00:04:10.220You know, why didn't anybody sort of see that earlier?
00:04:13.860And there's been a lot of theories around this.
00:04:16.140But what everybody has missed is actually the real explanation. And it didn't take me very long to find, actually, because not because I'm terribly clever or anything, but because I was thinking in terms of gender, actually.
00:04:32.080And I looked in, started looking in newspaper archives and pretty soon found women rolling suitcases well before 1972. And then the whole story kind of became very clear just with, you know, some additional research, which is that, you know, there were products applying the technology of the wheel to the suitcase well before 1972.
00:04:54.360too. Most of them were niche products for women and as such not taken seriously by the luggage
00:05:00.400industry who thought they were making luggage for businessmen who were all men. And there was this
00:05:07.060idea that it was absolutely ridiculous for any man to ever roll a suitcase because masculinity
00:05:13.720is something that always needs to be proven. And one way that men have to prove that they were men
00:05:19.420were by carrying heavy luggage around. And the other gendered assumption that prevented people1.00
00:05:25.980from saying, you know, the potential of this product was that, yes, women might buy this
00:05:31.040suitcase with wheels, but they're not a big enough market because women don't travel alone anyway.
00:05:37.900And that's actually the main explanation to why we didn't get wheels on suitcases earlier. And0.99
00:05:42.960even when it was invented in the 70s, people, you know, at first, no American department store
00:05:47.800wanted to sell this product because of this reason. No man will ever buy it. You have all of
00:05:54.940these very interesting examples of the ways that sexism and misogyny and all of these assumptions
00:06:00.620about gender and masculinity have really stalled innovation. You talk about, you know, how electric
00:06:07.360cars were, when they were first invented, they were sort of seen as girly because they were safe
00:06:11.900and a little bit slower. You know, how have you seen sexism and misogyny and assumptions about
00:06:17.460masculinity in men, hold back innovation. Yeah, I think it happens all the time. And, you know,
00:06:23.360the electric car example that you mentioned from my book was something that obviously really
00:06:28.120fascinated me because that is, okay, you know, fine, we didn't get wheels on suitcases earlier,
00:06:33.680we can live with this. But this decision that we made collectively, you know, let's build a whole
00:06:40.080world for gasoline driven cars, you know, let's not go with the electric car because electric
00:06:45.080cars were around already at the dawn of the automobile era in the 1800s. And, you know,
00:06:49.980as you say, one of the reasons was, you know, they were marketed to women and then many male
00:06:55.180consumers didn't want it. And many people are not aware of this, that even in that sort of
00:06:59.580massive decision, you know, collectively made, you know, let's go with gasoline or petrol instead of
00:07:06.900instead of electricity for cars, there were gendered assumptions in play. And I just think
00:07:14.660it's it's not intuitive to us you know because i don't i don't think we think of gender bias as
00:07:19.620some we think of gender bias as something a bit sort of soft and maybe not that important at
00:07:25.160least not when it comes to like big hard things like technology and innovation and what i want
00:07:30.280to show with mother invention my book was that they have everything to do with technology and
00:07:35.580innovation and they hold us back and um in very very concrete ways and that's why i try to use
00:07:42.700these very concrete and hopefully enlightening examples from history.
00:07:47.380Yeah, you do that so beautifully. And I think it's one of those things that is for me at once
00:07:52.520kind of hopeful because I'm like, oh, if we can get to a place where these highly gendered
00:07:57.960assumptions, where we're less tethered to them, we will all benefit. But then I'm like,
00:08:02.980but are we actually ever really going to do that? Probably not.
00:08:08.040I'm so happy that you said the book made you hopeful because a lot of people,
00:08:11.760so it's been translated into quite a few languages it was originally written in Swedish I am Swedish
00:08:16.280but it's um and so many people have written to me saying that the book made them really really
00:08:21.780depressed uh which was not my my sort of idea when writing it at all because I wanted to make it into
00:08:27.900this sort of hopeful story of you know look we're we're actually just innovating with at least one
00:08:33.220hand tied behind our backs and look at all the potential we could unleash if we did things
00:08:37.860differently but I think because I do go quite deep into history and I talk about you know how
00:08:43.500the definition of technology has always followed our definition of masculinity and how whenever
00:08:49.120women have created technology we don't see it as technology and I go quite deep in the book and I
00:08:55.120think many people have taken that as oh my gosh these problems they go so far and so deep with
00:09:02.740thousands of years of history the whole way we look at technology and innovation and that has
00:09:07.840made them depressed. And I apologize for that. Bumming out a whole, like, people across the globe.
00:09:15.800Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, I'm quite a cheerful person, I think, personally. So it's just, you
00:09:20.920know, getting all these emails about, oh, you made me so depressed. Yeah, I'll think about that for
00:09:25.960the next book. So it's difficult to not get a little depressed when you look at the numbers
00:09:30.460around venture capital. Who has it to give out and who gets it? Spoiler alert, it's not a lot
00:09:36.720women and even less women of color and Black women.
00:09:40.180Katrine says that this, too, keeps us from having a future where more people are actually0.94
00:09:45.840I do think these things do go very deep, and I think it's necessary to know it.
00:09:52.120I mean, we are losing out on innovations all the time now.
00:09:56.960I mean, I'm sure listeners of this podcast are very aware of things like, you know, the
00:10:01.560venture capital gender gap and just how little venture capital goes to women and how the, you
00:10:10.560know, the absolute majority of their venture capital goes to white women. And I mean, here in0.95
00:10:15.280Britain, it's 0.02% of all venture capital that goes to black British women, for example. I mean,
00:10:22.260that is such a, I mean, the numbers are just so brutal. And, you know, in the book, I go into,
00:10:29.640what I believe are the problems with the venture capital system and why this discrimination keeps
00:10:35.580happening. And again, how that goes to the heart of the whole sort of financial construction of it
00:10:41.060and why therefore that needs to change. But these are very, very big and tricky problems. I guess
00:10:47.400you can't sort of run away from that. Yeah. You know, you talk about how this is connected to
00:10:52.140venture capital and how few women and even fewer women of color and black women get venture capital
00:10:58.000Yet, and then it's male, white male, white male decision makers who are, you know, doling it out.
00:11:05.020And yet you point out that 80 percent of consumer decisions are made by women.
00:11:09.240So I guess, like, what does that mean for innovation and how do we solve that?0.60
00:11:13.660Yeah, I mean, 80 percent of consumer decisions in the global economy are influenced by women.0.93
00:11:18.120So, yeah, which is which is enormous.1.00
00:11:21.580So there is there is a huge market here.
00:11:24.080And as you say, there should be somebody who wants to make money, who wants to tap into that.
00:11:29.240But it's not happening enough. I think the way to to solve it.
00:11:34.300And again, I guess this is my problem as an author is is is to just redo the whole financial system.
00:11:42.400No, I mean, I do think I mean, I do think that a lot can be done within venture capital to sort of address these biases.
00:11:50.080But I do think the way it's set up and the type of ideas and the incentive structures that are built into this system.
00:11:56.780I mean, in the book, I talk about how, you know, it comes from the whaling industry and, you know, it's set up in a way that the ideas that the business ideas that, for example, women have, they do just not fit.
00:12:13.980So I do think we need, and that's why it's such a problem that venture capital has become so dominant, because I think it inherently discriminates against women, which is why we need other types of models. And they are out there, but, you know, they're not at scale yet.
00:12:29.660Yeah, I think it's one of those things where the system is so fundamentally broken and flawed and is not just flawed and broken for people who are marginalized, but also everybody loses out when we lose out on these innovations.
00:12:44.880Like so many things I'm thinking, why hasn't somebody invented this?
00:12:47.900And it's like, oh, well, because it's probably a product that solves an issue for women or people of color.
00:12:53.140And, you know, I think that it's it's we're missing out on opportunities to live in a fundamentally better society because of things like misogyny and assumptions around gender.
00:13:05.360It's just holding us back in these huge ways.
00:13:07.960Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's why I mean, I hope that these historical examples can be inspiring instead of depressing, which is, you know, just just think of that gender bias hadn't existed around electric cars 120 years ago.
00:13:21.300you know, just imagine how different the world could have actually looked. I mean, you can hear
00:13:26.620that story and get depressed that, you know, why did we go in this direction and not that direction?
00:13:31.200But it can also hopefully sort of show you the possibility in this. Yeah, that's the exact thing
00:13:38.060that I found hopeful that I connected with. But it is a bit depressing to think like, oh, do you
00:13:42.800all want to live in a world with like a better climate ecosystem? No, we don't want that. We'll
00:13:48.720take the sexism instead yeah we take the real man needs a noisy car yeah exactly and i mean that is
00:13:54.000also what's and i try to make it funny you know in the book even because you some of these things
00:14:01.000you do have to laugh at and in retrospect it's very easy to do you know you know why can't a man
00:14:06.080roll a suitcase with wheels you know why you know but um um but it is it is interesting how
00:14:13.540we are so invested in this idea of gender and you know that often that it really is more
00:14:21.420important to us to sort of uphold rigid ideas around gender and what it is then even to make
00:14:28.140money right we are willing to lose money um in order to to uphold this this system which i find
00:14:34.160interesting it is wild like oh i i completely agree with you like our our blind allegiance
00:14:42.100to these arcane systems and rigid arcane systems
00:14:46.580that are not serving us, it will never cease to surprise me.
00:14:50.280Yeah, and I think we're all, I mean, in many ways,
00:14:55.980and that's why it's important to look at them.
00:14:58.400And I do think it's well worth one's time
00:15:02.620to connect them to things like technology and innovation
00:15:06.140because I think that is just not done enough.
00:15:09.120And it's the whole way we look at the history of it,
00:15:11.260you know, like historians have pointed out, feminist historians have pointed out, you know,
00:15:15.820we talk about the Stone Age and the Bronze Age and the Iron Age, but they are based on technologies
00:15:24.420invented by men. There were technologies in these eras invented by women, but we don't see them as
00:15:31.460technologies. You know, why don't we talk about the rope age or the string age instead of the0.99
00:15:36.280stone age you know you could argue that string or rope which is you know a technology you know0.98
00:15:41.480they think women invented is actually more important than some kind of weapon made from
00:15:45.900stone because you know you have rope you have string you can tie things together you can make1.00
00:15:50.060fishing nets you can carry things in bundles but you know we don't think of that as technology
00:15:55.680because you know for different reasons and you know the same with cloth or weaving or0.94
00:16:02.640ceramics which are technologies and innovations largely developed by by women throughout throughout0.99
00:16:10.060history but we don't see them as as technology and and this creates this whole history of of
00:16:16.100innovation where it looks like everything important ever was invented by a white man and
00:16:21.980and it looks like that because the definition of technology has always followed our definition of
00:16:28.560of masculinity. I mean, when women were basically inventing software, that wasn't thought of us
00:16:35.240as technology. And that was not that many decades ago. And then when men started doing it, it became,
00:16:40.500you know, terribly important and very technical and paid much more and viewed in a different way.
00:16:45.980And that's what happens all the time. Yeah, that's one of my favorite points that you make
00:16:50.560in the book that we have, you know, the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, but no ceramic age or the
00:16:54.660flax age. And it's just this association with femininity. Like this, you know, our first episode
00:17:00.040of this podcast, we talked to Claire Evans, this amazing technological historian who talks about
00:17:05.780how women were the first computers, like flesh and blood women. And that yet we didn't think of
00:17:12.900it as technical work. We almost thought of it as like secretarial work. And it wasn't until it
00:17:17.040became associated with men through, you know, pushing women out through the same kinds of
00:17:22.760hostile policies that we see today and through like marketing that that's when we started to
00:17:27.960associate women or men with technology and computing yeah i know i mean my my mother was
00:17:34.160a computer programmer i mean she's retired now but i mean she she trained you know she studied
00:17:39.900computer science in the early 1980s in sweden when it was still female dominated so i mean i'm
00:17:45.380i'm not even 40 and i remember from my childhood when you know tech before it was called tech was
00:17:51.220I mean, at least in Sweden in those days, was quite dominated by, you know, these women.
00:17:56.440I mean, my mom's, most of my mother's managers, the way I remember it back then, were women.
00:18:02.740And then obviously I saw how it all changed.
00:18:05.480And, you know, and now this completely sort of different view of it.
00:18:08.720And we kind of erased the history, I think.
00:18:11.680Many people even within the industry don't even know about that.
00:18:15.060Or the first computer programmers being women here in Britain during the war.
00:18:19.480And yeah, it's, it's just, I think it's very depressing, particularly that story.
00:18:25.500And I'm really glad you had, had that on the, on the podcast because it's, it's just, we need to, we need to tell that story because it's actually very, very recent and we've already forgotten about it.
00:19:38.140When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.
00:19:43.380I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed
00:19:49.360them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low taunting
00:19:56.900voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything. Every week I'm with survivors who
00:20:04.520live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me. I
00:20:11.320I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:20:18.680They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:20:22.660But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:20:26.100They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:20:29.740Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app,
00:20:34.380Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:20:37.540If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:20:44.420This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:20:56.600I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:21:03.720I'm going to have to look up this story.
00:21:06.860From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:21:13.260It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:21:21.160Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:21:30.340Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:21:45.040When I saw you speak in D.C., the story that you told about your mother as someone who worked in tech, it really stuck with me.
00:21:52.720You described sort of, you know, these women with big hair and sweaters, like people that you don't associate with being computer programmers or engineers.
00:22:01.460Like, what was that like for you to grow up seeing and how did it shape your own understanding of technology?
00:22:06.380I think when you I mean, I think it made me I mean, you know, you're a child.
00:22:10.640You take everything. You think your universe is the whole universe.
00:22:14.340You take everything for granted. So that was just how it was.
00:22:17.980But I think I think I think maybe it it made me less scared of it than other people.
00:22:23.980It was just quite natural. And also I didn't because my mother was somebody.
00:22:27.600I mean she's you know she used to work at an art gallery and did some sort of administration of
00:22:32.160library catalogs and and then she was also and then she became a computer programmer so
00:22:36.960so for me I think in the way it shaped my understanding of tech was that it was actually
00:22:41.360you know a much broader thing accessible to a broader type of personality than than this you
00:22:49.100know white man in a in a hoodie that was then obviously in the 90s very very influential um
00:22:55.400later on so I guess that shaped me less than than other people and and and I and also I guess it
00:23:01.600ended with me writing this book Mother of Invention I guess I wouldn't have done that
00:23:05.800without my without that experience and and you know and just growing up in the tech industry
00:23:11.760without realizing what it was yeah I love that I mean it's it's kind of like a legacy that your
00:23:18.060mom has set up I mean even the title of the book Mothers of Invention it's I love that yeah I know
00:23:23.500I mean, obviously, I mean, I did do coding and all of that.
00:23:27.320I wasn't that good at it, but it was something that we just did.
00:23:49.700Like a lot of women and girls got involved in programming through things like MySpace or Neopets, these little girly games that you could learn simple code to customize and make your own that we solidly think of as like, oh, just girls playing around.
00:24:04.900But here in 2022, a generation of girls say that those kinds of experiences are what gave them the launchpad to dive into these like harder tech skills.
00:24:15.100And so it's just so fascinating, the things that we feminize and masculinize and how when you break out of those rigid binaries, so much more is possible, a whole world of possibility really opens up.
00:24:27.580Yeah. And you know how computer programming used to be compared with, you know, cooking from a recipe, you know, when it was seen as feminine and not high status.
00:24:35.340You know, are you good at following instructions? Are you good at cooking from a recipe?
00:24:39.440You know, come become a programmer when they were trying to recruit women.0.68
00:24:42.240um and you know and it kind of makes sense it is a bit like cooking from a from a recipe but but
00:24:48.160you know you can see how it was that metaphor was used but just like this you know but it's
00:24:53.980the metaphor you use or the context you put these skills in or how you what you even see as a skill
00:24:59.980is is very gendered and I do go into sort of the economic consequences of that in the book you know
00:25:06.240how historically when men are good at something it's immediately seen as a technical skill
00:25:12.640and when women are good at something you know for different you know for any reason just because
00:25:18.700they're allowed to do it we tend to see it as much more of a natural feminine ability so it's1.00
00:25:24.720not allowed to become like a technical skill so even when women were were in computing it was
00:25:30.400seen like oh that's like an extension of their feminine nature of you know being meticulous and1.00
00:25:35.780following instructions it's not allowed to be seen as a skill and then when the men come in1.00
00:25:40.820it's suddenly oh it's a skill this requires a particular type of brain particular type of
00:25:46.380personality and then the and it's very technical and then the economic logic comes in and of course
00:25:52.800if something is a natural ability you know that's just you know why should we pay you well for it
00:25:57.760well if something is a skill yeah of course we should pay you well um so there's like an economic
00:26:03.720logic on top of that, that ends up having huge consequences on the labor market, because, you
00:26:08.880know, we know that the main reason why women are in less than men is because of the gender segregated
00:26:14.300nature of all labor markets, where you have, you know, men in some professions and women in some
00:26:19.520professions and the female dominated professions always tend to be paid less. And that actually0.85
00:26:25.060has to do with a lot of it, of that structure of the labor market has to do with how we historic,
00:26:30.720what we historically saw as a technical skill and not, and how that connects with gender.
00:26:37.680I'm curious, this is kind of a curveball question. Is that the case in places like Sweden as well?
00:26:43.860As an American, I have this perhaps incorrect idea of like Sweden as this gender utopia where
00:26:50.800everything is great. Is that all? Is it also the case there?0.99
00:26:53.800Yes. I mean, so Sweden is, I mean, certainly we have stuff like paid maternity leave. I mean, most of the world has that apart from the US, but, you know, we have a lot of great things and invest, you know, a lot in affordable childcare and, you know, the gender pay gap is smaller, but it's, you know, it's not gender utopia.
00:27:18.460And, you know, it's one of the most gender segregated labor markets in the world, which also has to do with a very high female, you know, participation.
00:27:26.900But it's very, very gender segregated. And, you know, something like venture capital, I think we're doing worse than the U.S.
00:27:34.280It's sort of one percent, I think, to women. So it's it's I mean, I think Sweden is doing a lot of things right.0.98
00:27:41.400But, you know, I would say it's probably, you know, a better social model in many ways, you know, if you allow me to be nationalist like that, than many others.
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00:28:56.680If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:29:03.120This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,
00:29:09.260pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:29:15.300I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:29:22.420I'm going to have to look up this story.
00:31:04.060It's difficult for me in the United States to not yearn for these alternative models, even while I can say, you know, they're not perfect, but it's difficult for me to not yearn for them, if I'm being honest.
00:31:15.760Yeah, no, and I think you should. And I mean, but I think you should. And I think we should all look at, you know, different systems and different models and different nations, because nobody has has really solved this, this sort of gender equality puzzle. But there are, you know, good things in many different places. And so it's worth looking at best practice, basically.
00:31:36.380Definitely. That's actually a great segue into one of the last questions I have for you, which is, you know, you end your book talking about climate and how we have this, I don't know, and I see it all the time and I don't even really know how to talk about it.
00:31:50.760But we have this idea that the people, the person who is going to help us tackle this mess that we've gotten ourselves into with regard to climate are going to be wizards, right?
00:32:02.600Like some tech wizard is going to swoop in and have a technological answer, whether it's going to Mars, going to space, whatever it is.
00:32:10.840And how do you see that as another way that we're allowing for misogyny and assumptions about gender and masculinity to really perhaps lead us astray?
00:32:20.760Yeah, I mean, I think some people talk about it as this, you know, duel between the wizards, like the tech wizards who, you know, just like you say, let's invent some big technology that fixes everything or let's move to another planet.
00:32:39.120Technology and innovation will sort this mess out.
00:32:42.200And then on the other hand, you have the kind of the prophets who say that technology and innovation is the problem.
00:32:47.820You know, we need to, you know, we need to live simpler.
00:32:50.140we need to change our behavior and that's the only way to save the planet and I think both of
00:32:57.000those both those archetypes the wizard and the prophet are based on kind of this patriarchal
00:33:03.060model of technology being separate from nature right and and I think fundamentally that is
00:33:10.760the problem here it's it's you know because they're not separate and this idea that technology
00:33:18.000is this force that we use to to sort of control nature or extract things from nature where where
00:33:27.140the earth basically becomes this giant container of energy that we can just take and take from is
00:33:32.520very problematic and so i don't think technology and innovation is is the problem because i do
00:33:38.780think it can it can and should have a different relationship to and with nature and contextualize
00:33:44.740itself as as part of that and and i think and this you know one of the i mean the whole book
00:33:50.160is about things that we view as feminine and therefore um look down upon and one of the
00:33:55.900biggest thing is obviously you know nature right mother earth that's the feminine that should be
00:34:00.700kind of um controlled by you know masculine forces of of technology and and i think we need to
00:34:08.720rethink that and we need to really rethink the relationship between nature and technology
00:34:14.200because I think neither the wizard or the prophet is right.
00:34:17.480I think technology and innovation is certainly part of this solution,
00:34:22.180but that type of technology innovation needs to work with nature
00:34:27.780and see itself as part of nature in a completely different way.
00:34:34.280And I do think it has a lot to do with gender
00:34:37.060and how we sort of insist on gendering the world0.67
00:34:40.980in ways that are not very constructive.
00:34:44.200when you look down at the horizon, do you see things getting better or worse? Like,
00:34:48.920are you hopeful for the future when it comes to these things?
00:34:52.100I mean, with the climate change right now, it's, I mean, it is tricky to be, to be,
00:34:56.820I mean, you know, I'm in Europe, it's, you know, there's a big war in the Ukraine and it's,
00:35:01.980you know, it's led to, you know, Germany firing up all this coal, not all this coal plant,
00:35:06.600but burning, burning a lot of coal. And, you know, you can see, you know, lots of investments
00:35:11.700going into fossil fuel because of, you know, energy security issues that have arisen, you know,
00:35:16.740around the war. And, you know, certainly, you know, President Biden in the US is, you know,
00:35:24.700going to Saudi Arabia and telling them to drill more and, you know, backtracking on the green
00:35:28.940agenda partly. And, you know, and that's, you know, that's sort of been in the last couple of
00:35:34.420months. Certainly, it's hard to be hopeful when it comes to climate change. But I do think like
00:35:39.160the bigger trend is, you know, is in renewables and it is in doing things differently. And but I
00:35:45.460do think, you know, it's, yeah, there's a big shift that needs to happen. A lot of it has to
00:35:52.560do with financial markets and what gets financed. And it's, it's a very, very, very thorny and
00:35:59.480difficult problems. I mean, we have to be hopeful because there is there is no alternative.
00:36:05.200Yeah, that's exactly how I feel that like, it feels like we're up against so much. But the only choice we have is to be hopeful and to move forward. Like, what other option is there?
00:36:15.320No, I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean, the option is going to Mars, but I don't think that's very pleasant. And so I don't think that should be an option. We should, you know, we should stay here and we should, you know, do things differently. And I think in order to do that, just to sort of tie back to where we started the conversation, I do really think that, you know, innovation really, really, really desperately needs to become much more inclusive than it is because we need all the good ideas that we can we can get.