00:07:40.560My husband is from Wisconsin, and he remembers very well growing up.
00:07:49.760A family friend of theirs, the dad was a judge, and every Sunday when football came on, he'd be playing at this house, and this guy would say,
00:07:59.340all the humans need their gladiators yep and that that is i mean that's that's that's what sports
00:08:07.200are we're watching men men fight in a cage so i get that i feel that real hard one of my friends
00:08:13.860from college said well i think of it every time i see a straight road i think a roman road i don't
00:08:18.920know what that is but apparently that's a thing i mean and then my and then one of my dear friends
00:08:24.340said well i think of it all the time he said i think about it i mean he was like i emailed him
00:08:28.180I said, how often do you think about women? And within 30 seconds, I got an email with it
00:08:30.900all the time. I was like, really? Okay. And he's like, you know, he's like an older guy. He's,
00:08:37.680you know, I was like, what? Why? Why? And he said, well, as a child, I was obsessed the way
00:08:43.600you are with superheroes and things like that. And then he said, I'm less obsessed now, but I
00:08:49.380just think about like, you know, what would it have, I don't know. I couldn't, but it's so wonderful
00:08:54.040And then on the most, on that sinister end, I looked up, I just thought, I wonder, I wonder if there's an Andrew Tate component to this.
00:09:06.240So Andrew Tate, that's because you have daughters and you're a woman.
00:09:08.960Andrew Tate is like the really, he is this internet phenomenon who convinces, who talks about like masculinity as this sort of, you know, men must be, like the worst kind of fragile, rigid masculinity that he's trying to convince young boys about.
00:09:31.320and he's it's been a it's a it's terrible thing and um and he's super popular with teen boys
00:09:39.000and young men um he's like the masculinity version of white supremacy oh he was arrested he was in
00:09:45.900jail yeah i know i see the look on your face you're going oh oh because i'm looking him up
00:09:50.280and his net worth is something like 700 million dollars yeah yeah it's very he's very bad very
00:09:57.160very very bad and um and and it's something you know that you have to if you have if you had older
00:10:03.060kids you would be talking about it hopefully with them girls too because they need to know
00:10:08.960what's going on with this guy and what how the influence he might be having on boys so he has
00:10:14.220a tremendous influence on a fairly significant segment of boys and it's just on a whim looked
00:10:20.380up andrew tate roman empire and yeah it turns out he loves the roman empire for you know you
00:10:27.100And because these boys who watch him or listen to him, they don't know anything.
00:10:54.000So that is, so there was also a, I don't like to really use the phrase toxic masculinity, but in this case, I think it fits that there was a toxic masculinity piece of it, not for, you know, men like my nephew or my friend or my brother, but that is definitely a piece of it for a cohort of younger men, I think.
00:11:16.240now now i'm really i'm about to go deep down an andrew tate rabbit hole which will probably
00:11:22.560make me feel gross and oozy later on but we started this conversation to talk about the
00:11:30.580roman empire but i do have to talk about this really quick now that it's it's you've brought0.77
00:11:34.580it onto my radar i did not even realize that this was such a thing on tiktok bombarding these young
00:11:42.340men with these kinds of misogynistic videos. I do. I also I also have a son. I have a six year
00:11:47.220old son. And this is terrifying. Yeah. And he was he was charged in Romania with rape and human
00:11:53.160trafficking. And yet he continues to have this really intense hold on a lot of boys and young
00:12:02.460men. And so it really is something because, you know, like anything with media, they watch it.
00:12:07.520You know, at first they watch it because they think it's like funny or weird. But those ideas
00:12:11.500get into their heads and of course it's something that uh with for parents because you know we look
00:12:17.100at that stuff and go like well that's ridiculous but it becomes not ridiculous to them you know
00:12:24.200it becomes part of their world and those and you know there's a lot of research i talked about this
00:12:28.860in boys and sex about how um when you embed false facts in stories people's first response and this
00:12:36.720is not specific to boys. This is just humanity. And this tells us a lot about like fake news and
00:12:42.720what's happened on the internet. Your first response is to go, oh, that's not true. But then
00:12:47.020over time, even if it's not told to you again, like they did these experiments with college
00:12:51.540students where they put false facts into stories, like exercise is bad for you, like something1.00
00:12:57.020that stupid, right? And they go, well, of course that's not true. And then they ask them two weeks0.99
00:13:01.080later after they've read the story and they're like, yeah, you know, I heard something that
00:13:04.700exercise is bad for you and it actually becomes more it those false beliefs become strengthened
00:13:09.000over time after they're told things so if you are if a boy is sitting and watching Andrew Tate
00:13:16.180because he thinks it's you know hilarious as boys will say when something you know and I have a whole
00:13:21.260a whole deconstruction of the word hilarious and what it means in boys lives but they watch it
00:13:28.460because they think it's funny or it's hilarious or it's goofy but they will there it starts to
00:13:32.840implant beliefs. And that's not to say that there are going to be horrible, misogynist rapists or0.98
00:13:36.560anything like that, but it starts to skew who they are in the world. And we have to really,
00:13:41.100you know, it's a world that the online world, so much of the online world wants them to be
00:13:46.020super polarized, wants them to be extreme, wants them to be, you know, misogynist. And you have to
00:13:54.200constantly sort of like upstep that and talk to them about that and work with that.
00:13:57.800yes i and this hamster tate he's not an obscure personality just for i feel like oh god no not
00:14:06.340of my a lot of my listeners probably haven't heard about him either because his videos been watched
00:14:11.18011.6 billion times yeah no it's not a little thing i'm not talking about some weird corner
00:14:18.480dusty corner of the dark web or something this guy's mainstream and this is boys really because
00:14:25.600he makes you feel better about yourself and when you're a young man and you're like insecure like
00:14:32.540oh we all are when we're young you know it gives you sort of like some tools he he's supportive
00:14:38.140he and then slowly it flips into this like really deep misogyny we are going to take a quick break
00:14:47.700here when we get back we are going even further into this andrew tate rabbit hole and more
00:14:53.760terrifying things that boys and young men are being shown on social media. I didn't know that
00:14:59.120this is where the episode was going, but I'm really glad we went there. Happy about it. Be right back.
00:15:05.380i feel bad for young men for a lot of reasons but they want to be
00:15:21.960encouraged and led and they want role models yeah i really try to avoid the phrase toxic
00:15:28.720masculinity because i think it puts boys in a defensive crouch and i don't want them to think
00:15:33.380that who they are like their their their personhood is toxic and so I try to use words like rigid
00:15:39.080masculinity or fragile masculinity or you know conventional masculine like words that are less
00:15:45.500loaded um some of the boys like when I was writing boys it's like some of them use that phrase
00:15:50.620because that phrase obviously is in the culture and they all know it um but but I and and I'm
00:15:54.940often you know people say like that I use it but I actually I actually try to not use that because
00:16:00.820I feel like when I talk to boys, it was so interesting talking to boys, honestly, Joe, they they because, first of all, they would say people would say to me, like, how did you get boys to talk to you like that?
00:16:14.220I'd say, I asked, you know, because really, nobody asks them. And if you ask them, they actually talked more sort of emotionally and deeply in some ways than girls did, because they never had the opportunity. And they were so, and I would say like, you know, what, tell me, you know, when I would ask them to, like, what was the question I would ask?
00:19:24.680so it's really funny okay okay we can work with this so i wrote him a spelling guide for
00:19:38.380other ways to tell his father he's unhappy with him i'm annoyed with you i'm confused by you
00:19:46.760i'm sad um and now he's using a lot more a lot more verbs isn't that great i mean
00:19:53.640right for his vocabulary but also that's exactly what i'm talking about you because hate is anger
00:19:58.860right and usually under hate is not usually a primary emotion there's usually something
00:20:04.160underneath that there's hurt there's sadness there's pain there's something else so how do
00:20:07.660you help i mean i think that works for girls too but girls aren't discouraged from um learning what
00:20:15.840the range of their emotions are in the same way i mean they may it may be that they don't for
00:20:20.120whatever reason, but it's not considered part of their gender identity to cut themselves off
00:20:25.160from feeling. I always say that girls, boys, girls, the work with girls was about learning
00:20:30.140about how girls cut themselves off from their body. And the work with boys, although it was0.95
00:20:35.040also about sex and all of that, but it was really fundamentally about how boys cut themselves off
00:20:39.060from their heart. Oh, see, I haven't, this is one of your books that I haven't read yet.
00:20:44.540And now I need to. Now I'm ordering it on Amazon right now.
00:20:47.580Well, I mean, I'm not saying that you should, but, you know, obviously, of course, of course, but I don't think they're ever too young.
00:20:56.780Yeah. Yeah. It is true that, you know, around those issues of, you know, development of emotion, other things that are going to eventually scaffold into being about their relationships with a partner, both emotional and sexual, are things that we plant the seeds of when they're very, very young.
00:21:16.000whether it you know how we talk about their bodies or it's how we allow them to express emotion or
00:21:21.300how we teach them to behave with others on the playground you know all these things are going
00:21:26.800to they're going to bring into their human relationships and you can't really just start
00:21:30.700talking about the issues that you know that become that when they're first of all once they hit
00:21:36.820puberty it's really hard to talk to them anyway like entering into those conversations that you
00:21:40.380know 13 14 15 good luck with that not that you can't if your children are already that age but
00:21:45.120it's it's just a lot harder whereas if you are already talking about like you know emotions when
00:21:51.200they're little if you get those you know there's all these there's great books on um sexuality for
00:21:56.780you know for four-year-olds that are are wonderful um Roby Harris's books are wonderful sex is a
00:22:02.340funny word it's wonderful they're on my website which is my name but you know there's to have
00:22:06.460those books in the home and to have those conversations sort of neutrally when they're
00:22:12.000when they're little, I mean, I can remember my daughter loves when I talked about her like this,
00:22:15.820I'll tell you. But I can remember, you know, like when she was seven, we were sitting at dinner and
00:22:21.600all of a sudden she was like eating and all of a sudden the fork like paused halfway to her mouth
00:22:26.280and she kind of looked up, you know, into space and she said, well, I know it takes a sperm and
00:22:33.900an egg to make a baby, but how does the sperm get into the uterus? And my husband like gave me
00:22:41.920this look like and i i without because i was i knew i had prepared for this moment already we
00:22:48.140had planted the seeds even up to that point and i without missing me i said you know honey that is
00:22:52.160such a good question after dinner let's read your book and we can look at that part and you know and
00:22:58.020we had the ruby harris book and we looked at the part and they had you know and and and it just
00:23:01.980helped us with no and then of course then what happened was she had she had a friend who had
00:23:07.100two moms oh yeah and she was so she was she was like what about gideon and you're like different
00:23:15.480different science it's like well you know they uh gideon's moms had a helper um who who gave them
00:23:23.520some sperm and she said how and i said well you know they went to the doctor's office well how
00:23:29.160did the doctor get and i was like okay let's have a cookie that's enough of this conversation today
00:23:33.860i love it yes we we haven't got into the sex conversations but what what being ready for it
00:23:43.440but being ready for it being ready for it but having the books like those roby harris books
00:23:47.580they have just lovely little cartoons and they're not and they're appropriate they're age appropriate
00:23:51.940and you know so that you're never making it something that feels you know dirty or taboo or
00:23:58.260unspeakable when they're little. And then as they get older and things do become more complicated
00:24:04.080and all the things start happening, they know that they can come to you for somebody who they
00:24:14.880can talk to, who will not be judgmental, who has already shown openness. Because man, it gets
00:24:20.420harder. I know. Everyone keeps telling me that. I'm ready. I'm preparing for it. I'm really glad
00:24:27.640about the turn this conversation has taken,
00:24:54.360is you can keep your child from that as long as possible and then once they are gonna i mean it's
00:25:01.820a drag because you know they need to be online to do their school work and all these different
00:25:06.100things so you know our our tool of our work or our academic life has merged with the tool of
00:25:11.680our entertainment um and and that's tricky for all of us right for all of us um but for kids i
00:25:19.460think you know what i'm finding out i'm doing a project right now and we don't have to go here
00:25:26.780because that's going to scare you even more but i'm doing a project right now and young people
00:25:31.100in pornography and um the a lot of there i mean there's the whole point you know there's the whole
00:25:39.100like porno and all that but a lot of what they find initially is more like on youtube or social
00:25:45.580media. And so it's really, it's, I think, hard for us because we didn't grow up with it in the same
00:25:54.740way. But to be aware that these, you know, the algorithms, they take them down these rabbit
00:26:01.060holes and they'll keep feeding them and feeding them and feeding them more extreme material.
00:26:05.300And there just needs to be a lot of conversation, as much, you know, blocking or minimizing as you
00:26:13.820can do um for little for younger kids um i think it's really important um because the stuff that
00:26:19.820is going out to boys uh is is extreme um it's massage it's really misogynist um and and it can
00:26:28.940feel initially empowering um so i i just i i really i feel like for our generation of parents
00:26:40.140and you're even a generation of parents behind me because my daughter is you know in college now but
00:26:44.460um that we didn't we were completely unprepared for how much of our parenting job was managing
00:26:53.280media you know I mean I think that has become like an enormous part of our parenting job
00:27:00.720and something that we that that's hard to do because they're kind of ahead of us on that curve
00:27:05.620um but we it makes it all that it's like why i i just was um some of some reporter in the pacific
00:27:14.380northwest called me because some sheriff had gone into the public library and seen a book called um
00:27:23.920like deal with it i think it was called it was a book on female puberty from 1999 uh decided it
00:27:33.340was obscene checked it out the library and not brought it back as a as a and some other book
00:27:39.100too and it was like first of all i was like okay the books from 1999 has been there since 1999
00:27:44.280why is he suddenly doing this and why and like it's completely outdated anyway i would pull that
00:27:51.340book from the library for different reasons because you know social media hadn't even happened
00:27:54.780um so what is you know like it's not even helpful um but and i'm not sure kids go to
00:28:03.880the library anymore because they're all you know like like who but but and and and all of that i
00:28:08.580mean the the book banning thing is part of this national coordinated effort and this guy whether
00:28:11.920he is actively part of that effort or passively just you know himself consumes the media that
00:28:18.480gives him that idea ends up being part of the effort but the but the larger issue was i was
00:28:24.320like, you think that you, by taking some sex ed book out of the library, you're stopping kids
00:28:31.000from encountering this information because guess what? They've got a phone in their pocket and
00:28:37.800that phone is putting them in touch with so much that, I mean, you think if you don't talk about
00:28:44.320your child about sex, they're not going to find out about it or they're going to find out about
00:28:48.300it in some like natural, healthy way or, you know, figure it out. That's not going to happen.
00:28:55.000The way that they're going to find out about it is online and you don't have a choice. And that's
00:28:59.360the same thing with boys and masculinity and emotion, all that stuff. They are finding out
00:29:04.160such massive misinformation about so many things online that so much of our job as parents is to
00:29:09.080counterbalance that at this point and to make sure that we're inculcating them with positive values,
00:29:14.060with love, with kindness, with caring, with real human. I mean, I think I like most of that negative
00:29:19.740stuff on the internet. It's about undermining our humanity. And, you know, it's not, whether it's
00:29:27.400the masculinity stuff, the sex stuff, whatever it is, it's all about undermining humanity and
00:29:32.640human connection and compassion and listening to others and all the things that are so
00:29:39.260important to us. So just reinforcing those things constantly in our kids' lives becomes a big part
00:29:45.700of the task. You can't get rid of all the stuff online. It's whack-a-mole. But you can keep
00:29:51.320really strongly reinforcing your values and reminding them and educating them that what
00:29:57.440they see online is there to sell them things, whether it's an idea or a product.
00:30:04.920Time for a quick break. When we get back, we'll talk about finding positive role models for young
00:30:10.280boys online. Are there positive role models for young boys and like an influence for good that
00:30:30.860is say the opposite of the andrew tates yeah i mean i think they're you know you can find those
00:30:35.520all over you can find those online as well i mean there's some like there's some great ted talks
00:30:38.960like justin baldini you know um do you know him no you're telling no you're giving me so much
00:30:44.400so much he he is the guy did you ever watch oh shoot what's that called um kane the virgin yes
00:30:51.920yes well he's the the guy on jane the virgin okay he's actually a white guy but he's the guy0.76
00:30:58.700who plays the Latino guy. He is actually, of all things, he's Baha'i. And apparently Baha'i has
00:31:05.480really evolved ideas about masculinity. Who knew? And so he did this like beautiful, he did this0.99
00:31:11.060whole, he does a lot on masculinity. I think he has a book coming out on positive generative
00:31:17.140masculinity. There's some wonderful TED Talks for older boys. I don't know as much for younger boys,
00:31:22.760but there should be more like picture books and stuff. I feel like there's a number of
00:31:26.500things out there. You just have to be, it's the same as with girls, you know, to find, I mean,1.00
00:31:31.540there's actually, it's easier with girls. You can find more feminist stuff more easily. There's sort1.00
00:31:34.740of more of a, both a balance and a contradiction in the way that girls grow up. I think one thing0.89
00:31:39.160that social media actually can give us in a positive way, if we let it, is helping your
00:31:45.800child establish boundaries. And by learning to establish them with us as parents, that helps
00:31:49.740them establish them in other areas of their social media life as well. So it's really important to be
00:31:54.720able to help them and let them do that and to ask them you know to say when as you know what even
00:32:00.420when they're little i think you know you can say like can i and they can and they can say for
00:32:05.800whatever reason they feel like does it matter no say yes or no yeah exactly yeah we went we got
00:32:12.900into so we got into so many better topics than the roman empire today i know you said you wanted0.96
00:32:19.240to shoot the shit so i thought let's just do it let's just talk about what we're talking about0.99
00:32:23.040Oh, shit. And it was such good shit shooting. I loved it. I loved this conversation. I'm so happy that you came on, Peggy. Thank you so much.1.00
00:32:30.420This was super fun. Still, I'd like people to get Unraveling, even though we didn't talk about it.
00:32:34.620No, well, hey, look, no, as we end this conversation, tell me, tell the audience, because they love books. They love buying books. Tell us about Unraveling.
00:32:44.540so unraveling was i you know like everybody i i had been like traveling around the boys and sex
00:32:50.940had just come out and um lockdown happened life stopped terror set in all i could do i was a
00:32:57.540knitter all i could do is knit and talk to my mom who was dead so it was interesting that i spent the
00:33:02.060whole day talking to her um oh wow so you're knitting you were knitting and talking to your
00:33:05.760dead mom yeah um because um yeah and and but but i realized at a certain point that and that kept
00:33:13.760me calm. And I realized, even though my mom was not a calm person, but I realized that what I
00:33:18.500was doing, what I wanted was to talk to her. This thing that was in defiance of all laws of nature,
00:33:25.820I wanted to talk to her and for her to be my age and for me to be my age too. And so I was like
00:33:31.800taking both sides of this. And my mom had taught me to knit. That was why it was relevant. And in
00:33:38.000the book, there's this whole theme she learned from her mom because so many women learn from
00:33:42.160their moms. And I started breathing in SLSHM. And it became one big theme of this book. It's like
00:33:49.960what we learned from our moms, what we didn't learn, what we wish we learned, what we're sorry
00:33:53.880we learned, what we pass on to our daughters, what we do. I never taught my daughter to knit
00:33:58.140because I knit in a weird way. And I didn't want her to learn the way I learned. And I thought,
00:34:03.000well, that's a metaphor for the things that we don't want to pass along to our daughters that
00:34:07.240we learned that we want to stop with us um so that's a big thing but in the course of doing
00:34:12.680this thing um that i decided to do is everybody else was off baking sourdough i thought i know
00:34:17.000i'll learn to shear a sheep um because that's normal um yeah and i did this whole i don't know
00:34:23.120i had some like and this is back to the roman empire the thing i think about all the time
00:34:27.400every day laura engelswalder i think about laura engelswalder all the time all the time
00:34:32.960in ways that are good in ways that are bad in ways that she's problematic in ways that
00:34:37.180cheese, you know, all these different things. And one of them was like, OK, I'm stuck in Little
00:34:41.900House on the Prairie now because I've gone off on the covered wagon in COVID land and I can't
00:34:47.380be in touch with anybody anymore. And I'm going to learn how to do a Laura Ingalls Wilder thing.
00:34:52.280And I learned to shear sheep and process. And I did this whole thing. But it became so much about
00:34:57.280more than that. And that's why I think, I mean, you don't have to be a person, although I think
00:35:01.240a lot of us do do handcraft. And as women, it's a really important thing. And craft ties into
00:35:08.180witchcraft. And like, there's all these resonance to it. But it just became a lot for me about
00:35:15.060confronting transition in my life as a woman. And my dad was dying. My mom was dead. My daughter
00:35:24.100was leaving for college. I was in kind of disarray. That's why it's called unraveling.
00:35:29.800you know the world was falling apart around me it was also about learning to like we think
00:35:35.320we think about our food so much now you know so consciously and eco-consciously but we don't
00:35:40.040think about our clothes like why don't we think about our clothing the way we think about our
00:35:42.780food so a lot of it became about looking at the environmental impact of our clothing it became
00:35:47.820about thinking about what creativity means in both like personal ways and larger ways
00:35:52.220it became about all this history and lore and why like I said why the Greeks don't see blue
00:35:57.080and all this stuff so it was like all this stuff that ended up being in this book that was so much
00:36:01.980more than like a book is a braid and there's the part that you more but more than three strands
00:36:06.880there's the part that you know which was that I was going to do this project and then there was
00:36:10.840all the strands that I just didn't know and and all that ended up being like so much not I want
00:36:16.860to say more interesting but more surprising and not even more surprising just different and
00:36:22.120relevant and women's work and even the history. What did women do, Joe, when Trump was elected1.00
00:36:30.100president? We knit. We made pussy hats out of yarn. And there is a reason for that. There's a0.95
00:36:38.140reason that the first thing that women did was pick up knitting needles historically and culturally1.00
00:36:43.920and across, you know, across economics and across ethnicities. Our handcraft has been a way0.98
00:36:52.280that women, traditional handcraft, has expressed both dissent and patriotism politically and
00:36:57.780continues to be. Craftivism is a really big thing. And that, learning that whole history
00:37:04.200of women's labor was incredible. So there's like all these aspects of this book that were just
00:37:08.620super fun and interesting and kept me from complete despair during the year of lockdown.
00:37:13.920Peggy, I have a great, I have a great plan for getting Unraveled into more hands.
00:37:25.420Have you listened to our other podcast, Wilder, yet?
00:37:30.700Oh, I have. Wait, do you do Wilder? Is that you?
00:37:34.900Glynnis McNichol is the host of Wilder, and I created it with her. So I'm the executive producer of it.
00:37:40.580Oh, my God. I haven't. I got it. You want to know why I haven't?
00:37:45.420I'm so jealous that you thought of that idea that I have not been able to bring myself to listen to it because I can't believe I didn't think of it.
00:38:06.220I love my editor, but sometimes, and then it's too late for me to sell it elsewhere. And I wrote a piece on the Roman Empire. Yeah, you said that post. And so I wrote why I think about Laura Ingles Wilder all the time. And he sat on it. And now I don't know what to do about it.
00:38:27.020But it was pivoting off of men think about the Roman Empire.
00:38:33.640Was there something that women think about?
00:38:35.760It turns out it's Laura Ingalls Wilder.
00:38:37.460Like with all due respect to the Austenite and the Louisa May Alcott people, no shade.
00:39:21.900So I and my other my other great grandfather was a lumberjack, which is weird.
00:39:28.880You know, I'm Jewish and it's kind of a weird background.
00:39:30.760Not really. It's not weird if you're from where I'm from, but it's not Hester Street.
00:39:34.560And but my my grandfather grew up on the homestead in North Dakota.
00:39:38.860I grew up on those stories of raising the barns and picking the wild cherries and choke cherries and breaking the horses and then everybody dying and the crops all being leveled by hail.
00:39:49.320hail like all the awful too like all of it the grasshoppers yeah yeah in my grandfather's case
00:39:56.240it was hail um and because the dakotas is a terrible place to do that stuff terrible and
00:40:01.620and so i felt this kindred to laura in part because i i felt like i was not that far away from
00:40:09.180her um growing up with these stories in my life and then we had a butter churn in the kitchen
00:40:17.520growing up, which my mom would not let me actually use, but I would sit there and pretend to churn
00:40:23.280my butter. And, you know, I think we all boiled the maple syrup and poured it into the snow and
00:40:27.960lost all the maple syrup. And, you know, all the things we had, my mom liked, we had a wagon from
00:40:35.140a horse and buggy in the den. So I would sit on it and pretend to take my horses, you know, and
00:40:41.460go in my covered wagon. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I had a whole Laura life going on. So, yeah.
00:40:54.140We went to a lot of places today. We started out with the Roman Empire,
00:40:59.300made it to rigid and terrifying masculinity. And on that front, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry
00:41:04.740about subjecting all of you to this man, Andrew Tate, this man who is now in my feed. And it is
00:41:11.400some of the worst shit that I have ever seen. I hate that he's online. I hate that young boys1.00
00:41:17.540are watching him online. I hate everything about it. I do. I do. But at least we know. Now we know.
00:41:27.620And then this episode did go in a happier place. We talked about sheep shearing and knitting,
00:41:32.100which was nice. That was good for me. And as always, all points led to Laura Ingalls Wilder.
00:41:39.300because, yes, my takeaway is that Laura Ingalls Wilder is the Roman Empire for most women.
00:41:46.640It is. I really want to see Peggy's story about that.
00:41:49.840Go buy her book Unraveling and all her other books, Girls and Sex, Boys and Sex, and Cinderella Ape My Daughter.0.99
00:41:56.200Peggy is a treasure, and I am so grateful that she responded to my email and said she would shoot the shit with me.0.99