There Are No Girls on the Internet - The Woman Who Designed the Face of the Personal Computer

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.580 Guaranteed human.

00:00:05.180 Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches,

00:00:08.020 there's a lot of suspense.

00:00:09.440 Will they finally eat the veggies?

00:00:10.940 Will the pesto survive the first bite?

00:00:12.980 Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all?

00:00:17.020 And will you finish Episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers?

00:00:20.920 Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus

00:00:24.120 from $94 a month.

00:00:25.540 Price guaranteed for two years on Internet

00:00:27.440 with a two-year term and auto-pay credit.

00:00:29.380 Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability.

00:00:32.420 Bell, connection is everything.

00:00:34.700 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

00:00:36.960 Think again.

00:00:37.600 More Americans listen to podcasts, then add supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

00:00:41.760 And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

00:00:45.880 Learn how podcasting can help your business.

00:00:47.720 Call 844-844-iHeart.

00:00:49.980 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:00:55.400 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:01:04.060 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:01:12.300 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:01:14.080 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:19.460 I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:01:26.780 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:01:32.380 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,

00:01:38.200 and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:01:43.380 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:51.880 I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

00:01:56.280 You know, I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy.

00:02:01.640 Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out.

00:02:08.280 You're not hired just to fill time and space.

00:02:11.300 You're hired to fill the space with you.

00:02:14.660 Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:02:25.880 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:02:34.000 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:02:36.740 march is women's history month and this year honoring women's contributions feels less like

00:02:45.300 a celebration and frankly more like an act of resistance so today i want to introduce you to

00:02:51.620 someone who shapes the way that we all experience technology even if you've never heard of her name

00:02:57.060 susan care she designed the visual language of the early mac the icons the fonts the look and feel

00:03:05.460 that made personal computing something that people actually wanted to touch and use.

00:03:10.440 Back in 2021, I joined my friends Samantha and Annie over at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You

00:03:16.580 to dig into Susan Kerr's legacy, where she came from, what she built, and why it still matters today.

00:03:27.340 Hey, this is Annie.

00:03:28.720 And Samantha.

00:03:29.800 And welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio.

00:03:35.460 Today, we're so thrilled to be joined in the virtual studio space by our friend and colleague, Bridget Todd.

00:03:49.660 Hello, Bridget.

00:03:50.620 Hello. I'm so excited to be back here with you all.

00:03:53.180 Jose, we missed you. Welcome back.

00:03:55.240 Thank you. Thank you. I miss you too, as always.

00:03:58.200 You're so busy, though. We know. We know. You're constantly going.

00:04:02.320 Well, I can always make room for my two favorite ladies. 1.00

00:04:05.140 Oh, yes. 0.99

00:04:08.260 We were discussing before this.

00:04:09.780 We're very excited for this topic,

00:04:12.080 particularly because we have different levels of experience

00:04:14.680 when it comes to computers and technology.

00:04:17.620 And in this case, Samantha, you're saying you don't know Mac very well.

00:04:22.420 No, I am so not in the loop.

00:04:25.120 I've never used the Mac.

00:04:26.540 I don't have an iPhone.

00:04:28.120 I'm so far away from those products.

00:04:30.180 And I'm a little scared of it.

00:04:31.560 Because every time I've been on Friends,

00:04:33.540 I literally look at it and touch a button.

00:04:35.780 Something goes wrong and I hand it right back.

00:04:37.240 I'm like, I'm sorry.

00:04:38.180 You're like, I launched a missile. 0.96

00:04:39.540 I don't know what the f*** it is. 0.93

00:04:40.480 I'm sorry. 0.96

00:04:41.300 I'm pretty sure I just started a war somewhere.

00:04:43.420 I'm so sorry.

00:04:45.700 I feel like that too, though, because my phone is a swipe.

00:04:48.080 And one time my friend handed me her phone and was like,

00:04:50.720 can you text this message?

00:04:51.900 And it was not a swipe.

00:04:53.080 And I stared at it like, this makes no sense to me.

00:04:55.980 I cannot figure this out.

00:05:01.260 Yeah, when it becomes like technology,

00:05:03.540 When you're used to one way and then you try and figure out something else, I feel like it's a trap.

00:05:08.520 It's so true. It's so true.

00:05:09.980 So I use an iPhone.

00:05:11.540 Most of my friends do not use iPhones.

00:05:13.600 They use like Google Pixels.

00:05:15.060 When I am handed a Google Pixel, it does not matter how many times I've been schooled and had to do the most basic stuff.

00:05:21.220 I'm not talking about anything advanced.

00:05:23.540 I have to ask like, wait, is it this? Is it that?

00:05:25.520 Every time without him.

00:05:27.340 Right.

00:05:28.080 Which actually relates really well to what we're talking about today.

00:05:32.300 So who did you bring for us to discuss, Bridget?

00:05:35.320 So today we're discussing Susan Kerr.

00:05:37.460 I'm so excited to talk about her, mostly because it's Women's History Month.

00:05:40.900 And so I think it's a good time to honor women who, you know, maybe don't always get a lot of the loud public support.

00:05:48.740 And also the fact that Susan Kerr, despite being very much part of tech history, she's still alive.

00:05:54.420 She's still with us.

00:05:55.140 I'm a big believer in giving people their flowers while they're still alive to smell them.

00:05:59.740 And so not waiting until someone is no longer here to be like, oh, I loved their work.

00:06:05.260 I loved their work, but celebrating their achievements and their legacy while they're

00:06:09.200 still here.

00:06:09.720 She's very much still in tech, making tech history as we speak.

00:06:14.220 And I also just feel like sometimes I come on the show and I bring topics that are a

00:06:17.960 little negative because let's face it, sometimes being a woman on the Internet is not that

00:06:23.220 fun, but there's also lots of fun, joyous, cool, perky aspects of it as well.

00:06:28.860 Yes. And I never heard about her story. And I loved it so much because I know we've talked before on the show a lot about women in technology space and how there is often that these negative aspects to it or being intimidated off of it in various ways.

00:06:47.460 And as somebody who's really creative, like, we're in my cosplay closet, as I call it in here.

00:06:54.160 But like, I love the application of how she got into technology.

00:06:59.060 I think it is such a great story.

00:07:02.120 Yes, yes.

00:07:02.680 So let's get into it.

00:07:03.440 I mean, so if you've ever spent any time around, not just Macs, but computers in general, you've probably encountered Susan Kerr's work or her legacy.

00:07:11.040 So first and foremost, I should say, if you have not seen a picture of her, there's an iconic picture of her with this like awesome 80s blown out curly hair and a sweatshirt and these like amazing New Balance sneakers with her sneakers kicked up on her desk at her old school computer.

00:07:29.360 Y'all, please Google a picture of her because it is iconic.

00:07:32.560 And truly, just this one picture, I saw it on the subreddit old school cool.

00:07:37.520 I was like, who is this woman?

00:07:38.580 I have to look her up and find out everything about her. 0.63

00:07:40.940 She is amazing.

00:07:42.020 Yes, it's so effortlessly cool in a way that I will never achieve.

00:07:45.360 Like I saw it and I was like, wow.

00:07:48.080 I mean, like I'm looking at it right now.

00:07:50.100 I have to Google it.

00:07:51.040 And I'm like, this is kind of what people want to look like today outside of the outdated computers in the background.

00:07:57.340 Which, by the way, I used those in elementary school.

00:08:00.100 So don't start with me.

00:08:01.200 A.

00:08:01.840 B.

00:08:04.660 I'm like, no, you are.

00:08:06.420 She is exactly what people are like.

00:08:07.900 Oh, we want to look like this.

00:08:09.020 This is such a great throwback.

00:08:10.240 And she looks so comfortable, so relaxed and ridiculously cool.

00:08:13.440 I want to be this cool.

00:08:15.000 Yes.

00:08:15.240 She is an advertisement for Everlane.

00:08:17.520 I feel like the normcore vibe, baggy sweatshirt and relaxed fit jeans.

00:08:22.480 She's rocking it. 0.58

00:08:23.520 Honestly, you could wear the outfit that she's wearing in like 1980, 0.51

00:08:26.500 whenever this photo was taken, you could wear today and people would be like, oh, cool outfit.

00:08:31.580 That's what I'm saying. Like this outfit looks so comfortable. But again, yeah, she looks so

00:08:35.780 freaking stylish that I'm like, I don't want to be back here in this fashion because I did wear

00:08:41.120 that once upon a time. And that was when it was supposed to be cool when I was a young baby. So

00:08:44.780 I love it. So Susan Kerr, she designed a huge part of the digital infrastructure

00:08:52.920 of using a Mac computer back in the 80s.

00:08:55.640 And so I'm talking all of the fonts,

00:08:57.820 all of the typography and all of the little icons.

00:09:00.780 And so if you ever remember the little happy Mac

00:09:03.780 when you booted up a computer,

00:09:05.160 like the little computer with a smiley face,

00:09:07.300 that was Susan Kerr.

00:09:08.280 The concept of the icons for your computer

00:09:11.160 sort of matching up with the thing

00:09:12.600 that you were gonna do,

00:09:13.860 even if you don't use a Mac,

00:09:15.400 even if you use a PC,

00:09:16.700 that's still a concept that we use today.

00:09:18.460 So she really was an early architect

00:09:20.320 of how being online sort of looked and felt.

00:09:23.720 And then also just sort of the concept of it,

00:09:26.080 sort of how we conceptually move around

00:09:28.080 when we're using a computer.

00:09:29.280 And it's funny because I had also never heard of her.

00:09:32.440 I've been using a Mac for most of my life.

00:09:35.380 It was like the first computer that we had

00:09:36.920 in our home when I was a kid,

00:09:38.540 like in what my parents called the computer room,

00:09:42.560 where like you could never bring a snack or a drink

00:09:45.700 or my dad would kill you, was a Mac.

00:09:48.320 And I had never even heard of her,

00:09:49.540 even though she had shaped such a big part of my online experiences, both as a child and today.

00:09:55.120 So the little story that I had about this, like this Happy Mac,

00:09:58.300 and the one reason I kind of know what that is.

00:10:00.820 Now, I've seen the other things.

00:10:02.160 I've seen the watch little icon before.

00:10:04.640 I feel like a lot of these are associated to me as something bad is about to happen

00:10:08.380 because I did something wrong signs usually.

00:10:11.360 Because the one episode that I remember with Insects in the City,

00:10:15.540 and we're gonna go you know talking about where her mac crashes and she gets a sad mac and the

00:10:21.540 dude keeps telling her you got the sad mac sorry you can't fix it and this whole conversation about

00:10:27.740 the sad mac and I'm like why does it have to be a sad mac and then the dead mac because it's got

00:10:32.960 the x's on the eyes and about how angry it looks I was like yeah that does not make me want to get

00:10:38.640 a mac yeah I feel like that episode probably scared a lot of people also fun fact this is

00:10:45.180 how deep my sex in the city knowledge goes the guy who tells her that at the computer store

00:10:49.280 asif mondi from the daily show yes yes yes so i was like oh he's a comedian i love it when they

00:10:56.140 bring in comedians that you don't really know but you got you always know their face love it

00:11:00.580 love it and you gotta hop on board this is what you're missing out when you haven't seen sex in

00:11:05.200 the city wait and he's never seen it she's seen like two episodes i've seen one of the first

00:11:10.820 episode and that's it really girl what girl what are you putting on in the background while you're

00:11:16.220 like doing something else like what are you putting on in the background when you're doing

00:11:20.100 the dishes come on i'm ready i want to i want to embark on this journey i'm just a little nervous

00:11:27.400 but i so bridget when we have our sex in the city we're going to do a watch and like kind of a live

00:11:33.380 watching live viewing party you want to join us yes of course you know and they're getting ready

00:11:38.540 to make another reboot of the movie,

00:11:40.640 which, I mean,

00:11:41.820 I have a love-hate relationship

00:11:43.060 with Sex and the City

00:11:43.800 in that you look back

00:11:44.940 and you're like,

00:11:45.260 well, this was problematic

00:11:46.080 or like, well, this is not good.

00:11:48.000 But there's just something about it

00:11:49.040 where I'm like,

00:11:49.680 I know I'll probably watch it.

00:11:51.200 I know.

00:11:51.780 They're like,

00:11:52.700 you'll take this problematic movie

00:11:54.320 with a bunch of lazy puns.

00:11:56.280 Just take it.

00:11:57.000 They know what I want.

00:11:58.460 But I mean,

00:11:59.000 Sarah Jessica Parker's character

00:12:00.760 carries that Mac

00:12:02.380 at the very beginning,

00:12:03.520 like all the things,

00:12:04.560 the fact that she carries it around,

00:12:06.620 like it's her treasure.

00:12:07.640 like she carries it as this like she and the Mac go hand in hand in the show her work I feel is

00:12:13.480 grounded around the Mac like if you kept watching the episode toward the end when she moves to Paris

00:12:19.660 she leaves her Mac in her apartment so like Charlotte goes to her apartment and she's like

00:12:24.140 her computer was just sitting there like right it's such a big deal and it's actually funny that

00:12:28.900 you say this because when I was thinking through this episode I didn't think about this but now

00:12:32.960 I'm like, oh, my God, how many different times have Macs been?

00:12:37.960 I'm thinking of Legally Blonde when Elle Woods goes to get her orange Mac and all of her stuffy law students are on their black laptops and she's on the orange Mac. 0.89

00:12:49.040 Right. I guess I had never really thought about how many times Macs have been sort of part of popular culture.

00:12:56.260 It has. It kind of goes into like being a designer piece almost.

00:13:01.020 Yeah, I think I could be wrong,

00:13:03.580 but I'm pretty sure you don't have to get permission to show Mac.

00:13:08.160 Like normally you have to get the companies and pay,

00:13:11.140 but they wanted people to think like,

00:13:12.920 oh, this is a cool, stylish, ubiquitous technology.

00:13:16.580 I think the only time you have to check is if it's something like real, real bad.

00:13:20.360 Like real bad.

00:13:21.500 You're just next to beautiful. 0.99

00:13:23.180 Yeah, you're beating a man to death with it.

00:13:25.180 Yeah, I think that's the only time.

00:13:27.680 but i mean like i remember as i'm looking at some of these things i remember seeing the little bomb

00:13:34.340 icon as a part of the show as well and again like i said that to me is like a big warning sign

00:13:39.380 i mean yeah i don't know what the bomb means but the bomb means something bad

00:13:45.200 yeah the bomb you see the bomb designed by susan care yeah hopefully you never have to see it but

00:13:50.840 if you if you put in a command that doesn't work and it's like oh no good bad you know and also i

00:13:56.460 I mean, even though even the different icons that you're describing, the sad Mac, the bomb, one of the things that Susan Kerr really architected was this idea of the interface being super user friendly.

00:14:08.920 So when you do something that is bad, it is very obvious that it is bad.

00:14:12.340 It is a bomb. It is a sad face.

00:14:14.460 It could not be more clear that you have done something incorrect or when something is good.

00:14:18.660 You know, when you would boot up a Mac, you would see a smiley face.

00:14:21.020 All of that was intentionally designed by care to make people who might have been using a computer for the first time, who might have been a little bit skittish about using a computer, help them sort of shepherd them through the experience in ways that are super easy to understand, which I really appreciate as someone who, even as someone who enjoys tech, can sometimes be a little bit tech challenged, shall we say?

00:14:41.940 You're right.

00:14:43.000 As I am.

00:14:44.060 It definitely tells me when I'm doing something wrong.

00:14:45.780 Definitely, I'm like, oh, I'm just waiting.

00:14:47.980 Great.

00:14:48.740 And look at that happy face.

00:14:50.780 Exactly.

00:14:52.120 Yes.

00:14:52.480 And those are things you take for granted, right?

00:14:54.220 Like somebody had to think through that process and design those things, especially when computers

00:15:01.020 were so new and people were like, what is this huge behemoth thing that's expensive?

00:15:06.180 I don't want to wreck it by pressing the wrong button.

00:15:09.360 Exactly.

00:15:09.880 And I mean, what's funny is that like some people who are a bit younger might be thinking,

00:15:13.300 oh, what's the big deal?

00:15:14.080 But truly, like keep in mind that back then in the early days of personal computers, most

00:15:18.760 people did not have a personal computer in their home at that point. And so computers were these

00:15:23.180 big, clunky, boxy nightmares that were really inclined toward mathematicians or engineers,

00:15:29.220 not just like your regular user. And so somebody had to take the time to design ways of illustrating

00:15:35.960 what you were doing in ways that would be simple and user-friendly and not scary, not intimidating.

00:15:41.980 Because if, you know, if the whole idea is that you want people to feel the freedom of having a

00:15:46.040 personal computer like in their house, it has to feel like something they can really master

00:15:49.760 themselves. And so Susan Kerr's design, I think, was a big part of why personal computing later

00:15:54.460 took on or took off. Right. Her history is pretty interesting. Why don't you tell us how she even

00:16:00.880 got started into this industry? So this is my favorite thing. So her background was in art,

00:16:07.280 right? So she was a sculptor. She worked in visual arts. And so she is not someone who has

00:16:12.440 hard technical skills. She described herself as completely non-technical. And the reason that she

00:16:17.500 first got involved in graphic design in the first place is because her mom taught her these skills

00:16:22.900 that we, I guess, commonly associate with femininity. So like needlepoint and embroidery,

00:16:27.340 which luckily those two skills work in small grids. So if you've ever done needlepoint,

00:16:33.580 you know, you're moving a thread through like a tiny box. And so when she was designing things

00:16:38.100 on a computer for Apple, it also was a small box.

00:16:41.500 And so if it wasn't for her mom teaching her

00:16:43.860 these highly kind of like domestic tasks, 0.80

00:16:47.780 we might not, like personal computing

00:16:49.240 might have gone a completely different direction.

00:16:51.660 And so I just love that

00:16:53.020 because it's such a good reminder

00:16:54.260 that you don't have to be a coder,

00:16:57.840 you don't have to be a hacker

00:16:59.100 to make an impression in tech

00:17:02.200 or to have ownership over it.

00:17:03.700 And so I always like to remember that,

00:17:05.720 that if it wasn't for her mom teaching her how to sew

00:17:07.920 and do needlepoint,

00:17:09.040 surely I might not be recording

00:17:10.400 this podcast on my MacBook Pro

00:17:12.320 right now.

00:17:12.780 I think it might look different.

00:17:24.320 Behind every night spent

00:17:25.780 making the kids lunches,

00:17:27.060 there's a lot of suspense.

00:17:28.520 Will they finally eat the veggies?

00:17:30.020 Will the pesto survive

00:17:31.040 the first bite?

00:17:32.060 Will the lunchbox come home empty,

00:17:34.080 half full,

00:17:34.720 or come home at all?

00:17:36.100 And will you finish episode eight

00:17:37.520 before you're done slicing the cucumbers?

00:17:40.040 Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus

00:17:43.200 from $94 a month, price guaranteed for two years on Internet

00:17:46.500 with a two-year term and auto-pay credit.

00:17:48.760 Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability.

00:17:51.460 Bell, connection is everything.

00:17:53.780 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

00:17:56.520 Think again.

00:17:57.480 More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music

00:18:00.540 from Spotify and Pandora.

00:18:02.120 And as the number one podcaster,

00:18:03.860 iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

00:18:06.040 So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

00:18:09.320 Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.

00:18:13.540 Think podcasting can help your business?

00:18:15.420 Think iHeart.

00:18:16.460 Streaming, radio, and podcasting.

00:18:18.540 Call 844-844-iHeart to get started.

00:18:21.680 That's 844-844-iHeart.

00:18:24.120 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:18:30.040 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:18:34.440 part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks

00:18:38.640 Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:18:42.520 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:18:46.220 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:18:49.500 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:18:53.060 From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,

00:18:58.080 nothing is off the table.

00:18:59.160 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.

00:19:07.100 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

00:19:16.240 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:19:22.160 See you between the pages.

00:19:23.360 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:19:30.140 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:19:36.500 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:19:40.200 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:19:45.640 shut up, don't say anything.

00:19:48.220 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.99

00:19:51.360 unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling

00:19:58.660 that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started screaming. They are abducted,

00:20:06.160 stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:20:12.240 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with

00:20:17.800 Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:20:25.260 Our town is small taters by most standards, right? But to the people who grew up here,

00:20:30.240 it's everything. What happens when a quiet Tennessee town becomes the front line in a

00:20:35.320 battle over the future of America? Developers with right-wing ties have purchased hundreds

00:20:40.200 of acres of land in the area. The first thing you see when it pops up is pioneers in Appalachia.

00:20:46.020 But they weren't just planting houses.

00:20:48.520 We need cities on a shining hill that exemplify and embody the Christian way of life. 0.89

00:20:54.280 Stop right there. Is that normal? 1.00

00:20:56.600 A podcast about what happens when a small town becomes the site of a social experiment. 0.99

00:21:02.060 God need men to rule. Great. 0.99

00:21:03.580 And decides to fight back. 1.00

00:21:05.500 Do not use my hard work to sell your bulls**t. 0.99

00:21:09.580 They're not just opposing what's being planned for here. 0.99

00:21:13.680 Our hometown is not a test tube.

00:21:15.760 They feel like they're standing in opposition to an entire administration. 1.00

00:21:19.560 Guess you didn't move in on a bunch of dumb hillbillies now, did you? 0.95

00:21:22.080 Listen to Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0.96

00:21:36.060 When you're thinking about people you do associate with, particularly Mac, but like technology and computers in general, it is often men.

00:21:43.840 then you do often have this assumption that oh there must be like really technically minded and

00:21:49.240 gotten a lot of education in those fields and like the names we remember are them but this is

00:21:56.460 a huge part what Susan Care did is a huge part of how the technology we use particularly with

00:22:03.440 Max but in other things um and it is what you like a non-traditional route and this sort of 0.98

00:22:11.200 feminized skill set in this kind of traditionally masculinized or seen as a very masculine field.

00:22:18.080 And I just love it. I love it so much. Yeah, it makes me, it's a good reminder for all of us. You

00:22:23.120 know, I did an interview on my own podcast with this really amazing historian and technologist,

00:22:27.560 Claire Evans, and she has this book all about the history of women in computing. And I guess

00:22:32.260 the thesis would be, you know, that we are often told that technology is a boys club and that women

00:22:38.040 and other marginalized people are trying to like break, break their way in. But actually women have 1.00

00:22:42.860 been at the start of computing since the beginning. And so it's like rightfully our domain. We are 1.00

00:22:46.520 not trying to break in anywhere. Like it is our landscape. And that some of the reasons why

00:22:51.180 women kind of get pushed out of tech, both, you know, in terms of like careers, but also just in

00:22:57.600 terms of like who gets remembered, who doesn't, who goes overlooked. First of all, just to be 1.00

00:23:01.340 clear, a lot of it is just good old fashioned sexism, like nothing's nothing special about

00:23:06.900 that. But then another aspect of it is exactly what you were saying, is that a lot of times

00:23:11.740 the contributions that women have made to computers and technology are things that are

00:23:17.220 a little bit harder to preserve. And so, you know, if you make an actual computer, that can go in a 1.00

00:23:23.200 museum. That's a solid, tangible thing. If you design a concept or, you know, do something cool

00:23:30.360 on a message board or develop an icon or, you know, something graphic that is less tangible,

00:23:36.900 those things are harder to preserve and sort of more ephemeral.

00:23:39.700 And so a lot of that work throughout the years

00:23:42.680 has been associated with women and feminization,

00:23:45.200 this idea that like women are a lot of the times 1.00

00:23:47.440 the ones who are building the things 1.00

00:23:50.160 that are a little more difficult to hold on to.

00:23:52.560 And thus these contributions can really go overlooked

00:23:55.480 unless we make intentional efforts to preserve them,

00:23:58.980 to highlight them, to amplify them, all of that.

00:24:01.800 So completely agree, completely agree.

00:24:04.280 Yes, I mean, here we are talking about it.

00:24:06.600 And because I'll take every opportunity to bring it up, I do think, too, if you look at something like fan fiction, the website AO3 was one of the biggest coding projects of its time.

00:24:17.200 And it was women who did it, but it doesn't get a lot of respect because it's women and marginalized people who did it.

00:24:22.180 And it's seen as this kind of weird corner of women fandom and not therefore not worth the respect as something else more masculine.

00:24:32.560 Right. Technology is nothing without people using it for something. 0.98

00:24:36.600 right without users and so and those people who were who were building that they were architects

00:24:42.020 of something important and like that we would not even see that as worthy of preservation or like

00:24:47.340 mentioning is a real crime and I think we really do have to go back and look at history and say 0.75

00:24:52.360 well where are the times where because this was associated with women or marginalized people 0.66

00:24:56.880 just doing something geeky on the internet you know how women are whether it's fan fiction or 0.86

00:25:02.080 you know, recipe blogs or anything like that. Why do those things not deserve to be remembered in 1.00

00:25:08.340 the same way that some of the other more obvious contributions to computing and technology in our

00:25:14.460 digital landscape? But I completely agree that we need to have a whole scale sort of rethinking of

00:25:19.360 what is worthy of preservation, because I'm not down to just live in a world where the stuff that 0.62

00:25:25.000 we make, that marginalized people that women make, it's just not worthy of preservation. No way. 0.99

00:25:29.800 Right. Yeah, absolutely not. Thank you for letting me bring up fan fiction all the time. I cannot help myself. But I also think it's a good like correlation to Susan Kerr's story where there is this sort of like creative, non-technical thing that she was involved with.

00:25:48.980 And she was able to translate that into technology because there was this need.

00:25:56.820 And I think also, like, again, having to kind of predict what people's concerns would be and like predict what would soothe those concerns and be clear, like coming, perhaps coming from a different background actually helped her with that.

00:26:12.740 I think so.

00:26:13.380 I love that point.

00:26:14.440 I think so.

00:26:15.140 So she said that when she first got the call to design things for Apple, she was just like, I don't know what any of this is.

00:26:21.700 I love this little detail.

00:26:22.720 She was in the middle of working on a life-size sculpture of a hog.

00:26:27.060 If that doesn't tell you all you know about her hair, I feel like that really.

00:26:35.080 Oh, I want to know if she finished it.

00:26:38.060 Yes.

00:26:38.560 Oh, that's a good question.

00:26:39.840 I want to know.

00:26:40.500 I want to see this picture of what she was working on.

00:26:42.760 Did she get to finish it?

00:26:44.540 Yes.

00:26:45.140 I need a picture.

00:26:46.460 Internet blues, please.

00:26:50.320 Elbow deep and hog, right?

00:26:52.320 Yes.

00:26:53.860 She gets this call from Andy Hertzfield, who she had gone to high school with.

00:26:57.820 And he was a member of the original Apple Macintosh development team during the 80s.

00:27:02.400 And he asked her to hand draw some icons and fonts to help inspire what was going to be this Mac interface.

00:27:08.380 This was a completely new concept to her.

00:27:09.840 She's like, I had no idea what I was doing.

00:27:11.340 But luckily, Andy had an idea because he knew that she worked with design and graphics.

00:27:16.460 He told her to go out and buy the smallest, tiniest graph paper that she could find and

00:27:21.340 then use it to block out 32 by 32 inch squares and build them with color to kind of come

00:27:26.280 up with the designs because what she would be designing would be a matrix that was essentially

00:27:30.180 a grid.

00:27:30.760 So again, back to that sort of needlepoint embroidery upbringing that she had, which

00:27:36.900 really helped her work in this grid function like truly probably could not have provided a better

00:27:42.200 basis or education for the work that she would go on to be doing that she had no idea you know

00:27:47.180 that she would be so foundational in and luckily these skills really came to her rescue she says

00:27:54.600 bitmap graphics are like mosaics and needlepoint and other pseudo digital art forms all of which

00:27:59.980 i had practiced before going to apple this is what she told somebody in an interview in 2000 so

00:28:03.880 again, you never know what skill is going to apply later in your life. Like I'm sure when

00:28:10.220 her mom was teaching her needlepoint, she probably was like, this is really fun and awesome. She

00:28:14.540 probably was not thinking, and I will go on to revolutionize personal computing because you

00:28:19.340 taught me how to do needlepoint, mom. Yeah. So I run a Dungeons and Dragons campaign

00:28:27.400 and I use Python coding to run it.

00:28:33.020 So basically Python is a bunch of if then statements.

00:28:36.660 But I think you can take like a really creative,

00:28:41.800 non-technical thing and you can construct it in a way

00:28:44.640 where you can like make it work in that sense.

00:28:47.820 Because if you think about like conversation,

00:28:50.600 if X, then Y, like you can, I don't know,

00:28:53.320 it's something I find really interesting

00:28:54.900 that you can take those things

00:28:57.580 and you can experiment with them in that way.

00:29:02.060 You could take Needlepoint

00:29:03.100 and think about it in this way of like coding.

00:29:05.560 Like I love that stuff.

00:29:07.880 Are there other things that you have learned

00:29:09.440 that you feel might help you

00:29:11.660 when you're coding in Python?

00:29:13.520 Like are there other skills that you're like,

00:29:14.980 oh, I wouldn't have thought

00:29:15.680 that this would be something that would help me

00:29:18.060 think about Python,

00:29:19.680 but actually has been helpful.

00:29:21.480 So something that helps me like use Python more

00:29:24.600 or just in general in in the work that you do when you're building out these things

00:29:28.880 the reason I started doing that is because essentially it's almost exactly like this you

00:29:33.480 have to when you're running a game you have to predict what people are going to do and that

00:29:39.180 could be anything right like that could be literally anything and so you it's like project

00:29:45.300 management where you have to analyze a person and then try to make that work in a game system,

00:29:55.180 right? Like in a kind of technical rule-based game. So you've got this like really illogical,

00:30:01.180 chaotic person. Now I've got to make that work in a way where I can say like, if X, then Y,

00:30:08.220 so the game doesn't break. So I would say like reading people and project management,

00:30:14.000 because again a lot of interactions in life it's almost cold to think of it this way but you can

00:30:21.240 see in a like technical sense of like person why needs this therefore these actions happen like you

00:30:28.060 can map out to a certain extent people and their behavior that's so fascinating it's a whole theorem

00:30:37.660 you have to do all these little like hypotheses of this may happen so you have to problem solve

00:30:42.880 ahead of time, which I know nothing about Dungeons and Dragons, just what she tells me.

00:30:48.440 It's wild.

00:30:49.920 I mean, it completely is.

00:30:51.320 And I think if you take that to its logical next step, like in tech workplaces and stuff,

00:30:57.180 this is why I always say, if you're someone who's listening and you're like, I want to

00:31:00.200 be more involved in tech, I want to work in a tech space.

00:31:01.840 You do not have to have tech hard skills to be someone who makes your living or takes

00:31:07.540 up a big footprint in tech.

00:31:08.920 People need to have people reading skills, problem solving skills, critical thinking

00:31:12.540 skills. Those are not, you know, necessarily what we think of as like tech hard skills. But these

00:31:17.440 are all things that go into, you know, working, like being able to think in this way. And so I

00:31:24.180 just love this example, because I think it really does illustrate how all of these different skills

00:31:28.820 that aren't necessarily the tech, the hard skill or knowing Python or knowing, you know, knowing

00:31:34.520 the code, they will help you when you're when you're doing these kinds of things. It's like a

00:31:38.620 whole way of thinking. I love that example. I mean, there's definitely a whole correlation

00:31:42.880 between art, music, and math. And we know that that's been proven to be a linkage. And which

00:31:47.960 is why when people talk about losing arts and losing music is really detrimental for a lot

00:31:52.800 of kids' learnings and just overall development. And this is one of those more things because

00:31:57.080 not only was she doing art, which she's amazing at, which I saw some of the pieces that she's

00:32:00.920 selling now. I'm like, wow, it's gorgeous. But that translated into, yeah, these little squares

00:32:06.280 and dots, which also equals numbers and such.

00:32:10.580 This is me knowing all this stuff, obviously.

00:32:12.500 But the fact that there's a greater picture

00:32:14.480 of how it's all correlated and it is linked.

00:32:17.860 Oh, absolutely.

00:32:18.820 And I mean, that's why I obviously am such a big advocate

00:32:22.300 for young people going into STEM and STEAM fields

00:32:25.460 and getting that kind of education.

00:32:27.480 But I also think you're exactly right

00:32:29.380 that you have to have a well-rounded approach.

00:32:31.860 And so if we lose the arts,

00:32:33.840 if we lose music and the funding for these things,

00:32:36.280 When people are like, oh, well, just learn to code and get a job like that, it'll be so much harder if these students are not well-rounded students who do not have a well-rounded arts education.

00:32:46.420 And so, you know, I am an English major, right?

00:32:49.380 Like I did not have a hard skills background.

00:32:52.000 So many people who made a big splash in tech had arts degrees, humanities degrees, you know, studied music, studied literature.

00:32:59.160 And so I definitely am a big advocate for a well-rounded approach.

00:33:03.120 I am not someone who is like, oh, just learn to code.

00:33:05.820 That'll solve all your problems because we do need all kinds of skills to have, you know, young people who are really equipped to go into these fields.

00:33:14.680 Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things in this story, in Susan Carey's story, is one of my favorite kind of random, I guess it's a good tell of when you grew up in terms of technology when you're talking about your legacy.

00:33:30.180 because if you examine some of these symbols,

00:33:32.480 like my ex-boyfriend used to argue so hard,

00:33:35.120 like we need to redefine what these mean

00:33:36.920 because they don't mean the same thing anymore.

00:33:39.180 Right.

00:33:39.780 One is the icon for saving,

00:33:43.100 if you could talk about that.

00:33:44.480 Oh, it is such a good one.

00:33:45.840 So Susan Carrick came up with that concept

00:33:47.560 of the icon being an association

00:33:50.680 or an illustration of the thing that you were doing.

00:33:52.920 So like the paint bucket being used

00:33:54.520 to fill a surface with color

00:33:55.400 or like the scissors being used to be the cut function.

00:33:57.900 So when you think about the save function, right?

00:34:01.040 So if you are a contemporary of me, and I think Annie and Samantha, I think you all as well.

00:34:07.080 When you were saving something, you had to save it on a floppy disk.

00:34:10.340 You could put a floppy disk, that square with the metal thing on it, into your computer.

00:34:15.020 And not only that, you had to manually hit save every, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes.

00:34:20.960 Otherwise, it wouldn't save.

00:34:22.120 Now, here in 2021, you're probably working in Google Docs or some other kind of interface.

00:34:26.520 it saves it automatically you don't have to put any kind of external thing into your computer for

00:34:32.520 to save the this the concept is is so different yet the little disc it's still the image for

00:34:39.300 save and so I almost wonder like I don't know that young people know what that I like they're

00:34:45.220 probably not as innately familiar with like the floppy disk as they are yet that is still the

00:34:50.880 icon for save even though you don't even really have to save like you used to right it's funny

00:34:55.800 how it's endured yeah oh my god you just reminded me we did a time capsule i think in my eighth

00:35:02.180 grade sixth grade year and i think i put in a thing of floppy disk like blank ones

00:35:06.600 yeah god i have a lot of floppy disk memories i remember oh my god if he's listening to this

00:35:13.680 he's gonna kill me my older brother he had to do a um class project and at the time we were fighting

00:35:20.640 and i remember he had it on a floppy disk that he left on the computer and i swapped it out with a

00:35:26.700 blank one so like i put his i put his in my backpack and put a blank one on on the computer

00:35:32.140 so when he got to school he was like wait where's my project oh that's me

00:35:37.100 that's real petty it was very petty

00:35:43.240 if he's listening to this i apologize but you know your deserved it

00:35:48.440 but you know that's what you deserve on your side Bridget yes thank you but yeah no I just

00:35:54.940 remembered that because I knew that it would be outdated by that point I was right you were right

00:35:59.320 you were you were like prophetic here I know right I'm sure it costs a lot of money so I can't believe

00:36:03.520 I did that oh they used to be hella expensive the box of them was like $30 yeah I'm trying to remind

00:36:08.660 I was like why maybe I put one I just remember putting something to do with a floppy disk so

00:36:12.500 like I'm gonna put this in here because it's gonna make it dumb I love it it's like one of

00:36:17.900 those things you know how i think some comedian has this this line in his stand-up where when

00:36:22.600 you're driving and you want someone to roll down their window even though most cars no longer have

00:36:28.440 the crank that's still the motion that you do to tell someone even though you're like well the

00:36:33.060 cars haven't really had this for a while why am i doing this that's still the enduring motion that

00:36:38.260 you do but it keeps it yeah that's the things like she created this in the 80s and it's still

00:36:43.480 iconic and it's still used today and even though i may not have known what a mac was it was

00:36:49.140 definitely universally used right well and that's funny to think about too because there's some

00:36:54.840 technologies like the floppy disk that did just go by the wayside and that's one of my favorite

00:36:59.240 things of back to the future too when they thought the fax machine was gonna be the thing

00:37:02.980 um but like the you have a story in here about like the copy machine right what she so she was

00:37:10.080 initially going to have the copy function be a little illustration of a copy machine that you

00:37:14.760 would drag and drop your file that you wanted to be duplicated onto the copier but copy machines

00:37:20.440 are like kind of complicated and like difficult to render at that size and so that didn't work

00:37:26.240 and then she got this idea to try an illustration of a cat in a mirror which I feel like that really

00:37:32.480 tells me a lot about how she was thinking about these illustrations like that's a really like

00:37:37.960 using a cat looking into a mirror as a way to illustrate the copy functionality i don't know

00:37:44.980 i just find that to be a very interesting manifestation of what the copy function does

00:37:49.840 you know what i mean right yes maybe because it started with a c but i approved that i want that

00:37:53.880 now i know i wish that was the case that's the direction we got and i can just imagine i mean

00:37:59.980 that would be iconic if that is what it was like today that'd be on shirts like the cat just

00:38:07.520 staring into the mirror yeah the copycat I mean yeah I kind of get it yeah yeah I love it I'm so

00:38:17.360 good that is a creative mind like perhaps not the most intuitive like that like I think that what

00:38:26.480 she ended up going with was like much better but it's like I can sort of see her her logic I guess

00:38:31.880 in what she was going for with the with the copycat in the mirror yes it's so good I'm good

00:38:37.480 with it i would have proved that immediately behind every night spent making the kids lunches

00:38:51.240 there's a lot of suspense will they finally eat the veggies will the pesto survive the first bite

00:38:56.160 will the lunchbox come home empty half full or come home at all and will you finish episode eight

00:39:01.840 before you're done slicing the cucumbers get bell pure fiber internet with crave netflix and disney

00:39:07.200 Plus, from $94 a month, price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto-pay credit.

00:39:13.060 Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability.

00:39:15.760 Bell. Connection is everything.

00:39:18.100 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

00:39:20.840 Think again.

00:39:21.820 More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

00:39:26.360 And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

00:39:30.620 So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

00:39:33.340 Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.

00:39:37.840 Think podcasting can help your business?

00:39:39.740 Think iHeart.

00:39:40.760 Streaming, radio, and podcasting.

00:39:42.840 Call 844-844-IHEART to get started.

00:39:45.980 That's 844-844-IHEART.

00:39:48.420 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:39:54.360 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,

00:40:00.520 pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the

00:40:05.100 same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:40:10.520 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:40:13.940 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. So obsessed.

00:40:17.520 From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,

00:40:22.380 nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling

00:40:28.520 characters and that is a trojan horse whether you're looking for literary deep dives smart

00:40:33.780 pop culture conversations or a community of readers who love to think a little too much

00:40:38.540 you're in the right place listen to pro society on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever

00:40:45.020 you get your podcasts see you between the pages when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held

00:40:52.400 captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:40:58.640 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. I just

00:41:04.780 remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything. Every week I'm 0.68

00:41:13.920 with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going

00:41:20.900 to hurt me i started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started

00:41:27.600 screaming they are abducted stalked controlled and nearly silenced but these aren't stories

00:41:34.320 about what's taken from them they're stories about what it takes to make it out alive

00:41:39.700 listen to the survivor files with elizabeth smart on the iheart radio app apple podcasts

00:41:45.980 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:41:49.580 Our town is small taters by most standards, right?

00:41:52.740 But to the people who grew up here, it's everything.

00:41:55.800 What happens when a quiet Tennessee town

00:41:57.980 becomes the front line in a battle

00:41:59.940 over the future of America?

00:42:01.960 Developers with right-wing ties

00:42:03.580 have purchased hundreds of acres of land in the area.

00:42:06.380 The first thing you see when it pops up

00:42:08.240 is pioneers in Appalachia.

00:42:10.560 But they weren't just planting houses.

00:42:12.640 We need cities on a shining hill

00:42:14.720 that exemplify and embody the Christian way of life. 1.00

00:42:18.580 Stop right there. Is that normal? 0.67

00:42:20.900 A podcast about what happens when a small town

00:42:23.660 becomes the site of a social experiment. 0.99

00:42:26.340 God need men to rule. Great. 0.97

00:42:27.900 And decides to fight back. 1.00

00:42:29.800 Do not use my hard work to sell your bull****. 0.96

00:42:33.880 They're not just opposing what's being planned for here. 0.97

00:42:38.200 Our hometown is not a test tube.

00:42:40.020 They feel like they're standing in opposition to an entire administration. 1.00

00:42:43.580 Guess you didn't move in on a bunch of dumb hillbillies now, did you? 0.95

00:42:46.400 Listen to Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0.96

00:43:00.120 So at the top, you said that Care's still alive today.

00:43:04.720 What's she up to?

00:43:06.100 So that's my favorite thing about this story is that I feel so often when we're talking about somebody who had a great impact,

00:43:12.440 we're talking about them after they have, you know, aged out of whatever they're doing or they've

00:43:18.360 passed away. Not care. Care is still very much alive and very much involved in tech.

00:43:23.920 So today she works at Pinterest, where you are probably familiar if you use Pinterest with some

00:43:28.440 of her current designs. She designed the image on Pinterest that is modeled after the push pin

00:43:32.920 that symbolizes pinning an item. So again, that kind of idea of having the icon be kind of a

00:43:41.060 visualization of what the user is supposed to be doing and the spinning button that appears on

00:43:45.900 Pinterest when you refresh. So very much still a person involved in imagining what tech looks like

00:43:53.260 today. The tech that we use all the time, if you use Pinterest, she's in your, her designs are in

00:43:57.540 your pocket, you know, which I just, I just love. Yeah. You can also find her notebooks today. They're

00:44:01.900 part of the permanent collections at the New York and San Francisco Modern Art Museum, which the one

00:44:06.340 in New York is my favorite art museum on the planet. It's so cool. And one was included in the

00:44:10.420 recent London Design Museum exhibit called California Designing Freedom. So, yeah, she still

00:44:15.940 is this, you know, representing this past and present and perhaps future of design when it

00:44:22.440 comes to tech, you know, still out there, still shaping how we conceptualize the tech that we use

00:44:27.260 every day. I love that so much. And I just realized that I guess if you look at movies or TV show,

00:44:34.100 that's another application where it's not necessarily a real world application. But if

00:44:38.420 you were a designer and you're designing like something sci-fi what will this look like in the

00:44:42.900 future what does this like technology or button or whatever represent and then being able to

00:44:47.200 communicate that to audiences so yeah there's a lot of applications here definitely definitely

00:44:53.820 did you say samantha she has art you can still get yeah oh yes she uh had a collection where

00:45:01.980 some of the and i don't know samantha i don't know if this is what you're referring to but

00:45:05.720 if you go to teraprince.com, you can find her limited edition prints. And they include like

00:45:11.640 the like little logos and things that she designed. You can get like the sad Mac on a poster or the

00:45:18.400 time bomb on a t-shirt. Like some of her stuff is really nice. Like I really wouldn't mind

00:45:24.660 one of these blankets that have all these different icons on it that she designed.

00:45:30.120 And what's funny is that when you go to teraprince.com, they talk about how she was one of

00:45:33.780 the original originators of what we think of today as you know emojis and so I hadn't even

00:45:38.420 really thought about that that her designs is why and I'm emoji obsessed if you ever text me

00:45:43.340 get ready to get a million emojis but yeah just how how fundamental that is in terms of how we

00:45:48.680 think of you know representing things online yes and that's another great example of what we were

00:45:54.520 talking about earlier where emojis filled a gap that was missing right and you had to like kind

00:46:00.280 of envision what are these emotions what is this trying to convey and like that is

00:46:08.440 another example of something that's kind of artistic but being in this very kind of technical

00:46:15.780 world right also any i don't know i this is what i read earlier it has something that is uh related

00:46:23.500 to your superpower one of your useless superpowers uh which is including fonts or typeface

00:46:29.860 you can recognize 0.96

00:46:32.120 I wasn't sure

00:46:34.020 which super tomorrow

00:46:34.800 we were discussing

00:46:35.480 when I was calling you out

00:46:36.780 which I'm like

00:46:38.420 I don't know

00:46:38.820 you could be lying to me

00:46:39.780 just randomly naming a font

00:46:41.800 and I'm just believing you

00:46:42.860 but yeah

00:46:43.540 because like Chicago

00:46:44.520 was one of the

00:46:45.580 I know that was one of her

00:46:46.320 first type things

00:46:47.380 is what it's called

00:46:47.920 and then the emojis

00:46:49.080 which was

00:46:49.420 is it Cairo

00:46:50.680 is that how you say that

00:46:51.840 C-A-I-R-O

00:46:53.400 but that's the blanket 1.00

00:46:54.600 right

00:46:55.180 so she went even further

00:46:57.080 into the world of

00:46:58.200 computer stuff. I'm so official, y'all. I'm amazing. But the fact that she actually created

00:47:04.360 typeface, I actually created like fonts is an interesting thing because I've always wondered

00:47:08.040 who does this? And also, Annie, why do you know these? Could you recognize what Chicago looks

00:47:13.440 like? Chicago 12. I want to test you now. For the listeners who don't know this, I have a

00:47:21.520 very useless superpower. It's not as good anymore because I used to edit video all the time. And I

00:47:28.000 actually would because a font does convey an emotion right it does help shape whatever everybody

00:47:33.680 loves comic sans right no future that's what everybody loves and so i can recognize a font

00:47:40.500 like it is one of my most annoying you get a little alcohol on me and i'll be like there's

00:47:44.740 future there's nancy's chalkboard i apologize to anyone i've ever done that to do you have a

00:47:53.620 favorite font oh that's a good question because i used to really love i loved the ones that

00:47:58.920 looked like people's handwriting so i did really like marker felt one with a very little bit of

00:48:08.780 drop shadow very little or like nancy's i like nancy's chalkboard but i don't know if i would

00:48:13.760 say those are my favorite but they were ones i'd turn to a lot because they i wanted the those

00:48:19.020 videos to feel very approachable which is actually the stuff i've never told you videos so they're

00:48:22.620 on YouTube and can go look at all my chalk and marker-based fonts. I need to do this right away.

00:48:30.560 I also love a good font, you know, like I'm not even someone who is technical in this way,

00:48:34.820 but like good design is really important. Like bad design. I can't tell you how many times I've

00:48:39.840 been on like a restaurant website page where I'm like, this is so infuriating. The font is terrible

00:48:45.700 and this user experience is terrible. I don't even want to go to this restaurant anymore. Like

00:48:48.940 good design can really open some doors

00:48:53.340 and bad design can really close them.

00:48:55.400 I'll just put it that way.

00:48:56.480 It's what matters.

00:48:58.380 You are completely correct.

00:49:00.440 But no, I did like that.

00:49:01.400 I was like, oh, look, she did this and this.

00:49:03.760 And then that blanket, I was like, oh, I love this blanket.

00:49:05.620 It just has all those essentially emojis

00:49:07.500 that's all over her blankets that she designed.

00:49:10.860 I was like, that is so cool.

00:49:11.920 And then I thought about the fact that

00:49:13.100 Annie loves talking about how she has a superpower.

00:49:16.800 So you're welcome for telling everyone

00:49:18.640 your superpower it's a good power right it's probably my most useless one but also the safest

00:49:26.380 one i'm glad you went in that direction wait okay 0.58

00:49:31.300 silence i killed this i killed that conversation real good y'all you're welcome

00:49:38.820 um well when it comes to to care uh and these icons she's gonna have like her legacy is a

00:49:49.300 lasting legacy it is a lasting legacy and i guess yeah as i said i think it's important to highlight

00:49:54.860 you know what she did was important you know i i couldn't tell you whether or not personal

00:50:00.180 computing would be the same if not for care but i know that she had an impact and i think it's

00:50:04.660 important to recognize and i also just think it's important to again underscore that she

00:50:08.280 did all of this as a non-technical person. She told the Smithsonian about her time at Apple.

00:50:13.060 I loved working on that project. I always felt so lucky for the opportunity to be a non-technical

00:50:17.640 person in a software group. I was awed by being able to collaborate with such creative, capable,

00:50:22.640 and dedicated engineers. And yeah, I think it's really awesome that she was holding it down on

00:50:28.740 this group of engineers as a non-technical woman doing her thing and really building out a lasting

00:50:36.640 enduring legacy in a field where things don't often last and don't often endure in this way.

00:50:41.480 So I think it's really important to recognize her work.

00:50:44.120 I do too. And I think, you know, even looking back at the time when she was doing this

00:50:49.940 and being a woman in this non-technical space and, I don't know, creating these things that 0.99

00:50:56.420 have lasted. It's just very, very inspiring. And I'm glad that you brought this story to

00:51:02.540 her attention Bridget. Thank you for giving me the space to nerd out on this. Honestly it truly

00:51:09.320 is because I saw that badass picture of her on old school cool on Reddit. So whoever put that

00:51:13.860 on Reddit thank you. Yes. Listeners please if you have not seen that picture look it up. She is

00:51:19.020 amazing. Yes. Yes. It's so cool. Just so cool. Just goals. If I had goals that would be one of them.

00:51:27.440 yeah her picture

00:51:29.200 you can achieve this

00:51:33.700 Samantha now

00:51:34.300 I don't think so

00:51:35.420 I would fall out

00:51:36.160 like there's so many

00:51:36.900 levels of cold

00:51:37.400 that I couldn't hit

00:51:38.240 and one of them

00:51:39.520 would be actually

00:51:39.920 sitting like that

00:51:41.060 yeah I'm worried 0.96

00:51:42.780 for her back health

00:51:43.680 she's like really

00:51:44.440 leaned back

00:51:45.040 well thanks as always

00:51:50.080 for being here Bridget

00:51:51.900 where can the listeners

00:51:52.860 find you

00:51:53.480 well if you want more

00:51:55.060 nerding out

00:51:55.880 on all things tech

00:51:56.900 and the internet and things of that nature,

00:51:58.860 you can definitely check out my podcast

00:52:00.440 on iHeartRadio called 0.98

00:52:01.860 There Are No Girls on the Internet. 1.00

00:52:03.220 We would love to have you there.

00:52:04.800 And you can follow me on social media.

00:52:06.660 I'm at Bridget Marie on Twitter

00:52:08.600 and at Bridget Marie in D.C. on Instagram.

00:52:11.860 Yes.

00:52:12.500 So go check out that podcast 1.00

00:52:14.880 and follow Bridget if you don't already. 1.00

00:52:17.000 Listeners, and we can't wait to have you again, Bridget.

00:52:19.940 Oh, I can't wait.

00:52:20.940 I cannot wait. 0.98

00:52:21.880 We'll talk sex in the city, I bet. 0.99

00:52:23.700 Oh. 0.97

00:52:25.000 And just like that.

00:52:26.900 And just like that.

00:52:28.600 And you don't get that joke because you don't watch the show.

00:52:31.620 I don't want to be left out of the conversation.

00:52:33.980 And I couldn't help but wonder.

00:52:35.420 I couldn't help but wonder.

00:52:37.880 All right.

00:52:38.360 All right.

00:52:38.820 I'm down to watch it.

00:52:40.100 I'm just a little nervous, but I'm down to watch it.

00:52:43.560 You'd be so bad.

00:52:45.920 Yes.

00:52:46.460 Yes, it will be.

00:52:47.240 It will be.

00:52:47.860 And if you'd like to contact us listeners, you can or email stuffmediamomstuff at iheartmedia.com.

00:52:52.440 You can find us on Instagram at Stuff Mom Never Told You or on Twitter at MomStuffPodcast.

00:52:55.440 Stuff podcast. Thanks, as always, to our super producer, Christina. Thank you, Christina. And

00:52:59.960 thanks to you for listening. Stuff One Ever Told You is a production of iHeartRadio. For more

00:53:03.160 podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

00:53:06.560 your favorite shows.

00:53:25.440 Thank you.

00:53:55.440 if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality

00:54:15.320 welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for anyone

00:54:21.540 who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island

00:54:23.500 deserve the same level of discourse.

00:54:25.620 Each week, we're connecting the dots

00:54:27.000 between books, the internet, and pop culture

00:54:29.100 with your favorite writers, book talk creators,

00:54:31.820 and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:54:33.880 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:54:35.640 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app,

00:54:38.360 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:54:41.740 I survived nine months in captivity,

00:54:44.620 and I've spent my life exploring

00:54:46.880 how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:54:50.420 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:54:53.960 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable,

00:54:57.740 abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:55:01.560 These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:55:05.400 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart

00:55:08.180 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:55:13.520 I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

00:55:17.480 You know, I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy.

00:55:23.220 Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out.

00:55:30.220 You're not hired just to fill time and space.

00:55:33.040 You're hired to fill the space with you.

00:55:36.220 Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:55:44.280 Our hometown is not a test tube.

00:55:46.580 90 miles northeast of Nashville, a battle for the future of America plays out in one small town.

00:55:53.040 Developers with right-wing ties have purchased hundreds of acres of land.

00:55:56.700 We need cities on a shining hill.

00:55:58.900 This is Our Town, a podcast about what happens when a small town becomes the site of a social experiment and fights back. 0.97

00:56:06.940 Guess you didn't move in on a bunch of dumb hillbillies now, did you?

00:56:09.660 Listen to Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0.98

00:56:16.580 I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 3 podcast.

00:56:23.180 This is a story about a horrendous situation that destroyed two families.

00:56:28.220 It's a scorched earth war that shows just how far someone will go to get what they want.

00:56:33.920 Cindy said, I had to choose between the truth and my family, and I had to choose the truth.

00:56:38.580 Listen to Season 3 of Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:56:48.260 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:56:51.120 Guaranteed human.

There Are No Girls on the Internet - March 10, 2026

The Woman Who Designed the Face of the Personal Computer

Episode Stats

Transcript