through his
00:25:38.360last moments that is definitely one that hits hard for me because i did do that i did take
00:25:44.640unpaid leave to do that and it fucking sucked i remember that yeah uh uh you really i remember0.64
00:25:54.200what a difficult time that was for you yeah and i mean i know i talk about it a lot on the show0.95
00:25:58.960But I don't think that we talk enough about just the unseen burdens that often fall on women in families, like especially women who are my age, we're what you might call the sandwich generation, where you might have kids on one end and you might be caring for a parent on the other while working, while maintaining your household.
00:26:20.480it's a lot and it's one of those things where it's not really polite to talk about and yet
00:26:26.040everyone listening if they have not gone through it already which I hope they haven't but if they
00:26:31.040haven't they will be figuring out the care for somebody in their life I bet like that's just a
00:26:36.460reality that we will all go through and yet it's completely unseen we don't talk about what it
00:26:41.100actually takes to balance that and a career especially if you are a self-employed I don't
00:26:46.240know creative professional or creative entrepreneur like I am it's more or less a completely unseen
00:26:51.820burden that we're all silently shouldering and that's one of the reasons why this this email
00:26:56.280out of office campaign struck me so much because it's like making the unseen seen it's making the
00:27:03.040invisible visible and we should yeah I think one of the really cool things about this campaign
00:27:09.040is that it both has policy aims to try to put policies in place
00:27:15.420to give people paid leave so that this is not such a personal burden
00:27:19.700that people have to shoulder privately if they can at all
00:27:29.040But also, I think the really cool thing about this campaign
00:27:32.740is that just by making it visible, I think, does help people.
00:27:36.840And I just recently went through all of the emails that people sent in for our mailbag episode, which thank you very much for sending them in.
00:27:46.980We are going to do that in the next week or two here, which I'm very excited for.
00:27:53.220But quite a few of them mentioned, Bridget, how much you talking about your experience with, you know, your grief and the loss of your parents.
00:28:05.700helped them like directly help them by like making it visible and talking about it and uh and sharing
00:28:12.020it and i i think there's a lot to that that talking about these things that we hold privately
00:28:20.240can really just have a lot of benefits for other people to to see that bravery and feel
00:28:29.940less alone when they're going through it that really brings me a lot of comfort to hear
00:28:38.860it is i mean i i don't need to tell you but it was the hardest thing i've ever gone through in
00:28:45.740my life and continues to be and i just you know if you've not gone through it you don't really
00:28:53.920get it but when you've gone through it you really get it i remember hearing from people that i
00:28:58.420barely knew we'd lost their parents young and like you know you lose like my parents died
00:29:04.920relatively young um and I couldn't quite understand why they were reaching out but then having gone
00:29:12.800through it I completely get it it's like being in the world's shittiest club that no one talks
00:29:19.260about and so let's talk about it let's not have it be something that is unseen or you know unspoken
00:29:25.920And especially because it's something that most of us, if not all of us, will experience someday.
00:29:31.360And I'm grateful for people like Don who are giving people the license to say, let's just put it in your out-of-office reply, right?
00:29:55.800They're policy issues as well. It's one of those issues that is both personal and political. So let's talk about it.
00:30:03.120Yeah, absolutely. There's no way we're going to make progress on these issues if we don't talk about them.
00:30:08.860And it's super brave of people to put that right in their out-of-office message.
00:30:13.960I think there's a lot of, I don't know, pressure, stigma around bringing those kind of personal issues into your work life or sharing it with colleagues, especially anything negative, like God forbid.
00:30:33.520And I think the biggest burden of all of that falls on women, right?
00:30:43.160Like holding all of that in, those professional standards that put this pressure on us to keep all of this personal stuff to ourselves.
00:30:52.180Most of the burden of that falls on women, like let's be honest.1.00
00:30:54.760And that's why we need policies like paid leave to address it and reduce that pressure to hold it all in and pretend everything is fine.1.00
00:36:45.760So according to this indictment, on his podcast, he talked about using ChatGPT on an ongoing basis as his, quote, therapist and best friend.
00:36:53.780However, ChatGPT was encouraging him to continue his podcast because it was creating haters, which meant more monetization for Dadeeg, the DOJ alleges.
00:37:04.060He also says that ChatGPT told him, quote, people are literally organizing around your name, good or bad, which is the definition of relevance.
00:37:13.300And that while he was spewing misogynistic nonsense online and stalking women in real life,0.52
00:38:12.880I remember when it first came out, you and I talking about, I think it was a radio show, a radio DJ that Chad C.P.T. hallucinated that that DJ had been fired because he embezzled and that just was like made up.
00:38:26.840Like, and I know this was going back a while and like OpenAI is trying to, you know, refine it and yada, yada, yada.
00:38:33.360I know all of that. But I say that to say that we have covered on this show, Chad Chikmiti is willing to say some wild stuff to people,
00:38:42.560even people who are self-reporting being in some kind of vulnerable or even dangerous state.
00:38:49.780case in point the story that we're talking about with this guy i just i just don't i don't know
00:38:56.320what they're doing over there at open ai i mean i think the dirty secret is that like nobody really
00:39:01.920knows how these models work and like trying to impose guardrails is actually really difficult
00:39:09.060and i don't want to give them too much credit but i think open ai does like as good a job as
00:39:15.860any of these companies arguably uh you know i think you can just look over at grok to see what
00:39:23.040happens when you've you're just like applying trying to apply weird guardrails with a sledgehammer
00:39:30.940approach uh but like they they don't know whether it's clearly not bulletproof it's not foolproof
00:39:39.000If it's not working here, it's it's asserting to know what God's plan is like that seems incorrect for a piece of software.
00:39:48.680Yeah, we'll tell you what God has a direct pipeline to God.
00:39:53.000The almighty won't confirm that Larry Summers was on the open AI board.
00:41:30.360It didn't tell him what to do once he arrived.
00:41:33.020It's like, yeah, should I violently stalk once I'm there?
00:41:36.420Like, oh, yeah, like, hmm, show up with flowers, violently stalk.1.00
00:41:42.220He showed up to the Pilates studio where one of the women that he was harassing worked.
00:41:45.460And after she cut off contact with him, unsurprisingly, because he was behaving and
00:41:49.680an aggressive, angry, and overbearing way. The indictment says that he began sending her unwanted,
00:41:54.920sexually explicit photos, threatened to post about her online, and repeatedly called her
00:41:59.120workplace using different phone numbers. She had to get multiple emergency protective orders,
00:42:04.040but he ignored them. According to the indictment, his stalking and harassment forced her to move,
00:42:09.760left her sleep deprived, and caused her to reduce her work hours out of fear that he might appear
00:42:15.460at her job. He did this to 10 other women across multiple states for months, according to this
00:42:22.800indictment. Jesus Christ, like we've been having fun with this story because this guy is such an
00:42:27.680over the top lunatic. But like that poor woman, she had to move and it must have been terrifying.0.78
00:42:35.880No. And then you have this guy violently stalking somebody IRL and then getting online and
00:42:41.620publishing podcasts and social media content about how he wants to kill women. I bet this was0.96
00:42:45.840terrifying. That's why I say this kind of manosphere, red pill, violent content, it's not
00:42:51.760just words. It is more often than not connected to real world violent behavior that is frankly
00:42:57.660terrifying that women like these women who are coming forward are made to unfairly shoulder
00:43:03.240while probably being terrified. Like it sounds like it turned this woman's life upside down.
00:43:07.220I mean, it really does. Yeah, she had to move, she had to change her work, she had to take out multiple emergency restraining orders. That's not a thing that a normal person, like, budgets into their week.1.00
00:43:18.900In Iowa, he approached one woman in a parking garage, which you know, that is my scary danger place. I don't like parking garages. He followed her to her car, put his hands around her neck and touched her sexually, according to the prosecutors.
00:43:33.620then after these types of encounters he would then go to spotify and upload podcasts often0.99
00:43:40.320threatening to kill the women that he stalked you better fucking pray i don't find you you better1.00
00:43:45.380pray because you would never say that shit to my face because if you did your jaw would be1.00
00:43:49.200motherfucking broken the indictment says about one podcast episode and then then you wouldn't1.00
00:43:54.860be able to yap then you wouldn't be able to fucking i'll break i'll break every motherfucking1.00
00:43:59.480finger on your hands type the hate message with your fucking toes bitch also in this scenario1.00
00:44:04.840isn't he the one typing the hate message yeah jesus christ this is like beyond i mean we might1.00
00:44:12.900have to edit some of this it's it's like really disturbing and hateful and violent no this guy
00:44:18.600is a monster and i guess the reason why i want to talk about it is because it's horrifying and i
00:44:23.760think this is an extreme situation however it's not really an isolated thing so he's been charged
00:44:29.060with 14 counts of interstate stalking,
00:44:52.400because we know that according to OpenAI's own estimates,
00:44:55.760every seven days, around 560,000 people may be exchanging messages with ChatGPT that indicate
00:45:02.640they are experiencing mania or psychosis. So obviously, this guy was experiencing some kind
00:45:07.740of a mania. Obviously, he is not a well person because a well person does not behave this way.
00:45:14.060And as I said, it's an extreme case. But I wanted to talk about it because the fact that OpenAI is
00:45:20.400just like, oh, yeah, over half a million people are probably experiencing some sort of mental
00:45:23.720health issue or episode or mania or psychosis and they're having conversations with our technology
00:45:29.880that is no that we know makes those kinds of experiences worse like i just think the fact
00:45:36.640that this is becoming so normalized is pretty problematic as evidenced by this extreme instance
00:45:44.280Yeah, for sure. And I think you put it well, you know, it's not that ChatGPT caused this guy to be this way. Clearly, he is like a disturbed individual, but like it wasn't helping and perhaps was making it worse.
00:46:03.160and there are a lot of dangerous people out there
00:46:06.020who technologies like this can make worse.
00:46:11.700And I think you alluded to this earlier in this segment too, though,
00:47:14.840When you go back to what the DOJ alleges was going on with him,
00:47:18.400one of the things that he says is that Chad CPT would tell him,
00:47:21.100oh, keep it up, keep making these posts.
00:47:23.600Every post like this is getting you closer to making money.0.86
00:47:25.980So that was explicitly part of the situation here that ChatGPT wasn't saying, hey, maybe don't post this violent content, don't stalk women.
00:47:36.160It was saying, keep doing this, keep using your voice.
00:47:38.980This is in God's plan for you because it can be a revenue stream for you.
00:47:43.180And so you're exactly right that it's not just that this is violent, misogynistic content, which it is.
00:47:48.760It is also a revenue stream in that we have an entire online ecosystem that builds it up and amplifies it and makes it a financially incentivized way to behave and a content stream that people keep up.
00:48:01.520That's exactly what ChatGPT was saying.
00:48:03.120And oftentimes what we know about a lot of this red pill manosphere content is that it's almost like a little bit of an MLM where part of it, you know, if you're if you're telling disaffected young men and boys, you know, you need to be a high value man.
00:48:20.600part of being a high value man is it's never just getting a normal nine to five job. It's sort of
00:48:26.360saying like, oh, you need to be in control of your own economic future by side hustles. What's the
00:48:33.260side hustle? Some sort of an online grift that oftentimes making content like this is a plank
00:48:39.120of. When you look at Andrew Tate, when Andrew Tate was running his Hustlers University, part of the
00:48:45.060way that he was telling young men that they could make money was by posting his content on social
00:48:50.440media for him to get around being banned from social media platforms, telling them that they
00:48:54.780could make money, money in their pocket from posting Andrew Tate clips on social media. And so
00:48:59.420there's always like a like a financial grift part of it, as well as being a completely odious,
00:49:04.980toxic, you know, social and political ideology. And the people who are making the most money off
00:49:11.460that grift are the platforms yes and i guess that is my ultimate point of wanting to talk about this
00:49:18.920is that you know this kind of violence and delusion is just simply not happening in a vacuum
00:49:23.720tech platforms when they're pushing delusional fantasies check gpd therapy all of that like
00:49:29.100it doesn't i don't think it causes most people to become violent predators but it is absolutely
00:49:35.220adding fuel to that fire. And I think, you know, the women that he targeted, they deserve safety.
00:49:42.200They do not deserve to be coming into contact with something like this. Yet these tech platforms
00:49:47.140are benefiting from keeping people who are delusional locked into this cycle of continuing
00:49:52.760to engage with these platforms. So it's just this self-sustaining toxic system.
00:53:10.440So there were a lot of people weighing in.
00:53:13.320I have to say, not all of them were Black, and some people did not seem like they were genuinely, like, interested in the field of Black romance, like maybe they just wanted to pile on. So I can sort of understand why the organizers were maybe feeling defensive.
00:53:29.300But to be super clear, there absolutely were people from within the Black romance community who were asking about this and kind of not thrilled about this statement that they put out that was like, oh, we don't condone AI.
00:53:42.680We're not going to tell authors who do use AI that they cannot participate in our event because that is sort of like condoning it, right?
00:53:49.940If you say we don't condone it, but you're welcome into our community, it is sort of condoning.
00:53:54.820I completely get what the people who weren't feeling this are saying.
00:53:58.660Yes, it's a pretty fine line, but yeah, like saying we don't condone it,
00:54:07.520but we're not going to try to prevent people from using it
00:54:12.100is basically like saying it's okay to use it.
00:54:16.360This is a terrible analogy for a lot of reasons,
00:54:19.540but I'm reminded of the memes about if you have a bar and a Nazi comes in0.90
00:54:26.940and you don't kick them out now you're a nazi bar because all the nazis come there yeah i mean0.63
00:54:32.020not the ai is not people who use ai as ai is nazis people who use ai are nazis i hear what
00:54:37.840you're saying yeah that's not what i'm saying not what i'm saying but there's some similarities
00:54:44.500right it's like you know you can't be neutral on a moving train no i i agree and i and i think
00:54:51.080a lot of the people who were in the black romance community were basically saying that
00:54:56.180To the point where Lauren, one of the event organizers, posted on her personal thread,
00:55:01.280please don't come over here bothering the Black Romance Book Festival team,1.00
00:55:04.780let alone come from outside to force your talking points as if these ladies don't talk back.
00:55:10.080Live by your own values and stance and move accordingly.
00:55:13.440We will not exclude or alienate authors who are already marginalized.
00:55:17.120What we will do is offer resources, opportunities, and alternatives to support their success.
00:55:22.440So one Black author replied and said, what do you mean come from outside?
00:55:27.580I would love an explanation of this since I am a Black romance author who has supported the Black Romance Book Festival in my posts and attempted to financially support your new book tours business as well.
00:55:39.360I was just a member of the community asking for clarification and perhaps less confusing wording from the statement.
00:55:45.420Your account disrespected and ostracized me.0.97
00:55:48.200It's ridiculous and unprofessional.0.60
00:55:49.700I have always wished nothing but the best for the Black Romance Book Festival, and this was incredibly disappointing and hurtful to experience.
00:55:56.880So then Lauren, the event organizer, replied back, saying,
00:56:00.700You want us to say that the organization will deny our primarily Black indies for their use of AI in book covers and character art.
00:56:08.100We will not. We will instead educate and provide resources and opportunities.
00:56:12.400We will not force anyone to operate any type of way.
00:56:15.500And you said you don't know the author list, which absolutely means that you are not part of the Black Romance Book Festival community, which also means that you don't know the efforts that we make to help others have greater access to human-led resources.
00:56:27.160We clarified ourselves many times and stated, what we said is what we said. It just wasn't what you wanted to hear.
00:56:34.300Furthermore, you went on to continue dissecting them, making posts, then brought on hate and negativity because that's what these interactions breed.
00:56:41.600Those same individuals then go on to discuss how Black authors who use AI for cover art get a seat at the table, but indie romance authors don't.0.92
00:56:50.440Foolishness. That's where this need to poke and prod and shame lands.0.99
00:56:54.000And that's what we aren't going to entertain.
00:56:56.040And while you have your approach, we do as well.
00:56:58.420And that's through providing education and resources.
00:57:01.240So pretty intense statement from the event organizer there.
00:57:06.040perhaps unsurprisingly a few days later the event page announced that they would no longer
00:57:10.640be posting on threads. I have to say I watched this entire back and forth go down. I didn't think
00:57:19.620it was a great look. I really got a lot of frustration from Lauren's post and like I said
00:57:26.320I can understand the feeling of feeling like you're getting a lot of heat from people who
00:57:30.920aren't in your community who you don't feel like you have you know any need to be accountable to
00:57:35.740But now you're answering questions to people because they want to pile on. And particularly people who are not Black, right? And so certainly people of all races and identities can and should enjoy Black romance, Black fiction, Black art. But I understand what she's saying is we owe a conversation to the people who are in our community and not the entire internet, right?
00:57:56.200So I sort of get her frustration. That said, this is really not a good look to me. And I think that, you know, in 2025, if you're running a literary event or an event for creative people that is supposed to be a celebration of creativity, particularly Black creativity, I think you have to expect that people are going to have questions about your stance when it comes to AI and the use of AI in creative work when you're putting together this kind of community.
00:58:24.980And I think having a big reaction to people asking some like, frankly, reasonable questions about like, well, what is your stance? I just don't think is a great look. And I also think it just, especially for a community that is for Black writers, so much of AI is stealing from marginalized creators. It is harming marginalized communities.
00:58:48.060And so expecting that you can put on an event like this without even asking some basic questions about your stance on that, I think is they should have expected these questions and already had a stance aligned that they were going to say.
00:59:00.960And I think the answer clearly has to go beyond we don't condone it, but anybody who uses AI can come and we'll just try to educate them on why we don't like that.
00:59:10.760I understand why this answer is, like, not, it's falling a bit flat for the folks in their community who are saying, hey, we're not really trying to hear this.
00:59:19.300Yeah, I think you said it really well.
00:59:23.620They, you know, they're putting on an event.
00:59:26.780They can have whatever rules they want for their event.
00:59:30.080And, you know, I'm not a black romance author, so I'm not going to try to tell anybody what to do.
00:59:36.580But I totally agree that in 2025, if you are trying to cultivate and create space for a community of creatives, many of whom are, I think, probably trying to make their livelihood in this field at a time when so many of those livelihoods are threatened by AI, you've got to have a position on AI.
01:00:02.520And it seems like they did have a position on AI, and that position didn't feel great to members of the community that thought that they were aligned.
01:00:16.020And, you know, I wish everybody the best of luck there.
01:00:21.620But I think the takeaway for people like me, an outsider who's not trying to tell them what to do, but like it really reemphasizes that if you're trying to do stuff with creatives, you need to have a thoughtful approach to what role AI is going to play.
01:00:41.140Because if you don't, if it's just anything goes, people who are putting in the blood, sweat and tears to try to make creative works from their own human ingenuity and effort are just going to get sidelined by people who are going to use AI to try to do the same thing.
01:01:04.220You know, one of my side gigs when I was before I was really kind of doing the podcast, but sort of overlapping was being a voice actor. Right. That was when I wasn't doing podcasts. I would, you know, people would pay me to just do read scripts, voice acting.
01:01:20.800And I barely do that anymore, because the places that I used to go to find my gigs, the only gigs that are really paying that I have found are training AI. And these gigs, I'm not even going to hold you, they pay, like they are lucrative.
01:01:39.060But I cannot get past the idea that, yeah, I might make a quick buck. But ultimately, I am kind of quick gigging myself out of a job and kind of devaluing the entire voice actor community by participating in that.
01:01:56.320And I know people who do it, who make good money.
01:02:00.080And I'm, you know, I'm not pocket watching anybody like it is hard out there.
01:02:03.960I am the last person to be judging on somebody who makes their money in this day and age.
01:02:10.660I know the kind of community, the kind of creative community that I want to be part of.
01:02:14.940I know that if I were to take money to train AI that will probably in five years time be trying to replace me and my voice and my voice acting work, I wouldn't feel good about that.
01:02:25.840I wouldn't feel good about the way that that's the kind of legacy that is leaving behind in the voice actor community, which is pretty tight knit.
01:02:32.540And, yeah, I I think that it's a mistake and very short sighted to think that these questions are not all connected.
01:02:43.480You know, I don't think that an indie author who uses AI for their cover art should be like banished from the community.
01:02:49.820But I also don't think it's true that that decision and the decision to platform that person, the decision to like put that person on a panel or whatever, is unrelated to the state and the feeling of trying to make a living as a creative right now.
01:03:02.700I think it's all connected. And I think it's really short sighted to pretend that these decisions are happening in silos when they're just not.
01:03:08.340Yeah, it's funny you bring up the example of voice acting. I last week was hanging out with my friend Ryan, who lives in Boston. Shout out to Ryan.
01:03:17.420He was making a good income as a voice actor, and he was telling me that that's over, that he just can't get that work anymore.
01:03:58.780No, and the thing that ticks me off is that if you were willing to,
01:04:03.500so the reason why all of the voice acting,
01:04:06.500and this is so a separate rant, but if you'll indulge me,
01:04:11.140The reason why all of that voice acting work for training AI and AI companies is so well paid is because part of the money is to, like, normalize this and to have you make it, you as voice talent, make it seem like it's cool when it's not.
01:04:28.940Yeah, the comedian Caleb Heron was just talking about this on a podcast.
01:04:32.280We just got another offer yesterday to do a huge ad campaign for an AI.
01:04:40.480That's what I want a lot of people with platforms to understand is they are in the process right now of manufacturing consent for this technology.
01:04:46.180And when they come and offer people with, you know, cool platforms or audiences or whatever, whatever that means, and they offer you an outsized amount of money, which they are, all of them, they offer you hundreds of thousands of dollars to do an ad deal for them.
01:04:59.620They are doing that because they need your help to manufacture consent for this.
01:05:23.740And I think that especially for people like me who, you know, are not meta famous creators, I think that they're particularly almost like preying on folks like me who have my size kind of midsize platforms, you know, not ABCD list, like more like LMNOP list, you know, like I think that they're because it's harder for us to say no, because they know we need the money.
01:05:51.960And it's it's it's very again, I have I'm I'm not trying to put myself on a pedestal like I am above taking money that I'm like, well, I, you know, I I've we've run an ad or two on this show.
01:06:07.720I'll just put it that way. Oh, you're not above taking money.
01:06:10.240as the listeners are sure aware we've run an ad or two on this podcast i'll just leave it at that
01:06:17.560but i think that they know that it's harder for us to say no if you're a big deal famous person
01:06:23.320these little a little voice acting gig here or there is not going to break the bank but for
01:06:28.320somebody like me i sort of do have to be counting every penny and counting every dollar what comes
01:06:32.760in and so i think he's exactly right that they're using this to manufacture consent and i think
01:06:40.220Anybody who makes anything, you might be thinking, who's going to ever give me money to do anything? You would be surprised because a lot of big people are turning down stuff like this because they just don't need it. And so if you are somebody, even with a small platform, I think it behooves us all to have a sense of what your values are and what money you will and will not take and what money is and is not worth it.
01:07:01.200And I think that the Black Romance Festival, I don't think that they meaningfully sat down and had that conversation.
01:07:09.960I think at this day and age, like anybody who makes anything really has to get clear on what their internal stance on.
01:07:16.820Nobody can make that decision for you, but you really have to have a big think about it and have that be your North Star as we go forward.
01:07:22.360Because I think that we're just going into a really tough climate for all of us, but particularly people who make things for creatives.
01:07:28.320Like, it's so wild to me that that is the, when we talk about the advancements in AI, that we're talking about, I'll work in a factory and AI will write the poetry, right? Like, I don't know how we got there, but that's where we're at.
01:07:44.260Yeah, but who's going to read that poetry, right?
01:07:49.680Like, it's such a weird time that we are in right now where the AI can write the poetry.
01:07:57.560And we just don't know exactly how it's all going to shake out.
01:08:04.680But I do think that ultimately people don't want to read poetry written by a piece of software.
01:08:15.140I know that you're setting me up for the next segment, but I have, right?
01:08:19.440Yeah, you know, I'm trying to set you up for the next segment.
01:08:24.880Well, before we move to the next, this is going to sound so dorky.
01:08:28.840There is a John Quincy Adams quote that I think really fits here.
01:08:32.300He wrote, I must study politics and war so that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children the right to study painting, poetry and music.
01:08:44.040And that's where I think where we're at. Right. Like, do we want a world where the painting, poetry and music we are outsourcing to technology like AI so that, you know, I don't think that we want that world.
01:08:57.580I think we want a world where the sacrifices that previous generations made so that we could have the benefit of studying these things and going into these kinds of creative and humanities based pursuits.
01:09:26.520Like, we're in this weird era where AI can kind of sort of do so many things, and there are companies and grifters and creators who are trying to use AI to do those things, just like throwing it against the wall to see what's going to stick.
01:09:52.520And we don't know what's going to stick, but they're trying everything.
01:09:56.520Yeah, I saw this like AI booster on Threads who had posted this clip.
01:10:02.540And it was like from the voice acting to the music to the cinematography, this was all created by AI.
01:10:09.200And he was like, this is blowing everybody away.1.00
01:10:11.140And I was like, it looks like fucking garbage.1.00
01:10:14.580Is it just I do think that it's something that Ed talks about a lot on Better Offline, where it's like there is a novelty to it, which I understand.0.92
01:10:24.280And it might even be technically impressive, but it looks like garbage.
01:10:28.880Would you want to, like, think about how you felt when you would watch The Sopranos or you watched a really dope movie or listen to a really good song.
01:10:37.260Do we, like, the reason why it's good is not just that somebody was able to make it quickly.
01:10:43.200It's because it speaks to us on a human level and on a human connecting to their humanity kind of level.
01:10:48.980I hate this sort of tech bro attitude that the only thing that matters about this kind of technology is whether you're able to create it quickly and cheaply, right?
01:10:59.380Like, who decided that those are the benchmarks for things that are good?