Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - December 08, 2024


Sunday Nice Things: Basket Case

Topics
Suffs Broke Open My Soul, An Interview with Nikki James Ballerina Farm's Latest Flex

Episode Stats


Length

37 minutes

Words per minute

175.57

Word count

6,634

Sentence count

428

Harmful content

Misogyny

19

sentences flagged

Toxicity

17

sentences flagged

Hate speech

30

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 Hey, y'all. Joe here, and you're listening to Sunday Nice Things from Under the Influence.
00:00:12.740 I've one baby asleep right now, one kid at basketball practice, and the other one out
00:00:18.260 at the playground with a friend. It's a little like heaven over here. I just did my nails and
00:00:23.020 put on a face mask, and I'm popping this podcast into your feed. Because women be multitasking 1.00
00:00:27.820 all the time, all the time. Today, I'm sharing one of my favorite podcasts about mental health. 1.00
00:00:34.220 It's called Basket Case. It's a series hosted by Nicole Kelly, you might know her better as NK,
00:00:40.920 that decodes the kaleidoscope of mental health. It uncovers all of the ways that our brain contorts
00:00:46.320 our reality through original reporting, tender conversations, and deeply personal explorations.
00:00:53.140 On this episode, we meet Bertrana.
00:00:55.400 Her autism has made her obsessed with finding out the truth about neurodiversity.
00:00:59.820 I hope you love it, and if you do, you can find Basket Case wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:05.100 Have a great Sunday, guys. 0.88
00:01:09.180 Hey, it's NK.
00:01:11.080 Basket Case gets into some heavy topics about mental health, but keep in mind that I'm not a mental health professional.
00:01:16.900 So in the description of this and every episode,
00:01:19.760 I'll leave you a list of relevant resources
00:01:21.580 and links to the things I'm reading.
00:01:23.940 And while you're listening, take care.
00:01:26.880 Um, is there anything that I haven't asked you about
00:01:30.340 that you wanted to talk about?
00:01:32.440 Yeah, the horoscopes, if I'm being real.
00:01:34.280 I'm a Libra sun and rising and a Leo moon. 0.97
00:01:37.340 Venus rule, you better work, Aphrodite.
00:01:41.660 Ooh, okay, that's cool, that's cool.
00:01:43.260 That's really, like, I feel like you really compliment yourself.
00:01:45.660 I am a Leo, which is the sun, and my moon is Cancer, which is the moon, right?
00:01:52.540 And my rising is Pisces, which is actually the ocean.
00:01:55.660 A lot of people would be like, do you think the world revolves around you?
00:01:58.280 And I'm like, I am the sun and the moon, baby.
00:02:00.000 It does.
00:02:00.960 Dare night.
00:02:01.460 Dare night.
00:02:02.280 Wear some sunglasses.
00:02:03.100 It's blinded, baby.
00:02:03.800 That's not my fault.
00:02:07.280 What a person's going to want me.
00:02:09.300 What a person's going to want me.
00:02:11.080 What a person's going to want me.
00:02:12.880 What a person's going to want me.
00:02:14.560 So you know how there's this really prominent set of tropes and characteristics that we
00:02:33.460 tend to associate with autism? The autistic savant, like Rain Man as portrayed by my personal short
00:02:40.440 King, Dustin Hoffman. Or the extremely direct and supercilious physicist on that one extremely 1.00
00:02:48.100 popular network sitcom about all the nerds and their one hot neighbor. Or the Netflix series
00:02:53.500 about a teenage boy with a penguin obsession whose sensory sensitivities or disruptions to routine
00:02:59.460 often lead to dramatic and painful public outbursts. I love that one actually. But what do
00:03:05.500 each of these examples have in common? That's right, they're all white dudes. The way that 0.55
00:03:11.660 cisgender white autistic men are overrepresented in mainstream media simply reflects the way that
00:03:18.200 white autistic men are still overrepresented in autism research. That's one of the reasons these 0.80
00:03:24.500 stereotypes about autism are so persistent. In women and girls, autism often presents in ways 0.80
00:03:30.620 that go undetected by medical professionals, by teachers, or even their own parents.
00:03:36.260 And that's even more true for autistic Black women and girls, because when the scientific
00:03:40.900 research about autism doesn't include Black participants at all, then the literature and
00:03:46.340 diagnostic materials don't include them either. So I was looking for Black autistic women to follow
00:03:54.120 on social media because I was wondering, is masking different than code switching? Or
00:04:00.120 is there a Black way to STEM? And at that time, a Black autistic femme was hard for me to imagine 1.00
00:04:06.040 until I found Bertrana. Do you know how autistic you have to be? 0.95
00:04:12.220 As like a Black woman for doctors to actually diagnose you with autism as a child? Like, 1.00
00:04:18.080 I was, I was giving spectrum. 0.97
00:04:21.340 Prashana is a 20-something med student who lives in the U.S. 1.00
00:04:25.120 She's Black, a woman, and autistic, and also kind of a baddie. 0.99
00:04:30.780 I found her on TikTok. 1.00
00:04:32.220 We're not even going to get into the intersectionalities of race and autism. 0.54
00:04:36.280 People just a little bit posterior.
00:04:37.940 Well, anyways, I actually was diagnosed.
00:04:39.320 And when we eventually talked for real, she told me that being neurodivergent is a slept-on superpower.
00:04:45.600 Yes.
00:04:46.120 I think there's a lot more self-awareness that goes into neurodivergent people.
00:04:50.100 It's like that white dude that takes acid and is like,
00:04:52.180 oh my god, I understand empathy now. 0.91
00:04:53.500 It's like, babe, we've been there, but glad you're on the train, you know?
00:04:56.900 She also told me she was going to lie down during our chat,
00:04:59.200 and to be honest, I didn't feel like telling her not to.
00:05:02.240 This is Basket Case. I'm NK,
00:05:04.560 Venusian sad girl genius with a thing for Plutonian transits.
00:05:08.540 If you know, you know. 0.60
00:05:11.340 Okay, here's an interesting fact about Leos and their pride.
00:05:14.620 you'll notice that there's only one man in leo pride and that's not by accident they'll have sons
00:05:19.860 but once the son like reaches a certain age they fight the sons keep their place in the pride
00:05:24.680 because they're only one man allowed my mother's also a leo and and i feel like that's what it
00:05:31.460 kind of was my life my mother was my first bully and i think she didn't want me to reach my power
00:05:35.300 so i wasn't really allowed to be like a leo so it's like as fun as bubbly as i was who i am now
00:05:41.820 was not the person I was allowed to be when I was young. 0.83
00:05:44.880 No Tino Shay, that woman had some demons 0.99
00:05:46.880 before I got on this earth.
00:05:50.200 Vertrana remembers that the household
00:05:51.760 was governed by a rigid set of religious beliefs,
00:05:55.020 beliefs that couldn't ever be questioned.
00:05:57.480 But she also remembers that for her,
00:05:59.640 there was another set of rules
00:06:00.900 about where she could go, who she could talk to.
00:06:03.820 She wasn't really allowed to leave the house
00:06:05.560 to play with other kids.
00:06:06.880 And on the rare occasion kids came to her house,
00:06:09.440 they weren't allowed to stay long.
00:06:11.260 Like, I would like to say the household was like that, but it wasn't the household.
00:06:14.600 It was me.
00:06:15.400 As a kid, Bertrana didn't know she was autistic.
00:06:18.080 But her mom and her older sisters did.
00:06:20.380 Because, as it turns out, Bertrana's autism was so apparent,
00:06:24.280 she was giving so much spectrum that she had been diagnosed as a toddler.
00:06:29.000 I look back at my childhood and I see I was giving textbook autism.
00:06:33.280 Like, I would stand on my CV tools. 0.94
00:06:34.600 I didn't like hanging out with kids.
00:06:35.460 I had extremely special interests.
00:06:37.700 And other people already knew something was weird about me, right?
00:06:40.380 Bertrana's family hid her autism from her and also tried to hide it from everyone else.
00:06:47.660 Do you remember the moment in childhood where you, like, gained consciousness? 0.99
00:06:50.580 And, like, you were like, oh, shit, I'm in this bitch. 0.99
00:06:52.380 Like, I'm living. 1.00
00:06:53.480 What was that moment for you?
00:06:54.980 That moment for me, it's going to get a little dark, girl.
00:06:57.080 We can move past it.
00:06:57.720 Bertrana was around four years old, and she remembers this as an out-of-body experience,
00:07:02.440 a moment of sudden and brutal self-awareness.
00:07:05.120 I remember gaining consciousness and then my two older sisters laughing at me while my mother was screaming at me.
00:07:12.580 She remembers seeing the entire scene as if from outside herself.
00:07:16.220 And that was the first time I realized my family is making fun of me right now.
00:07:21.980 Although she wouldn't have the language for it until many, many years later, the experience taught her something about her place in the family.
00:07:29.540 That it was something more than her being the youngest that made them treat her the way they did.
00:07:33.480 So I started, like, crying, like, crying so heavily that I couldn't breathe.
00:07:39.320 I remember the shock on their face. 0.99
00:07:40.700 I was like, oh, shit, like, she knows what's going on. 0.99
00:07:42.620 Like, oh, my God. 1.00
00:07:43.760 Oh, my God.
00:07:44.800 To survive at home, she stayed vigilant, noticing, following her mom's rules, and trying to decipher the unspoken expectations.
00:07:53.140 But trying to keep track of all that was confusing and exhausting.
00:07:56.960 So she also kept to herself as much as possible.
00:08:00.360 And that time she spent alone provided her only sense of escape from a difficult home life.
00:08:05.100 So I think the majority of the time I would be off by myself because I was like, this is a lot.
00:08:08.600 I don't really want to be around people.
00:08:10.240 I knew I wanted to learn things.
00:08:11.840 I was like, yeah, there's something about this world.
00:08:14.140 I need to understand that y'all can't teach me in this house.
00:08:18.780 As autism has gained acceptance and wider visibility,
00:08:22.320 a lot of autistic people celebrate their special interests,
00:08:25.440 an intense affinity or infatuation with something that they wind up knowing a lot about.
00:08:30.340 For Bertrana, that special interest was the universe itself.
00:08:34.260 So astrology in itself is like the study of the stars, right, and the moon,
00:08:37.940 and like figuring out how that correlates to us as human beings, right?
00:08:40.900 I liked horoscopes when I was like six and had this book,
00:08:43.980 The Months All Are Designated, and that's how I found out I was a Leo.
00:08:46.960 And I just found that book to be so interesting at such a young age.
00:08:49.960 And again, like, I just know that I don't know something that I need to know.
00:08:53.800 But in her mom's religious household, birthstones and astrology were sus.
00:08:58.660 My mother was a very difficult person, so everything was demonic.
00:09:02.520 She was like, this is a Satan.
00:09:03.580 It's like, girl, it's crystals.
00:09:05.980 Where does that say that in the Bible?
00:09:07.820 Suspecting that her family could only provide her with the limited version of the capital T truth,
00:09:12.920 she started asking questions.
00:09:14.860 I started needing to find the truth to understand if God was even real at a young age
00:09:20.220 because it was kind of like trying to understand my situation and why.
00:09:23.800 I was going through what I was going through.
00:09:25.900 I found myself kind of being like, God, why me?
00:09:28.020 Why is this happening to me?
00:09:29.300 I don't deserve this happening to me.
00:09:31.700 And I think that was what allowed my special interests to become the concept of life.
00:09:36.900 So when I was growing up, I kind of started to do my own research.
00:09:39.380 I don't feel like God would do that.
00:09:41.020 God wants me to find the truth.
00:09:42.320 They don't want me to just have my religion be right.
00:09:44.860 They want me to know the truth.
00:09:45.920 That's the point of us being on this earth, to find out the truth.
00:09:49.300 Pertrana started putting together a theory of how the world worked,
00:09:52.600 building her own cosmology, one which was fluid and plural,
00:09:56.120 constantly in flux, forever adaptable to new information.
00:10:00.360 So, like, people who are autistic really, really crave routine, right? 1.00
00:10:04.400 And because my family was a very chaotic family, 1.00
00:10:07.680 my routine was nothing will ever be the same.
00:10:10.720 Like, the routine was never, ever assume that this is going to stay the same.
00:10:15.140 Because it won't.
00:10:15.960 Expect inconsistency.
00:10:17.300 Yes, expect inconsistency, right? So with that becoming the basis, like I was always willing to hear a religious concept. Like I was like, yeah, like I don't I don't think mine is the most right. I'm willing to hear yours and grab from it and like look into the truth. And I think that because I had that concept of like nothing is ever going to be the same, that I was okay with consistently changing my concept of religion and how God worked and what God was.
00:10:44.780 When Bertrana was in middle school, she moved to Connecticut with her family.
00:10:48.520 She was one of the only black kids in the school.
00:10:51.140 Then they moved to inner Philly, where she wasn't.
00:10:53.560 But it didn't really make a difference. 0.73
00:10:55.360 Kids are mean, girl.
00:10:57.360 People just targeted me. It was so weird. It was so weird.
00:11:01.340 Bertrana sensed that at school, there were also rules.
00:11:05.700 Expectations about how she was supposed to act, supposed to talk.
00:11:09.260 What she was supposed to like and not like.
00:11:11.700 But what those rules were, she didn't know.
00:11:13.780 she could only guess. Even simple things, like when she should laugh, were mystifying to her.
00:11:19.560 And, call it instinct, but Petrana also knew that knowing the rules and then following them
00:11:24.660 was primarily what made social belonging possible. She knew that being part of the
00:11:29.160 group was safer, and that being excluded left her vulnerable to threat.
00:11:34.600 Personally, I don't trust anyone who claims to have enjoyed middle school,
00:11:38.040 solely because it was one of the worst eras of my life, thanks to both braces, my mom's choice,
00:11:43.280 and JNCO jeans, a choice which was, unfortunately, my own. At that age, I think everyone feels on
00:11:50.580 some level that not belonging is really scary. And I think sometimes that fear manifests as
00:11:56.220 cruelty towards the people who most remind us that our belonging is precarious. It manifests
00:12:01.600 as cruelty towards people like Bertrana. There was one time in sixth grade, I had this really
00:12:08.180 bad botch perm that my mother gave me. So you know how we had those like ponytail extensions,
00:12:13.520 right? Some girl came up and pulled the ponytail off of me and ran around the recess room with it, 1.00
00:12:18.980 right? It was like, damn, like, I just don't want to fight. I really just want to get this work done 0.98
00:12:25.340 and go back to the other awful home I had. Like a lot of autistic people, she did her best to 1.00
00:12:30.940 compensate, to mask, to conform. I watched a lot of TV and I feel like that's what helped me 1.00
00:12:36.560 understand social cues especially with like sitcom shows it's oh you can understand sarcasm
00:12:40.960 because they put the like audience laughing cue right afterwards things like that help you
00:12:45.640 decipher what's actually going on but to the other kids there was something off about her
00:12:50.960 something different that was somehow both obvious but difficult to articulate
00:12:55.860 an uncanny valley experience and i think around 13 is when i started to like actually adjust i
00:13:03.320 I think that's when I started being, like, able to mask well enough that, like, I had friends and, like, even if I was deemed different, it was more like a quirky, not a, like, different that people couldn't describe.
00:13:14.160 But then Bertrana's mom told her something surprising, something that made sense.
00:13:19.100 That's coming up after the break.
00:13:22.480 When Bertrana was 13, she was in the living room with her mom, watching TV.
00:13:27.160 When suddenly her mom announced that Bertrana had been diagnosed as autistic when she was a toddler.
00:13:33.320 and that everyone else in the family knew, except Pertrana.
00:13:37.960 Her mom waited for a reaction, but Pertrana wasn't sure how to react.
00:13:43.000 She didn't really understand why her mother was telling her this
00:13:45.820 and why now, after all this time.
00:13:49.460 I think she wanted me to be like, oh, how could you?
00:13:51.560 Like, why didn't you tell me?
00:13:52.960 And I think she might have expected me to blow up on her.
00:13:56.420 So I kind of was like, oh, wow, okay, all right.
00:14:03.320 in that moment like the moods shifted and she kind of like was upset that she didn't get the
00:14:09.460 reaction she wanted out of me you know a lot of times I think people do things expecting you to
00:14:15.720 read between the lines right and with autism like you don't even view a social hierarchy like those
00:14:21.380 concepts don't really exist to you so I think like a normal person would have understood like
00:14:27.680 this is someone trying to taunt you but in my mind I was kind of like she's just telling you
00:14:32.160 this fact. But like, I also, I think at this point had been conditioned to know that you don't ask
00:14:38.020 her questions and actually get the truth. I was like, girl, you could have, you could have told
00:14:42.480 me before him, you could have helped me. Because that explanation would have helped me make a lot
00:14:47.180 more sense navigating like my childhood and adolescence. But she told me once I had learned
00:14:52.620 to mask. Bertrana became even more focused on plotting her escape. She understood that her
00:14:57.960 intelligence and good grades were currency, the only thing she could rely on. Being a good student
00:15:03.660 was the only escape hatch she could think of. Like, I would cry if I got a B because I was like,
00:15:08.460 yo, how can I get into a great college? Like, I was like already under the understanding that my
00:15:12.200 family is not going to help me. But I always understood, like, I'm going to leave, y'all.
00:15:17.160 She did get into a good college, where she majored in biology and started thinking about med school.
00:15:22.180 She got a job doing neurological research about the ways binge drinking and THC affect the brain.
00:15:27.760 And as graduation approached, she applied to join the Peace Corps.
00:15:31.500 Not long after graduation... 1.00
00:15:33.180 Mind you, again, cum laude, bitch. Did it. 1.00
00:15:35.220 She was headed to a village in the southern Lusaka province of Zambia.
00:15:43.020 Zambia. Okay, what was that like?
00:15:44.380 I loved it, girl. I loved it. Like, like...
00:15:48.860 As a Peace Corps volunteer, Verchana was part of a cohort of community health workers.
00:15:54.200 I got to learn the language, which was Tonga.
00:15:56.020 and I lived in a village in a hut.
00:15:58.160 The village was off-grid with no running water
00:16:00.360 and solar-powered lights.
00:16:02.340 It was, yeah, it was beautiful.
00:16:03.800 The people there are so compassionate as well.
00:16:06.640 Zambia is a landlocked country in Southern Africa,
00:16:09.660 a country known for its safe communal feeling
00:16:11.980 and for being home to a vast array of wildlife.
00:16:15.220 The tropical climate nurtures more than 3,500 species
00:16:18.520 of wildflowering plants.
00:16:20.580 Lions, leopards, and zebras roam its many national parks
00:16:23.900 and wildlife preserves, crocodiles and hippos swim in the rivers. Zambia might best be known
00:16:29.700 for its famed Victoria Falls, a curtain of water forming a truly spectacular natural border between
00:16:35.640 Zambia and Zimbabwe. Local tribes call the beautiful explosion of mist and water the smoke
00:16:41.820 that thunders. And above the land, in the sky above the Zambian countryside, there are the
00:16:48.420 constellations, the Southern Cross and the Pleiades Star Cluster, Canis Major, which contains the
00:16:54.820 brightest star in the night sky, the Dog Star. In fall, there was Leo, recognizable by its sickle
00:17:01.380 shape, and there was also Phoenix, named for the mythical bird that rose from its own ashes.
00:17:08.040 The Zambian night sky contained more stars than Bertrana had ever seen.
00:17:13.140 Personally, I've never felt more safe, and I've also never felt more like not an other.
00:17:18.260 No one was sizing her up, deciding how to treat her based on her ability to follow often unspoken social expectations.
00:17:25.140 Bertrana was struck by that kindness. It wasn't what she was used to.
00:17:29.060 They see difference as, oh, innovation. You know what I mean? Difference is innovation. Difference means like a new way to do something.
00:17:35.560 For the first time in her life, she felt a sense of belonging.
00:17:39.340 I don't feel like I ever masked, but I don't feel like I was ever more myself than when I was in Zambia.
00:17:47.220 Away from the overstimulating lights and noise of Philly,
00:17:50.260 away from the U.S., away from her family for the first time,
00:17:54.000 Bertrana felt safe.
00:17:55.880 For a solid two years.
00:17:57.380 I think it really helped my nervous system regulate again.
00:18:01.240 Each night, Bertrana would eat dinner with her host family.
00:18:04.240 And after dinner, there'd be music.
00:18:07.060 So the kids would come over at night and we would have dance parties.
00:18:11.280 We would wind our hips.
00:18:12.340 there was this girl a little girl named mary in the village she had like wisdom and she could
00:18:19.440 whine girl it's better than me i was like okay not too much no don't don't embarrass me so it'd
00:18:24.260 be like like you know after an hour of eating and an hour of dancing and having a really beautiful
00:18:28.960 community i remember being like overwhelmed with like good emotion but also like not understanding
00:18:37.000 why like you ever have like a really great day with your friends and then you leave them and
00:18:41.160 you kind of are sad. Feeling welcome, being celebrated, accepted by her host family and a
00:18:47.180 whole community. It was an unfamiliar feeling and not totally comfortable. I'm in my head though and
00:18:52.720 I can hear them. I hear like tears of children, you know, giggles of children, music looking out
00:18:58.200 the window. And like, I remember seeing so many stars. With their laughter in the background,
00:19:03.520 Bertrana's thoughts returned to her own girlhood. It was during the time of Peace Corps that I
00:19:08.240 I started, like, not getting the oppressed memories fully back, but like I said, I'd have photos.
00:19:13.100 Bertrana says that for a long time, she only remembered her childhood in photos.
00:19:17.420 Flashes of static images, like postcards from her subconscious that she didn't want to read.
00:19:22.660 In Zambia, those images began to animate and become memories.
00:19:26.960 She started remembering the details of what had happened to her when she was small.
00:19:31.140 Not full-blown memories were coming back, but, like, photos of, like, being younger than six.
00:19:37.480 where being younger than first grade were coming.
00:19:40.080 This is when she remembered, for the first time, gaining consciousness.
00:19:44.500 That moment of self-awareness in her mom's kitchen
00:19:47.060 when she understood that her mom and sister were mocking her.
00:19:50.480 She remembered things like her mother scolding her in a grocery store.
00:19:53.640 She remembered not understanding why. 0.98
00:19:55.880 I just remember one time a mom screaming at me like, 0.98
00:19:58.400 what is wrong with you in a crowd of people?
00:19:59.800 I don't even remember what I did, but apparently it was annoying.
00:20:03.420 It was enough for her to be like, stop it in front of a crowd of people.
00:20:06.480 And God, mind you, she knew.
00:20:07.820 She knew what was wrong with me. 1.00
00:20:08.720 It's like, bitch, you know. 1.00
00:20:09.820 You know what it is. 1.00
00:20:11.900 And there were worse memories,
00:20:13.680 ones still too difficult to talk about.
00:20:17.700 Bertrana's family had tried to instill in her
00:20:19.760 that she wouldn't amount to anything,
00:20:21.660 that she had no agency,
00:20:23.200 that there was nothing she could do
00:20:24.520 to deviate from the future they imagined for her
00:20:26.860 when she got her diagnosis.
00:20:28.700 So it was like being taught at a very early age
00:20:31.480 that like nothing you do will change
00:20:34.020 what's going to happen to you.
00:20:35.440 And I think that's why my mind repressed those memories, because, like, if I had that mentality growing up, I don't think I would have achieved as much as I did.
00:20:44.060 For Bertrana to keep moving forward, it had taken a remarkable amount of maturity and faith.
00:20:49.820 It had also taken a very impressive amount of empathy.
00:20:53.400 I think back to those moments and I'm like, it probably was difficult to be a single mother raising a child who is now deemed autistic.
00:20:59.820 I'm sure she didn't do any research of what autism was, so she probably thought that meant I would be a slow child that she would have to take care of for the rest of my life and her life as well.
00:21:10.040 It's like I was a child then, and none of you protected me.
00:21:12.780 You didn't protect me because you thought I was disabled mentally.
00:21:16.280 You kind of assumed that the way you treated me would never see the light of day, which is why you treated me that way.
00:21:22.360 Right. They assumed that you wouldn't be able to articulate what happened or advocate for yourself, right?
00:21:27.100 Yes. Yes.
00:21:29.820 And that's really unfortunate because you look at people with disabilities in the United States in general, right?
00:21:34.320 And it's like, if your own family is willing to do that to you, let's look at the system.
00:21:37.580 But because we live in a society that purposely makes us feel like if you don't do it the way the majority does, then you are not doing it correctly.
00:21:46.500 It just makes it difficult for those who are already neurodivergent to find their place.
00:21:52.060 A lot of times, especially when it comes to Americans, diversity is considered only when it comes to color, right?
00:21:57.740 and like it's more like a black and white concept and it kind of correlates back to the concept of
00:22:01.620 like neurodiversity and how it's now become like either neurotypical or neurodiverse right yeah
00:22:07.400 my degree was in bio and i think about biodiversity i think about studying us i think we need to
00:22:13.120 study ourselves the way we study animals and i think that we think human beings are too complex
00:22:18.660 we are complex but so are bugs and you know like everything is complex and it's like but we're
00:22:23.900 still at the end of the day mammal. Am I making sense? Yes, I'm nodding. Yeah, you definitely
00:22:28.280 are. Yes, Bertrana was making sense. Let me explain after the break.
00:22:38.680 So how did the movement for neurodiversity that began in the 90s become how we talk about it
00:22:44.560 today? A more rigid black and white binary with the neurotypicals on one side and the
00:22:49.820 neurodivergence on the other. My degree was in bio and I think about biodiversity and it kind
00:22:54.800 of correlates back to neurodiversity and how it's now become like either neurotypical or neurodiverse.
00:23:00.120 I was also curious about that reframe. And what I found out is that the reality is a lot more
00:23:05.680 grayscale than black and white. Autism spectrum disorder can manifest as a diverse and wide
00:23:12.160 ranging spectrum of traits and challenges. That's why spectrum is in the name. There's not one way
00:23:17.460 to be autistic, there are many, many ways to be autistic. But a director of the Yale
00:23:22.520 Developmental Disabilities Clinic says that trying to pin down the biology behind autism
00:23:26.900 has been difficult for autism researchers. They have yet to find an objective, measurable,
00:23:32.500 biological difference between an autistic brain and a neurotypical one.
00:23:37.980 Nonetheless, Judy Singer, the mother of the neurodiversity movement, relied on biology
00:23:43.640 on an I was born this way premise
00:23:46.000 when she advocated for more social inclusion
00:23:48.500 and more workplace accommodations for neurodivergent people.
00:23:52.900 Judy Singer's Neurodiversity Manifesto
00:23:55.260 was actually her undergraduate thesis in disability studies.
00:23:59.680 Singer was a neurodivergent woman with a child on the autism spectrum,
00:24:02.820 which had inspired her to get her degree as an adult.
00:24:06.440 Her thesis focused on autists that were considered high-functioning,
00:24:09.960 and it was considered groundbreaking.
00:24:11.940 It was shared widely.
00:24:14.440 And it was Singer who popularized the neurotypical neurodivergent binary,
00:24:19.100 which I'm pretty sure she meant as a middle finger to the ways she had felt marginalized
00:24:23.360 and excluded by people without cognitive disabilities.
00:24:26.760 And also a lot of neurod people online thought calling people neurotypical was funny.
00:24:31.120 And I get that because as a bisexual, I have definitely called someone a monosexual 0.63
00:24:35.460 and meant it as an insult. 0.79
00:24:37.340 But in both cases, the binary we're working with is a social construct, not a biological one.
00:24:43.640 Robert Chapman is an autistic academic and a neurodiversity theorist who has written a book
00:24:50.860 called Empire of Normality. And they say that the categories of neurodiverse and neurotypical
00:24:56.160 are social constructs. In Chapman's opinion, they're social constructs related to the needs
00:25:01.240 of the economy. A capitalist economy creates certain norms related to what does or does not
00:25:05.820 make an ideal worker. And since that ideal is related to both historical time and place
00:25:10.880 and the needs of any given industry,
00:25:13.720 whether you're clocked as neurotypical or clocked as neurodivergent
00:25:17.440 really depends on to what extent your body and mind
00:25:20.780 are either accommodated or disabled by the environment that you are in.
00:25:25.220 So like, do you work in an office with flickering neon lights?
00:25:28.760 Because that could be disabling to anyone with light sensitivity issues,
00:25:32.160 not just autistic people.
00:25:34.400 Or do you have the option to work remotely?
00:25:36.340 because that could be accommodating to a wide range of people for a wide range of reasons.
00:25:41.980 Chapman is building on the neuroconformity model of autism,
00:25:46.300 the idea that we all vary in how much we can neuroconform to the social ideal,
00:25:51.020 but no one is actually perfectly neurotypical.
00:25:55.240 But let's put the binary aside and go back to the idea of neurodiversity popularized by Judy Singer.
00:26:02.940 By many accounts, Singer's research relied heavily on the conversations happening
00:26:07.540 in an early internet forum called Independent Living on the Autism Spectrum, or INLIV.
00:26:13.960 INLIV was a mid-90s internet forum where the earliest conversations about the idea of neurodiversity took place.
00:26:21.660 I'm becoming more sure that what allows the human race to progress socially and technologically
00:26:26.720 is the neurological diversity of people.
00:26:29.220 According to the site's founder and archivist, this comment included the first use of the term.
00:26:35.180 I.e., the atypical among the society provide the different perspectives needed to generate new ideas and advances,
00:26:42.100 whether they be technological, cultural, artistic, or otherwise.
00:26:46.400 Also lurking around the in-live forums was a New York Times journalist who would eventually publish an essay about neurological pluralism,
00:26:53.680 acknowledging that humans exhibit a range of cognitive abilities,
00:26:57.500 none more normal or typical or ideal than any other.
00:27:01.080 And that was Enliff's central idea,
00:27:03.180 and these ideas continue to be the basis of the neurodiversity movement today.
00:27:07.960 With neurological diversity in mind,
00:27:10.940 that movement rejects the idea that autism or ADHD or dyslexia
00:27:15.140 should be thought of as disorders,
00:27:16.720 rather than neurological differences,
00:27:19.400 everyday variations in cognitive function.
00:27:23.680 As Steve Silber, author of Neurotribes, The Legacy of Autism and the Future of Neurodiversity,
00:27:30.620 wrote in A History of the Movement,
00:27:32.640 In forests and tide pools, the value of biological diversity is resilience.
00:27:38.580 And in nature, across the plant, animal, and microbial kingdoms,
00:27:43.320 variation is not pathologized or seen as a problem to solve.
00:27:47.880 Silber cites the author of a book about neurodiversity in the classroom, who writes,
00:27:51.800 We don't pathologize a calla lily by saying it has a petal deficit disorder.
00:27:58.100 Similarly, we ought not to pathologize children who have different kinds of brains and different ways of thinking and learning.
00:28:05.820 So Bea was definitely, absolutely making sense when she told me that neurodiversity discourse makes her, a bio-major, think of biodiversity, where variation is normal and expected and isn't cause for exclusion or hierarchy.
00:28:21.800 Biodiversity, or biological diversity, refers to the huge variety of all life on Earth in all its forms,
00:28:29.780 from genes and bacteria to entire ecosystems, from forests to coral reefs.
00:28:35.900 Whether it's plants or microbes or animals, everything lives and exists in a collective.
00:28:42.880 Ayesha Khan is a divergent infectious disease scientist, germ doctor, grassroots organizer, writer, and astrobiologist.
00:28:51.120 Like everything is interdependent, right?
00:28:53.900 And not just on each other.
00:28:55.020 They're very viscerally aware of the interspecies interdependence, right?
00:28:58.120 The reliance that they have on everything within their ecosystem
00:29:01.500 and all of that coming together to actually create life.
00:29:04.060 In their work, Ayesha gets to meet and learn from people all across the global South,
00:29:08.780 many who live in land-based collectivist cultures
00:29:11.000 in which humans tend to understand themselves as integral parts of communities
00:29:16.400 and as very small parts of a vast and interconnected ecosystem.
00:29:21.300 So what happens when you take people away from each other, from land,
00:29:25.340 from realizing that they're meant to care for each other, they're meant to care for the land.
00:29:29.180 And I think what ends up happening is there's this fixation on individual identities.
00:29:33.680 And I think even the attachment to identity, it's really a maladaptive response to the lack of a collective identity,
00:29:40.120 to really the lack of people feeling firmly anchored in an ecological context where they're like,
00:29:45.340 these are my people. This is who we are. This is what we eat. This is what we pray to. This is how
00:29:51.000 we take care of our land. This is how the land takes care of us. And I think part of oppression
00:29:55.180 is the severance from that kind of interdependence and connection.
00:30:01.560 There are somewhere around 8.7 million different species on earth, including plants, animals,
00:30:08.080 fungi, and single-celled organisms. And of those more than 8 million species, only about 20% of
00:30:14.900 them have been formally recorded and given a name like Homo sapiens. What we don't know about life
00:30:20.680 on Earth far outweighs what we do know. A bunch of heart cells need to come together to make a heart.
00:30:25.980 A bunch of different tissues come together to make a cardiovascular system. And a bunch of
00:30:29.900 organ systems come together to make a human, technically. But why end there? Because a bunch
00:30:35.980 of humans with their land come together to make an ecosystem. And a bunch of ecosystems come
00:30:41.220 together to make what is a planet. A bunch of planets come together with the sun to make a
00:30:45.100 solar system, right? And it doesn't need to end at any point. When the first astrologers looked up
00:30:54.000 at the stars, there was no distinction between astronomy and astrology. And no question about
00:30:59.200 whether celestial bodies, the sun, the moon, stars, or celestial events, the solstice, the equinox,
00:31:04.960 could have direct bearing on human life.
00:31:09.940 It's like using light to tell time.
00:31:12.720 How do I know it's spring?
00:31:14.320 Because I'm observing a physical phenomenon
00:31:17.240 that occurs cyclically in a predictable way
00:31:21.920 to let me know what time it is.
00:31:24.180 Dana Nichols is a sidereal astrologer 0.77
00:31:26.560 known as the People's Oracle.
00:31:28.840 Dana says that at the core,
00:31:30.320 astrology is about a human relationship to time and light.
00:31:34.960 For me, astrology is how I know what time it is.
00:31:38.500 Like these things are not mysteries.
00:31:40.880 And it's liberating in so many ways to know that there is an order and that there is a pattern.
00:31:46.740 Because we need to know that this is not just all random.
00:31:50.880 As the People's Oracle, Dana practices astrology for the well-being of the collective.
00:31:55.920 The thing that I've learned is that humans are so incredibly simple.
00:32:00.320 And the simplicity is that we will do anything to not be alienated. Anything. Think of the most egregious, violent thing, but also think of the most beautiful, harmonious thing.
00:32:19.560 humans will do anything to not be ostracized and alienated. And for me, I think the other piece
00:32:27.840 is that we're the same. We all need validation and respect. That's the sun. We all need comfort
00:32:36.840 and safety. That's the moon. We all need to be heard and understood. That's Mercury. We all need
00:32:42.900 to belong. That's Venus. We all need autonomy and a sense of personal power. That's Mars. We all need 0.99
00:32:50.740 for things to make sense in some way, shape, or form. That's Jupiter. And we're all going to die.
00:32:56.400 And we all need privacy. That's Saturn. And it's just a question of what is our cultural
00:33:04.660 relationship with these things? And what are the personal ways we come into relationship
00:33:13.080 with these parts of ourselves based on our culture and our home and family?
00:33:21.520 With this mathematical tracking of both near and distant stars moving slowly across the sky,
00:33:27.460 astrology was the earliest practice of cosmology, a science that deals with the
00:33:32.120 study of the universe as a whole. Today's technology means cosmologists and astronomers
00:33:37.920 alike can know way more about stars and planets than Babylonian astrologers could have ever
00:33:42.960 imagined. Like we know that the same basic elements that form stars, carbon, hydrogen,
00:33:48.940 phosphorus, nitrogen, are the same basic elements that form life on Earth. These elements are the
00:33:55.400 building blocks of molecules like DNA, and for proteins and for carbohydrates, all of which are
00:34:01.260 essential for life. And we also know that when stars explode or die, new elements are released,
00:34:07.880 including the calcium that makes up our bones and the oxygen that we breathe.
00:34:12.380 And that's what that guy was talking about when he said we're all made of stars.
00:34:21.560 Not long after returning from the Peace Corps, Bea applied to med school.
00:34:26.220 Then she made the decision to go no contact with her family.
00:34:31.260 I started therapy just because I was, like, starting med school, and I knew that I really needed to, like, be able to compartmentalize.
00:34:38.200 I remember talking to my therapist, like, the first conversation and explaining to her, like, my achievements and, like, all my accolades.
00:34:45.940 And she was like, you've achieved so much for your age.
00:34:48.100 And she kind of asked me, she's like, why do you need therapy?
00:34:49.880 Bertrana explained that her focus on academic achievements had all been part of her strategy of escape.
00:34:55.160 I'm really proud of all the accolades I have, but it was like, I need to get out of here, and I need to do it correctly.
00:35:01.260 like I don't have a second chance I don't have other options you know I don't have someone to
00:35:04.620 fall back on yeah and like what's motivating you now me girl I deserve everything I deserve it all
00:35:11.420 I deserve it all I'm so relieved that that's your answer I love that like I deserve it all oh my
00:35:17.160 goodness yeah you do so much yes I love it I'm so so happy that's how you answered I love it for you
00:35:23.400 yeah no especially like I look back and I think about how many out-of-body experiences I was
00:35:29.340 having because of how traumatized I was and I look back to baby B and I'm like oh my god
00:35:33.860 baby girl like you don't realize how much you have done for me to be here in this moment like
00:35:38.920 you don't know how much work you laid down like how humble and graceful you moved I hope I am half 0.99
00:35:45.260 a woman I was as a child I really do she was just on another level of phenomenal just getting shit
00:35:52.920 done and being in tunnel vision like she did not care about anything else but the prize
00:35:57.580 i feel like i was never a good masker in the same way that like i never felt like i needed to
00:36:04.740 apologize or explain my queerness to anybody i don't feel like i've ever needed to apologize
00:36:08.720 or explain my autism to anyone you know i mean i'm like you need to get over it i don't need
00:36:12.460 to explain to you why i'm this way or like try to make you feel more comfortable because you
00:36:17.600 don't understand me that's not my problem i understand that we call it disability but it's
00:36:23.900 disability because it's disabling others around you. It's not necessarily a
00:36:28.280 disability unless it makes other people around you feel uncomfortable. I feel
00:36:33.080 like if we had a world like maybe there'll be a Wakanda of all of us just
00:36:36.440 living and like you know prospering all of us neurodivergence but if there was
00:36:40.760 ever, I think, a city of all of us,
00:36:42.880 like, where would be the disability? 0.88
00:36:58.280 Basket Case is a production of Molten Heart
00:37:00.780 and iHeart Podcasts.
00:37:02.680 This series was created and is
00:37:04.580 executive produced by Jasmine J.T.
00:37:06.740 Green, and it is hosted,
00:37:08.720 produced, and sound designed by me,
00:37:10.360 NK, Nicole Kelly. Special thanks to Bertrana, Dr. Ayesha Khan, and Dana Nichols, The People's
00:37:17.180 Oracle. And thanks to Devin Price and Robert Chapman, whose writing also helped shape my
00:37:21.960 thinking for this episode. If you're interested in more spicy takes on neurodiversity, definitely
00:37:27.280 check out their work. Production support by Siona Petros and Imani Leonard. Adrian Lilly is our mix
00:37:34.740 engineer. Our theme is Blue and Orange by Command Jasmine. Our show art was created by Sine Rolson.
00:37:41.060 Fact-checking by Serena Solin. Our executive producer from iHeart Podcasts is Lindsay Hoffman.