Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Sunday Nice Things： On Drugs, from Other People’s Problems

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00:01:13.540 Welcome to Sunday Nice Things.

00:01:15.740 Today, I'm dropping a brand new podcast in your feed called Other People's Problems.

00:01:22.160 Normally, therapy sessions are totally confidential.

00:01:25.080 but this podcast throws open those doors. On this season, the host Dr. Hilary McBride explores the

00:01:32.440 transformative power of psychedelics in a therapeutic setting. With her psychological

00:01:37.500 expertise, Dr. Hilary leads clients through drug-assisted therapy, guiding them to new

00:01:42.400 heights on their healing journeys. You get to experience these real, unscripted sessions

00:01:47.340 firsthand as they unfold and get an unprecedented look at therapy using psychedelics and psychoactive

00:01:53.360 drugs. In this episode, we're hearing from Brandy, who has social anxiety because she grew up in a

00:01:59.900 cult where members gathered regularly around her family's dinner table to talk about mortality and

00:02:05.760 sin. That would give me social anxiety as well. I can relate, Brandy. To cope, Brandy hid at the

00:02:13.500 top of the stairs in silence, afraid to even go down to get a snack. In this session, using

00:02:19.160 cannabis, she imagines herself and Hillary bulldozing into the room, taking a stand on

00:02:24.300 the kitchen table together, and demanding her freedom. It's a wild ride. Buckle up.

00:02:31.960 Hi everyone, Hillary here. This season of Other People's Problems is about therapy using

00:02:37.980 psychedelics and other psychoactive drugs. I'm a registered psychologist in my home province

00:02:43.440 of British Columbia, and everything we've included is legal and I am licensed to do.

00:02:47.320 okay

00:02:51.280 how's the medicine feeling in your body so i think it's kicking it a little bit i think so

00:02:58.780 yeah i can feel it yeah nice okay

00:03:03.420 i'm dr hillary mcbride this is a really special season of other people's problems

00:03:15.700 These are real-life therapy sessions using psychedelics and psychoactive drugs.

00:03:20.240 I don't think anyone has ever gotten to hear what these sorts of sessions actually sound like.

00:03:24.720 So this is really important and new.

00:03:27.620 And for this one, you'll hear me and my patient we're calling Brandy.

00:03:37.040 Okay, my name is Brandy, and I've been working with Hillary in therapy for over seven years.

00:03:44.100 this was probably my fourth or fifth time using cannabis in a session

00:03:50.320 for sure the cannabis is helpful as a medicine but the other medicine of this work is

00:03:58.240 the connection that i have with my body and the connection to hillary in our relationship

00:04:05.220 and those are really more powerful in this work and the cannabis i feel just

00:04:11.320 allows me to access those other connections and those other medicines

00:04:17.160 much more easily than I could without using the cannabis.

00:04:24.280 She had profound social anxiety and had a history of religious abuse and trauma from her childhood.

00:04:31.680 She'd grown up in a cult and her father was actually one of the main leaders in that cult.

00:04:36.340 and as we started our journey of therapy she became more and more connected to her queer

00:04:44.220 identity she since ended her marriage as it looked at that time and has been engaged in

00:04:50.960 relationships with women and exploring that part of herself and it seems at this point in our work

00:04:57.240 what we're doing is we're going back going back to places places that still keep her stuck in spite

00:05:03.560 of all the work that we've done and things that still live in her body they make it hard for her

00:05:08.320 to be connected to her voice and her power and her confidence if you're ready you can start by

00:05:20.100 noticing talking me through what you're sensing in your body find yourself in that in this session

00:05:26.080 you're hearing brandy and i do work that's a little different than some of the other sessions

00:05:29.900 she's actually online in her home and I'm in my office and again a reminder as always right the

00:05:38.680 invitation here is for us to try to set down some of the ways that you get away from experiences

00:05:44.700 and I'm going to help you with that container just by reminding you to ease up on movement

00:05:49.900 and things like that but if at any point it doesn't feel like it's working for you you need

00:05:55.540 to know that it can end you can stop it at any point okay yeah okay i feel just a general

00:06:03.680 tingly buzziness but nothing really specific yet yeah so even those little things like the

00:06:10.420 wiggling of the toes and the swallowing it may help to try to intensify what's happening

00:06:17.240 close those

00:06:20.080 those doors

00:06:21.980 I feel like I want you to

00:06:24.700 be there before I go somewhere

00:06:26.920 yeah

00:06:27.780 I want to be there

00:06:30.400 too

00:06:31.700 before you have to go there

00:06:34.020 I'm afraid

00:06:37.460 you're afraid yeah

00:06:39.240 there's just

00:06:41.880 resistance to connect

00:06:44.240 because if you connect

00:06:46.980 to what might happen because we're gonna go and break these patterns that are really comfortable

00:06:57.320 and old and normal that feels great yeah because it might get harder it might get harder yeah yeah

00:07:16.980 As a child, I really had to live a lot of my life very dissociated

00:07:25.560 and disconnected from myself and my body

00:07:28.420 because of a very high-control religious system that I was raised in.

00:07:34.600 Not having caregivers to help me in those moments when I needed it most

00:07:43.200 just built this serious distrust in myself.

00:07:49.060 So I think I'm saying in this clip that it's scary to perhaps go back into things

00:07:56.080 knowing that it will change.

00:07:59.200 In my experience with this work, something has to change when you do this work.

00:08:05.120 And although I want it to change, it's very scary to change

00:08:08.500 because it's a comfortable way that I've lived most of my life prior to this.

00:08:13.200 they they helped me even though they weren't necessarily healthy ways of being in the world

00:08:23.140 they did protect me and help me survive in a lot of ways

00:08:26.580 the thing that I love most about what she says here is that I think she's being really clear

00:08:36.460 about something that happens that a lot of people that they might not say out loud

00:08:40.320 which is that the thing that is keeping them stuck is also kind of working for them in a way

00:08:46.720 and the idea of moving forward or expanding beyond the small worlds that we've created for

00:08:53.820 ourselves as much as that might be something that some part of us wants there might be also another

00:09:00.580 part of us that is not feeling ready for that freedom or that healing and so we live in this

00:09:06.140 tension of feeling like, oh, we really want something to be different, but it might be

00:09:10.960 really scary if it is.

00:09:23.740 And my sense is that it is already actually quite hard even just to tell me about this.

00:09:30.340 I want you to know there's nothing that we could face on the other side of this as we

00:09:34.660 break the patterns that would change how I feel about you that would make me want to punish or

00:09:40.860 hurt or shame or judge you I just want to feel it with you and have me by your side so you don't

00:09:47.740 have to be alone in scary feelings anymore what happens inside as I say that I want you to come

00:10:02.540 just don't really sense it yet yeah so how about we hang out with this exactly as it is right now

00:10:11.480 and i'll be here waiting with you as long as it takes notice everything about what you're feeling

00:10:18.580 inside every muscle i just know it's going to get worse yeah yeah and when it does get worse

00:10:30.300 you can draw on this connection that you and i have and we can go right into the most awful

00:10:37.780 parts of it together none of this and none of what you're about to feel is about this moment

00:10:44.920 today all about everything your body was feeling all that time ago

00:10:53.180 sometimes it can get a little disorienting on psychedelics because people feel

00:11:04.900 very very very scared and my job as someone who knows her and loves her and has come to understand

00:11:12.060 her story really deeply also knows that she's safe in her home that she's actually laying in bed and

00:11:18.640 I'm seeing everything that's happening, and I know that her body is safe and protected,

00:11:23.220 I'm wanting to be able to clearly outline that if the terror or the awfulness or the pain emerges,

00:11:29.360 it's because she's finally safe enough to go back to feel everything about what it felt like at that time.

00:11:35.700 i had sessions prior to this where i wasn't able to ride that wave of intensity to the other side

00:11:49.920 where i come out and into a very relaxed state of calm

00:11:55.860 and so I had some where it became so intense that I had to stop and I believe I was feeling

00:12:08.180 in this session that I didn't know if I was capable

00:12:10.260 then none of it will hurt you

00:12:19.260 break you

00:12:21.260 even in its awfulness

00:12:27.080 well you are with me

00:12:35.300 and i'm pushing you in wheelbarrow

00:12:40.600 and that's how we're to move forward okay i can see that on your face yeah

00:12:50.100 my legs again i can see that i don't know yet where we're going

00:12:57.780 yeah let's just be in that we don't know where we're going i feel like you're in the front

00:13:04.120 and you're facing forward because you're going to tell me where to go okay

00:13:11.000 okay i'm gonna tell you where to go really pay attention to those legs

00:13:18.420 all the energy in your body is moving as you're pushing this wheelbarrow forward yeah you're

00:13:26.320 pointing but i don't know where we're going but you're just pointing and i'm following wherever

00:13:32.900 your point yeah that's right the story will unfold stay with your body if you can

00:13:39.240 really try to keep that foot still if you can don't let any of the energy out through that

00:13:45.840 shaking just see what happens where does the energy go if your foot won't shake

00:13:50.480 just pulsing in the back wow really feel that beat feel the intensity of that pulse there

00:14:00.760 right there

00:14:03.020 I'm with you

00:14:04.940 I can see this

00:14:05.940 yeah

00:14:06.240 yeah

00:14:08.920 yeah it looks so uncomfortable

00:14:12.240 so tight in your body

00:14:14.540 you have a sense of

00:14:17.760 what feels most scary about being here

00:14:20.760 I'm afraid I'll feel

00:14:23.700 so embarrassed

00:14:26.460 again

00:14:27.020 yeah

00:14:27.800 yeah

00:14:29.460 she just said i'm afraid i'll feel so embarrassed again around people

00:14:38.980 when we think about what social anxiety does we often think about the way that people

00:14:48.660 pull themselves away from connection isolating themselves creating small relational worlds that

00:14:56.240 that don't expose them to these feelings that feel unbearable.

00:15:00.180 And I think that one of the things that Brandy feels often when she's around people

00:15:04.880 is embarrassed, scared, ashamed, uncertain, unsteady.

00:15:13.340 My understanding is that she was made to feel that way a lot growing up.

00:15:17.940 And that when she's around people, it's almost like her body,

00:15:21.260 Her nervous system has learned to anticipate that how she's going to feel in the present with people is exactly like how she felt a lot growing up.

00:15:42.000 Is this what it feels like to be embarrassed in front of people?

00:15:45.900 Is this what happened in your body?

00:15:48.220 I think so.

00:15:49.000 I feel like I'm curled up in a ball

00:15:51.880 feeling all this

00:15:53.060 let your body show you just

00:15:57.740 how small it wanted to make you

00:16:00.060 a big group of people

00:16:04.460 at our house

00:16:05.520 like downstairs

00:16:07.320 sitting around

00:16:10.480 a table or

00:16:11.980 having like a bible study

00:16:14.600 or something

00:16:15.160 you're all alone curled up in a ball in the closet in your room

00:16:21.840 i just want a snack yeah yeah notice what this feels like you really want a snack but you can't

00:16:30.600 go down yeah just like this let your body feel it this is what it's like um right there yeah

00:16:41.320 stay with it i'm with you with you all the way in this your body's telling us just how awful it was

00:16:50.680 right yes yes

00:16:56.600 are you pushing your feet together to stop them from moving

00:17:03.560 yeah uh-huh

00:17:05.000 you can see that notice where the energy is coming from and see what happens if they don't

00:17:12.600 chatter uh i'm feeling angry that's right i can't go down i guess yeah yeah you're angry

00:17:21.580 feel where that ain't by everybody to get to the kitchen yeah that's right that's right yeah

00:17:28.280 Yeah, good. Let it crunch you. Really let that anger do what it wants. It never got to do what it wanted. I can see all of this. There's nothing embarrassing about this.

00:17:42.920 my house was a place where people were continually coming and going

00:17:58.380 my parents hosted a lot of people for various meals and bible studies and

00:18:08.520 And as a child who was typically shy, it was really difficult for me, just this constant overwhelm.

00:18:19.760 And it felt silly, maybe, to say I just wanted a snack, but it involved me going past a whole group of people.

00:18:30.860 I would sit at the top of the stairs and listen to see who was there.

00:18:37.240 And there was so much talk about who's going to hell and who's not and who's saved and who's doomed and this type of thing.

00:18:46.680 And I didn't realize until really quite recently that I might not have been that super shy child if I felt more comfortable with what was being talked about.

00:19:07.240 One way to make sense of what's happening for Brandy 0.74

00:19:14.220 is that there's actually a form of religious abuse happening

00:19:17.340 where people who are considered religious authorities

00:19:20.600 and religious leaders are using religious ideas

00:19:24.760 and practices to oppress and harm

00:19:28.100 not just her, but many in the community.

00:19:33.760 And this has long-lasting impacts on people.

00:19:37.240 I mean, the shame, the chronic shame that Brandy has felt, the fear about the future, the perfectionism and the sense of being surveyed.

00:19:48.120 There are so many different ways that religious abuse can manifest in two forms of religious trauma.

00:19:54.740 But one of the things that I see the most in people is this fundamental core belief that they are bad.

00:20:00.820 and not only are they bad but it's actually because god wants them to feel that way

00:20:08.580 there's lots more that i could say about that in fact i wrote a book about it called holy hurt

00:20:15.760 but for now what i want for you to understand is that she's been out of that community for

00:20:20.640 decades and is still grappling with the messages that she learned about herself

00:20:25.040 you want to impress them on a first date but also play it cool so what do you do i'm rufy thorpe

00:20:48.200 and i wrote and read a real love story about a hinge couple that navigated exactly that

00:20:53.020 Listen to the free audiobook now.

00:21:23.020 is made to help. Download it now.

00:21:28.220 What's here?

00:21:29.160 Let it surprise you.

00:21:32.060 I put you in a wheelbarrow

00:21:34.580 and 0.99

00:21:36.000 I'm pushing you down

00:21:38.600 the stairs. Good.

00:21:40.900 Yeah.

00:21:41.740 And right in, like, just smashing

00:21:45.000 into the table where I'm just sitting.

00:21:47.300 Yeah. It's a little hard to hear

00:21:49.260 but she says that she's got

00:21:51.100 me in a wheelbarrow and that we're smashing to the table where everyone's sitting feel what

00:21:56.080 happens in your body as you see that that's right let it build let it build yeah I see all that in

00:22:04.560 your legs yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and instead of pushing your feet down or together to try to

00:22:11.220 stop the shaking see if you can just tighten everything in your body to inhibit that close

00:22:19.520 all the valves use up all the energy good good i'm just screaming at my parents in front of all

00:22:29.840 these people that they've ruined my life yeah yeah feel that where that's care about all these

00:22:36.580 strangers instead of me feel where that string scream is coming from in your throat really stay

00:22:43.100 with the sensation as you see that feel yeah good right there all that energy in that mouth

00:22:50.140 and throat I can see it feel what this is like in your body to have this much anger and energy 0.98

00:22:56.220 I was just screaming I just want a fucking snack good good good 0.98

00:23:04.140 just staring at me that's right show show us show them oh it's my arms oh yeah 0.99

00:23:13.220 let me stay with you good good good notice what happens inside when you can feel me with you

00:23:23.440 i'm not gonna leave good that's right i'm not gonna leave and notice what happens

00:23:28.780 I just need to have my arms on yes what's holding them protecting me

00:23:35.360 but I don't need that anymore good good notice what that's like you are strong enough you are

00:23:43.260 connected enough you are brave enough you're yeah good good right here right here I don't feel

00:23:52.940 scared anymore good a lot of power that's right you were scared for too long you do not have to

00:23:59.640 be scared they're still standing right on the top of the table we're still there good of course we

00:24:06.020 are i can see those hands everybody else is scared now yeah feel how powerful you are notice every

00:24:15.400 ounce of power in your body just notice just something i don't know what it is something

00:24:21.560 to destroy the rope good good yeah i'm gonna destroy the rope see how i do it 0.52

00:24:31.640 we're gonna destroy the rope together

00:24:34.880 so at this point uh hillary and i are standing on the table my hands are tied and

00:24:49.000 people are sitting all around us and they're

00:24:52.780 I can tell that now I'm in this place of power and they're all afraid

00:24:57.400 and I don't know what's going to happen

00:25:01.500 all I know is that I really need my hands untied 1.00

00:25:05.120 and Hillary takes 1.00

00:25:08.920 a violin string and wraps it around 1.00

00:25:13.340 these ropes and yanks it and just breaks these

00:25:16.660 ropes off my arms and freeze me and and everyone's watching kind of in horror I

00:25:25.640 can just sort of see them looking up like oh what's gonna happen

00:25:28.080 to me this feels like a quintessential trauma healing moment if trauma leaves us disempowered

00:25:38.920 and without agency that going back to that memory and getting to do it differently and

00:25:43.900 finding power and agency is exactly what she needs. And in the back of my mind, I also have

00:25:52.240 some delight, like a little bit of an inner chuckle. I am still constantly surprised at where we go.

00:26:02.480 There is some humor to it. Just the kind of the outlandish things that

00:26:07.800 sometimes come up when I do this work. There's often these very wild, interesting stories. I

00:26:15.420 mean, the part where I'm pushing Hillary down the stairs in a wheelbarrow. So I just try to go with

00:26:21.880 whatever comes in the moment. And sometimes it's really wild and interesting. And later when I

00:26:26.920 reflect, it might have more significance than it seems in the moment. And sometimes it's just

00:26:31.820 silly and weird i think in the cult-like environment that she grew up in there was

00:26:40.980 so much rigidity and control on her creative expression that us being able to use the cannabis 0.72

00:26:48.160 to kind of allow her mind to go where it goes and to trust that it's going to give us all sorts of

00:26:53.260 imagery and metaphor and symbolism well i think that's healing in and of itself

00:26:58.620 what are you most noticing

00:27:10.680 a lot calmer yeah so much tingling in my head yeah i feel that doing so well

00:27:25.460 this is how

00:27:28.120 just pick up all the ropes

00:27:33.400 yeah

00:27:34.540 and they go around

00:27:37.380 and we gather all the bibles

00:27:39.060 that are on the floor

00:27:40.180 just tie up all 0.98

00:27:43.200 the bibles 0.98

00:27:43.840 yeah

00:27:44.960 just a big pile

00:27:48.260 big pile

00:27:49.340 good

00:27:50.460 your body knows what to do here 0.54

00:27:52.800 just light the pile on fire good see that

00:27:57.700 when the bible is a sacred text like any other sacred text when people use imagery like this

00:28:08.180 it can be hurtful for some of us in fact listening to this i'm wanting for you to know

00:28:14.620 that my understanding of the bible isn't defiled by what brandy is saying

00:28:21.500 here what i'm hearing brandy say is that she's communicating to these people in her religious

00:28:29.580 community that the tools that they use to oppress and silence and abuse her are not

00:28:36.060 going to continue to function that way inside of her or in her life anymore

00:28:39.880 and i think it's a reminder for us about all sorts of things that we call beautiful or things that

00:28:47.200 maybe we love or value that it's possible for us to take beautiful things and do really awful

00:28:53.980 abusive things with them notice what happens inside as you see that notice that breath

00:29:04.560 i feel so calm watching notice the calm

00:29:11.040 the image can stay there but i really want for you to feel calm

00:29:17.200 our bodies are really good at resolving the intensity when they get what they need

00:29:30.260 her body is telling us that the thing that was missing in the original memory has now been put

00:29:39.980 into place and when we get the thing that we need when it feels like it's over all of that

00:29:46.960 emotional response the impulse around making it right that can settle down our breath returns to

00:29:56.180 normal we actually see that uh we can kind of move back to homeostasis we can move back down

00:30:03.220 to a resting connected neutral wherein we know we're safe we got through and everything's right

00:30:10.880 in the world now. So I think a lot of these sessions, if you were to hear them or watch them

00:30:18.680 in a video, would seem really crazy. It takes a really high level of trust in yourself and your

00:30:29.420 body and in the person that's caring for you and guiding you through it. It's amazing to listen to

00:30:37.100 this because I really didn't direct very much of it. You can hear that Brandy really trusts her

00:30:42.560 body. She trusts her emotion. I mean, you can hear the years and years and years of trust that we've

00:30:47.740 built between us, where she just has a sense of knowing I'm there and I'm coming with her.

00:30:52.820 And with Hillary, I developed that trust over time. It wasn't instant because of my own stuff.

00:31:02.040 and I know that I'm in good hands

00:31:06.420 and I can go to these really hard, painful places

00:31:09.240 and come out on the other side transformed.

00:31:22.620 It's a really good call.

00:31:25.320 What makes it a really good call?

00:31:28.760 How do you know?

00:31:29.800 my whole body

00:31:32.980 feels so peaceful

00:31:35.240 yeah

00:31:36.260 wow

00:31:38.180 I'm so

00:31:40.940 in awe

00:31:42.200 for the work you've just done

00:31:44.680 it's a little different

00:31:49.160 than doing it at night

00:31:50.140 yeah it's bright out

00:31:52.300 oh

00:31:53.380 yeah

00:31:56.720 wow

00:31:58.680 oh hey oh you just did a huge chunk of work

00:32:09.420 a little shaky yeah you're gonna need like a probably an electrolyte replacement or something

00:32:19.340 after that's part of this right on the aftermath of a huge piece of work the trembly

00:32:28.100 is your body reorganizing

00:32:32.420 yeah i can't see but are you sweaty yeah yeah so sweaty yeah

00:32:43.880 i really appreciate how scary so many things have been when i see the intensity that your

00:32:55.120 body went through. You showed me with your curled up, contracted, contorted body. How scared you

00:33:07.180 felt. How scared you have felt then and not so long ago. It feels good to have you witness it

00:33:20.960 and witness the other side

00:33:23.480 feels good for me to witness it too

00:33:29.800 why was it your violin string

00:33:33.780 like you took a violin string off your violin

00:33:36.180 and just like snapped the rope

00:33:38.600 I loved it

00:33:41.000 I loved everything about it

00:33:42.460 I don't know

00:33:43.440 I've never imagined that before

00:33:46.440 it was industrious

00:33:48.000 it's like there's nothing nothing's gonna stop us I'll do whatever I have to I'll take a string

00:33:54.640 off a violin nothing's standing in my way I don't know it was very effective so at the end

00:34:02.260 when you see us kind of laughing and debriefing a little bit about the session

00:34:08.040 that's really genuine like there's this feeling of oh we did this thing together

00:34:14.840 in my version of it as you were telling me I had like hot you know like 1940s pilot glasses and a

00:34:21.460 helmet and I was like I didn't see that the point is I was like it's really the complete opposite of

00:34:31.280 what she learned growing up which I think at that time was you're not allowed to stay connected to

00:34:37.360 what's going on inside of you and it's definitely going to be a problem for the people around you

00:34:42.480 not just now but in an eternal sense if you trust anything about what's inside of you

00:34:48.760 i wasn't dragging you along you were like okay we're going here's how it resolves something

00:34:54.820 she has agency she's feeling free and we're playing and at one point i was like i think

00:35:00.900 i'm supposed to carry you on my back you can hear the lightness and the ease in her in between us

00:35:06.580 It's such a hallmark of the bigness of the work

00:35:10.000 and how this really resolved something for her.

00:35:13.440 You could point the way, but I had to do it.

00:35:15.560 Maybe that was it.

00:35:16.400 I had to do the real work.

00:35:18.380 And that reminds me of our session this past week

00:35:20.900 where you're like, I want you there, but I have to do it.

00:35:24.980 You can't do it for me.

00:35:26.220 I have to do it.

00:35:32.120 The biggest thing that changed for me

00:35:34.300 with this particular kind of therapy

00:35:37.540 was this vast reduction in my social anxiety.

00:35:47.080 This work has been the most transformational

00:35:51.220 and I've done many, many different types of therapy.

00:35:54.980 But this work specifically has this

00:35:59.060 sort of immediate transformational effect.

00:36:02.380 not fully everything fixed in a moment but a lot of things

00:36:08.880 and so this happened about a year and a half ago this session and I can say that there's just been

00:36:19.760 this steady progress in a positive direction around my social anxiety and I would say at this

00:36:27.980 point. It's, I am unrecognizable really to the person I was then. When religious experiences,

00:36:40.880 ideas, practices, and communities are used in oppressive and abusive ways,

00:36:46.520 this hurts people and the hurt is real. A hallmark of religious and spiritual trauma

00:36:53.860 is people being taught that they are bad and they can't trust themselves.

00:36:59.440 A colleague of mine, Dr. Preston Hill, talks about this as kind of spiritual gaslighting,

00:37:04.320 that leaders in communities make people weary of and actually in some cases repulsed by their inner knowing

00:37:12.800 that what's inside of them becomes so threatening to their sense of religious identity and community belonging

00:37:21.360 that they do everything they can to disconnect from it altogether so what I want is not for us

00:37:29.220 to look at religion and say all religion is bad or all people who who have challenged religion

00:37:35.560 are bad not to do any of that but to see how these good and beautiful principles can be used

00:37:42.360 to harm people and that underlying some of our religious communities are the same systems that

00:37:48.300 are underlying so many other patterns of abuse. Fear, control, shame, and fragmenting people from

00:37:57.140 themselves and their bodies and each other, and ultimately, I would say, from love itself.

00:38:03.180 Other People's Problems is produced by Jodi Martinson,

00:38:19.180 mixed by Julian Uccelli and Lee Rosevear.

00:38:22.660 Jeff Turner is our senior producer.

00:38:25.140 Anna Ashite and Emily Cannell are our coordinating producers.

00:38:29.080 The executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak.

00:38:33.180 Tanya Springer is the Senior Manager, and Arif Noorani is the Director of CBC Podcasts.

00:38:38.820 For more sessions, there are five seasons of Other People's Problems available right now in our feed.

00:38:43.740 And I'm Dr. Hilary McBride.

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Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - May 25, 2025

Sunday Nice Things： On Drugs, from Other People’s Problems

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