Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Bonus： Third Wheel with Jenny Mollen

00:00:00.000 put your seatbelt on seatbelt on

00:00:05.800 should we turn the air conditioning off yeah hey glennis hey joe tell everyone where we are right

00:00:12.380 now we're in uh the village of burr oak iowa home for a brief period of time to er influencer

00:00:19.740 laura angles wilder laura angles wilder one of the first influencers we've been on the road

00:00:24.940 reporting about Laura for the new Wilder podcast for about four days now, recording 12 hours of

00:00:31.140 tape a day, meeting people who love Laura Ingalls Wilder and learning so much about the impact and

00:00:39.220 influence she has had on everything. Dresses, prairie dresses, nap dresses, little houses,

00:00:46.980 farmhouse design. Everything Chip and Joanna Gaines have ever done is based on Laura Ingalls

00:00:52.900 wild artisanal cooking so much and pantry design it's not even three o'clock and i've eaten fried

00:00:59.080 cheese in five different ways i'm gonna say four days 17 cheese curd varieties later yeah my

00:01:07.320 biggest takeaway from this trip is how it i can't stand being nearly 20 weeks pregnant in a car for

00:01:15.900 two hours and i don't know how ma did it in a covered wagon for six months i'm happy we're in

00:01:23.440 the museum side of the experience and not in the creating the thing that became the museum but um

00:01:28.460 yeah so we've been busy we've been crazy busy reporting out wilder it's gonna come to your ears

00:01:35.120 sometime next year but we haven't been so busy that i wasn't able to record a fun episode of

00:01:42.660 Jenny Mullen's podcast, Third Wheel, with her yesterday from the car, literally from the front

00:01:48.160 seat of this car. And we're going to drop that into our feeds today. I'm really excited about

00:01:52.820 it. Remind me who Jenny Mullen is. Jenny is an actress and an author. For the past decade,

00:01:59.520 she's been writing these hilarious essays about motherhood and marriage. She happens to be married

00:02:05.200 to the actor Jason Biggs. I interviewed her seven years ago for my book, How to Be Married.

00:02:11.520 which you were uh researching the last time we were on a cross-country road trip

00:02:16.480 true story true story and we've kept in touch since then and yesterday we got to talk for a

00:02:25.500 little over an hour about her new book which is a novel about a mom influencer and jenny's real

00:02:32.880 big on instagram like and she is just beloved on the gram but this is the story of an unemployed

00:02:39.680 copy editor who stumbles into the world of a crazy famous crazy social media famous mom 0.97

00:02:46.480 influencer and then shit gets real dark sounds like it could have been an episode of under the 0.98

00:02:51.920 influence kind of feel like jenny and i have been living in each other's heads unwittingly 0.93

00:02:55.540 for the past couple of years and we talk about that this is a whole hour of jenny interviewing

00:03:00.640 me and me interviewing jenny on her podcast third wheel we're dropping it in the feed it is a fun

00:03:07.100 listen. And now I'm going to go probably eat some more freaking cheese. 0.65

00:03:22.280 Hi, guys. Welcome to Third Wheel with Jenny Mullen. Today, we are going to get into a topic 1.00

00:03:28.420 that I don't know. I don't want to say that's near and dear to my heart because it's actually

00:03:33.700 something that I've had to confront and deal with based on my need to perform and

00:03:43.420 seek out validation from strangers who sell books. And I'm talking about social media

00:03:51.960 and my relationship with social media and mom influencing. So today I decided that I needed

00:04:00.000 to have on somebody who was an expert in the field, somebody who is doing it herself on her

00:04:04.900 own podcast under the influence. Her name is Jo Piazza. She's a friend of mine. I've known her for

00:04:12.080 many years, but we've never actually met in person, which is, I mean, just perfect because 0.64

00:04:17.360 I guess the whole crux of monfluencing is that it is based on all of these parasocial

00:04:23.580 relationships we're forming with strangers. So Joe is another parasocial relationship that I have

00:04:30.720 in my life that, you know, I feel like we keep up with each other. We keep up with the Kardashians

00:04:36.380 of each other's lives, but we haven't actually met in person. We are, however, on the exact same

00:04:42.560 wavelength when it comes to momfluencing, when it comes to social media, marriage, so many other

00:04:50.960 topics so i would like to welcome joe joe hi hi how are you i'm good i'm in a car on the side of

00:05:00.320 the road in pepin wisconsin so it looks fucking amazing and i am 18 weeks pregnant and i have to

00:05:05.640 pee so bad and i'm like can i just go behind this doctor on the side of the road yes that's what i 0.74

00:05:10.800 used to do i would just get out of the car and pee wherever jason was horrified oh yeah no yeah my 0.99

00:05:16.220 husband's completely horrified but i'm like really really then you have this fucking baby they don't 0.99

00:05:20.900 understand they don't know they're never gonna know and this third baby is all happening because 0.99

00:05:25.800 my husband refused to get a vasectomy are you serious yeah i just wanted he was like oh it

00:05:31.020 won't happen you're so old one egg left in there one egg was left in there smoking a marlboro

00:05:37.200 wait so did he not pull out like because that's like jason and i our only method of birth control

00:05:43.180 has always been just pulling out no yeah how has that worked for you it has randomly let's see 0.96

00:05:50.040 once i did get pregnant i guess but yeah yeah shit oh my god but are you kind of excited 0.92

00:05:58.380 i'm totally excited i think i secretly wanted a third baby i think it's gonna be like i see 0.98

00:06:03.280 babies right now i'm 43 and i want to grab them i want to just like take them and eat them i know 0.56

00:06:09.660 you want to eat them you just want to like lick their feet and i uh yeah no i think i'm secretly 0.54

00:06:13.520 excited i'm having this baby when i'm 42 so i didn't i really i didn't think it was possible 0.62

00:06:18.580 No, it's awesome. I don't think it's that old anymore. I mean, by New York standards, you're very young. I know that the world considers you a geriatric pregnancy.

00:06:28.380 They do, which is amazing because they don't consider Elon Musk a geriatric father and he just keeps hooping out children with his employees.

00:06:35.780 Isn't it bizarre? It's like a factory.

00:06:38.800 It's a factory over there. I used to think that Kevin Fetterman had the most super sperm in the whole world and now I think it's Elon Musk.

00:06:47.080 because his was probably like made in a lab i think he's his like goes into like a petri dish

00:06:52.780 first injected with all sorts of supplements and then inserted into people who work there

00:06:58.720 insert it yeah inserts it into random women yeah they might not even know to be honest

00:07:03.880 until it comes out and they're like all right at least he's rich right at least i'm set for life

00:07:09.620 and i can have a tesla to drive my my babies around in well i'm so excited to have you here

00:07:17.560 this is i am too insane that we haven't connected i just read the first four chapters of your book

00:07:24.920 and i was like holy shit how did i not know that your book was about mom influencers because it is

00:07:33.320 so similar to everything that we've been imagining i've been also writing a pilot in my head about 0.71

00:07:39.920 mom influencers and i'm like oh yes this this is the world i've been living in for the past three

00:07:46.020 years yeah well i i look i look i'm looking at all of your seven books do you have more than seven

00:07:51.500 is it eight now i think i think it's 10 now 10 because i ghost i ghost wrote two i ghost wrote

00:07:57.280 two for the younger so if you count you're a machine how do you have the time i don't know

00:08:02.500 i write i think i write half of them in my sleep or i wrote them while i was breastfeeding a baby

00:08:07.440 i dictated them on my phone and just banged them out but you've got like five now right no i have

00:08:12.680 four and one took me four years you have like celebrity inc which how famous people make money

00:08:16.960 i have to read that that i wish i would have read that before i wrote my novel fitness junkie i

00:08:23.020 haven't read the knockoff i'm dead like that also is such a i i really need to read that and then

00:08:29.700 i think i i make an appearance in how to be married don't i i interviewed you and he blurbed

00:08:34.080 and i blurbed i just random i randomly like cold called you i think and i was like blurb this book

00:08:38.680 about marriage because i think you're so funny um and you blurred it but you were but we are like

00:08:43.440 on the same wavelength same page something i i'm not sure what's going on between us but we have a

00:08:48.600 weird connection because everything i'm thinking you're thinking so i need to know you have this

00:08:54.620 wildly successful podcast right now called under the influence and when i found out about that

00:08:59.840 because i'm sitting here writing the pilot of the book city of lakes i was like i really want to

00:09:05.920 understand you know just everything that's out there about you know how people how journalists

00:09:12.260 are sort of breaking down and looking at influencing so i'm curious i want you to like

00:09:17.520 give me your take on all of this this crazy world that we're living in well i love that you said

00:09:23.080 breaking down because i think that i had a breakdown when i wrote this when i wrote the

00:09:29.940 pilot for this podcast really i had just given birth to my second baby she didn't sleep all

00:09:36.020 night long i just had her on the boob she didn't really breastfeed either she just wanted to be on

00:09:40.520 boob yeah and the only appendage i had free was my thumb so i'm scrolling instagram with this with 0.99

00:09:47.660 this angry child on me and that was the first time I really discovered mom influencers I knew

00:09:54.440 influencers existed I've worked with influencers before on projects but the mom influencers it was 0.96

00:10:01.960 this whole world of clean white houses and you know beautiful women and barefoot children and

00:10:08.980 they were all trying to fucking sell me something and I decided I'm like I have to report on this 0.89

00:10:14.440 I have to do a podcast about this. 0.98

00:10:16.540 And I called iHeart.

00:10:17.520 And they're like, didn't you just have a baby?

00:10:20.280 Aren't you still bleeding?

00:10:21.560 And I'm like, don't worry, I've got this.

00:10:23.100 I'm going to start recording it right now.

00:10:24.300 And they're like, okay, fine, Joe, whatever. 1.00

00:10:26.960 She's crazy.

00:10:28.520 And it started out that I wanted to just kind of pull back the curtain on this perfect world. 0.83

00:10:33.480 I'm like, they're clearly taking pictures of their beautiful houses and then behind the scenes, like beating their children and feeding them Cheetos.

00:10:41.920 Like that has to be what's happening.

00:10:44.440 And in some cases, you know, not the beating of the children part, but yeah, no one's this perfect.

00:10:49.240 It is so much fakery and you're hiring a photographer to take a month's worth of pictures in a single day.

00:10:57.480 And the rest of the time you are feeding your kid Cheetos and they're watching Paw Patrol because that's how we're all getting anything done. 1.00

00:11:04.400 i also developed an intense respect for a lot of these women because what other jobs are currently 1.00

00:11:14.200 open to women where you can raise your children and do all of the shit that we have to do as a 1.00

00:11:19.280 wife and still make some money journalism jobs certainly don't exist anymore that's why i make 1.00

00:11:25.500 podcasts and write books and the journalism jobs that do exist magazines give you complete shit 1.00

00:11:31.640 maternity leave so even though you know they're made off the backs of women they're not offering 0.94

00:11:38.200 you amazing leave or amazing benefits and certainly not paying for your daycare so i feel like this is 0.99

00:11:45.040 a whole generation of women they're like fuck it we're just going to capitalize on instagram 0.99

00:11:50.380 and make money this way because no one else is supporting us but then i mean it just it also 0.99

00:11:56.740 gets so dark and I love I have not gotten to the part where your book gets a lot darker but I'm

00:12:02.860 but I'm here for all of it because I think that there's a lot of weird shit happening behind the

00:12:08.360 scenes that no one talks about in the world of mom and you know and I talk about in the book and

00:12:14.060 also just like in general when I'm I don't know getting on this subject the fact that Instagram

00:12:20.820 gave me a platform you know i can't like social media launched my career it gave me agency it

00:12:28.540 gave me financial independence it gave me sort of a voice outside of being jason biggs's wife

00:12:34.000 so you know there are instagram made you i think instagram may have made you even more famous than

00:12:38.860 your husband i gotta say it jason are you listening jason's never listened to one of my

00:12:43.300 podcasts but i may just play this on repeat for him while he sleeps but no so it's it is like a

00:12:49.820 It has been an amazing tool for women, I will say, but it is also, I think, a truly just insidious, horrible thing as well because it's made us all such a keeping up with the Joneses, desperate for external validation, craving constantly just likes and approval from others in a way that I don't even know.

00:13:19.080 that you know part of me i wondered at one point were moms such a big thing like before 2010 was

00:13:26.120 anybody thinking about moms in this way and and you know at first i was like well no or maybe i

00:13:32.060 wasn't because i didn't have kids but i don't think that's true i think that the mom influencer

00:13:36.760 and like being a mom became this like almost like cool sub-genre identity once instagram start go

00:13:45.140 started going you know twitter you could be funny but you until we could see the visual component

00:13:50.040 you couldn't really monetize you couldn't really capitalize on like the platform you had so i do

00:13:57.340 think that this idea of like the mommy and in and it is so like i mean it really is grossly

00:14:03.660 you know exclusive and and it it all is about like you know if you buy these sunglasses if

00:14:10.860 you buy these Celine sunglasses, you too will have clean countertops and kids that don't cry.

00:14:15.200 You will be the perfect mother. Your kid will no longer shit on the floor. 0.99

00:14:19.360 Yeah, you will be succeeding. You won't be failing at motherhood. Your Sunday scaries 1.00

00:14:23.240 will turn into Margarita Mondays and you're going to be killing it at life. So it's just

00:14:27.840 based on all of these sort of false promises that really, I mean, it's cringy. It gets kind

00:14:32.860 of cringy. It's not kind of cringy. It's the most cringy. And you're so right. I think the

00:14:40.100 commodification of motherhood has been happening since the beginning of women's magazines and

00:14:46.040 portrayals of women on television. But Instagram has commodified motherhood in a completely new

00:14:54.040 way. I've had mom influencers and just moms who follow Instagram, who have had complete nervous

00:15:01.940 breakdowns, who sit in their therapist's office and say, I feel like I'm not enough. I'm failing

00:15:07.540 every day nothing has done more to make moms feel like shit and feel guilty than instagram and it's 0.99

00:15:14.460 perpetuated by other moms but also by the instagram algorithm that demands perfection 0.98

00:15:21.700 and beauty and really rewards you for having more and more children it makes you i mean that's you

00:15:29.720 yeah you stay relevant you have to have another baby to stay in the game to keep the brands paying 0.97

00:15:35.400 you that's what's really fucked and it loves a pregnant belly so much that i've posted fake 0.95

00:15:41.580 before my surprise third baby i've posted fake pregnant belly pictures and it gets more likes 0.98

00:15:47.820 than anything else that i've ever done oh my god that's fascinating yeah i'm like oh should i post

00:15:54.840 a fake belly just to see what happens with the pic with a picture of the book because and i posted

00:16:01.300 it with i posted one with a picture of my new book and it worked and it worked and it got so

00:16:07.140 much attention that it got more attention than my book being like the good morning america book club

00:16:12.580 pick it was just huge no it was it was huge but that is not as big as a naked pregnant belly

00:16:19.660 on the instagram according to the algorithm to get all of the lights and i think you know just

00:16:25.860 getting like this external validation a lot of these mom influencers are like it broke me i lost

00:16:31.240 30 pounds i developed a new eating disorder i completely had a nervous breakdown just because

00:16:37.980 i wanted people to like me more and more on instagram then so that i could get paid more

00:16:42.620 and more on instagram and that's the shitty part about it because you want moms to get paid i want 0.97

00:16:46.800 all the moms to make all of the money yeah but the way that they have to do it by portraying 0.98

00:16:53.200 fake ass perfection is so insidious and so gross and you said like keeping up with the joneses 1.00

00:17:00.300 And I think about it like keeping up with the Natalies and the Harpers, all of whom are the Mormon Instagram moms who, of course, are going to be better looking than I am because they didn't smoke a pack of Marlboros every day in their 20s or drink until last call. 0.99

00:17:20.220 So, of course, they're beautiful. 0.95

00:17:22.560 I look like this because I had so much fun in my 20s and I don't regret that. 1.00

00:17:27.700 But I'm never going to look like a Mormon mom. 1.00

00:17:31.220 The Mormon moms are fascinating to me, and they really do kill it, especially with like the affiliate programs. 0.99

00:17:36.980 It is also, though, again, there's even more exclusion there because it's really white motherhood. 1.00

00:17:44.600 It's like white American Christian motherhood. 0.61

00:17:48.800 I mean, that is a whole nother ballgame of like you're not in our club if you aren't all of these things. 0.74

00:17:55.160 If you don't look this way, if your kids aren't wearing matching pajamas, if you're not, you know, barefoot on the farm, able to access, you know, nature in that I'm living in like a New York City apartment.

00:18:08.820 It's just it is like it's really raised chickens there. 1.00

00:18:12.040 I don't have my own fucking eggs. 0.99

00:18:14.900 I know those beautiful blue eggs that you only see on Mormon mom's Instagram. 1.00

00:18:19.520 Yes.

00:18:20.220 And how and also, you know, it is so funny.

00:18:22.600 It's like the way they can photograph these meals.

00:18:26.660 I just look with the dictator lunches stuff that I do.

00:18:29.300 I'm like, I don't have light guys.

00:18:30.740 This is the best you're getting from me. 0.75

00:18:32.840 And, and, you know, these women with these, I don't, it's, it's a lot. 0.99

00:18:38.600 It's just a lot. 0.94

00:18:39.920 But I have to give you kudos because I will tell you that dictator lunches, my kid, my

00:18:44.940 four and a half year old, he does not eat anything that is not beige.

00:18:48.320 It is all chicken fingers.

00:18:49.900 it is all bread like that hawaiian buns that really should oh yeah my son loves those squishy

00:18:55.860 bread is what he calls it i want the squishy bread yeah and dictated lenses made me feel so

00:19:01.880 much better it did oh my god good so i didn't it didn't shame you because some people tell me that

00:19:07.220 i'm shaming them oh my god no it gave me such external validation from just like oh of course 0.84

00:19:12.780 like other kids other kids don't don't eat shit either and also it made me feel better like it 0.98

00:19:18.920 gave me things to to put to try to put in the lunches and it was okay if they don't eat them 0.96

00:19:23.820 because i like i've been so afraid now to go out of the box it was like all right just put in the

00:19:29.320 things you like put in the things you like so i'm like no i'm gonna try this i'm gonna do this and

00:19:32.580 and then see what happens see how it comes back and it was very it was a turning point for me

00:19:37.700 you gave me so much validation oh my god because like sometimes i feel i feel guilt like you know 0.96

00:19:43.280 I talk about, you know, how these moms are making other moms feel like shit. 0.58

00:19:48.420 But then I've had many people say to me, dictator lunches makes me feel like I'm feeling as a mom because I don't I just throw a cheese stick in their box and and call it a day. 0.98

00:19:59.680 And I keep kind of trying to say I'm left handed, guys.

00:20:03.180 I was dyslexic, anorexic, a theater major. 0.98

00:20:05.780 I should I'm not a professional fucking chef. 0.98

00:20:08.200 I just like am psychotic about I'm not gonna I don't the thing that I don't understand and I 0.97

00:20:14.520 watch it all the time and yes there's a socio-economic component to children and

00:20:19.160 nutrition and it's disgusting that America only gives $1.40 per meal per day for school lunches

00:20:25.680 for kids but I'm not even focused on that I'm focusing on these moms I see watch walking out 0.96

00:20:30.340 of like their fancy townhouses with their kid eating a lunchable it's like they just take the

00:20:34.440 path of least resistance because you don't want the fight and I am sort of saying to those people 0.99

00:20:40.120 like if you're so busy getting them Chinese fucking classes having them learn Mandarin having 0.95

00:20:45.920 them do the violin and you're investing in everything else in their lives they're going 0.98

00:20:51.400 to these you know fancy private schools that are so woke teaching about indigenous people's day 0.99

00:20:55.900 and fuck Christopher Columbus but they learn nothing about nutrition like you just throw 0.54

00:21:00.300 nuggets at them and you're done that's why i just feel like there's it's why is it not linked why 0.99

00:21:05.600 do we care about enriching somebody's mind but not like their bodies their little bodies and 0.99

00:21:11.640 i think it's i mean i it's fucked it's totally fucked and like for so long i was just like i 1.00

00:21:17.440 can't have the fight i can't have the fight yep eat your nuggets eat your dino nuggets you little 1.00

00:21:20.980 son of a bitch yep and no you inspired me to try i love that he ate something the other day 1.00

00:21:28.640 well i tricked him because we were in hudson which is the most pretentious little town outside 1.00

00:21:34.200 of new york and we were i went to him to a vegan ice cream shop which is an oxy complete you know 0.96

00:21:40.620 call yourself an ice cream shop goddamn vegan store but i tricked him into eating strawberry

00:21:46.920 beat vegan ice cream and felt so proud and i don't think i would have done it except for 0.96

00:21:51.960 dictator lunches oh my god i love you no i just you're doing god's work i i don't know man i'm

00:21:58.020 just like I feel like they get so stubborn so then I double down and I'm like you know I think

00:22:03.080 that lunch is a fun place to have the battle because at night you're there right so the

00:22:07.180 dynamic changes but when you're not around what can they do like I love them I love nothing more

00:22:12.560 than when they refuse to eat an oatmeal or something breakfast I've made right that I want

00:22:17.220 that I'm salivating over they don't want it and then they go to school I'm like bye because I know

00:22:22.820 they're going to be hungry and then I know they're forced to eat the lunch which is the biggest win

00:22:27.420 for me but i almost don't care what comes back because i do think that it's more about right now

00:22:32.300 doesn't even matter what they're eating it's the modeling and it's just like the redundance of

00:22:36.620 seeing it over and over again it becomes not weird there's nothing weird about it no i'm

00:22:42.740 gonna force you to do this yeah i'm gonna war on blueberries in my house you wouldn't believe it

00:22:47.560 i'm gonna jedi mind trick you into doing this which is really what parenting is it's just

00:22:53.380 tricking them until they have no choices left it's tricking it's constant tricking but i like 0.98

00:22:59.880 dictator lunches because i think that there's so much bakery and bullshit on mom instagram 0.98

00:23:06.940 it's like look at the beautiful birthday party that i pulled off with the color with the rainbow 0.96

00:23:13.640 gift bags and like there's just no truth to it it is and i think your instagram for a long time 0.98

00:23:21.820 has been like a lot of honesty like this is what it's like to be a woman in the goddamn world and 0.97

00:23:27.360 it's hard and being a mother is sucking hard and being a wife is weird and strange and hard 0.96

00:23:33.720 and there's not like so much of what we see on social media is just smoke and mirrors and 0.86

00:23:40.280 bullshit and i don't think people really want that i want like i like i sometimes want to look

00:23:46.480 at beautiful houses when i'm trying to figure out like how to you know redesign my kitchen right 0.95

00:23:51.520 or i i like looking at outfits i do i like scrolling instagram but i want to see real

00:23:57.740 women going through real shit and i think you've put that up and that's why instagram liked you so 0.99

00:24:01.740 much but what do you think about i i also think that there are a lot of women who almost the 0.99

00:24:06.540 oversharing became too so much they leaned into that as well and then it was almost a different

00:24:11.840 movement of like watch me have my breakdown and that also which i also don't like i don't like

00:24:18.100 bothers me there's something always that will be like performance no matter what about instagram 0.97

00:24:23.560 because you're holding a fucking phone in your hand like it's not truly a slice of life for 0.94

00:24:28.340 anybody no no and i think there is there was then this movement towards the oversharing that then 0.99

00:24:35.240 wasn't real and i've seen videos of certain influencers and mom influencers and they're

00:24:42.440 crying they're like sobbing on their beige carpet in their perfectly clean bedroom sobbing um about

00:24:51.920 their their anxiety and their depression and their breakdowns but their mascara is not running

00:24:56.460 it's amazing come on it's so it's like it's perfection it's like planned it's like it's

00:25:04.540 almost like your iphone with planned obsolescence like yes you're planning your anxiety attack

00:25:09.160 you're planning you know this revelation about about your mental health because you also know

00:25:14.420 that you're gonna get likes for that it's a it's the bait it's the fake baby bump it's the fake

00:25:20.580 baby bump it's the fake baby bump of mental health and like i like it's so funny because 0.98

00:25:25.700 even talking about any of this i know that someone's gonna shit on me later and say 0.93

00:25:29.620 make a comment and be like you're shaming people and i'm like oh my thing no i think people who 0.99

00:25:35.200 listen to like my shit at least are like we fucking hate them too somebody say something 0.98

00:25:41.880 yeah yeah because i think and also there is there are constant pleas for sympathy 0.99

00:25:47.240 on instagram that i can't handle it's like yeah it's all too much it's all it's all too much

00:25:54.620 mindfuckery and i say all the time too i'm like i would get off of it if instagram didn't sell my

00:25:58.940 books man like that's the problem right so we need it yeah i sell more i sell more books through

00:26:05.740 social media and writing books is what i really like to do then i do through a great you know

00:26:12.320 story about my book in vogue or or good morning america which was amazing but if i have an

00:26:18.640 influencer post a book that sells like just as many copies these days so this is fascinating

00:26:24.620 so you think that the influencers can sell more books than the tv i don't really i mean i'm coming

00:26:31.300 off i'm just coming off of almost done with this book tour i don't really know what sold what but

00:26:36.420 you think that actually having i mean and by the way the me having these influencers do it was 0.99

00:26:42.100 literally me like holding a knife to them being like you i fucking have sold your shit for the 0.99

00:26:46.660 last four years if you don't post my book you're dead to me yes yes it's like it's begging it's 1.00

00:26:53.440 threatening none of this none of this is organic and beautiful no it is it is no it is it is it is

00:27:01.280 me like you know behind the scenes like dancing like a monkey um begging people and and you know 0.85

00:27:08.900 being like god damn you all i'll never post any i'll never repost anything ever again yeah i mean 0.97

00:27:15.320 it's all pathetic i hate myself i hate myself after a book tour by the way like after i just 0.99

00:27:20.180 feel like i have you're a whore like you're literally whoring out thank you that's how i 0.99

00:27:26.400 feel i'm a whore i'm a total whore um and another book to my editor i just finished another book like 0.99

00:27:32.340 i just like why why don't i just do so why don't i become a plumber i feel like plumbers make really 0.95

00:27:36.620 good money i think books and i don't know if you feel this way but for me it's like a book is the

00:27:41.560 ultimate you know so many people are like oh your your book is going to be a tv show and i'm just

00:27:47.640 Like, I come from, like, TV and film.

00:27:50.060 Like, for me, that's not the win.

00:27:52.100 I mean, who cares about that?

00:27:53.520 Like, I get it.

00:27:55.240 But that never, I mean, the odds of, like, a show actually getting on the air, people don't understand how many different tiers and hoops you have to jump through.

00:28:03.880 They're like, you know, it's like, no, guys, love the win that it was on deadline and be done with it.

00:28:08.900 The only win for me is, like.

00:28:10.560 I love, love it when you get the story on deadline that it's an option and it's going to be made.

00:28:16.180 people love that but i'm like it's never getting yeah people call you they're like congrats who's

00:28:20.280 playing who it's like guys it's so far from that but the book is so concrete we had julia robert

00:28:28.080 signed on to do my last book right and it means nothing nothing no i know no no that it all just

00:28:35.560 yeah just completely blew up by the end of it that was never going to be a tv show people don't get

00:28:39.940 that no no it's the book it's the book yeah so you have to love having the book yes

00:28:45.560 you have to love having the book but oh so in terms of what sells books is it influencers is

00:28:50.640 it tv i think that they're just they're like symbiotic they're like you know the little

00:28:56.900 fish that feeds the big fish um and you have to have both and you have to have them perfectly

00:29:00.820 timed and you have to make sure that your novel doesn't come out the same week as leanne moriarty

00:29:06.120 and amortels which my last one did i'm like i had ellen hildebrand this time you're yeah you're

00:29:11.720 you're just like intense yeah you can't no because everyone who everyone who would buy

00:29:16.740 your book is definitely definitely buying ellen hill the brand's book they want the nantucket

00:29:21.900 hotel which i'm like why don't i know how that ends i know how it ends i'm still probably gonna

00:29:28.580 read it um but the fun thing is i don't know how your book ends i'm very excited i don't have my

00:29:35.020 heart because i got on a flight right after i got off and stopped talking to you um dms the other

00:29:40.480 day and you sent me but my husband's bringing it to me on thursday you're gonna love it because

00:29:45.420 it's gonna speak to everything that you it already does it is i think no i mean like everything that

00:29:52.020 you're saying in the first four chapters i'm like yep this is how i feel about motherhood

00:29:55.020 yes but when you get into the like instagram influencer shit i think it's it's very rewarding

00:30:01.800 for people like us who have had to sort of watch it unfold and also have like almost unwillingly 0.57

00:30:07.380 or maybe willingly, but taken part in it, I think it will really, it's satisfying.

00:30:13.340 I'm planning on ignoring my kids all day Friday in Rocky Mountain National Park.

00:30:17.160 And I'm going to post a lot of pictures on Instagram of me ignoring my children while

00:30:21.020 they like, you know, climb a mountain without me.

00:30:24.900 What is your, I mean, you are a journalist, you've, you've delved deeper into this subject

00:30:29.400 than I ever will.

00:30:30.860 What do you think?

00:30:32.600 Where do we go from here?

00:30:33.820 i think we all have to be instagram famous if we want to produce other really great and hilarious 0.76

00:30:40.760 content and shit like even tv shows really at this point i mean that's insane and so i think

00:30:47.260 other content it's so sad and i don't think we have a choice i think we have to keep producing 0.90

00:30:52.940 social media and being you know peppy and you know instagrammy social media famous if we want to

00:30:59.220 get eyeballs on the stuff that we really love right it's like that is no i just i'm starting 0.93

00:31:06.800 to do the reels and i hate them and i think they're so dumb and i also i know that i fail

00:31:11.800 at tiktok and i know that tiktok is what's actually selling books right now apparently 0.63

00:31:16.440 really like you know tick oh tiktok famous authors have like five books on the bestseller

00:31:21.920 what yeah colleen hoover man colleen hoover oh my god if you can be famous on tiktok or if

00:31:29.740 if book talk likes your books that is what does really well right now wow so and i don't know i

00:31:39.080 am bad at tiktok i'm bad at videos i don't like like i can take a still photo not like a pretty

00:31:45.560 one but a still photo and write a funny caption but like on videos you're gonna see all three of

00:31:50.560 my chins and i don't know where to put the camera and i also don't want you don't put your kids on

00:31:57.320 social media anymore after reporting under the influence we have one episode called the sharent 0.97

00:32:01.600 hood that talks about like all the fucked up things that crazy people can do with your kids 0.87

00:32:07.280 pictures when they steal them from instagram which happens constantly and i won't so i wiped 0.91

00:32:12.940 my my feed of like 90 of my kids faces and every time i like think even think about posting a

00:32:20.040 picture i just imagine a pedophile me too i mean from day one i was like i can never show them

00:32:25.320 i know and i know that i know that i actually know that i get less engagement because i don't

00:32:31.680 post my kids and on the rare occasion where they end up on it it gets so many more likes because

00:32:36.820 people want to see pictures of you know adorable children and my kids look nothing like me they

00:32:41.180 look like my very much handsomer husband so they're they're real fucking cute but yeah um i

00:32:46.880 can't like do the full mom influencer package because i can't post my kids that's how i've

00:32:51.060 always been i can't do it i will not do it it's a line i won't cross no i think it's so scary and i

00:32:57.220 talk about it on here a lot it's just it scares the shit out of me but then my kids have a weird

00:33:02.500 thing at my play at the playground where like some woman listened to the podcast and also followed

00:33:07.960 me on instagram and recognized my kids before i had taken them mostly off the instagram that's

00:33:13.180 That happens so much in New York, too. My nannies will come home and be like, I saw so-and-so's kids today at the park. And, you know, we didn't go over and talk to them. And I'm thinking, if you recognize them, what's to say that some psychopath doesn't see them as well?

00:33:27.920 yeah some creepy psychopath exactly and i also never post pictures of my nanny who i love who's

00:33:34.480 been with us for three she lives with us she's like the greatest human being on the planet and

00:33:40.040 helped me raise my children and i almost feel guilty sometimes so i'm like i want to share the 0.88

00:33:43.960 fact that i like have another woman supporting me so i could do all of the shit that i do like i do

00:33:49.020 not do it on my own like i can't stand that we don't like post the village that lets us do this

00:33:55.660 more often but i don't want people to recognize her so i've never and never that's great i actually

00:34:00.600 should probably stop as well i i've always posted the people that are working for me but at the

00:34:06.700 same time i'm like i want to give her kudos and show that i'm not doing it i'm like she is like

00:34:11.300 helping me do all of this i could not do this without her she's an amazing amazing woman it's

00:34:15.240 so true yeah because we never ever see a nanny in mom influencer posts what i don't see a nanny

00:34:21.040 in anyone's post besides mine i literally feel like i'm the only person posting my doorman 0.94

00:34:25.200 my nanny my fucking like everything i don't know where are these people in everyone else's feeds 0.94

00:34:32.520 right is there something wrong and i'm just like these are my only friends all these are my only 0.99

00:34:39.400 real friends these are these are the people that i'm paying and i love them i pay them to like me

00:34:46.360 guys they're my only friends to like me and pay them to be my friends but no i think that we like

00:34:51.160 no one else shows any of the support people that are in their lives and that's it's completely

00:34:57.580 ridiculous bullshit in the first season of under the influence i was like totally like a shtick 0.74

00:35:03.900 that i tried to um become a mom influencer and then like totally fail at it i think i read about 0.98

00:35:10.920 this where you hired the photographer yeah we hired this photographer to like take mom influencing

00:35:15.800 photos in like the hannah anderson matching pajamas and of course my four-year-old son 0.70

00:35:20.360 was just like no fucking way i'm not wearing it i'll put on whatever i want i'm not doing this 0.72

00:35:25.320 and it was like within 45 minutes everyone in my family including my husband was in tears and 1.00

00:35:30.240 they're like i hate this peace out my husband's like you you do your ridiculous shit on your own 0.99

00:35:35.560 i don't want to be a part of it so it is i mean it's hard and it's all none of it's real it's all 0.99

00:35:41.560 staged. And I think once you know that, and that's why we talk about it so much in Under the

00:35:46.200 Influence. Once you know that you can enjoy Instagram again. But what about the kids? What

00:35:50.300 do you feel this is doing to kids? Because I think it's fucking them up. It's totally fucking them 0.96

00:35:54.780 up. It's completely fucking them up. And like, if I could keep my kids away from social media forever 1.00

00:35:59.840 and ever, I would do it. The fact that like they have their entire life, so many kids have their

00:36:05.620 entire lives documented in a feed on the internet is so completely disturbing and that they will

00:36:12.040 constantly be thinking about what they look like in these pictures and how people like they will

00:36:19.060 have that constant perception of people's like other how other people see them which we all did

00:36:24.300 growing up i mean i felt like a complete loser all the time but i just thought that like the

00:36:28.820 cooler girls were looking at me or you know the boys in school but i never thought that complete

00:36:34.980 strangers would be looking at you and judging me the few kids that we've talked to of influencers 0.99

00:36:40.620 who are of age oh my god tell me what do they say oh they're totally fucked up they're they're 0.98

00:36:46.900 my fear it's my fear um they're just like i feel like i was used yeah that's they are being used 0.99

00:36:53.260 their parents have literally yes and like nobody why it is like child you've exploited yes you've

00:37:00.840 exploited your children for your own your own agenda and robbed them of their own sort of story 0.99

00:37:07.420 it is fucked it's completely fucked and they like none of them have good relationships with their 1.00

00:37:15.360 parents down the road um they don't have good relationships with themselves oh my god oh and 1.00

00:37:21.900 scary yeah no it's really scary and i think but also such common sense right like look at child

00:37:28.020 actors i'm married to one trust me oh you are you are trust me yeah but how early did jason start

00:37:37.120 like was he was he a kid kid he was like on broadway at like seven years old yeah 0.61

00:37:42.320 oh god do you think that fucked up his sense of self yeah fully

00:37:47.100 of course okay i mean he didn't have a stage mom he didn't have like a parent that pushed him in 0.92

00:37:54.100 that way he's which i do think helps which i think is like the saving fucking grace um but 0.98

00:38:00.460 it's still so fucked up i i get i get weirded out when now people my kids are starting to 0.96

00:38:06.380 understand fame to a certain degree and they'll see like somebody from mexico city come up to 0.98

00:38:11.220 jason and be like la la la i love your whatever you know just like going off and my one son turned

00:38:18.120 to me and he's like mom will i have fans one day and i died inside i died a thousand deaths because

00:38:22.900 i was just like this is so sickening i don't know how to protect them from this i don't know what

00:38:28.360 to say i had a dad that was like very well known in our community and it made me it just like you

00:38:35.880 know not that i didn't already have feelings of inadequacy but it really did exacerbate them by

00:38:40.920 feeling like i was always eclipsed by my you know famous dad and then i married a guy that eclipsed

00:38:47.040 me too but so that's another story i just keep going but but you are way more famous in social

00:38:52.480 media than jason i'm just gonna he's like he's like why don't i get brand deals i was like you

00:38:57.220 post like once a year yeah you post yourself part parallel parking your car once a year that could

00:39:04.340 be why brands aren't interested in brands brands aren't into that brands who's gonna who's gonna

00:39:08.500 sponsor you yeah yeah no no they want nothing to do with that i mean but i want out joe i want out

00:39:15.620 of it i don't like it anymore i want out i just don't know how to get out and still sell books

00:39:20.300 and you're kind of telling me i can't no you can't you can't that's i mean that's and that's

00:39:24.960 the shitty truth of it we and i but i do we under the influence in the second season we started

00:39:30.760 calling for a women's day off all of the social media which people do all the time and it fails 1.00

00:39:34.980 but mostly to just like show how much power women actually have on these platforms and 0.99

00:39:42.040 And also how much it's fucking up our life. 1.00

00:39:44.280 If we can just turn it off for one day,

00:39:46.100 then maybe we can just walk away from it.

00:39:49.280 But you can't get off.

00:39:50.200 If you want to be a person who makes things in the world

00:39:52.260 and gets an audience to devour,

00:39:56.340 to enjoy and consume the things that you actually love making,

00:39:59.420 you have to be on social media right now.

00:40:00.680 There's no way around it. 0.99

00:40:02.140 It sucks. 1.00

00:40:03.800 Completely sucks. 1.00

00:40:04.740 I know. 0.99

00:40:05.040 This has been depressing, Jo.

00:40:06.540 This has been really depressing.

00:40:08.640 I'm sorry.

00:40:09.660 Sorry that I'm depressing.

00:40:10.740 i mean i'm like a harbinger of doom wow because it's and i think it's only going to get worse

00:40:17.980 i do and before it gets better because how like there's just so many forms of media right now

00:40:24.140 how does anyone discover anything how does anyone find anything except through

00:40:28.200 a kind of weird parasocial fandom that exists yes and the parasocial relationships

00:40:34.600 that's a whole nother thing but I mean I did find that being a new mom it made isolation so much

00:40:44.480 easier because I could just have these relationships that I could dip into with some stranger that was

00:40:51.440 teaching me how to make hummus and then you know I didn't have to give anything back I could go run

00:40:57.100 and do my chores I could you know be whatever it was I didn't have to make plans or meet them

00:41:03.580 somewhere or worry about when their birthday was sort of sort of freeing, but also prevented me

00:41:10.140 from really forging real relationships in the real world. Oh, yeah. No, we have this whole

00:41:15.900 episode of Under the Influence about parasocial relationships and how we talked to women who

00:41:22.400 told me they I mean, you didn't have to leave your house in COVID, but how they literally didn't

00:41:27.780 talk to any of their real friends in during COVID because they could just follow these influencers

00:41:32.420 and how they genuinely thought a lot of these women were their friends and they were taking

00:41:37.480 strange advice from them they were taking mental health advice they were taking nutrition advice 0.96

00:41:42.740 yeah and i met one woman who took these crazy ass supplements that an influencer was recommending 0.84

00:41:50.140 for her and she got so sick but she was like but i felt like this woman was my friend and i should 0.94

00:41:56.000 follow her advice i should do what she was telling me and it's fucked up and people have always had 0.57

00:42:02.860 parasocial relationships the term was actually coined um when television started because people 0.84

00:42:09.640 had these really kind of strange unhealthy relationships with tv stars but tv stars

00:42:14.360 weren't on a device that's in your pocket no no and johnny carson wasn't asking your opinion on

00:42:20.020 things no and he wasn't you know you couldn't pull him out when you were just sitting in the

00:42:24.980 bathroom and have him have him have him tell you tell you things so you weren't watching him pick

00:42:30.620 a chins it in his bathroom either you were not watching him pick a chins it in his bathroom but

00:42:34.700 i think that johnny carson would have been even more famous if i could watch him pick a chins it

00:42:38.240 oh yeah he would have crushed in today's johnny carson would have crushed 0.98

00:42:42.720 but yeah it's so like that's another part of the un there's so many unhealthy parts of the social

00:42:50.040 media all of which we've been trying to talk about and people respond to it i mean i i don't 0.96

00:42:56.520 even look for interviews anymore people email me they're like let me tell you about this crazy ass

00:43:00.740 thing that happened or let me tell you about this mom influencer in my town who like staged a fake 1.00

00:43:05.760 kidnapping of her kids just to get more what instagram which was a real thing she this woman 1.00

00:43:12.320 outside petaluma in california pretended that her kids were about to be kidnapped in a michael's 1.00

00:43:19.420 parking lot of all places michael's the craft store and because she wanted so many it hits on

00:43:26.660 so many levels so many levels um and you know i've talked to influencers who say some of their

00:43:35.160 influencer friends they're like should i try a suicide attempt do you think i would do you think

00:43:39.680 do you think my my engagement would go up if i tried to kill myself and these these stories are

00:43:44.380 real and they're true i can't wait for you to read the book i can't wait you're gonna love it

00:43:48.960 i know i can't so much of that it's i i really that's i mean and that's what i think about all

00:43:54.360 the time because the my podcast is non-fiction it's reporting i'm like if you could fictionalize

00:43:58.940 this and take it to the nth degree yep like what could you possibly do with this so just and

00:44:04.360 thankfully you did it you did it so now now i don't have to do it now i can just enjoy someone

00:44:08.380 else doing it which makes me so happy you know you can just like write on the tv show and just

00:44:12.300 like kick back oh my gosh you know what that's i would rather do that than like option or do any 0.87

00:44:19.140 of my own shit because you know what i'm gonna need you i'm gonna need you i'm coming i'm there 0.98

00:44:24.680 i mean but that is so i talk about that in the book there's this character and she's so pissed 0.99

00:44:29.220 because you know one of the the other influencers has announced that she's dealing with whatever it 0.98

00:44:34.980 is some sort of abbreviated issue and she's like you know she gets everything she had the dui the

00:44:41.680 UTI the block you know what I mean she's just like pissed because it's like that girl get has

00:44:47.040 all the issues and there's always the poster child of you know whatever it is but that's really like 0.87

00:44:53.180 how fucked up it is where we're not if we don't even care what that person's issue is we're envious 0.79

00:44:57.540 because they now have a new following a new following a new it's a new episode right so 0.98

00:45:03.640 I wrote Celebrity Inc after I was a gossip columnist um about how famous people make money

00:45:10.000 right as the Kardashians were starting to happen.

00:45:12.860 It hadn't happened yet.

00:45:13.620 This was more than a decade ago.

00:45:15.300 And I say at the end of my chapter

00:45:17.120 about reality television,

00:45:18.420 you can only keep going if you create another crisis.

00:45:22.800 So I said, I'm like, 0.94

00:45:24.360 Kim's going to have to marry someone crazier than she is 1.00

00:45:27.100 and start making babies. 1.00

00:45:28.600 Look what happened. 0.99

00:45:29.660 It's like, I'm fucking so good. 0.99

00:45:31.080 You're a prophet. 0.98

00:45:33.420 I'm really a modern day prophet here.

00:45:35.700 Truly.

00:45:37.160 But it's even more so with the social media.

00:45:40.000 star you have to have another baby you have to have another crisis you have to keep your audience 0.57

00:45:45.580 engaged yes and i keep thinking did you follow the mormon mom sex scandal no the soft swinging 0.99

00:45:53.320 sex scandal no oh god all right i'm really happy that i'm going to be able to leave you with this 0.95

00:45:58.880 this is what i want this is what people want to think about this is how we need to um yes yes so

00:46:05.460 there's these you know the mormon mom influencers and one of the mom influencers does a reel or a

00:46:12.100 tiktok or one of the videos saying she's getting divorced because her and her husband have been

00:46:17.560 in a soft swinging circle soft swinging is apparently everything what is soft swinging

00:46:22.940 you can just get fingered but not everything but yeah you can get fingered it's everything 0.87

00:46:27.340 everything but um penetration yeah in who even needs penetration right like at the end of the 0.97

00:46:32.820 day i'm like okay you've basically done it all if you're not you've basically done it all you've

00:46:37.720 done it yeah but they call it the soft swinging hilarious and yes and she's like but i've been

00:46:43.700 soft swinging with other mom influencers and their husbands and now my marriage is falling apart

00:46:50.260 and she didn't name anyone but of course you know the internet's like who who is in this who's in

00:46:54.820 the soft swinging circle and other mom influencers come out and like it was not me i was not soft 0.98

00:46:59.840 swinging you know and then everyone really is like what the fuck is soft swinging like god 0.96

00:47:03.980 do it already soft swinging so now she's completely shifted and is posting these 1.00

00:47:12.480 videos of her like you know getting hot and going out with other divorced mormon moms and

00:47:18.180 divorced single mormon moms and like getting her groove on so she's had a switch right she switched 0.99

00:47:25.620 from like the mom influencer to now like the hot single mom influencer because she had to give her

00:47:30.860 audience a season change essentially oh my god it's been wild because when i've been going to

00:47:37.140 these different cities they've been pairing me up sometimes with influencers from you know whatever

00:47:42.700 city it is and it is fascinating the the scene is can be so different you know once you leave new

00:47:49.240 york oh yeah yeah yeah because the mormon you've like you've got the mormon mom influencers who

00:47:54.240 were like real hot and they like put their hotness on display with their hair extensions

00:47:57.980 and like the and the you know chased boob boob boob cleavages and um then you go to san francisco

00:48:07.160 which is where i was in really first inspired to do this podcast and you've got the long flowing

00:48:11.540 dresses and the straw hats and the boho mom the boho mom the boho mom like walking around scribe

00:48:19.260 winery in sonoma yes and those were the women that i first met because i lived in san francisco

00:48:25.080 which i hated it's a terrible place to live but i lived there when i had my first baby and i was 0.75

00:48:29.560 surrounded by those boho mom influencers and in real life and feeling like a failure in real life 0.99

00:48:35.140 oh my god and this mom comes over to my house we had a fire pit in the backyard she comes over one 0.56

00:48:39.900 night one of these mom influencers who i thought was just like perfect because her social media is 1.00

00:48:44.180 so perfect and she didn't speak to anyone the whole night and she then she didn't drink anything

00:48:49.580 she didn't eat any of the sausage that i had on the grill so i'm very skeptical of her already

00:48:53.240 yes didn't speak to anyone and then she posts a beautiful picture of her own mason jar mug that

00:48:58.900 she brought and her own striped paper straw holding it out in front of the fire pit talking

00:49:03.840 about her beautiful night meeting so many new friends at trail piazza's fire pit party and i'm

00:49:09.280 like you sat in the corner like a recluse and brought your own mason jar mug you freak and 0.75

00:49:16.000 that was insane i know where is she now divorced oh my god i think she's divorced and maybe she's

00:49:26.100 a divorced mom influencer now i don't i don't know i mean but she was so unhappy in real life

00:49:31.700 and i was and these women don't connect like you know a drunk new mom how do we connect i was i had

00:49:37.940 no friends in san francisco and i was introduced to a mom influencer and those were like that was

00:49:43.280 my social circle that was all i knew because no one wanted to be friends with me because i didn't

00:49:47.120 work for facebook how did they interact with you were they interested at all in what you were doing

00:49:52.320 or was are they all just narcissists no they were all just narcissists but they they weren't

00:49:56.320 interested in each other either that's the thing like we would go places and they were only taking

00:50:01.540 pictures of themselves or their food and there was no talking to each other happening it was just

00:50:07.780 constant, like, you know, the other women were there as props and then I would be cut out of

00:50:13.380 the pictures. Wow. I didn't live up to the mom influencer ideal. Because they couldn't tag you 0.74

00:50:19.340 and get more followers. No, no, because I'm just a lowly author. Like I had like, I had like 5,000

00:50:25.160 followers at that point. I was very uninteresting. They're like boring. You've only written 10 books.

00:50:31.680 Yeah. I'm like, oh, I write, I write books. And they're like, yeah, I write a blog too. And I'm

00:50:35.640 No, like they get published, you know, by publishing houses and they're like on bookshelves, million, million views.

00:50:42.840 And I'm like, you win. That's it. All right. You win.

00:50:45.540 Oh, my God. And would you think they're going to take over the world? I mean, or what you do?

00:50:52.680 Yes, I do. I do. And I think that they're going to take over the attention economy.

00:50:57.760 honestly really i think that more people we see it we see less eyes on books less eyes on tv shows

00:51:06.460 obviously less eyes on magazines because there's only so many things we can consume in a day

00:51:11.280 and so many people are consuming instagram oh my god but instagram there's gonna have to be a new

00:51:17.640 another app that happens well tiktok now you've got the tiktok and there'll be something that

00:51:22.660 comes afterwards but social media i think is going to completely take over the attention economy

00:51:27.300 for what i was gonna say for better or worse but for worse it just it is and that's that's really

00:51:32.980 i mean what the whole crux of under the influence was about yeah yeah wow it's crazy and and it

00:51:40.640 makes me it makes me want to run off to the woods and turn off all my social accounts and never do

00:51:45.920 anything ever again and maybe i'll try that experiment until my next book comes out in

00:51:50.600 summer 23 and i'm like all right i'm back what is your next book tell us before you leave us tell

00:51:57.760 us your next book so i i just my last novel we are not like them was really it's a beautiful book and

00:52:05.180 it's really serious and i was like all i want to do is write a sicilian murder mystery filled with

00:52:12.140 sex and wine and people going missing and i banged it out oh my god finished it it's called

00:52:22.080 the sicilian inheritance i don't know if it's any good or if it has to be because it's got all the

00:52:26.980 sex and wine in sicily wait obsessed how do you pivot like this how do you pivot as a writer from

00:52:33.760 like something so serious to now so serious so serious and so like we were having such important

00:52:40.220 conversations about race and social justice and like you know doing these tv interviews and i'm

00:52:45.420 like you know secretly i just need i need a breather i need a break and i'm gonna write some

00:52:50.480 smut you write some real smut and um so did you go there did you live this life i've been with

00:52:57.100 sicily like 10 times already um when i was a travel journalist my family's from there

00:53:01.360 i know i haven't lived this life because i've been raising two young children and then getting 0.84

00:53:04.580 surprise fucking pregnant again i can't even drink anymore and i think it was like my fantasy

00:53:09.980 life during covid and just you know threw it down on paper and now now i'm writing that and now you've 0.98

00:53:17.340 actually freed me from the bonds of having to write a tv show of under the influence because

00:53:22.060 you're going to make the tv show and you'll make it even better and now i don't have to worry about

00:53:25.660 you're going to come work with me if it ever becomes anything if it ever becomes anything

00:53:31.180 that's how it works uh right i can't wait wait uh cecilia the cecilian inheritance it comes out

00:53:37.660 summer 2023 i'm your height actually actually that one doesn't come i have another book with

00:53:42.520 my other co-author that's coming out 23 this one's not even sold yet i haven't even sold it yet

00:53:46.680 i just had to i had to say it out loud joe how do you write with somebody else i don't know how

00:53:51.460 i like a book i could do anything else but i cannot do a book i don't know how to do a book

00:53:56.400 with another person you could the thing is you could it's just like writing a tv pilot with

00:54:00.220 another person i mean you have to do a really christine and i and christine used to be my

00:54:04.820 editor which helped she edited my novel oh that would be great to win okay so she knew me she was

00:54:09.640 in my head already she knew how i worked and you do a google doc and you have a really robust

00:54:14.600 outline you don't stray from it you go back and forth and at the end of the day it's actually

00:54:19.660 nicer because during the book tour and the publicity part which i don't actually love

00:54:25.240 you have someone with you and you're like oh great if i can just like get through this event

00:54:29.920 and like you know we i have someone to get margaritas with or when something goes bad and

00:54:34.400 someone writes the nastiest amazon review of your book um or you get a very lukewarm new york times

00:54:39.160 review you have someone to like hold your hand and drink with you and that's really nice i do love

00:54:44.660 that idea yeah it's better i love writing but i like to collaborate i don't like to be alone

00:54:49.340 so i like to write together i like to write and but i you know you can't really write sicilian

00:54:54.080 smut with someone else because you just feel guilty and ashamed all the time so that one i

00:54:58.560 had to write on my own and how polished is it before you're submitting this to editors these

00:55:03.840 are now just questions not even for I don't even know if my listeners are want to know this but I

00:55:08.940 need to know like how polished is a draft like this before you submit it this so I when I write

00:55:15.640 alone when I write with Christine we have like really really big outlines when I write alone I

00:55:20.400 sit down and fly by the seat of my pants every morning um and write a thousand words and so now

00:55:25.640 I'm editing it right now while I'm out on the road working on another podcast and it will be

00:55:30.660 this book will be in fairly good shape I'll have like three or four people read it for me

00:55:37.280 before I give it to my editor in September I'm giving it to my agent in two weeks whoa

00:55:43.100 oh my god this is a lot to take in there are so many questions offline I'm gonna ask you

00:55:48.020 somebody I'm here for I'm here for all of them I'm so excited to reconnect when I realized that

00:55:51.760 you were doing that podcast i thought to myself how the fuck did i write this book with never 0.56

00:55:55.920 speaking to joe about this subject i know and i can't believe that like our brains were on the 0.61

00:56:01.220 same wavelength i'm looking at the books you've been writing for the past like six years and i'm

00:56:05.680 like she's me we're i'm in your head i know and we haven't talked in six years since how to be

00:56:10.840 married came out we haven't spoken and yet we've been like fully tethered to each other somehow

00:56:15.200 i know it's been amazing it's been amazing well i want to see you i could talk to you for hours

00:56:20.580 and hours if i didn't have to go behind this dumpster and pee no go oh my god you haven't

00:56:24.440 even peed i was hoping you would pee during this interview to be honest i thought that that would 0.60

00:56:28.180 have been great for my i thought i was gonna have to i thought it was gonna happen but no it didn't

00:56:31.920 it would have made great audio i think i'm going viral for that i think i'm gonna have to when i

00:56:36.300 post about this claim that you did pee during the interview cool i'm fine with that all right great

00:56:40.800 um i love you thank you for doing this i i can't wait to talk more fun will you send me your cell

00:56:47.580 phone so that I can just you know haunt you every day amazing thank you thanks for coming

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - July 14, 2022

Bonus： Third Wheel with Jenny Mollen

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