00:04:56.000Oh, no, I think it's in many ways the beginning.
00:04:58.140I mean, choosing an agent is a really important part of the process because that's really going to be sort of your representative out there in the world of publishing.
00:05:06.480And you just want to make sure that in each step of the process, including the acquisition, that sort of everybody is on the same page in terms of their vision for the project, right?
00:05:18.680And I think that's really important for a number of reasons because we're working with subjective art where it could go in many different directions.
00:05:26.440and we're working with fiction you know so you can make things up that are completely you know
00:05:32.520somebody says oh you should add this element but I think one of the things is being aware of the
00:05:37.260marketplace and where your project fits into the marketplace which I think we really did last year
00:05:42.520with people's projects in terms of really getting their query letters sharpened and their ability
00:05:47.380to sort of talk about their project in relation to comp titles in relation to what already exists
00:05:53.740there as a as a touchstone to you know to their work whether thematically or subject or even
00:05:59.860place related so i think being able to be a fiction writer and do your diligence on what
00:06:07.220has come before what's out there now that you can be able to package yourself the more that you're
00:06:13.220able to self-advocate i think the better off you are as an author especially these days totally
00:06:18.780Totally. So I want to go through all of these steps. Our quickie version, right? Like the
00:06:22.820much longer version that will be much more helpful. But we want to I want to do the quickie
00:06:26.780version here. But first, tell everyone when and where the Adriatic Writers Conference is going
00:06:33.060to be in 2026. Yes. So exciting. So we are back on the island of Lusin, which even people who
00:06:38.740have been to Croatia have probably not been to the island of Lusin. It's actually Croatia's
00:06:43.680I Love Wellness. It's gorgeous. I mean, Joe can like speak to how gorgeous it is. And I mean,
00:06:49.540you finished a book there. So it's obviously very inspiring, great for writers. A lot of natural
00:06:55.100beauty. We're lucky to be there. May 24th through 30th in 2026, which should be also lovely weather.
00:07:01.940So we were lucky the last time, too. We really were. I mean, I didn't know what I was getting
00:07:06.520into. You totally blind asked me to do this. I totally did. I'm so glad you trusted me.
00:07:12.420i did and for something in my gut like again like women's intuition right it's important
00:07:17.380and i was like yeah i'll do it and then all of a sudden seven months later i'm like i'm getting
00:07:21.060on a plane to croatia this week i don't know what's gonna happen and i'm a person that's
00:07:25.920traveled yeah places and i did travel writing yeah i did travel writing as did you and i got
00:07:31.400to losheen and i'm like holy mother of god this place is amazing it's so it's special it's a
00:07:40.140special place, which is why we're doing it all again. So I'll put the link to apply to the
00:07:45.920writing conference in show notes. It's a small, intimate group. It truly is because I think
00:07:51.860that everyone benefits from being able to give each other feedback and having one-on-one time
00:07:57.740with the instructors. So if it's a thing you want to do, definitely get your application in as early
00:08:03.020as possible. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of, we had a great group last year. I mean,
00:08:07.100You can, you know, the testimonial section of the website also speaks to that. But I think, you know, people's projects move forward in really meaningful ways. I think we were amazing co-teachers. I can't wait to teach with you again this year. And I also think that there's, you know, an aspect of people having developed projects.
00:08:25.560So, you know, I think there's a number of things that set this conference apart. One of the things, obviously, being the focus on the practical aspects of building a writing career in the business side of things, but also the fact that we're really keeping the group small and we're also keeping it very, I would say the bar is high in terms of like the level that we'd love for the projects to come in.
00:08:47.760people really dedicated to producing a novel and getting it out there. So we want to see people
00:08:53.820published and have people's stories, have books, have Adriatic Writers Conference books that were
00:08:59.740finished there. Exactly. It would be exciting. Books out in the world. So yeah, so that link
00:09:04.720will be in show notes. Now, again, I want to talk about this, about how to sell your book and the
00:09:09.980nitty gritty of that, because it was just, it was, I think one of the biggest questions that we got
00:09:15.540asked at the conference. It's one of the biggest questions that I get asked by people. I did a
00:09:20.340book event this weekend at the Collingswood Book Festival, and it's a big question that I get asked.
00:09:24.480So let's start with the basics. Some people that came to the conference already had an agent,
00:09:30.880but most didn't. And so can you explain the querying process? I think a lot of people don't
00:09:37.180understand what querying an agent means. I sometimes liken it to sorority rush, but
00:09:42.980like dumber um so can you explain what is querying i would say that like the there are a lot of0.52
00:09:52.260resources out there on on queries query letters you know how to structure a query letter you know0.90
00:09:58.900and i think one of the things that is really useful to do is when you are ready to query
00:10:03.660to get a subscription to publishers marketplace it is 25 i think it's 25 dollars a month so but
00:10:10.240You don't need it forever. You just need it for, you know, being able to look up agents.
00:10:15.100Manuscript wishlist is another great resource to be able to, you know, see what agents are looking for.
00:10:21.260And ultimately what you want to do when you go to Publishers Marketplace in advance of querying is to look up agents that are obviously in your realm of whichever area of fiction, whether that genre or collection of short stories or whatever.
00:10:36.140and you want to see what their recent sales are because that's going to give you a really
00:10:39.660good idea of if that agent might be a fit for your work and also again thematically or
00:10:46.000just anything that you can pick out of the descriptions after you've done your research
00:10:51.640online about this agent you'll be able to like see their recent sales and see if that's in the
00:10:56.740wheelhouse that you see yourself being in with their client list and the query letter i i i went
00:11:03.220over this a lot with people at the conference. It's a business document. It's don't be creative.
00:11:08.100There's an actual format to a query letter. And you definitely should, I think, especially now
00:11:14.020with the amount of writers who are querying and just what I know of friends that are querying
00:11:19.280right now, you know, you want to get as granular and detailed as possible in that query letter.
00:11:24.860You want to make it as punchy as you can in terms of premise that really grabs them. And you
00:11:30.000definitely want to start out with something that's personalized, whether you have a referral
00:11:34.520through someone or whether you saw them on a podcast or saw them in Poets and Writers or
00:11:41.100something that shows that you've done your research or a recent sale that, you know,
00:11:46.040might have a similarity to your book. It's really important. I think that aspect of personalization,
00:11:52.480night, I think that would have a much better chance of you going on to the next phase of
00:11:59.580them actually reading whatever sample pages you send. And the other thing I would say about
00:12:03.980querying is every agency has different specifications, different requirements. So
00:12:09.280some will say, send the first 10 pages or send the, they're really specific. It's like,
00:12:14.380or just send the query. And then if we're interested, then we'll ask for pages or there
00:12:19.300are different um sets of of requirements and follow those absolutely to the t because i think
00:12:27.300if it's one thing and and joe you've done editing i've done editing it's like if people don't follow
00:12:32.420directions you're like well that's you know that's that's like sign number one it is like
00:12:37.120weeding people out and the example that i like to give is those rock star writers yeah where they
00:12:45.360used to specify like a certain color of M&M's and it wasn't that they wanted that color of M&M's.
00:12:51.260So they wanted to make sure they were reading the directions. Yes, exactly. And it's, you know,
00:12:56.960just a terrible, a terrible thing, but an understandable thing that, you know, agents
00:13:01.460and editors are actually looking for reasons to reject a manuscript. They're looking for reasons
00:13:06.540to reject you because they are so overwhelmed. So you just want to do everything in your favor
00:13:11.900that you can do. And following directions is number one. So if you're like, oh, but my scene
00:13:17.140really needs that extra half page, don't do it. Just have it cut off. Exactly. Exactly. And,
00:13:23.800you know, the amazing thing is I also get asked a lot like, hey, can you hop on the phone or have
00:13:28.320a coffee and talk to me about I'm just about to look for agents. And then even the most basic
00:13:33.700questions, I think a lot of people still don't know. They're like, oh, yeah, a friend's agent
00:13:38.520said that i could have a call with them and i'm like what did they sell and they're like i don't
00:13:42.540know and i'm like girl yeah girl before you get on the phone like you need to look that up look
00:13:47.860it up publisher's marketplace and a lot of people are like well what is publisher's marketplace and
00:13:51.380what do they offer i mean i think this is such basic information that more people need to know
00:13:57.640and need to be able to access because it does still feel really like insular yeah i mean you
00:14:03.700know but it isn't now i feel like so much of this is searchable you know a simple google search will
00:14:09.360pull up a whole lot of stuff um and you know poets and writers is a great magazine to get a
00:14:15.000subscription subscription to i think they even have um i haven't looked in a couple of years but
00:14:19.820they did have like an agents a whole thing about agents and you know so there there are so many
00:14:25.520resources and i think the online version was very affordable it was like five or ten dollars you
00:14:30.940know. So there are resources out there. I think it's it can feel overwhelming. But I think once
00:14:37.480you start getting a sense of how these different publications and platforms operate, it becomes
00:14:44.020easier to navigate. Totally. Totally. So you write these query letters and then you wait and wait
00:14:51.860and wait. And then there's there's so many so much waiting. So there's there's so much waiting.
00:14:56.420let's take a quick break. And when we get back, we're going to talk about what happens
00:15:00.680when an agent actually gets back to you.
00:15:11.300Okay. So you send out these query letters and it is like sending out helium balloons into the
00:15:17.440ether, like we all used to do when we were in grade school. Okay. Where we were like releasing
00:15:21.620balloons to save the whales or something. And they're just killing the whales. So you're
00:15:26.340waiting and waiting and waiting. But then like a good outcome is that agents start reaching out to
00:15:32.280you and they say, I want to see your manuscript. What happens after that? So, you know, I've heard
00:15:38.600different strategies in terms of how to tier agents, how to, you know, and I think one thing
00:15:43.840you do want to do is you never just want to reach out to one or two agents at a time. You want to
00:15:48.080kind of cluster a group. I've heard 15 is a good number, you know, 15 agents with those personalized
00:15:55.220query letters. And the reason being is that you tend to learn a lot from these different phases
00:16:01.240of querying because you can get like the standard form response. I've spoken to a lot of people who
00:16:08.000have been through this process. I myself have been through this process. And if you get a
00:16:12.800personalized rejection, there might be something in there that's worth looking at. I believe in
00:16:17.380the power of threes. So I actually redid my opening after receiving like three similar rejections.
00:16:23.040And then I feel like that's when things started to percolate for me. So, you know, it's something where another reason that you should do at least 15 in, you know, in your batch and some reach agents. It's sort of like college. I don't have a college age child.
00:16:40.780So I would say a REACH agent would be like, these are my dream agents that it would be very difficult to probably get through the levels of their assistant.
00:16:51.740And then, you know, the top agents, I would say, heads of big agencies.
00:16:58.100But something that might happen and you never know, I've heard lots of stories from different writers.
00:17:03.300An agent may, if it's not for them, pass it along to another agent in the same agency.
00:17:09.140So I've heard that happen. And the other reason that you want to apply widely is that if you do get a bite, if you do get somebody saying like, hey, I'd like to have your full manuscript, you can then go to those other agents that you've queried and say, hey, I have a request for a full.
00:17:26.660And then you go back to them and then that gets them excited like, oh, somebody saw potential in this project. And it's probably going to get read quicker, I would say.
00:17:35.700Yes, because I don't think that you can underestimate how much this industry loves competition.
00:18:03.660Well, you know, what's funny is it's sort of like nobody wants to miss out on anything. Right. And so and also I think there's that innate sort of human competitiveness that comes out. So by going back to all of those agents, if you get, you know, a request for a full are essentially creating your own, you know, scarcity techniques for this.
00:18:27.140obviously don't do that if somebody didn't request for a full but also same if you get an
00:18:31.340offer from an agent you can be like hey i i received an offer i need to let them know in
00:18:36.000two weeks and then those agents need to read your manuscript in two weeks to be able to be
00:18:41.100that competition or potential competition exactly exactly although i always wonder if like people
00:18:49.140like secretly just claim they had an offer to try to you know maybe that i maybe they do i don't
00:18:55.940know I've never done that but I've never done that I just like to say the things out loud that
00:19:00.000should stay in your head so I'm like people do that so and hopefully you're gonna get on the
00:19:04.740phone with a few different agents hopefully the ones you like an agent is your business partner
00:19:10.180and I can't say this over and over again enough they are the person who is going to make you
00:19:15.740money they are the person who is going to advocate for you when you don't like your cover and you're
00:19:19.940not going to like your cover. They're the person who is going to get you your book deal in the
00:19:26.520first place. You want to make sure that they have great relationships and that they're passionate
00:19:31.040about your project. Yeah. And so I think there's some questions you can ask. You should, I don't
00:19:38.300want anyone just to feel lucky that they got a phone call. Okay. And that's what I try to say.
00:19:42.520I'm like, I know you're going to feel lucky that like someone is willing to get on the phone with
00:19:46.060you. You still have to treat this like a business interview. Yeah. No, I think that goes back to
00:19:52.440the editor stage, which we're not there yet, but really having not just who you feel is a very
00:19:57.780excited advocate for your project, but also someone that is going to shepherd it through
00:20:02.600the next phases of its life, which a book has, you know, different phases of its life. And I
00:20:09.260I think you, like you said, choosing the cover and obviously launch and how it's marketed, marketing and publicity.
00:20:19.100So you really want somebody who's going to advocate for you and really be on your team, like your best team member.
00:20:28.740And so what do you think some questions that you should be asking an agent are?
00:20:31.500You know, what's so interesting is, I don't know if you remember, Lydia Hillier has that post with such great questions.
00:20:38.620such great let's put that in the show notes yeah that's that's such a that's such a great yeah that
00:20:43.560that was in our our awc whatsapp i think ultimately some of them are just basic questions
00:20:49.000we're going to want to talk to them about what editors which houses they see this at like why
00:20:55.360and they have intel that you don't as as an author so for example they're out doing meetings
00:21:01.440and talking to editors and they may recently have learned that so and so likes i don't know i'm just
00:21:08.120making this up like Croatia and like cheese. And I just wrote not just but my debut novel is about
00:21:14.600Croatia and cheese. It's like you you may then be like, oh, well, maybe you should send to them
00:21:19.040because they have this interest that isn't publicized anywhere. Right. I mean, there are
00:21:23.520definitely interests of editors and agents alike that you can some of which you can look up. But
00:21:28.660a good agent is going to have that knowledge of really the sweet spots of the editors that you're
00:21:33.920going to be submitting to. Exactly. Exactly. So once you have this conversation, you may get
00:21:41.000offers from different agents. Yeah. One thing that I like to tell people, again, because this is not
00:21:46.360always obvious, is that you're not paying an agent anything until they sell a project for you. So any
00:21:52.160agent that is approaching you and asking you to pay them a fee is not a good agent. No, no, no,
00:21:59.140to know. No, absolutely not. You should not be paying anything and you should, you know, I think
00:22:04.140ultimately agents, like I said, good agents know, they should know more than you about who you're
00:22:11.000submitting to. But I also think you want to know what kind of relationship you're going to have
00:22:15.040with your agent. Is this a person that just wants kind of like the final draft that they're kind of
00:22:20.720ready to go on sub with? Is this someone that will do some edits with you or think about your
00:22:26.980project in a sort of dev editor way before you go out on submission? You just said two words that
00:22:33.000I think some people might not know. Oh, sorry. Yes. Dev editor, developmental editor, and going
00:22:39.800out on sub. Okay. Yes. So going out on submission. So when you do have an agent, when you sign with
00:22:46.140an agent, they will eventually, with your collaboration or not, that's also a good
00:22:50.940question to ask is, how does it work when we get ready to go on submission? So do they do any
00:22:57.260editing on the actual book? Is it sort of up to you to get the final product pretty much in order
00:23:03.600before they go to editors? And then, you know, you'll have a list of editors at different
00:23:08.960publishing houses that you will, your book will be going out to. And so you want to know how that
00:23:15.200process works. Some agents will say, do you want to know the rejections when they come in?
00:23:21.400Some authors don't want to know that at all. Some authors want to be appraised of every single step
00:23:27.000of the process. So I think like with any relationship, getting the sort of grounding
00:23:33.460clear and the framework clear of how you'd like to work together, how they work, how they like
00:23:40.160to work, making sure that's a feeling that you feel would be best for your career. I think that's
00:23:47.440really crucial. Another thing that I like to tell people is that I do think we used to live in a
00:23:54.740world where you could have an imperfect or unfinished manuscript go to an agent. And now
00:24:04.000I think you have to go to agents with the absolute most perfect version of the manuscript that you
00:24:11.180can have. Yes. Have your best chance. You're getting one shot at this. And people, a lot of
00:24:18.380people, there are many agents out there who will do dev edits, developmental editing, who will
00:24:24.340essentially pre-edit you before it gets sold to an editor. But I would say the majority don't.
00:24:30.160Yeah, I agree with you on that. And I think you do want to, you know, come out with your very best product, you know, just right out of the gate. And, you know, so I think one of the things that I that I've, you know, thought a lot about in this process is, you know, get as many people who are writing group people who are able to help you.
00:24:53.220It doesn't mean that you need to hire a developmental editor prior to submitting to agents.
00:24:57.900But I was just thinking back to the 15 pages for Adriatic Writers Conference that we had
00:25:03.480people submit and they said, oh, but that's not very much in our product.
00:25:06.600We have like 300 something page books.
00:25:08.940But the amount that I think participants got out of workshopping those first 15 pages was
00:34:13.040We don't want to keep going. We don't want to keep going. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so you're going to get on these calls with publishers. And again, it's very similar to the agent call. Think about it like they're not just interviewing you. Because in fact, at this point, you're kind of in the power seat. You're the one interviewing them. So do not just count yourself lucky that you got here. Really think about who is going to be the best for your career in this situation.
00:34:38.320Yes, absolutely. So I'm thinking to a story from an author who got three different offers and three different editors at three different publishing houses wanted to take it in three different directions. Right. And, you know, it was just so interesting because that would have been really three different books at the end of the day.
00:35:01.820So, you know, really thinking about doing a gut check, like you always say, Joe, I think it's great to do a gut check and say, like, is this the book that I really feel like I want to be out in the world?
00:35:13.680number one is this the book that i um sort of set out will this make the book stronger like what
00:35:20.800they're suggesting if if there are major things that they're suggesting that you you know may not
00:35:27.240agree with talk it and see if that might be something that you could end up being okay with
00:35:34.820but also be aware that like exactly you you are in the driver's seat at that point
00:35:39.240you're in the driver's seat and you should feel very comfortable asking the hard questions um do
00:35:46.660you see this book as a lead title how how much marketing and publicity effort will be allocated
00:35:54.120towards this book and what kinds of marketing and publicity effort because we know that these days
00:35:59.460publicity does not necessarily sell as many books anymore so like how much money are you going to
00:36:05.380put behind Amazon marketing, behind social media marketing. It is okay to ask those kinds of
00:36:11.000questions because your livelihood depends on it. I love that we're getting into this, Joe,
00:36:15.020because I feel like this is one of the things that came up in Adriatic Writers Conference last year.
00:36:20.320And, you know, not so much in the context of how much publishing houses are going to once you,
00:36:25.820you know, have an offer from a publisher or an editor to a publishing house. But I do think
00:36:30.720it's something that is interesting in the sense that, as I understand it, that's not written into
00:36:36.740contracts, though, right? So it's sort of like a verbal discussion that you'd have in terms of
00:36:41.820how they're seeing this position. How many resources are they going to throw at this,
00:36:46.400right, at your novel? Exactly, exactly. Although, I mean, frankly, and this is something you can
00:36:51.780talk to your agent about, you can write anything into a contract. That's your crystal contract.
00:36:55.920But it generally isn't too much money.
00:37:24.160And I think, you know, more and more, it's it's all a question of, you know, sort of what what hits in terms of in terms of, you know, what's going to be generating sales?
00:37:34.220I think everybody's trying to still figure out whatever magic for there is one.
00:37:39.560But, you know, but for each book, what is going to sort of make it into the best it can possibly be?
00:37:47.260Right. And you definitely with both your agent and your editor want them collaborating on what they think that best strategy is, because it may be that, you know, that book is going to be, you know, they're going to say we need to allocate more marketing dollars for the Amazon marketing versus, you know, or, hey, let's really push on those like indie bookstore connections for this one and really get a word of mouth thing going.
00:38:13.180I mean, there are so many different strategies.
00:38:16.360You know, this one needs to be in this publication.
00:38:20.000Book reviews are shrinking, obviously.
00:40:01.600they were not the one that offered the most but i think you want you want an editor you're like
00:40:05.960this imprint has staying power this editor doesn't seem like they're going anywhere anytime soon
00:40:10.900because editors jump around and then your book gets screwed your book gets totally screwed if
00:40:14.780they leave okay every time i've heard some horror stories every time okay so and the end you want
00:40:20.100them to buy not just your next book but your next five books so you really want to feel nurtured
00:40:26.200I know, and I keep going back to like having your best advocates, right? You really want your
00:40:34.460best advocates and your best team. Gene Kwok always says like the chain of awesome. I love
00:40:42.480that. I'm like, yes, the chain of awesome that extends in your whole people that are shepherding
00:40:48.500this book through various aspects of the process, which again, as we've heard, is quite a number
00:40:56.180of of steps that that it takes to get a book out into the world and then obviously all of the
00:41:02.340post-publicity once it's published exactly exactly so that's it that's how you sell a book my friends
00:41:08.000we're gonna we'll do a part two of this but i think that was a really nice overview
00:41:11.500yeah that's fantastic yeah and i think lydia's questions were i was like oh i wish i would
00:41:16.380explain who lydia is because we've mentioned lydia many times yeah so lydia is a croatian
00:41:21.940author she she her debut um came out in july slanting towards the sea which i recommend all
00:41:28.580the time i've recommended on this podcast when people ask me what i'm reading i tell them it's
00:41:31.840that because this is an amazing book that i don't think got enough marketing and publicity i agree
00:41:36.580i agree and um so i had initially reached out because my editor actually so my book uh you
00:41:43.200know the cheesemaker's daughter is actually set on an island in croatia i write a lot about croatia
00:41:47.700So she had said, oh, you should, you know, reach out to her.
00:41:50.940I happen to be in her city of where she lives, Zadar, because the island where I set my book is literally like less than it's basically an hour from where she lives.
00:42:02.320So we got to meet up in person and I gave her a galley and we connected.
00:42:06.200And so I thought it would be amazing to invite her to the conference, to Adriatic Writers Conference, because, you know, a lot of the participants were basically debut authors or, you know, in the process of hoping to prepare their manuscript for publication, whether or not they had an agent.
00:42:25.560they were like well along with their projects so um so she was able to speak to sort of when she
00:42:31.540was in the throes of it um because that conference was it was last may um you know sort of the two
00:42:37.360months ramping up it's a pretty intense time as you're doing all of these you know podcasts and
00:42:43.460interviews and different things to spread the word about your book um so she was really able to
00:42:48.620talk about um and she's also a professional book coach so she was able to do a master class in
00:42:54.360revision, but also talk about the questions that she asked agents. And I think she said she had
00:42:59.940three offers from three different agents and how she, you know, went through the process of choosing
00:43:05.240hers. Yeah. And we're going to put her newsletter in the feed. I'll put a link towards slanting
00:43:13.280towards the sea. I'm going to put a link to Kristen's book, The Cheesemaker's Daughter,
00:43:17.660which is wonderful too. And also your application process, the application link for Adriatic
00:43:23.080Writers Conference. Yes. And we're so excited. I feel like it was just such a dream to have the
00:43:28.720inaugural conference and be teaching with you and just have, I felt like our group was really meant
00:43:34.820to be there last year. It was. It was. Yeah. No, everything about it was perfect. This year is
00:43:39.120going to be even better. We've got Andy Bartz, my friend Andy Bartz coming. So exciting. Who's been
00:43:45.280on this podcast, incredible thriller writer. And yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be a good
00:43:50.680time and we'll be there eating a lot of cheese and drinking a lot of wine with you we will be
00:43:54.740and you know we we will potentially be jumping in the sea we'll see you did last in the sea
00:43:59.900i did not i did not i was like oh it's a little chilly for me but i did scuba diving in the sea
00:44:05.520i know you did that was amazing i was very active on this trip you were there's a picture of joe
00:44:11.740on the website riding a bike so i rode a bike around the island it should be inspiring yes it
00:44:16.840should be it should be like not only will you will you get your book ready to publish but uh
00:44:21.700it's also like joe piazza boot camp is here exactly yeah i think we'll see if i get as active
00:44:27.180as you this year yeah and granted this is after i had a lot of croatian wine too so i mean that
00:44:32.700admirable it was very admirable very admirable um all right amazing i loved having you here
00:44:37.300thank you so much for being here kristin thank you so much joe great to talk to you as always