00:04:07.600So I wanted to have you on today to talk about the social media ban for children that just took effect in Australia.
00:04:14.360We have kids. This does not impact them yet because they're still really little.
00:04:19.120But it's definitely something that I think all parents should be aware of.
00:04:23.200And I think it's something we should be watching very closely, because it's the first country to put a social media ban like this into effect. And I think it is flawed in a lot of ways. But I also think it's really important. And it's a really big deal. And I don't think anyone is talking about this nearly enough.
00:04:45.420Yeah, well, my first big question, and I guess this is for you as well as the world, is what does this even really mean?
00:04:54.120And more importantly, how is this kind of thing going to be enforced?
00:04:56.400Because it seems like the kind of thing that's immediately going to have blowback and kids will fake their age and some parents won't bother enforcing it and blah, blah, blah.
00:06:09.920What we know is that this measure, which was passed a year ago, requires the technology companies behind the various platforms, Facebook, Instagram, something called Kik, Reddit, Snapchat, Threads, TikTok, Twitch, X, and YouTube, all defined as social media companies.
00:06:30.720It's unclear whether or not new companies can be introduced or what actually defines a social media company.
00:06:39.640But these are the ones that are included right now.
00:06:42.320They have to identify and disable the accounts of Australian users who are under 16.
00:06:54.560You're not allowed to be on the platform if you are under 16.
00:06:59.400And under the law, the failure to take, quote, reasonable steps to remove underage users could lead to fines of up to $49.5 million Australian dollars, which is about $33 million, which, as we know, is actually nothing to these tech companies.
00:07:15.000I mean, this is just absolutely no money to them whatsoever.
00:07:18.720It's like buying a dollar scratch-off ticket.
00:07:38.600This is about everything that we truly do know about social media and the impact that it has on kids' brains.
00:07:45.520And again, I think that's why this matters. The fact that the Australian government has had these conversations and has had these conversations in earnest about the toxic impact that these platforms can have on kids.
00:07:59.340I think it shows that there is a problem here. And it also makes a lot of parents kind of wake up and say, oh, wow, you know, maybe maybe we should reconsider this as well.
00:08:10.380It's because of the psychological impact that it has on kids, but also because there have been studies that say that kids who use social media get less sleep.
00:08:27.820There are just so many impacts on children that I think cannot be ignored.
00:08:36.140So, yes, I think that this all makes sense.
00:08:40.380So you said a lot of specific examples there. Presumably, there's enough evidence to have led the Australian government to do this. It all sounds good to me, but what's the best thing to do? I mean, do we sit back and wait a few years and watch what happens in Australia? And hopefully we have evidence that suggests, well, gee, we should do this here? Or is it time to take further action?
00:09:05.040Well, I think it's absolutely time to take action in the United States. And I think it's time to take action because the technology platforms won't do this themselves. So just even having these conversations, just even having these potential fines, which like we said, is a drop in the bucket for tech companies, but having them exist will push the companies to at least be a little bit better.
00:09:29.280And these companies, the goal is capitalism. It's capitalism to the end. And unless they're being pushed by anyone, by any kind of regulatory body, they are not going to do anything or at least not nearly enough to protect vulnerable people online.
00:09:46.200And all of us are vulnerable on social media. We are. We should all be off of it more than we're on it. But I do want to go through a recent study in the Journal of Pediatrics, was just released this week on Monday, that found that children who had a smartphone by age 12 were at higher risk of depression, obesity, and insufficient sleep than those who did not have one.
00:10:09.420children the younger that children under 12 were when they got their first smartphones
00:10:15.400the study found and this was all published in the times i think yesterday the greater their risk of
00:10:20.680obesity and poor sleep they also focused on a subset of children who hadn't received a phone
00:10:25.480by age 12 and found that a year later those who had acquired one had more harmful mental health
00:10:31.420symptoms and worse sleep than those who hadn't well i would argue that there's it sounds like
00:10:36.900there's even bigger problems than, you know, a risk of obesity and some lost sleep.
00:17:03.660And so if we think about it like something
00:17:06.060that is addicting, that is bad for your health,
00:17:09.160it's just a healthier way for us as a society
00:17:13.300to view this and to control it a little bit better. I think for parents to pay a little
00:17:18.940bit more attention for kids to realize this isn't all fun and games. Someone is looking out for me
00:17:25.040here. Someone is saying, hey, maybe just take a beat. Take a beat before you go on this. This
00:17:30.280isn't necessarily healthy for you. And that's why I think this law truly matters. It's very easy to
00:17:35.140poo-poo it, to say it's not enough, it's flawed, the kids are mad about it. But at the same time,
00:17:41.660we do need regulations for things that are dangerous because human beings simply cannot
00:17:46.080control themselves yeah exactly i mean there are you know libertarian perspectives on that which
00:17:53.440have their own problems but um yeah i mean that's the conversation that needs to be had and i think
00:17:59.160that we're doing the right thing in doing it i suppose we have a bit of a luxury to sort of sit
00:18:03.480back and see what happens in australia and does it act is it actually effective um or not um what
00:18:10.340What is happening here? I mean, is there any legislation that's been discussed in any real way, particularly given the current administration?
00:18:18.680All of the legislation that is happening in the U.S. is happening at the state level right now.
00:18:23.720And a lot of that has to do with children performing in these videos.
00:18:28.140Do children have to be paid? There is some discussion of banning cell phones in schools, of social media bans.
00:18:36.500But we don't have anything at all at this level, and also any restrictions that have been put into place in the U.S. are also incredibly difficult to enforce.
00:18:48.360The problem here, truly, is that at the end of the day, so much of this is going to fall on the parents.
00:18:55.280So much of this is going to fall on parents to say, no, I'm sorry, you can't have a cell phone.
00:18:59.600No, I'm sorry, you can't have social media. And that will be hard because social media in some ways does allow kids to connect. It allows for some social connection and a sense of belonging, things which are very good for mental health.
00:19:15.080I truly believe that it's actually better just to be in real life, just to be in person with humans more.
00:19:22.260I think we are truly losing a lot of real social connection by how absorbed we are in screens.
00:19:28.960But I will also say that I have made incredible connections with people online and then gotten to know them in real life, people that I never would have met otherwise.
00:19:38.460I certainly used to feel that way about the Internet in general back when it was a burgeoning utopia.
00:19:45.280But I have an idea. Bear with me here.
00:19:47.660First of all, you know, getting smartphones out of schools, which a lot of schools have already done.
00:19:53.360And I'm not even sure. Do we get any idea what the statistics are?
00:19:56.480I mean, you know, how many schools allow you to walk around with a phone?
00:20:01.580The majority of schools still allow phones in them.
00:20:05.660Actually, smartphone bans are pretty rare in schools, and this is actually often an incidence of helicopter parents who say, my kids have to have a phone.
00:20:34.920That seems logical to me. I think that most people would say that's easy to enforce. It's logical for lots of reasons. And it seems like a good place to start.
00:20:45.440It's a great place to start. And this is also something that we're seeing on the state level. A growing number of U.S. states have enacted laws or policies banning or at least restricting cell phone use in schools.
00:20:59.840At least 32 states and D.C. currently require districts to implement some form of restriction. That form of restriction can vary, very widely.
00:21:09.680I will tell you that these restrictions are very, very, very supported by teachers and
00:26:00.740And right now, and there's two parts of this.
00:26:03.500There's the social media part of it. And then there's the news media part of it, which with misinformation and the fragmentation of media and media outlets, that may even be the bigger part of this going forward. Where are you getting information? Where are you getting good information? Who owns these companies and who's profiting off of you when you're giving your attention to these companies?
00:26:27.320I think the ownership aspect is more important than ever.
00:26:31.100We've always had billionaires owning media.
00:26:33.980We've always had billionaires putting their stamp on media.
00:26:37.100But I think that's getting even more intense.
00:26:39.900And it's important to know who these people are.
00:27:55.100Newsmax is in Curbed, is in Autopsy now.
00:27:59.000And it yells, and obviously Newsmax has paid to be there because it's essentially, you know, it's fake news to use the term du jour.
00:28:10.340But yeah, I mean, speaking of that, and that's barking at people every time they get into a cab now in New York and Philly and everywhere.
00:28:16.640Yeah, no, I had absolutely no idea. Because again, there's also no cohesive media reporting anymore, to be honest. And I'm saying this as a person who lived in the world of media reporting for a very long time when it was first, you know, popping up on the internet. You worked at Gawker in the early days. I was frequently a subject of Gawker in the early days.
00:28:40.480there's not nearly enough reporting on this and or if there is it's really hard to break out of
00:28:47.840all of the other salacious rage bait that is out there uh but that is that is fascinating great so
00:28:53.820now we have newsmax yelling at people in the back of taxis it's funny because i think for a long time
00:28:57.460we thought there couldn't be anything worse than fox news and we were just so naive it's amazing
00:29:01.300it's amazing it is amazing so i mean one of my goals in the new year i want to keep covering
00:29:07.220this Australia ban. I want to have some of these young people on. And I don't want to call them
00:29:13.280kids either, because I don't think that's fair. A 16-year-old is still a child, is still legally
00:29:19.340a child, but calling them kids is just so pejorative and so condescending. And I think
00:29:24.340that they do have a right to have a voice and to talk about how social media and learning to use
00:29:29.340social media is really important for them going forward, because it's important, sadly, in the
00:29:35.860world. So I am hoping to have some of these young people on to hear their point of view. And we're
00:29:41.700going to be covering this a lot more in the new year, because I think it's an important story
00:29:45.860for us to focus on. We have to keep talking about all of this, because social media has,
00:29:50.980it's just media now. And it has such a huge impact on us and on our children. And if we don't pay
00:29:56.080attention, and if we don't set our own limits on it, it's just very easy to let it define us and
00:30:04.520to let it really harm us. Yeah, totally. I agree. And you know what I think we would discover in
00:30:11.680that process is that I think that there are a lot of 16-year-olds who are surprisingly articulate
00:30:16.540and mature about this, you know, who would be strong evidence to defy the necessity of the
00:30:23.860kinds of bans that we're talking about. However, it's a bit of a self-selecting group, and I'm not
00:30:28.720sure the majority of 16-year-olds would be on that level. But again, you know, we're getting
00:30:33.400into that complex gray area of, you know, does a blanket ban work at all?
00:30:39.540Or does a blanket ban just send the right message, right?
00:31:00.780And she was so smart and so fascinating.
00:31:03.600I'm going to drop that into the feed on Sunday because I think it's a good reminder and I think it's a good starting point for this conversation.
00:31:13.460I know we can sit we'll sit back and watch what happens in Australia, but it doesn't mean we can't continue to think about what's happening everywhere.
00:31:21.720So there's a group here in the U.S. that I like a lot, that I follow, that I want to get a lot more involved with.
00:31:26.920But, you know, I have zero time right now.
00:31:30.560It's called Mama. It's Mothers Against Media Addiction. We've had their founder here on the podcast. And I'll drop her episode back in the feed as well as we're coming up against the holidays and we're resurfacing some older content.
00:31:44.300But it's just it's an organization led by a mother who is also a journalist who is just determined to educate parents, get smartphones out of school and ensure that technology products just have basic safeguards like other consumer products.
00:31:59.940right? It's just like, okay, can we make sure that this isn't harmful? Could someone be talking
00:32:03.860about this? And they're a really good group to follow. They're doing a lot of the legal stuff
00:32:09.660here in the US and a lot of the thought leadership. So I'm going to drop a link to them
00:32:13.840in the show notes here. Awesome. Awesome. All right. Signing off. See you later, Nick Astor.