There Are No Girls on the Internet - Tangoti Classic： Bill Gates' divorce sheds light on Jeffrey Epstein's deep tech connections

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00:01:03.960 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

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00:01:19.360 I survived nine months in captivity

00:01:22.940 And I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them

00:01:28.200 I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are The Survivor Files

00:01:32.020 Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable

00:01:35.780 Abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced

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00:01:51.600 This episode includes mentions of sex trafficking,

00:01:54.160 sex crimes against minors, and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.

00:02:01.440 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:02:09.840 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:02:12.580 Last week, Bill Gates and Melinda Gates announced their divorcing.

00:02:19.160 According to the Wall Street Journal, the couple has actually been in the process of divorcing for two years.

00:02:24.400 One reason is Melinda Gates' reported discomfort with Bill Gates' dealings with convicted sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein.

00:02:30.800 The New York Times reported that beginning in 2011, Bill Gates met with Jeffrey Epstein on numerous occasions,

00:02:37.000 including at least three times at Epstein's Manhattan townhouse, and at least once staying late into the night.

00:02:42.580 And keep in mind, this would have been years after Epstein pled guilty and was convicted of sexually abusing a 14-year-old girl in 2008.

00:02:50.820 Bill Gates' spokeswoman told The Times that he met with Epstein to discuss philanthropy, saying,

00:02:55.300 Bill Gates regrets ever meeting with Epstein and recognizes that it was an error in judgment to do so.

00:03:00.340 So I won't pretend to know what's going on here.

00:03:03.560 But I do know that there are many powerful men in tech who had connections with Epstein that have yet to face much scrutiny,

00:03:09.380 let alone any accountability, for their choice to have dealings with a sexual abuser.

00:03:15.200 And I also know that we don't spend near enough time talking about the fact that

00:03:18.580 Ottawa Mboya, a Black woman and MIT student,

00:03:21.680 was one of the first to call out the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and the tech world,

00:03:26.320 setting a powerful example.

00:03:28.560 Let's revisit Ottawa's story.

00:03:31.640 You've probably heard about American financier Jeffrey Epstein.

00:03:35.860 Epstein pled guilty and was convicted in 2008 of procuring an underage girl for sex.

00:03:41.080 In July of last year, he was arrested on charges of sex trafficking and conspiracy to engage in sex trafficking.

00:03:46.680 He was found dead in prison in August.

00:03:48.900 In addition to his connection to powerful political figures like Bill Clinton, Queen Elizabeth's son Prince Andrew, and credibly accused rapist President Donald Trump,

00:03:57.060 Epstein also had deep connections to the tech world, despite being a convicted sex offender.

00:04:02.660 On September 7th, Ronan Farrow published an exposé in The New Yorker

00:04:06.240 that found that the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, or MIT,

00:04:10.320 had a deeper fundraising relationship with Epstein than it had previously acknowledged,

00:04:14.320 even as officials knew he was a convicted sex offender,

00:04:17.160 and that the university went to great lengths to cover it up.

00:04:20.620 Now here's just some of what Farrow found.

00:04:22.640 Even though Epstein was disqualified in MIT's official donor database,

00:04:26.040 the Media Lab continued to accept money from him, consulted him about the use of funds,

00:04:30.540 and, by marking his contributions as anonymous, avoided disclosing their full extent, both publicly and within the university.

00:04:38.060 Epstein appeared to act as a go-between for wealthy donors like Bill Gates to pump money into MIT.

00:04:42.900 According to Farrow, MIT's efforts to conceal Epstein's connections to the university went so far

00:04:47.640 that staff referred to Epstein as Voldemort, or he who must not be named.

00:04:52.120 Whistleblower Signe Swenson, a former MIT development associate, told Farrow that the lab's leadership made it explicit,

00:04:57.800 even in her earliest days with them, that Epstein's donations had to be kept secret.

00:05:02.940 Staffers knew about MIT's relationship with Epstein.

00:05:06.220 Prominent faculty advisor Ethan Zuckerman resigned in protest.

00:05:10.520 After Farrow's piece was published, Joy Ito, the director of the MIT Media Lab, resigned.

00:05:16.200 In the latest fallout connected to Jeffrey Epstein, MIT is opening an investigation into its ties to the financier and convicted sex offender.

00:05:23.020 The announcement came just one day after The New Yorker revealed that MIT's Media Lab was attempting to conceal donations from Epstein.

00:05:34.320 Now there's a lot to say about Jeffrey Epstein, but this story isn't really about him.

00:05:39.480 It's about courage, community, and power.

00:05:42.460 We hear a lot about Epstein's horrific crimes, and most people credit Ronan Farrow with bringing their full scope to light.

00:05:49.120 But even before Ronan Farrow's piece was published, women in the MIT community spoke up.

00:05:54.380 And we should honor their voices, too.

00:05:56.480 To the future, MIT's Media Lab, a place that follows crazy ideas wherever they may lead.

00:06:04.340 We get to think about the future.

00:06:06.340 What does the world look like 10 years, 20 years, 30 years?

00:06:09.000 What should it look like?

00:06:10.440 The MIT Media Lab is an important place.

00:06:14.080 CBS even dubbed it the Future Factory.

00:06:16.560 And it's where technologist Ottawa Mboya knew she had to be.

00:06:20.640 Yeah, I came here because it is sort of a place for misfits, the media lab.

00:06:27.060 It is interdisciplinary and has sort of the intersection of tech and art and design. 0.99

00:06:34.660 And that was what I was looking for when I graduated from undergrad.

00:06:38.440 I worked for a couple of years back in Nairobi where I'm from.

00:06:41.040 and became a VR developer on the side, on top of my job,

00:06:47.340 and needed to, I was sort of like looking for somewhere to find myself.

00:06:53.360 And I'd heard about the Media Lab and how sort of civic-minded one of the groups was,

00:06:58.560 called Civic Media.

00:07:00.040 And our motto is tech for social change.

00:07:03.680 And I was like, well, that sounds like exactly what I want to do.

00:07:07.320 Yeah, so I applied and then it worked out. 0.94

00:07:09.820 Ottawa was raised and shaped by a community of strong, resilient women.

00:07:13.540 And that upbringing has been a big part of how she shows up to the world today.

00:07:17.060 Yeah, for sure. I mean, my work is always about women and it's always about women in Africa.

00:07:24.060 Sometimes it's a bit more general than that, but I have worked in Nairobi my whole life.

00:07:31.200 I've studied away from Nairobi, but always try to bring back my research and the questions that I'm asking to home

00:07:38.860 and the women that I've worked with in informal settlements in Kenya.

00:07:44.100 But, you know, that's just my research.

00:07:46.380 But how I approach studying and how I approach being in big institutions

00:07:49.800 is definitely sort of inspired by how I was raised by my mom and my grandma.

00:07:55.660 And I have like a thousand aunts, grew up in something of a matriarchy, I would say.

00:08:01.180 So, yeah, for sure. 1.00

00:08:02.140 So you were raised in like a community of strong, badass women? 1.00

00:08:06.140 Yeah. And like really scary ones, too. 1.00

00:08:08.860 So, like, you look at them with a lot of love and admiration, but also a lot of fear.

00:08:13.300 Audible works with virtual reality, so that means she has to be able to imagine worlds that haven't even been seen yet.

00:08:19.620 It's a spirit that drives her, both personally and professionally.

00:08:23.100 Do you think that that sort of work has helped you kind of imagine a future where things can be better than they are?

00:08:30.740 Yeah, I think so. I would say so.

00:08:33.160 I think I've always sort of had that in me before I started playing on VR and AI.

00:08:38.880 And I think those projects are sort of things that are already within me as opposed to things that have made me think a certain way.

00:08:46.740 And I don't know, I grew up just reading and listening to a lot of amazing women and men, actually.

00:08:52.040 Both my grandpas are fantastic men and have been so influential in shaping Kenya and imagining Kenya differently that, yeah, I would say it's totally in me.

00:09:06.140 And, you know, when I wrote that, it wasn't even so much that I was sort of talking against my director, it wasn't even so much that I was imagining a different future.

00:09:16.840 It was more like this current present, something is off, something is not right.

00:09:23.000 And everything I've been taught since growing up is if something's not right, you fix it or you say something about it, but you don't sit around and do nothing.

00:09:30.420 As a grad student in the Media Lab, Ottawa published a piece in the Tech, MIT's student publication, about the university's connection to Jeffrey Epstein.

00:09:38.940 In it, she called for the resignation of Joy Ito, the head of the MIT Media Lab.

00:09:44.040 Her piece ran weeks before Ronan Farrow would go on to echo her points

00:09:47.060 in his New Yorker expose on September 7th.

00:09:49.640 The only difference is, Ottawa called for Ido to resign.

00:09:52.620 And after Farrow's piece was published, he actually did.

00:09:55.660 Did you ever feel like people have an easier time

00:09:58.020 taking the situation seriously when it's reported by a white man?

00:10:01.860 I mean, yeah, for sure.

00:10:04.160 And I appreciate Ronan Farrow's work a lot.

00:10:06.120 And we actually got to meet him and we kind of talked about this.

00:10:10.360 but you know senior swenson she was the real hero of the story i mean she was the actual whistleblower

00:10:16.020 and sometimes people treat me like i was a whistleblower when i didn't whistleblow anything

00:10:20.680 i just had the same information that everybody else had and sort of said my opinion about it

00:10:27.140 and for sure i mean even on the comments on my article like there were so many comments that

00:10:31.860 had to do with my race and ethnicity and where i'm from as opposed to you know not agreeing with

00:10:38.480 me and my ideas it was very much like well you're not from america you don't know what we're talking

00:10:42.980 about and then ronan farrow writes this article and of course everyone just jumped ship and you

00:10:50.120 know i totally understood my director resigning after that i was just more shocked at how many

00:10:55.800 people said oh we were wrong after the article because to me it's kind of like we already had

00:11:03.120 that information beforehand. And people had made up those decisions, their decision to support him

00:11:09.220 at that point. And it's only when a powerful, and not just white man, but a powerful white man

00:11:14.580 writes about it, that it's enough to sort of sway people's opinions or feelings, or at least their

00:11:20.400 vocal ones. So I heard an NPR interview where you described your meeting with Ido, where he basically

00:11:25.160 said, I agree with all the things that you're saying, all the things that you say I did, I

00:11:29.320 totally did. You're completely right. Except I don't think I should lose my job over it.

00:11:34.640 Yeah. And there were a lot of people who felt that way. And a lot of people still feel that way

00:11:38.820 because he kind of was the heart of the Media Lab. And a lot of people depended on him for their

00:11:44.800 projects, for funding, for, you know, other people were coming into the Media Lab for the first time

00:11:50.480 under his leadership. So it makes sense that some people feel that way. I think the Ronan Farrow

00:11:58.540 thing was interesting because we had that conversation one afternoon and then it was

00:12:06.160 that same afternoon that Ronan Farad's article dropped so he between our meeting and him resigning

00:12:11.280 was maybe four to five hours like really not much yeah um so you know it was overall like really

00:12:17.980 shocking but to me that's again a power thing it's totally different situation if one first year

00:12:25.300 master student who, you know, has no power whatsoever says you should resign. And it's

00:12:30.800 a totally different thing if Ronan Farrow comes after you. And he has a lot on stake. It's not

00:12:38.120 just his job at the Media Lab. He has a lot of venture capital and a lot of other endeavors that

00:12:42.920 I think must have been in his head to protect. But yeah, I mean, I don't know what it was that

00:12:48.000 made him cave in at that moment. It's easy to think about marginalized people who speak up

00:12:52.560 in these situations as being fearless.

00:12:54.860 But Ottawa actually remembers being pretty scared

00:12:57.040 and doing it anyway.

00:12:58.880 She drew strength from the courage

00:13:00.600 of other women and girls on the continent.

00:13:02.920 The fear I was feeling was actually from my mom

00:13:05.380 because she didn't want me to write the article.

00:13:09.700 And I don't like disagreeing with my mom,

00:13:12.760 but we just did on this particular issue.

00:13:14.980 And she was coming from a perspective of fear 0.98

00:13:17.400 or trying to take care of her baby

00:13:18.900 that she has sent to America to study.

00:13:20.620 like you know that she was scared that something might happen to my degree or that I might lose

00:13:26.640 my visa or something and not be able to finish but I don't know I didn't have that fear so much

00:13:32.080 and I just happened to be reading a really amazing book called Beneath the Tamaroon Tree

00:13:37.580 which is by Isha Sese of CNN about the Boko Haram bring back our girls story in Nigeria

00:13:46.300 and the amount of courage there was so wild that it just so happened that this is all happening at

00:13:54.520 the same time and I'm seeing myself as such a small player and seeing the thing that I want

00:14:00.040 to do is not that big compared to some of the things that these girls went through and some

00:14:05.280 of the things that they fought for against literal terrorists and I was like okay if they 0.97

00:14:11.340 have this kind of courage to stand in with a gun to their face and not change their religion

00:14:16.400 because it's what they believe in and if I believe in this thing then the you know the

00:14:21.940 the least I can do is say it with my chest you know um so that was how I was feeling so I was

00:14:29.520 actually feeling like kind of empowered inspired while I was writing it I sometimes describe

00:14:35.020 myself as a radical feminist but there's nothing radical about it it's just that the word feminist

00:14:40.140 sometimes seems radical to people.

00:14:42.520 But I just am a product of so many amazing women

00:14:46.120 that it's not shocking that I search for even more inspiration

00:14:50.340 from other women on the continent or on the world.

00:14:55.740 After her letter calling for Ito to resign was published,

00:14:58.680 things got rough for Ottawa.

00:15:00.580 So what was the climate like for you at MIT

00:15:02.440 after you published your piece? 0.98

00:15:05.880 It sucked.

00:15:07.720 i mean the very next day or the day after i publish this article like a website comes out

00:15:14.360 saying we support jury eto and it's signed by like you know pretty much like every professor

00:15:21.380 at the media lab and it's signed by all you know my colleagues and all these people and it's a

00:15:27.780 direct response to my one article and so you know it wasn't nice i was getting you know some not

00:15:33.240 nice comments but I was able to ignore most of them and and feel okay but it really highlighted

00:15:39.700 to me how fearful people can get when you speak the truth or when you say your own truth because

00:15:45.640 for me a whole website springing up with like it's signed with all these hundreds of names just

00:15:52.560 because one student wrote an article is shocking to me and that student has no power like I don't

00:16:01.300 know why there was so much fear or so much anger or so much defense because nobody else there was

00:16:08.220 lots of articles about it there was lots of articles that were very non-partisan and saying

00:16:13.200 what happened but nobody asked for him to be resigned to resign except me and it's almost as

00:16:20.680 if like that one statement or that one article like was like a wave through the media lab and

00:16:26.480 everyone was like pushing back as if what I said might sort of break the whole media lab

00:16:31.260 or make it fall apart and some people till today think it's my fault like for sure and you know

00:16:39.240 there's nothing I can do about that and I'm not going to sort of try to pander to those people

00:16:43.680 but I don't know it just showed me it really taught me the power of words we'll be right back

00:16:48.660 after this quick break.

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00:18:43.140 See you between the pages.

00:18:45.180 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:18:51.100 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:18:57.480 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:19:00.960 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.99

00:19:06.620 Shut up. Don't say anything. 0.99

00:19:09.340 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

00:19:13.800 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:19:18.360 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:19:25.800 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:19:29.600 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:19:33.280 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:19:36.340 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:19:47.720 And we're back.

00:19:49.500 By establishing financial relationships with respected organizations like MIT,

00:19:53.920 Epstein got powerful people, mostly men, to provide cover, protection, and most importantly, reputational redemption.

00:20:01.480 Once you've got the protection of that kind of power, it can be hard to penetrate.

00:20:06.340 Power. Powerful friends. Powerful names. Powerful money.

00:20:11.120 All of it makes it harder for people who exist outside of that power to speak out about bad behavior.

00:20:16.480 Why do you think the Media Lab overlooked Epstein's crimes?

00:20:20.240 Do you think it was just the money and they didn't care where it came from?

00:20:23.160 Or do you think it was something else?

00:20:25.520 I know that some people knew and some people didn't know.

00:20:28.520 So I can really only speak for the person that I know for sure knew, which is Joey.

00:20:33.200 and the rest I don't know and you know he he wielded a lot of power in this lab we do know

00:20:41.100 for a fact that there were people who who including my advisor Ethan Zuckerman who spoke out and said

00:20:47.340 that this was not a good idea and said that we shouldn't take money from Epstein and they were

00:20:52.540 ignored. I mean, the hard cold truth is that money is power. And there is a massive incentive

00:21:02.920 to ignore certain problems or ethics if you're going to get power by ignoring them. I think

00:21:10.060 the other thing to remember with the Epstein situation is that he wasn't giving the media

00:21:14.140 that much money anyway. I think a lot of the money that was, an MIT report just came out on the

00:21:21.380 funding issue and we found out that joey was actually trying to secure a much bigger pot of

00:21:25.640 funding for his own venture capital funds um so huge incentive to ignore what was sort of

00:21:34.960 on the surface um and then the other thing is just i don't think men get it all the time

00:21:42.000 like i don't think i sometimes i really think that some people thought that it's just not that

00:21:47.420 big a deal because they have no understanding on what that relationship, even in and of itself,

00:21:54.560 but without money, means for the victims of Epstein's. They have no idea how this consolidation

00:21:59.920 of power represses the victims and silences them. It almost sounds like Epstein was trying to use

00:22:06.880 his money to kind of create this cover so that if anybody ever tried to call him out on his actions,

00:22:11.700 he could just be like, oh, well, look at all these powerful, influential men I surround myself with.

00:22:16.320 in some ways was really smart because he didn't actually have that much money. He wasn't a Bill

00:22:22.760 Gates, but had enough to sort of know the right people and actually build a social circle around

00:22:29.780 himself that included politicians, scientists, artists, businessmen. And it was so strong that

00:22:38.820 everybody wanted to be a part of it. And it was Epstein's name that you had to know to get sort

00:22:45.700 in that circle. Ottawa still thinks highly of MIT, but the backlash she faced for speaking out

00:22:51.840 against Joy Ito showed her that things are not always as shiny as they look from the outside.

00:22:56.540 I think the Media Lab, you know, it's hard because I love this place. Like I've had

00:23:01.820 a fantastic two years. I've learned so much. I've grown so much and I wouldn't change it for

00:23:08.240 anything. But I think this experience has just been such an example of that because it's so

00:23:14.440 shiny on the outside. It's so glamorous. Everyone wants to be here. But that doesn't mean that we

00:23:21.880 don't have institutional issues of power and race and class and all these other things that

00:23:27.480 might make the play sound not so amazing. Do you think that there should be more scrutiny

00:23:31.800 on other powerful men who had financial entanglements with Epstein? I feel like a lot

00:23:36.000 of them have been able to skirt public scrutiny and public question asking about what exactly

00:23:43.460 their dealings with this person were oh yeah for sure yeah I think you know from the out I mean

00:23:51.020 because I can't speak for much more than MIT but I know you know even Harvard had relations with

00:23:56.520 took a lot of money from Epstein but they just declined to even talk about it and so it just

00:24:01.740 they sort of took the mom path and everyone forgot about it whereas at MIT it was so widely talked

00:24:09.820 about. And Epstein's network is so extensive that going through every single man who interacted with

00:24:19.980 him or a woman for that matter, actually, who interacted with him and took money from him and

00:24:25.060 what they knew and how they knew it is extremely difficult. So I don't know how to do that. But

00:24:31.700 there should be a way larger conversation around these networks of power, whether we isolate

00:24:39.560 individuals within them or not. And I think that also has a lot to do with who's willing to speak,

00:24:45.260 who's willing to come forward with information, because when we don't know anything,

00:24:50.620 all we can do is speculate and they have power and that doesn't really work. So yeah, I don't

00:24:55.760 know. I feel like everyone should be held accountable for sure, but I don't even know

00:25:00.720 where you start with Epstein. You know, I almost wonder if this is part of the deliberate strategy

00:25:05.400 of Epstein's, getting his money in so many powerful places and hands and institutions

00:25:09.500 that untangling it almost seems kind of impossible.

00:25:12.520 Yeah.

00:25:13.420 And I'm a firm believer of nothing is impossible.

00:25:16.480 But, you know, there's such a close link.

00:25:19.200 And I'm not saying that anyone who took his money did anything more than that.

00:25:23.360 But there is, you know, especially with the people who are closer with him, there is a

00:25:27.920 link with those people and victims, you know.

00:25:29.980 And I think right now what needs to happen is that the victims' narratives need to be

00:25:34.860 centered.

00:25:35.400 You know, and the people who have been hurt by Epstein need to have space to say, you know, this is how I was hurt.

00:25:42.880 This is how I'm feeling. This is what I need to recover.

00:25:45.920 And sort of if they feel up for it, these are the people who hurt me beyond Epstein.

00:25:51.660 It's hard to admit that people and institutions that mean a lot to us are actually fostering abusive behavior.

00:25:58.580 Joy was a beloved figure at MIT.

00:26:00.980 And that made it that much harder for the community to reckon with the fact that he enabled, benefited from, and covered up for an abuser.

00:26:08.480 Joey himself was a figure of so much awe and inspiration and resource to the Media Lab students and faculty that people didn't want to believe that, you know, he had done this thing that they didn't agree with.

00:26:25.700 and it was much easier if we just said okay hash hash let's sweep it under the rug and move on and

00:26:30.020 pretend like this never happened and so I understand that to some degree but you know

00:26:36.200 the world is like constantly changing and I think if you're sort of always that person on the bottom

00:26:40.560 of the ladder in certain societies like it's always it always comes from the bottom up like

00:26:46.160 it's always that change in institution is never going to happen by the people who for who the

00:26:52.200 institution is working and the media lab was working for me it wasn't you know I was having

00:26:58.040 a great time but I didn't have the same feelings about the director that most of my naysayers had

00:27:05.680 you know like I wasn't actually giving up I don't know funding for a specific project

00:27:11.760 by calling him out so in other ways it was easier for me than I you know I get why it was easier for

00:27:18.600 than other people but for a place that calls itself the future factory for a place that

00:27:24.580 prides itself in imagining and creating the future literally like the standard has got to

00:27:31.840 be higher and it's got to be higher not from a tech perspective but from a human perspective too

00:27:36.400 and so this is where it starts to look like the academy awards so first i want to invite up the

00:27:42.740 winners of the $250,000 Disobedience Award.

00:27:47.580 The second largest cast prize at MIT, I would say, after the

00:27:50.520 Lemelson Award for Innovation. So Tarana Burke and Sherry Martz

00:27:54.820 and Bethann McLaughlin. Thank you so much.

00:27:59.100 With this award, we are recognizing their leadership and dedication

00:28:02.580 in amplifying the voices of survivors of sexual violence and harassment,

00:28:06.500 fomenting positive change towards gender equality, and demonstrating defiance

00:28:10.400 in the face of oppression and apathy.

00:28:12.360 Thank you very much.

00:28:13.720 In 2017, MIT started the Disobedience Award,

00:28:17.360 a yearly award given to people in tech

00:28:19.300 who speak truth to power.

00:28:21.000 The award came with a $250,000,

00:28:23.320 no-strings-attached prize.

00:28:25.360 In 2018, it was awarded to Me Too creator Tarana Burke,

00:28:29.080 Beth Ann McLaughlin, and Shara Martz

00:28:31.160 as representatives of Me Too

00:28:33.020 and the Me Too in STEM movement

00:28:34.380 that highlighted people speaking up

00:28:36.000 against sexual harassment in technology.

00:28:38.060 The physical award is a glass orb,

00:28:39.920 And in a particularly disgusting piece of irony, because of his financial contributions to MIT, convicted sex offender and serial predator Epstein received a replica of that very award that same year, too.

00:28:52.440 I know you're infuriated now, but this is where the story gets a little bit brighter.

00:28:57.580 My friend Sabrina Hersey Issa is the kind of person I hope that you all have in your lives.

00:29:01.940 Mentor doesn't really cover just how impactful she's been in my own life.

00:29:06.100 She's a human rights technologist and the founder of Be Bold Media. 0.96

00:29:09.020 And Sabrina has never stopped uplifting other women or speaking truth to power, even when she gets shit for it. 0.92

00:29:15.120 Sabrina had never spoken to Ottawa, but she did read her story. 0.94

00:29:18.460 A friend of mine sent me a link to Ottawa's op-ed in the MIT student newspaper.

00:29:25.880 And when I read it, I thought it was so, at first I thought this was so beautifully written.

00:29:31.300 And it was written from a place of love.

00:29:33.400 leadership and from clearly this was a voice of someone who cares deeply not just for women and

00:29:42.900 children but also for a community. Then I saw the arc of how her op-ed was being received in the MIT

00:29:51.100 community and in the broader technology community and that is when things started to not sit well

00:29:56.180 with me. In our, in Bridget, our shared women in technology community, I saw Ottawa's op-ed being

00:30:03.920 received as like, this is a brave call for a student, but it also, I saw a lot of echoing

00:30:11.120 of helplessness from very powerful women in technology and a lot of wringing of hands

00:30:17.220 and a lot of, oh, what do we do now? Or I feel hopeless. And when I read Ottawa's op-ed, 0.93

00:30:24.440 I felt the opposite of hopeless. I felt hope. I felt, oh, if this is what someone could say with so much to lose and so much on the line, then anything is possible.

00:30:35.860 And then I saw it absorbed in the broader public conversation around Epstein and MIT. And I saw Ottawa's being demonized and being framed. I saw Ottawa's public leadership being framed as a problem instead of a blessing.

00:30:56.920 And I was not okay watching that. I saw, you know, Reddit forums where people were like, if she doesn't like it, she can go back to Africa. I saw a lot of hate being spewed on Twitter.

00:31:08.360 I saw, so like the further the rings of influence went out, the more I saw this woman's brave call of public leadership being received, how most Black women who are moral, who practice moral courage in public spaces being received.

00:31:27.940 And I was not okay with that. And you know me and you know, I've walked through fires in the past where that was the arc that played out. And I knew I could not in good conscience say that, do nothing and be okay with that or say nothing and do it and be okay with that.

00:31:51.940 More There Are No Girls on the internet after this quick break.

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00:33:00.420 when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent

00:33:08.240 my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart

00:33:14.260 and these are the survivor files i just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying

00:33:21.920 shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable

00:33:28.560 i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was 0.90

00:33:36.400 someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled

00:33:43.880 and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them they're stories

00:33:49.500 about what it takes to make it out alive listen to the survivor files with elizabeth smart

00:33:55.240 on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts if your bookshelf and your

00:34:02.240 for you page are equally important to your personality welcome home this is prose society

00:34:08.660 the weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for thought daughters pop culture

00:34:13.760 obsessives and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same

00:34:17.800 level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:34:23.020 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this

00:34:27.560 story. I'm obsessed. So obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to

00:34:32.960 the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real

00:34:38.700 messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for

00:34:44.660 literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a

00:34:50.220 little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app,

00:34:56.000 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages.

00:35:03.620 And we're back. Even though they had never met, Sabrina was inspired by Ottawa's actions at MIT.

00:35:09.800 She remembered all the times in her own career that she spoke out against sexism and racism

00:35:13.620 and got vitriol for it.

00:35:15.820 Speaking out takes guts and leadership. 0.97

00:35:17.920 And Sabrina couldn't rewatch the pattern 1.00

00:35:19.600 of a woman without institutional power behind her 1.00

00:35:21.760 being criticized for daring to speak up for what's right.

00:35:24.700 Even as Ronan Farrow was praised

00:35:26.420 for doing the exact same thing.

00:35:28.540 And while his reporting was a big part

00:35:30.260 of why Ido stepped down,

00:35:31.720 it wasn't Farrow who was risking his personal safety

00:35:34.000 by speaking up.

00:35:35.100 It was Ottawa.

00:35:36.320 The thing about this that really struck me

00:35:38.160 was not just the vulnerability of her visibility

00:35:43.480 Like when she did step up and speak out and say something, she was met with not even no support, but with a lot of hatred and anger.

00:35:52.780 But the invisibility of her leadership when a white guy says the same thing that she said, and he's not even a part of the MIT community.

00:36:03.860 His safety, Ronan Farrell's safety was never in question.

00:36:07.620 And I wasn't okay with watching yet another pattern of someone outside of a community and institution with prestige be validated as a legitimate voice.

00:36:21.640 I didn't want my silence to be complicit in continuing that pattern. 0.82

00:36:29.200 Sabrina thought that Ottawa should get some kind of recognition for her actions at MIT. 0.94

00:36:32.940 That's when Sabrina got the idea for the Bold Prize. 0.96

00:36:35.140 MIT has this thing called the Disobedience Prize. It is a $250,000 cash award, no strings attached, given to social change leaders who speak truth to power and practice moral leadership and ethics.

00:36:51.200 And I thought MIT has no right to say what ethical leadership looks like if they are letting this man stay in this role, if they're letting this happen to young black women in their community.

00:37:06.660 So I was like, hey, I have a voice and I have power and I can do something and I can say something.

00:37:14.060 I wanted this young woman to know that I see her.

00:37:16.420 So, and then I was like, you know what? Why don't I give you an award? So I said, would it be okay if I crowdfunded a leadership prize for you? And she was like, that would be really sweet. Thank you so much.

00:37:29.040 I wrote a letter that you see on boldprice.com where I said that, you know, I do not know her, but I admire her courage and that I wasn't OK watching a young black woman speak up and lead with courage and and not only not be seen, but also be harmed for it.

00:37:53.940 I think if we need to, there's the world as it is, and the world as it should be. And if we want to build the world as it should be, then we need to reframe what leadership looks like so that when these events happen, people like Ottawa are not seen as the bad actors, they're seen as the future. And they're seen as world builders.

00:38:14.440 So I wanted to use my voice and my power and my relationships and resources to shift the conversation from blame to leadership, from the world as it is to the world that it should be.

00:38:27.020 And that it is not just her right to speak out to protect women in her community, but also it's within all of our abilities to speak out and do the same thing.

00:38:40.500 The other piece that I was that did not sit well with me was watching really powerful people that we both know, not recognize their own power and agency. So I want I believe in the power of invitation. And I don't believe that they weren't doing anything out of malice or ignorance. But the fact that an opportunity for them to participate in something different and transformative wasn't there. So I decided to create it.

00:39:07.300 we are going to refashion the disobedience prize

00:39:10.880 and we're going to make it the bold prize.

00:39:12.920 And I called it the bold prize for three specific reasons.

00:39:17.380 One, when Ethan Zuckerman first announced his thing,

00:39:20.580 that's when I was like, someone should give him an award.

00:39:22.700 The second thing in Ottawa's piece,

00:39:25.480 she uses the phrase, I stand by my advisor.

00:39:29.820 It's Ethan Zuckerman's her advisor.

00:39:31.520 She wrote, I stand by my advisor

00:39:33.060 and his bold decision to step down.

00:39:34.820 And I was like, oh, that word bold.

00:39:36.100 And then three, when I was in a situation where I was speaking out against sexual misconduct and racial injustice, one of the people who were complicit in covering it up had the audacity to call me bold.

00:39:48.200 And I thought to myself, yeah, you know, I am bold and maybe this wouldn't be so hard if more people were.

00:39:54.320 MIT's Media Lab is called the Future Factory, but do we even want a future designed by powerful

00:40:05.400 people that would look the other way when it comes to abuse? What kind of future would that

00:40:09.440 leave us with? The choices that MIT made to enable Epstein and be complicit in covering for sexual

00:40:20.360 predator those were deliberate decisions and choices that were made outside of a moral compass

00:40:28.460 and so to somehow envelope that into like they get to be leaders on what ethics look like and

00:40:40.080 not only just what ethics look like but what the future can be it can be in a whole I don't want

00:40:45.700 a future imagined by people who participate in systems like this. So I want to build a future

00:40:53.220 with leaders like Ottawa who not only make choices to do the hard, see something hard and do it

00:41:02.280 anyways, but are willing to absorb the blowback that comes with it because it's the right thing

00:41:08.120 to do. Through crowdfunding, Sabrina raised over $40,000 for Ottawa as the inaugural recipient

00:41:14.000 of the bold prize. The average donation was $75. I was just so in awe. I was like, oh my God,

00:41:22.000 thank you so much. But not just because, I mean, this was a stranger and not just any

00:41:27.680 she was a black woman as well. And had just somehow like seen my pain from far away or

00:41:33.560 seen the struggle and was like, I need to do something for this woman. And so that was the

00:41:38.640 true like prize for me. It was like how many people came together to support my voice when

00:41:43.740 I had felt for a long time that I was on the outside of things.

00:41:47.680 I feel just for journalistic integrity purposes, I should say, I'm one of the fun, I'm one

00:41:51.900 of the donators of that.

00:41:53.320 Oh, really?

00:41:54.000 Oh, thank you.

00:41:54.580 You know, I, I, I agree.

00:41:57.680 I thought the idea that Sabrina, who is this, has been a really powerful force in my own

00:42:02.560 life just personally, um, would reach out to you like that.

00:42:06.200 I thought that was so beautiful.

00:42:07.280 And it really goes back to what you were saying at the beginning of our interview about sort

00:42:11.140 being lifted up by this community of Black women and lifting them up as well. Like, it's just,

00:42:16.980 it is really special. And I think it was important for me, even though, you know, you and I had never

00:42:23.100 met, it was important for me to let you know that people out there had your back. We were rooting

00:42:28.140 for you, like watching what you were doing, like what your bravery and your courage reverberates,

00:42:37.560 You never know who is going to be seeing what you did, and that's going to be the reason why they speak up.

00:42:45.000 Thank you.

00:42:45.940 Yeah, I think that's also been another big thing that I've gained is you just never know whose life you're going to touch or where your words will reach.

00:42:59.300 and there's been so many like random people who were you know saying what you're saying like

00:43:04.600 oh you gave me the courage to do this or you gave me the courage to write this and to say this and

00:43:09.420 whatever and I've been like okay like this can be a movement like the bold prize can be a movement

00:43:14.400 like it can be something that people aspire to get I didn't have a vendetta against Joey

00:43:20.720 like personally either so it wasn't like I won him fired or to resign and would only be happy

00:43:28.380 once that happened, because clearly this issue was deeply structural within MIT as well. So I

00:43:35.200 felt vindicated after, like maybe, you know, time after when, you know, with the bowl prize and

00:43:42.040 with the letters of support and, you know, by people encouraging me to like keep speaking my

00:43:47.540 mind. But we still have so much work to do, like as an institution here.

00:43:53.160 What's your advice for other women about speaking truth to power, even when it's tough?

00:43:57.380 the first is I really think it is a lonely process and it isn't easy I've you know I've

00:44:02.720 learned that firsthand and I think I just might sound like kind of mythical but I think drawing

00:44:10.580 power from others before you do what you need to do is so important because you're gonna need so

00:44:17.840 much energy to keep going and to like not backtrack in what you said because people don't agree with

00:44:23.480 you. And so like, if that's reading, or if that's talking to actual people, or if that's listening

00:44:31.480 to Lizzo, like, literally drawing power from other women in history and time, because there's so many

00:44:38.180 who have done the thing that you want to do, is so important, gives you stamina. 1.00

00:44:44.040 Institutions like MIT are powerful. But so are women. So is community. Women being in community 0.99

00:44:50.040 with each other and lifting each other up 1.00

00:44:52.040 and inspiring each other to speak our truths?

00:44:54.360 Well, that's powerful enough to create new systems. 1.00

00:44:56.820 And women can envision bolder futures 1.00

00:44:58.520 and brighter realities when we come together. 0.96

00:45:02.320 There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

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00:45:40.360 Pro Society is a weekly podcast

00:45:42.240 that's part book club,

00:45:43.500 part group chat for anyone

00:45:44.580 who thinks Pride and Prejudice

00:45:45.840 and Love Island

00:45:46.540 deserve the same level of discourse.

00:45:48.660 Each week, we're connecting

00:45:49.600 the dots between books the internet and pop culture with your favorite writers book talk

00:45:54.220 creators and plenty of overthought opinions i'm obsessed i'm obsessed listen to pro society on

00:46:00.160 the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts i survived nine months in

00:46:07.140 captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed

00:46:12.520 them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files every week i'm with survivors

00:46:18.800 who lived through the unthinkable,

00:46:20.780 abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:46:24.620 These are stories about what it takes

00:46:26.520 to make it out alive.

00:46:28.440 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart

00:46:31.220 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

00:46:34.280 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:46:36.320 I'm Nick Turturro.

00:46:37.360 You probably know me from NYPD Blue,

00:46:39.280 The Longest Yard, or Spike Lee's Black Klansman.

00:46:42.340 And on my new podcast,

00:46:43.520 Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro,

00:46:45.100 I deliver pizza to a new guest.

00:46:47.400 I've shared a slice with everyone.

00:46:48.800 from Seth Rollins.

00:46:50.040 What are you doing with my belt?

00:46:51.280 To Bill Burr.

00:46:52.180 I don't think I've ever met somebody

00:46:54.240 so exactly out of their mind as I am.

00:46:57.280 And now we even have more great guests coming up,

00:46:59.900 including the great John Turturro.

00:47:01.940 It's called happiness.

00:47:03.040 Delivering happiness.

00:47:04.100 And many, many more.

00:47:05.560 Open your free iHeartRadio app,

00:47:07.540 search Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro,

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00:47:22.440 offered advice to aspiring actors

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00:47:30.700 You're hired to fill the space with you.

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00:47:39.280 or wherever you get your podcasts.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - May 11, 2021

Tangoti Classic： Bill Gates' divorce sheds light on Jeffrey Epstein's deep tech connections

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