00:01:24.440somewhere. But she does have a little message for you. So we just wanted to play that.
00:01:29.260Hey, all. I miss you. I miss being on the road with you. I actually can't believe that it's been
00:01:37.380a year since we made this podcast. And it's funny because I've been on the road again,
00:01:43.500traveling on book tour for the Sicilian Inheritance. And every single place that I go
00:01:49.260all over the country. People ask me about the Wilder podcast, and people have their own stories
00:01:56.320of Laura Ingalls Wilder, and how much she touched them and how much she inspired them.
00:02:02.540It just reminds me how big Laura looms in our collective American imaginations and our
00:02:12.960mythologies. She's a force. Look, no one has forgotten Laura, but I do feel that we got to
00:02:21.560kind of bring her back into the zeitgeist and get people talking about her, about the good,
00:02:27.020the bad, the ugly, the inspirational, in a way that I really think she would have appreciated.
00:02:35.880I miss it. I miss you guys. I'm going to go watch some Michael Landon taking off his shirt and
00:02:41.700crying now it's funny on my phone in the last few weeks comes up the photo memories and can you
00:02:54.980believe it was more than two years ago we were on the road for this podcast it keeps sending me
00:03:00.640photos of us and just met South Dakota with you like with the mics and us standing in front of
00:03:05.780the cottonwood trees and at the pageant. And I'm like, wow, it's already been a year. And then I
00:03:12.240realized, no, it's already been two years. And then realizing the podcast has been out for over
00:03:19.460a year, which is amazing because it feels like another lifetime that it came out. I don't know
00:03:26.200if that's just the news cycle we've been living in America this year, but it feels
00:03:30.040like wildly distant. And it was even though it was such a huge undertaking and such like a joyful
00:03:37.120undertaking. I don't know. Does it feel like that to you? Yeah, it feels like there's two separate
00:03:42.020timelines. And there was the the making of the podcast and then the releasing the podcast.
00:03:47.940Everything we talked about has been so relevant in the past year with the crazy news cycle. I
00:03:52.720it's like there's not really a day that goes by that I don't think about all of the things that
00:03:56.300we saw and discussed in the entire show. I feel like the more distance we get from this podcast,
00:04:03.740the prouder I am of it. It's such a monumental undertaking and how fortunate we were to drive
00:04:10.780around the country and be in all those different places. So anyways, this is basically, we're doing
00:04:16.280a 50th anniversary Little House on the Prairie TV show special episode and also just congratulating
00:04:22.020ourselves on a podcast that we're really proud of. And on that note, just speaking of the road
00:04:30.120and speaking of everything that initially surprised us, as you can imagine, listeners,
00:04:35.600there is so, so many more hours of tape than what you actually heard go into the show. And I think
00:04:41.380it's like, it's one of the sad parts when you're making this at some of your favorite characters
00:04:45.400and your favorite places we went to or things that we learned just couldn't make it into the show.
00:04:51.520I was always the one being like, can we slide this in? Can we slide that in? And you're like, this is one episode. It cannot be four hours long because, A, you recorded everything on the road. Like, it's not an easy thing to always have everything miked for hours every day.
00:05:07.500but like we got so much good stuff but yeah i think first up i really wanted to do justice to
00:05:13.440all of the people in the towns who are benefiting off of laura tourism whether that's being
00:05:19.400dedicated to managing the houses or running the pageants or even just like the people who run the
00:05:25.300restaurants and the cafes in in this town that yeah they owe a lot of the most of their revenue
00:05:31.760in the summer probably to Laura Tourism and talking to them it always kind of astounded me
00:05:38.680that they weren't sick of it and they weren't that you know you saw like these usually generations
00:05:44.600of like mothers and children and you know family businesses of people that were just really
00:05:50.060dedicated to the cause. I think there was one good example of that in Pepin Lake Pepin in Wisconsin
00:05:56.120the town it just which is which was a cute little vacation town. Pepin was the first place where we
00:06:01.140really began to understand that people who lived in these places but weren't necessarily working
00:06:05.260directly with the houses all had positive feelings about Little House and Laura and what her legacy
00:06:12.040had brought to the town, which I thought was interesting because I could see a possibility
00:06:15.920of or the potential to be sort of resentful or tired of her. And meanwhile, I think everybody
00:06:21.460loved it. Our very first stop was this amazing cafe. And that was where we learned to just start
00:06:26.180asking everyone what they thought of Laura. This was one of our initial conversations with people
00:11:21.080I was also thinking of, remember when we were in Burr Oak, and they had the competition of the Laura and Almanzo competition, costume competition, but that people who won, it was almost like a Miss America setup.
00:11:34.660Like, people who won had responsibilities of visiting schools.
00:11:38.160like it was and burr oak isn't even it is so tiny it's not even incorporated like it's literally
00:11:43.980like a postage stamp of a handful of buildings and they held this competition and had really
00:11:50.920serious responsibilities to it and i just said yeah that should be in the olympics maybe we
00:11:55.080should like if they're gonna put breakdance in the olympics we should just you know petition
00:11:59.000the olympics to consider little house contests yeah yeah the other thing that i still can't get
00:12:06.400over about the road trip is we covered so much ground just going from Wisconsin to Minnesota
00:12:12.420to South Dakota. And then we ended up going over to Wyoming just to take in that stretch of the
00:12:18.880Americana of it all. And that was the first time I had seen that part of the country. And besides
00:12:25.940just being wowed by the Badlands, like I think I just said, wow, the entire time we were driving
00:12:31.900through it yeah wow it was the first time that it really hit me that i had only seen mythology
00:12:40.940of america like almost have only seen like the bastardization of it in old westerns and all of
00:12:48.020that and i had never seen the actual thing and you realize why oh yeah that that is so amazing i get
00:12:55.440why rich greedy white men just like wanted to destroy this place and make money off of it
00:13:00.920But it is, and which is tragic because it is some of the most beautiful places I've ever seen.0.72
00:13:07.420I mean, again, going back to driving across it, I think we, so many Americans and so many people around the world are sort of fed the postcard version of it.
00:13:18.300that becomes so familiar and two-dimensional and sometimes a caricature that when you actually go
00:13:24.920there to any of these places it is gobsmackingly beautiful and powerful and you're like oh
00:13:32.300it is an incredible country and it is gobsmacking and breathtaking and
00:13:36.360seeing it firsthand feels so necessary to me actually and smack dab in the middle of that
00:13:43.420after you get out of the Badlands, you get like a little bit cartoonish Disneyland, Old West
00:13:48.860location. Do you want to tell everyone about Waldrug, which is maybe by the thing that I'm
00:13:54.040most disappointed couldn't make it into the show because there wasn't really a place for it.
00:13:58.480I forgot that Waldrug didn't make it in. So the first time I went to Waldrug was,
00:14:02.360the first time I went to Waldrug was in 2002 before the internet. And the way I came to it
00:14:09.640was west to east and for wall drug there's all these hand-painted billboards for miles and miles
00:14:14.340and miles saying like come to wall drug five cent coffee come to wall drug all these things and so
00:14:19.240the build-up is so extraordinary and you pull in and it's just this like wild caricature of a wild
00:14:25.880west town um with all these buildings and like kitschy stuff and that crazy dining room uh
00:14:33.240And it's sort of the entryway to Rapid City, which has a bit of that same vibe to it, that very like Mount Rushmore kitschiness that is very, very, very American.
00:14:52.460And also in all, it's the Las Vegas of, you know, the Wild West and with all the problems that come with that.
00:15:00.520You're right. I mean, you go from wall drug, which it does feel like the Disneyland of rest stops. Like it literally has animatronics in if you go into the gift shop, there's a there's a glass wall and behind it is animatronics of just old like Western Western men just like playing banjo and singing a song.
00:15:20.940When I say it's so American, it's like, it's both the, what we talk about, like the extreme breathtaking beauty and openness and possibility and history and also the worst of America in terms of the extermination, the attempted extermination of Native Americans, of Buffalo, of the natural wonders.
00:15:45.120And also the overlayer of, you know, that that kitsch that sort of Las Vegas, but the West kitsch. And so it holds both of these things, which are both or all of these things, which are also American in the same place. And I think that is the real intensity and magic of it.
00:16:07.560And I don't mean magic in sort of like a frivolous way.
00:16:10.140I mean, like deep magic of being out there.
00:16:12.560And to some extent, you know, I think speaks to the enduring appeal of Little House because she's holding all of those things in the book at the same time, too.
00:16:37.560what are your feelings coming up on the 50th anniversary and your 50th birthday um i feel
00:16:57.880great about turning 50 and there's something very charming for me and having the 50th anniversary
00:17:03.180Like the show premiered one week after I was born. And so there's something delightful to me about having it. It's always existed, but like it's always been around. And I just think, oh, it's both a short period of time and such a long period of time.
00:17:19.580I just had this memory of remember when we got to De Smet and we were in the B&B and I hadn't
00:17:24.580watched the show like we've been so heavy in prep that I hadn't seen the show in a while
00:17:29.780remember when we turned it on the tv when we were in the B&B and like we're immediately
00:17:34.260engaged with it like immediately our heads whipped around and we were pulled in and it's just a
00:17:39.140reminder like it was such a good show we talked about all the problems with it as problems with
00:17:44.500everything but beyond the music paw one of the surprise takeaways for us anyway when we started
00:17:51.080doing our interviews for this podcast which we did so many interviews before we went out on the road
00:17:55.280was how many of the people who loved the book so much and had written about the book and were
00:18:01.200scholars of the book disliked the tv show and primarily disliked michael landon which i thought
00:18:08.160was fascinating because obviously we talked about this i loved both but michael landon in
00:18:14.220particular seemed to be Pa, his version of Pa Ingalls seemed to be a flashpoint for a number
00:18:19.940of people. I never liked the series ever because it didn't look right. You know, Michael Landon
00:18:28.140obviously looks nothing like Pa. It was so clearly a ego project for him that I just never liked it.
00:18:37.140I actually didn't like it because it was so different, Pa. I was like, who is this clean
00:18:42.800shaven. I just found Michael Landon. I just could not relate to him. And plus, they never moved out
00:18:50.760of Walnut Grove. They completely eliminated South Dakota. You know, he's such a kind of preening0.59
00:18:56.760presence in a way that I think would have been horrifying to Laura Ingalls Wilder. I think she
00:19:02.540would have been dumbstruck at that portrayal of her beloved father.
00:19:12.800love or hate what landon did with charles ingalls he like michael landon is is one of the main
00:19:19.200reasons that everything still persists oh for sure the tv show gave the books in a whole new life
00:19:25.360and continues to do so because it's on tv all the freaking time and um to to my to mine and our
00:19:31.920delight yeah yeah why it's been on my mind is tim waltz the vp candidate with kamala uh
00:19:39.940is he's not from man uh he's not from mankato but he spent he's from nebraska but he spent most of
00:19:47.700his adult life in mankato before becoming governor uh which as people who listen to the podcast know
00:19:53.060there's an entire episode where we're primarily in mankato and people who watch the television
00:19:57.560show know that they're always going to mankato to buy something or sell something or whatever
00:20:01.860and then the wagon falls off the side of the road and someone almost dies and like mary's glasses
00:20:06.300set the whole place on fire. Like Mankato figures into this as a destination. But as I was thinking
00:20:12.680about, you know, Rebecca Tracer, who was on the podcast, wrote a piece for New York Magazine
00:20:18.260recently about the different versions of masculinity the Republicans are providing
00:20:23.800and the Democrats are providing and talking about sort of the Tim Waltz masculinity.
00:20:29.220And in some ways, it really reminded me of the Michael Landon version of masculinity. Not that
00:20:34.880Tim Walz is taking off his shirt and like glossing up his pecs or whatever but like the masculinity
00:20:40.380the the ability to be to to provide an idea of masculinity that also allows for emotion and
00:20:49.300sensitivity and Michael Landon's Paw Ingalls was like as we know and have discussed was crying in
00:20:55.220nearly every episode as like a show of strength and it really it's interesting because the show
00:21:02.780itself i think appealed in its day to conservative groups and we know ronald reagan it was his
00:21:08.760favorite show but we're obviously in a much different time of what who and what gets defined
00:21:13.740as conservative and i was just like there's something a little tim waltzy about michael
00:21:18.080landon's pa ingles and maybe vice versa and it seems like it just struck me as so interesting
00:21:23.820especially with the like mankato connection someone should write that the mankato connection
00:21:29.620of Charles, of Pa, of Michael Landon's Charles Ingalls
00:23:28.720But I did pretend to be paralyzed and ruin everyone's life.0.99
00:23:32.560In most episodes, Nellie does things to ruin Laura's life and make her miserable.0.95
00:23:37.120but in bunnies the only episode nelly's insane behavior actually impacts everyone so yeah she
00:23:46.240has it coming she has it coming and i'll tell you um alison got her revenge um many years ago i had
00:23:54.500to go in for a colonoscopy and um she took me and when it was over they wouldn't let me walk out of
00:24:01.960the surgery center, I had to go out in a wheelchair and she pushed it. And she kept threatening to0.97
00:24:07.460shove me down a number of different hills that day. Even though I didn't, I said, I, you know,
00:24:13.240it's not my fault. I didn't write it. Tell them to let me do that. The other thing I hear about
00:24:17.900a lot too is the mud fight. People like a lot when Allison and I got physical.1.00
00:24:24.940We hear that from a lot of fans. And I think it was having girls express sort of like complicated
00:24:30.000emotions to each other and that jealousy and competition, which felt very recognizable at
00:24:35.520that age. I think the other thing that informed those performances and maybe the audience was
00:24:43.720getting it subliminally was that we really loved each other dearly. And I've always said, you know,
00:24:50.760you don't really have to necessarily get along all that well with someone you're doing a love
00:24:55.260scene with, but boy, you have to love and trust the person you're doing a fight scene with.
00:24:58.900we thought it was so funny because we bonded right away and then the idea that regularly
00:25:04.740every few episodes we'd hit each other in the face was like awesome um so we got a fight scene
00:25:10.700coming up and it was funny because like the very first fight scene they were very careful there was
00:25:14.800a stunt girl to do one of the falls so i wouldn't hit my head and then but like after that they went
00:25:20.360and we pretty much were choreographing our own fights um and they just didn't need stunts for
00:25:25.700that uh the mud fight's all us they're just not that the famous mud fight they're like yeah you
00:25:30.920guys got this whatever and they're just like do do do whatever the hell you want to do and we did
00:25:37.480and we had so much fun and we thought it was so funny to play these mortal enemies and do all
00:25:43.020this terrible stuff and then but it was weird because these scenes where i'd be saying things
00:25:47.520and she's crying and we're going out for slurpees later my other favorite actor to just learn more
00:26:02.880about her story was karen grassley and how yes her she as a person was so polar opposite of
00:26:10.160caroline ingles and she was part part of the free sex movement she was in berkeley she was an actor
00:26:16.480She was like doing all these things. And also, I think if you read her book, which which I highly recommend, she talks about her entire life.
00:26:24.560And if you have any interest in, you know, 60s arts and counterculture, definitely read it.
00:26:30.180Yeah, it was not progressive where Caroline Ingalls was. And I think it's interesting, though, because I don't know.
00:26:34.820I mean, she played the character that was written for her on a show that was huge.
00:26:40.080But, you know, the Waltons were on at the same time and the mother in the Waltons, that character was much more feminist, you know, she and so that is one of the major issues with Michael Landon was he was open minded in so many ways, but not about grown women.
00:26:58.120It's just worth pointing that out because I think she was in a tough position of making those decisions as a working actor to get that show that sets you up for life and allows a lot of choices.
00:27:10.080The little woman had never been my goal. And so there were times when the choices offered to Carolyn in the script rankled.
00:27:24.080Let me give you an example. And this is not at all a criticism.
00:27:28.400This is just an example of how Michael knew his vision, and he knew what he wanted, and in fact, was well connected to his audience.
00:27:42.300early on this is. Carolyn has the scene in the morning of finishing those braids and getting
00:27:51.260those scrambled eggs on and packing those lunches and rescuing the three-year-old who's climbing up
00:27:58.580the stairs and keeping her from putting her hands by the fire and finally the girls have their coats
00:28:05.880on and their little lunches and they're going out the door and my reaction was oh thank goodness
00:28:13.600we did it and Michael said ah no you look out the door you watch them going and you smile
00:28:24.060because they're so lovely and that's what we did so there were times when I couldn't influence
00:28:33.180what I believed about the hard work that a mother does,0.94
00:28:39.060that a woman cooking on a fire does.1.00
00:29:02.260What are your favorite episodes with respect to them getting it?1.00
00:29:06.720Well, Olsen versus Olsen, where the women all go on strike. That was our idea, a friend of mine and I, and she consequently became a staff writer on Little House. Yeah, I was very proud that Chris Abbott came on.
00:29:25.200And then I think it was our very close to our final show, if not our final show, where Laura and I have a nice scene where we acknowledge our contribution and she says something like they couldn't have done it without us.
00:29:43.640But, you know, I respect also this traditional role that women have played.
00:29:50.520And, I mean, for God's sake, these women who helped settle the country, they were so strong.
00:30:00.400When I read this book called Pioneer Women, it said that if a woman at that time lost her husband, she just went on.
00:30:11.960But if a man lost his wife, he wrote immediately for a mail-order bribe because he simply could not handle it alone.
00:30:27.300Someone that you might not expect was as badass in her day as she was because she's so perfect and loving and warm on the show is Charlotte Stewart, who was Miss Beetle.
00:30:37.500And we got to meet her in Mansfield pretty much by accident.
00:30:41.540We were in Mansfield during Wilder Days.
00:30:44.060She was kind of the big guest that they had, and she was there to do signings and everything.
00:30:49.360And we got invited to a little reception where we got to sit down and speak to her.
00:30:54.140So that is why this tape might be a little noisy, the tape that we're about to play you.
00:31:00.340Alison Arngrim, you know, she is at all of the conventions and everything.
00:31:04.560And when she first described to us people's reaction to Charlotte, she said it's in line.
00:31:10.700It's men in Eraserhead T-shirts crying to her and telling them how much they loved her as this Beatle while they're in their full like David Lynch get up because she worked with David Lynch.
00:34:06.760Well, we're also, because I mean, people still today are like, oh, that was so wholesome and a little too mushy, but like it's having some big issues.
00:34:13.780And I meet people all the time who I remind them of when they used to watch the show with their grandparents, you know, and they get very emotional.
00:34:29.420We drive to Memphis tomorrow evening, and then we're going to Gracely on Sunday.
00:36:39.680It was funny that we found out we had absolutely no clue she had ever worked with Elvis and we
00:36:45.020were actually going to be on our way to Graceland like in the next day or so.
00:36:50.460What do you think was your favorite part of doing this whole podcast? That's a big question
00:36:57.300because this is a yeah I mean the road trip my favorite part was going to a random place even
00:37:03.520the places that were a little more out of the way like past South Dakota or going from Missouri over
00:37:09.660to Tennessee when we would just start having conversations with someone make sure in every
00:37:14.580conversation to bring up Laurie Ingalls Wilder and usually someone did have a connection with her
00:37:18.780it was the serendipitous thing of yeah she she is everywhere yeah I'm trying to think what my
00:37:25.360favorite part was i think my favorite part was i think pepin surprised me the most and then our
00:37:31.400drive from huron to buffalo wyoming because it's the emptiest part of the country and when ranger
00:37:37.780tanya actually was one of my most favorite parts of our road trip because i think she was such a
00:37:43.580surprise and such a delight and so that's the word i'm looking for reaffirming where i'd like
00:37:49.660to begin where i'd love to begin is in 1492 columbus sails the ocean blew a 400 year resistance
00:37:56.080up until this is like a bravery to the way she was you know talking about the history at the
00:38:03.740battle of little bighorn site and she's just she was so delightful when she got on the podcast
00:38:08.040with us so she was one of my favorite parts and then i think in the recording when we moved to
00:38:12.480cdm studios in terms of like actual work experience and having such a high-end facility
00:38:18.440and working with such kind people like I think it comes through on the podcast that we actually
00:38:23.380in the recording of it we're having a lot of fun too and working with so many people who took
00:38:27.780such great care to make sure that the product was high quality yeah I do want to give a big
00:38:34.720shout out to all of our amazing producers and editors and mixers that worked on this because
00:38:39.400I'll say it a million times podcasts are not easy to make especially this kind of podcast
00:38:44.780And it takes it really does take a village. And yeah, coming into CDM and immediately getting more ears on things and more opinions is always a good thing.
00:38:55.500It shows you where you're where you're coming through, not coming through, gives you validation that like, yeah, this isn't interesting.
00:39:00.760It was such a team effort. And everyone on the team took such great care with the whole podcast. There's so much depth to all of the intelligence and attention to detail and determination to make this really good that came through in the final product that I just want to make sure that people are aware.
00:39:22.980Like this, this was a huge undertaking and everybody involved in it was willing to go the distance with it, which is amazing because as Joe and I talked about endlessly, that degree of support, you know, is rare, not just in podcast world, but in like media, creative or otherwise in general.
00:39:44.900And so we were so fortunate to be able to have that backing for this project, which needed it.
00:39:50.580yeah yeah i'm so grateful that we got to make this and then it gives us a chance to sit here
00:39:55.640and chat so thank you for chatting glennis this is delightful and thank you to everyone who
00:40:01.280listened to this podcast and provided feedback positive or otherwise it's so gratifying to have
00:40:07.700something you worked this hard on be engaged with and um we're so thankful that people have
00:40:17.240taken the time to listen to it. This is not, this isn't, this podcast is an undertaking as a
00:40:22.520listener too. So thank you everyone. We're just, we wanted to come back and follow up basically
00:40:27.340to say that like, here's extra stuff. And also we're so grateful that it resonated.
00:40:40.500Thanks everyone for listening. This episode was hosted by Glenis McNichol and me,
00:40:45.800Emily Marinoff. It was produced by me, mixing and mastering done by Vahid Frazier.
00:41:15.800Now is now. It can never be a long time ago. It's just two years ago.