There Are No Girls on the Internet - Self Checkout Machines： Tearing our Community Apart!

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00:01:19.680 okay so mike as you know in our last news roundup you and i got a little bit heated about our

00:01:28.180 respective thoughts on so self-checkout kiosks in retail stores i was surprised i thought

00:01:33.840 certainly everybody hates these things as much as i do i was surprised to find that was not the case

00:01:39.160 you had a different position so my position was that those self-checkout kiosks in target walmart

00:01:45.360 grocery stores whatever they generally need to involve a human to work properly i don't think

00:01:51.520 they're that much more efficient or that much more fast um and i also didn't think the old

00:01:56.280 system of just human cashiers was that bad although i have come to sort of update that

00:02:01.100 position since hearing the feedback that listeners have so that is my position when i sat down to do

00:02:06.140 that episode i was surprised to find that you have a completely different position would you

00:02:11.580 like to articulate it sure it's not completely different because your first point that the

00:02:16.200 machines require a human to operate them we agree on that i think everyone agrees that a human still

00:02:22.200 needs to be involved even if it's a self-checkout however we disagree uh that i think that those

00:02:30.080 self-checkout machines uh or some sort of self-checkout system have a place in polite society

00:02:37.200 and that they are not inherently bad.

00:02:41.200 They are not destroying, you know, the fabric of what makes us who we are.

00:02:45.260 They are just a useful tool that can help us check out with our items.

00:02:51.960 So that is something that I want to get into today

00:02:55.000 because that episode was just, you know,

00:02:57.200 one story of a larger news roundup with other stories.

00:03:00.040 And so I wanted to revisit the issue

00:03:01.480 and highlight a few of the angles that we didn't have time to get into

00:03:04.800 And also hear from some of you listeners on your thoughts on self-checkouts versus human checkouts.

00:03:10.700 The thing that you just said about whether or not self-checkout is sort of tearing at the fabric of who we are as people, for whatever reason, I realized after doing some deep thought that I carry that as like a worldview.

00:03:24.740 And it's a worldview that I carried completely unchallenged until doing this episode.

00:03:28.700 Do you know what I mean?

00:03:29.340 I just automatically assumed, well, certainly this is a sign of society and decay.

00:03:34.920 And doing this episode was the first time that I really had to step back and challenge

00:03:38.760 why that was an automatic assumption on my part.

00:03:41.480 Yeah, I agree.

00:03:42.180 I also brought a lot of unchallenged assumptions to this conversation.

00:03:47.180 And I really appreciate the listeners who wrote in because some of them had some really

00:03:50.800 like thoughtful, insightful things to say that I hadn't thought about.

00:03:54.060 And I think you hadn't thought about.

00:03:55.460 And one of the other interesting things about this story is, like you said, it was just

00:03:58.860 one story of a news roundup like kind of a throwaway but like it turned out that you and i both had

00:04:04.940 pretty strong opinions about it and listeners did as well and i think this might be the segment

00:04:12.400 that has received like the most listener feedback of anything that we've ever done on this show

00:04:20.000 since launching it in 2020 which is surprising because it's such a i don't know i don't want

00:04:25.520 to say a non-issue but like you know at the presidential debate stage they're not talking

00:04:29.980 about self-checkout machines you know they should be maybe they should maybe they'd win some votes

00:04:35.320 but maybe it's a dangerous issue i don't know but it's not like life or death right there's something

00:04:40.900 sort of mundane about it but for some reason we all have a lot to say about it and i guess i've

00:04:47.260 been thinking about why that is you know is it the universe and universality of it like every person

00:04:53.140 can relate to. Everybody buys groceries. The question of which line do I get in is just one

00:04:57.600 of a thousand tiny decisions that we have to make every day that is like sort of exhausting and like

00:05:03.160 sort of low stakes, but also like choosing wrong could mean the difference of like 10 minutes of

00:05:09.580 standing in line, which is like the worst thing that could possibly happen to a person when

00:05:12.760 they're standing in line. So there's a lot here. I felt so strongly about this issue that I was

00:05:17.700 willing to pull on my boots and go out into the snow at 6 p.m. just to prove you wrong about my

00:05:23.120 my self-checkout feelings. And yeah, I completely agree with you. We've never gotten this

00:05:28.660 level of passion feedback from folks of all the episodes that we've done. So let's get into some

00:05:34.160 of these issues that we didn't have time for in that episode. So one big issue that I definitely

00:05:39.200 want to start with is the fact that I didn't know this. Self-checkout aisles are not generally very

00:05:45.120 accessible. I read a story about a woman who was visually impaired and she was trying to use the

00:05:50.080 self-checkout, couldn't see the screen well enough to check out, asked for help from the clerk,

00:05:54.360 and the clerk ended up just moving her to the human checkout line instead. And so it set up

00:05:59.320 this system where shoppers with disabilities basically could not use this system at all,

00:06:04.400 which became a lawsuit. The National Federation of the Blind sued Walmart, arguing the company

00:06:09.480 had violated the Americans with Disabilities Act by excluding blind people from using the service

00:06:13.800 in the way that it was intended, independently and privately. So a federal judge in Maryland

00:06:19.420 did end up ruling in Walmart's favor. Walmart maintained that its self-checkout system is

00:06:24.060 accessible because staff are trained to help. But if disabled customers have to ask for assistance,

00:06:29.240 not only will the transaction likely take longer, they also lose the option to keep their purchases

00:06:33.740 private. Privacy is a reason why someone might use self-checkout over a human checkout. So this

00:06:38.720 benefit of self-checkout, being able to keep whatever you're buying private, is just not

00:06:43.860 being offered to all shoppers equally. This I found so interesting. So the Food Institute spoke

00:06:49.300 to Nikki Shaw, who is the U.S. operations manager at Storm Interface, a company that creates

00:06:54.380 assistive technology products at Taco Bell and McDonald's. And Nikki said, having the option

00:06:59.840 to check out independently is unfortunately not available to all customers because of inaccessible

00:07:04.280 point of sale, which is like the machines that do the checking out. By denying some customers this

00:07:09.420 option, what message is this retailer sending to those customers? I think that's such a good point.

00:07:14.800 It just sounds like accessibility issues can be a big thing with self-checkout if not everybody can use them equally, which it sounds like is what's going on.

00:07:23.620 Yeah, that is a good point we're thinking about.

00:07:26.680 And, you know, I have to wonder if the companies who make these devices and systems were being more mindful of accessibility, would that lead to devices that work better for everyone, right?

00:07:40.900 That's often something that is seen in, I know at least like software design, that when

00:07:46.720 you really focus on making things accessible for a particular population that has specific

00:07:52.240 needs, the benefits are much broader than those people.

00:07:56.080 And you end up with a nicer, better functioning system for everyone.

00:07:59.740 Absolutely.

00:08:00.600 And also people with disabilities should be able to use them.

00:08:04.800 It's interesting to think about what that might look like.

00:08:06.660 Yeah, but I really agree with Nikki Shaw that are retailers saying that only certain shoppers get the benefit of privacy at self-checkout?

00:08:18.420 And I think that's a fair question to ask.

00:08:20.260 Like, they probably wouldn't say that because they would be admitting that they're violating the Americans with Disabilities Act.

00:08:27.020 But it's a fair question to ask.

00:08:28.860 Like, some shoppers get the ability to use self-checkout to privately check out and others just don't?

00:08:33.960 Is that what you're saying?

00:08:34.540 so we talked in that episode about how self-checkout might increase theft however we really didn't get

00:08:40.760 into kind of my biggest concern around theft like retailer theft is not an issue that deep that i

00:08:48.520 feel deeply strong about it doesn't like move me however when i was talking about theft i don't

00:08:53.200 think we got into it one of the things i wanted to talk about is the potential risk to shoppers

00:08:58.480 being accused of theft from using self-checkout even if they didn't actually steal anything or

00:09:03.760 mis-scanned or forgot to scan something legitimately by mistake. So the reason why I want to bring this

00:09:11.440 up, I'll say this, take this with a massive grain of salt because I did see it on TikTok and I wasn't

00:09:16.640 able to confirm everything this TikToker said. However, I did see this TikTok from Carrie

00:09:23.420 Jerrigan, who is a criminal defense attorney and a TikTok personality who warned that she doesn't

00:09:28.100 think that anybody should use self-checkout because it is very easy to be accused of retail

00:09:32.000 theft, even if you just made a mistake or didn't steal anything at all. Basically, she says that

00:09:37.880 because people who are intentionally stealing from self-checkout are really good at it, like

00:09:42.400 they've really sharp, like honed their tactics. And I guess it's difficult to catch at this point.

00:09:47.640 Because of that, retailers have no sympathy for anybody who makes just like a common mistake

00:09:54.160 with their self-checkout. Retailers are essentially focusing on people who maybe forgot to scan that

00:09:59.480 big thing of Cokes that you put under the shopping cart or whatever, or people who legitimately

00:10:04.620 didn't steal anything and then blaming those people for inventory loss. So this attorney says

00:10:09.900 that retailers will later check their inventory. And if they come up short, they will go after

00:10:14.000 people who made a legit transaction of that item. She says, so they will begin watching hours and

00:10:19.300 hours of video to see the last person who checked out with the Mario Lego set because they're two

00:10:23.900 Mario Lego sets short. And for some reason, they pinpoint that they think you did it.

00:10:28.500 And because of who these big box stores are, they usually have to present very little evidence to get an affidavit for a warrant signed, the charges that could land you up to a year in jail get filed, and then you are fighting for your life, trying to determine what day you were at Walmart and what all you bought.

00:10:43.640 I know that I immediately crumple my receipt up and put it in my pocket of my winter coat and then hang it up in storage forever.

00:10:51.860 So if somebody ever was like, can you provide a receipt for what you bought at Walmart two

00:10:57.240 months ago?

00:10:58.060 The answer would be absolutely not.

00:10:59.420 I would not be able to provide any proof of that transaction.

00:11:03.480 Yeah, definitely not.

00:11:04.700 I would think they were joking if they asked me.

00:11:07.400 Right.

00:11:07.780 And so that TikTok was probably the first time that I ever started thinking deeply about

00:11:14.180 self-checkout and sort of like what it means.

00:11:17.520 I don't have any data on this, but it wouldn't be a massive surprise to me to find that that kind of enforcement was not being equally applied.

00:11:27.060 I would have no trouble believing that some people are being looked at a little bit harder when it comes to that kind of thing.

00:11:32.760 I also should say, you know, in case folks don't know, like when you do check out with self-checkout, like you are being video recorded the entire time.

00:11:40.820 So, you know, they definitely can pull back video footage.

00:11:43.800 And I'm sure it probably wouldn't be hard for a Target or a Walmart to be like, oh, we think this person might have stolen something and then provide video evidence that doesn't really show anything to get that warrant signed.

00:11:56.000 Yeah, I mean, I definitely assume when I'm in Target that I'm being like videotaped all the time, especially at self-checkout.

00:12:02.560 I would be so shocked if they were to contact me like weeks or months after leaving.

00:12:09.880 That seems so surprising.

00:12:11.320 I'm curious how often that happens.

00:12:13.800 So I was too, you know, I just saw this one TikTok from a lawyer.

00:12:17.540 I did confirm she is a lawyer, but, you know, I was like, is this really happening?

00:12:21.260 So a deep Google search did bring up a few posts of people on legal message boards

00:12:26.500 claiming that they were accused of stealing from using self-checkout when they hadn't actually stole

00:12:31.200 and that they ended up needing to deal with like lawyers fees and like it took lots of time for them to sort it out.

00:12:37.340 So it does kind of seem like this might be an issue that's happening.

00:12:41.280 And ultimately, this kind of gets at one of my biggest beefs with self-checkout.

00:12:45.640 The implication that me as the shopper should be the one who is tasked with its responsibility

00:12:51.160 in making sure that everything is scanned correctly and like I'm paying the amount I'm supposed to pay. 0.98

00:12:55.840 Like, I know that people like to shit on retail employees, but I have been a retail employee. 0.97

00:13:01.060 It is important work. Those jobs exist for a reason. 0.99

00:13:04.080 And so, like, I don't know that we should be so quick to just outsource those jobs

00:13:07.920 to the very same people that we like can't even trust to put their shopping carts away

00:13:12.340 consistently when they go grocery shopping and just trust that this that the populace is going

00:13:18.000 to be able to do this correctly like i'm not trained in it i might be distracted i'm not going

00:13:22.640 in thinking you know listening carefully to these beeps and what actually gets beeped and put in the

00:13:28.200 bag that is a that is something that is that if i do incorrectly i could wind up with legal fees

00:13:34.020 and court costs or whatever that does not sound like a great setup to me yeah uh it doesn't but

00:13:40.780 you know again i i am curious how many cases there are like this where someone legitimately

00:13:46.440 made some sort of mistake or error where they thought they had paid for a thing but they didn't

00:13:51.440 pay for it and then they end up like getting charged with theft maybe it maybe it is happening

00:13:58.220 a lot i don't know but i guess a lot of this this debate again circles back in the most low stakes

00:14:03.820 way possible to like what kind of society do we want to live in and it doesn't seem completely

00:14:11.620 far-fetched to me that like adult shoppers should understand that like you have to pay for the

00:14:19.540 things that you want to take out of the store and like operate this machine in a way that makes that

00:14:25.760 how it goes down right like it's yeah i maybe i haven't like had a training in this software

00:14:30.600 But, like, at the Giant, I've used those self-checkouts, like, hundreds if not thousands of times.

00:14:37.420 And, like, any other piece of software, yeah, it takes a little bit of, like, experience to try to figure out how to work it.

00:14:45.760 But, you know, it's achievable.

00:14:48.620 I don't want this to devolve into another argument.

00:14:50.940 I know, I know.

00:14:51.980 I'm holding back.

00:14:54.480 Every statement is an opportunity to get into it.

00:14:57.580 Well, I agree with you on the surface, right? That like, yeah, people, you shouldn't just go into Target and expect to just walk out with stuff that you haven't paid for.

00:15:07.300 Although like, do I really, am I really crying? Target has plenty of money. Am I really like crying tears for Target?

00:15:12.320 Right. It's not, it's not like we're talking about that CVS in Columbia Heights.

00:15:16.220 That's right. The CVS where everything's free.

00:15:19.500 Yeah. Just take what you want. Everything's free.

00:15:21.180 um but like i just think that efficiently checking out you do have to bring a level of awareness

00:15:31.180 that i don't always have when i go into a target because i'm not thinking of going into work and

00:15:36.340 so like if you're not if i i often when i shop i'm listening to music or podcasts in my headphones

00:15:41.680 i'm not necessarily listening for the beep beep beep of every item it is conceivable that you

00:15:47.700 could put something in your bag and not hear the beep. If you're like a new parent who hasn't had

00:15:53.000 any sleep and you're distracted and your phone's going off and the kid is crying, like, I don't

00:15:58.220 know that this is a widespread thing, but I do think there are scenarios where perhaps that is

00:16:03.620 a burden that a consumer who is not at work should not have to shoulder when they go in to like pick

00:16:11.380 up some items at Target. Particularly if that burden could wind up with you having legitimate

00:16:16.900 legal trouble over it yeah these are two separate issues both worthy of debate and discussion you

00:16:23.280 know is it ethical to ask shoppers to scan their own items and separately should people be

00:16:32.380 prosecuted when they make legit mistakes seems like clearly the answer that second question is

00:16:36.900 no oh yeah a thousand percent so do you remember andy rooney all the time every day i miss him so

00:16:44.660 much. So for people who don't know who Andy Rooney is, God rest his soul. Andy Rooney used to be on

00:16:49.700 60 Minutes. He had a segment that was literally just him complaining for 20 minutes. I will never

00:16:55.540 forget a segment where he just walks around a grocery store and picks up fruits that he doesn't

00:17:00.360 like and is like, cantaloupes, who needs them? And meanwhile, I'm riveted. I'm like, oh, this is

00:17:05.960 great TV. But there is a piece in the Washington Post that could have been written by the spirit

00:17:12.080 of Andy Rooney. It is like one of those style pieces called, Dear Grocery Store Owners, I Don't

00:17:17.900 Work For You. The whole thing is snarky as hell, but this is the thing I wanted to sort of tease

00:17:22.220 out. The piece reads, Dear Grocery Store Owners, have you seen me in the break room? No. There's

00:17:27.760 a reason. I don't work for you. I don't want to work for you. I was bad at it as a middle schooler

00:17:32.180 and I'm worse now. And then he goes on to say, A lot of stores position a receipt checker to see

00:17:38.140 whether people actually paid for all the stuff they have. Wait a second, you set up this system.

00:17:43.240 You made us do all of this. So now that we've slogged our way through our temp job with zero

00:17:47.620 training, you're going to audit us? And I think that that kind of gets at something where nobody

00:17:53.460 asked your average consumer whether or not this was a dynamic they wanted to do. I guess you have

00:17:58.220 the choice when you get into the self-checkout line or the human line. Although at our target,

00:18:04.140 oftentimes, if you go in there late at night, there is no human option. It's just self-checkout.

00:18:08.140 You and I both know this to be true, no?

00:18:10.380 I don't know what's going on with the human cashier lines at that target.

00:18:13.620 They are a checkout option of last resort for me.

00:18:16.780 So you're like, I would never, rarely am I dealing with the human line at that specific target.

00:18:21.680 Unless something has gone wrong.

00:18:23.260 Absolutely.

00:18:24.300 But that thing that happens after you do self-checkout at some big box retailers,

00:18:29.740 where then you have to show them your receipt and they have to check to see,

00:18:32.980 and maybe they have to put like a little marker thing on it.

00:18:35.040 That has been a source of consternation for the public for a while.

00:18:38.140 um you've probably seen videos of people like refusing to show their receipt apparently from

00:18:43.280 what i have read you know i'm no lawyer this is not legal advice but you don't actually have to

00:18:47.420 stop and have that interaction with with the person who is like can i see your receipt i think

00:18:51.640 that the fact that that is a moment of frustration for so many people i think gets at what this

00:18:57.840 washington post piece is talking about that people feel like well you asked me to scan out my stuff

00:19:02.820 and now you don't even trust me to do it like either you trust me or you don't this is one spot

00:19:06.660 where you and I see eye to eye because I hate that you know I've a I hate people like stopping

00:19:16.300 me and you know having this interaction with a security person who is acting like a cop even

00:19:23.660 though they're not I hate that and then they want me to like take all my stuff out of my bag I take

00:19:29.440 a lot of care when I pack my bags and when I'm like done with the checkout and carrying my fully

00:19:34.420 packed bags, I'm like

00:19:36.440 ready to carry them home. I'm not

00:19:38.440 ready to impromptu

00:19:40.160 take all the contents out and show them

00:19:42.460 to some security

00:19:44.380 goon to check me.

00:19:46.520 So I agree with you there.

00:19:48.220 I don't understand why they can't be doing that checking with

00:19:50.340 all of the cameras that they've got

00:19:51.900 showing me from like five different angles

00:19:54.460 while I'm checking out. Like if they

00:19:56.160 don't see me stealing something when

00:19:58.440 you know, when I'm actually

00:20:00.320 doing it, why just do like these random

00:20:02.560 checks down the line? Don't like it.

00:20:04.420 So let's talk about that because retail chains are investing a lot of money on like very serious, kind of creepy surveillance technology.

00:20:13.800 And so it does seem to with it, if you have all of this technology to then be like, and then you have to go through this little indignity of showing me your receipt and opening your bag on top of it.

00:20:22.440 It does seem a little much. So Walmart uses what internally they call the missed scan detection, which they say helps detect when an item lands in a shopping bag without being scanned.

00:20:33.280 And so they're basically these AI-powered visual scanners and cameras that are at both the self-checkout register and the registers run by the store cashiers.

00:20:41.960 There was at least at some point use of facial recognition technology in Walmart.

00:20:47.180 In 2022, Walmart faced a lawsuit that was seeking class action status, alleging that Walmart violated Illinois' Biometric Privacy Act by improperly using cameras and advanced video surveillance systems, as well as software and databases provided by the facial recognition company Clearview AI.

00:21:05.440 So Walmart's spokesperson says that they were just testing out facial recognition technology, that they weren't actually like rolling it out in the stores.

00:21:13.380 But it does sound like all parties agree that this facial recognition technology was being used.

00:21:19.020 We've already done so many episodes on why that technology is janky, faulty, racist, sexist.

00:21:24.100 Like, it just don't work, really, is what it is.

00:21:26.240 And so if that's the technology that you're kind of counting on or flirting with to deter theft, it really presents a whole host of issues because it's really just not really reliable.

00:21:38.900 Yeah, facial recognition, as we've talked about in a bunch of episodes, is like bad news reinforces a lot of bad disparities, certainly in this context when it's, you know, one step away from somebody being charged with a crime.

00:21:55.660 Yeah, and, you know, the point that it's a lot of money invested in these systems, yeah, can't argue with that.

00:22:03.200 And that's sort of one of my questions slash theories is that it just sounds like a lot of investment in surveillance technology. And I feel like if this is the level of surveillance technology that you need to make self-checkout work, then there is a problem.

00:22:20.460 So first of all, logistically, I cannot imagine that the costs of investing in that kind of technology apparatus is not being passed down to the consumer in some way. I don't have any inside knowledge of that. I have to assume that's the case.

00:22:34.300 You know how it's now becoming clear how much retailers lied about retail theft and how much

00:22:41.400 it was hurting their stores? And I think that they did that to justify really cracking down

00:22:46.460 on surveillance, really making the shopping experience worse for consumers and being like,

00:22:51.740 well, it's not our fault, it's crime. I wonder if there's some aspect of that going on here.

00:22:56.200 Part of me wonders if, for whatever reason, Walmart really wants to be investing in this

00:23:02.000 kind of surveillance technology. And they're using self-checkout as a way to justify that.

00:23:08.760 It's like, oh, well, we have self-checkout now. That increases theft. Ergo, we have to have this

00:23:13.840 very involved surveillance technology in all of our stores. I just wonder because it's such a huge

00:23:21.960 investment in very serious surveillance technology that I don't know how it makes sense to have it

00:23:26.620 otherwise. Yeah, that's a really interesting thought. We were doing some research for this

00:23:33.240 follow-up episode here. One of the things I came across was somebody who had worked in software

00:23:42.080 building a bunch of this type of surveillance stuff that grocery stores, big box retailers

00:23:50.200 could use to have like scanners and ai trackers following people around in the store to try to

00:23:58.820 like reduce theft and they made the exact same point this was a person who had built those

00:24:03.600 technologies who said that like all of them didn't work were janky and were extremely expensive and

00:24:10.560 not justified by uh the cost like not according to them it was not even close so the idea that

00:24:17.320 the reason retailers are pushing for this stuff is to justify increased surveillance. We see

00:24:23.240 examples all the time of people in positions of power making decisions that cost them money

00:24:30.800 just so they can like maintain control, right? Like just last week, we were talking about

00:24:35.800 Anna Wintour shuttering Pitchfork, even though it was profitable, because there was like rumblings

00:24:41.480 of unionization, right? 0.96

00:24:43.060 Like killing a powerful, well-liked brand

00:24:46.640 just to like maintain that control.

00:24:48.560 And so spending a bunch of money

00:24:50.160 on surveillance equipment,

00:24:52.080 even though it doesn't pay back in money,

00:24:54.760 the owner gets to like feel that level of control.

00:25:00.100 Let's take a quick break.

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00:26:58.560 something about self-checkout automatically to me feels like a dystopian surveillance

00:27:06.880 situation where we're getting away from what makes us humans and relying more on technology

00:27:13.660 and like part of that for me was the assumption that self-checkouts are making us lonelier or

00:27:19.800 has something to do with the fraying threads of society and humanity. That was an assumption that

00:27:26.260 I made not based on any kind of facts or research or reading that I'd done about it. It just, to me,

00:27:31.740 stood to reason that if we are in a loneliness epidemic, especially for older folks, which

00:27:37.080 the Surgeon General released a report about this, the threat of social isolation recently,

00:27:41.060 and it is a damning report. If that is happening, then certainly the rise of technology like

00:27:46.000 self-checkouts is making it worse. So is that actually the case? Well, you tell me. I read

00:27:51.540 this report in the Los Angeles Times that suggests the U.S. is in the middle of this loneliness and

00:27:56.460 isolation epidemic and that self-checkouts are actually worse in the situation. The Times report

00:28:01.480 talks about the value of warm, low-stakes relationships like that between a shopper

00:28:06.480 and a cashier, especially for older people. They spoke to University of Michigan psychology

00:28:11.040 professor Tony Antonucci, who said that these kinds of connections are a critical tool for

00:28:16.080 maintaining emotional well-being later in life as social circles shrink. So some supermarkets have

00:28:21.200 actually taken intentional steps to use the shopping experience at their store to combat

00:28:26.020 loneliness through chatty lines. Jumbo, a grocery store chain in the Netherlands, has

00:28:31.020 Hutskasa, or the chatty checkout line, for shoppers who are not in a hurry and actually

00:28:36.140 want to have a conversation with the clerk. Jumbo's chief commercial officer explained to

00:28:40.340 a conversation saying, many people, especially the elderly, sometimes feel lonely. As a family

00:28:45.380 business and supermarket chain, we're the heart of society. Our shops are an important meeting

00:28:50.420 place for many people, and we want to play a role in identifying and reducing loneliness.

00:28:54.260 So the first of one of these lanes was so successful that the family-owned company

00:28:58.200 started rolling out these chatty, slow checkout lanes in 200 of its stores. Not only were customers

00:29:03.820 really responding positively to it, but this situation also apparently appealed to the

00:29:09.400 employees. They are trained to recognize signs of loneliness and come up with local initiatives to

00:29:14.260 combat social isolation. The lanes weren't just big with older folks, but all shoppers of all

00:29:19.220 ages seem to really get a kick out of them. So this is nice. And it sounds like it's working

00:29:23.560 and it sounds like it's a needed thing. And I really like hats off to Jumbo for starting

00:29:28.360 this initiative. But I just don't know if a retail cashier should be shouldering the burden

00:29:35.140 of staving off what sounds like a real crisis of loneliness for people. In this Surgeon General's

00:29:42.660 report on loneliness that I mentioned, the Surgeon General lays out this like six-point plan for

00:29:47.840 combating loneliness. And it's things like investing more in volunteer organizations or

00:29:51.940 religious groups or policies around public transit or education or physical spaces like parks and

00:29:58.020 green spaces and libraries. So like more robust public infrastructure. Yes, I love public

00:30:03.540 infrastructure. However, here in the US, I don't think that like a polite, chatty clerk can really

00:30:09.960 take the place of meaningful investment in these kinds of social goods. Like I almost feel like I

00:30:14.780 like what they're doing with these chatty lanes and it does seem like it's helping. So I don't

00:30:19.500 want to make it seem like I'm poo-pooing that. But I think that it's a lot to ask of a retail

00:30:25.360 cashier who is like their job is to ring you up and be polite. I don't know that we should be

00:30:30.440 shouldering those folks with this burden of easing something that clearly is related to a fraying

00:30:36.340 social goods infrastructure. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about this. One of them is that

00:30:41.620 that jumbo chain sounds really cool. I would love to go check out one of their chatty lines. Next

00:30:47.240 time I'm in the Netherlands, whenever that might happen, I'm definitely going to do it. It sounds

00:30:50.240 like a really nice thing that that grocery store chain has chosen to do for its community. That

00:30:56.560 feels like the sort of i don't know jimmy dean movie feel good capitalism story that if only

00:31:03.700 the world were more like that things would be a lot better maybe it is like that in the netherlands

00:31:07.400 i don't know but it's not like that here in the u.s right like i think there are a lot of

00:31:13.160 differences for one thing those cashiers in the netherlands they have subsidized health care

00:31:18.120 they have just a bunch of other social safety net things they probably have a much higher salary i

00:31:25.140 have to assume than their counterparts here in the U S I was looking into what cashiers make in

00:31:32.720 the U S and like, you know, I used to work hourly wage jobs, uh, but it's been a while and people

00:31:42.820 are making $10 an hour, right? Like that was, that's just like not a lot of money. And then

00:31:48.060 to expect those people to shoulder this burden, like you were talking about of chatting with

00:31:54.500 strangers in making elderly folks feel connected like those are really virtuous things to do

00:32:00.860 but for somebody who's working like three jobs 60 hours a week to like scrape by that feels like

00:32:07.900 it's really asking a lot and that context of what is the experience like for that employee that

00:32:15.300 cashier i feel gets left out of a lot of these arguments that we saw about like oh self checkouts

00:32:23.400 are making us all isolated.

00:32:25.840 We should have more friendly chit-chats

00:32:28.660 with the cashier who's checking us out.

00:32:30.320 You know, I've definitely had experiences in my life

00:32:32.100 where I had a nice, warm connection

00:32:35.300 with a cashier who was checking me out.

00:32:37.620 But just as often, I've had the experience of like,

00:32:41.260 wow, this person is really tired

00:32:43.340 and they're not giving me the time of day

00:32:46.560 and I'm not going to take it personally,

00:32:49.080 but I'm also not getting a lot of warm fuzzies

00:32:51.180 out of this interaction.

00:32:52.080 I'm just going to get my things and get out of here.

00:32:53.940 Well, that's another thing is that I have definitely, with my own eyes, witnessed retail

00:33:00.000 clerks take the time to really connect with people who are shopping in a way that I'm

00:33:06.340 like amazed by.

00:33:08.700 And so I don't want to make it seem like there are no retail cashiers who are doing that

00:33:13.200 because I know that there are. 0.77

00:33:15.300 My mom is a big shopper.

00:33:17.340 And I know that a lot of times that shopping is being done out of a place of wanting a warm connection.

00:33:24.440 And so she's clearly getting a warm connection and that's what she's going in for.

00:33:27.720 So it's really not about the item that she's buying.

00:33:29.820 But like you said, if you're a retail cashier, you probably have your own struggles with loneliness.

00:33:34.180 And so like, are we just like passing down this burden from cashier to cashier to cashier to cashier?

00:33:38.900 And, you know, if we really as a country cared about this loneliness epidemic,

00:33:43.520 which it seems like we're saying that we do because the Surgeon General put out a report on it,

00:33:47.340 It's clear what we should be putting our investment and energy toward, right?

00:33:51.560 Public good and social good stuff like parks and libraries and community centers and all of that.

00:33:56.860 Like, it just feels like under capitalism, it is like, well, we should have parks and libraries for older folks.

00:34:04.000 Best we can do is an underpaid barista who is nice to them.

00:34:06.980 Like, that's all we got to offer.

00:34:08.520 And it's just so sad.

00:34:09.400 Like, it doesn't have to be that way, but that's how it feels to me.

00:34:13.740 Yeah, an underpaid barista and half a million dollars in surveillance technology.

00:34:18.620 Yes. Will that help?

00:34:21.240 Yeah, like what if we invested in the barista?

00:34:23.980 And this also bumps up around this like popping online discourse around chatting and retail employees.

00:34:32.180 I'm chatty by nature. I have a podcast. So like I love to chat somebody up.

00:34:35.600 And if you if you if we're having a face to face, I'm asking how your day was.

00:34:40.320 i want some details when we were in berlin that time they are a less chatty people and i asked

00:34:47.980 that barista how his day was going what a mistake he looked at me like i had just insulted his mom

00:34:55.620 god yeah they they really value efficiency over there and i loved it i felt like by the end of

00:35:03.260 the trip i finally had it down where i could like perfectly execute telling the barista my order

00:35:09.320 receiving it, paying and leaving in the most efficient way possible. And in that moment,

00:35:15.120 I felt like a small piece of pride, I guess, for like making it work in the German retail

00:35:22.780 context. So it does sound like, you know, we're talking about how chatting with the retail clerk

00:35:29.720 is good for folks who are experiencing social isolation, but it does sound like not everybody

00:35:34.060 wants to have a chat with retail clerks. Recently, writer Bailey Hurd, who also worked as a server,

00:35:39.320 tweeted sorry if this is rude or whatever but i really hate people who refuse to endure even the

00:35:44.440 tiniest bits of small talk can't tell you how many times i've walked up to a table and said

00:35:48.380 how are you doing today only to be met with complete silence and a blank stare and that's

00:35:53.760 i mean like it kind of gets into a thing of like people are just trying to do their job and

00:35:58.060 certainly you know you get from corporate or whatever like oh you're you're meant to be

00:36:01.960 chatty in this way or chatty in that way i used to work for a when i was in college i worked for

00:36:06.100 a clothing retailer i don't want to say which one because i i i mean i was like very young but i

00:36:10.260 quit in a very unprofessional way um but when they they for whatever reason they gave us this

00:36:16.660 guidance that when you were letting somebody into a dressing room to try on a bra or underwear or

00:36:22.460 camisole like some sort of intimate item they wanted you to share a secret with them and so

00:36:28.280 that was like the guidance that we got and so you you were you were meant to be like oh like an

00:36:33.360 example they gave was oh you're you're trying on this bra i love that bra i'm wearing it right now

00:36:39.100 like that would be the kind of like secret they wanted you to share what this is wild

00:36:44.160 share a secret i always wondered if somebody was like oh let me you want to need a fitting room um

00:36:50.980 yeah here you go you know i once hit a guy while i was driving and i just kept going i didn't even

00:36:56.660 stuff and we enjoy your items so what i'm saying is like retail clerks and people who are working

00:37:04.320 in the service industry they're like often given guidance from corporate to like be chatting in a

00:37:09.440 specific way i don't know i do feel like we have this situation where people are complaining about

00:37:14.300 this and these people are just trying to do their jobs i guess is what i'm saying like at trader

00:37:18.460 joe's which as far as i know trader joe's does not do self-checkout like none of the trader joe's

00:37:23.100 I've ever been who has had self-checkout.

00:37:25.460 I was thinking about them.

00:37:26.960 I think Trader Joe's is like the anti-self-checkout.

00:37:29.760 Yes.

00:37:30.420 And they actually, it sounds like maybe they want their cashiers to be like a little more

00:37:34.700 chatty with you than other places.

00:37:36.380 I saw this TikTok that I hated where somebody was bemoaning the fact that to shop at Trader

00:37:41.740 Joe's, they feel like they have to do emotional labor of chatting with the cashier to buy

00:37:46.360 their groceries.

00:37:47.020 But here's the thing.

00:37:47.860 if you are someone who is shopping, you're not the one doing emotional labor in that situation.

00:37:53.420 The person who is required by corporate or their boss to be polite and chatty with you,

00:37:58.180 even if they don't feel like it, to ring you up, that is the person doing emotional labor,

00:38:02.420 not you. You're not doing that. All of this to say, I think that the question of what we get

00:38:08.020 and what we lose through the chattiness and politeness of a retail person is a whole separate

00:38:14.200 thing, when technology comes into the conversation, it was easy for me to assume, like, automatically

00:38:19.820 when you're doing self-checkout, you're losing this human connection and that's bad.

00:38:24.060 But from doing this research, I do think that it's a little more complex than that.

00:38:28.100 Yeah, it is.

00:38:29.380 Should we get into the listener feedback?

00:38:33.020 Let's do it.

00:38:33.960 All right.

00:38:34.240 Well, I'll just start reading then.

00:38:36.080 So this one came from... 0.97

00:38:39.140 Hey, Bridget here.

00:38:41.180 Just an FYI that this listener wanted to be anonymous, so we are bleeping that listener's name.

00:38:46.700 In case you're wondering why there are bleeps, that's why.

00:38:49.840 Hi, Mike and Bridget.

00:38:50.960 Wow, this issue just evokes strong feelings.

00:38:53.400 I've never felt the desire to comment on something before, but self-checkouts is what brings me to comment.

00:38:58.260 I'd be curious to see if other small things like this get more comments.

00:39:01.500 I like self-checkouts mostly because I get to do my own bagging.

00:39:05.240 Cashiers and baggers aren't paid enough to make sure my bread doesn't get squished.

00:39:09.120 My favorite method is what Meijer does.

00:39:12.660 That's a brand in the Midwest, a store.

00:39:15.040 They have a phone app where I can scan and bag as I grab things.

00:39:18.520 Then I just zip through the payment.

00:39:20.120 It would be even better if I could pay through the app,

00:39:22.060 but alas, they probably won't do that because of shoplifting.

00:39:25.180 Disclaimer, I think shoplifting is a consequence of poverty,

00:39:28.060 and don't blame shoplifters.

00:39:29.400 Do what you got to do.

00:39:30.420 I'm a stickler for data interpretation,

00:39:31.940 so I have some thoughts about the stats from the last episode.

00:39:35.280 67% of people have experienced a failure at self-checkouts.

00:39:38.620 What is the percentage failure for human checkouts?

00:39:41.060 Also, 67% represents the percentage of people who have experienced an event.

00:39:45.360 What's the failure rate per transaction?

00:39:47.520 Given that a majority of people like self-checkouts,

00:39:49.700 I would posit that failure rate per transaction is low.

00:39:53.220 Speculation.

00:39:54.100 I think the part that fails the most is the weight sensor

00:39:56.400 that is making sure you bag items.

00:39:58.840 The stores that I shop at don't use this sensor,

00:40:01.040 and it's much more smooth.

00:40:02.540 I don't know why they care.

00:40:03.800 You've already scanned the item, so you can't steal it.

00:40:06.280 That's such a good point.

00:40:07.720 It is a good point.

00:40:08.540 Yeah, right. You've already scanned it. You can't steal it.

00:40:11.240 So as a data practitioner, are you a data scientist or a data practitioner?

00:40:15.440 Because this is like, I know Mike, as somebody who works with data, you probably were like, great questions.

00:40:20.800 Thank you for seeing the data like I do, which is precisely.

00:40:24.120 Yeah, that's right. I mean, is, you know, quite reasonably focused on like, what is the denominator here?

00:40:29.460 What's the failure rate per transaction?

00:40:31.200 I think I made, you know, a similar point last time that 67% of people said they've experienced a failure with self-checkout.

00:40:38.540 I've experienced a failure with, like, everything.

00:40:40.940 My computer, my phone, my car, my relationship, my cat.

00:40:44.800 Like, everything fails at some point or another, right?

00:40:47.100 But I'm not going to throw it out.

00:40:48.800 You are absolutely correct.

00:40:50.760 It is the little things that I think people feel the most strongly and passionately about.

00:40:55.940 So if folks are listening, if you're like, oh, here's another little tech thing that we should talk about in society that we all deal with.

00:41:02.540 And what are your thoughts on it?

00:41:03.960 That would be a great segment.

00:41:05.440 So if folks have those, please write in.

00:41:06.940 I want to hear them.

00:41:07.660 who knew that these little things would be such a such a sticking point for folks yeah it's also

00:41:13.840 satisfying to talk about because i do have strong feelings but i don't have like identity connected

00:41:19.520 to it so it feels possible to talk about them and like hear new perspectives and change my mind

00:41:25.940 in a way that doesn't it doesn't always feel that way about some other issues where there's

00:41:30.880 disagreement so concludes it's the small things isn't it it sure is okay so the next email is from

00:41:39.720 phil jones hi bridget i've got a lot to say on this subject but first and foremost you're right 0.72

00:41:44.640 fuck those machines for whatever added context this might provide i live in gatineau quebec on 0.98

00:41:50.480 the border with ottawa ontario the nation's capital my general stance is that those machines 1.00

00:41:54.720 are worse for everyone, as you stated.

00:41:57.020 Then we got four bulleted items here.

00:42:00.000 Number one, it slows the customer down

00:42:02.320 as they now have to operate the checkout,

00:42:04.080 a specialized job people have long been hired and trained for.

00:42:07.300 There are quirks to the machine

00:42:08.460 that only a seasoned operator knows how to maneuver around.

00:42:11.080 There are special items that need to be dealt with

00:42:13.080 differently than standard barcode items.

00:42:15.000 It's a mess.

00:42:16.360 Number two, it takes away a job from cashiers

00:42:18.960 who now stand around and monitor a bank of machines

00:42:21.420 that took their job.

00:42:22.300 The cashier was promoted to managing a row of insulting facsimiles of their former role.

00:42:27.280 Number three, it removes the bag or job entirely, as that's now on the customer.

00:42:32.760 Number four, it makes scamming the store that much easier, so it's worse for loss prevention.

00:42:37.500 The classic steak for the price of bananas scam.

00:42:40.400 Ultimately, the machines continue to degrade interpersonal connections and community.

00:42:45.000 We might see the same cashiers every week at our local grocery store or pharmacy,

00:42:48.900 and, whether we like them or not, recognize that we're part of the same world

00:42:52.580 and need to get along to meet our own needs.

00:42:55.220 These machines put yet another barrier between us and our fellow humans.

00:42:58.920 So let's take a break there because Phil has laid out a lot for us.

00:43:04.680 More after a quick break.

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00:43:36.420 iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

00:43:38.860 So whatever your customers listen to,

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00:43:56.720 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:44:02.580 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:44:08.980 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:44:12.460 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything.

00:44:21.040 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

00:44:25.300 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:44:29.860 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:44:37.280 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

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00:44:44.780 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:44:48.380 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:45:02.120 Let's get right back into it.

00:45:05.080 First of all, Phil, keep emailing me because you can write an email.

00:45:09.420 The way that this was so eloquently laid out and bulleted, this is the kind of email that I really appreciate. Please keep emailing me. Phil's email kind of gets at that tension that I feel, right? That it does feel like, for whatever reason, self-checkout is indicative of some kind of a fraying of a social fabric.

00:45:28.320 That, you know, like one of the concepts I was reading about when I was preparing for this episode is this concept of a frictionless society, that it's automatically better if you're not having to deal with the friction that sometimes comes with navigating another human, that you order your groceries online and do curbside pickup.

00:45:46.380 You order Uber Eats and they leave it at your door. You don't even have to like talk to them.

00:45:50.840 And questioning the assumption that this is actually a better, more cohesive society,

00:45:55.320 because the point of being in a society is navigating other humans. And sometimes we don't

00:45:59.060 like it, but like that society, I think that Phil's email really, really gets at the tension

00:46:04.700 that I feel around that of like, well, is this better? Is a society where I'm dealing with

00:46:09.840 humans and navigating the intricacies of that daily, is that automatically a better society

00:46:15.740 or a more efficient society yeah i think phil definitely has a very dystopian view of like the

00:46:22.100 impact of these machines like we're all deep in the sub-basement of metropolis glumly scanning

00:46:27.600 our items they are good questions and it's if nothing else this is useful for us to like step

00:46:33.180 back and think about like what does it mean to be connected to familiar strangers in our community

00:46:40.260 and forced transactions in the checkout lane with the cashier,

00:46:45.880 what is the value of those?

00:46:47.680 Like, maybe they're both good and bad? 0.99

00:46:49.840 So that was Phil's dystopian take on why those machines should be fucked. 0.98

00:46:56.920 However, Phil goes on to list a few scenarios where he does use the machines. 0.98

00:47:03.800 Another three points.

00:47:05.480 Number one, at Shoppers Drugmark slash Pharma Pricks.

00:47:10.260 Think CVS. Depending on the location, there's usually one actual cashier in a bank of machines.

00:47:16.860 If I'm only ever buying a couple of things, it is more discreet for the more personal purchases.

00:47:22.700 And the one I frequent the most, there is usually, like uncannily often, an elderly person buying multiple six packs of Pepsi bottles. 0.93

00:47:31.260 There's the Quebec context for you. 0.85

00:47:32.640 I didn't know they drank a lot of Pepsi in Quebec.

00:47:35.880 It's just faster to use the machines.

00:47:37.940 That's the second bulleted item from Phil.

00:47:41.200 At Costco, I'm basically only ever buying a handful of things that are cheaper and used at scale.

00:47:45.920 I live with my partner, no kids.

00:47:47.480 We don't need most things in bulk.

00:47:49.320 Waiting in a 10-person long line with overflowing jumbo-sized carts is entirely unnecessary.

00:47:55.040 At Costco, the machines are basically the express line.

00:47:58.020 It's overseen by as many as four people for six machines.

00:48:01.100 There are at least a dozen cashier lines with both a cashier and a bagger.

00:48:04.220 No jobs are being lost here.

00:48:05.440 This is possibly the ideal situation for the machines.

00:48:08.380 So I don't have a Costco membership.

00:48:10.240 I would die of happiness to have one.

00:48:12.920 Phil is just confirming my widely held belief that Costco is my version of heaven.

00:48:18.640 And I want to go there.

00:48:20.500 Yeah.

00:48:20.880 And I think this also re-emphasizes the connection between how the workers are treated and the

00:48:29.600 customer experience that people get to have when they go to this store, right?

00:48:33.680 Like we talked about that Dutch store where, because it's in the Netherlands, you know, there is a social safety net, uh, they're providing a really good experience for the customers and the management is not trying to nickel and dime every like minute and action of the employee's time.

00:48:51.480 Uh, instead they're allowing the employees to like, and not just allowing, but encouraging and facilitating the employees to spend some time like caring for the customers.

00:49:01.700 Costco is another company that treats its workers pretty well. And then at the other end of the spectrum, we have like Dollar General, which is notorious for treating its workers about as bad as you can legally treat a person.

00:49:14.480 And they were just like all in for the self-checkout where they would have, you know, one or two people in the store managing the entire store, all aspects of the operations from like managing to stocking the shelves, receiving deliveries, to mopping the floors, to fixing the self-checkout machines when they invariably like need to be cleared.

00:49:33.600 These things are super related.

00:49:35.080 Yeah, I do think there is definitely some connection between how the, like, I mean, it's just decisions being made at the corporate level trickling down to the experience that us, both as humans who are shopping and humans who are checking people out, are having.

00:49:52.500 Yeah, like, what is valued?

00:49:54.600 Phil goes on, I've experienced failure at any and all stores I've used the machines at.

00:49:58.740 Grocery stores are particularly bad because of the complex set of items.

00:50:01.920 I think the machines are optimal at five or fewer barcoded items.

00:50:06.660 Beyond that, a trained human is far more efficient.

00:50:09.600 Checking out a grocery store is a two-person operation.

00:50:13.040 That's why there are baggers, at suburban stores at least,

00:50:15.580 that find they're mercifully absent in urban stores.

00:50:18.260 I prefer to bag my own groceries, but I can only do that efficiently

00:50:20.920 because someone else is handling the entirely separate process

00:50:23.820 of scanning items and handling exceptions.

00:50:26.340 The cashier and I are a team.

00:50:27.980 I used to work in the retail tech space, again this is Phil,

00:50:30.340 as part of an internal communication SaaS company.

00:50:33.980 When researching integrating advanced retail hardware,

00:50:37.120 I found a trove of dystopian tracking devices,

00:50:39.680 from camera setups to heat map where customers stop in a store

00:50:42.640 for optimizing product positioning,

00:50:44.600 to tracking MAC addresses of people on the street for pinpoint advertising,

00:50:48.320 to shelves with pressure sensors to present video advertisements. 0.98

00:50:51.600 Shit that's not even worth implementing or having developed in the first place 0.99

00:50:54.560 as the cost is so much higher than the return. 0.99

00:50:57.080 Automated checkout machines are the one ubiquitous piece

00:50:59.280 that made it to the mainstream.

00:51:00.920 The most frictionless, right?

00:51:02.980 The most frictionless version of these is indeed the most dystopian, the Amazon Go model,

00:51:07.560 where you're individually tracked throughout the store and are charged for all the items

00:51:10.740 once you leave the store.

00:51:12.260 Easy, but nightmarishly removed from human interaction and giving over so much personal

00:51:16.900 data to Amazon.

00:51:18.140 No thanks.

00:51:19.660 Sorry for the long email.

00:51:21.060 Thanks for the awesome show.

00:51:22.340 Cheers, Phil.

00:51:23.440 That is terrifying.

00:51:24.860 And I think that the cost of some of this technology, it must be astronomical.

00:51:30.880 And I can't imagine it's worth it.

00:51:32.780 And so it just feels to me like it is investing in surveillance tech for surveillance tech's sake.

00:51:39.500 Yeah.

00:51:39.660 So thanks, Phil, for writing in because that was a pretty insightful email with some specialized knowledge.

00:51:45.180 Let me go on.

00:51:46.220 This one comes from Susan.

00:51:47.540 Bridget, I think you're going to like this.

00:51:50.020 Bridget, Mike, I dislike self-checkout immensely and only use it if forced to.

00:51:54.860 For example, if the line for a person is really long and I only have one item, that is maybe once every year or two.

00:52:01.160 My goal is to never use it.

00:52:02.780 I think it's impersonal, frustrating, and job-stealing.

00:52:05.340 When I lived in Boston, the stop and shop near me had these wands you could take with you as you shopped and bagged your groceries in your cart.

00:52:11.260 You just had to pay on the way out.

00:52:12.900 I didn't mind those, and the technology seemed more reliable than the typical self-checkout.

00:52:16.940 You paid a cashier, but you didn't have to put your groceries on a belt.

00:52:20.460 Occasionally, they would randomly flag you for a spot check of your items, I guess to prevent theft.

00:52:24.860 After they scanned a few items, you were on your way.

00:52:27.400 I actually liked that system way better than self-checkout.

00:52:30.580 Susan goes on to thank us for the episode about Claudine Gay.

00:52:35.400 She brings up some really good points about that, that it's not a coincidence that all of the Ivy League college presidents called to testify before Congress were women.

00:52:43.420 It's not a coincidence that two of the three women are now gone from their leadership roles.

00:52:47.540 It's not a coincidence that the prime target for the far-rights campaign was a highly qualified black woman. 0.98

00:52:52.160 There are so many mediocre white men 0.98

00:52:53.820 holding positions of leadership 0.99

00:52:54.960 that are never targeted.

00:52:56.420 Yeah, so thanks, Susan, for the nice email.

00:53:00.220 Well, thanks for listening, Susan.

00:53:01.620 And I do like this email.

00:53:03.220 I like it because it affirms my worldview,

00:53:07.020 surprisingly enough.

00:53:09.600 Yeah, and it's interesting that, you know,

00:53:12.920 Susan is clear that she dislikes them,

00:53:16.160 the self-checkout immensely,

00:53:17.400 but then goes on to describe this

00:53:19.280 other less oppressive system

00:53:22.620 of checking oneself out

00:53:24.860 that was less objectionable, right?

00:53:27.140 So it's, I do have to wonder

00:53:29.500 how much of this people's visceral reaction

00:53:33.000 against self-checkout

00:53:34.740 is just the sort of jankiness of the machines

00:53:38.080 and the frustration of standing there

00:53:41.500 while it's like furiously beeping at you

00:53:43.540 and telling you that you've done something wrong.

00:53:45.980 uh that like maddening frustrating feeling i think i have a special sensitivity to machines beeping

00:53:52.900 at me part of me wonders if my feelings on self-checkout are because i am the befuddled

00:53:57.480 person who can't figure it out and the machine is beeping and everybody's looking and i i'm like

00:54:02.340 having an issue yeah but it's just software right like and it's one one can master it i'll get there

00:54:11.120 one day okay here's our final email uh from emily emily brought up some really good points

00:54:17.500 uh i've been working as a cashier at a grocery store since 2020 and have been on the front lines

00:54:24.000 of the self-checkout debate mostly from customers complaining to me a person with no power over the

00:54:29.220 addition of self-checkout machines at our store about how hated they are and that they're taking

00:54:33.300 my job well i can certainly see where the concern about my job security comes from at least in my

00:54:38.520 personal experience, the inclusion of self-checkout machines has actually made my job easier and more

00:54:43.580 secure. Pretty much every member of my team has suffered some sort of checking-related injury,

00:54:48.780 be it bone spurs, carpal tunnel, or tennis elbow from the repetitive motions of scanning items.

00:54:53.560 With self-checkout, rather than having to take unpaid time off work, since this usually starts

00:54:58.180 before you've worked enough hours to get paid time off, we can instead work the self-checkout

00:55:02.180 machines, which require less manual labor and therefore less stress on work-related injuries.

00:55:06.820 As for the machines taking our jobs, I'm a little more split on the truth of this.

00:55:11.060 On one hand, I don't want to go to bat for any corporations looking to raise profits by cutting labor costs.

00:55:16.160 But on the other, as someone who was an essential worker during the initial COVID lockdown and the ensuing spikes and variations,

00:55:22.660 I can tell you it is a thankless job and I don't begrudge anyone who quits to move on to less people facing work.

00:55:28.160 The front end has the highest turnover rate of any department at my store.

00:55:32.440 Since having self-checkout machines, I at least do not have to deal with customers complaining

00:55:36.380 to me about understaffing and long lines.

00:55:39.740 Obviously, I'm just one person with one experience, but I figured I'd give my point of view since

00:55:43.420 it became such a heated topic.

00:55:44.980 Love the show and hope you're all doing well.

00:55:46.720 Thanks for your time, Emily.

00:55:48.100 Emily, thank you so much for this email because I really wanted to get the perspective of

00:55:52.380 somebody who currently works retail.

00:55:54.300 I did not even think about the repetitive motion of scanning out people's items and

00:56:01.160 what that might do to someone's body. And so the alternative of being like, well, you don't have

00:56:06.840 to take time off and make no money. You can do the self-checkout, which is a lot less physically

00:56:11.520 demanding on you. I didn't even think about that as a potential reason why self-checkout might be

00:56:17.680 better in retail establishments. And so I'm really thankful for that perspective. Also,

00:56:23.020 I didn't think about this either, but it makes so much sense that people who have issues with

00:56:28.240 self-checkout complaining to the retail cashier who like she's like oh well i actually made the

00:56:33.740 decision to put that to put that in the store thanks for letting me know i'll take it out like

00:56:37.440 what do people think that like that's how the decisions get made like even if you have issues

00:56:42.180 with self-checkout like i do you don't need like complaining to the retail cashier who has who did

00:56:47.360 not make the decision to put that there is not the proper way to do that complain on your podcast

00:56:52.240 people yeah and and not just complaining to this cashier who sounds like didn't really want to hear

00:56:58.000 but also framing it as like and i'm complaining because i really care about protecting your job

00:57:03.900 like get over yourself you don't care about this person's job if you cared you would like

00:57:09.080 say something nice to them or like tell a joke uh not just like complain at them about how you

00:57:15.120 are inconvenienced i'm complaining at you for your benefit don't you see this yeah and also like it

00:57:21.480 just i mean it also kind of goes back to the conversation about retail establishments and

00:57:26.740 loneliness like it just confirms to me that putting the burden on retail cashiers to stave

00:57:32.400 off the loneliness epidemic when emily is saying that the people the kind of experiences people

00:57:37.440 are having working at the front end like this are not really that great and that people are rude and

00:57:43.100 people you know maybe it's not something that people would want would have a lot of warm

00:57:47.420 fuzzies about yeah that that aspect really like stuck with me i've been thinking about that a lot

00:57:53.080 Since we did that episode and read these emails, how, you know, I personally feel like I've, you know, the experience of living in a city during 2020 when COVID disrupted all of our lives and we were like trapped inside, it really like changed a lot of things that certainly changed me.

00:58:13.580 And so one part, one thing after this conversation is I've just been thinking about how has it changed me, right?

00:58:19.660 Like maybe I should go through the cash, the like human cashier line a little bit more often.

00:58:26.100 I don't know.

00:58:27.020 I recently, you know, I think over the weekend went to the grocery store, that same giant that we've been talking about all the time.

00:58:34.640 And there was some kind of issue happening at the self-checkout machines and the line was just like not moving.

00:58:41.460 and so I was like you know what as a little experiment I'm gonna get in the human cashier

00:58:48.620 line and I did have a perfectly nice interaction with the woman checking me out we talked about

00:58:53.500 the fennel I was buying it was a nice interaction so maybe the self-checkout is like not even the

00:58:59.840 thing maybe we just like need to treat each other a little better oh I think that's right like the

00:59:06.340 self-checkout can be like an internal test of how we're doing, how well or how badly we're

00:59:13.280 connecting and thinking about our fellow human. Yeah, it's true. I mean, a lot of time when I'm

00:59:17.720 feeling particularly low or stressed or angry or something, those are the times when I just want

00:59:25.200 to head down, go into the self-checkout line. And yeah, maybe that can be a little like signal to

00:59:32.640 me to be a little bit more mindful of my mood and maybe try to change it by, I don't know,

00:59:38.000 being kind to somebody or something. Oh, I, I have to do that with intention. When I'm in that

00:59:43.220 place where everything is going wrong and I feel like I'm about to lash out, I, it's like a personal

00:59:49.540 challenge with myself to like, go do something nice for a stranger and see if that reconnects,

00:59:57.220 like reconnects you, recalibrates you, grounds you. Like it's like a personal challenge because

01:00:02.060 otherwise I just know myself and I can really spit out and it's like, oh, the reason that this

01:00:07.800 work thing didn't go well, if this person had nothing to do with it, let me take my anger out

01:00:11.860 on them. Like, so it's, it's like a little, a little challenge that I have to myself to sort

01:00:15.860 of reconnect and stay grounded. And then also just like stay, I just try to stay grateful and

01:00:21.880 checked into the fact that we're all sharing space together sharing this world together and like

01:00:27.880 it's comes with annoyances and hang-ups but at the end of the day like what a gift

01:00:33.180 yeah it's true and you know maybe we have to have three or four mundane draining interactions to be

01:00:42.420 able to have that one good one that like changes our mood spins it more positive and gives us those

01:00:49.240 those warm fuzzies with the stranger at the store all right so thanks again for writing in

01:00:55.600 getting this kind of listener feedback is amazing feels really good and bridget we still need to do

01:01:02.840 that experiment where we go to these stores and like actually compare although it it feels a

01:01:07.660 little less charged now oh when when we were qaing the episode i was like getting getting my shoes on

01:01:15.340 I was like, let's do this, but we're still going to do it.

01:01:17.940 Details to come.

01:01:19.620 And as I said, I want to start really unpacking other low stakes tech stuff.

01:01:26.280 One that I might have is QR code menus.

01:01:29.200 Maybe that'll be next because I have a lot of feelings about QR code menus.

01:01:32.100 And if you do too, maybe start percolating on that.

01:01:34.460 But yeah, thanks for listening.

01:01:36.020 And thanks for sharing your feedback with us.

01:01:38.480 And Mike, I guess I'll see you at the grocery store.

01:01:40.700 Yeah, I'll see you there away from the self checkout.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - January 24, 2024

Self Checkout Machines： Tearing our Community Apart!

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