00:03:45.800And you, I mean, you always, there's so much going on right now and so much in the technology sector and so much in so many sectors that I just have a lot of trust in you, Bridget.
00:03:59.780So you have been very well missed, which is, yeah, I think something I just made up right then.
00:04:11.400If anyone watches Real Housewives of New York, there's a meme of Dorinda saying, how have I been? Not well, bitch. That's how I've been answering that question. Not well.1.00
00:04:23.620i mean i have i have gone i had the worst year of my life last year and i i do want to say like
00:04:32.420a big part of that was annie and samantha you both really being such good friends and good
00:04:40.200collaborators and like really giving me a lot of space and so i i want to say like thank you for
00:04:45.060all the support um and so i i've had a personally rough go and then on top of that everything else
00:04:53.220that's happening it feels like i went offline when i came back the world was spiraling and so
00:04:58.540yeah i i have been experiencing despair personally and then i feel like everybody else kind of also
00:05:04.060met me in despair and it's like oh we're all in despair together welcome which is essentially
00:05:10.280crying in each other's arms for different reasons but it all meshes together because the world's on
00:05:15.720fire yeah yeah yeah yeah and here we are like yay rigid tell us about it come talk to us about this
00:05:26.060stuff please help us make sense of things well we were talking off mic about how complicated it is
00:05:32.580as people who make podcasts and make content it's like you have to find this balance of like not
00:05:38.320wanting to severely bum everybody out and you know we're not just people who make podcasts like
00:05:43.700I listen to podcasts for fun and I find myself being like, you know, I can't handle anything real right now.
00:05:51.340I need to just distract myself with some fluff.
00:05:54.340I think we're all, both as content creators and as people who take in content and appreciate media, we're all trying to find this sweet spot.
00:06:03.620I don't know if y'all listening can identify with this, but I've really been struggling with how much to take in to not have me completely be spiraling
00:06:12.100and how much to take in to keep me informed.
00:06:15.040It's like I'm trying to find that balance.
00:06:17.740Right. I think the big conversation is like knowing that we have a responsibility
00:06:21.580and making sure like we're not the complete, like we can't stop everything,
00:06:28.560but we do have a responsibility in witnessing it and making sure we're calling it out.
00:06:33.000But at the same time, sometimes that means that our well-being is out the window when we see too much.
00:06:44.980And so having that balance of being like, yes, I'm ready to be refreshed and fight again is so hard to do when it feels like it's a constant new fight.
00:06:52.400Exactly. I saw this post that I feel like really summed up where I'm at, where it was like, certainly if I read one more piece of content or one more news article, instead of going to sleep, I will feel totally in control of what is happening.
00:07:07.200Like, yes, that could have been written by me.
00:07:08.960yes oh my goodness yes well okay speaking of uh we were discussing a friend of mine
00:07:19.840uh who every day is sending me these texts where i can tell she feels she has no control
00:07:26.420and i'm kind of like you need to you need to find something else like don't not all day not
00:07:32.540all the time this is not good for you but we are going to talk about one of the things she used to
00:07:37.460do to distract herself which was go to target um the the store target that was like one of her
00:07:45.880favorite things and now she's very conflicted about all of it and i know that we're going to
00:07:53.060talk about that virgin yes yes and so i have to say like shout out to annie's friend because
00:07:58.380her and me both i there's a target that is very close to my apartment it's walking distance to
00:08:03.060my apartment i'll just like walk around target just for like a scenery change like the same way
00:08:08.280people will be like oh take a walk in the park i'm like oh let me see what target has it's a
00:08:11.600terrible habit y'all can call me out like totally totally own that it's not good behavior but i
00:08:19.400heretofore have loved target like there's just something about walking around like they really
00:08:25.520like get the people who are shopping there and i think that's one of the reasons why the whole
00:08:32.160thing with Target and DEI is it feels personal to me. It feels kind of heartbreaking because
00:08:38.980listen, Walmart, stores like that, it's like, they're not stores where I would imagine
00:08:44.260there are people who see me and like, you know, get me as a shopper. Target feels,
00:08:50.420occupies a very different space in my, in my consciousness. So when I hear that some
00:08:55.460effery is happening with Target, I really don't like it. Does that make sense?
00:08:59.460Yeah. You definitely have to go through your list of like, well, that I can't go there anymore. I can't. And your list starts dwindling, especially when you like for the longest time, we kind of not champion because there's still a corporation at the end.
00:09:13.040But for a while, they were doing some things that were like, yay, finally, you're doing some good initiatives, at least bringing on great products for a diverse group of people, which is apparently the problem, and actually standing up for it, so it seemed.
00:09:29.960So to come back and be like, what the hell?
00:09:34.240So I want to get into all of that. But for folks who don't know what's going on, the Trump administration kicked off with a grip of executive orders, I guess, like targeting wokeness through things like overhauling DEI initiatives.
00:09:46.880So this happened in the federal government. Like currently, right now, folks who work on anything, even tangentially DEI related within the federal government, have been placed on leave. I live in D.C. and that is like what's happening with federal workers, both in the District of Columbia and nationally, is like a whole other conversation. It really is horrible. And I think it will impact all of us. I think we will all be less safe because of it. So I just wanted to name that.
00:10:15.420But when it comes to DEI, it is not just the public sector because Trump also issued executive
00:10:21.240orders meant to quash DEI programs in the private sector as well. He directed agency heads to drop
00:10:27.500lists of publicly traded companies to investigate their DEI programs. So this is not a totally new
00:10:34.340thing. I know that when I was on Stuff Mom Never Told You a while ago, we were talking about
00:10:38.340the Supreme Court decision back in 2023 about affirmative action. So another sort of side effect
00:10:44.600of that Supreme Court ruling was that some of these big private companies started reassessing
00:10:50.980the legality of their programs after that ruling. So it's not totally new, but Trump being in the
00:10:56.800White House and sort of starting off his administration with signaling all of this
00:11:01.260pressure on DEI programs really has taken it to a new level. Yes. And I feel like a lot of companies
00:11:07.940have come out of the woodwork, not just companies, but other universities and all this. And they're
00:11:12.340like yeah we'll just get rid of that as quickly as possible it's so ready to be like yep okay
00:11:17.400didn't want it gone yes so like i mean so like as somebody who covers technology i have really
00:11:25.480i'll say not shocked but disappointed when it comes to tech companies how quickly they were
00:11:32.560like gone gone gone after having to sit through years of listening to these companies talk about
00:11:39.100or maybe even lie about the way that they support women,
00:12:06.740So Facebook just immediately went along with Trump.
00:12:11.340Like, we'd be here all day if I listed all the ways.
00:12:14.140But just a taste, you know, obviously they rolled back their DEI programs.
00:12:17.680They rolled back fact-checking immediately.0.97
00:12:20.500They lifted restrictions on saying things like, quote, women are property on their platforms.
00:12:26.640And so if that is an attitude that you happen to hold, that women are property, you can say that on Facebook all day long and it is not a problem.
00:12:34.000You also saw Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg doing things like ordering the removal of tampons from all men's bathrooms in company offices.
00:12:43.420So these weird things where, as Mashable put it, this decision was not about cost cutting or efficiency.
00:12:50.340It took effort and served no practical purpose and sent a clear message about the company's shifting priority.
00:12:56.760So these things that are clearly like they're not about cost cutting, they're not about, you know, making the company more efficient.
00:13:02.860They're just about making it clear where they're at, which mission accomplished because I really have a very clear understanding of where Facebook is at.
00:13:11.600Zuckerberg, of course, went on a bunch of podcasts, dressed like a recently divorced nightclub promoter, and talked about how Facebook needs more, quote, masculine energy at their companies.
00:13:21.960Now, again, keep in mind, this is at a company that Time Magazine describes their current workforce as almost 70% male.
00:13:29.180So I guess that's, like, not male enough.0.99
00:13:33.920I don't know how much more male you can get other than like 100 percent, but OK.
00:13:38.180Which is kind of like the opposite, once again, of being like you want to be really masculine, but a part of your masculinity is like being impressive to women.
00:13:44.920So were you being so impressive towards each other?
00:13:58.160So he had a window where people didn't hate him.
00:14:01.300And what's funny is that I was just reading this study that was like, oh, remember when Mark Zuckerberg, like, changed his look and was trying to go for, like, a softer, gentler approach?
00:14:15.260But there is a study that apparently that little window where people didn't hate his guts did not last and had no lasting impact.
00:14:23.480So he really squandered that tiny sliver of goodwill that he got from people from that, like, one week or whatever where people didn't completely hate his guts.
00:14:31.460Right. I think the whistleblowers in his life just really was not having it.
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00:16:31.800If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:16:38.660This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
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00:17:38.140Speaking of big companies, we know that there were several big CEOs and executives that were aligned and excited to do exactly what Trump has been wanting to do, including Amazon, right?
00:17:49.840Yeah, they scaled back their DEI programs pretty quickly.
00:17:53.520Google. I will say two companies that did not immediately scale back DEI are Apple and
00:18:00.040Microsoft. Both of those companies kind of reaffirmed their commitment to DEI. Companies
00:18:05.640are so company, so I don't want to be like giving them too much rah-rah credit. Microsoft has been
00:18:10.460very chummy with Trump, but I do want to give credit where credit is due on DEI specifically
00:18:15.280because I do think like it's a choice. You know, one of the big companies that did not
00:18:21.240scale back to EI that we'll talk more about in a bit is Costco, right?
00:18:24.920And so these companies, even despite these executive orders, these companies don't have
00:18:31.400Immediately complying with these executive orders is a choice, right?
00:18:35.460And so I wouldn't even, like a lot of people have described this moment as sort of a mask
00:18:41.020off moment, especially when it comes to tech companies.
00:18:43.760I wouldn't even say I agree with this.
00:18:45.760I don't think that these companies have like necessarily not wanted to do inclusion work all along.
00:18:55.240I don't think that that I think the people who run these companies will just align themselves with whoever is in power and whatever is the favorable position at the moment.
00:19:04.780And so I don't even think it's a mask off moment.
00:19:06.880Like, I don't think Mark Zuckerberg is showing his true colors.
00:19:12.100These are people who don't have genuine values or backbone.
00:19:16.260And so if you don't really value anything, it's not really a mask off moment because your value is just power and money.
00:19:23.620Right. And it's interesting because we've had so many conversations about places like Google and tech companies like them and how their initial setup was kind of like, we're the cool nerds that you want to come work for.
00:19:37.140We're the ones that's offering, you know, unlimited PTO, but we really don't think you should take it.0.99
00:19:41.180We're the ones that's bringing in women of color to be leaders, but not really because we want to fire them because they're talking too much and giving too many suggestions.1.00
00:19:49.080Like, it's interesting to see how quickly that they were like, oh, finally, we don't have to pretend to be the cool nerds and just be the alpha males that we've been training to be, essentially.0.99
00:20:00.440So I actually think you're spot on. And I do think we really need to have more conversations about the cultural dynamic of some of these tech leaders and some of these tech companies, because I think it is how we sort of got into this mess in some ways.
00:20:16.780Because, you know, if you think back to, like, you know, think back to the day, the early days of platforms like Instagram, the early days of iPhone, technology and the people who made it occupied a very specific place in our cultural popular imagination, right?
00:20:33.000It was Google offices that looked really cool, that had pinball machines and open offices, right?
00:20:38.860Google's motto used to be don't be evil until they dropped that motto officially in 2018.
00:20:44.100I think they might have just taken off the don't, right?
00:20:46.080Maybe it's now like a little evil for a treat is fine.
00:20:49.140I think that we gave them so much space and so much runway to be these cool nerds who
00:20:55.060are going to be using technology to improve all of our lives.
00:20:58.060And we kind of trusted that that's what they were doing.
00:21:02.780And I think that because of that trust, now when we check back in and it's like, wait,
00:21:07.800are you guys actually still invested in building a better future?
00:21:11.160And they're like, no, we're invested in making money to exploiting you, actually.
00:21:14.800I think that's where we're at. And so I think it's really, you're so right to bring up the sort of cultural dynamics that are running some of these companies and in tune shaping our understanding and attitude around them.
00:21:27.520Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. One of the best, almost, like, immediate examples was TikTok. TikTok that's, like, trying to fight the government. I'm here for you. We're here for your voice. And we want to represent for your First Amendment rights. And then being like, oh, we love Donald Trump. He's gonna save us. Let's give money to him.
00:21:46.060Like, it's such a quick turnaround. We were all like, oh, we were rooting for you for a split second. Like, we were kind of doubting you on a few things. But now, like, oh, they were such a quick turnaround of exactly what we saw play out, except it took a little while longer.
00:22:01.280I had the exact same feeling. Like, I remember thinking, oh, TikTok CEO is like this young guy. He's so savvy, blah, blah, blah. How quickly he turned heel. Right. So, like, don't trust any of these leaders. I don't care how savvy they look. I don't care how young they are. Like, a tech company will break your heart. A tech company will exploit you, take your money, get rich off of it, and then expect you to champion them like a damn luminary because of it. Absolutely not.
00:22:28.860I mean, again, Target for a split second. I really we really were like, oh, they're bringing in black women on products and we want to cheer that on.
00:22:38.840They're standing up for the LGBTQ plus community. We'd love that.
00:22:43.200You know, really seeming like they're paying beyond their minimum wage and people are being like, we're excited.
00:22:51.640So on January 24th, Target announced they were going to be rolling back their DEI initiatives, including programs to foster and promote Black-owned businesses in its stores.
00:23:00.460This is following Trump's signing of the executive order, ending DEI programs federally.
00:23:04.860So they sent around a memo by staff member Kira Fernandez, Target's chief community impact and equity officer and a Black woman herself.
00:23:14.220In this memo, the company said they were going to stop conducting external diversity surveys
00:23:18.360and submitting information to the Human Rights Campaign Corporate Equality Index,
00:23:22.220which evaluates corporate policies on LGBTQ plus inclusion.
00:23:27.600throughout 2025, we'll be accelerating action in key areas and implementing changes
00:23:32.060with the goal of driving growth and staying in step with the evolving external landscape.
00:23:37.380And so just like what you were saying, Sam, this is particularly notable because Target
00:23:43.340really did seem like one of those retailers that was making and signaling investment in
00:23:49.780things like inclusion, especially after 2020. So Target, their headquarters is based in
00:23:54.760Minneapolis where George Floyd was killed. So in 2020, Target reiterated its Racial Equity Action
00:24:00.580and Change Initiative, which involves things like anti-racism training for employees and
00:24:04.900prioritize hiring and promoting Black staff. And they really looked to grow the number of Black
00:24:09.560owned businesses at Target. In 2021, Target pledged to invest $2 billion in Black owned businesses by
00:24:15.980the end of 2025 as part of this program. And so here's the thing that I always like to talk about
00:24:22.260when it comes to things like DEI and inclusion. These programs don't just exist because they're
00:24:28.100like the nice thing to do, which they are. They're good business. They make companies money. These
00:24:33.860companies exist to make money. And it turns out that inclusion is good for business. Target's
00:24:39.220Chief Executive Officer Brian Cornell told Fortune's Leadership Next podcast in 2023 that all of these like inclusion and diversity focused initiatives, quote, fueled so much of our growth over the last nine years.
00:24:52.320So they are definitely cashing in and making money off of traditionally marginalized people as a consumer block.
00:24:59.240i wonder how close to that goal were they when 2025 happened like just giving those billions
00:25:08.460of investments like were they actually that close or maybe i wonder conspiracy theories
00:25:13.260like they were nowhere near so they're like let's just roll it back and pretend like it never
00:25:15.780happened because we're not going to meet this i mean that wouldn't surprise me whenever so this
00:25:21.120is like a like a hot tip for listeners whenever a company is like we pledge to do xyz thing right
00:25:26.640But it's always good practice to follow up because half the time they've done nothing and they're just not counting on anybody following up. So it's like they can say anything. They could say we pledged to do whatever. And it's like if no one's following up, they can just get all the good PR and goodwill without actually doing the thing that they voluntarily said they were going to do.
00:25:44.740right no one asked for these numbers you brought this up this i'm sure you've run into this before
00:25:50.040bridget as uh a medium that depends on advertisers sometimes like during like pride month they'll be
00:25:57.120like this company is gonna do this and do this and do this and i'll be like okay tell me how
00:26:03.480silence never hear from them again like hmm yeah i wasn't expecting i wouldn't have said that if
00:26:11.960I thought you were going to, like, ask a follow-up.
00:26:26.340They're going to give the money to those organizations and then write it off as their taxes, as if they donated the money and not the customers.
00:26:38.980honestly like that whole rolling up of like the change and then everybody's like don't do that0.98
00:26:44.500because they're using this as a tax break i was like oh yeah that's all that oh damn it
00:26:50.260yeah why are you so evil i mean like that's the thing like i want to be clear it's not like i'm0.90
00:26:55.940it's not like i like i as someone who is very critical of things like capitalism
00:27:01.340i didn't think target was really my friend or really my ally even when they did this stuff so
00:27:06.640I'm not expecting any corporation or any company to, like, truly, meaningfully be an ally.
00:27:11.760But I do think these companies that go out of their way to signal to me, you know, as a Black woman consumer that, like, we care about you.
00:27:20.120We, like, understand that you are fueling our profit margin.
00:27:24.840So, like, let's try to be aligned with, like, giving you the customer experience that you want.
00:27:30.980And so especially a company like Target, I don't know if folks really understand the role that Target plays, especially for Black women.
00:27:41.500Like, you know, back in the day, like back in the day when I first grew my hair out natural, there were not a lot of mainstream stores where you could walk in and find a well-stocked natural hair care aisle.
00:27:57.500And so it really, I think, went out of their way to curry a lot of favor with Black women as a consumer base because of that kind of thing, being like, oh, what is it that you actually use?
00:28:08.180What is it that you're actually looking for? How can we fill the niches in your, you know, shopping situation?
00:28:13.820I think Target did that very well. And I think it really positioned them as a place where they were signaling to the people who actually give them money, like, hey, we see y'all, we know what y'all need.
00:28:27.400As The Cut points out, the retailer's Black-owned brands span categories from home to apparel and beauty, including hair care brands The Doe, Camille Rose, and the Viral Miel and beauty brand The Lip Bar.
00:28:40.280These brands fill a void in the market, making products for various skin tones and hair textures available.
00:28:45.640For example, The Doe has its viral curl-defining mousse beloved by the natural hair community.
00:28:49.960so it really did play a like particular role i think in a lot of black women's shopping diets
00:28:57.780yeah i mean and it was like you said a mainstream store to do it and it felt
00:29:06.920i don't know we like you've said when we have said they're companies they're not allies but
00:29:15.360it felt nice to be like okay i can go here and this place is with me kind of gets me
00:29:23.740this seems like a it doesn't feel as bad that i'm going here right you know i don't feel the
00:29:30.920same guilt maybe it's going somewhere else i think this also brings into the conversation about
00:29:36.220the fact that they need to like erase this as in like take this out because of why so this is
00:29:45.660obviously a bigger conversation and trying to make a publicity stunt essentially just like
00:29:54.300bringing off products and bringing saying like okay so diversity and equity and inclusion
00:29:58.740um in these being what does that mean exactly and in this conversation it's pretty much saying okay
00:30:04.880And we will now exclude a certain group of people that were excluded previously before this time.
00:30:12.480And by doing so, we're going to make white supremacists feel more comfortable because they were uncomfortable with, I don't know, shopping with people of color.
00:30:26.620Why is this so important that Target needs to do this?
00:30:29.140Like, they were making money off of this, and they're so afraid of, or I guess maybe they are just white supremacists, one of those two things, in order to satisfy a group of people who didn't even know it was a thing.
00:30:44.260For, like, the longest time, people were just like, oh, what is this new stuff?
00:30:48.240Except for people finally said, this is Black-owned, and they're like, oh my God, what?1.00
00:30:51.960Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question.0.55
00:30:53.960I honestly think that in this moment, it's just about signaling alignment with Trump and the new administration. I think that, like, you know, Target has been making good money off of marketing toward marginalized people, right?
00:31:11.260I mean, y'all remember when the last time that Target was in the crosshairs of a lot of extremists because they had a well-stocked, robust pride section for pride, things like that, like, and Target caved on that.
00:31:26.000Like, I will say, like, so I think it really just illustrates that these companies, whatever is in power, whatever is the like they don't actually have values or backbones.
00:31:39.180And we shouldn't necessarily even be expecting them to.
00:31:41.460They'll just cave and bend to whoever is in power.
00:31:44.480And what makes it even more frustrating is like after they they will do that after they signaled that they want to be more aligned with these communities.
00:31:54.940So Chantel Powell, who was a Black entrepreneur who makes a deodorant for kids called Play Pits, which was stocked at Target, she put it really well.
00:32:18.880Like, they don't really have any kind of, like, values to genuinely stick to or affirm.
00:32:24.360Like, in moments of, you know, upheaval, the thing that you can always go back to as your North Star is values.
00:32:32.280Like, as a content creator, I had to have a whole conversation when Trump took power of, like, well, what are my values and what am I doing in this moment to actually serve the people that I want to be in community with?
00:32:42.580When you have values that is always your North Star, these companies do not have any value.
00:32:47.740So, of course, they're going to blow wherever the wind blows.
00:32:50.020right they're gonna do the bottom line which there's so much again like in this conversation
00:32:56.440about how who was easily discarded first and and this is all about the virtue signaling as uh they
00:33:02.780want to say because as robust as their like stock was it wasn't like you still had to like purposely
00:33:10.400find it and it was a shock to see it like it's i remember the many times like oh that's cute
00:33:15.340Oh, look, it's, you know, a black owner or a black creator who did this. That's amazing because it's one out of 100. You know, to see it was notable because there wasn't that many. So even the most like diverse products were just literally one out of 50, one out of 100. Like it still wasn't.0.65
00:33:34.340I remember back when extremists were targeting Target because of the Pride stuff and the LGBTQ stuff, people would get upset because Target sold chest binders, right, for trans folks.
00:33:46.240And it's like, OK, so you don't need a chest binder. Why is it so horrible that like out of out of 100 like when you go into the underpants section of Target, 99.99999% of garments are designed for cis people and they have one product for trans people.
00:34:03.120And it's the end of the world. Like, how is that really the biggest complaint that you can make right now?
00:34:10.060Right. I mean, our sports bras alone.0.98
00:34:37.460So they would go out trying to look for anything
00:34:40.900that they're like, this is controversial, this is this.
00:34:43.040Why does this have to be this? And half the time, again, it was misinformation or disinformation and being like this black product for the black community was often created by white corporations.0.84
00:34:56.860Absolutely. So when Target announced their intention to pull back from these initiatives, people were not happy. Some, like Minneapolis Councilmember Jason Chavez and Strike for All, which is an advocacy organization run by former Senator Anita Turner, called for a boycott of Target in response, which is currently still going on.
00:35:15.620And this was a little bit tricky in that Target backing away from DEI does not mean that, like, Black and brown-owned companies are going to be, you know, pulled from the shelves.
00:35:26.240And so you saw a lot of Black creators and Black entrepreneurs being like, well, wait, if you boycott Target and you're not going to go to Target, it will hurt us even more because that's less people who are buying our items from the shelves.
00:35:38.360Maya Smith, who is a Black woman and the founder of The Dough, the hair care brand,
00:35:43.540shared this statement on Instagram saying,
00:35:45.980Pulling Black dollars from these retailers doesn't hurt the corporations as much as it hurts the brands you love.
00:35:51.000It also feeds into false narratives that were only here because of DEI initiatives,
00:35:55.480not because of the countless sacrifices and creativity we've poured into creating a lasting impact on the textured hair category through The Dough.
00:36:02.760You might say like, oh, well, I'll just buy directly from this brand rather than buying it from Target. But Powell, the founder of Play Pits, that kid's deodorant company, said that buying directly online might not actually be so helpful for some of these Black-owned brands.
00:36:18.000She said, big box retailers are a predictable revenue stream.
00:36:22.460Online, I might make $2,000 one day and $200 the next.
00:36:26.200But with Target, I have a consistent flow of income.
00:36:29.000It's also a convenient opportunity for my customers to shop my products.1.00
00:36:35.140And so I get where these creators are coming from.
00:36:39.680I do want to spotlight that one of my favorite Black creators, who has the brand Oh Happy
00:36:43.580Dani immediately announced that she was cutting ties with Target and like phasing her stuff off0.90
00:36:48.820the shelves as soon as Target made this announcement. But, you know, I do understand
00:36:54.740the complexities here because it is not a clear cut situation. And I don't want to say that I
00:37:02.640have the answer, but I understand that people want solidarity from some of these Black creators that
00:37:09.200they see on the shelves at Target. But I also understand that, hey, if you're a Black creator
00:37:13.500and a Black entrepreneur, you do have a harder time0.98
00:37:16.580compared to your non-Black counterparts, right?0.57
00:37:18.900And so, you know, people are basically saying, like,
00:37:21.240well, why should I be expected to miss out even more
00:37:24.240because of a decision that Target made?
00:37:25.960I can really understand both positions.
00:37:28.800Right. It's one thing to say we're going to boycott McDonald's
00:37:32.400and Starbucks and the such, but doing specific things
00:37:36.380with these creators who have brands, it is hard.
00:37:40.840Like, we talked about the fact that also it's really hard
00:37:42.860for individuals in general to try to figure out what's a good company because all these grocery
00:37:48.200stores or all these stores, they have something, whether it's anti-union, whether they don't pay
00:37:52.900their employees enough or whether they're rolling back DEI or whether they, you know, gave to the
00:37:58.220Republican Party or Donald Trump themselves. It's really hard to try to do conscientious buying
00:38:04.360when you are stuck. And again, we talked about disabilities previously about how it's also
00:38:10.820impossible to not do delivery service for a lot of disabled people, even though like corporations
00:38:15.700like Amazon is awful. However, they give access to those who can't go out. Like it's such a hard
00:38:22.160conversation about what to do and how to truly support without hurting the people you're trying
00:38:27.920to support. Yeah, I've really been struggling with this in my personal life as well. Like I
00:38:35.800I am trying to boycott Target and Amazon, but, you know, easy for me to say as an able-bodied person with discretionary income and no kids, right?
00:38:49.500Like, if you're a busy new parent or somebody with a disability, I don't begrudge you anything that you got to do to get through the day.
00:38:55.140But I know that I personally do have some wiggle room, right?
00:38:58.600And so what's been interesting to me is I'm I wouldn't say I'm boycotting any particular company for any particular stance.
00:39:06.280However, I'm really just reassessing the role that these companies play in my habits more generally.
00:39:13.460Right. Like Amazon is a terrible company.
00:39:16.640They are terrible for the world in so many reasons.
00:39:19.540And Amazon's owner, Jeff Bezos, is incredibly buddy buddy with Trump.0.99
00:39:23.720When Trump was inaugurated, you saw the whole line of tech assholes, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos.0.98
00:39:30.140I live in D.C. Jeff Bezos owns Amazon.0.97
00:39:33.980Jeff Bezos owns my where I get my health care, one medical.
00:39:37.800He bought that. Jeff Bezos owns my local newspaper, The Washington Post.
00:39:41.920He owns that. Jeff Bezos owns where I do my grocery shopping, Whole Foods.
00:39:45.420He owns that. Like how much of my life does one billionaire get to control?
00:39:50.820And so it's not even about one specific policy. It's more that I am trying to reject that entire dynamic. And one way that I'm doing that on a small personal level is just trying to buy, shop small, shop local, my local places when I can and shop less in general.
00:40:09.680Like, do I need to be consuming so much? Who is this supporting? Who am I empowering with my dollar when I go in and mindlessly buy something I don't even really need? And so I don't think it has to be some kind of a big boycott necessarily. You can just through small ways decide, you know, I want I want to participate in this kind of an economy less and less. And I just think that's true for so many people.
00:42:12.940survivors who live through the unthinkable
00:42:15.980I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:42:20.440I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:42:28.060They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:42:31.960But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:42:35.420They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:42:38.540Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:42:47.480If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:42:53.420This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:43:05.900I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:43:13.000I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
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00:43:39.620Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:44:48.100I'm here to share my experience as a retail worker.
00:44:50.360I've worked retail at four different chains, and I ask that other retail workers chime in.
00:44:54.280They absolutely have the ability to work because these businesses care way more about their numbers than the average consumer who has never worked retail realizes.
00:45:02.000When I was working for a corporate-owned women's clothing store, we'd get hourly updates about meeting our goals, literally piped into our ears.
00:45:09.320Numbers got reported to the team daily.
00:45:11.300Everyone knew when we were hitting our goals
00:45:38.320They're doing it because it does matter.
00:45:39.980So that's just one retail worker's opinion. But I got to think that they're on the money with something because, you know, especially in a time where we don't feel like we have a lot of power or a lot of agency or a lot of voice, our money, our spending power, our economic power really does have weight like that is power.
00:45:59.360Right. I'm glad you read that because I go back and forth on, again, understanding what is effective and what isn't, whether a boycott is or isn't effective, who is able to do what and participate and who is being hurt by some of these protests.
00:46:15.180Of course, I don't give a shit about the corporations.0.99
00:46:35.360I was like, I feel too dirty because I was depending on it so much because I didn't want to go out to Target and actually walk about and see people.
00:46:43.120But all of that in conversation of like, if this does work, then we need to be shouting it louder.
00:46:48.980Because, yeah, we want to at least be effective and doing the things as effectively as possible if we are able to do so and being prepared for it.
00:46:58.840And honestly, outside of a couple of TikTok posts, I haven't seen much about it. Have y'all?
00:48:54.800But like I can do in small ways, I can opt out of that system more and more like I've been really, you know, it sounds so small and stupid.0.98
00:49:05.080And in some ways I understand that it is. But like I've been growing herbs on my balcony.0.91
00:49:10.100So when I need fresh herbs, I'm not running to Target. I just have them on my balcony.
00:49:14.320I've been cooking more at home. I've been like rather than going out and buying new stuff, I'm like using free groups and like, you know, things like that.
00:49:21.960of like, I just want to participate in this economy less and less because it is just so
00:49:26.600exploitative. Right. And just coming back on track onto all the information that you are bringing
00:49:35.220us, this is that conversation once again, when I come back in the confused era of like DEI and why
00:49:41.280it's so offensive to people and why they think it's so harmful, when in actuality, it's not.
00:49:46.120Well, you know who definitely doesn't find it harmful? And that's Costco. So the same climate that had companies like Target abandoning their DEI initiatives and their inclusion work so quickly, Costco exists in that same environment. And guess what? They didn't cave on anything.
00:50:03.760So to be super clear, I know I've said this before, but DEI inclusion is not just like the right thing to do. It is profitable. It makes companies money. You know, just like that target executive saying that supporting inclusion in 2020 made the company money. Being able to cast a wide net when you're doing things like hiring and being able to attract all different kinds of people who want to spend money with your brand is good business.
00:50:26.740So Costco got approached by the Trump administration and was trying to be they were trying to pressure Costco into dropping their DEI programs.
00:50:36.460And Costco basically was like, no, our programs are fine.
00:50:40.34019 Attorneys General, led by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, which, by the way, he's a real piece of work.
00:50:47.820Google him if you've got to spare a minute because he's a real piece of work.
00:50:50.460And Iowa Attorney General Brenna Bernair are currently trying to pressure Costco into abandoning their DEI initiatives.
00:50:57.780They sent Costco a letter saying, with 300,000 employees, Costco likely has at least 200,000 employees who are potentially victims of illegal discrimination because they are white, Asian, male, or straight.
00:51:08.540Even if only a fraction of those employees were to file suit, and only some of these
00:51:12.480prove successful, the cost to Costco could be tens of billions of dollars.
00:51:16.360So that's like pretty clearly a threat to essentially extort Costco.
00:51:22.440Costco's board's response was, our board has considered this proposal and believes
00:51:27.020that our commitment to an enterprise rooted in respect and inclusion is appropriate and
00:52:37.080But finally, like understanding everything from every aspect, it felt like, OK, maybe
00:52:43.280I need to buy a freezer from them so I can store the large amounts of food they sell.
00:52:49.460I mean, I find their $1.50 hot dogs delightful.
00:52:52.740And my late father, rest his soul, he loved to brag about how you could return anything
00:52:58.000to Costco for cash no matter what. He was like a real abuser of that policy. You know what? Gotta
00:53:05.200do what you gotta do. And you know, I'm not saying this because I think that like Costco is some like
00:53:10.980idealist crusader ally. I'm sure they're terrible in a million other ways, but I think that they are
00:53:16.720a company that likes making money and they have done the math and they have probably realized
00:53:22.080that their DEI and inclusion policies help them make money.
00:53:26.720And it seems like, honestly, I have to say,
00:53:28.300it does seem like Target is experiencing some financial consequences here.
00:53:32.740To be clear, retail shopping is down generally,
00:53:36.140in part, I think, because of things like inflation and rising prices
00:53:39.000and economic uncertainty and changing consumer habits.
00:53:42.120But Target and Walmart both saw their retail numbers fall
00:53:46.620in the wake of pulling their DEI initiatives, while Costco did not.
00:53:50.300Again, I don't specifically know if this is because of the boycott or because of DEI, but this is according to Retail Brew. Foot traffic is down at Target stores, according to data from Placer AI prepared exclusively for Retail Brew. In the week that began January 27th, foot traffic fell 4%, then fell 8.6% the week beginning February 3rd and 3.9% the week beginning February 10th.
00:54:13.880This was the first drop in traffic this year for Target, with foot traffic for the first four weeks of 2025 up between 5% and 11.8%.
00:54:24.220Meanwhile, Costco has seen traffic rise for the same three-week period, up by 5.8% on the week beginning January 27th, 5.7% on the week beginning February 3rd, and 4.6% on the week beginning February 10th.
00:54:38.200So is this the result of people boycotting Target, not going to Target, not wanting to shop at places that have these kinds of policies? I don't know. But what I do know is that women have money. In fact, most financial decisions being made in households are being made by women.
00:55:04.240And I think all of us really have to understand that and, like, understand what that means, that it matters where we put our money.
00:55:11.080It matters who we choose to financially support.
00:55:13.420And, like, and I agree with that person's comment on Reddit that, like, the fact that they keep trying to convince us that it's not powerful, it doesn't matter, should be a signal to all of us that it actually does.
00:55:50.860It'll be interesting to see what happens.
00:55:52.860And I know, I know for a lot of us, us and our listeners, it is something that we're all wrestling with these ways we can make these changes in the system.
00:56:05.920And there's so many different factors to it.
00:56:07.920But yeah, definitely where you put your money and who you choose to support with your money.
00:56:19.720Like, and again, just, I think I've said this, but I want to say it clearly, like, easy for me to say I am a, I'm not a parent. I live in an easily walkable community. You know, I am able-bodied, like, easy for me to say. But like, if you're someone for whom that is the case, you can, you can, you know, be choosy about how and where you spend your money. Not everybody has that luxury. And if you are somebody who's listening who does, that's great. Like, we should be the people who are making those kinds of decisions.
00:56:45.460yes absolutely well thank you so much bridget we are so happy to to have you back on it was
00:56:55.140so good to talk with you where can the good listeners find you ah this has been a pleasure
00:57:01.120i miss shooting the s with you all and if you want to shoot the s with me you can listen to
00:57:08.380my podcast there are no girls on the internet or follow me on instagram at bridgetmarie in dc
00:57:12.180yes yes uh and go do that listeners um and if you would like to contact us you can you can email us
00:57:19.400at hello at stuff whenever told you.com you can find us on blue sky at mom stuff podcast or on
00:57:23.640instagram and tiktok at stuff whenever told you we're also on youtube we have a t public store
00:57:27.660and we have a book you can get wherever you get your books thanks as always to our super producer
00:57:30.800christina executive producer maya and our contributor joey thank you thanks to you for
00:57:34.540listening stuff whenever told you's production by heart radio for more podcasts by heart radio
00:57:37.640you can check out the heart radio app apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite
00:57:40.440if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality
00:57:54.160welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for anyone
00:58:00.380who thinks pride and prejudice and love island to serve the same level of discourse each week
00:58:04.900we're connecting the dots between books the internet and pop culture with your favorite
00:58:08.920writers book talk creators and plenty of overthought opinions listen to pro society
00:58:15.640on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts i survived nine months in
00:58:22.940captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed
00:58:28.300them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files every week i'm with survivors