Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Is Your Kid an Asshole or Just a Kid？ With Melinda Wenner Moyer

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00:00:52.600 Have you ever found yourself scrolling past

00:00:55.260 a perfectly lit Instagram reel of a mom

00:00:57.740 who's gently correcting her tantruming toddler using a soothing tone and all of her gentle

00:01:03.260 parenting words. And when you look at that, do you feel a twinge of guilt and shame for a moment

00:01:09.380 and then snap back to reality and think, you know, it takes gentle kids to be a gentle parent

00:01:17.040 and my kids, they're not gentle people. They're not. I mean, look, I genuinely believe that 90%

00:01:26.420 of parenting influencers are the worst thing to happen to parents in about 20 years. Yeah,

00:01:31.600 yeah, yeah, I'm just gonna say it. And that's why I want to talk to an actual science journalist

00:01:35.960 and a woman that I call a parenting sanity saver, Melinda Wenner Moyer. Melinda is the author of the

00:01:43.240 best selling book, How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes. And her brand new book, Hello, Cruel 0.97

00:01:47.740 World, How to Parent with Hope in an Era of Anxiety and Doom is coming out next week. In both,

00:01:54.760 she applies real science and actual nuance to the minefield that is modern parenting in the digital

00:02:00.980 age. In this episode, we're talking about a lot of things, a lot, and I'm going to admit some

00:02:06.280 things about my parenting, some things that I am not proud of. No, but we are getting into what the

00:02:11.800 data actually says about screen time. And spoiler, it's not destroying your child's soul. We're

00:02:17.400 talking about how to discipline without becoming a dictator or a doormat. And why your kid being

00:02:22.440 kind of a jerk does not mean that you've failed as a parent. We also get into media literacy, 0.99

00:02:28.440 modeling rest in relaxation, and why letting your kids get bored out of their skull on a Sunday

00:02:34.080 afternoon might just be the best gift you can give them. This episode is funny, smart, packed

00:02:39.820 with research, and it might just help you stop spiraling about the fact that your eight-year-old

00:02:44.380 gave you the finger at school pickup. Let's get into it.

00:02:52.440 melinda i hear your voice in my head a lot i've got to tell you as a mom mostly like when i'm 0.96

00:03:00.140 doing something and i'm like i just want to raise a kid who's not an asshole what would what would 0.99

00:03:04.940 melinda tell me to do to make sure this kid doesn't become an asshole i'm very i don't know 0.96

00:03:11.640 how to feel about you hearing my voice i hope it's like a a nice voice i hope i'm not like 0.98

00:03:15.840 no no no you're not you're not naggy you're not naggy at all you're not dr becky you're not dr 0.99

00:03:20.820 Becky okay all right well I love hearing your voice in my head uh and I mean your advice is 0.99

00:03:26.780 just it's rational that's the thing I only want parenting advice that like is for normal freaking

00:03:32.220 people because there's so much out there that I'm like no who actually does that I'm I'm so

00:03:39.340 confused by who actually gentle parents yes because I think in order to gentle parent you

00:03:43.960 have to have gentle children and my children are not gentle people yeah I think you have to have 0.99

00:03:49.820 alien children to do some of this stuff. They're not real. They're not real children. No, exactly. 1.00

00:03:55.320 Exactly. It's really, yeah. So, I mean, what is the number one question that you get asked from

00:04:00.800 parents? Oh, that's a really good question. I get asked a lot about dealing with technology

00:04:08.800 and social media. Yes. Right. Right. I mean, I think everyone is so confused about it. And

00:04:15.160 mine aren't even that old yet. And we're already there. We're there because they have the screens

00:04:20.480 in school. My seven-year-old boy already wants an Apple Watch and a smartphone and all the things.

00:04:27.660 So what is your advice on technology, screens, all of those things?

00:04:32.420 Yeah. I mean, I would say my advice is often very nuanced. And that's hard for some people

00:04:40.580 because they want like, you know, something really simple, and really clear. And I guess

00:04:46.960 what I would say is, there's, there's so much fear mongering about screens and tech, like there's so

00:04:54.320 there's so many feelings. It's like the most polarizing moralizing issue that I feel like

00:04:58.740 I've ever encountered in writing about parenting, where people have really strong opinions,

00:05:02.880 experts have really strong opinions. But when you look at the research, which is what I do when I'm

00:05:07.800 confused about something as I just dive in and spend like, you know, God knows how much time

00:05:12.300 like reading all the studies, you find that it's a much more nuanced picture that like the people

00:05:17.820 who are saying, Oh my God, we need to be so terrified, throw your kids' phones into the

00:05:22.600 ocean, you know, don't ever let them touch them. Like those, those takes are alarmist based on

00:05:29.380 what the research actually says. But also like, it's, it's, it's also not true to say, well,

00:05:34.220 enough. It's fine. Your kid's never going to possibly be exposed to any harmful things on

00:05:39.200 social media or have any negative effects from it. That's also not true. But I guess I would say

00:05:43.860 that what we do know is that the fear and the guilt that we are kind of led to feel if we spend

00:05:54.360 any time on social media, like looking at the gentle parenting accounts and other parenting

00:05:57.860 accounts, that's not helpful. And it's really not super warranted. Yes, we should be concerned. Yes,

00:06:04.080 we should like talk to our kids about this. But the idea that we need to be totally terrified,

00:06:09.560 and that we know that phones is the singular cause of all the mental health woes in tweens

00:06:14.320 and teens like that, that's not supported by the science. Yeah, what does what exactly does

00:06:18.860 the science say? And you used to be a science journalist, right? So like this, this is this

00:06:24.040 is your jam. Yeah, I mean, I still am a science journalist. And I, I've looked at this, I actually

00:06:31.000 used to say that controversies like scientific controversies were my beat because like I love

00:06:35.340 them and I love digging into like really gnarly topics. And so this is such a fun beat. It's hard,

00:06:40.620 but it's fun. So the science is really, really hard to interpret because it's really hard to

00:06:45.540 do studies that actually tease out cause and effect on how screens and tech and social media

00:06:50.760 are affecting kids. Because you can't like ethically, you can't design like a proper,

00:06:55.900 randomized controlled trial with tweens and teens, it's not ethical. If you think that social media

00:07:03.240 could have negative effects, you can't just expose kids to it and say, let's see what happens to them

00:07:08.760 and hope everything's okay. It's not going to fly with the ethics boards. So researchers have

00:07:14.940 to look at these observational studies, which is often just asking tweens and teens or young

00:07:21.480 adults at a single point in time, how depressed do you feel? How anxious do you feel? And how

00:07:25.880 much do you use your screens? And those are just not useful studies because you can find

00:07:31.320 correlations that, oh yeah, teens who use screens eight hours a day are more anxious than teens who

00:07:37.840 don't. But do we know that the screens are causing that? We don't. And there could be a lot of other

00:07:41.540 things going on. And it's just, it's like really, really, really hard to get at the answer in the

00:07:46.160 research. And we find that there have been some interesting approaches to trying to tease out

00:07:51.680 cause and effect better. And what we find is that it's all over the board. Like some studies

00:07:55.220 conclude, yes, you know, maybe social media and screens are causing kids to, you know, have

00:08:02.340 have body image issues or be more depressed, be more anxious. And then other studies will find

00:08:07.860 that there's no effect or it's like the smallest effect. And what I love, this is like really

00:08:12.780 nerdy, but when you look at the aggregate of the research, what it suggests is that social media

00:08:18.860 is responsible for less than 1% of the overall variation in mental health among teens. So that's

00:08:26.980 really hard to kind of wrap your head around. But if you think of how much mental health,

00:08:31.680 how different people's mental health is when they're tweens and teens, we think that social

00:08:37.180 media exposure is responsible for less than 1% of that overall variation. Okay. Yeah. That makes me

00:08:43.300 feel great, actually. I love that number. I'm going to hold on to that number. I know it's a

00:08:47.980 good number but again like the research is really hard to do so it's like well of course you know

00:08:52.460 it's it's it's hard to know well research on anything having to do with kids is hard because

00:08:57.660 we can't exactly treat them like lab rats as much as we'd like to right yeah exactly that's the

00:09:03.580 whole thing like we we can't just like say what happens when we do this to teens let's watch and

00:09:08.120 see like let's watch i mean thank god there's like ethical you know that is a good thing that

00:09:13.980 is a good thing. Yes. Yes. Still, I'd like some hard, some cold, hard numbers is what I would

00:09:18.800 really like. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I mean, my whole thing now, now that I've, because I'm finished

00:09:24.900 breeding, I'm so happy to be finished breeding. I just want to parent without guilt and shame.

00:09:31.400 That's where I want to be. Like that is, that is my goal right now. One of my biggest problems

00:09:35.880 actually is discipline because as I said, gentle parenting doesn't work. There's a lot of yelling

00:09:41.680 in my house. They're just, they're just between everyone. Everyone is yelling. What have you dug

00:09:47.160 into with like, what works in terms of discipline for kids? And what doesn't work? Yeah, that's such

00:09:54.120 a great question. Because every parent I know is confused by this. You know, they're just like,

00:09:58.900 oh my god, like nothing, my kids laugh in my face. And I'm like, yeah, my kid gave me the

00:10:03.060 middle finger the other day. He's eight. Yeah, no, I know. It's, it's really hard because,

00:10:09.020 you know kids are really like they need I think one central thing that we have to keep in mind

00:10:14.740 about kids is it is actually really hard to be a kid because you don't have a whole lot of control

00:10:20.040 like you don't have a whole lot of agency everybody's deciding what you're going to be

00:10:23.720 doing and when you're going to be doing it and you know setting rules and setting limits and like

00:10:28.500 it sucks as a kid to feel that out of control and to feel like you have nothing that you know

00:10:35.120 you're just like an ant, like you could be like stepped on at any minute by me. And so kids are

00:10:44.180 trying to take control wherever they can. And that's often through like the little types of

00:10:48.140 rebelling or breaking rules or talking back. Like it's their way of gaining a feeling of like being

00:10:55.040 somewhat a little bit in charge. And so I find keeping that in mind really helpful. And often

00:11:01.760 And like what the research suggests is that kids are much more willing to listen to us

00:11:06.720 and follow our rules when we are willing to give them a little bit of power.

00:11:11.460 It may sound kind of counterintuitive, but like we know that the kind of parenting, like

00:11:17.020 the authoritarian, like harsh, you know, really strict rules, like parents saying, like, you

00:11:23.260 know, don't talk back to me.

00:11:24.520 I don't want to hear what you have to say.

00:11:26.300 Like you do what I say.

00:11:27.180 I'm in charge.

00:11:27.660 like that kind of parenting is actually linked with a lot more rebellion, a lot worse behavior

00:11:32.820 in kids. And, and we think it is causal that like, they're, you know, that when kids feel

00:11:39.300 like restricted and controlled, they just push back, push back, push back. So in a broad,

00:11:45.000 I feel like I'm giving a very broad answer here. And we can get into the specifics.

00:11:48.860 No, no, no, no, this is this is this is wildly helpful. I love this. I love this.

00:11:52.520 So like what we've found is that discipline works a lot better if you're really willing

00:11:57.960 to give your kids some autonomy, if you're willing to negotiate with them, listen to

00:12:01.680 them and like talk to them like they're actual like legitimate human beings who deserve respect.

00:12:08.700 Because they are.

00:12:09.620 Yes. 1.00

00:12:10.100 They're jerks, but they are legitimate human beings. 1.00

00:12:12.900 They are. 1.00

00:12:13.780 Right.

00:12:14.200 And I think it can be hard, though, to keep that in mind.

00:12:16.820 We have so much going on in our own lives and like, you know, our kids do something

00:12:20.600 And it's just like, we have these, you know, emotional reactions for so many reasons that

00:12:25.220 are just like, oh my God, my kid did this thing. 1.00

00:12:27.040 They're such an asshole. 1.00

00:12:27.740 Like I'm going to yell at them. 1.00

00:12:28.800 I mean, I, first of all, I just want to say that like I yell at my kids too.

00:12:31.840 Oh, good.

00:12:32.280 Thank you.

00:12:32.780 That makes me so happy.

00:12:34.140 Yeah.

00:12:34.520 I mean, I actually, I'm like, I'm delighted when I hear other parents snap at their kids

00:12:39.000 in public.

00:12:39.420 I'm like, I'm not alone.

00:12:40.560 I know.

00:12:41.240 It's so hard.

00:12:42.340 And I smile at them.

00:12:43.520 I do.

00:12:43.900 Because like, I feel like some people would give them a dirty look and I just like nod,

00:12:46.740 I nod in acknowledgement.

00:12:48.000 And I'm like, I see you.

00:12:49.400 I see you.

00:12:49.800 Thank you.

00:12:50.100 I know. I think we should all be doing that more. And also, I talk to a lot of child psychologists

00:12:55.060 who are like, just so you know, I yell at my kids. It's everybody does it. And they're like,

00:13:01.100 oh, also, this is the hardest thing in the world. And parenting my own children is so much harder

00:13:05.000 than being a child psychologist for other people's children. So parenting is just legit.

00:13:09.020 It's legit hard, man. Totally. Totally. Yeah. So anyway, where was I? So when our kids misbehave,

00:13:17.920 misbehave when they act like assholes okay um it can really help to first of all like figure out 0.90

00:13:27.880 like try to figure out where is this coming from could this be like you know related to how much 0.98

00:13:32.360 sleep they got or or like they feel really you know they're feeling really stressed or tired 0.99

00:13:35.880 like my my daughter was kind of a total asshole yesterday and it's because she was about to start 0.99

00:13:40.680 she's about to start exposure therapy for a phobia she has of needles that's really intense 0.99

00:13:44.720 And she was so stressed out and she was just like being really mean.

00:13:47.300 And I was like, okay, this is not about me.

00:13:49.020 This is about her fear of the exposure therapy that's starting.

00:13:52.820 So we can think about what might be going on, like try to like, you know, say, okay,

00:13:58.360 you're really acting out and it's really, I'm trying to figure out what's going on.

00:14:02.980 And I think maybe it's because of this.

00:14:03.980 Sometimes they'll be like, no, it's not because of that, but it can still help to try to like

00:14:07.140 validate like what's going on here.

00:14:08.820 Why are they acting this way?

00:14:10.600 Really trying to understand that.

00:14:12.060 And then, you know, sometimes, okay, here's the, here's my favorite approach for like

00:14:17.060 repeated disciplinary stuff.

00:14:19.920 And it may not work for every kid, but what I find is in the moment, it's really, really

00:14:23.260 hard to communicate with your kid when they're upset, when you're upset, like nobody's

00:14:26.460 listening, everybody's defensive.

00:14:28.360 What really works is I find something called collaborative problem solving, which is like

00:14:33.460 at a separate time, you go back to your kid when they're calm, when you're calm.

00:14:36.520 And you, you basically in a very like curious way say, you know, I've noticed that when

00:14:42.860 you come home from school, sometimes it, it, it seems like it's really hard and you know,

00:14:49.620 I'm not, I'm not totally sure why, but like you have a really hard time coming home from

00:14:52.240 school and, and I want to understand what that's about.

00:14:55.660 And I want to understand like what I can do to help and what we can do to make this better

00:15:00.180 because it's, it's, it's a struggle for me too.

00:15:03.340 Like I, I don't, I don't know how to help you.

00:15:05.060 And sometimes the way you treat me, it's like, it hurts me.

00:15:08.520 And, you know, and so you go at it with this like curious, like, let's figure this out.

00:15:12.860 Let's solve this problem together mindset when everybody's calm.

00:15:16.000 And sometimes it takes a few tries, but like often the kids will be like, well, you know,

00:15:20.540 like it's actually because of blah, blah, blah.

00:15:22.860 Like, and, and you know, what would really help me is whatever.

00:15:26.200 And so when you go at it that way and you kind of like try to treat it as like a problem

00:15:30.200 that you are both on the same team trying to solve that's related to their behavior, sometimes

00:15:36.280 that can really, really work because it doesn't feel antagonistic. It feels like, hey, I'm on

00:15:41.340 your side. I want to help you. It seems like you're struggling and you're taking it out a

00:15:44.780 little bit on me and I want to figure out what we can do. And we're on the same team. I mean,

00:15:49.340 I think that's really important, right? To make it, it's not me versus you. We are figuring this

00:15:54.340 out together. Yes. Yes, exactly. Now, again, this doesn't work for every kid. It doesn't work

00:15:59.940 every time. Yeah. But it has worked a few times for my kids in ways that I was like, whoa,

00:16:06.420 like I can't believe that actually works as well as it did. And so I'm a big fan of, yeah,

00:16:13.260 collaborative. It's collaborative problem solving. And Ross Green, I think, wrote a book about this.

00:16:18.300 I think it's called The Explosive Child. And then there's another researcher who has done a lot of

00:16:24.180 work in this area. And yeah, the approach can be super helpful. Love that. All right, let's take a

00:16:29.820 quick break. And when we get back, I want to talk about chapter two of your new book, Nurturing

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00:17:33.980 Okay, we are back.

00:17:36.540 You open up chapter two by saying the kids are not all right.

00:17:43.060 So unpack that a little bit for me.

00:17:45.520 Yeah.

00:17:46.360 So if you look at the data on the mental health of teens right now, it is not a super pretty

00:17:52.480 picture.

00:17:53.440 I think we've all probably heard this to some, you know, somewhere.

00:17:58.000 But the stats are not great.

00:18:00.060 We know suicide attempts among teens have increased over the past decade.

00:18:04.440 You know, a lot of this is related to the pandemic, of course.

00:18:06.960 But like one in five teens and one in three teen girls in particular have seriously considered attempting suicide. That's not good. Anxiety, depression symptoms are up. We know that deaths due to drug overdoses are up. Like there's just a lot of data that sound really scary.

00:18:27.840 And I do want to caveat this by saying we don't know how much of this is truly due to increases in these symptoms and these issues.

00:18:36.920 Like some of it could be that we're just getting really good at identifying and, you know, diagnosing these problems.

00:18:43.160 Like maybe parents are bringing their kids to therapists more than they used to and getting these diagnoses and it's just getting and then getting treated.

00:18:51.740 So like that would be really good if we're just like capturing more of this and that could definitely be part of it.

00:18:56.880 But there's also this concern that, well, actually, maybe the mental health of teens is declining in a way that is worrying.

00:19:06.080 Yeah, I mean, I see it a lot with my friends' kids. I really do. But then I also remember me being a teenager and I was angsty and depressed and anxious and all of the things.

00:19:20.260 And, you know, I think we are also probably talking about it more than we ever have.

00:19:25.940 I never talked about it with my parents.

00:19:29.140 What is the answer here or one of the answers to like, how can we nurture healthy resilience

00:19:34.600 in children?

00:19:36.120 Yeah, this is such a big question.

00:19:39.520 And OK, so I really love something that the psychologist Lisa DeMoor says, and I talk

00:19:44.900 about it in my book.

00:19:45.640 She says mental health is not about feeling good all the time.

00:19:48.720 It's about having feelings that are appropriate to the situation and then also having healthy

00:19:54.620 coping skills to get you through those difficult feelings.

00:19:57.800 Sometimes I think as parents, we think our job is to ensure that our kids are happy and

00:20:03.360 comfortable and successful all the time.

00:20:06.600 And that like, that's what we should be making sure our kids feel all the time.

00:20:10.460 And what she's basically saying is, no, we actually, we don't want that.

00:20:15.680 We want our kids to have challenging moments.

00:20:18.160 We want our kids to fail. We want our kids to feel uncomfortable because when they have those

00:20:24.640 opportunities to feel that way in, you know, a safe concept, in a safe context, we're not talking

00:20:29.320 about like exposing them to trauma, but like when we expose them to these difficult situations and

00:20:35.480 feelings, we're giving them practice at developing the healthy coping skills that will, you know,

00:20:41.100 stick with them their whole lives and help them get through tough moments forever. So we need to

00:20:45.220 give them this practice at having these tough feelings and tough experiences. And that is not,

00:20:50.560 you know, when our kids are struggling, that's not a sign of, of, you know, mental health problems,

00:20:55.220 as long as they're appropriate, you know, these feelings are appropriate, and that like,

00:21:00.540 they're not getting in the way of your child, you know, doing what they normally do. And also,

00:21:05.300 if you're, you know, helping them develop these coping skills, and if they're learning slowly how

00:21:09.680 to how to cope with these feelings. So what this means for resilience, that was a long way in,

00:21:14.140 is that like, basically we need to let our kids be unhappy. We need to let our kids fail. We need

00:21:21.420 to let our kids not be successful because that gives them the practice at developing these coping

00:21:26.420 skills. And so that can be like, I feel like, you know, we, we understand this on some level in

00:21:31.620 terms of, okay, I should like not do my kids homework for them all the time, but it's also

00:21:34.900 other things. It's like letting your kids go to overnight camp and not feeling like you have to

00:21:38.520 send a care package every single day, because it's good for our kids to feel a little sad and

00:21:43.580 to feel a little uncomfortable and to miss us.

00:21:45.580 That is a feeling of discomfort that's actually healthy that they can then work through when

00:21:50.700 they're at camp and recognize like, okay, I felt sad and then I figured out that if

00:21:57.600 I do stuff with my friends, I feel a little bit better and that's them learning these

00:22:01.340 healthy coping skills.

00:22:02.140 So basically, we need to let our kids do hard things, experience hard things and that is

00:22:07.580 the path slowly to resilience.

00:22:10.320 You know, and that's what everyone keeps telling me.

00:22:12.200 I was talking to Susan Dominus yesterday and she said the exact same thing because she

00:22:17.580 just wrote a book about the family dynamic, about, you know, siblings and how parents

00:22:23.720 have raised really high achieving kids.

00:22:26.420 And she's like, you have to have them, one, do things for themselves and two, fail at

00:22:32.040 those things.

00:22:33.420 Yes.

00:22:33.940 I'm so excited to read her book, by the way.

00:22:35.520 Oh, my God.

00:22:35.800 It's so good.

00:22:36.900 It's the family dynamic.

00:22:38.400 My episode with her actually just came out this morning.

00:22:41.100 So give it a listen.

00:22:42.200 she's a delight. She is an absolute delight. I love her. I want to talk a little bit about

00:22:47.920 modeling relaxation for our kids, because I loved what you said in there, that your kid's dad,

00:22:56.620 he would sit around and read the New York Times, and then they would pick up their magazines,

00:23:01.400 The Week Junior. By the way, I'm a massive Week Junior stan. Me too. I love The Week Junior so

00:23:08.060 much it is it's like modeling news consumption for my kids is a big thing for me so like we are

00:23:15.860 obsessed with week junior in our house they should pay me to like to be um a sponsor of this show

00:23:21.020 because i talk about them so much but uh yeah i'm obsessed with them yeah me too and so you were

00:23:26.740 saying that you know they just kind of lay around and you're like why isn't why why why aren't they

00:23:30.640 doing the chores with me and then you're like no maybe i should be modeling this relaxation this

00:23:35.980 kind of like downtime for them. Talk to me about that. Yeah. Oh God. This is something that I

00:23:41.520 really struggle with. I really struggle with letting myself relax. Same, same, same. I just

00:23:46.900 had COVID last week and I was like, I know I should rest and I should just sit in bed. And it

00:23:52.020 was so hard for me. I was like, no, I should be writing my newsletter. I should be cleaning the

00:23:56.480 house. I was like, what the hell? I have COVID. So this is something I really have struggled with. 0.95

00:24:01.640 And yes, I used to get very resentful at my kid's dad because every Saturday morning he made it a priority that he was like, this is my time to sit on the couch, like maybe in front of the fire and read and relax.

00:24:13.020 And I would be running around the house, like trying to figure out what I could get done and be like, why are you sitting around? Why are you sitting around?

00:24:18.960 And then I started reporting this chapter because I really wanted to have a chapter on like, how do we help kids find a healthy balance, like a healthy work life balance?

00:24:29.240 And like, what can we do when they're kids to help them to basically ensure they don't turn into total workaholics?

00:24:34.300 Because I don't think that we know that's not good.

00:24:36.760 Because no one is enjoying that.

00:24:38.900 OK, no one likes that.

00:24:41.020 Right.

00:24:41.440 And it's like, you know, and it's because we're getting these messages from our culture, like that we need to constantly be doing, doing, doing.

00:24:47.780 And it's just it's not helpful.

00:24:48.960 So yeah, I realized like, wait a minute, maybe I'm the one who needs to change, not their dad.

00:24:55.600 Like maybe he doesn't need to put down his paper and help me clean. I need to put down the mop and

00:24:59.980 actually sit down and read the paper. So yeah, what I found talking to, I really wanted to dig

00:25:04.740 into like, how can we help our kids develop these healthy habits? And I ended up speaking to a lot

00:25:08.860 of researchers who studied leisure, which I didn't know there were researchers who study

00:25:12.900 leisure. Like, I think that's amazing. Like, you know, and I mean, I'm here for that job.

00:25:18.020 I know, right? I love leisure. I'm bad at it. I'm bad at leisure, but I love the idea of it.

00:25:23.600 I know. And I was like, please, researchers of leisure, tell me, how do you cultivate this in

00:25:28.780 yourself? And how do you make sure you don't get sucked into this culture of doing, doing, doing?

00:25:36.800 And they were like, honestly, so much of it is what kids see around them when they're growing up.

00:25:41.780 And also like another thing that was really an interesting point that they made was that if kids when they're younger have a lot of free time and a lot of like the feeling of permission of doing what they want to do and like figuring out how they want to spend their time, they are much better at doing that when they're adults.

00:25:58.960 And if you don't as a kid, like have that sort of, I mean, it's almost like giving them an opportunity to feel bored and figure out like, well, what do I want to do with myself? What is my body telling me it wants me to do? Then as adults, like you're really bad at it. And I'm like, oh, shit, that's me. Like, I'm really bad at figuring out what I actually want to do.

00:26:18.300 when I have downtime. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I think I'll clean.

00:26:24.260 And so just giving kids the practice at discovering their interests, at figuring out

00:26:29.140 what their body is telling them would be good for them as a kid makes them so much better at doing

00:26:34.760 that the rest of their lives. And I was like, oh, wow. Okay. So this is really important. This is

00:26:39.400 really meaningful. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm trying to not overschedule my kids, which is

00:26:44.260 really hard. It's really hard. But I'm also trying to do that for the summer. I got to say we I

00:26:50.020 didn't sign up for any camps this summer because we're traveling a bunch like so it's there. It

00:26:55.000 wasn't really possible. And we also, you know, still have an au pair who works with us. And I'm

00:27:01.320 like, great. They can go to a bunch of different parks. Like there's like, yeah, I'm really but

00:27:07.340 I'm still so nervous about it. Right. Like I freaked out the other I'm like, are there any

00:27:12.220 camp still available? Am I making the wrong decision? But I'm actually kind of psyched for

00:27:16.460 their summer of nothing. Yeah, I think it'll be great. It'll be great for them. I mean,

00:27:20.760 there's probably going to be a few rough moments, especially at first when they're like, I'm bored,

00:27:23.820 I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored. Totally. And I'm going to be like, go outside.

00:27:27.840 Okay. Like, also, you have 1000 books in the house, you have 1000 puzzles, too many fucking 0.99

00:27:33.920 toys. The book that I actually want to write at some point, I'm not going to do it because I have 0.96

00:27:38.220 too many book ideas um is 80s parenting yes yes how we can parent more like our parents did

00:27:48.900 because I actually I think our generation is doing okay to be honest like you know especially

00:27:54.400 like I'm I'm a gen x millennial hybrid me too right yeah and I'm like you know what we're like 0.73

00:28:01.360 we're pretty successful we're a little fucking neurotic but like we're all right and our parents 0.83

00:28:05.020 did nothing, like nothing. There was no scheduling for me. I drank out of a garden hose when I was 0.98

00:28:11.400 thirsty. So yeah, 80s parenting. That's what I'm here for. Yeah. Oh, God. I would love to read that

00:28:18.260 book if you do actually. I know. I'm not going to write it, though. There's just too many books to

00:28:22.480 write right now. I hear you. Yeah. Plus, fiction is so much easier. I mean, I am so in awe of you

00:28:28.420 writing nonfiction. With fiction, I can just make shit up in my head. I don't have to do 0.98

00:28:33.560 interviews. I just sit down and make things up. Okay, that's hilarious, because I am in so in

00:28:39.840 awe of you. And I don't know how you write fiction. Because for me, if I don't have the

00:28:45.200 structure of like, you know, having to tell the truth in a way, like, I just don't even know where

00:28:51.280 to go. Like, I've tried writing fiction. And I'm like, I don't know, this character could do

00:28:54.080 anything next. Like, how do I choose? I don't know how you do it. Oh, no, so much easier. So

00:28:59.160 much easier I don't have to fact check anything um yeah it's it's delightful it's that's why I

00:29:06.260 switched to fiction when I was breeding because I'm like I don't know I don't have time to do

00:29:09.900 interviews um I hear you I know I know but anyway yeah so what you do is absolutely incredible you

00:29:16.960 were and you're doing God's work for parents because I gotta say so many of my friends

00:29:20.360 subscribe to your newsletter and they're like this is what's keeping me sane oh I'm really

00:29:26.160 thank you for telling me that. It's really nice to hear. Sometimes you don't know if anybody's

00:29:29.980 actually really reading it and if it's doing anything. Oh, I know. Thank you. I know that

00:29:34.020 feeling very, very well. Yeah, right? Yes. Yes. Being an expert in this space, has it changed

00:29:42.280 how you parent? Well, first of all, I did not think of myself as an expert. I don't know. Maybe

00:29:47.900 that's imposter syndrome or something, but I don't. That's totally imposter syndrome. If a man

00:29:52.880 If a man did all the things you do and wrote all the things you wrote, he or half, maybe 0.96

00:29:58.700 maybe even a fifth of them, he would be like, I'm the fucking expert, not a expert, the 0.99

00:30:04.020 fucking expert. 1.00

00:30:05.460 Okay, fair. 1.00

00:30:06.280 All right.

00:30:06.700 I will own it.

00:30:07.680 Yes, I'm absolutely an expert.

00:30:10.820 Yeah, you know, I, I'm, I'm really like happy to say that at this point in my parenting,

00:30:17.760 so I have a 10 year old and a 14 year old.

00:30:19.540 So it's like, sometimes a little rough going.

00:30:22.440 Yeah.

00:30:22.880 I feel a lot more relaxed as a parent than I think I would have otherwise, because I do feel like when I when I look at the research, what I keep finding is like, it's all about the big picture and that like the little things don't matter as much as we think they do.

00:30:41.160 And as much as we are told they do by influencers and whatnot, like, oh, yeah, we're going to get into that after our next break.

00:30:47.840 Totally. Yeah. So I, I mean, I really feel like what I keep finding in the research are these

00:30:52.580 like big themes that are basically like, have conversations with your kids, respect your kids,

00:30:58.040 like listen to what they have to say. Don't sweat the small stuff is kind of what I keep

00:31:03.700 uncovering. And, you know, and it's like, also, if you make mistakes, that's actually often really

00:31:08.680 good, because it's like an opportunity to model accountability and to model what it looks like to

00:31:12.880 to apologize and to like repair with your kids, which can be so powerful. And so I feel like I

00:31:18.880 just, I'm not as scared of making mistakes. And I'm not as scared of like the little tiny day to

00:31:27.580 day things that I might mess up as a parent anymore. And that really is nice. It's a nice

00:31:32.680 place to be in. It is it is. I truly believe that parenting influencers on TikTok and Instagram are

00:31:39.960 the worst thing that ever happened to parenting. So I want to unpack that a little bit after we

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00:32:36.900 Okay, we are back. Parenting influencers suck. I just hate them so much. 1.00

00:32:46.200 Yeah. I mean, they're coming at us from every different direction. They're on these things,

00:32:51.920 these screens that are essentially attached to our hands all the time. And the majority of them

00:32:56.500 are not qualified to be giving advice on anything. I mean, as much as I just told you to own being an

00:33:01.840 expert. I desperately want them to not own being an expert. So what, how do we block out the noise

00:33:10.300 of these people? Oh, I know. I mean, honestly, this is like why I write my newsletter is because

00:33:16.620 of influencers who are terrifying parents and in, you know, in ways that, I mean, they're,

00:33:22.640 they're obviously just trying to sell things. First of all, like they're just trying to sell

00:33:26.020 things. Like I just, I want, I want that to be so clear that they just want, they just want to

00:33:30.960 make money off of you. Yes. And they are so unhelpful. I used to, and I haven't done it in

00:33:35.960 a while because it was honestly driving me a little nuts, but I used to run this thing in my

00:33:40.360 newsletter, like parenting advice, hot take, where I would take like usually something that I found

00:33:45.940 on social media from an influencer, like some, you know, meme or whatever advice they had. And

00:33:50.480 then I would basically tear it apart and be like, this advice is really bad. And here's why you

00:33:56.540 don't need to stress about this. And then, but then I found I was like, it was like affecting

00:34:00.460 my mental health to be because I had to like scroll through all these accounts that I hated

00:34:03.780 to find something every week. Welcome to my world. Somehow becoming America's leading expert on

00:34:10.840 Tradwives, I now actually have to scroll through Tradwives accounts and it makes me want to die.

00:34:16.240 Yes. It's really hard to do that. And so I kind of stopped, but I should probably bring it back

00:34:21.940 up again. Oh, no, I want you to bring it back. I feel bad for your mental health, but I want it

00:34:25.640 for me. I know. I was like, maybe I can hire somebody to do it for me. No. Destroy them,

00:34:30.740 pay them to destroy their mental health. It's terrible. So, I mean, I think like the first 1.00

00:34:37.680 thing is if you, if you have, if you have an account that you're following, that's like making

00:34:41.060 you feel in any way, like a lesser parent or making you feel guilt or making you feel stressed

00:34:45.580 and just stop following them. Like that's my first, it's obvious advice, but like, you know,

00:34:51.000 even if it, I think you just really have to be tuned into like, how is this really making me

00:34:54.420 feel? Because I think sometimes we don't know. We're like, oh, I'm getting good information.

00:34:57.280 It's helpful. It's going to make me a better parent when actually it's like really making

00:35:00.780 us feel shitty. And so I think we have to really, we have to weigh that. Like you might think,

00:35:08.240 well, it's worth it if I'm going to be a better parent for reading this, but like, it's not

00:35:11.700 worth it if it's making you feel terrible, because we know that like that feeling of guilt

00:35:16.240 and anxiety as a parent is like, that is more harmful for the parent child relationship than

00:35:21.440 anything else. Like, so if it's just making you feel like annoyed and shitty, then just like try

00:35:27.360 to just turn, you know, just unfollow, just unfollow. I want to I actually, I want to have

00:35:33.180 some merch made that says just unfollow. Yeah, right. It's the simple maybe, you know, will

00:35:40.440 people buy the book? If I if I give away this merch, everyone order everyone is lying to you

00:35:46.020 right now. I cannot say it enough. I really can't. And also order Melinda's wonderful book while

00:35:51.040 you're at it, while you're in there. Order Hello Cruel World. Yes, please. Please do, everyone.

00:35:58.120 Come on. Yeah, but because just unfollow is such simple advice. And at the same time,

00:36:05.280 even I don't do it. And I'm a person who lives in influencer land. I know. I know. It's true.

00:36:11.240 It's not easy. I mean, I think also, though, like every time I do feel guilt. So if you can't do

00:36:17.320 that, or you won't do that, then I would say, just remember, like, tell yourself every time

00:36:22.420 you read something that makes you feel kind of shitty, that like, this is what they're trying

00:36:26.360 to do. Like, so I, my chapter on media literacy in my book is like all about helping kids recognize

00:36:32.440 like, that media is always created with some kind of agenda, or like, there are people behind it who

00:36:38.380 have beliefs that they're trying to like, you know, throw on you, right. And so we can do that

00:36:43.440 too, like recognize, okay, I'm feeling shitty right now. And that's probably honestly what

00:36:48.520 they were going for so that I am scared enough to buy, you know, to sign up for their workshop

00:36:53.100 or to buy whatever it is that they're selling. Um, and so like, I think just sort of reminding

00:36:58.660 yourself of that, like this maybe is their goal and like, that's kind of shitty, like might help

00:37:03.580 you feel better. Right. I agree. I agree. I think media literacy is really hard these days. I mean, 0.77

00:37:09.460 for both grownups and kids, this is something I think about constantly. I mean, at one point,

00:37:14.320 I even considered going back to school, getting a PhD in communications, so that I could try to 0.99

00:37:21.600 solve this fucking problem. And then I was told that I was too old to get a PhD. What? Oh, yeah. 0.99

00:37:28.600 Yeah, that's ridiculous. That's so shitty advice. Yeah. And so maybe I'll still do it. Okay. Because 1.00

00:37:33.040 I think that every school should be teaching media literacy starting in fucking kindergarten 0.99

00:37:37.620 at this point. What is your advice for how to raise kids who understand media, who understand 0.98

00:37:45.680 the news, because they don't see news consumption modeled the way that we did, right? They just see

00:37:52.380 us stare at our phones. They don't know what we're doing. I know. It's so true. Yeah. Yeah. So I think

00:37:58.020 for this chapter in media literacy, I talked to more experts than for any other chapter, because

00:38:01.840 I was like, how the heck, like, this is such a huge issue. And I didn't know what to say. There's

00:38:08.700 not a whole lot of research on it. So I was like, I'm just going to call everybody that I can find

00:38:14.080 who studies it, like media literacy in children in particular, and how it how it develops. And

00:38:19.140 there were two things that I feel like I came away from it with. One is, and this one, this

00:38:26.420 first one is like really really simple but like everyone said it which was like really start

00:38:32.720 asking your kids questions about the shows they like the media they consume like curious questions

00:38:39.300 like it can be like what do you like about this show you know with little kids or like

00:38:43.200 you know why do you think what do you think the character's feeling why do you think they wanted

00:38:48.300 to to show him this way or like show her this way you know ask basically you're trying to get

00:38:53.320 your kids to recognize that media is made by people and it's not always made for everyone.

00:39:01.840 Like, you know, who is this for? Who is it not for? That often it's made by people who have

00:39:06.060 some kind of agenda or they have some kind of goal. They want you to feel a certain way. They

00:39:10.600 want you to do something. They want you to buy something. And like really just getting kids to

00:39:16.940 recognize that like that there are people behind it and there are agendas behind it um and

00:39:23.700 yeah like and that like people are left out and and and perspectives are sometimes left out and

00:39:30.680 really just sort of trying to trying to get them constantly like asking these questions in their

00:39:34.520 head or at least thinking about media in this way yeah totally i mean i maybe i may i also may take

00:39:41.320 a step too far, right? As like a media nerd. I try to teach, and I'm only doing this with the

00:39:47.440 eight-year-old, right? But we don't watch a whole lot of YouTube in our house, but there are certain

00:39:53.060 things that he loves, okay? He loves Mark Rober of Crunch Labs, right? I love Mark so much. He loves

00:39:59.720 the Art for Kids Art Hub channel. But I've taught him, I'm like, you know what? I'm like, I don't

00:40:05.560 love YouTube and here is why. I do not love that it serves you things that you are not looking for.

00:40:10.520 and then we talked about who owns YouTube and I was like Google owns YouTube and so who is making

00:40:15.840 money off of YouTube and who are these people and we did a deep dive together on the family behind

00:40:22.200 Art Hub Mormons by the way obviously um and Mark Rober and like what what are their background like

00:40:29.920 who are they also what are they trying to sell you and are you cool with that product um and we came

00:40:35.500 up with Mark, we're like, yeah, we're done with this. We love the Crunch Labs kits. Like, we're

00:40:40.240 very, very into this. But it was an interesting experiment, right? I'm like, we need to know who

00:40:45.500 these personalities are. And we deserve to know who they are. Yeah, that's great. I love that you

00:40:50.500 did this. And this is a perfect example of what I was trying to talk about in this very broad way.

00:40:55.220 But yeah, like have these conversations about who are these people? And what are why do they make

00:40:59.000 this. And, um, you know, why is it being presented this way and et cetera. Um, the second thing that

00:41:05.280 I, that I do a lot with my kids, um, is like, you know, kids come to you with like these facts,

00:41:12.560 right. That they have heard from a friend or they have seen on YouTube or whatever it is.

00:41:18.260 Like they just come to you sometimes with information and I'm always, I have to kind

00:41:23.980 of bite my tongue. Cause I don't want, I don't want to, I don't want to challenge them in a way

00:41:27.640 that makes them defensive necessarily. But I do come at them with this sort of curious, like,

00:41:32.240 oh, that's interesting. So where did you learn that? And often this leads to a conversation

00:41:37.900 about like, you know, when you get information, how do you trust whether it's true? How do you

00:41:44.800 know whether it's true? And like how it's very important to consider the source of the information

00:41:49.160 and the expertise of that source. And so, you know, sometimes my son is like, Mr. Beast said

00:41:53.940 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah about like vegetables. And I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. Do you know,

00:41:58.180 do we think like, does, what does Mr. Beast know about vegetables? Like, is he an expert

00:42:02.380 of vegetables? You know, whatever it is. Um, and really try to get them to think about like,

00:42:06.620 Oh, okay. You know, is this a trustworthy source of information? Could we find a different

00:42:10.900 trustworthy source? And I often like, I'm also, I often tell my kids, like, I don't know the answer

00:42:15.880 to whatever question you're asking me. Like they come to me constantly with questions.

00:42:19.180 Oh my God. So many questions.

00:42:20.400 So many questions. I know. I don't know. But I don't know. Also, I will say that because of

00:42:26.580 the accessibility of phones, they assume that we have immediate access to this. Right. And at

00:42:31.460 bedtime, I have the phone downstairs. But that's when I get asked all these questions. I'm like,

00:42:35.220 I don't know. If you remember it in the morning, I'll find out. Yes, I know. It's always at bedtime.

00:42:39.620 It's always at bedtime. Always, always. But yeah, like then, you know, researching it with them can

00:42:44.960 be super helpful. Like, oh, I don't know the answer to that. And then you can go on Google

00:42:48.180 with them, like even just kids don't know what to type in the Google search bar. Sometimes like

00:42:52.100 they type the, you know, words that are like, you're like, that's not actually a keyword for

00:42:55.740 this question. Why are you putting that in there? Like showing them like, okay, here's why I'm

00:42:59.260 putting it this way in Google. And then like going through the answer that the, you know,

00:43:04.260 the results that you get. And, and often like the most trustworthy source is not the, even on the

00:43:09.480 first page. Like sometimes it's like, okay, well, I don't know that I would trust like this particular

00:43:13.100 source and here's why. And like talk through it and then figure out like, okay, I trust,

00:43:16.920 I trust this source because it's you know a university and I here's why I trust you know

00:43:22.920 university information that comes from universities and like really just like talk through it with

00:43:26.920 them and show them how you figure out how to source information and where you find information

00:43:31.560 you can trust like that can be super super helpful yeah and fun I think yeah to be honest like quite

00:43:37.340 fun I really like this my son decided that he does not think Mr. Beast is trustworthy good because

00:43:42.840 Beast and Rober did a crossover episode. And so he was curious about Mr. Beast. And I'm like,

00:43:49.300 I think he's crap. So I'm like, but let's do let's do a deep dive into Beast. And he's like, 0.99

00:43:54.200 you know, I don't like him. I'm like, cool. Me neither. He's just trying to sell you some

00:43:58.860 chocolate. It's so true. Oh, God, we've had so much of that chocolate in our house.

00:44:02.600 Oh, God. But no, you I mean, this is amazing. You're you are raising a really media literate

00:44:07.840 kid like more media literate than a lot of adults well and that's the thing right i mean so i just

00:44:12.980 yeah i think this is so so necessary and then i think i mean tell me what you think because you 0.98

00:44:18.780 are the expert on on this you are um i'm gonna i'm gonna order you a mug that says i'm a fucking 0.90

00:44:23.840 expert uh i love making merch i do i do i'm such a merch whore uh but i mean i i think that you 0.95

00:44:32.800 know by teaching this media literacy at a young age then we'll solve a lot of these you know

00:44:37.760 anxiety issues in teens, right? Because if you know where something is coming from,

00:44:44.240 if you know everyone's touching up their goddamn Instagrams, like you are going to feel less bad 0.98

00:44:48.780 about yourself. Absolutely. I completely agree. And I think this is why, like, me as a, as a 0.99

00:44:55.360 parenting expert, I'm a much more chill parent now. Because yeah, like, when you when you know

00:45:01.360 what that some of the stuff isn't trustworthy, some of the information you're getting is not

00:45:05.120 real like when you know that and you can kind of recognize that when you come across something

00:45:09.220 that's terrifying or you know make it designed to make you feel bad then yeah you're like this

00:45:12.780 just kind of bounce off me it's not as scary it's not as terrifying and so yeah absolutely i think

00:45:16.960 making kids more media literate will absolutely help their mental health like forever yeah totally

00:45:21.940 i totally agree tell everyone where they can find you on the newsletter and in this wonderful book

00:45:27.760 of yours hello cruel world thank you so you can buy my book um and my first book too how to raise 0.76

00:45:34.080 kids who aren't assholes at any bookstore. And my I would say my website is the easiest way to

00:45:40.660 find me. It's Melinda Wenner Moyer.com. And there will be a link on there to sign up for my newsletter

00:45:46.300 now what on Substack. But yeah, that's kind of a one stop shop. Love it. Love it.

00:46:04.080 We'll see you next time.

00:46:34.080 you want to impress them on a first date but also play it cool so what do you do I'm Rufy Thorpe

00:46:48.940 and I wrote and read a real love story about a hinge couple that navigated exactly that

00:46:53.760 listen to the free audiobook now

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - May 20, 2025

Is Your Kid an Asshole or Just a Kid？ With Melinda Wenner Moyer

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