Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - How Reality TV Changed How We Consume Stories with Survivor's Stephen Fishbach

00:00:00.000 hey y'all joe here and you are listening to under the influence it's been a minute since i watched

00:00:11.660 survivor it really has i mean i barely watch anything on tv anymore we're just so exhausted

00:00:18.560 by bedtime that nick and i pretty much just collapse so we like we look at each other and

00:00:25.420 were like, we should maybe make out. But I'm so tired. I'm just so tired. Because putting three

00:00:33.040 kids to bed is like performing an opera every single night. We did recently start watching

00:00:39.640 The Pit, and we made it through the first season. I'm real proud of us for committing to doing that

00:00:45.600 thing. But I will tell you that my survivor watching has fallen by the wayside. In one of

00:00:50.880 the last scenes I watched, Steven Fischbach was the runner-up. And now he's a debut novelist.

00:00:57.820 Steve's new novel, Escape, is a really propulsive, inside-the-machine story about a former reality

00:01:03.380 contestant desperate to reclaim his hero narrative, and a producer who's equally desperate to control

00:01:10.280 the storyline. In my mind, Survivor is one of the most powerful storytelling machines on the planet.

00:01:16.080 and reality tv is just the precursor to what we're watching right now with influencers

00:01:22.720 on social media except now it's the influencers who shape their own stories

00:01:27.720 so looking back talking about survivor talking about strategy and production and storytelling

00:01:33.300 and narrative all this matters so much right now and also survivor is still on i'm pretty sure it's

00:01:39.240 the most successful reality franchise in the history of reality television and that's for a

00:01:44.100 reason. That's just one of the things Stephen and I are going to talk about today.

00:01:54.460 Hey, Stephen, how you doing? I'm great. I'm so excited to be here.

00:01:58.700 I'm so excited to have you here. I'm going to start with a question that I'm sure you've been

00:02:02.660 asked, but I'm dying to know the answer. What is harder, survivor or writing a novel?

00:02:09.840 Oh my gosh, that's easy. It is writing a novel by a billion. Because Survivor, it's over in a month. And even as miserable as it can be in a moment, you know that in, you know, 30 days, 38 days, 26 days, 39 days, it's going to be over. But with a novel, it may never be over. And that is always the fear and constant challenge. It's like, it could be 10 years. It could be a million years.

00:02:36.080 Totally. I mean, hopefully this book is lasts for a million years. I mean, as authors, that is what we want. Right. We're like, I want someone to find this book a million years from now and be like, oh, this is our new this is our new Bible right here. This this is it for us.

00:02:52.120 That is that was my goal when I wrote this. But I also just mean the struggle of creation. You know, it's like when I was writing this book, it took a decade from conception to being finished. And like during the time, I just like literally never knew if it would be done. I never knew if it would be produced. I knew that Survivor Season was going to be produced. And sometimes I was not happy about that. Not happy about sharing my moments with the world. But at least I knew there was an end product in sight.

00:03:15.380 There was an end product insight. Okay, so let's back up. This book has been a long time coming. When did you first get the idea for it?

00:03:22.920 Yeah. I mean, I was initially, so I had been on Survivor a few times and I was, I had resolved to write a novel and I was writing a novel about the thing that every person who lives in New York writes about, which is a New York media guy working in media and all the peregrinations of that life.

00:03:38.420 Oh my God. They're so, they're so boring. How many New York media guy novels are there?

00:03:42.000 yeah so that was my feeling too i was like the world did not need another one of these

00:03:46.080 and i mean i've written one don't you worry i've written one maybe maybe after that one

00:03:51.520 the world did not need another one um but but uh i and i mean look it might that might be in my

00:03:56.960 future too but i uh was you realize i sort of had unique access to this world of reality television

00:04:02.760 in a way that i i you know not just from having been a contestant twice but also i worked on the

00:04:07.740 TV network side. Most of my career was at MTV. I've worked for a nonfiction producer trade group.

00:04:12.440 So I feel like other than hoisting a camera, I'd kind of seen it all. And I'd never really seen it

00:04:17.960 depicted in fiction in a way that I felt captured the real texture of that world and that experience,

00:04:25.540 which I think is a really, really interesting world. So I thought maybe I could do that.

00:04:30.180 I love that. I love that. And I haven't seen that either. I mean, I wrote about entertainment for

00:04:36.360 a long time. I covered Survivor. I covered all of every, every iteration of every dating show

00:04:42.200 of all time. And I actually have never seen this world captured this well on the page until your

00:04:48.300 book. So kudos to you. Oh, thank you so much, especially from an insider. That's incredible.

00:04:52.220 That's incredible. I mean, truly like when I've had producers or other contestants reach out to

00:04:56.700 me and say like, this felt really authentically true. That's enormously gratifying because like

00:05:01.340 That was my goal was to create something that felt really true with the hope and expectation that if I could create something really specific and accurate for the people who lived it, that that like would sort of, you know, broaden out to a bigger audience than the 700 Survivor contestants.

00:05:14.160 Right. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, something that is fun and engaging, too.

00:05:20.340 I think a lot of people are more reality TV savvy than they were when the genre first popped up 25 years ago.

00:05:29.000 Right. But what we do know is that there's so much storytelling involved in this, quote, reality story.

00:05:37.740 Right. The producers are creating characters.

00:05:40.760 They're creating masterminds, heroes, villains.

00:05:44.760 And did watching all of this go down actually help you figure out how to craft your characters?

00:05:51.740 Absolutely. I mean, that was the really remarkable thing, even just as an observer of these producers.

00:05:57.160 And then also when I went back and wrote this book, I did a lot of interviews with producers because I didn't want this book to just be about Survivor.

00:06:03.340 I wanted it to be about, you know, reality TV generally, you know, maybe more specifically jungle reality TV shows.

00:06:08.100 So I spoke to a lot of producers.

00:06:09.920 And what was amazing to me was the way that they digested all of this chaotic real life happening in front of them in terms of scenes and story arcs, like literally scenes.

00:06:20.660 You know, like that was the part that really blew my mind was I was talking to a producer and she's like, oh, yeah, that's that's where the scene ends.

00:06:25.120 That's your way and that's your button.

00:06:26.280 i don't even know what a button is but like it sounded like really really technical and cool

00:06:29.700 and like i was like you know we were just like interacting having like our life together but

00:06:34.720 like they were like perceiving it as scenes that they could put into a story and certainly like

00:06:40.380 that helped me when i was structuring it um because you know there's always that question of

00:06:45.520 you know do you let your characters live their chaotic lives on the page or do you structure it

00:06:51.160 and advanced and in a way like that's what reality producers are doing too right they are

00:06:55.720 literally letting their characters live their chaotic lives on on the you know ground in front

00:07:00.380 of them but also structuring it at the same time so i really found that duality of i know i have a

00:07:07.040 three-act structure i know you know this is a tv show there's a winner at the end um but along the

00:07:13.320 way i need to give like them kind of like space to breathe and kind of like try to observe what

00:07:17.300 those scenes are. Yeah, it is so much like character creation. I mean, because when I'm

00:07:22.440 writing a novel, I'm like, OK, I am going to let my characters come to life as I sit down. I get

00:07:28.200 my butt in the seat. I write 2000 words a day. Right. And we're going to see what happens. But 0.91

00:07:33.160 then I have all of this stuff to edit down. And I'm like, what are the actual scenes here? What

00:07:37.780 is the actual arc here? And I'm just always so impressed by reality television producers ability

00:07:43.240 to take thousands and thousands of hours of tape.

00:07:45.820 It is so much tape and then boil it down into a season.

00:07:49.920 It is truly remarkable.

00:07:51.820 It's incredible.

00:07:52.440 I mean, and I've had the gift of watching a show

00:07:55.420 sitting next to a producer

00:07:56.800 and just the level of detail of everything that's happening,

00:08:01.120 you know, like the sound design

00:08:02.520 that goes into making someone's chattering teeth

00:08:04.300 or like the way a title will animate in,

00:08:06.280 you know, just how precise every single detail is.

00:08:11.080 Almost in some ways more than a novel,

00:08:13.000 you know with a novel you're sort of letting your subconscious take over a lot of times but these

00:08:17.300 people craft every i mean of course they have like the chaos of the real world that is like

00:08:22.100 taking over for them which i guess we're like the great unconscious but um you know every single

00:08:25.920 detail of their editing process is very deliberate yeah no absolutely absolutely do you think that

00:08:32.260 being on survivor uh helped you kind of figure out the strategy for creating you know something

00:08:41.780 that is definitely you know a page turner because you have to keep the reader hooked right if you

00:08:48.340 have to keep them with you did being a contestant on the show help you do that help you keep the

00:08:54.740 hooks i hope so certainly the goal you're like you tell me joe you tell me yeah um no i mean i i think

00:09:03.560 you're there's something there and honestly like i'm still unpacking how much like the contested

00:09:07.720 aspect has influenced the writing aspect you know a friend said like this is you taking control

00:09:11.700 of the narrative like you've always been a character and now you're the storyteller and i'm

00:09:15.080 like oh you're wow that actually that actually just that actually just blew my mind i'm like wow

00:09:19.760 no i mean yeah yeah yeah he's like he's like you stepped out of the matrix and now you're

00:09:24.200 controlling the matrix and so clearly i need to like talk to that you know talk about that with

00:09:29.260 my therapist but certainly being a player on survivor but also just like witnessing the genre

00:09:35.900 i podcast about the genre i've been writing about the genre and you know i've seen its evolution

00:09:40.960 even in the even in like the two decades since i've been a part of it but it has become much

00:09:46.720 more explosive and they really are leading more towards you know big moments and cliffhangers

00:09:51.960 because of the way everyone's attention span has changed you know and people have so much

00:09:57.480 expect so much more and i did feel that sense of if i'm writing for this audience and not every

00:10:03.700 reader i think always needs that but like i knew that like my sort of core audience would be people

00:10:08.300 who love reality television, like I can't I have to offer them something that they're

00:10:12.820 going to enjoy that's going to keep their attention and be thrilling in the way that

00:10:16.900 watching a reality show is thrilling, because otherwise they're just going to put the book

00:10:19.820 down and watch the show.

00:10:21.540 Yeah, no, absolutely.

00:10:22.440 Absolutely.

00:10:23.240 I remain amazed at the staying power of Survivor.

00:10:28.100 I mean, this show has just it's the pun intended.

00:10:32.900 The show has survived when we have seen so many other reality television franchises just disappear from the public consciousness.

00:10:43.200 What is it about Survivor that gives it so much staying power?

00:10:47.940 It's really such a perfect format.

00:10:49.560 I think there's so much that goes into it.

00:10:51.580 You know, first of all, it's like people surviving together in the jungle.

00:10:55.680 And I think that right there is extremely appealing.

00:10:57.740 You know, there's a whole swath of reality shows that are literally just that and no more, right?

00:11:03.040 You can have a successful reality show that's just people surviving together in the jungle because there's something that's so appealing.

00:11:09.400 And I think it becomes ever more appealing to us as our lives become, you know, more digital and more technologically mediated and everything is in front of a screen.

00:11:18.260 there's just so much romance to this idea of like i you know through this character on the tv screen

00:11:24.420 you know through my avatar on the tv screen i'm like stepping back into that primal world and

00:11:28.260 are we gonna make it you know and you know what am i gonna do to like survive out there so even

00:11:33.060 just that layer i think is um really um appealing the challenges too i mean you know are when when

00:11:41.020 we when kids watch survivor like that's what they're excited about i see these huge obstacle

00:11:45.440 courses and i think like that's appealing to people too even if like i i don't particularly

00:11:50.400 love the challenges but the idea of i'm playing some like big obstacle course game in the middle

00:11:55.380 of the jungle is appealing to like the kid and all of us i think on some level and then on top

00:12:00.240 of that you have what is actually the best part of the show which is this social strategy game

00:12:04.840 that is so perfect where we're bringing 16 or 20 or 24 people putting them together they have to

00:12:11.200 live together you know to survive um but they also have to vote each other out one by one in a game

00:12:17.840 where there's only one winner and the it's just like a perfectly structured social strategy game

00:12:24.720 set against the perfect backdrop with all of these like really fun set pieces in the challenges and

00:12:31.320 it's just like this i truly like it's like it's like a perfect format yeah no it truly is it's

00:12:36.920 very compelling television. I've actually been thinking about going back to season one

00:12:41.560 and starting it with my kids because I think that they'll really get into it. And especially

00:12:48.220 the original seasons, which I remember watching in real time, will be really fun to go back to.

00:12:54.880 I'm so glad you brought up the social strategy part of it because that's what I want to talk

00:12:58.460 about next. Let's take a really quick break and dig into that.

00:13:06.920 Okay, we are back.

00:13:11.760 You've talked about this a lot.

00:13:14.060 Survivor truly is more of a social strategy game than anything else.

00:13:20.120 What do you think the viewers have?

00:13:22.980 Like, what do you think the viewers' misconceptions are about who actually wins Survivor?

00:13:28.020 That's interesting.

00:13:28.660 I mean, I think there's just obviously this baseline idea that the best player wins.

00:13:32.900 And that's not always the case.

00:13:34.460 um you know there's something to be said for that heuristic that the point of this game is to win

00:13:43.680 and therefore whatever you do or don't do to get to that point means you're the best player for

00:13:47.980 that season the word like best is like very confusing because everybody has a different

00:13:53.880 different standard when it means best um and so i think that there's like all just all these

00:13:59.080 different kinds of strategies that play out and there's just a tremendous amount of luck i guess

00:14:03.460 that's the real takeaway it's like even when you first step onto the beach the biggest luck factor

00:14:10.100 is who you're with right if i'm with a bunch of people who are just like me and i naturally jive

00:14:15.740 with i am going to do great you know i'm going to form an alliance quickly i'm going to like be able

00:14:21.520 to maneuver the game with this sort of like comfortable buffer around me of my different

00:14:25.840 allies who i happen to connect with or maybe not even just like me just like for whatever reason

00:14:29.040 I connect. Like on my first season, you know, my number one ally was an Alabama cattle rancher.

00:14:34.540 And he was not just like me, but we just really connected. And that gave us, you know,

00:14:38.840 power in the game because we were a tighter duo than anybody else. But if you step onto that beach

00:14:43.520 and there's nobody who you like, and you know, you're an outlier for some reason, maybe you're

00:14:48.140 a different ethnicity or for the other people, or you're, you're older than other people.

00:14:51.420 Your, you know, your cultural background is different than other people. Like

00:14:54.040 suddenly you feel like an outlier for this group and you can't make those bonds as intuitively

00:15:00.500 and you're kind of alone in the game and you can you know it's a really difficult burden

00:15:05.940 to to overcome so i think there's just like the tremendous amount of luck of course like

00:15:10.180 there's like twists and blindsides and someone played an idol you couldn't have expected so

00:15:14.740 like there's that luck but i think like the real core of the luck is just like who you happen to

00:15:19.020 be cast with yeah i mean do you think that survivor i mean and again a lot of this is it's

00:15:24.440 we're seeing this through a reality television filter but do you think it actually is kind of

00:15:29.700 a study of human nature oh yeah i mean it's absolutely a microcosm of of society in such

00:15:35.400 a great way where like truly you are bringing together all of these people again from like

00:15:41.680 across the the country from all different communities from all different walks of life

00:15:46.160 who all have different like frameworks and outlooks what was interesting to me when i went

00:15:51.320 back the second time was like how it like reduced me or like boiled me down not to like just like

00:15:57.660 some like weird high school version of myself like i went out my second time i was like 35 years old

00:16:03.860 confident you know corporate executive like i thought like i'm gonna go out i'm gonna be you

00:16:08.060 know in charge of this thing i went out and i was an awkward teenager again somehow you know i was

00:16:13.860 like nervous and like even like physically like like put pulled back into myself uh couldn't like

00:16:19.120 connect with anybody I was suddenly like the nerd at the table you know the at the in the lunch in

00:16:23.980 the lunchroom so it was really interesting to me how like being in this extreme situation and

00:16:30.320 especially like being in this really like tough kind of social environment did sort of like take

00:16:34.980 me right back almost to this like 80s cliche version of myself yeah I think that a lot when

00:16:41.440 i'm watching the survivor and also a lot of other reality shows i'm like oh my gosh everyone's back

00:16:46.060 in high school again yeah and not in a way like it's not even like deliberate or conscious or like

00:16:50.960 how did that happen like it was so immediate like there was no like i didn't like slowly regress i

00:16:56.060 immediately transformed it's like when you go home you know to stay with your parents or something

00:16:59.860 and suddenly like you're a bratty teen again yeah it's not even when i go home to stay with my

00:17:03.420 parents it's it's literally like my mother walks into my house and i'm like oh my god yeah why'd

00:17:09.660 you look at me like that exactly exactly yeah it's like i'm the worst person on the planet

00:17:15.380 it's wild that like that that aspect of people i mean it lives inside them you know and

00:17:21.280 watching survivor it's like the best it's like the best human um i don't know like the carnival

00:17:27.880 like you just get to see people in these like extreme circumstances like behaving in ways that

00:17:32.660 You never get to see people behave just last night on Survivor season 50 premiered.

00:17:40.620 And there's this.

00:17:40.900 Oh, my God, I can't believe it's season 50.

00:17:42.380 That's insane to me.

00:17:43.300 I know.

00:17:43.560 It's crazy.

00:17:44.020 It's crazy.

00:17:44.820 But there's this moment between like Mike White, who created the White Lotus, and this

00:17:49.040 guy, if you're not a Survivor fan, named Coach, Coach Wade, who calls himself the Dragon Slayer.

00:17:54.640 And it's this like little crazy interpersonal moment where Mike just says some casual thing

00:17:59.380 and Coach is like stunned.

00:18:00.800 and you see Mike commenting on it because of course like he's like one of the great

00:18:05.520 documentaries of human nature in our time and um like the way he draws out the little like

00:18:11.000 aspects and elements of coach's reaction it's just like so profound and it's not something

00:18:15.120 you'd ever get you wouldn't even really get it in a scripted show because it's like so

00:18:19.480 little from a coach and like you you have to have like someone else out there narrating it you know

00:18:25.020 yeah no exactly exactly how aware were you of the edit while you were playing at least the first time

00:18:33.420 the first time i was totally oblivious and i remember there was this moment like right at the

00:18:38.060 end when um we were all kind of it was right actually we voted out coach coach was on my

00:18:44.280 season two so it was right after we voted out coach and one of the producers said to me oh he's

00:18:48.520 gonna be so happy he's gonna be a huge character in every episode and i was like oh my god we're

00:18:52.780 characters in episodes like that was like what like i've been playing a strategy game on an island

00:18:56.940 and you're telling me we're characters and episodes um and that was something that i actually

00:19:01.960 really tried to capture in my book too is that when you go out there like you're so immersed in

00:19:06.660 what's happening and then like afterwards you're like oh no like that was just like the sideshow

00:19:12.020 the real show is like literally the show it's like the fact that this is going to air in prime time

00:19:17.820 on cbs and i'm going to be a character and like how that character is portrayed is how millions

00:19:25.260 of people will perceive me and will then like remember me forever you know there's still

00:19:29.400 discussions on reddit that pop up about like why did fishback do you know i want to get into it

00:19:35.740 like i didn't do that or like it was edited that way or like i did that for a thousand reasons that

00:19:39.680 you didn't see but like you can't have those fights constantly right well how but how do you

00:19:44.080 protect yourself from that? I mean, we talk a lot about that on this show. When you're, you know,

00:19:49.080 an influencer or an author, anyone who puts themselves on social media, you are immediately

00:19:54.500 opening yourself up to criticism. How do you protect yourself as a human when everyone has

00:20:00.100 an opinion about you? Yeah, it's challenging. And, you know, my first time it was awesome.

00:20:05.100 You know, I had a great edit and the online communities love me mostly. And it was just so

00:20:10.820 exciting you know this was like 2009 before online was just like a constant like toxic pustule but

00:20:17.400 like you know there was like positivity and hope for the the the online you know world universe

00:20:21.980 then um but but um it was wonderful like people were talking about me and they were praising me

00:20:26.700 or they were criticizing me and it was just like fun like someone was making funny like fun of the

00:20:30.360 way that i ran and i was like that was like ridiculous like how cool that someone out there

00:20:34.280 is commenting on like my running you know my running style um but it did make me change my

00:20:37.820 running stuff but um the uh then it's really hard like there's really no how to it you know i think

00:20:44.040 you just have to ignore it to a certain degree um i really immersed myself my second time i read

00:20:50.500 everything and it was very bad oh my god that's really bad that's really bad for your brain

00:20:54.980 yeah and over time the negativity basically dissipates and i still will occasionally get

00:21:00.780 like a rare negative comment but it's mostly positivity now you know the people who stay with

00:21:05.320 you for like years are the people who are excited about you and want to say kind things to you and

00:21:08.940 it's like mostly a really kind community and like then the toxicity just focuses on the people who

00:21:12.620 you know are on the screen right then and like you've kind of like dot you know you've kind of

00:21:16.480 like moved away from that from that sort of like isauron but um it's it's uh yeah there's no there's

00:21:23.320 no real good way to like ignore it i even like now with my um with my book like i i have stopped

00:21:30.920 reading any online reviews just for the fear that I might encounter a negative one, which I'm sure

00:21:35.760 there are that they're there. I'm sure they're out there, but like, I don't want to know. I just

00:21:38.600 want like the people who are tweeting to me and like sending me a message on Instagram, like

00:21:42.120 those are all positive. Like no one's like sending an Instagram message about like, oh, you're

00:21:45.940 terrible. Right. Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully. Although I will say that there are a few people

00:21:50.720 who have tagged me in bad reviews and I'm like, just, I'm like, I don't care. I'm like, you say

00:21:55.660 what you say, what you want books. I mean, it's just so subjective, but like, I don't need to

00:21:59.820 no. So don't, why are you tagging me? That's exactly, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's

00:22:04.820 unhinged behavior. That's, that's, that's unacceptable. Um, that is, it's just, I think

00:22:08.180 it's just attention seeking unhinged behavior is what it is. Oh, I, I, you know, I guess I aspire

00:22:13.300 to be at the, at the point in my career where there's enough readers where people are doing

00:22:17.040 that, but like, obviously would not like the actual. You wouldn't like it. Don't do it. Don't

00:22:21.020 do it. No, no. Um, I don't, I don't read any reviews anymore. Um, even like the professional

00:22:26.560 ones no i i have my husband reads them and i'm like tell me the nicest thing they said about me

00:22:34.540 right and that's smart the nicest because i was saying like tell me the nice ones

00:22:38.480 to my wife but then when she was telling me ones i'd already heard i was like well wait a second

00:22:42.720 like that means there's no more nice ones that means it's all mean like oh my god the internet

00:22:45.760 is dogpiling me um but the idea is like tell me the nicest thing they said that's really really

00:22:50.280 smart yeah yeah i'm just like i'm like i'm just gonna protect my brain or i won't be able to

00:22:56.180 write any more books, right? I'm just going to constantly question myself and live in a pond of

00:23:02.800 sad, sad misery, honestly. And I don't want to live in that pond. That's the name of my second

00:23:07.000 book, A Pond of Sadness. A Pond of Sadness about a media executive in New York City that lives in

00:23:12.680 Brooklyn on Pineapple Street. No, I mean, I love, actually, that's not true. I hate books set in

00:23:19.600 clinton uh do you think that you learned more from losing than you would have from winning the show

00:23:27.320 oh definitely i that's how i've justified it to myself anyway yeah um i do think that if you win

00:23:34.520 everything broke for you and there's no a level of analysis right and and winners typically think

00:23:39.460 they played an amazing perfect game because everything broke for them nothing went wrong

00:23:44.000 um and they won and like what what kind of regrets can you have you know um but when you lose you

00:23:51.360 just like see microscopically everything that went wrong and you know probably too much actually but

00:23:57.440 you do sort of like really learn and you know this is my second my first time I was like right

00:24:01.940 there I was a runner-up so I do feel like I could I learned a lot you know you focus on what went

00:24:09.680 and then that just went wrong went wrong but like I feel like you have like you see it more you see

00:24:13.540 like more of the randomness that played into it and you know all the chaos and like where things

00:24:18.100 you know where choices you made could have been different choices or like where there was nothing

00:24:21.360 you could do about it yeah yeah exactly i mean i i think that too i mean maybe that means i should

00:24:27.340 read my bad reviews because then maybe i would tweak my books in constructive ways but i'm still

00:24:31.860 not gonna do it i'm i'm not uh how has your life changed since being on survivor the first time

00:24:38.780 i mean it's so funny it's like my before i went on it um i was hesitant to go on because i didn't

00:24:45.840 want to just be like the survivor guy and like i wanted you know like i wanted to write a novel

00:24:49.940 i didn't want to be like you know reality tv contest to write a novel that's exactly who i

00:24:53.700 am like i am i am the survivor guy like that's my identity um you know i podcast about survivor i

00:24:59.140 wrote a book about reality television uh you know that so it's great i love it it's been it's been

00:25:04.900 wonderful i you know it's it's like sort of like what i write about in the book like i've become

00:25:08.800 this sort of like reduced you know caricature of myself and it's like a very comfortable place

00:25:12.440 and also fine great right yeah i mean i learned i will say like the two things i learned like the

00:25:20.420 biggest things i learned from being on survivor were like the second most important was um you

00:25:26.700 know i existed in a really like small bubble right like i i guess my new york media bubble

00:25:31.300 of, you know, where everyone who I

00:25:33.480 knew, like even if they were different from me

00:25:35.400 in terms of their ethnicity or their

00:25:37.380 background, all were

00:25:39.280 like me in a lot of ways in terms of like

00:25:41.180 their outlook and their expectations and what they

00:25:43.400 wanted from the world and what they wanted from their careers.

00:25:45.640 Like we all were very similar

00:25:47.360 to each other. And going on Survivor, I met

00:25:49.260 people who were totally

00:25:51.300 unlike me from not, you know, just culturally

00:25:53.240 but also like what they wanted from the world, what they imagined

00:25:55.340 a day would look like.

00:25:56.960 You know, Coach just wanted to slay the dragons

00:25:59.500 and like that's what he wanted. You know, I met some

00:26:01.300 some delusional people um not saying he was one of them but um maybe um and it was like i just saw

00:26:08.580 i really like saw more of the world in a way that really broadened my understanding of course

00:26:13.040 abstractly you know if you're a reader or if you're someone who's you know a social person

00:26:16.780 you see that there's a lot of people out there but like this really brought it home to me and

00:26:20.000 because of the intimacy of those relationships like how the the whole you know range of humanity

00:26:26.160 And then also, um, has been a great font of, of, uh, characters and, you know, idiosyncrasies

00:26:31.520 for, for, for my writing.

00:26:32.500 But, um, the number one thing I think I took away from it was just like learning how resilient

00:26:38.000 I could be, you know, like after starving, after like making fire in a rainstorm, after

00:26:43.400 being, you know, wildly sick in a rainstorm, I just saw how low I could be brought and

00:26:47.100 then how I could sort of like push through that.

00:26:48.840 And that was really encouraging to me.

00:26:50.660 Like that kind of was like a real source of inner strength for me, like subsequently.

00:26:54.420 Yeah.

00:26:54.940 Yeah.

00:26:55.200 I'll bet it is.

00:26:56.940 I mean, honestly, I have to say there are days when I would just love to be dropped in the wilderness without my phone, without anything.

00:27:06.120 Maybe not naked and afraid or naked and alone or whichever that one is.

00:27:11.020 I don't know.

00:27:12.240 But, yeah, I think, I mean, it's what you said earlier, right?

00:27:14.600 Like we're all kind of longing for this analog dream.

00:27:17.700 And Survivor does, in a way, deliver on that.

00:27:21.060 Yeah.

00:27:21.560 When I came back my first time, I was like, I'm not even going to use my phone anymore.

00:27:24.860 Like, I'm going to, like, just live my life differently.

00:27:27.740 Literally that evening, I was, like, in Times Square at the Virgin Megastore with my phone.

00:27:32.180 That was a sweet, sweet lie that you told yourself.

00:27:34.160 Yeah.

00:27:34.360 Okay, let's take one more quick break.

00:27:36.420 And when we get back, I want to dig into the book.

00:27:46.520 We are back.

00:27:48.060 Tell us the plot of this wonderful book.

00:27:50.260 okay so escape is about a 40 something has been reality tv contestant which you might think is

00:28:00.340 like me a 40 something has been reality tv contestant but he won his first season oh so

00:28:04.520 he's totally different from you very different very different um yeah well it's funny like when

00:28:08.920 i first was writing it i was in my like mid-30s and i put him i made him like 44 and i was like

00:28:13.300 that so he's sort of like an old has-been and now i'm 47 and i'm like ah this young buck he's still

00:28:16.860 got it um but and then so he gets a chance to go back on a reality show another jungle reality show

00:28:24.600 which he sort of blows up his life to pursue because he is desperate to reclaim this kind of

00:28:30.660 vision of himself as a hero that he had from 15 years prior separately this story is also about

00:28:37.300 a reality tv producer who herself has this kind of catastrophic experience that derails her life

00:28:43.100 And she gets a second shot to be a producer on this reality show.

00:28:45.940 So she brings all of her baggage with her as she kind of tries to craft a very neat and tidy narrative out of the chaotic lives in front of her.

00:28:53.520 And they sort of face off in a way to kind of see who really gets to control the storyline of this show.

00:29:00.380 And hilarity ensues, thrills ensue, all of the things that you want.

00:29:05.320 Thank you. I really tried to, like, pack it all in there.

00:29:07.520 You know, I wanted it to be, like, filled with all the things.

00:29:10.740 Well, you were writing this book for so long.

00:29:12.740 how did it change over a decade of writing it well my first draft only had it from the producer's

00:29:18.140 perspective and that was just interesting yeah okay and she you know and as a result it really

00:29:23.980 felt thin because the whole point of the producer is that she really is trying to force these

00:29:28.000 characters into her sort of like neat storyline so she only perceives them as archetypes um but

00:29:34.640 as a result they were kind of flat on the page because like you know it's it was first person

00:29:38.580 so like it was really hard to like get the interiority and then when i started writing

00:29:43.320 the sections from the contestants perspective like suddenly the whole thing came to life because

00:29:46.780 suddenly like not only was that like that really what i know more intimately right which is the

00:29:50.500 contestants perspective so it's kind of crazy that i didn't have that um but it just like that that i

00:29:55.480 could sort of like create this layered narrative where you like see one thing from the producer's

00:29:58.980 perspective and then like you know a similar thing from the contestants perspective you get these

00:30:01.940 different um povs and see how this sort of like influence of this producer who's trying to force

00:30:08.000 them into being their archetypes really kind of changes the contestants why initially steer away

00:30:16.580 from what you knew best the contestant i think i was just a bad man you know i think there was

00:30:22.840 this element too of like as a contestant i'd always observe the producers and there's this

00:30:27.100 sort of like both curiosity and frustration and i was like i want to like be inside one of their

00:30:30.960 heads and see what that's really like you know so i tried to like that's what i tried to do like

00:30:34.320 to gain like empathy and understanding for you know my natural antagonist for my natural predator

00:30:39.660 um i want i wrote a story from their perspective so um and and i also like thought that was a cool

00:30:45.760 idea of like creating a because it because it kind of like did have this tension between

00:30:50.080 a structured story and then like the chaos of the contestants i just like didn't i don't know i

00:30:55.820 didn't like put it together really but the contestants would actually like how crucial

00:31:00.080 that that perspective was right right well i thought you could get it from the interviews

00:31:03.800 that was my goal too i thought like if i could do it through the interviews themselves like kind

00:31:08.520 of like get that sort of like ironic voice it just didn't it didn't work because i needed the

00:31:13.340 interiority right right right right well but you almost never realize that in a first draft

00:31:19.200 until you read it and you're like what is missing what did i oh right i need this other person

00:31:27.860 and like it's really i mean a lot of it too is just like growing as a writer like i'd never

00:31:32.280 written a book or really anything before so i this was my first draft of anything so i was like

00:31:36.900 teaching myself how to write a book as i was writing this book and then i went back and got

00:31:39.820 my mfa and i like suddenly like you know whole world all of a sudden your brain is just like

00:31:44.100 blown open yeah totally uh would you recommend getting an mfa i don't know i mean everybody

00:31:50.760 says like only do it if it's not going to like absolutely financially devastate you right like

00:31:54.300 taking on debt to get an MFA seems like crazy because then you're like pursuing a career or

00:31:58.720 a dream job that has not, not, not famously financially remunerative and, you know, also

00:32:03.740 taking on debt to do it. Um, I was lucky. I met some great peers who are my readers. Everyone says

00:32:09.040 like, that's one of the best things you get from the program. And I had one, a couple of mentors

00:32:12.540 that really did push my writing. Like it was really like, I can see like the pre and post

00:32:17.460 influence, but like, you probably don't have to pay a fortune to get that. You know, there's

00:32:21.360 probably a lot cheaper ways to do to find those people than than going to the MFA yeah I mean I

00:32:26.300 think this all the time because I get I don't have an MFA uh but I get asked the same question

00:32:30.020 about journalism school I went to Columbia and people are like oh my gosh should I go and I'm

00:32:33.920 like I don't know how much money do you have yeah yeah but you do you you you you meet your peers

00:32:41.040 right and your readers and that is super valuable but I'm like but maybe you could also meet them

00:32:46.160 in a coffee shop I don't know the answer and there's a lot of like local writing writing

00:32:50.800 groups i mean honestly i the thing that i most took away is like yes like having people who now

00:32:55.060 who are readers and just the kind of like real like fixation and diligence on craft like you know

00:33:01.180 of course like abstractly i knew like you got to really be in it like when i met other writers and

00:33:04.680 was like oh wow like you guys are in it like we are in it you know we are like reading all the

00:33:08.120 craft books and watching the lectures and like going to the panels and you know constantly

00:33:12.000 thinking about that it really like sort of like like leveled me up in terms of like just how i

00:33:16.660 was thinking about right it does it does i mean it does break open your brain in a different way

00:33:22.420 so yeah i mean i look they're they're wonderful and also very expensive so yeah i went to bread

00:33:29.740 loaf before that was my first entree into it and that was interesting and that's a little different

00:33:34.220 than a traditional program tell people about that because i think i think our audience would be

00:33:37.220 really interested in that yeah so bread loaf is this um it's this like summer like two week or

00:33:42.680 10 day intensive. I don't remember the actual timeframe, but like, um, and it's at Middlebury

00:33:47.200 in Vermont. And, you know, so you get to go to, you know, Vermont and sort of stay in the cabin

00:33:52.560 for a week and a half. And again, like that obviously has its own challenges if you're,

00:33:56.820 you know, a working person. Uh, but it's, you know, maybe, maybe easier than four semesters

00:34:01.220 of, of, of, of a variety camp. So it's also like, it has a cost associated, but again, like there,

00:34:06.420 I think that they have like some financial aid packages and again, like cheaper than an MFA

00:34:11.060 program. But it's a very similar thing where they bring in a bunch of writers who give you craft

00:34:17.060 talks. You have a workshop, you have a workshop leader. And that was sort of like my immersion

00:34:22.480 into this like real focus on writing. I learned a lot through Bread Loaf. And like some of those

00:34:28.020 craft talks are stay with me. And some of those bonds, honestly, are as deep as the MFA bonds.

00:34:33.360 You know, it's a really intense program. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think it's always

00:34:38.220 awesome whenever you get writers and also readers together in a room. I'm going to loosely tie this

00:34:44.020 to Survivor, but I think we're all hungry for community, right? We're all hungry to gather in

00:34:48.040 real life with people again. And we're watching the contestants on your show do that. And I think

00:34:54.800 a lot of us are like, oh my gosh, I would love to be with even the terrible people. I would love to

00:34:59.740 get to just do this in real life. But I think the cool thing about Survivor is that it truly brings

00:35:05.600 fans together i mean the number of survivor watch parties and then podcasts and conversations i miss

00:35:12.820 water cooler talk now that streaming exists because i feel like everyone is watching all

00:35:17.960 different things all the time but the survivor fandom is still all watching the same thing at

00:35:22.380 the same time yeah if you if you're like a survivor fan and you go on any social media platform at you

00:35:28.260 know eight o'clock on wednesday nights like it's that same passion i mean if you go to a live

00:35:32.460 viewing it's like being at a sporting event like people are erupting and cheers at the end of the

00:35:36.740 immunity challenge you know it is electric and it's an amazing community like i've had an incredible

00:35:41.780 experience and that's honestly one of the other best things i've taken away from um survivor it's

00:35:45.320 just like this huge community of fans and it's like somehow like being a survivor fan also has

00:35:50.940 a lot of overlap with other like interesting things like that i care about like there's a lot

00:35:55.480 of i mean obviously there's a lot of like other social strategy game you know fans in that there's

00:35:59.220 lot of readers in that which was interesting to me was like when i was first um when i was uh i

00:36:03.540 went out with my book a lot of the rejections i got were from people saying uh we don't think

00:36:09.600 the reality tv audience is going to buy a book that oh my gosh wow they were so wrong yeah like

00:36:15.380 literally like i was i mean it was i don't want to like toot my own horn here but it was like

00:36:19.620 an instant bestseller because of the reality tv audience you know like because of how much they

00:36:24.140 supported me but also like they're reading it you know it's not just like they bought the book and

00:36:27.620 are like okay that's on my on my merch shelf like i'm getting like you know i get notes every day

00:36:31.520 from from fans of the of the show who are reading it so um it is it is a there's something about the

00:36:37.980 survivor audience that really is like they're like it's a fascinating show and they're like

00:36:42.800 interested in the social element they're interested in the strategic element like there's like a level

00:36:45.900 of like you know depth to the viewer i think oh absolutely absolutely oh my gosh that's just so

00:36:51.580 classic publishing to me i mean as someone who has been writing books for 15 years they're like

00:36:56.100 I don't know is the reality television audience also going to read books it's trashy like and

00:37:02.860 we're classy I mean maybe maybe some of those rejections were that it was just an excuse you

00:37:06.580 know so I maybe they just didn't like the book sure maybe whatever um well I like the book I

00:37:11.060 like the book uh we are carrying the book right now in the bookcase which is our mobile pop-up

00:37:16.920 bookstore and people are people are really loving it so thank you thank you for writing it my husband

00:37:23.240 just started it actually oh cool thank you very much all right thank him very much yeah yeah well

00:37:27.640 he doesn't read a lot of fiction so so i will let you know how this how this goes for him um i'm

00:37:33.140 always excited when he picks up a book at our bookstore that we own together as a man that

00:37:36.960 doesn't read fiction but i want to accept a book and he's like this looks good and i'm like oh

00:37:41.300 great that's the dream oh my gosh thank you this is like you're making my day wow that is the dream

00:37:45.600 well you know the cool thing i will tell you because we pop up in a lot of breweries

00:37:49.620 So we get men.

00:37:50.760 And I think a lot of men don't always walk into an independent bookstore.

00:37:54.160 It might feel intimidating.

00:37:55.640 We are not intimidating after you've had two hefty IPAs.

00:37:58.500 And so we actually, like, actually, I've been able to recommend books to male readers.

00:38:05.000 And they've come back and been like, oh, my, I loved that.

00:38:07.140 I never would have gotten it before.

00:38:08.340 So it's very, that is very, very exciting.

00:38:10.440 I'm just solving the male loneliness crisis one book at a time.

00:38:13.540 I, listen, I mean, that was sort of one of my dreams for, I mean, obviously, everybody

00:38:17.000 has a dream, right?

00:38:17.500 But like then it would reach like the male, the lost male reader, you know, and I've tried to go to like various male reader.

00:38:23.240 I've tried to like go to platforms where like, you know, you know, men congregate, you know, like a male girl, like media, media, media stuff.

00:38:29.000 But like, you know, it's, it's, it is, you know, I, a lot of men are writing, you know, that I seem to be enjoying it.

00:38:34.780 So hopefully that, hopefully that's true for your husband.

00:38:37.200 Yeah.

00:38:37.520 Men and women.

00:38:39.100 All people.

00:38:40.040 All people.

00:38:40.940 Yes.

00:38:41.620 Wonderful.

00:38:42.160 Thank you so much, Stephen, for being here.

00:38:44.060 This was awesome.

00:38:45.120 You are the best.

00:38:45.780 Your book's the best.

00:38:46.740 Thank you.

00:38:47.040 This was a real joy.

00:38:47.920 Thanks so much for your time.

00:39:17.040 You

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - March 12, 2026

How Reality TV Changed How We Consume Stories with Survivor's Stephen Fishbach

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