Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Sunday Nice Things： Glamorous Trash

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00:00:30.000 Hey, y'all. Welcome to Sunday Nice Things. I did a podcast episode this week, like an

00:00:35.060 interview where I was actually talking on someone else's podcast that was so much damn

00:00:39.780 fun that I just had to drop it in this feed for you. I love this show so much. It's called

00:00:46.340 Glamorous Trash, which could pretty much describe my entire life. It is hosted by comedian Chelsea

00:00:52.460 Devontes, and usually they're dissecting celebrity memoirs. But in this episode, we are actually

00:00:58.560 talking about the secret lives of Mormon wives. I don't have to say any more. You're going to love 0.82

00:01:03.320 it. It is glamorously trashy, and I'm so excited for you to listen to it.

00:01:14.480 Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs viral articles, 0.65

00:01:18.260 celebrity memoirs, and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea DeVantes. I'm a

00:01:22.960 TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And this is a

00:01:27.600 Trashy Discourse episode, we are rounding up, rounding off, rounding out our Secret Lives of

00:01:35.340 Mormon Wives season two content. And I am here because I received so many messages and DMs

00:01:41.840 and podcast reviews asking for more. And so thank you for letting me know. Otherwise I wouldn't have

00:01:48.160 done this final episode. We did two episodes this season discussing specifics and now this is your

00:01:53.600 big wrap up. In the first part of this episode, I have an amazing guest who is an expert in

00:01:59.020 trad wife culture and pop culture to kind of discuss the big picture of this. And then in

00:02:04.440 the second half of the episode, I'm really going to dive in specifically into Mormon wives and I'm

00:02:09.800 going to go wife by wife and tell you my thoughts on this season as a whole. So thank you for

00:02:16.820 writing in. Thank you for all your comments and let's dive in.

00:02:23.600 My guest today is Jo Piazza, a best-selling author, podcast creator, and award-winning

00:02:31.200 journalist. You all know Jo. She is the national and international best-selling author of The

00:02:35.800 Trad Wife Murder Mystery, Everyone is Lying to You, and The Sicilian Inheritance. She is also

00:02:41.500 the creator and host of the podcast, Under the Influence. Hi, thank you so much for being here.

00:02:45.780 Hi, thank you for having me to talk about my favorite subject of all time. 0.90

00:02:48.760 me too tell me why is mormon wives hitting for you i mean i think it's hitting for the world 0.70

00:02:54.180 and i want us to discuss why but why does it hit for you personally i think you're right i think 0.99

00:02:58.860 that mormon wives is the glamorous trash that we all want and deserve right now yeah that's right 0.99

00:03:05.340 it really is but it's hitting for me in a really interesting way i have to tell you i've been on 1.00

00:03:10.380 a reality show hiatus for a little while like on purpose or no oh god no it's not like i'm on a

00:03:16.260 cleanse or anything. It's just because I barely have time to watch TV. Like I've got three kids

00:03:21.440 under seven. And so I'm not watching any TV. But I used to be a gossip rag editor for wait,

00:03:27.260 wait, can you say which rag? Of course I can. Yeah, no, I was the news director at In Touch

00:03:31.660 and Life and Style. Oh, my queen. I've read so many of your words. Thank you. Thank you. RIP.

00:03:38.040 They are no longer with us. But I mean, so reality show was like, not just my guilty pleasure,

00:03:43.140 but it was my fucking job for so long yeah so this is my re-entry into the world and it has been 0.51

00:03:49.780 such a nice re-entry yeah because it just it delivers on everything that you want a reality 0.98

00:03:57.260 show to be like you have a perfect villain you have douchebag guys you can hate so much and also 0.94

00:04:06.040 with every single character I don't really like anyone I like fucking love to hate every single 0.99

00:04:11.060 person on this show. And that's where I want to be when I'm watching reality TV. Yeah. Yeah. You 0.97

00:04:15.420 want to be swimming in the garbage. I want to be, I want to be just like doggy paddling in the

00:04:19.680 garbage. So like swimming, but not swimming with effort. Yeah. Like I want to be on like a floaty,

00:04:24.580 just like going down, going down nasty river. And this show is, so I'll tell you why the show

00:04:30.280 hits for me. One, I grew up in Utah for eight years of my life, eight formative childhood years.

00:04:34.880 And I went to LDS church every Sunday with my best friends and her eight siblings. I love this.

00:04:39.260 And I have to have you on my show to talk about all this too.

00:04:41.300 Yes.

00:04:42.020 I will be there.

00:04:42.960 And so it's just Mormon culture like really has a big place in my life.

00:04:47.980 Anyways, so that it hits for me on that reason. 1.00

00:04:50.160 It's also a very dark show.

00:04:51.760 It's very dark.

00:04:52.580 Very dark. 1.00

00:04:53.100 And I like seeing dark shit on TV because I live dark shit in life. 0.99

00:04:57.620 So that's not something that I, it makes me like it more, not less. 0.99

00:05:01.460 No, no, no.

00:05:01.800 So much more.

00:05:02.440 So much more.

00:05:03.020 That's what I'm here for.

00:05:04.060 Yeah.

00:05:04.420 But here's my question for you. 1.00

00:05:05.580 Do you think it really, really is hitting for people because of the Mormon component and like these trad wives breaking free? 0.99

00:05:13.460 Or this is my new theory. 0.63

00:05:15.780 This show is actually more relatable as a female ensemble, Mormonism aside, because they are still in income brackets that are more relatable. 1.00

00:05:26.560 They are in their 20s, but they have some regular degular things that are always problems in their life. 0.99

00:05:33.500 Like my husband's being weird and a relatable, not relatable, but it's not like he's weird 1.00

00:05:38.720 because he bought a yacht. 0.96

00:05:39.700 He's weird because he's being a dick or like I'm a mom and like my kids have to be in this 0.99

00:05:44.120 shot with me or like we're having a sad barbecue. 0.96

00:05:46.900 And so I'm sort of like, is this actually the most relatable reality show, even if it's

00:05:50.520 about a culture that we don't relate to?

00:05:52.260 Or the cops just got called to my party and it's a new house and I'm worried that the

00:05:56.640 neighbors are going to throw me out of the neighborhood.

00:05:58.360 Right?

00:05:58.980 Yeah, exactly.

00:05:59.700 Like, we can't, they can't buy their way out of problems yet.

00:06:03.720 They will be able to, but they can't yet.

00:06:05.780 But not this season.

00:06:06.960 And they'll never be able to buy their way out of the community's judgment.

00:06:12.500 Out of their sad oppression.

00:06:13.600 No, they won't.

00:06:14.460 Not even, no, not even a little bit.

00:06:15.960 You'll have to, they'll have to do harder work for that.

00:06:18.040 I think you're right on both counts. 0.99

00:06:19.480 I mean, we'll get into the trad wives of it all in a second.

00:06:21.720 But I do think that they, on a reality television level, they are something we have not seen

00:06:27.040 a whole lot of, which is, you know, people that are a little bit more like the average

00:06:32.240 person, Mormonism aside, okay, because this is also so Mormon-lite at this point.

00:06:38.140 I mean, they're Mormon like I'm Catholic, okay?

00:06:40.060 And I just love talking about my abortion. 0.95

00:06:42.720 So, but they do have like normal people, money problems, normal people, image problems. 0.95

00:06:50.000 And the Real Housewives are so beyond that at this point. 1.00

00:06:53.200 The Kardashians are gazillionaires. 0.99

00:06:55.040 They're so beyond that.

00:06:56.400 but like that is a whole other genre of like we're just watching rich people be rich

00:07:01.740 and like have rich people problems so yes I do think this is a lot more relatable but I do think

00:07:07.720 that like a lot of the sexiness comes because Americans are now addicted not just to trad

00:07:15.240 wife influencers but to influencing content generally social media is now media I think 0.99

00:07:21.040 more people are staring at these fucking screens in the palms of our hands than are watching most 0.98

00:07:24.820 TV shows, like most prestige TV shows. And so we are addicted to this way of looking at people's 0.99

00:07:32.860 lives, particularly women, particularly mom influencers. Yeah. Mom influencers is such a

00:07:39.100 good call. And it's always been the biggest part of the influencing industry. And it has this

00:07:44.540 amazing feminist side to it in that like moms were given entrepreneurship and took it to a level that 1.00

00:07:53.540 outdid any other type of creator when moms are usually people have been really shitty to that 1.00

00:07:58.400 demographic and this is a demographic that just like took over this industry and then it gets in 1.00

00:08:02.260 the hands of these mormon wives and these trad wives and then the feminism like twists it this 1.00

00:08:07.060 the feminism starts like sucking its own dick to the point where like it's no longer feminism 1.00

00:08:11.880 it's the snake eating its tail right the yeah i don't know why i went to sucking dick and not a 1.00

00:08:16.740 snake eating its tail but the ouroboros ouroboros ouroboros it's a snake sucking its own dick is 1.00

00:08:25.200 what it is that's what i'm talking about exactly exactly no it is well because all right mom 0.99

00:08:29.540 influencing has i mean i've been covering it on my podcast for five years since i had my my second 0.67

00:08:35.460 baby and all i could do was like scroll instagram while she was like sucking on my boob and what i

00:08:39.540 realized is everyone is trying to sell you something and it is also a multi-billion dollar 1.00

00:08:42.660 business run by women for women, where women are like really making some serious bank. And that's 1.00

00:08:48.020 awesome. That's a great thing. They are also preying on every woman's pain point and shame

00:08:53.340 to sell us ridiculous shit, particularly the Mormon mom influencers and now the Mormon trad 1.00

00:08:59.780 wives, you know, who are preaching this idea of like submission to your husband, give up your 1.00

00:09:06.780 agency, get out of the workforce, don't get educated, get off birth control, make as many 1.00

00:09:12.060 babies as possible. And I would say the mom talk girls from The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives 0.99

00:09:19.680 are like, again, like they're Mormon-like, they're trad wife-like. And so they're in these

00:09:24.180 relationships or they were in these relationships that were very patriarchal, very dominant. They're

00:09:28.400 trying to break out of the mold. And that is real fun to watch. Yeah. It's kind of breaking or

00:09:35.380 massaging my brain in the way of like what you said. And you're an expert in this. Like you've

00:09:39.940 written a book on it. Like your, you, your podcast talks about it of like trad wives and the idea of

00:09:45.780 becoming a trad wife has never been more popular, but the most popular show is watching women say, 1.00

00:09:53.660 fuck you to that lifestyle. And I'm like, these two are existing at the same time for the same 1.00

00:10:00.260 audience. Do you know what I mean? And they're over here being like, I don't want that anymore.

00:10:05.600 and like now that I can like post a sexy photo and feel that attention I don't care about God 0.56

00:10:10.500 anymore this love is is more fulfilling than God's love it turns out like turns out I like an orgasm

00:10:16.820 yeah so it's okay so what were your big takeaways looking at the trad wife themes in this season

00:10:25.080 did any still hold up for you did you walk away being like oh they're still pushing

00:10:29.080 blankety blank I don't think the women are pushing anything I think the men are much like men in the

00:10:34.740 world generally are desperate to hold on to their power and they don't know what to do. They're

00:10:42.440 flailing. They're like, why is no one listening to me? Why is no one submitting to me? I am the

00:10:47.240 boss of my family. I am the God of my kingdom. And yet I'm the biggest loser on this show. I'm

00:10:52.460 not making any money. My wife makes so much more money than me. And that's the most awesome part 1.00

00:10:56.720 about this. My biggest issue with Trad Wives on Instagram and TikTok has always been that they're 1.00

00:11:03.980 running around in their goddamn fields, barefoot in a white linen dress and like making sourdough 1.00

00:11:09.500 with their 19 children and just saying, I am just a housewife. I am just, you know, making the house 1.00

00:11:15.740 nice for my husband because he is the boss. He is the leader of this family and men are special

00:11:21.040 godlike beings. When in fact, they are the breadwinners in their family most of the time

00:11:26.980 because they're making so much money off their social media. And that is the whole reason I named

00:11:31.240 my novel, Everyone is Lying to You, because they're all just lying to you. Like behind the

00:11:36.180 facade is actually a woman who is a badass CEO of a media company pretending to be a submissive 1.00

00:11:42.980 basic bee just to make money off of you. And they're one of the things that's hardest to 1.00

00:11:47.860 become, which is a first time female director. They are writing. They are directing. They are.

00:11:54.140 Yeah. And it's incredible. You're absolutely right about that. And it's interesting watching

00:11:59.580 the first season I said oh my gosh these women are breaking this religion which from my vantage 1.00

00:12:06.240 is like wild and fun to see this season I have felt the capitalism and the entrepreneurship and 1.00

00:12:15.660 the money of it take over any feminism that was accidentally or purposely oh yeah oh yeah no they 1.00

00:12:23.600 want to make money these women want to make money they want to be successful at pretty much the 1.00

00:12:29.360 expense of anything and everything else. Of Jessie specifically. I don't know if you saw this, but 1.00

00:12:33.600 like specifically Demi will be like, sorry to spoil, but she's like, Jessie, kick her off the 1.00

00:12:38.460 show and give me her money. Demi tells that to the producers and then tells it to enough of the 1.00

00:12:42.580 other wives that they're like, didn't you want to kick your best friend off so you could make more 1.00

00:12:46.000 money? And Demi was like, yeah, we're feminists now, right? And I said, uh-oh, somebody get a 1.00

00:12:50.760 feminist to Utah to teach them how this really works. Maybe we should go to Utah. Oh my God, 1.00

00:12:56.920 Do you want to go and we'll go through the drive-thru and live on soda every day? 1.00

00:12:59.980 I would 100% go to Utah with you because we could give them Feminism 101. 1.00

00:13:05.480 I would love to do a basic bitch feminism course. 1.00

00:13:08.160 A basic bitch feminism seminar and I think they'd really love it. 1.00

00:13:11.160 You're so right. 1.00

00:13:11.700 Can I tell?

00:13:12.260 Look what I'm drinking.

00:13:13.120 I am drinking. 0.98

00:13:13.900 They have fucked up my life so much. 0.97

00:13:15.300 I am drinking cream soda, diet Dr. Pepper with sugar-free vanilla syrup and almond milk. 1.00

00:13:20.680 Holy shit. 0.99

00:13:21.600 Wow. 0.99

00:13:22.260 I've been drinking concoctions like this every...

00:13:25.080 They're ruining my health.

00:13:26.180 You have been so pink-pilled. This is amazing. 0.89

00:13:28.700 I've been really pink-pilled.

00:13:29.640 You've been really pink-pilled.

00:13:30.900 Okay, I have another question for you, a little bit in the more global trad-wise sphere,

00:13:35.460 which is, why do you think Ballerina Farm hides their Mormonism, but pushes their Christianity?

00:13:45.040 Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back.

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00:14:12.040 Okay, let's dive back into the episode. 0.97

00:14:17.420 Why do you think Ballerina Farm hides their Mormonism,

00:14:22.660 but pushes their Christianity?

00:14:24.580 Because of capitalism, because they know that most Americans think Mormons are weird. 1.00

00:14:27.900 I mean, statistically, like, that is true. 1.00

00:14:29.460 In surveys, most Americans think that Mormonism is strange and weird, and they want to make 0.98

00:14:33.300 money.

00:14:33.880 They are a brand before all else.

00:14:37.580 Both of them are very hungry entrepreneurs, and I think it was a very concerted effort

00:14:43.660 from the very beginning to be like, no, no, no, we've got a wider reach.

00:14:46.880 We can do some light Jesus, but, like, do not talk about the Latter-day Saints. 0.89

00:14:51.200 it's so fascinating because when you one on the flip side that is what made mormon wives catch

00:14:59.980 you know we are mormon swingers the mormonism it was kind of the hook of it right but we're in that 1.00

00:15:04.820 for the voyeuristic trash and ballerina farm wants to sell you shit and wants wants you to believe 1.00

00:15:09.900 and wants you to believe in her like she needs she like really needed to create a parasocial 1.00

00:15:15.260 relationship with her millions of followers to get her brand where it is and i'm convinced

00:15:19.860 that they are going to explode into a full-on Magnolia-style media property very, very soon,

00:15:26.640 you know, with the, like, in-person dairy and some bakeries and a TV show and a magazine and

00:15:32.920 all of that stuff. And she wasn't going to get there by doing the Mormon thing. 0.93

00:15:37.660 But do you think she could survive a reality show in that it would be showing all of the labor 1.00

00:15:43.200 she hides? So it would reveal the nannies. It would reveal the people who help her create this 1.00

00:15:48.640 trad life lifestyle like do you think they could pull a tv show off or they can't pull a reality

00:15:52.320 show off but they could pull a chip and joanna gaines style curated curated well-produced where

00:15:58.980 you don't see the grossness of building a house or you don't see the grossness of raising that

00:16:03.460 many children which just seems disgusting to me as someone with three small children okay but three

00:16:08.260 seems like a regular number three feels like a lot i'm one of three yeah that was a lot for my mom 0.66

00:16:13.440 threes a lot. No, like they would, she would never do a like guts and all mascara running down her 1.00

00:16:20.280 face reality style show, but she would do a beautifully produced Magnolia style show.

00:16:24.960 I think that is a fascinating call. I think you're absolutely right. Okay. Here's one more

00:16:29.240 ballerina farm question. I'm going to come back to Mormon wives, which is a lot of people have 0.98

00:16:33.820 talked about like, why are the most compelling influencers coming out of Utah? The big one being

00:16:39.600 that, and the one I relate to the most is that like girls are, Utah is a perfectionist culture 0.96

00:16:45.440 where it's like, be perfect, be perfect. So you are performing perfectionism from the day you 0.62

00:16:50.200 were born and activities and working hard and getting good grades and following the rules.

00:16:54.320 All those things are seen as like really positive in the church. And then the third thing is spread

00:16:58.700 the word, spread the word, spread the word, you know, mission trips, which are, you know,

00:17:02.420 predominantly for the men, but that social influencing is a great way to spread the word

00:17:07.640 of the LDS church. So that's where Ballerina Farm gets me. One, my question is for you is,

00:17:13.300 do you agree with that? Do you agree with that's why Utah influencers are so successful? And two,

00:17:18.000 that Ballerina Farm wouldn't be spreading the word is, what do you think of that?

00:17:21.880 A hundred percent. Yes. I did so much research into this when I first launched Under the

00:17:26.540 Influence. We had a whole episode about why Mormon women were the first mommy bloggers. 0.76

00:17:32.260 They were the majority of the first mommy bloggers too. And then they were really the first to adopt

00:17:36.840 Instagram as a platform. And it is because of that intense perfectionism. It is also because

00:17:42.060 of a couple other factors, one of which is that the church actually encouraged women to do first

00:17:48.860 journaling and then blogging. They talked about this new kind of media. They're like, this is

00:17:53.780 actually a way for you to be spreading the word about your domestic labors and the things you do

00:17:59.500 in the home. So they have always been early adopters of this media. It has always been a

00:18:04.660 way of soft proselytizing. And then, to be honest, they're what the algorithm wants. Instagram was

00:18:11.520 created to essentially be a photo sharing kind of vogue. They did not want ugly pictures on this.

00:18:16.800 I mean, think about these, like, tech bro founders. They wanted just, like, pretty chicks on this, 0.75

00:18:21.540 taking pretty filtered shots. And, like, the widest of white, blonde, blue-eyed. The widest of white. 1.00

00:18:25.900 And these women, you know, allegedly, or at least until the characters on our favorite show, 0.92

00:18:31.780 have never smoked a cigarette. They didn't smoke a pack of Parliament lights a day like I did

00:18:36.860 throughout my 20s. They weren't doing shots off the bar or off people's boobs. Like they just 0.91

00:18:42.240 look good. They don't look road hard and put away wet, like a lot of other women with 19 children. 0.95

00:18:47.280 So they just really performed well for the algorithm over and over again. Plus the algorithm 0.90

00:18:52.280 loves pregnancy and babies. And they're willing to provide a lot of those. That is, yeah, well,

00:18:59.200 that is so well said and it's so funny to me too of how this culture has been ahead of the curve

00:19:05.220 in so many ways like mormons own ancestry and the mormon church owns another genealogical site

00:19:11.200 because they like documenting but then they're at the forefront of like dna science and also

00:19:15.880 fucking it up with their with their point of view and the other thing i think about is like

00:19:21.420 the amount of scrapbook parties i attended weekly throughout my life it's like oh yes 0.97

00:19:26.020 Yeah. Yes. Instagram is digital scrapbook. Do you think you would have been a trad wife if you'd

00:19:31.280 stayed? Um, I would have had to convert and I, they were always, you know, it was, it was my

00:19:39.120 best friend's family very lovingly took me on as like little sad, little sad devil child who they

00:19:45.040 were going to help, you know? And I say that with love, like, you know, I think they really felt

00:19:48.660 that way about me. And I have a lot of Mormon friends. So I've gone on trips with them to Kenya

00:19:54.260 that they were doing and worked with a lot of mormons and i yeah i have mad respect for a lot 0.99

00:19:59.100 of mormons so yeah no and i just like shitting on shitting on their faith when i say that a lot 0.98

00:20:04.020 of americans think they're weird that is coming from actual data no absolutely and they knew that 0.99

00:20:08.880 too i think that's also they're well aware yeah and like i loved i loved i loved i loved my best

00:20:13.780 friend and still have so much love for her but i don't think i would have become a trad wife because

00:20:18.220 i'd already been through so much fucked up shit in my house it was already over for me i was never 0.94

00:20:23.740 going to be able to like blindly follow those paths even by the time I was like 13. But had 0.98

00:20:28.700 that not been a part of my life, you bet your ass I'd be putting stickers on binders and baking 0.96

00:20:35.000 cookies in the shape of a sun. Like I'd be doing that every day. So, okay, here's another question 0.91

00:20:41.880 for you. What are your thoughts on the plastic surgery in these Mormon wives lives? Because 1.00

00:20:48.100 I have to constantly remind myself Michaela is 24 because it feels like I'm watching a 35 year

00:20:55.500 old and there is so much beauty and perfectionism. So it's not, this is not an anti beauty statement,

00:21:00.980 but it is a very distinct type of look that comes from plastic surgery. That is really odd for my

00:21:08.100 brain to digest. What do you think? Yeah, no, it's social media face. It is absolutely social

00:21:12.220 media face. It is actually not attractive in person at all, but it is something that does

00:21:17.400 look good in selfies and often on reels because it's kind of like puffier and larger than life

00:21:24.380 and glowier. And it was really funny that my husband watched the first episode of season one

00:21:29.960 and my husband watches no TV. Like it's amazing that this man married me because

00:21:34.060 he has no pop culture references. He was like, she'll do it for me. It's so cute,

00:21:38.800 but he watched it and he couldn't tell anyone apart. It was as if he had face blindness

00:21:42.380 because the features. I think a lot of people feel that way. They don't feel like they can

00:21:46.220 tell them it's hard for me sometimes too in fact when I was starting season two I kind of wish the

00:21:53.620 way that they provide subtitles sometimes when you can't properly hear someone which I love which I

00:21:58.180 like I do like that because I need a primer but I'd like them to maybe wear name tags sometimes

00:22:03.240 because I have like the Kyron like the bachelor like they remind you like this is Michaela this

00:22:07.460 is the one that got married at 16 exactly like that because I had been out of it for about six

00:22:12.720 months from season one so like that a chyron would have been really nice for season two if someone

00:22:18.040 could have provided that with me I think that's a great pitch and this is how I know I grew up in

00:22:22.520 Utah because I think you could blindfold me and by hands alone I could tell you who each one of

00:22:26.340 them was because you know when you grow up with a certain type of person you watch it and like you

00:22:30.800 yes I could tell them all apart instantly I mean the amount of blonde to blonde is a science that 0.78

00:22:36.240 I bet I could be like she's 68% she's 78% that's the only true blonde well I think they've had a

00:22:41.060 lot more done since season one, too. So did you see Layla saying, you know, 23 and I got my body 0.98

00:22:47.860 done? Yep. What do you think that meant? I think it means everything. I think it is a full like

00:22:56.480 nip and tuck and the electrodes that they can put on you to then tighten everything and some boobs 0.90

00:23:04.600 and a full face. Yeah. I thought her face looked the same. And then I realized she's 0.88

00:23:12.120 definitely changed her face. No, her face is different. Her face is a hundred percent

00:23:16.760 different. And I think that is a function of a couple of things. One, it's looking at yourself

00:23:21.280 on television, which makes anyone want to change their face. I mean, when I started going on TV a

00:23:26.820 bunch, when I was doing this celebrity journalism and I had to look at myself all the time, I got

00:23:30.500 a nose job within a year. Cause I was like, Oh fuck now. Like I want that shit fixed and also 0.99

00:23:35.140 a function of getting vaguely famous. So I'm sure they're getting everything for free now. 0.99

00:23:39.400 Yeah. Yeah. It's also, we are in a plastic surgery wave that I've actually been really

00:23:44.620 struggling on how to discuss, because do you remember when Cher gave that quote to the press

00:23:51.280 where she said, and when I say remember, like I know it from a meme, it's not like I saw it live, 0.99

00:23:55.720 but where she was basically like, if I want to put my tits on my back, I will, I will, I will. 1.00

00:24:00.500 thank you so much for sure yeah yeah and I remember being like yes bitch like do what you 0.99

00:24:04.760 want with your body do whatever work like when Jane Fonda talks about plastic surgery I'm like 0.86

00:24:08.480 live your life and now we've entered into this era where I can't feel that way anymore because

00:24:17.100 it feels like and I don't know if there ever was agency in plastic surgery because it but we have

00:24:25.000 entered a new wave that now has like classism and money hand in hand with the work. But then we

00:24:32.520 still have these old ideas of like, well, you can't make fun or even talk about or even note 1.00

00:24:37.700 a woman's looks because that is being anti-woman. But that is not applicable to our situation. But

00:24:44.860 I think we are still stuck in that tension because we haven't figured out a way to discuss something

00:24:50.100 really horrible that is happening in women's beauty lately. I'm curious if you have any

00:24:54.680 thoughts to help me or save me. I have so many thoughts. So many thoughts. Because I think we

00:25:00.380 were in an age for a long time where it was anti-feminist to talk about how another woman

00:25:04.480 looked. Yeah. To talk about another woman's face. I literally just went through all of this self 0.69

00:25:08.840 reflection because I did an episode of my podcast talking about what I like to call MAGA face,

00:25:14.460 which is that every woman in the Trump administration or Trump administration

00:25:17.860 adjacent looks exactly the same. I have the same level of face blindness between Kristi Noem and 0.98

00:25:24.340 Ivanka Trump at this point. Although I will say Pam Bondi looks very good for her age. 0.96

00:25:29.060 Whatever work she's done, very tasteful. I don't, and also as a celebrity magazine editor,

00:25:35.540 I don't feel as strange about it, especially when they are women who are putting themselves

00:25:43.500 out there in a very particular way. When we are talking about women who are famous for being

00:25:51.160 famous, who are famous for exhibitionism, for famous for putting their, literally putting their

00:25:56.380 faces on social media, in my mind, it becomes a sort of media critique. And like, maybe some

00:26:02.880 people are going to come after me for that. But I mean, plastic surgery has also changed so much.

00:26:08.540 we are not talking about, you know, a facelift or a boob job or a tummy tuck. We're talking about

00:26:15.240 all manner of injections that can go anywhere in your body to completely transform your face.

00:26:21.260 And, you know, when your face is your currency, when your face is the plot line of your show,

00:26:25.540 I think it's okay to talk about it. Yeah. Well, and that would go more to,

00:26:30.120 and this is the struggle I'm having of like, yeah, like we have such issues with women's

00:26:33.820 looks because we talk about women's looks because we talk about women's looks. And so it's like,

00:26:36.540 I don't want to add to that. There's also this plastic surgery thing going on where

00:26:40.860 it's actually not beauty sometimes, like, especially in MAGA face, it's a distinct look,

00:26:47.260 but they're not looking for beauty. They're looking for plastic surgery to be visible

00:26:52.240 and it's just changed. And I feel it's, you know, women are getting fillers when they're like 21 and

00:27:00.020 22. Which is too young, which is just insane to me. Is it though? Because if we're talking 0.77

00:27:06.160 about this being currency and if you're in the media and you're changing your face because you're

00:27:10.680 on there and then young girls are watching that that's what they'll want I'm over here too where

00:27:15.260 I really feel my age because I think of Jennifer Gray you know who changed her nose and lost her

00:27:21.200 career and Barbara Streisand who kept it and made her career right or Jane Fonda who changed

00:27:26.340 everything but did it front-facing and it was fine I don't know I feel like there's we used to talk

00:27:32.280 about plastic surgery by choice. And now I think plastic surgery has taken over choice.

00:27:38.340 I don't know. I still think it's a choice. I do. I do. I mean, I think that they're going to get

00:27:45.060 talked about either way, right? If they don't look a certain way, people are going to talk about that.

00:27:49.180 If they all look the same, like Stepford Wives, people are going to talk about that. If you are

00:27:53.720 a human being that puts yourself out on media, people are going to talk about you regardless

00:27:58.480 of how you look. And so it is a choice how much you want to have done to what level and how much

00:28:05.000 you're willing to change these things. I mean, I, I do think that we have entered an age of

00:28:11.160 plastic surgery. And also every time I publicly talk about plastic surgery, people attack me on

00:28:15.040 social media being like, oh God, no, I could care. Oh, please. I could care less. They can say

00:28:20.060 whatever they want. Oh, I'm such a thick skin, but people are like, oh my God, it's because you're

00:28:23.440 ugly and jealous. And I'm like, cool. My comments are amazing. Yeah. That's why people then go and 0.97

00:28:30.960 get the work. And someone commented on Layla's Instagram, you know, something about her face,

00:28:36.200 something about her body. And then she went and got body done, but they all got plastic surgery

00:28:40.120 to look more and more and more like each other. Yes, they did. Yes, they did. But it's not,

00:28:43.980 I don't think it's just like, like each other. I think it's just like, that is the look that is

00:28:47.560 the Instagram face that everyone just moves towards naturally. They all have the same

00:28:53.480 Utah waves. Not one of them is like, actually, I want more volume or less volume or shoulder

00:29:00.720 length hair. Whitney. I'll give it to Whitney. Whitney. Whitney's the only one. Well, it was,

00:29:04.900 you know, I went to a book event yesterday and I had hair and makeup done and I asked them to

00:29:10.740 make me look like a Mormon wife. And because your book event is about trad wives. My book is about

00:29:16.280 Trad wives. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, no, make me look like a Mormon wife. And she was a Mormon 1.00

00:29:20.700 wife virgin. She didn't know anything about them. So I showed them to her and we started watching

00:29:25.020 videos together. And then we watched videos together for like an hour and a half. And I was

00:29:28.300 late to the event, but it was totally worth it to like get to pop her Mormon wives cherry. And 1.00

00:29:32.740 she was like, they do not look Mormon. And I was like, I know that's the point. She's like, 0.99

00:29:38.040 and they all look the same. And I'm like, I think maybe that's also the point. And so then we were 0.64

00:29:41.980 going to do my hair and she's like, your hair is too short. I can't do that, but I could do it like

00:29:44.700 that one. And I'm like, like Whitney, you're going to get a headband and I got a headband

00:29:49.900 and tucked it behind my ears. And I was like, that was the only place I could go. I can't wait

00:29:53.060 to see photos from that. Okay. Tell everyone where they can find your book. Listen to your

00:29:58.000 podcast. Talk more about trad wives. You're going to, we're going to talk about, we're going to

00:30:01.660 come back. We're going to discuss more Salt Lake City wives. Tell them everything. I just can't

00:30:06.540 wait. I really can't. So yeah. So I wrote this trad wife murder mystery because it felt like what

00:30:11.740 Americans also deserved and wanted. And it is just, it's funny because our mutual friend that

00:30:18.840 introduced us read the book and she was like, oh my gosh, this is such glamorous trash. I have to 0.95

00:30:23.940 introduce you to Chelsea right away. Shout out to Lauren. I'm like, that's the highest compliment 1.00

00:30:27.380 I could ever get. I love that she read your book and thought that because I requested a galley. So

00:30:32.720 now I get to read your book. Oh, you're going to read it. No, it's just glamorous, delicious trash

00:30:35.760 is what it is. And it's trad wives doing what a lot of these Mormon women are doing, 1.00

00:30:41.740 it to an extreme because they start murdering their husbands and but bucking the patriarchal 1.00

00:30:46.540 system right but in just like a juicy bananas really fun way it's called everyone is lying to

00:30:52.360 you because everyone on social media is lying to you and it's out july 15th but everyone can order

00:30:57.340 it now and i'm gonna be i'm gonna be all over the country doing events you're in la right i'm in la

00:31:01.720 i'll be in la yeah come to my event i will yeah yeah come it'll be fun we're gonna have a trad

00:31:07.100 wife costume contest. I have some things. I thought you might. I've got some things in my

00:31:11.680 closet. I'm ready. If that sounds like the juiciest, best summer read, thank you so much

00:31:16.580 for coming on and talking about it and talking about proud wife culture with me. Yes. Thanks

00:31:20.420 for having me. I'll do it. I can't wait. I'm going to ignore my kids for two days and binge

00:31:24.760 Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I know. Aren't you happy for me? And you have to start at season

00:31:28.040 one. You have to start at season one. Obviously. I would never. I would never. I'm so happy. I'm

00:31:30.920 jealous. You should be. I'm going to send you emails throughout it. Okay, good.

00:31:38.000 Okay, now we're moving into part two of the podcast, where I'm going to go solo and go

00:31:43.620 wife by wife as I give my thoughts on the entire season two rundown of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

00:31:57.680 Okay, let's dive back into the episode.

00:32:00.300 But first, I have to tell you my thesis on the key lessons and takeaways between Mormon Wives

00:32:09.300 and Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. So when you watch these two shows, I believe there are

00:32:17.300 two pieces that go together. They must be studied in the same context. And I really distinctly see

00:32:22.880 female friendship in your 20s versus female friendship in your 30s and beyond and how you

00:32:29.620 change as a woman as you age come to light in both of these shows. So like Mormon wives in their 1.00

00:32:36.380 twenties, they fight like it's the last fight you'll ever have. Like you're never going to see 1.00

00:32:41.560 this bitch again. Like this is the worst that could ever happen to you. That is how these girls 1.00

00:32:46.060 are fighting. Demi is calling Taylor disgusting. Michaela is refusing to make up with Whitney, 1.00

00:32:52.260 but like meeting her for low key non-interesting dramatic conversations. They fight like I don't

00:33:00.560 need these women. Salt Lake City housewives, they fight like they know their bag is attached to this 1.00

00:33:08.260 woman. They know that female friendship doesn't come along easy. They know that you're going to 1.00

00:33:14.600 need women in life to survive, which is why those women stay and remain and have a weird form of 0.98

00:33:21.960 forgiveness as they stay in it and battle it out and keep trying to remain friends. It's how Whitney 0.99

00:33:29.680 and Heather become friends again. It's why Heather sticks it out so long with toxic Jen Shaw. But it 1.00

00:33:36.080 really is the difference of how you view your friendships in your 20s versus your late 30s and

00:33:41.380 beyond. That's how I saw it. I also see the Mormon wives in their 20s. They're like, I can't get

00:33:48.680 divorced. My life will be over. My life will be ruined. Real housewives. They know they'll be

00:33:54.560 fine. Like they don't want a divorce, but like they'll survive. They've been divorced. They know

00:33:59.380 they'll move on. They're like, these men are good, but if I need to, I can be alone. Whereas the

00:34:05.480 Mormon wives are like, no, I must stay with Zach. There's nothing else left for me. Whereas these 1.00

00:34:10.680 other women in their forties and fifties are like, I'm still fucking other people. I know there will 1.00

00:34:14.740 be other men in life to fuck and so there's just real generational differences within this same 1.00

00:34:20.380 culture of utah women who are all up against the same obstacles of perfectionism and morals and 0.99

00:34:27.040 things like that so these two seasons these two shows watching them together is perfect

00:34:31.020 uh why why why why haven't they pulled in heather gay to rep to run the reunions for mormon wives

00:34:39.060 now i know it's probably like heather gay is under contract with bravo and peacock 0.75

00:34:43.960 and Mormon wives is Hulu. I get it. I get it. But like, there's gotta be an agent or manager out 0.99

00:34:49.780 there who can make this bridge happen for all of us. Okay. Let's get into the wives, which

00:34:56.180 they're always voting like who's in mom talk and who's not in mom talk when these bitches just did 1.00

00:35:03.400 a talk. Do you know what I mean? Like they will all get up and do their choreographed dance. And 1.00

00:35:07.120 then they'll be like, now let's vote who's in mom talk. And it's like, I think she's in mom talk

00:35:11.460 because she's doing the choreography with y'all.

00:35:14.400 Like, what are the rules of MomTalk?

00:35:17.580 That being said, I love that the show continues

00:35:20.520 even when it's off air

00:35:22.100 because the TikTok drama happens in real time.

00:35:25.380 It happens in the comments.

00:35:26.640 It happens in the back and forth.

00:35:28.220 It happens in the Reddit discourse.

00:35:29.700 And there's already been more drama since the show wrapped.

00:35:33.980 And I just, I really think it's so genius

00:35:37.080 how they've woven in what they do on MomTalk

00:35:40.420 into the show so that they really are both in conversation and they are both their own shows.

00:35:45.940 Okay. First, we are going to start with Layla. Oh, Layla. Some producer realized how influenced

00:35:57.580 Layla could be. They saw that Layla wants to please. She wants a storyline. She doesn't know 1.00

00:36:03.440 how to fit in she is lacking her own inner core and that producer who I'm sure got a promotion 0.97

00:36:10.540 said Layla you'll be doing the setups she's doing the handing Taylor her phone with the group chat 0.98

00:36:19.180 on it on a private plane or was that a set it looked like the set of a private plane it didn't

00:36:25.380 look like a real private plane in any way nor was there any mention of like we just came from this

00:36:31.080 event nor was the event shown it was like they called a camera crew to a hollywood set of like 0.98

00:36:37.440 two rows of plane seats and had her hand taylor her phone with the group chat all talking shit 0.93

00:36:44.300 about taylor they also had layla do pregnancy roulette obviously this is not a fun game layla 0.98

00:36:53.400 the 23 year old with two kids plays all the time obviously she was not missing her period and really 0.98

00:37:00.560 thinking that she might be pregnant and thought this was the way to find out because we're barely 0.99

00:37:05.360 getting scenes of her in that relationship that she's in with the man. I don't couldn't even,

00:37:13.040 I don't even know what I would Google to even find his name. That's how little of an impression

00:37:17.060 he's made on me, except I did see, I don't know. What did I see? A TikTok, a meme, a thread. I saw

00:37:23.420 something where they said he's giving civil war face. Like his face looks like the picture of a

00:37:29.680 soldier you see in a textbook from old timey times and he was giving the confederate side

00:37:35.340 obviously that's what leila's boyfriend looks like sorry to that man anyways so they were

00:37:41.140 obviously like we know two women are pregnant we know demi is struggling we know this will cause

00:37:47.100 crazy drama in new orleans hey leila go play pregnancy roulette the other setup is they said

00:37:54.780 hey, Layla, you go sit with Marciano from Vanderpump Villa in a hotel room and ask him 0.69

00:38:05.120 about cheating with Demi. And then he's like, actually, it was Jesse. But what involvement

00:38:10.240 does Layla organically have in any of this? None. She's just she's doing a producer set list. 0.96

00:38:16.760 And I'm worried for her. And I'm also worried for the show because poor Layla, she don't got 0.96

00:38:21.940 the range. I like her. She's a sweetheart, but like she is not Heather Gay. She can't go in and 1.00

00:38:27.880 do your talking point setups, your snarky, witty takes on it and then give you, you know, 1.00

00:38:35.040 the lines that you need to connect between one shot and the next like Heather does. 1.00

00:38:39.840 That ain't Layla. My favorite Layla moment though was watching her go to the burlesque show. 1.00

00:38:46.540 And when that burlesque dancer took off her pasties and whatever was covering her cooch, 1.00

00:38:55.120 Layla's face, I've never seen a jaw physically drop to the floor and eyes physically shoot out 0.95

00:39:02.600 of your head. I've never seen someone react with such intensity that Layla's face when she saw 0.99

00:39:09.680 burlesque was the face you make when you see God. Layla saw God that night. I think she's forever

00:39:15.060 changed. Also, Layla was talking about how she would go through the temple with her boyfriend

00:39:21.140 if he wanted to get married because he's a bishop's son and it's very important to him.

00:39:24.260 And I said, Layla, how are you going to get through the temple? Like, I think you've broken

00:39:29.460 a lot of, you have a tattoo. You're on this show. Are you going to get through the temple? I don't

00:39:35.560 know. Someone weigh in. Can Layla still go through the temple? And then Demi having opinions on

00:39:43.140 Layla going through the temple and not meaning it, but just doing it for her boyfriend. And I

00:39:48.200 said, Demi, when did you become Mormon? Like for some reason, Demi was like one of the stronger 0.76

00:39:54.500 Mormon representatives this season in a way that was like quite shocking. So let's move to Demi. 0.98

00:40:01.700 Now, Demi referenced in this season that clearly it was no secret that she was a fan favorite from

00:40:08.240 season one? And I said, she was? Because I mean, she was fun. She was a very fun side character.

00:40:16.120 She was hilarious. Her drama was wild. It didn't make it to my algorithm that she was the fan

00:40:22.900 favorite. My algorithm was still eaten up by Taylor and really Whitney. And so this to me,

00:40:29.880 another key lesson, you got to know your role in the ensemble. She thrives as the fun side

00:40:37.400 drama gal stoking provoking being wild in her own life when she is in the center that is a role that 0.98

00:40:46.340 is not for Demi to have because she is not as good of a villain as Whitney or if Taylor became a 0.97

00:40:53.960 villain they are way better villains I think because they have a vulnerability to their dark 0.96

00:41:00.680 side where when Whitney and Taylor are acting out in terrible ways that make them a villain

00:41:06.560 you can really see the vulnerable place it's coming from and where their desires have gone

00:41:12.240 wrong to lead them to such crazy actions. Whereas Demi became like full on villain with no motivation

00:41:19.500 besides money, or she didn't show that softer side. Anyways, I said, go back to being like fun 0.99

00:41:25.080 side gal. Can I say my biggest take with Demi is that I'm just happy. I'm so, so happy that one of

00:41:33.640 these wives discovered a bold lip you know they're all in muted glossier fake makeup light pink pale

00:41:41.860 makeup it's sad that it took Christmas to discover a red lip like Demi was like it's Christmas it's

00:41:48.580 my Christmas party I can put on a red lipstick god she looked amazing in it and um I hope it

00:41:55.140 brings some new bold lip shades to next season but I know it won't she really I said not only 0.51

00:42:03.360 has this show jumped the shark or her character has jumped the shark, but culture has jumped the

00:42:09.720 shark. When Demi screams at Taylor, look me in the eyes, you narcissist. And I said, oh boy, 1.00

00:42:17.380 this is a moment in time where everything is so messed up and backwards that my brain is breaking. 0.99

00:42:24.240 Look me in the eyes, you narcissist. Everything is wrong in this sentence. Watching Demi be a 0.95

00:42:32.780 empowered woman this season was so painful. She learned words like narcissist and consents

00:42:41.420 and empowerment. But then she'd be like, we need to empower women, which is why Jen is a fucking 1.00

00:42:48.080 liar and should speak up for herself because we're empowered now. And it's like, Demi, 1.00

00:42:53.420 calling your friends in an emotionally abusive relationship, a liar is not how we empower women.

00:43:00.420 And, you know, it was a good reminder of just how far we have yet to go, especially in that corner of their Utah neighborhood.

00:43:10.560 Another wild moment for me, and I'm sorry, this is really dark, but Demi was talking.

00:43:16.060 She specifically said the sentence, I really want to know what me and Brett's DNA looks like together.

00:43:25.360 and she said that because they're having fertility issues and it is specifically Brett he's much

00:43:32.380 older than her he is so much older than her that he was in college when he first met Demi

00:43:37.360 and she was nine she was nine years old and they both still have that memory and I don't know how

00:43:45.020 they got past that but they did and he's a lot older than her and I'm gonna theorize that this

00:43:53.740 man is Royden. He'd been Royden out for a long time. He was an athlete and he is now a semi

00:44:00.300 professional Halloween Chippendales dancer. And so I think he's on some, some stoids and we know

00:44:07.900 that affects men's fertility. And so specifically she was saying, but I want to know what me and

00:44:14.220 Brett's DNA looks like together in our child. And it really made me think of how much plastic

00:44:22.740 surgery Demi has had because your child is going to look nothing like how you currently look.

00:44:30.260 And so it was such a fascinating thing for me to wonder about this thing she's craving

00:44:35.940 when she has gone to such lengths to change what her own DNA led to. And I'm sorry, I always think

00:44:45.140 of the kids. I always think of, I mean, anyone out there, I think anyone out there knows what

00:44:51.720 it's like to compare yourself to your mom specifically or a parent and how you are

00:44:58.480 different and like I like one huge pain point for me growing up is that my mom is very very very

00:45:04.980 naturally slender and I'm very naturally not I'm a I'm a curvy gal and so especially in the early

00:45:12.380 2000s when thinness was like the only thing you could be it was so painful for me that like I

00:45:18.380 couldn't be like my mom and so I just think of all these children whose parents get intense

00:45:26.300 plastic surgery and then if you're the child that would have looked like your parent and I don't

00:45:31.320 know it just it seems like it's going to be a really tough tension that is a modern newer issue

00:45:38.920 that I think is going to come up a lot more and more and let's see what else do I want to say

00:45:44.240 about Demi. Demi, you were so shitty in this season. You made Zach look good. That should 0.99

00:45:50.800 have been impossible. That's how shitty of a friend she was. Another moment, now this is the 0.99

00:45:58.240 opposite of what I've been saying. There was this moment where Taylor was really suffering in her

00:46:04.120 relationship with Dakota. And Brett took a hold of that dinner party and was like, do you feel

00:46:10.460 like you don't deserve love. And like, you are worthy of love. You are worthy of God's love. And

00:46:15.080 I said, yummy, yummy Bishop vibes that I said, Oh yeah, I forgot what it's like when I, when I say

00:46:26.080 forgot, I mean, like I used to attend LDS church, which I've mentioned a bunch, but like when a man

00:46:30.120 like that, like just really firmly is like, God loves you. And you're like, it's just, I was like,

00:46:35.720 oh yeah, I forgot how compelling this is. And the men in that church are really taught to be these,

00:46:43.960 whether they are or not, the stereotype for men, at least in my limited Mormon experience,

00:46:50.580 really was to perform a rubric of man that I think exists in romance novels. You know,

00:46:57.680 like they're really kind, they're really giving, they help others, they provide for their family,

00:47:01.780 they're good fathers they have good morals whether they are those qualities or not those

00:47:08.200 were the qualities that were upheld in the men in the community I grew up in I remember my best

00:47:11.980 friend's dad was like very much like a Brett and I just forgot oh listen maybe I'm Mormon pilled

00:47:16.380 but I when he started telling Taylor like how loved she was and Taylor has a lot of dad daddy

00:47:21.380 issues and so do I I went yeah I forgot how nice a little dinner party sermon like that feels coming

00:47:28.060 from coming from a roid man just feels very powerful and finally I'll just say it was so

00:47:35.360 cool cool yeah I loved how meta this season got because I think often in reality shows when it

00:47:42.020 gets meta it still feels very scripted it feels almost like they're breaking the storylines

00:47:48.120 whereas they are so new to fame and filming that when they are discussing how much they're being

00:47:54.900 paid? Who's getting the spotlight? Who gets the cover? They are really discussing it and they

00:48:00.060 mean it. And Demi saying that quote, we need to take turns. Who gets the spotlight? Who gets

00:48:06.980 interviews? Who gets to stand in the middle of photo shoots? I said, oh, Taylor wasn't making

00:48:12.120 up the CMA's drama. Like, yes, you all side messaged her or whatever. But in some views of

00:48:18.540 Taylor's CMA drama, you could think like, oh, Taylor was being petty and she was making drama 0.96

00:48:24.680 where there wasn't any because these girls all wished her like a happy CMAs but she was picking

00:48:29.020 up on something very real which is that Demi wants to be at the CMAs presenting an award terribly

00:48:35.200 sorry Taylor but that was she's really good at being herself on a reality show she's not

00:48:41.160 don't give her lines you can see that like Demi wants that and Demi being like Jesse should get

00:48:46.960 kicked out so I should make more money and Jesse is her best friend and thinking like that owning

00:48:51.840 it was fun. I said, oh, see, this is why you got to go back to being a side character. We can't

00:48:58.060 spend this much time on you because you're, you get so much wrong. Also, Demi full throat screaming, 1.00

00:49:04.120 we need to be healthy and successful was another real favorite moment of mine. Let's go into Jesse

00:49:10.180 where I, again, I say, damn, you and Demi made Zach like Jen's best option. Jen herself had to 0.98

00:49:18.280 turn back to her husband because you were such terrible friends. Jessie's interesting for me

00:49:24.420 and that she really always reads like a sidelined character, even though she so intensely wants to

00:49:30.620 lead. Like the amount of toxicity she just threw at the camera was real fun. She's like, I'll invite

00:49:37.280 them. I'll dress as them. I'll pull this prank, like whatever will get me on camera. But when

00:49:44.020 presented with a real deep issue, which is that Demi said your salon business sucked. The entire 1.00

00:49:50.620 reason you're on the show, to promote Jay-Z Styles, obviously. She genuinely was like,

00:49:55.080 Jessie's bad at hair. That is Jessie's identity. And genuinely was like, Jessie's worthless on the

00:50:00.540 show. Get rid of her and give me more money. It took her episodes to lightly confront Demi. 1.00

00:50:07.760 and you can see her hurt but it all stays within which i think she's just slowly processing that

00:50:16.400 but it doesn't make for great tv where like you want her to process and act on her feelings and

00:50:21.840 i don't think she's ready for that because we also didn't see any of the issues in her marriage

00:50:27.220 which clearly at the end of the season talking about how maybe jesse cheated maybe she didn't

00:50:31.740 maybe they're getting divorced so them's the rumors on reddit right now we didn't get to see 0.86

00:50:36.700 any glimpses of that because i don't think she brings her emotions forth she like she can do

00:50:42.140 like high level thought of this costume will fuck them up but she's not going to emotionally be

00:50:47.220 present in the scene and or show or share her relationship however one vip moment for jesse

00:50:54.380 her being like i don't know if i i don't know if i believe in the in the book of mormon and i don't

00:51:01.280 know if i'm mormon anymore and they were all like what and she was like i mean there weren't phones

00:51:06.300 back then. So there's not proof. I mean, how do we know? And I said, yeah, I love the rudimentary

00:51:12.700 thinking. There weren't phones back when Joseph got the Mormon plates. So how do we know if he 0.88

00:51:20.420 really got them or not? Right, Jesse? So fun. And also this conversation where learning that

00:51:28.780 unless you go through the church process, you will still be sealed to your ex-husband and go

00:51:35.300 to heaven with him rather than your next husband or future husband or no husband and how that shakes

00:51:42.260 their belief I'm like yes or how you need to be married to the father of your child in order to

00:51:48.460 be sealed to your kids and see them in heaven like that's you know patriarchy being embedded

00:51:54.260 in a religion and when they are taking all the power back in present day but have this like

00:52:00.220 heaven life they have to think of where their husband's still in charge it's making them

00:52:04.800 rethink the religion. And I thought that was like one of the cooler glimpses or more fascinating

00:52:08.880 glimpses into some of the deeper and more nuanced parts of Mormonism that I don't always think make

00:52:14.020 it to screen. Okay. Macy, I didn't write anything. I have no notes and I have no notes, man. I even

00:52:25.100 know there's gonna, well, I, there should be stuff in her memoir about, you know, getting pregnant

00:52:31.440 and losing the father to her child while she's a student at BYU, while she still tries to uphold

00:52:36.520 Mormonism. I couldn't sketch her husband's face from memory if I tried. And I know he was on

00:52:42.240 screen at least once. I appreciate her if she is the only glue actually keeping them a group,

00:52:49.120 but I don't know if she is. And if not, like, what are we doing? What do we bring into camera?

00:52:54.200 Macy, what are you doing here? Did you just get stuck with this group of friends and you were

00:52:58.660 too nice to make different ones. I'm curious why she wants to be on this show. And I hope we see

00:53:06.380 a reason for it in season three, because it can't really be selling that many of her baby vitamin

00:53:11.300 gummies, can it? Michaela. Oh, Michaela. Okay, VIP moment. Let me start with my favorite moment

00:53:20.100 of Michaela this entire season. Michaela knowing how to pronounce Norlins from Princess Tiana.

00:53:28.660 listen this is theme of the podcast theme of the podcast which is that we can learn a lot

00:53:35.100 from low level quote trashy art a disney princess movie that these are actually our culture makers 1.00

00:53:41.900 this bitch knew how to pronounce norlands because of princess tiana and the rest of them are like 0.91

00:53:49.420 new orleans new orlans really if you are really really from norlands which i'm not gonna be able 0.95

00:53:54.960 to do this correctly, but I did live in New Orleans with my mom for six hot months of my

00:53:59.180 life when I was a teenager. It's closer to like New Orleans. Like it's one word. Listen,

00:54:05.000 Patreon comments. I know you will explain this better than I can, but it's closer to New Orleans

00:54:08.320 versus New Orleans. I'm really worried every time a therapist agrees to be on camera in a reality

00:54:17.080 show, specifically a sexual trauma therapist. I've been in therapist situations where they

00:54:24.560 They have recommended that exercise that we saw on camera where it's like, say everything to me that you wish you could say to your abuser. And I could, I mean, I couldn't do it. I couldn't, my personal experience is that I couldn't do it without cameras. I couldn't do it then. I've never successfully done that exercise because it's so difficult.

00:54:42.020 I'm really glad that people can I do think from feedback I've gotten from this podcast I think

00:54:49.380 I'm pretty close to the surface with my emotions I cry all the time saying how I feel and think

00:54:55.060 isn't one of my issues I have many but that's not one of them and that exercise for me was

00:54:59.720 impossible Michaela doing it on camera for what seems to be truly her first times going to therapy

00:55:08.860 for this childhood sexual abuse just felt like that's when you just wish a producer would say

00:55:15.120 no, Michaela would say no, or the therapist would say no. It really worries me every time I see a

00:55:21.460 therapist making a decision that, and listen, I only have, I've seen a lot of therapists. Have

00:55:26.560 you read my book? There's only one that really has changed my life. It's my current one. And

00:55:30.860 when I think like, would my therapist ever do that? Like I know she would never go on camera.

00:55:35.340 I know she would, I would, there's no party I could throw and she would attend. Like there's

00:55:41.400 just, and she'll tell me the boundaries of why and how it affects the practice and the client

00:55:46.080 therapist relationship, patient therapist relationship. And so, yeah, it's just very

00:55:51.060 odd to me. And I feel sad for Michaela. I don't think this should be how she's processing it.

00:55:54.940 If you don't know Michaela's backstory, it's not on camera enough. She was kicked out of her house. 1.00

00:55:59.860 it's clearly coming here's what I think it is I think her mom's husband sexually abused Michaela

00:56:07.700 blew the whistle on it her mom said I don't believe you kicked Michaela out of the house

00:56:11.140 when she was 15 she gets a job she has to live with her sisters she has to survive on her own

00:56:15.860 she meets her husband at the I want to say it was like a soda shop where she was working how do I

00:56:21.280 know this I listened to some weird podcasts some weird weird podcasts a long time ago during season

00:56:25.400 one and as a 15 year old meets this I believe 21 year old or he's a lot older they have sex she

00:56:33.080 gets pregnant they are married that is the husband we now see and so that's just a lot now that said

00:56:38.800 I'm really not into low energy fighting I want you to I want you to mean it and Michaela brings

00:56:45.480 such low energy to the game that I I need more of it and it really is a classic like someone who's

00:56:53.180 great on Tik TOK is actually not great in long form or not great live, not a great performer,

00:56:58.640 but crushes it on Tik TOK. And that's Michaela. And she holds a lot of power in the group because

00:57:03.240 next to Taylor, she has the most followers on Tik TOK. She might even have the most now.

00:57:07.200 And so she holds that power in the group, but it's, it doesn't cross over to camera.

00:57:13.540 Miranda. My first note is, oh my God, I forgot Miranda was here. What a letdown. What a letdown

00:57:21.700 to finally bring on the other wife who was swinging, 1.00

00:57:27.860 who denied Taylor's claims, 0.68

00:57:30.040 who was her best friend,

00:57:31.760 who was at points her lover.

00:57:34.820 Finally, finally get her on the show.

00:57:37.260 And it brought nothing.

00:57:38.620 It brought nothing.

00:57:40.060 Now that said, Miranda, I love her.

00:57:44.200 I hope she stays.

00:57:45.020 I loved her presence.

00:57:46.360 And I'm like, why?

00:57:47.360 She's not even bringing much.

00:57:49.500 And here's what I want to say.

00:57:50.280 I, again, this is very specific to me in my niche Utah experience, but there was a certain type

00:57:57.000 of likability in some of the quote, perfect Mormon girls that was so perfect. It consumed me

00:58:06.140 and Miranda exudes this perfectly. She has just enough of an opinion to be interesting,

00:58:14.940 but never enough that it causes drama. She's just interesting enough to be interesting,

00:58:20.580 but she's not actually interesting. She laughs at your jokes, but she's not making the jokes.

00:58:25.540 It's this Mormon-like ability that I can't put my finger on and it's still working on me because I 0.98

00:58:30.880 was like, yay, Miranda's here. At the end of the season, Miranda is weighing in on what mom talk 0.97

00:58:35.580 should be. And I was like, wow, what a change. What a change. Let's see. I hope I just, I want

00:58:41.240 more from Miranda next season. I want a lot. Okay. We've got three more wives. Here we go.

00:58:47.260 Jen. I feel really, really sad for Jen. Jen is another one of these wives who you don't see

00:58:55.380 their backstory enough, which is like at some points when Jen was a teenager, like she'd been 1.00

00:59:00.080 kicked out and was homeless. And again, has this horrible power dynamic with Zach, where his dad

00:59:07.500 is the head of the hospital where her mom is a cleaner and to her have gotten this I'm sure she 0.67

00:59:13.980 felt at the time perfect the most blondest man in Utah became her husband and also like there's

00:59:21.540 also racial undertones in Utah as everywhere of course but also Utah has a specific relationship

00:59:28.100 with them and Jen being Latina and that playing a role and like what it must have meant for Zach

00:59:35.420 to marry her where like it probably never would have been said out loud that his family didn't

00:59:39.180 want him to do that. But it's hard for me to imagine, at least in the communities I grew up

00:59:44.160 in, that there weren't some like hidden feelings or some conversations where his parents pulled

00:59:48.800 him aside. And I think that's probably a part of their marriage. I think Jen is an extreme people

00:59:54.520 pleaser and that makes her stretch the truth. And I think she's in an emotionally abusive 1.00

00:59:59.840 relationship with Zach I think it is psychotic psychotic that he is trying to on camera say that

01:00:07.340 Jen made up the Affleck thing and get her to agree with it to not embarrass his family and not

01:00:12.740 embarrass himself because clearly she's like why did your grandpa say it to me then and I think

01:00:18.840 he's doing a lot of that I think he was like in order for us to stay together do not talk about

01:00:24.040 how I gambled my medical school money away. Okay. And then she's collapsing under the pressure of

01:00:31.000 Demi and Jesse being like, well, are you a liar or not a liar? I really, my heart is breaking for 0.56

01:00:35.840 her. The little press tour she's doing with Zach, where I think she's trying to participate and keep

01:00:41.520 this career and do all the interviews. She's trying to show up, but I think it's damaging.

01:00:47.360 I think Zach is loving it way too much. And the saddest scene I think I've ever seen definitely

01:00:51.720 in the history of the show, but also of any reality show is the scene where Jen finds out

01:00:56.540 she's pregnant and she's sobbing because she does not want to be pregnant. And their other child is

01:01:05.000 on their lap as she cries and a camera is there. And the child's looking into the camera and says,

01:01:11.520 I'm scared. That was the time where I said, maybe I can't watch this show anymore. I just feel really

01:01:17.680 sad and now Zach is like she tricked me into having a baby she took her IUD out and she's

01:01:23.660 laughing through it but like I just think there's a much darker more complicated backstory to all of

01:01:28.220 this Whitney Whitney Whitney Whitney Whitney please please come back into season three more

01:01:36.260 and be our villain again we need you and since Whitney is Demi's only friend I do think we're

01:01:41.160 gonna get a villain duo I like it I want it Whitney do you know when someone does a somersault

01:01:47.340 but it's they're not like a gymnast right so they're just kind of like they're doing they're

01:01:51.440 doing a roll they've done a somersault roll on the ground but it's not like impressive it's just

01:01:55.240 kind of like you just kind of like flop into a somersault that's what Whitney did back into mom

01:02:00.820 talk she just kind of like somersault floppy rolled back into mom talk and at the very last

01:02:07.020 end of the episode she's like yay I'm back and I need more of her and my VIP moment actually goes

01:02:15.400 to her husband, Connor, who shockingly, I think only had one haircut this season. And he talked

01:02:23.500 about cheating and being a cheater and letting Whitney down and what they had to do to get back

01:02:28.480 together. It was in context of him advising Taylor and Dakota, to which I said, I don't know if you

01:02:34.180 should be giving the advice here. But I liked that it was talked about because this was one of the

01:02:39.300 craziest bombshells of season one that just got moved on from way too soon and Connor is also

01:02:48.240 really selling this narrative of like I don't cheat anymore and I've made it better and we

01:02:52.320 made it through to the point where I believe him and that can't be good something crazy is

01:02:57.420 going to happen in later seasons and finally Taylor Taylor can carry a reality show on her 1.00

01:03:07.560 back. And she does without even trying. She has an avalanche of volatile emotions that I sadly 1.00

01:03:18.180 relate to, but she lets them all out on camera. I'm so happy that it looks like from the show

01:03:27.920 airing, she and Dakota are finally over. I am so sad that they named their son Ever True.

01:03:36.980 Ever True. When their entire storyline is Dakota lying to her. I think once she realizes

01:03:45.860 that there are better men than Dakota out there, her life's going to change.

01:03:49.600 I hope she takes a trip out of state and meets some of them. Taylor being handed multiple phones

01:03:56.940 and reading the incriminating evidence herself this season.

01:04:01.100 Wow, what a gift.

01:04:02.480 She had two phones handed to her this season.

01:04:04.900 And finally, her mom coming in in the Christmas party.

01:04:09.860 I have a lot of thoughts about this.

01:04:11.060 Taylor sends her mom in or her mom taps in every season.

01:04:16.340 It's weird. 0.98

01:04:17.280 I would say like it is so crazy that Demi was so shitty 0.95

01:04:20.940 that you aren't even mad that Taylor sent her mom

01:04:24.980 to fight her fight, which is where you should be like, I think it's Katie on Vanderpump roles who

01:04:29.880 always taps her mom in to do the fighting. It's like, get your sweet moms off the reality show

01:04:34.880 and out of that bar and do the fighting yourself. I don't respect that move. And yet Demi handled 1.00

01:04:40.580 it so poorly. I ended up being mad at Demi. However, did Taylor send her mom in or did 1.00

01:04:48.180 Taylor's mom say, I didn't do a tip to puss full body makeover and carry 40 pounds of extensions 1.00

01:04:53.860 on my head not to walk in and steal a scene this season. And I will be delivering that Christmas

01:05:00.220 gift and crying because I'm also now one of the Mormon wives who looks 21 years old, thanks to 0.99

01:05:07.480 some of the craziest plastic surgery one could ever get. I think she was like, I will be on 0.98

01:05:14.040 camera, Taylor. You sit your ass down. I'm delivering a shady gift. That's what I think 1.00

01:05:17.720 happened. That is my wife rundown. What if I missed one of the wives? That would be funny. 1.00

01:05:24.720 That would say more than what I've said. I think I got to all the wives. Thank you again for 0.90

01:05:30.100 messaging and writing in and making this a safe space for me to yell about Mormon wives. I of 1.00

01:05:34.480 course want all your thoughts in the Patreon comments. That's why we have a Patreon so we

01:05:37.640 can read the comments. I know there are some exmos, some current Mormons, some different people

01:05:43.340 at different religious places in their life that I think can bring a lot to this conversation.

01:05:48.160 Patreon is the place to have it.

01:05:49.880 We have a whole chat,

01:05:50.860 but also the comments on the actual post.

01:05:52.840 So I would love to hear your takes.

01:05:55.360 Like I said, I only spent eight years there

01:05:57.000 when I was a kid.

01:05:57.740 So I want, like,

01:05:58.980 I just want people's takes on this.

01:06:00.420 It's so fascinating.

01:06:01.460 I could discuss it forever.

01:06:03.280 And thank you so much for listening.

01:06:05.260 And we will return to your normal literary book

01:06:08.660 and article content,

01:06:10.200 at least until Love Island drops.

01:06:12.260 And if it's a good season, I'll be back.

01:06:17.720 A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer,

01:06:21.800 Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hom, and our amazing associate producer,

01:06:25.560 Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks, but you want to support

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Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - June 08, 2025

Sunday Nice Things： Glamorous Trash

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