Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Divorcing Heterosexuality (and Other Data-Driven Decisions)

00:00:00.000 Hey y'all, Joey here, and you are listening to Under the Influence.

00:00:11.700 Every time an article about gender roles and marriage goes viral, my inbox explodes.

00:00:17.020 And this brings me a lot of joy, because I want to hear everything from everyone.

00:00:22.040 But I gotta tell you, one particular article really set my phone on fire.

00:00:26.180 A few weeks ago, at least two dozen women, married women, single women, straight women,

00:00:32.440 queer women, they all sent me the same cut headline. This economist crunched the numbers

00:00:37.680 and stopped dating men. I mean, I want to hear everything.

00:00:45.880 The woman behind it is the economist Corinne Lowe. She's a professor at Wharton who studies women's

00:00:51.980 careers, family trade-offs, and the brutal math of modern marriage. She also lives like right down 0.99

00:00:58.780 the street from me, so I'm gonna try to bring her into my friend group. In her new book, Having It

00:01:05.040 All, which is out now and is so fantastic, she takes everything she's learned from her research,

00:01:10.680 from her students, and from her own subsequent marriage and divorce and lays things out very

00:01:16.880 plainly. The data does not lie. The way that we have structured heterosexual relationships

00:01:22.760 does not work for most women. So Corinne's on the show today, and we are going to talk about

00:01:28.360 what it actually means to divorce heterosexuality, how caregiving becomes an unpaid second job

00:01:34.820 almost all of the time, and why the tradweight fantasy is such a lie. But, but, but, we're not

00:01:40.740 going to be massive bummers. We are also talking about how to fix it, how to level up, how to find

00:01:45.680 joy again, and how to build a partnership that doesn't kill your soul. 0.99

00:01:57.740 Okay, I have to tell you that I had probably 25 women send me the article about you in the cut.

00:02:08.320 25 happily married two men women uh who and and the headline of this article is this economist

00:02:16.980 crunched the numbers and stopped dating men and she's never been happier just tell me tell me

00:02:24.840 everything okay just just just give me the whole shebang yeah well i'm an economist who studied

00:02:31.960 women's career family trade-offs and so i thought that i was you know gonna be able to like avoid

00:02:37.200 this in my own life. And then I married a man and I had a child. And I say in the book, I gave birth 0.71

00:02:43.140 to my son and also a midlife crisis because all of those things that were in my data were suddenly

00:02:48.860 in my life. Like me falling behind at work because my male colleagues had more time because they had

00:02:54.580 spouses who were doing more. Being the primary breadwinner, but also somehow being the primary

00:03:00.320 parent and like doing the cooking and like the mail and like the recycling. Um, so I got to a

00:03:09.140 point of being very deeply resentful. I was very burned out. I was also commuting two and a half

00:03:13.680 hours from New York to my job in Philadelphia because I, I teach at Wharton. I'm an economist

00:03:18.000 at Wharton. Um, and it reached a point where, you know, divorce was the right decision. And

00:03:23.880 as I was planning to get divorced, it was like I was divorcing heterosexuality because it wasn't

00:03:33.280 that my husband was a particularly bad guy. We're good co-parents together now. It was that these

00:03:40.060 gender roles were killing my soul. And so I also, at the time when I got separated, I was like 36

00:03:49.180 turning 37. And, um, also like on the heterosexual dating market, you're kind of like already,

00:03:57.000 you know, like I had seen it in my data. I literally did a study where I randomly assigned

00:04:01.360 ages to dating profiles and I showed that like women lose value as they age on the heterosexual 1.00

00:04:06.220 market. Um, and so dating women was like a delightful surprise. And, you know, if I hadn't 1.00

00:04:13.060 been queer, right. And able to be attracted to women that wouldn't have worked. And also if I 0.86

00:04:17.820 hadn't like met somebody that I really loved, like that wouldn't have worked. So I don't mean

00:04:22.600 to make it seem like it was purely a statistical decision, but the statistics were on my side 0.91

00:04:28.140 because I think, you know, I don't think you need to marry a woman, but I do think you need to marry 0.94

00:04:32.380 someone who does the laundry. And so just like statistically, I had a higher chance, you know, 0.98

00:04:37.320 looking at women. This is very true. And I say this all the time. I'm like, if Nick Astor, 1.00

00:04:42.440 my sweet, sweet husband were to sadly, tragically perish tomorrow. I'm not marrying another man.

00:04:49.860 Like that is never gonna happen. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, you know, break one in. I'm not

00:04:56.700 gonna train one to do what it needs to do again. Like I will either happily be a lovely single

00:05:04.240 human in the world and pay for a lot of childcare, or I will become, you know, a very fabulous

00:05:10.720 lesbian you will be a fabulous lesbian i'm such a fabulous lesbian i know i know because that's

00:05:15.660 right it's like and i think that was um the thing that really pushed me to finally you know um

00:05:21.400 get separated was over parenting and that was i felt like that resentment of i have to teach

00:05:30.500 another adult how to parent like i'm supposed to like read the books and be on instagram and do all

00:05:35.500 that stuff to accumulate the knowledge to then distill to another human being, another adult

00:05:41.280 human being. And exactly what you said, raising our spouses. And it worked before I had a baby

00:05:51.180 that I needed to pour that nurturing energy into. But once I had a baby, it stopped working. I

00:05:57.100 didn't have that anymore. So yes. And so one of the things I tell women, young women who are

00:06:04.180 unlike us are still, you know, looking is like shop for someone who's already a full-grown human

00:06:10.220 on his own. And my friend gave me the best question to ask, which is, hey, do you have

00:06:17.120 a good dentist recommendation? Oh. Because you're going to find out that the last person who made

00:06:22.520 him a dentist appointment was his mother. Indeed. And he's waiting for you to be the

00:06:27.400 next person to make him a dentist appointment. Oh my God. I want a whole list of all of these

00:06:31.540 questions. Yes. And the book has them. So if you want the list, the book literally has a list of

00:06:35.740 interview questions. Yes. Because when you are getting married and you put this very well in

00:06:42.920 the book, I've been saying it for so long, you are entering into a business partnership as much

00:06:48.640 and probably more than you are entering into a romantic relationship. I mean, running a family

00:06:54.940 is a business and it is a partnership. And you should be interviewing for that job and not the

00:07:01.400 person who is going to make you go weak at the knees because that all changes at some point.

00:07:07.020 Yeah. And it's like great if they also make you go weak at the knees, right? But one of the things

00:07:10.860 is these things interact with each other. Like not having that good business partnership and

00:07:16.940 feeling supported will kill attraction faster than anything else. 100%.

00:07:22.160 So for you to actually maintain that attraction that you have, like you need the other stuff. 1.00

00:07:27.860 And absolutely, you need to be looking for a co-CEO because for women, it's also a hugely 1.00

00:07:33.600 important financial decision. 1.00

00:07:35.520 Your partner is the biggest determinant of your career success because what they do at

00:07:40.400 home directly translates into the hours that you get to try to develop your career.

00:07:45.480 Yep.

00:07:45.820 Yep.

00:07:46.040 I quote Catlin Moran all the time who said that your husband is your glass ceiling.

00:07:50.120 Yep.

00:07:50.640 Nothing is more true. 0.98

00:07:52.040 And also what is very true is that I truly want to have sex with my husband when all 0.81

00:07:59.700 of the other parts of my life are taken care of, when I'm not running around being the 0.67

00:08:04.500 one to organize the doctor's appointments and the play dates and do the laundry and

00:08:07.680 put the clothes away.

00:08:09.140 Yes.

00:08:09.780 And again, there's nothing less sexy than like having to parent the other adult in your

00:08:15.240 household, right?

00:08:16.140 Like that is such an unsexy dynamic.

00:08:18.100 And so like someone being able to be like a grown up and take charge of things in the 0.99

00:08:24.320 household and, you know, have their own preferences and opinions and take care of their own shit 0.99

00:08:29.780 so you don't have to, that's hot. 1.00

00:08:32.160 So hot.

00:08:32.920 So hot.

00:08:34.020 I mean, I just want to explain this to more men.

00:08:36.600 There is nothing hotter than like you being able to take care of yourself and other people.

00:08:41.860 Yes.

00:08:42.320 And that's, I do think that is the message that we need.

00:08:45.440 Like that is how we are going to claw our way out of this abyss that we're in that you

00:08:50.220 and I talked about earlier.

00:08:51.240 Like we are – we're in an abyss and the way we claw our way out is like men have gotten

00:08:56.300 the message that women don't want them so we need to be angry and we need to try to 0.96

00:09:01.060 control women. 1.00

00:09:02.180 And you could also change. 1.00

00:09:03.720 That's also an option.

00:09:05.160 You could become more desirable and the way you become more desirable is through caring

00:09:11.020 for yourself and other people.

00:09:12.400 Well said.

00:09:12.960 ah we have so much work to do to fix the world girl so much so much just again i'm screaming

00:09:21.420 we're screaming all of this into the void but you know abandoning men is not an option for you know

00:09:29.420 the cut article says for most straight women and i'm just gonna say some just gonna say some

00:09:33.760 straight women okay attraction is a spectrum i truly think i'm like there's a lot of things

00:09:39.700 that you can... There's a lot of people you could be into, truly. But if it is not an option for

00:09:46.160 someone, what can we do to try to level this playing field if we're also not up for divorce

00:09:53.340 at this point? Yeah. So, okay. I told you, if you're not in the relationship yet, find that 0.51

00:10:00.200 person who's already a full-grown adult who takes care of their own shit. If you are already in the 0.98

00:10:04.920 relationship with a man and you don't want to get divorced because divorce sucks too. There's a lot

00:10:09.080 of hard things about it. Right. And I, I want, I am rooting for your relationship. I'm rooting for

00:10:14.000 your husband to step up. Right. What do you need to do? And I think it comes down to ownership.

00:10:19.700 I think again, a super unsexy dynamic is you having like a low level level junior employee

00:10:25.620 that you delegate tasks to. Okay. Not hot. Um, ownership, somebody being a co CEO that is hot.

00:10:33.520 So tell him he's getting a promotion, good news, and he needs to take ownership of the

00:10:41.080 joint work of living and then find those domains that you are able to wholesale remove yourself

00:10:48.240 from because if you are still handling the mental load, you might as well just be doing

00:10:52.820 it.

00:10:53.240 So find the domains that he is able to take on.

00:10:56.740 Start with the ones where he does have some preferences where it's like, oh, okay, he

00:11:00.680 likes the laundry done a certain way.

00:11:02.080 Great, great.

00:11:02.960 You are captain laundry. And that doesn't mean that you just are the one who puts the load in.

00:11:08.320 It means you keep track of whether we have detergent, whether we have fabric softener,

00:11:12.140 when it needs to be done, sorting it and folding it and putting it away, end-to-end ownership.

00:11:18.120 And there's going to be some bumps in the road, but that end-to-end ownership facilitates the

00:11:23.640 learning by doing. Because if you just haven't packed the lunches, you're still, again,

00:11:28.680 managing the mental load of like, what do the kids eat? What are we out of? If he's in charge

00:11:33.740 end to end of, you know, shopping, meal planning, packing, cleaning out the lunchboxes, he's going

00:11:39.760 to find out that if he sends wheat thins instead of Triscuits, they come back uneaten every time.

00:11:45.240 And that if he doesn't clean out the lunchbox on Friday, it's really gross on Monday when he goes

00:11:49.580 to pack it again, right? And you're going to have to put up with that for a day that like, you know,

00:11:54.780 little Johnny got the wrong crackers and he's not going to starve. And also the sandwiches are not

00:11:58.900 going to be cut out in star shapes because men are not putting the pressure on themselves that

00:12:03.320 we are putting on ourselves to be these Instagrammable fairy, you know, domestic goddesses.

00:12:10.440 But it is going to get done. Yes, yes, yes. And yes. I mean, I have to say, I do not think

00:12:19.460 that social media and all of the social media memes and themes and the trad wife of it all

00:12:25.860 has done women any favors whatsoever in this sphere. And that's what I want to 0.93

00:12:30.620 talk about when we get back from a quick break. Okay, we are back. I want to talk about the

00:12:43.180 trad wife of it all and just the bullshit messaging that this is sending women that says we should be 1.00

00:12:50.600 doing all of these things we should be loving all of these things and also all of these things are 0.95

00:12:55.640 actually idyllic and don't involve any labor or work right and i want to call out the big lie

00:13:03.200 because where we're getting that message is social media and the women who are portraying that on 0.92

00:13:08.160 social media are not trad wives because they're monetizing their image of being a trad wife, 0.96

00:13:14.000 right? So they actually have a career and it's selling you this bullshit. So we've got to like 1.00

00:13:19.460 just start by calling that out because like when I see, and I do it all the time, I'm like, oh my

00:13:24.420 God, she's so good at like making the healthy salad and meal planning. And oh my gosh, like

00:13:29.220 she's so good at like having this beautifully decorated home and whatever. And that's because

00:13:34.720 that's their full-time job. I am as good at like being an economist at Wharton as they are at that,

00:13:41.980 right? Yes, you are. Yes, you are, girlfriend. Probably better, just telling you.

00:13:47.240 So I think we got to call that out that like that there's no trade-off for them between that home

00:13:51.900 life and their career because that is their career. They're also not a trad wife. That's 1.00

00:13:55.460 total bullshit because again, they're monetizing this, but they want you to be in the financially 0.99

00:14:01.420 precarious position of relying on somebody else to support you that they themselves are not in 0.98

00:14:07.740 because they are actually building these followers and this, you know, platform that is monetizable

00:14:15.060 by selling you that image? Like, what bullshit? What bullshit? I mean, I wrote a whole book about 0.97

00:14:22.520 it. Such bullshit. Truly, truly. But somehow we still manage to feel that guilt and shame 1.00

00:14:29.640 And that like, this is what a woman should be doing. And maybe you can't have it all. Maybe

00:14:36.080 you can't have the career. You should quit your corporate job. Having it all is the name of your

00:14:41.140 book. What does it actually mean for a woman in 2025 to have it all? Yeah. So I think that there 0.99

00:14:51.400 is this pushback that I do try to name in the book and make space for to the earlier movement that

00:14:59.200 said, like, lean into your career. That is self-fulfillment. That's what you're supposed

00:15:03.420 to be doing. That's the purpose of your life, right? I'm over that messaging. That was the

00:15:08.400 messaging. I mean, I think we're, like, around-ish the same age. That was the messaging that was fed

00:15:13.020 to me in, like, the 90s and 2000s, and it was not happy-making. Right. Exactly. Because, like,

00:15:19.460 as everybody knows, like, working 60 or 80 hours a week, like, that sucks. That's not fun. And,

00:15:25.940 And like I think those of us with kids, maybe other people had the same experience that 1.00

00:15:30.840 as this, you know, giant feminist, when I had kids, I was like, oh, I want to spend

00:15:35.200 time with my kids.

00:15:36.120 Like, oh, wow, uh-oh, you know, because I've been told that they're an inconvenience on

00:15:40.920 my path to what is supposed to be the purpose of my life, having this great career.

00:15:44.580 And I still wanted the career, but I also found that like I wanted to hold my baby,

00:15:49.820 right?

00:15:50.120 And I didn't resent that.

00:15:51.720 I resented that I didn't have the support that I needed, but I wanted to hold my baby.

00:15:55.240 And so that, I think, is what kind of produced the backlash, is that we didn't make space for the multiplicity of women's desires, but we have to make space for that while still protecting women economically. And you are not protected if you do not have your own human capital and your own ability to earn an income. And that is what a lot of women in the 70s and 80s found out and actually where the increase in women's labor force participation was.

00:16:25.240 that then produced the lean-in movement came from is that we had women sign up for the bargain of 0.50

00:16:32.200 you produce at home, he produces in the market under a secure marriage contract. And then we 0.63

00:16:37.440 had the divorce revolution that left a lot of women very, very poor because he walked out the

00:16:43.180 door with his career that she was actually investing in by taking care of everything at home. 0.99

00:16:48.500 And she had invested in public goods versus private goods that she could use to take care

00:16:53.920 of herself. So those women told their daughters, you better get a fucking job. And we are those 1.00

00:17:00.340 daughters who got the fucking jobs, right? We did. And now this next generation is like, 1.00

00:17:05.280 oh, that looks hard. It looks stressful. Maybe I don't want to do that, right? So we have to

00:17:10.860 caution that like, yes, you're right. That maybe that idea that careerism is the only path to

00:17:19.020 happiness, maybe that has some problems with it and you are a whole person and you deserve to be

00:17:24.920 self-actualized in multiple dimensions. But you cannot leave yourself exposed to the enormous

00:17:33.820 risk of not having an ability to earn an income yourself. Which I think is the most dangerous part

00:17:41.080 of the Trad Wife soft girl movement online of saying it's not just okay, but it's better. 0.93

00:17:49.860 You'll be happier if you're just financially dependent on a man when we all know the dangers

00:17:55.360 of that. But as an economist, utility is something that you talk a lot about in economics. I only

00:18:03.160 have an undergrad econ degree from Penn. It's not even from Wharton. It's from the College of Arts

00:18:08.080 and sciences. But I do remember utility being something that just like really sparked my

00:18:15.260 interest of thinking about different things in terms of what utility am I getting from that?

00:18:22.400 How do you explain that to women in terms of building a life that actually looks like having 0.98

00:18:27.280 it all for them? Yeah. So let's talk about a utility function. So economists model firms 0.99

00:18:35.320 is maximizing profit, individuals are maximizing something we call utility. And it's basically

00:18:40.920 happiness. But the reason that we don't say happiness is because it's a little bit like

00:18:44.340 deeper and richer than happiness because sometimes you do something that doesn't feel great in the

00:18:48.880 moment like, you know, put down your phone to like focus on a long-term project or set a limit with

00:18:54.600 your kid who then throws a tantrum. So utility is serving your values. It's the sum total of

00:18:59.960 your contentment and meaning and fulfillment and joy over a lifetime. And what's different about

00:19:07.220 that than a profit function is that it is unique to every individual. So nobody else could look

00:19:14.380 and say what your utility function is or whether you're maximizing it correctly.

00:19:18.740 Even though if we looked at a firm, almost everybody would agree, oh, they have the same

00:19:23.500 amount of profit. The accounting would be the same. But with utility, only you know what you

00:19:27.580 value. And the way I tell people to kind of figure that out so they can figure out what

00:19:32.960 they're having it all is, is to picture a world where they actually are independently wealthy.

00:19:38.400 So money is no object. What would your life look like? How would you spend your time?

00:19:43.500 And that is what you value. And now we need to figure out how to get you more of it.

00:19:47.880 So if you picture a lot of expensive things, expensive vacations, nice clothes, right? Okay,

00:19:55.040 material goods are important. So a career is really helpful with that because it converts

00:20:00.640 your time into money that you can use to buy those material things. Because in the real world,

00:20:05.840 you're not independently wealthy. But often people also picture things like time to take

00:20:11.520 those vacations, time with their loved ones, time with their kids. And then that's where the career

00:20:19.520 is in competition with that. Because if we put all of our time into this money conversion,

00:20:25.780 we don't have time to kind of make utility directly. So once we think about utility,

00:20:32.020 it lets us reframe productivity that like leisure time is actually productive because you are

00:20:39.420 converting your time into utility points. And why is it any more productive to spend your time

00:20:45.100 working, earn money, and then buy something that makes you happy to get utility points,

00:20:50.740 right?

00:20:51.020 So that's a new mantra for, you know, actually valuing and taking leisure time is saying,

00:20:55.880 I'm being so productive right now.

00:20:58.040 But you figure out you're having it all by really getting in touch with those values

00:21:03.220 and then figuring out how do you use your career as a tool to serve those values rather

00:21:10.160 than as an end in itself.

00:21:13.420 What would yours be?

00:21:15.100 if you were just independently wealthy. I say all the time, I'm like, I would be such a good,

00:21:18.740 really, really rich person. Yes. Well, I do think – I am lucky that I love my job,

00:21:25.940 but I always tell people like, yeah, if you love your job, you would do it for like 10,

00:21:31.360 15 hours a week. You wouldn't do it for 60 hours a week, right? So like I would still teach and I

00:21:36.720 would still write and I would still talk to people about these issues because I love it,

00:21:40.280 but I wouldn't put pressure on myself and I wouldn't travel so much away from my kids.

00:21:45.100 I would travel a lot with my family, right?

00:21:47.880 I would spend a lot of time, you know, traveling with my family.

00:21:52.080 I would spend a lot of time having family time and I would spend time taking care of

00:21:57.800 myself because that's also so important is like that's the self-care and the, you know,

00:22:04.480 exercise and sleep and eating healthy.

00:22:07.200 And that is stuff that gets pushed out, again, in the service of earning money, but that

00:22:13.560 self-care actually literally contributes to our longevity and quality of life when we're older.

00:22:20.420 And if we like overlook it now, you know, the money is not going to help us with that later on.

00:22:25.560 Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. I would also travel more with my family. The fun thing is I'm trying

00:22:33.160 to bring the kids now along on some of my work trips, which is getting more fun. Mine are slightly

00:22:38.940 older than yours I think I've got eight five and two yeah I have actually a similar range I have

00:22:45.000 an eight-year-old as my son but then I just had a baby so I have a four-month-old oh my gosh god

00:22:51.300 bless girl four-month-old on a book tour I've done it like four times or three times three times I

00:22:55.220 have been on a book tour literally every time I've had a baby somehow yeah book baby and baby at the

00:22:59.880 same time you know it it is a lot it is a lot a lot but yeah so and that's kind of fun like I have

00:23:06.500 a work event in Nashville next week and I'm bringing my daughter and it's like a woman's

00:23:10.820 empowerment thing. And so she gets to get dressed up and get her hair done and she's just going to

00:23:15.040 hang out and then we're going to be in Nashville. And so I'm like, oh, this brings more joy to

00:23:20.540 something. And that's what you've got to figure out. That's great. Like that's a hack. That's

00:23:23.380 a level up where you've figured out how to get joy at the same time as you're working and so

00:23:29.100 still be serving your values, serving your utility function and your parenting while you're working.

00:23:32.940 So Bravo, that's something I talk about is like, you know, there's lots of strategies

00:23:38.880 in the book about how do you protect your time more?

00:23:41.140 How do you figure out what to invest your time in?

00:23:43.840 But, you know, some people are like, well, I can't afford to like outsource.

00:23:46.560 What else can I do?

00:23:47.400 And I'm like, play, I'll clean your house because then you get leisure time.

00:23:52.540 You get together with a friend and you clean her house and then she comes over the next

00:23:56.200 night and you clean yours and you drink wine and you have fun together.

00:23:59.120 And so you're getting leisure time while you're actually accomplishing something.

00:24:01.880 and I don't know why it's so much easier to clean up somebody else's mess. 0.99

00:24:05.100 Oh my God, shut up. 0.98

00:24:05.840 I've never heard of like playing I'll clean your house 0.99

00:24:09.340 because I do let's go on Target dates together

00:24:11.520 or let's grocery shop together, which makes it so much better.

00:24:15.020 But like cleaning each other's houses together, I could do that all day long.

00:24:19.140 Yeah, it's great because it feels fun

00:24:22.520 and at the end of the day, your house is clean.

00:24:25.200 And also your kids are playing with their kids at the same time.

00:24:28.360 Yes, exactly, which is again another level up

00:24:30.240 is like doing things that are productive

00:24:31.720 while like somebody else's kids are watching yours.

00:24:34.360 Like playdates are childcare.

00:24:36.420 Playdates are childcare.

00:24:37.600 Oh my gosh, the amount of times

00:24:39.080 I have to explain this to like new parents

00:24:41.300 that playdates are childcare.

00:24:42.720 They're like, all right, so I'll come over.

00:24:44.300 And I'm like, get out of my house.

00:24:46.320 Yes, that's right.

00:24:48.260 Get out of my house.

00:24:49.480 I mean, I love it when it's my friends, right?

00:24:51.580 Right.

00:24:51.920 But at the same time, like a new person, I'm like, I don't.

00:24:53.860 Oh yeah, it's my nightmare if somebody wants to sit and chat

00:24:56.520 because I was like, no, no, no.

00:24:57.600 I was planning on working or getting something done while my kid was occupied with your kid.

00:25:02.480 Yeah, exactly. No, no, no, no, no. We're not just going to – this isn't happening. But it's one of

00:25:07.120 the most awkward conversations to have with someone to be like, nope, leave. Get out. I

00:25:12.980 don't want to hang out with you because I don't. Because I don't. I want to hang out. That also is

00:25:18.380 why I try to steer my kid to be friends with people where I like their parents. But that

00:25:23.800 gets trickier as they get older. You're like, oh, no, I liked those parents and you don't hang out

00:25:27.820 with that kid anymore. Exactly. Exactly. I'm like, oh, that kid's not available for you. I'm sorry.

00:25:33.760 She's like, well, she's having a play date with other people. And I'm like, not with you. Not

00:25:37.840 with you any longer. That parent's weird. Sorry. Okay, let's take a quick break. And when we get

00:25:44.820 back, I want to focus on this leveling up because I think that this is something we do need to talk

00:25:49.980 about more like what are the small things we can do to be improving our life if we can't quit our

00:25:56.280 50 hour a week job or if we can't afford to outsource like what are the things that we can

00:26:00.980 be doing right now and if we have to continue to be married to a man um I mean you're living the

00:26:06.240 dream okay just living the dream um one of the one of my favorite things that my son said his

00:26:11.420 best friend has two moms and he just he came home two years ago he was little when he said this and

00:26:16.940 he's like, he is so lucky. And I'm like, I know. That's such a compliment to you.

00:26:24.020 I know. He's like, can you imagine having two moms? And I'm like, yes, I can. Yes,

00:26:29.360 I can. And that sounds lovely. Amazing for everyone. For everyone. All right. We will

00:26:33.920 be right back. Whether life serves you an ace or an unexpected backhand,

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00:27:11.760 Okay, and we're back.

00:27:13.320 Talk to me a little bit about leveling up.

00:27:15.340 The book gets into this in such great detail, but what are some small things that people

00:27:19.300 can take away right now to actually improve their lives, to feel like they're having it

00:27:24.660 all when having it all does often feel like we're dropping every single ball?

00:27:29.020 Yeah.

00:27:29.460 So I think of my book as a little bit of an answer to Lean In because Lean In says just

00:27:35.000 work harder in a situation that's not working, right?

00:27:37.580 And I'm like, no, if it's not working, you need to change the situation.

00:27:40.980 And that's what I call leveling up.

00:27:42.560 So, you know, in economics, we are maximizing subject to constraints and a level up is where you actually change the constraints. So, you know, there's big shifts like, you know, divorce, right? Or like moving to a cheaper city or like changing jobs.

00:28:00.100 I've seen some women where their level up was that they thought that they wanted the 1.00

00:28:05.920 corporate law job or they thought that they wanted the job that served their humanitarian 1.00

00:28:12.820 interests but had shitty pay.

00:28:16.180 And then after they had kids, they were like, no, I actually need a job that converts my

00:28:20.340 time into money efficiently, right?

00:28:23.040 And then I'll get my fulfillment someplace else instead of having that just through my

00:28:27.220 career.

00:28:27.540 So those are the big ones that are level ups. And then there's small level ups of figuring out how to just increase your support system, right? And so one of those level ups, and I know we said if you can't afford to outsource everything, but I am going to call out outsourcing because I just need to call this out, our gender bias in outsourcing, which is that I'm going to name some stuff that a lot of families outsource.

00:28:54.240 and that's taking the car to a mechanic, that's calling a plumber when the toilet breaks or

00:29:00.840 something's leaking, that's fixing the roof. Even often lawn care, some people do it themselves,

00:29:07.380 some people outsource it. Why do we feel comfortable with that? Well, we think that

00:29:12.300 men's time has value. Even very modest income families take their car to the mechanic for an 0.96

00:29:18.980 oil change because we assign value to men's time. And so we're like, oh, it's worth it, 0.98

00:29:23.260 70 bucks for the oil change. Anybody could spend an hour on YouTube and could figure out how to

00:29:27.740 change their oil, right? Your husband can do that. But again, we assign value to men's time.

00:29:32.240 So I do push gently on that to say, you know, that budget of money in the household,

00:29:39.060 it's a joint budget and it's a joint time budget too. And, you know, if he's not going to invest

00:29:45.940 more of his time in your sanity, can some of the household's money budget be invested in your

00:29:50.640 sanity? And why do we see it as an unaffordable luxury to hire a professional organizer? Because

00:29:56.080 as women, we're like, but I should be able to do that myself when we don't view it as an 0.99

00:29:59.800 unaffordable luxury to get an oil change. I have actually literally never thought

00:30:05.520 about those things as outsourcing, but of course they are. Yep.

00:30:10.820 Yes. But we do not talk about them like that. Yeah. Because the language of outsourcing implies

00:30:17.020 it should be insourced. And so we apply it to the stuff that we feel like we should do, right? It's

00:30:23.460 two things like, you know, the laundry and, you know, the house cleaning and, you know, organizing

00:30:29.640 and things like that. But why? Why should we do those things? And why is it that we assume that,

00:30:34.960 you know, men shouldn't do all those tasks that we so often hire someone for?

00:30:39.680 Because yes, changing the oil takes 15 minutes.

00:30:43.720 Anybody can do it. 0.97

00:30:44.660 But again, we assign value to men's time so we don't expect them to insource.

00:30:49.540 And so the reframe I give people is if you don't outsource, you're hiring yourself for 0.50

00:30:55.700 that job.

00:30:57.120 And he's not hiring himself for the oil change.

00:31:00.200 He's hiring the mechanic.

00:31:01.640 Are you hiring yourself for too many jobs? 1.00

00:31:04.700 The answer is always yes when you're a woman.

00:31:08.020 Yeah, because I often – like sometimes I talk to people and they do feel financially

00:31:10.920 constrained.

00:31:11.340 I talked to this one woman who's a freelance journalist, and she's like, well, it feels

00:31:14.400 expensive to do it. And I was like, what's your freelance rate? And she tells me her freelance

00:31:17.860 rate. And I said, so would you ever take this job, the laundry job, right? And it's like, no,

00:31:22.600 that doesn't make sense at my freelance rate, right? Oh, I should hire somebody else to do it.

00:31:28.660 Yes, yes, and yes. I want to get personal for a second. Do you feel like you are having more of

00:31:35.820 it all after marrying a woman, after marrying a good woman? It's not like you just chose any

00:31:39.580 woman. You married a great wife, but do you feel like you have more utility in your life?

00:31:46.120 Yes. I mean, 100%. And I mean, for me, it was really not just from when I got married,

00:31:51.640 even though my wife is amazing and we really have a great life, but it was getting divorced

00:31:57.560 and moving closer to my job. That right there was the game changer. And as soon as I went from a

00:32:03.440 two and a half hour commute to a seven minute commute. I cannot believe you were doing a two

00:32:07.320 and a half hour commute. That's also bonkers bananas. With a baby.

00:32:11.920 Pumping in the Amtrak bathroom, crying. Yes. As soon as I got that time back and then I moved to

00:32:19.580 a cheaper city so I could afford more help and I gave myself permission to get help because I had

00:32:24.060 this fantasy that we were sharing the work even though we weren't. And so I wasn't actually getting

00:32:28.380 that outside help, but moved to a cheaper city, could afford more help, got to make my space my

00:32:34.100 own and keep it the way I wanted to without resenting it. Because like in my marriage,

00:32:38.780 it was like, well, I don't want to like be the person who is responsible for making our house

00:32:43.680 better. Like I hate that I have to do this. And so I just stopped doing it. You know, I,

00:32:47.920 I compromised with what I actually wanted, like eating healthy food, having a space that looked

00:32:52.700 nice because I resented that I had to be the one to do it. So I, I changed completely the way I

00:33:00.200 felt about my life, you know, when it was mine. And then I had so much guilt over what that was

00:33:06.680 going to do for my son, like actually splitting up. But my relationship with him got so much

00:33:12.200 better. And I saw that taking care of myself and taking care of him were not in competition.

00:33:17.980 Actually, in order to take care of him, I needed to take care of myself because then I could be

00:33:23.260 present with him. Like I could sit and play the board game on the floor and I could cuddle with

00:33:28.100 him without counting the minutes, you know? And so that's a lesson anybody can take without

00:33:34.020 getting a divorce is just that you absolutely cannot let yourself be your last priority in life

00:33:39.020 and you are a member of the household. So if something is not working for you,

00:33:43.620 it's not working for the family. And you should set those limits before you get to the point where

00:33:48.000 I was at, where, you know, I just, I needed to make the big, the big change. But yeah. And then

00:33:54.000 And in my relationship with my wife, like it is a revelation for somebody to have their

00:34:00.320 own views, their own preferences, their own desires related to our household and our kids

00:34:06.140 instead of it feeling like I'm the person kind of dragging that person along.

00:34:12.220 And it was great.

00:34:13.700 And I just did my first like longer book tour trip.

00:34:18.060 I've done these like single overnights, but this one, just the way the events stacked

00:34:21.460 up, there was no way for me to get home in between.

00:34:23.280 And so I was gone for three nights and four days.

00:34:25.820 And the feeling of I know that she's got it back home and I know that the kids are okay.

00:34:31.600 And so I'm here and I'm present on my book tour instead of mentally being there and checking

00:34:36.520 in a million times a day.

00:34:37.820 It was amazing.

00:34:39.380 It's amazing.

00:34:40.300 And I'm finally there in my marriage.

00:34:43.680 And I'm married to a great man.

00:34:45.500 I'm married to a feminist, right?

00:34:46.740 I'm married to someone who wanted an equal marriage.

00:34:48.700 I do not think that men are trained or culturally raised to be this way at all.

00:34:56.340 And it's something I work on a lot with my son, who we just taught to do laundry.

00:35:01.560 Love it.

00:35:02.300 I'm really, really excited about.

00:35:04.460 I don't do laundry in my house.

00:35:06.280 I don't touch it.

00:35:07.060 I don't see it.

00:35:07.660 I do put it away, which I still find annoying.

00:35:09.500 But I don't go in the laundry room.

00:35:12.720 Yeah, I also don't do the laundry. 1.00

00:35:14.820 And that's my wife jokes about it all the time. 0.99

00:35:16.200 She's like, you haven't done a lot of laundry since I moved in because we have this nice 1.00

00:35:20.620 natural division that like she cares more about cleaning and I care more about the cooking. 0.59

00:35:25.540 And so that's our kind of division. 0.98

00:35:26.860 So like she cleans, she does all the laundry. 0.99

00:35:29.580 It is great.

00:35:30.620 And it's also great that like she's the soccer mom because I am not athletically inclined.

00:35:35.100 So that's also great.

00:35:36.820 But yes, I am so happy for you.

00:35:39.080 And I see that with a lot.

00:35:40.940 I do see friends that are happy in their heterosexual marriages.

00:35:43.520 And I'm like, yes, go you.

00:35:44.960 But it was also work. But I do think it took a lot of work. It took a lot of negotiations and took a lot of – I don't want to say I didn't train my husband, but a lot of just like retraining.

00:35:56.320 Because when we talk about outsourcing and that men's time is valuable, they have also been so trained that their time is only valuable if they're working at a job outside of the home.

00:36:07.100 A hundred percent. And I see that like I feel empathy for men. I feel like they are stuck

00:36:13.280 because they have been taught the same way we judge ourselves according to these domestic 0.99

00:36:18.660 things and it's bullshit, right? It's a signal from outside that we need to tune out in order 0.98

00:36:25.240 to tune into what we actually want. I think they have been trained to judge themselves based on

00:36:30.260 career success and that is self-actualization for them. And so then if their wife is earning more

00:36:36.420 or something like that, I feel like they are really stuck. And so when I see in the data

00:36:40.340 these couples where the wife is earning four times as much and the husband is still working

00:36:46.280 more hours than she is, right? Even though he's earning a quarter of what she is per hour,

00:36:52.520 he's working more hours. I see men being stuck. I'm like, oh, you don't know what to do with

00:36:58.520 yourself other than work. You don't know how to be a provider and how to be productive

00:37:02.800 outside of work. And that's the work we have to do. And you're doing it with your son

00:37:08.500 to teach men that there is more to life and there's more ways to contribute and be a provider

00:37:15.040 in the household. And I think that is some like mental work of like letting go of the idea that,

00:37:21.860 you know, the only way for me to be productive is to work. And so I think that piece of it,

00:37:27.100 you know, it's not so much about the intention. I think actually if we can have some empathy and

00:37:31.000 say, I know you want to support me. I know you want to do half, but what does that actually

00:37:35.100 take to get there? Yeah. And then feeling good about that half, feeling like you are being

00:37:42.300 productive, that your time is valued. Doing that work that men have not been told is valuable for

00:37:50.240 them. They just haven't for so long. I could talk about this all day long, but I have to go get my

00:37:55.800 nails done with my daughter. Love that. I do. I do. She's off school today. The two big kids 0.99

00:38:01.680 are off school. And I've been promising her all day that we would go get our nails done.

00:38:06.020 Listen to Jo because she is so smart on these combos of like, look, she's getting her nails 0.99

00:38:11.140 done and she's parenting at the same time. Beautiful. We love a productive queen.

00:38:16.240 I mean, truth, truth. And I love being called a productive queen. My nail salon knows what's up

00:38:20.800 because they give kid manicures, which take them two minutes for $5. And it's like, all right,

00:38:27.660 great. I'll come in as often as possible. If I can bring a kid with me, it's a business model

00:38:32.820 right there. It's like the orthodontist who also does Botox.

00:38:39.120 Brilliant. Your new book, Having It All, I think it's essential reading for both men and women.

00:38:43.580 I don't want to just tell women to get this. I want to tell men to get this

00:38:46.060 because men need to know how to support women and need to understand this better.

00:38:50.800 Yes, and I've had great conversations with men around the book, and that honestly gives me hope, and we need hope.

00:38:56.100 We need hope.

00:39:20.800 Thank you.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - October 09, 2025

Divorcing Heterosexuality (and Other Data-Driven Decisions)

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