There Are No Girls on the Internet - The Goodreads Scandal That Predicted Publishing's AI Crisis

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.580 Guaranteed human.

00:00:05.180 Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches,

00:00:08.020 there's a lot of suspense.

00:00:09.440 Will they finally eat the veggies?

00:00:10.940 Will the pesto survive the first bite?

00:00:12.980 Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all?

00:00:17.020 And will you finish Episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers?

00:00:20.920 Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus

00:00:24.120 from $94 a month.

00:00:25.540 Price guaranteed for two years on Internet

00:00:27.440 with a two-year term and auto-pay credit.

00:00:29.380 Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability.

00:00:32.420 Bell, connection is everything.

00:00:34.700 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

00:00:36.960 Think again.

00:00:37.600 More Americans listen to podcasts, then add supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

00:00:41.760 And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

00:00:45.880 Learn how podcasting can help your business.

00:00:47.720 Call 844-844-iHeart.

00:00:49.980 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:00:55.400 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:01:04.060 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:01:12.300 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:01:14.080 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:19.460 I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:01:26.780 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:01:32.380 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,

00:01:38.200 and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:01:43.380 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:51.880 I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

00:01:56.280 You know, I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy.

00:02:01.640 Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out.

00:02:08.280 You're not hired just to fill time and space.

00:02:11.300 You're hired to fill the space with you.

00:02:14.660 Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:02:25.920 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:02:34.040 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:02:36.760 did an author use ai to write her novel that's what the internet says but the actual story is

00:02:46.380 a lot more complicated next week i'm doing a deep dive on the story of shy girl a horror novel by

00:02:53.160 mia ballard that set the internet on fire readers accused ballard a black woman author of using ai

00:03:00.140 to write her novel. She denies it, but her publisher dropped the book anyway. It's a story

00:03:06.740 about how fragile publishing feels right now and just how quickly a career can unravel. But AI or

00:03:12.920 not, the literary world has always had its fair share of chaos. So while you wait, we're revisiting

00:03:18.940 one of our wildest deep dives about how an author lost her book deal after a Goodreads review bombing

00:03:25.180 scandal. There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:03:38.660 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:03:44.240 Okay, so Mike, I desperately need to talk about what's going on with the Goodreads review bombing

00:03:51.280 story. Honestly, this is like probably one of the more wild stories I've heard in a very long time.

00:03:59.260 And if I'm saying that, somebody who covers weird, wild stories on the internet, if I'm saying this,

00:04:06.220 you know it's truly wild. We were going to do this in this week's news roundup, but honestly,

00:04:11.760 I had so much to say about it that I decided it needed to be its own thing. That's because it

00:04:17.800 really involves a lot of stuff that I spend a ton of time thinking and talking about. First of all,

00:04:24.160 book communities online. I don't know how tapped in you are to like online book communities like

00:04:31.400 BookTok or Bookstagram, but the drama is always very deep when it's online book drama. Like

00:04:39.460 people who are voracious readers and connect about it on the internet, their drama is very deep.

00:04:47.080 I consider myself part of that community, by the way. So this is I can say that because I'm one of them.

00:04:52.220 OK, this is good context to have. You often tell me about very intense Internet drama and it often involves book clubs.

00:05:01.360 I didn't so I didn't realize this was like a particularly common thing of book communities, but it makes sense.

00:05:07.460 Oh, yes. So that's part of why I'm so interested in this. But there's also issues of how platforms impact marginalized people. Like, a lot of issues mixed up with what it means to be a creative professional in this day and age and how the internet experience has sort of complicated that. And also, good old-fashioned jealousy, something I know quite a bit about. So there's a lot going on here. So let's get into it.

00:05:34.560 So this story really all starts with an author named Kate Corian.

00:05:39.440 She's an author who had a highly anticipated book coming out called The Crown of Starlight, which was meant to be out in May of 2024.

00:05:48.680 I also read that she might have had like this book deal and then like a subscription box deal from this book.

00:05:56.540 And then like maybe even like a film publishing deal on the table.

00:06:00.960 So Kate is a writer who had a lot of positive things going on. 0.97

00:06:07.200 Like she was really doing the damn thing, very successful.

00:06:11.380 But now Kate's book has been shelved after she admitted using Goodreads to review bomb a bunch of forthcoming books, mostly by Black, Asian, and queer authors. 0.97

00:06:23.540 Kate is white.

00:06:24.200 It sounds like this had been going on for kind of a while and that it was something that the writing community was aware of and like knew was happening, but was up until this point kind of hoping to deal with privately.

00:06:35.760 They knew that she in particular was doing it or just that it was like a general problem in their community?

00:06:41.580 OK, so great question. I would say both.

00:06:44.020 I think that writers knew that this specific writer, Kate, was doing this.

00:06:49.660 And I think that writers were generally aware that Goodreads and Goodreads bombing, like submitting tons and tons of bad reviews for a book, even if you haven't read it, is an ongoing problem in the space.

00:07:02.000 So I think I would say both, if I had to say.

00:07:03.920 So the first time that this came on my radar was when Canadian author Zeran Jezuao first tweeted about it.

00:07:12.060 And that's when it really got more wide attention online.

00:07:15.160 So they first noticed that Kate's book, Crown of Starlight, was getting good reviews from the same accounts that were also trashing other books.

00:07:23.600 Some of those books were not even out yet.

00:07:26.920 So Zirin tweeted,

00:07:28.500 If you as a debut author are going to make a bunch of fake Goodreads accounts,

00:07:32.060 one-star bombing fellow debuts that you're threatened by,

00:07:35.120 can you at least not make it so obvious by upvoting your own book

00:07:38.600 on a bajillion different lists with those same accounts?

00:07:42.140 So they then posted a 31-page Google document,

00:07:45.780 which we'll link to in the show notes, of receipts,

00:07:48.900 screenshots showing the Goodreads activity of a number of accounts

00:07:52.300 with usernames including names like Chantal B. and O.C. Young that they suspected were actually

00:07:59.280 Kate, leaving good reviews for her own book and bad reviews for other people's debut books.

00:08:06.140 So the books that she left bad reviews for were mostly written by people of color,

00:08:12.400 including So Let Them Burn by Camila Cole, which was meant to be released in January of next year,

00:08:16.840 and To Gaze Upon Wicked Gods by Molly X. Chang, whose book is actually being put out by the same

00:08:23.360 publisher, Del Rey, as Kate's book. So this is essentially like trashing a fellow writer

00:08:31.520 whose book is being published by the same company. Pretty bad.

00:08:36.660 But it's also like not surprising at all, right? That like this sort of petty jealousy would be

00:08:41.820 happening within a single publishing house. I bet these women know each other and have been in the 1.00

00:08:49.220 same circles for a while. Notably, the authors of these books say that in some cases, their books 0.79

00:08:54.960 weren't even available yet. They hadn't been published. And in some cases, they had not even

00:08:59.140 sent out advanced copies or galleys. So how could someone be reviewing it if there's no way to

00:09:05.520 actually read the book? It's not out yet. They have not sent out any kind of advanced copies.

00:09:10.320 how are you, how is someone leaving bad reviews already on Goodreads? Something else to note here

00:09:15.980 is that these reviews are not just negative. In some cases, they're like downright mean.

00:09:22.000 In one review, Kate writes, I can't believe Del Rey spent half a million dollars on this

00:09:28.540 when they could have spent half a million dollars on anything else. Sorry, not sorry.

00:09:34.200 Like that's not even, that's just like a mean review. You don't deserve the money that you

00:09:39.200 were paid to write this book, and literally anything else would have been a better way

00:09:43.440 to spend that money, that is not a criticism of the book or the text. It is like just a mean

00:09:49.540 insult. Yeah. And it just drips with that same petty jealousy. Like they could have spent it on

00:09:56.560 anything else. Like one of my books. Yes. That money should have been my money.

00:10:01.920 Hold that thought because yes, a million times yes. And that's going to come up very soon.

00:10:07.420 So we also need to talk about the fact that there is a very real identity aspect to this,

00:10:12.980 like a very real racial aspect to this.

00:10:15.260 I want to come back to that in just a moment, but some of the names that Kate chose are

00:10:20.460 clearly meant to sound like they could belong to people of color.

00:10:23.400 Names like O.C. Young were some of the fake names that Kate used to leave mean reviews

00:10:29.980 on other people's work.

00:10:31.020 and then like using a fake name that is clearly meant to sound like it is the fake name of a 0.87

00:10:37.080 person of color to trash authors of color while also praising her own work as a white woman is 0.99

00:10:44.580 like so diabolically like messed up that's just so that's like there's layers to how fucked up 1.00

00:10:52.440 that is so using the fake name O.C. Young Kate left this review on her own book I love this book 0.89

00:11:00.280 so much that I regret reading it because now nothing on my to be read sounds as interesting

00:11:05.560 by comparison. So like, clearly that's not just hyping up her own book. It is a way to trash

00:11:11.900 other authors of color in the process. Zal, that Canadian author who was the first person that I 0.68

00:11:19.380 saw tweeting about this, really summed it up. They say, there's something extra despicable

00:11:24.320 about using clearly people of color names in fake accounts to upvote every negative review

00:11:30.140 on people of color books.

00:11:31.700 So the top ones are all one and two star.

00:11:34.600 Like what in the yellow face?

00:11:36.940 What's also funny about that

00:11:38.180 is that if anybody has read the novel Yellow Face,

00:11:40.900 which was probably one of my favorite novels of this year,

00:11:44.260 it's like a plot point from that novel,

00:11:46.660 a white writer being kind of like

00:11:49.960 pretending to be a person of color

00:11:52.280 because they are so jealous of writers of color.

00:11:55.300 It's so interesting how this whole situation

00:11:57.460 mirrors the plot line of a very popular novel that everybody should read. It was the best

00:12:02.180 novel I read this year. So this is already like a really awful, messed up thing to have done.

00:12:09.580 But when Kate was called out on it, rather than just fessing up and coming clean and being like,

00:12:15.920 yep, I did this. Jealousy got the better of me. She made things so much worse by inventing a fake

00:12:23.840 friend to take the fall. So a bunch of these debut authors, including authors whose books

00:12:30.200 were targeted by Kate, were all in a Slack channel for debut writers. And of course,

00:12:35.500 they were discussing what happened and starting to suspect Kate. Meredith Mooring, who it sounds

00:12:41.740 like was friends with Kate, told them all like, oh, listen, Kate did not do this. She could not

00:12:47.380 have done this. And Kate has proof that she didn't do this. It was a friend of hers who did this.

00:12:53.160 Meredith told the writers in this debut writer Slack channel, hold tight, Kate will pop in

00:12:59.540 to explain. 0.99

00:13:00.780 And eventually, Kate does pop into this Slack channel and explains.

00:13:04.840 She writes, I did not, capital letters, review bomb anyone.

00:13:10.940 I did not positively review my own book with false accounts.

00:13:15.180 So basically, this is Kate's explanation.

00:13:17.820 She says that somebody named Lily in the Reylo fandom community, which is a particularly like dedicated online fan community that centers on the romantic relationship between two Star Wars characters, Rey and Kylo Ren.

00:13:34.120 and she said that this person Lily she had met this person through this like particularly

00:13:40.460 dedicated online fan base and that in this fan base you you like would she would like pick up

00:13:47.720 people like this who were just like very very dedicated and that that was the person who was

00:13:53.820 behind these reviews this person Lily was just like a friend of hers believed so much in her

00:14:00.320 writing wanted to make her writing a success and that's why she was she was the one who was behind

00:14:04.660 these reviews kate wrote in the slack channel this person is someone i knew from a time in star wars

00:14:11.420 fandom where i was a well-known fan fiction author and a lightning rod for unhinged behavior the type

00:14:18.080 of behavior that anyone else who was well known in the fandom at the time still sees online i have no

00:14:23.660 further details. I haven't heard anything else from them. I never responded. So I got to give a,

00:14:30.520 you know how we usually do like warnings when we're going to talk about something that is like

00:14:34.700 really bad on the podcast. I have to give a cringe alert for this because, oh my God,

00:14:41.420 is it cringy. So the proof in quotes that Kate shares that she didn't do this and that Lily did

00:14:48.920 is these screenshots of faked back-and-forth conversations between Kate and Lily.

00:14:56.920 Mike, are you down to do a dramatic reading of these conversations with me?

00:15:02.240 Yeah.

00:15:03.240 Should I be Kate or should I be Lily?

00:15:06.160 You be Lily.

00:15:07.400 I'll be Kate.

00:15:08.700 Okay.

00:15:09.560 It seems like the reviews were positive,

00:15:11.580 but I didn't do anything?

00:15:14.880 Rating books high is against the rules?

00:15:18.060 No.

00:15:18.920 But making fake accounts to rate them high is it's artificially inflating a book's reviews.

00:15:24.220 That's against the rules.

00:15:27.320 Grimacing emoji.

00:15:29.000 Oh, I didn't realize you could get in trouble.

00:15:33.060 What?

00:15:33.900 Please don't get mad.

00:15:36.080 Um.

00:15:37.700 I made a couple accounts.

00:15:40.600 I think that was me.

00:15:43.160 What?

00:15:44.600 Why?

00:15:45.100 The other night you were worrying that your book would get overshown by bigger books at your publisher.

00:15:51.320 I wanted to help.

00:15:52.680 So I made a couple accounts to rate your book high.

00:15:55.300 I'm sorry, I really didn't think it would be a problem. 0.99

00:15:58.040 What the fuck? 0.99

00:15:59.780 Why? 1.00

00:16:00.680 I don't need fake reviews to help me, Jesus Christ!

00:16:05.120 I'm sorry, I really didn't think it would hurt!

00:16:08.540 I was trying to be nice.

00:16:10.140 Oh my god, I don't even know what to say.

00:16:12.940 I don't need you to step in and try to be nice with this.

00:16:17.220 Do you have any idea how patronizing that is?

00:16:19.660 How humiliating spelled incorrectly?

00:16:22.200 How much damage you could have done?

00:16:24.420 I'm going to be sick, literally going to vomit. 1.00

00:16:27.560 Please tell me that for the love of God, you weren't actually stupid enough 1.00

00:16:31.660 to use the same accounts that you made to boost me to bomb other people. 0.99

00:16:37.720 Well?

00:16:38.660 I didn't think anyone would notice.

00:16:40.880 I'm literally going to be sick.

00:16:43.620 I need to email my agent. 0.99

00:16:45.440 This could literally cost me my fucking career. 0.99

00:16:49.560 I don't even know what to say. 0.99

00:16:51.500 This is such a violation of my trust and of our friendship.

00:16:56.280 I'm so, so sorry, Kate.

00:16:57.940 I'm really sorry.

00:16:59.080 I didn't think it would hurt.

00:17:01.180 She just types a bunch of letters, like random letters.

00:17:04.740 How could it not hurt? 1.00

00:17:06.760 Who the fuck did you go after? 0.99

00:17:09.540 It was just the books you said you were worried would bury yours on social media, 1.00

00:17:13.540 Wicked Gods and Fate Inked and Blood.

00:17:16.160 You went after people in my imprint? In my debut group?

00:17:21.320 Do you have any idea how much this could have cost me?

00:17:25.240 I could lose my deal. I could lose everything, all caps.

00:17:29.340 If this is what Zirin was talking about, I'm going to kill you. 0.99

00:17:33.420 All day, I've been sitting here worried that someone was review bombing me, 0.96

00:17:37.300 only to find out that I wasn't the victim of a review bombing campaign,

00:17:41.540 but instead, someone I trusted and considered a friend

00:17:44.660 really thought I was so insecure and helpless 1.00

00:17:47.260 that I needed you to fuck step in and level the playing field? 0.99

00:17:52.040 I'm so sorry. 0.99

00:17:53.520 I didn't think people would think it was you.

00:17:55.660 I tried to make the accounts look real.

00:17:57.980 I don't even know what to say.

00:18:00.540 That somehow makes it even worse. 1.00

00:18:02.440 Seriously, what the fuck, dude? 0.99

00:18:04.420 I trusted you. 1.00

00:18:05.460 I told you about stuff I was insecure about and you literally turned right back around and pulled this shit. 0.99

00:18:11.680 You understand that we're done here, right? 0.99

00:18:15.780 And scene.

00:18:18.500 Oh my God.

00:18:19.660 So first of all, I have to say, it just sounds so fake.

00:18:24.520 Like when you read it out loud, knowing this is a conversation between one person,

00:18:29.600 like someone's faking a, like someone is playing both parts of this.

00:18:34.600 it just sounds so fake there's like a long part of just straight exposition in there i've been

00:18:41.000 sitting here worried that someone was review bombing me only to find out that i wasn't the

00:18:44.480 victim of a review bombing campaign but instead someone i trusted and considered a friend really

00:18:48.460 thought i was so insecure like nobody taught nobody explains like conveniently explains

00:18:53.620 what is happening in their life in such clear and explicit terms it's like when you watch a movie

00:18:59.220 and the main character is like oh well like convenient explanation of what's going on in

00:19:06.900 the plot yeah or like right when they've got james bond captured and the the villain is explaining

00:19:15.560 his master plan so i cannot believe that this is what she published on the slack channel to

00:19:23.920 prove in heavy quotes that she was not the person behind this review bombing. And I really got to

00:19:30.380 give it to the authors of color, some of whom weren't even targeted, who just like cared about

00:19:34.820 this enough to stay on it, who really stayed on Kate even after she dropped this very compelling

00:19:41.420 proof to get to the truth. So people were asking like, can you show us earlier conversations

00:19:48.820 between you and Lily so that we can actually verify this person exists like very convenient

00:19:55.380 that the only conversations that you're able to show are conversations where you're talking about

00:20:00.700 this specific incident and not any other conversations from somebody that you said

00:20:05.680 that you've had an online friendship with that was so deep that they that it led them to do this

00:20:10.560 pretty weird right yeah pretty weird pretty weak evidence very weak evidence like I

00:20:18.780 honestly can't believe that she posted this she's a novelist right like yeah like she's supposed to

00:20:27.440 make up stories that presumably sound plausible yeah it really kind of makes you think like

00:20:38.000 oh like oh maybe this is why she felt like she had to do this this review bombing scheme because

00:20:43.700 she didn't think she was going to be successful on her own maybe if this is the caliber of writing

00:20:49.760 that she puts out it's pretty weak writing let's take a quick break

00:20:57.280 my suv's worth more than ever time to upgrade there's never been a better time at plaza auto

00:21:09.300 Group locations get top value for your trade and shop hundreds of new and pre-owned vehicles

00:21:14.240 across 11 locations. And if you can't come to us, we'll come to you. With best-in-class pricing,

00:21:20.400 unbeatable trade values, and 70 years of trust, it's easy to see why families choose the Plaza

00:21:25.900 Auto Group. Plaza Auto Group, celebrating 70 years family-owned and operated. Visit

00:21:31.120 plazaautogroup.com. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting? Think again. More

00:21:37.040 americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from spotify and pandora and as

00:21:41.820 the number one podcaster iheart's twice as large as the next two combined so whatever your customers

00:21:46.760 listen to they'll hear your message plus only iheart can extend your message to audiences

00:21:51.500 across broadcast radio think podcasting can help your business think iheart streaming radio and

00:21:57.500 podcasting let us show you at iheartadvertising.com that's iheartadvertising.com if your bookshelf and

00:22:04.520 your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society,

00:22:11.600 the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture

00:22:16.260 obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level

00:22:20.540 of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet,

00:22:26.100 and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm

00:22:30.980 obsessed. So obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest

00:22:35.860 pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages

00:22:41.740 inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary

00:22:47.460 deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little

00:22:52.840 too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

00:22:59.580 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:23:01.480 See you between the pages.

00:23:03.540 When I was 14 years old,

00:23:05.840 I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:23:09.340 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring

00:23:12.040 how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:23:15.680 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:23:19.340 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:23:24.940 shut up, don't say anything.

00:23:27.620 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.98

00:23:32.120 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:23:36.680 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:23:44.120 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:23:47.940 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:23:51.600 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:23:54.660 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:24:04.340 I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

00:24:08.800 If you know me, you know I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy.

00:24:15.320 So this podcast lets us uncover those things together through meaningful conversations with fascinating people.

00:24:23.280 Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to

00:24:29.820 stand out. You're not hired just to fill time and space. You're hired to fill the space with you.

00:24:36.840 You have something in your guts. You go with it. And Shawn Johnson recalled the moment she realized

00:24:42.420 her now husband, Andrew, was the one. He was just so unapologetically himself and knew nothing of

00:24:49.540 Hollywood. He hadn't been on a plane before without his family. It was so pure. Listen to

00:24:55.840 Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:25:10.100 And we're back. So after she released this proof and writers were like, no, can you give us more

00:25:16.180 proof, she eventually did admit the truth that there was no Lily and that she was the one who

00:25:23.560 had done the review bombing. Here is her apology slash explanation that she posted. Apology maybe

00:25:29.980 is too strong. You tell me, you be the judge. She wrote, since June 2022, I've been fighting

00:25:36.580 a losing battle against depression, alcoholism, and substance abuse, the full scope of which I've

00:25:41.900 hidden from everyone in my life, out of shame and a misguided belief that with the right medicine

00:25:46.920 and therapy, I could beat it. In late November 2023, I started a new medication, and on December

00:25:53.100 2nd, 2023, I suffered a complete psychological breakdown. During this time, I created roughly

00:26:00.060 six profiles on Goodreads, and along with two profiles I made during a similar but shorter

00:26:05.140 breakdown in 2022, I boosted the rating of my book, bombed the ratings of several fellow W

00:26:10.820 authors and left reviews that range from kind of mean to downright abusive. Two of those authors,

00:26:17.060 Molly X. Chang and Danielle Jensen, are fellow Del Rey authors. Camilla Cole and Bethany Baptiste

00:26:23.300 just happened to be on the wrong Goodreads list at the wrong time. I felt no ill will toward any

00:26:28.360 of them. It was just my fear about how my book would be received, running out of control. My

00:26:34.000 memories of this are extremely fuzzy, so it's possible there are a couple other authors. If so,

00:26:38.740 I take full ownership of what I did as well.

00:26:41.980 I'm sorrier than you'll ever know.

00:26:43.500 There's nothing I can say to erase what I did to you.

00:26:45.880 When I was slapped on the wrist by Goodreads

00:26:47.960 and vague tweeted by a handful of people,

00:26:49.900 I panicked that my secret was about to get out.

00:26:52.760 Rather than taking responsibility for my actions,

00:26:55.120 I tried to cover my tracks.

00:26:56.960 Still in the middle of my breakdown,

00:26:58.700 I made up the world's sloppiest chat

00:27:00.860 with a non-existent friend who was supposedly to blame,

00:27:04.060 sent fake apologies for the action of said friend,

00:27:06.860 which only made things worse.

00:27:08.300 I betrayed the confidence of my agent, my pub team, my readers, my friends, and betrayed my

00:27:12.960 own deeply held values. I dragged one of my dearest friends and fellow debut authors into

00:27:17.580 the mud with me when she came to my defense. I'll leave her name out of this so as not to

00:27:22.220 pull her in even deeper. However, if she wishes to come forward, I'll apologize to her publicly

00:27:26.500 as well. Let me be extremely clear. While I might not have been sober or of sound mind during this

00:27:32.440 time, I accept responsibility for the pain and suffering I caused, and my delay in posting this

00:27:37.480 is due to the spending the last few days offline

00:27:39.540 while going through withdrawals.

00:27:41.080 I sobered up enough to be brutally honest

00:27:43.020 with you and myself.

00:27:44.380 I know some of you won't forgive me.

00:27:45.840 I recognize that you're not required to.

00:27:47.880 No one ever wants to be judged by their worst actions,

00:27:50.260 so it's not always up to us.

00:27:52.340 I'll be reaching out to everyone directly impacted,

00:27:54.440 though that may take time,

00:27:55.800 since I'm checking into an intensive psychiatric care

00:27:58.700 and rehab facility,

00:27:59.760 which means I'll be mostly off social media,

00:28:01.820 as I need to give 100% to the program

00:28:03.480 if I want it to stick.

00:28:04.980 All I can do going forward is try to live my life

00:28:07.140 in a way that shows you that these are not empty words wow what a redemption arc for her she was

00:28:13.480 struggling with addiction a secret addiction that no one knew about but now she's over it

00:28:18.940 so yeah i mean i will say this i don't want to get too deep into this because like

00:28:25.000 she may very well be suffering from genuine mental health and substance abuse issues however 0.95

00:28:30.720 However, I really do take issue with how she uses her mental and substance abuse issues as a defense. Like, it is the very first sentence of this explanation even. And I just don't know that I would agree that mental health issues or substance issues would cause you to do something that is like so clearly racially motivated.

00:28:55.880 you know um i don't i don't think that is a defense and i take issue with how she is framing

00:29:04.480 it of like oh i was suffering from some kind of a mental breakdown i know plenty of people who

00:29:09.840 suffer with addiction issues and suffer with mental health issues and i don't know that this

00:29:13.940 is something that i would say is a typical result of dealing with mental or substance abuse issues 0.59

00:29:22.180 i'll put it that way yeah that's a really good way to put it uh like really mean racial behavior

00:29:31.680 not a typical result of dealing with mental health issues so after all of this kate's agent dropped

00:29:39.080 her her publisher dropped her it does seem like that at first her publisher del rey was like oh

00:29:45.340 we're gonna hold her book launch we're not gonna launch it until later like maybe we'll launch it

00:29:50.660 when the heat dies down but then they said recently that they are just gonna drop her permanently

00:29:54.580 her friend who stuck up for her in that slack channel for debut authors meredith mooring

00:30:00.160 has publicly said that she felt lied to and that she is you know saying like i'm not gonna talk

00:30:06.380 to kate ever again that she lied to me i don't trust her honestly here is the thing it sounds

00:30:12.980 like Kate really truly had an amazing thing going a well-regarded book deal a subscription

00:30:22.480 a subscription box deal maybe movie rights and she threw it all away because of her decision

00:30:30.140 to do this like this is on her like she lost it because of her own choices yeah and we can take 0.82

00:30:40.320 her at her word that she did this out of you know fear of her own success but or you know lack of

00:30:49.800 success jealousy I guess but even if that's true and that's what motivated her like doesn't remotely

00:30:56.480 make it okay and like you said that like that fear drove her to do this thing that threw it all away

00:31:07.140 So I absolutely want to get into that because I do think this is a story about what happens when you don't check some of your more destructive impulses and jealousy, like dealing with jealousy is certainly something I know a little bit about.

00:31:22.120 But like, yes, I agree. So there is so much going on here. First, I think there is a really clear platform piece happening here. It is not surprising to me that this is all happening on Goodreads.

00:31:37.140 Goodreads, which is owned by Amazon, does say that they have rules against review bombing.

00:31:42.440 Their rules say, artificially inflating or deflating a book's ratings or reputation violates our rules.

00:31:49.020 This includes activity like creating fake accounts to manipulate book ratings, purchasing reviews, and incentivizing votes, likes, or other actions on Goodreads.

00:31:57.860 They have that as their policy.

00:31:59.440 However, this is far from the first time that review bombing campaigns have happened on Goodreads.

00:32:05.080 And also, this is not even the first time that they have been racially motivated.

00:32:09.480 Back in the summer, the New York Times published a piece called How Review Bombing Can Tank

00:32:14.000 a Book Before It's Published.

00:32:15.680 In it, they described how the same things that make Goodreads work and a platform that

00:32:20.280 people want to show up to talk about books, you know, excitement and passion around books

00:32:25.520 also makes it an effective tool to sabotage writers.

00:32:29.640 And like most online attacks, it is more marginalized people who bear the brunt of it.

00:32:35.080 The New York Times talked to Cecilia Rabbis, a Black woman and a former data scientist

00:32:39.820 at Google who left tech to write her debut novel called Everything's Fine, which is

00:32:45.040 about a young Black woman working at Goldman Sachs who falls in love with a conservative

00:32:49.220 white coworker with bigoted views.

00:32:52.320 Her book was the target of coordinated review bombing campaigns.

00:32:56.920 Cecilia says, it may look like a bunch of one-star reviews on Goodreads, but these are

00:33:01.420 broader campaigns of harassment.

00:33:03.740 People were very keen to not just attack the work, but to attack me as well.

00:33:08.240 Some of the reviews actually say, like, I didn't read this book.

00:33:11.980 I've never read this book, but I feel inclined to leave this review anyway.

00:33:16.860 And Cecilia says that it's not just, like, somebody leaving a mean review, that this can actually impact how the book is received.

00:33:24.660 She says, I was concerned about the risk of contagion and that readers and reviewers would dismiss the work without really engaging it.

00:33:31.500 I felt particularly vulnerable as a debut author, but also as a Black woman author.

00:33:37.180 So you're probably not surprised to hear how much Amazon has taken over the book publishing space.

00:33:43.460 We actually did an episode about it a while back with Jane Friedman

00:33:46.220 after somebody on Amazon was selling AI dupes of her books using her name.

00:33:51.620 But since Amazon has purchased Goodreads, Amazon has basically dominated the book publishing space.

00:33:57.220 And Goodreads is an incredibly powerful tool for authors to get their work discovered.

00:34:02.560 So review bombing can actually have a meaningful impact on writers getting their books read,

00:34:08.120 and it can make or break whether or not an author is able to successfully launch their work.

00:34:13.160 So on Amazon, like the Amazon shopping apparatus, it actually tells you if the person who is leaving

00:34:21.580 a review on Amazon has actually purchased the book or not through Amazon. And Amazon's shopping

00:34:28.220 platform does not allow anybody to leave reviews on books that are not yet out. However, that is

00:34:34.800 not the case on Goodreads, which leaves it uniquely open to coordinated attacks on books that aren't

00:34:39.980 even out yet. I don't mean books that aren't out yet in the like, oh, there's a specific release

00:34:46.480 date further in the future sense. I mean, books that aren't out yet in the like, this is still an

00:34:53.180 idea in the author's head sense. You know, like George R.R. Martin's long-awaited The Winds of

00:34:59.020 the Winter, which is the next installment in his A Song of Fire and Ice series, does not even have

00:35:04.280 an official release date. Like, as far as we know, it has not been written. However, that has not

00:35:09.900 stopped it from amassing more than 10,800 ratings and 500 reviews on Goodreads. As far as we know,

00:35:17.840 this book is not even on paper. It is like still in George R.R. Martin's head.

00:35:22.960 That's pretty wild. I wonder what his rating is.

00:35:26.540 It's 4.40. He's got four and a half stars.

00:35:30.280 I could see someone doing this because they love George R.R. Martin. And so they'd want to like

00:35:34.980 give it a five to give him a boost or something. Or I could see people panning it because they

00:35:39.520 really hate george r r martin and giving him a one how does it get like foreign change who's coming

00:35:44.720 in here and being like yeah it'll probably be all right so it's a lot of people just using this

00:35:49.600 space i'm looking at it now they're just like using this space to be like when is this book

00:35:53.740 coming out somebody has been updating their review for years here's the top review i have this plan

00:36:00.620 that when this comes out in 2015 i'm going to drop my child by then age four off at grandma and

00:36:05.760 grandpa's house get myself a hotel room and do nothing but read this for four for three days

00:36:10.100 straight then an update alas as 2015 begins to fade i have come to the realization that my plan

00:36:16.520 will never come to fruition it was a good plan i'll miss the plan maybe 2016 update of the update

00:36:22.160 2016 is half over at this point i'm pretty sure when i purchase this book it's going to be a page

00:36:27.280 that says just watch the show followed by 600 blank pages new update it's 2017 i give up another

00:36:33.960 update. It's 2020, and I return to this hopeful snapshot of my optimistic youth from time to time

00:36:39.060 to wonder what it must have been like to be so innocent. Alas. Last update. Oh, my sweet summer

00:36:45.880 child. Do you remember what it was like to have such hope, such confidence, 2015? It was going to

00:36:51.940 be your year. But as summer of 2022 fades and leaves begin to fall, it is clear that no one

00:36:58.580 will be reading this book, even now,

00:37:00.340 some seven years later, in 2022.

00:37:03.320 What could have been?

00:37:07.100 Wow, George R.R. Martin, like,

00:37:10.320 ruining this guy's life, taking away his childhood.

00:37:13.960 He's been leaving these reviews for years.

00:37:20.880 More after a quick break.

00:37:22.120 my suv's worth more than ever time to upgrade there's never been a better time at plaza auto

00:37:34.120 group locations get top value for your trade and shop hundreds of new and pre-owned vehicles

00:37:39.060 across 11 locations and if you can't come to us we'll come to you with best in class pricing

00:37:44.960 unbeatable trade values and 70 years of trust it's easy to see why families choose the plaza

00:37:50.760 Auto Group. Plaza Auto Group. Celebrating 70 years family-owned and operated. Visit

00:37:55.960 plazaautogroup.com. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting? Think again. More

00:38:01.840 Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as

00:38:06.500 the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your

00:38:11.040 customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to

00:38:15.600 audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart. Streaming,

00:38:21.180 radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-IHEART to get started. That's 844-844-IHEART.

00:38:28.360 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived,

00:38:35.020 and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:38:40.680 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:38:44.300 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:38:49.720 shut up, don't say anything.

00:38:52.400 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.98

00:38:56.900 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:39:01.360 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed,

00:39:06.120 and I just started screaming.

00:39:08.440 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:39:12.900 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:39:16.360 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:39:19.960 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:39:28.420 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:39:33.400 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:39:46.820 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:39:53.800 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:39:57.060 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

00:40:03.480 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.

00:40:11.380 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

00:40:20.540 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:40:26.040 See you between the pages.

00:40:29.200 I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

00:40:33.660 If you know me, you know I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy.

00:40:40.200 So this podcast lets us uncover those things together through meaningful conversations with fascinating people.

00:40:48.340 Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out.

00:40:55.220 You're not hired just to fill time and space.

00:40:58.620 You're hired to fill the space with you.

00:41:01.720 You have something in your guts.

00:41:03.460 You go with it.

00:41:04.860 And Shawn Johnson recalled the moment she realized her now husband, Andrew, was the one.

00:41:10.340 He was just so unapologetically himself and knew nothing of Hollywood.

00:41:15.020 He hadn't been on a plane before without his family.

00:41:18.520 It was so pure.

00:41:19.520 Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:41:34.940 Let's get right back into it.

00:41:36.520 so beyond this being like a tech and platform story i do think there is something to the fact

00:41:44.920 that kate was review bombing and targeting marginalized writers queer authors authors of

00:41:51.940 color and that these specific authors were the ones that she was concerned were going to outshine

00:41:57.300 her own debut i do think that there's this attitude that people of color are like the golden

00:42:03.320 children of publishing right now. Last year, James Patterson, who is this ridiculously successful

00:42:09.340 writer, said that older white men like him basically cannot get writing jobs right now,

00:42:15.620 saying, can you get a job? Yes. Is it harder? Yes. It's even harder for older writers. You don't meet

00:42:22.120 many 52-year-old white males, he insisted. Now, keep in mind, this is somebody that has sold more

00:42:27.100 than 450 million books during his storied 30-year career where his books have been turned into

00:42:33.640 blockbuster movies. Joyce Carol Oates, who I have to say is kind of my like forever problematic

00:42:42.920 fave. Joyce Carol Oates, she's like the Azalea Banks of the book industry. Like 0.99

00:42:52.080 nine times out of 10, she's super wrong. But when she is right, she is so right. That's how I would

00:43:01.380 describe her. I cannot quit Joyce Carol Oates. She is my forever problematic fave. Well, she said the

00:43:06.940 very same thing. She said, a friend who was a literary agent told me that he could not even

00:43:11.520 get editors to read first novels by young white male writers, no matter how good. They're just

00:43:17.120 not interested. This is heartbreaking for writers who may in fact be brilliant and critical of their

00:43:23.320 own privilege. So there is this attitude that the only people who find success in the book world

00:43:29.080 are people who are traditionally marginalized, but it's so laughably and frustratingly untrue.

00:43:36.280 And the data could not demonstrate how clearly untrue this is more clearly, that it is white

00:43:42.060 people who still and always have been the majority of the book publishing space. Penguin Random House

00:43:48.860 did an audit where they found that white contributors accounted for 76% of books released

00:43:53.840 between 2019 and 2021. 34% of those writers were male. A 2020 analysis by New York Times surveyed

00:44:01.580 more than 7,000 popular novels published by the largest publishing houses, Simon & Schuster,

00:44:06.480 Penguin Random House, Doubleday, HarperCollins, and Macmillan. Of the books surveyed, 95%

00:44:12.040 percent of them were written by white people. In 2018 alone, non-Hispanic white people wrote a

00:44:17.940 whopping 89% of the books sampled. So it's white people. White people are the ones who are 0.97

00:44:25.320 dominating the industry and always have. I do think there is this very persistent 1.00

00:44:30.360 attitude that, oh, you have to be a person of color or somehow marginalized to get a foothold

00:44:38.200 in the publishing space but that just betrays the reality that that that like the people who

00:44:43.860 are succeeding in the space are white people it's just it's just the truth yeah those stats you just

00:44:49.760 read were pretty overwhelming that in that uh analysis uh of authors 95 of the books what were

00:45:00.260 they uh it's a new york times study yeah 95 were written by white people that's like way over the

00:45:07.980 proportion of the population that is white. And I also think it mirrors this conversation

00:45:12.700 that's sort of bubbling up now around diversity and inclusion efforts. We'll have an episode

00:45:17.920 diving into some of this next week about that wild situation happening at Harvard.

00:45:23.120 But I do think that people will sit here with a straight face and say that they believe that

00:45:28.000 Black and brown folks are being handed like cushy gigs or cushy contracts in spaces that have mostly 1.00

00:45:36.260 been dominated by white people when the reality is that they don't give us shit if a black person 0.99

00:45:43.140 or a brown person has wound up in a space where there are not a lot of black and brown people 1.00

00:45:48.860 best believe that is because that person earned that shit they don't give us anything people are 0.99

00:45:55.240 out here thinking that like oh they're just handing out book deals and cushy reviews and 0.99

00:46:02.120 praise to Black people, I would like some of that, please. If they're handing that out,

00:46:07.500 I would love to be the first in line to get some, because that has not been my experience.

00:46:11.660 And even beyond the racial dynamics at play, I think that Kate's story really is like what you

00:46:17.820 were talking about before, Mike, that it is one of what happens when you are, as my father used to

00:46:23.200 say, when you're so busy looking at everybody else's plate that your own food gets cold,

00:46:28.160 Right. Like you are so focused on the comparison game and looking at what other people have and obsessing about it and like really internalizing what's going on with others that you can't even focus on what you have, which in Kate's situation was a lot.

00:46:46.400 Kate had a lot of success, and she ruined that because of her own inability to stop being jealous and stop obsessing and fantasizing about what other people might get.

00:46:59.320 Yeah, jealousy is so destructive.

00:47:02.580 It's true, and the reason why I know this, I'm speaking from experience, is that I have definitely had to struggle to deal with jealousy.

00:47:12.300 I wasn't handling it through review bombing my colleagues, thank God, but when you make something, particularly when you're in a creative field, but I'm sure anybody who is in any kind of field can relate to this, you really have to work to learn to not let things like jealousy and comparison get to you if you're going to make anything, right?

00:47:34.500 Like, especially right now, this time of year, where all of my very, very talented friends and colleagues are making, like, best of lists and getting awards and things like that, it can be hard.

00:47:48.580 Like, I don't want to negate the fact that Kate probably was dealing with very real feelings that are tough to grapple with.

00:47:56.240 I have had to do a ton of work to keep that kind of comparison and jealousy from making me

00:48:03.660 spin out or making me like second guess my own work. If you're, if this is something that sounds

00:48:09.500 familiar, I will give you, I will give folks a tip. Like the way that I have learned to sort of

00:48:14.780 reprogram jealousy in my own mind is by kind of flipping the dynamic a little bit. And so training

00:48:22.000 myself to see the wins of people in my circle the wins of people that I know as my own wins and so

00:48:29.540 like when a friend of mine gets on a best of list telling myself like wow how great for me that I am

00:48:38.160 connected to such a dynamic network of creators that I know somebody like this like what a win

00:48:45.200 for me you know this is wow this is somebody that maybe I can collaborate with like what a great

00:48:50.500 thing for me. Like really seeing the wins of other people as wins for yourself has really helped me

00:48:58.060 sort of reframe the game a little bit and like not be like salty when someone gets something

00:49:04.480 that I want. It can be helpful. So that's a little tip for folks. But I also think it's about

00:49:09.960 remembering that success is not finite. Something good happening to somebody else does not mean

00:49:19.280 that something is being taken away from you they're like it is such a white supremacist

00:49:26.520 and also like patriarchal lie that there can only be one there's only enough room for one person to

00:49:33.100 be successful capitalism and white supremacy and all those other other forces want us to think

00:49:39.480 that there is only enough room for one but that is a lie there truly is enough for all of us there

00:49:45.040 There is enough room for all of us to be at the table.

00:49:47.580 There is enough room for all of us to be successful, for all of us to have what we need.

00:49:51.920 You do not need the voice in your head that says that other people doing similar work

00:49:57.140 are your competitors and not your collaborators. 0.95

00:50:00.160 That voice is a liar.

00:50:01.660 There is truly enough room for all of us.

00:50:04.680 And honestly, we can all be successful.

00:50:07.540 We can all win.

00:50:08.320 And Kate, that's the thing is Kate really was successful, it sounds like. 0.53

00:50:12.720 But she spoiled it all.

00:50:14.400 And you know what? It wasn't authors of color who blocked her bag. It was her own behavior. Like, it was herself. In the end, that is the main, your main hater, yourself. 0.51

00:50:29.100 Yeah, boy, what a, what an arc to the story, huh?

00:50:32.960 It's true.

00:50:33.840 So we'll add a link in the show notes to the different authors who were impacted.

00:50:38.420 If you want to get their books, show them some love.

00:50:42.840 Yeah, a wild story at the end of the day.

00:50:46.180 Remember, don't let jealousy let you spin out and block your own bad.

00:50:51.700 You truly are enough.

00:50:53.340 Don't leave fake reviews.

00:50:55.080 Don't make up fake conversations with people who don't exist.

00:50:58.160 Just do your best.

00:50:59.320 That's all we can do.

00:51:00.580 Well, thanks, Bridget.

00:51:01.280 I really enjoyed that.

00:51:03.600 That was a wild story.

00:51:05.180 I told you it was wild.

00:51:06.220 Got a story about an interesting thing in tech

00:51:14.580 Or just want to say hi

00:51:15.560 You can reach us at hello at tangody.com

00:51:18.020 You can also find transcripts for today's episode

00:51:20.140 At tangody.com

00:51:21.140 There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd

00:51:24.020 It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative

00:51:26.600 Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer

00:51:28.800 Tari Harrison is our producer

00:51:30.360 And sound engineer

00:51:31.300 Michael Amato is our contributing producer

00:51:33.440 I'm your host, Bridget Todd

00:51:35.720 If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

00:51:39.300 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:51:44.260 i survived nine months in captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:52:04.160 what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files every

00:52:10.180 week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable abducted stalked controlled and

00:52:15.960 nearly silenced these are stories about what it takes to make it out alive listen to the survivor

00:52:22.380 files with elizabeth smart on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts

00:52:28.860 if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality

00:52:32.920 welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for anyone

00:52:39.140 who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island

00:52:41.100 deserve the same level of discourse.

00:52:43.220 Each week, we're connecting the dots

00:52:44.600 between books, the internet, and pop culture

00:52:46.700 with your favorite writers, book talk creators,

00:52:49.420 and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:52:51.480 Yeah, I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed.

00:52:53.240 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app,

00:52:55.960 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:52:59.500 I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast

00:53:01.780 Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

00:53:03.380 You know, I'm always searching for inspiration

00:53:06.380 and useful tools to maximize joy.

00:53:09.140 Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out.

00:53:16.120 You're not hired just to fill time and space.

00:53:18.920 You're hired to fill the space with you.

00:53:21.780 Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:53:30.220 Our hometown is not a test tube.

00:53:32.900 90 miles northeast of Nashville, a battle for the future of America plays out in one small town.

00:53:38.960 Developers with right-wing ties have purchased hundreds of acres of land.

00:53:42.620 We need cities on a shining hill.

00:53:44.820 This is Our Town, a podcast about what happens when a small town

00:53:48.880 becomes the site of a social experiment and fights back. 0.99

00:53:52.860 Guess you didn't move in on a bunch of dumb hillbillies now, did you? 0.98

00:53:55.580 Listen to Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0.99

00:53:59.640 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:54:04.300 I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 3 podcast.

00:54:08.780 This is a story about a horrendous situation that destroyed two families.

00:54:14.140 It's a scorched earth war that shows just how far someone will go to get what they want.

00:54:20.120 Cindy said, I had to choose between the truth and my family, and I had to choose the truth.

00:54:25.320 Listen to Season 3 of Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:54:34.200 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:54:37.080 Guaranteed human.

00:54:38.780 You

There Are No Girls on the Internet - April 04, 2026

The Goodreads Scandal That Predicted Publishing's AI Crisis

Episode Stats

Transcript