00:02:03.620So last night, Politico published a leaked draft opinion from Supreme Court Justice Alito
00:02:08.920that pretty much lays out the groundwork for the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade,
00:02:14.400the landmark Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion in the United States.0.97
00:02:19.320And what's really gross and fucked up to me is that Alito based it on a thoroughly debunked anti-choice extremist talking point about abortions being a tool to control Black populations.0.75
00:02:30.640And he also went out of his way to set the stage for this opinion to serve as the basis for undermining other rights in the future, like marriage equality and interracial marriages,0.97
00:02:40.140at a time when the rights of people of color, queer folks, and trans folks are already very much under attack.
00:02:45.620Now, this opinion is completely outrageous.
00:02:49.320But it is still just a draft until the final Supreme Court decisions come out in June.
00:02:54.540So that means, for now, abortion is still legal.
00:03:08.180The good news is that this leaked opinion gives us time to mobilize.
00:03:12.400Donate money to abortion networks by going to abortionfunds.org or tangoti.com slash donate.
00:03:19.200People all over the country depend on abortion funds.
00:03:22.240And their difficult work is about to get even harder.
00:03:24.920So you can really make a difference by supporting their critical, life-saving work.
00:03:28.900And the second piece of good news is that in December of 2021, the FDA permanently eased rules on abortion pills,
00:03:35.800making it easier to access pills online through telemedicine,
00:03:39.020which will become even more important if and when Roe is overturned.
00:03:43.260Abortion pills are safe and effective.
00:03:46.100That's why, though tempting, using scary images of coat hangers to talk about Roe being overturned isn't really accurate or all that helpful.
00:03:55.280You can visit PlanCPills.org for help finding abortion pills in all 50 states.
00:04:00.500Access to abortion pills is an issue that has huge tech implications.
00:04:04.820Because even though abortion pills are safe, the real fight in states that criminalize self-managed abortion is now about online surveillance,
00:04:12.600both surveillance of people who need abortions
00:04:14.500and people who help others get abortions.
00:04:17.440Things like online search histories and chats
00:04:19.460have been used to create digital paper trails
00:07:10.220So abortion via telemedicine has been available in the U.S. since around 2008
00:07:13.800when the first formal program began in Iowa.
00:07:16.160A patient in one clinic can confer via video conference with a doctor in another clinic, and then they would get their pills to induce an abortion.
00:07:23.680And that video conferencing element, that satisfied a federal requirement that a doctor had to dispense the medication to induce an abortion in a clinic, office, or hospital.
00:07:34.300And so that was a real instance where technology bridged that gap that satisfied this federal requirement that a doctor dispense, I'm using quotes around that, this medication.
00:07:45.420And so there are so many reasons why that would be a huge deal for people who are pregnant or really anybody looking for any kind of health care.
00:07:53.520Because if you're someone who lives in a rural community or a remote community, you can't always get to a clinic.
00:07:58.780Maybe there's not one close. Let's say you don't have a car.
00:08:01.320Let's say you're just a busy person with a lot on your plate and you can't physically go see a doctor.
00:08:07.440Telemedicine really is this thing that can really bridge that gap and bring the health care that folks need right into their homes.
00:08:14.560And so huge, huge deal. Unfortunately, opponents responded pretty quickly, prohibiting abortion via telemedicine in 20 states since 2011.
00:08:23.160In the U.S., the FDA regulates medication abortion under a set of rules called the Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategy, or REMS, which determines how and which doctors can provide abortion pills to patients.
00:08:34.600There was this really interesting paper called 16 Years of Over-Regulation, Time to Unburden, Mifreprex, published in 2017 in the New England Journal of Medicine, where leading clinicians and public health experts argued that the FDA restrictions were medically unnecessary.
00:08:50.580And ACLU attorneys noted that the leading medical groups, including the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, support making abortion pills available by prescription at pharmacies.
00:09:00.540And here's a really good quote from one of the doctors. He says, overwhelming medical evidence and decades of clinical experience show medication abortion to be a safe and effective method to end pregnancy.
00:09:10.100There is simply no medical justification for these restrictions, and they create a needless and harmful burden for women seeking this care.
00:09:17.100And I think that really sums up, I feel, what this conversation is about.
00:09:21.440It's about what happens when there are needless and undue burdens that separate people from the medical care, including abortion care, that they need.
00:09:30.220Right. This also reminds me of, because a lot of what you talk about, Bridget, has to do with, yes, the internet and misinformation and disinformation. And I know we've had conversations around CPCs or crisis pregnancy centers and how when you'll type, you know, where do I get an abortion? A lot of times the results will be like the first results will be these CPCs. And I can just imagine for people trying to get access to this medication, the same kind of issue there.
00:09:56.220And then on top of that, people have been arrested, correct?
00:10:03.020So the SIA legal team, a group of lawyers who specialize in people who have induced their own abortions,
00:10:08.780knows of 21 people who have been arrested or prosecuted for ending their pregnancies outside of this medical setting that was required,
00:10:15.340you know, in terms of medication abortion or helping someone else do it.
00:10:20.120This actually might even be undercounted since they rely on news reports to track these cases.
00:10:24.640The charges brought against people who self-abort can range from child abuse, the abuse of a corpse, or failure to report death.
00:10:30.260Now, to be clear, none of the women were prosecuted for buying abortion pills specifically,
00:10:34.740but they note that buying pills online or even Googling phrases like buy abortion pills online
00:10:39.940can leave a paper trail that can be used as evidence against them in a trial.
00:10:44.060And so this is not something that is abstract.
00:10:47.860like we in this country people have been prosecuted for trying to induce abortions on their own via
00:10:55.480pills they get online a famous case in 2015 an indiana woman named kirby patel was sentenced to
00:11:01.70020 years in prison for feticide after she allegedly used abortion pills that she ordered online
00:11:06.420prosecutors claimed that her fetus had been quote born alive and that she allowed it to die but
00:11:12.560later her conviction was overturned on appeal. So again, we are talking about very real circumstances
00:11:18.840where this, this right to access abortion care via pills, via telemedicine online has been
00:11:27.460really a fraught thing that people have been prosecuted for trying to do. And, you know,
00:11:34.120we have all of these instances where people have subjected themselves to unsafe, sketchy abortion
00:11:40.600pills because of the undue burdens that have been put in place to prevent them from getting
00:11:46.720access to the care they need. The case for the woman in Indiana, even though it's not related,
00:11:52.380kind of brings back the memories of what just happened in Alabama recently with a woman who
00:11:57.100lost the fetus wanting to have this baby, not trying to have an abortion, but got prosecuted
00:12:03.300with those same types of charges for neglect of a fetus. And I'm like, we all were horrified
00:12:10.220And had it not been publicized, she probably would still have remained in jail or prison.
00:12:15.200And it also takes me to what's happening in Texas, as the Supreme Court is now allowing the bounty law.
00:12:20.980That's what I'm calling it. I know that's not what it's actually called for it to go.
00:12:24.600And I'm wondering how this is going to affect if people are trying to access abortion pills.
00:12:29.820And we are you already said, I believe that 20 states are not allowing for this type of access in any way.
00:12:36.080So I'm guessing Texas is one of those. I'm honestly guessing Georgia is, too, that how this is going to affect even more so in trying to prosecute those with uteruses or those who are helping try to get access at all.
00:12:49.080Yeah, it's a great question. And I think it really underscores just what scary, dire times we are in. You know, I remember talking to my mom about, you know, when she was coming of age, protesting for, you know, abortion on her campus, trying to get access to birth control pills.
00:13:07.940and she once told me she was like oh when I was doing all of that back then I knew at least when
00:13:13.780I had a daughter she wouldn't have to sort of fight these same fights that these fights would
00:13:18.180be over and done with at the time my daughter was here well talk about you know predictions that
00:13:23.940didn't come true she was wrong here I am her adult daughter still having to deal with this kind of
00:13:29.700stuff and so we're in a really scary time for abortion access for anybody who cares about
00:13:35.800abortion access and that should really be everybody everybody regardless of gender should
00:13:40.160care about this and so I agree with you I I think that sometimes I'll see like I think it was Chris
00:13:46.880Hayes who tweeted something and I like Chris Hayes I'm not trying to like get down on him
00:13:50.720but he tweeted about I think the Texas abortion bill like oh I think that we're going to see
00:13:56.440miscarriages being criminalized next and it's like I hate to break it to you Chris Hayes but
00:14:00.640we're there that's happening you know you know this is exactly that same level of like oh my god
00:14:07.760we're still fighting for access we're still trying to have this conversation about bodily autonomy
00:14:12.860for those with uteruses those who are non-binary like trying to figure out how to even have rice
00:14:18.880at all like honestly seeing the news as i talked about earlier i was like but but waiting for you0.91
00:14:27.720know, that had to drop waiting for, oh, no, it's going to fall apart. I'm trying to figure out how
00:14:32.080even how the FDA even came to this point. How did we get here? Which is amazing. But how?
00:14:38.080Well, I actually have an answer for you, which is like, as much as I hated COVID,
00:14:43.220we kind of have COVID to thank for this important change. And so this new change, to be clear,
00:14:49.400it's not going to impact everyone in every state, like you said. But the reason why we have it is
00:14:54.020because of COVID restrictions. And so in 2020, during the pandemic, medical groups filed a
00:14:58.460lawsuit asking that the in-person dispensing requirement be lifted because the pandemic
00:15:02.920meant that patients were faced with a greater risk of being infected with coronavirus if they
00:15:08.120were visiting clinics in person to get pills. And so a judge granted that request this that summer.
00:15:13.820But after a challenge by the Trump administration, of course, the Supreme Court reinstated the
00:15:18.520restriction. In March, medical organizations tried again, writing to President Biden and
00:15:22.740Vice President Harris. In April, the FDA decided not to enforce the in-person requirement for the
00:15:27.400duration of the pandemic and allowed these pills to be mailed to folks. And again, yesterday,
00:15:32.600the big decision is that that change, which at that point was temporary, is going to be made
00:15:37.260permanent. And so, you know, the pandemic, I hate it. I hate it, obviously. But this is one of those
00:15:43.720things where I think that the people who were fighting for this regulation change really saw
00:15:48.580a way to be like you know it doesn't make sense to ask people to go in person to get the abortion
00:15:54.400care they need particularly during a pandemic and then being like and also shouldn't we just
00:15:59.620end it all together you know i really appreciate them kind of like the strategy of this yeah yeah
00:16:05.480you know you gotta find your like you said your wins and your chances where you can
00:17:43.760They may receive pills at any address in that state.0.92
00:17:46.940So, again, it just seems like such a weird, obviously bullshit burden to be like, well, if you're in this state that does not allow for telemedicine appointments for abortion pills, you can't get them.0.60
00:17:59.980But if you drive to a state that does allow them, you can sit in the Wendy's parking lot and have a telemedicine visit over your phone in your car, and then that's all good.0.92
00:18:09.540that again it just seems like it's really reveals that this is about putting ridiculous burdens and
00:18:16.240barriers to prevent people from getting the abortion care they need like what if you don't
00:18:20.860have a car what if you don't have the financial means to drive to another state what if you have
00:18:26.260to work or already have kids and don't really have the ability to just like take a trip like this
00:18:30.880it seems like such an obvious way to just prevent people from getting the care they need and like0.60
00:18:36.600to me it just like my bullshit alarm goes off like this is clearly just like let's just make0.70
00:18:42.640it hard for people to get the care they need yeah i mean this is such a like a much more0.96
00:18:47.460superficial problem but it reminds me of when i was a kid um we would drive to the border of
00:18:53.720alabama and where i'm located in georgia and we'd right on the border there'd be all these fireworks
00:18:59.060i knew you were gonna say that we would get all these fireworks and be like but if they're
00:19:03.840illegal in georgia my parents would be like you can't sell them but we could shoot them off i'm
00:19:08.180like that makes no sense to me that's absolutely right i was thinking the same thing with like
00:19:14.560alcohol cells you know within the southern states like they were very restrictive up until a certain
00:19:19.360point so people would cross borders to go get alcohol so uh for a long time georgia couldn't
00:19:24.980sell it on sundays so people would go to alabama like that would have access to it again this is
00:19:30.640very like less harmful than any other stuff but it is also very reminiscent of the fact that they
00:19:38.380are shutting down clinics in certain states and so therefore we have to access clinics maybe two
00:19:43.360or three states away in general and honestly we've been watching what's happening with Poland as well
00:19:48.920as they have had one of the harshest restrictions and bans in the world as well it is fairly new
00:19:54.340and them talking about the fact that they're having to do essentially underground networks
00:19:57.740to get access to pills and to any type of reproductive health access
00:20:02.820by traveling across country border lines in order to get access.
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00:24:14.100And yeah, that's exactly what's happening in that level statewide for us that, yes, for some of these, they're going to make it so difficult that you will have to plan as if like you have to be away for a week to get a pill in order to get any kind of access.
00:24:31.040And if you can't afford it, sorry, then you're not allowed it.
00:24:34.800Yeah. And so just like what's happening in Poland, we're seeing some a bit of that here in the United States.
00:24:38.740So states like California and New York, states where you can access abortion pills via telemedicine, they've taken steps in recent years to further solidify access to abortion.
00:24:47.320And they're expected to increase the availability of telemedicine for abortion pills, specifically to provide opportunities for folks in other states with these kinds of restrictions to obtain abortion pills by traveling to their state to get them.
00:24:59.900And so we are seeing this thing where other states that allow this are probably going to be stepping up so that people specifically so that people who live in states that, you know, they can't access this can get them.
00:25:11.560And so it is it is a little bit like that. And, you know, even though this is a win, we shouldn't have to be doing any of this just to get abortion care.
00:25:20.820Like nobody should have to jump through ridiculous hoops to get medical care that they need.
00:25:24.580And so this is no different. And so I think of this as a win, but I just I have to keep like harping on that, that we shouldn't have to be fighting this way and like celebrating these sort of like incremental tooth and nail wins for something that like should just be a right that everybody should have.
00:25:40.040Yeah. And these pill-based abortions are actually pretty common, right?
00:25:47.600That's right. And so especially in the pandemic, the Teleabortion Project, which is a research
00:25:52.240program authorized by the FDA to conduct telemedicine appointments and male pills,
00:25:56.640has heard from many people. And they're saying that they have really seen from folks using their
00:26:02.200services that people are really stepping up the amount that they are seeking these kinds of
00:26:06.600services since the pandemic. Elizabeth Raymond, she said that of the 2,083 abortions provided
00:26:12.700under the program between July 2016 and October 2021, more than a third, 715, occurred during
00:26:19.380the pandemic. And that really mirrors what the CDC has found. The CDC found in 2020 in some states,
00:26:25.060including Indiana, Kansas, and Minnesota, the pill-based abortions accounted for the majority
00:26:30.200of abortions, according to state health department records. And the CDC also found that 79% of
00:26:36.540abortions occurred before the 10 weeks gestation period, suggesting that there are many, many,
00:26:41.460many more people who would probably choose abortion pills over an in-clinic procedure
00:26:45.280if they could. Another great resource, Abortion on Demand, which is an online platform that
00:26:50.000provides physician-supported medication abortion care online, said that they have seen a lot of
00:26:54.240growing interest in pill-based abortion since the pandemic as well. And so it makes complete
00:26:59.580sense that at a time when it's like not safe to leave your house, that people would be turning
00:27:04.620to the internet to get the kind of care that they need. And even beyond abortion, you know, I,
00:27:10.320when the pandemic started actually very early into the pandemic, this is like a little bit
00:27:13.780embarrassing. I had a, um, assist on my butt cheek and my doctor had switched to telemedicine
00:27:21.520only. And I remember thinking like, well, certainly she's not going to want to like
00:27:26.100have me take down my pants and show her my butt cheek over, you know, FaceTime. And that's exactly0.95
00:27:31.880what i did and i'm able to get the care that i needed and so obviously we should not be putting
00:27:37.300unfair barriers in place when i think that the pandemic really showed how important it is
00:27:43.600to use the technology that we have to access health care right and i know there are stories
00:27:49.520you can find out there are people who said like why it was so important to them and why they wanted
00:27:53.180to be in like their kind of you know home or where they felt comfortable when they did this
00:27:57.280But also, unfortunately, a lot of times going to an abortion clinic can also not feel safe because there can be people protesting outside and that makes it a much more stressful experience.
00:28:11.300And speaking of, I'm sure not everyone was happy about about this news.
00:28:19.580Oh, of course not. So anti-choice groups were not happy about this announcement.
00:28:23.440And the Susan B. Anthony Foundation said the Biden administration today moved to weaken the longstanding federal safety regulations against male order abortion drugs designed to protect women from serious health risks and potential abuse.
00:28:35.420So here's my question about this. First of all, how and why would someone be abusing these abortion pills?
00:28:40.120It's not like they like take it from me. They do not get you high.
00:28:44.080The side effects that you might have are like mild nausea.
00:28:47.440I don't really think that people are like, oh, I can't wait to get these drugs to induce mild nausea.
00:29:16.160Patients made 70 visits to emergency rooms or urgent care centers with 10 instances of
00:29:20.820serious complications, the study reported.
00:29:22.360And so that's really like pretty good in terms of, you know, the safety of this, like doctors have made it very clear that pill based abortions are not unsafe and telemedicine abortions are safe for all the reasons that you just said, Annie, they can be more convenient.
00:29:37.300Maybe you don't want to go to an abortion clinic
00:29:39.440where there's going to be people shouting at you
00:31:08.780And I think one of the things that we are talking about and trying to be very loud about
00:31:12.640is that these groups are not focusing on the women.
00:31:16.340Obviously, it is a literal fight about what is moral in their eyes.
00:31:20.180And for a Bible Belt area of such as Georgia, it is a constant battle trying to see how
00:31:26.880to combat these really generalized slash false narratives of harming women as if they're truly
00:31:35.840trying to save women what is actually they're trying to prevent women to get good access and
00:31:42.420good health care at all so it's kind of one of those moments of like how and I guess honestly
00:31:49.680the pandemic has shown a lot of light about the fact that when it comes to morality and
00:31:55.620conspiracies they don't care if it's from science they don't care that's true about the truth
00:32:03.720as we have learned um and i find it interesting that as we are trying to focus on this what what
00:32:11.020are some ways that we can maybe uh advocate for ourselves for people like annie and i who are
00:32:17.160stuck in georgia right now for more access to these things oh what a good question i mean first
00:32:22.800of all I just have to honor what you just said because we are at a time where it is scary and
00:32:31.240the threat is real anybody who told you like oh they're not going to overturn Roe like you'll be
00:32:36.460fine like we're not going to go backward they were incorrect they were telling you something
00:32:40.420that wasn't true and I I am sorry to have to say that but here's here's the reality of where we are
00:32:47.180And it's very real and it's very scary. And I completely understand the urge to be like, well, this is happening. It's inevitable. Our rights are going to be rolled back. Women are going to die. People are going to die. This is going to be bad.
00:33:02.120Anybody who's feeling that that exhaustion and malaise, I'm with you.
00:33:07.460I get it. All I can say is that now is not the time to retreat.
00:33:12.020Now is the time to dig in. And so I have to really lift up and amplify all the amazing people who are doing the work on the ground of protecting abortion access.
00:33:22.400I want to shout out a few people right now. My colleague at Ultraviolet, Sonia Spoo, who is incredible.
00:33:27.500My friend Renee, who is doing a lot of work around abortion storytelling and just like
00:33:31.220helping people understand how many different people are impacted by abortion care and need
00:33:36.540abortions and like someone that you love has had an abortion.
00:33:39.640And then if you're looking like, what can I do?