00:06:52.780And I was trying to get stats on this in terms of how many parents actually rely on nannies, at least in New York City.
00:06:58.700And it's really, really hard to get stats.
00:07:00.180But I can tell you, like, you know, I live in lower Manhattan and in my neighborhood, I send my I actually send my child to daycare and I was absolutely in the minority of people I know.
00:07:09.760Like it was like, you know, I feel like at least 80 percent of other parents have nannies and some of them have, you know, do daycare, but they still need a nanny because they can't make the pickups or daycare ends at 3 p.m.
00:07:19.840Um, and so I just think that it's this, the nanny economy in particular, there's so much
00:07:27.780of, so much of the overall economy, um, but particularly New York City economy just relies
00:07:34.020on, um, on nannies to actually function because there's so many, um, moms and parents who0.99
00:07:39.240otherwise would not be able to go to work.0.98
00:08:53.960But from what I observe and, you know, like the people that I talked to in the story who were having to, you know, feel these inquiries and and to make decisions, it was always moms.
00:09:04.080So it's like that labor of the management of a nanny, which, by the way, is what I felt when I was making these decisions for myself about child care is something I was like, I can't handle those management responsibilities.0.59
00:09:15.780Like, I'm not a manager. I don't manage people. I'm a reporter. And I was like, I don't I don't see that being like something in my in my wheelhouse.
00:09:23.980Like that's new daycare because it is so much work. It's so much work. And it genuinely is people management.
00:09:31.380it's human resources management it's a constant negotiation are are you happy like do you do you
00:09:39.320feel taken care of what else can we be doing to make sure you're taken care of so that you can
00:09:44.620take care of our children and yeah it's a power story like this is there's so much there's so
00:09:51.600much else here we're gonna have to have you on again to dig deeper into it because I do want to
00:09:56.740get to the kind of juicy stuff that was in your story that was sent to me 25 times which is about
00:10:04.800other moms surveilling nannies and I hate the word nanny actually I hate the word nanny as much as I
00:10:12.220hate the word mommy blogger because it feels condescending it feel and it's it's something
00:10:19.080it's like a title we give to someone that we are dismissive of I do I try to use caregiver
00:10:24.820when, when I can, I wish that there were even a better word for it, but there's not, there's not.
00:10:32.080Yeah. I had to get over that a little bit as well. Cause it does, I think, but I, but then I
00:10:36.100wonder, you know, is that something that I've internalized just because of that power dynamic
00:10:39.340where we assume that it's condescending? Um, but the nannies I spoke to call themselves nannies
00:10:43.900and, you know, have proudly been career nannies. And so I sort of got over it because I was like,
00:10:47.880I don't actually, I think, you know, for people who do this as a career, like it's something
00:10:51.580they're proud of. And sure, you can call them a caregiver, but I think nanny is the term. And
00:10:58.280the only reason that maybe it seems condescending to us is because we are familiar with that power
00:11:02.900dynamic. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And most nannies I know also call themselves a nanny and are very
00:11:08.680happy with that. So it is the term that people normally use. Talk to me about this story,
00:11:15.580This story in particular. And I don't I don't think that this is necessarily limited to fancy places like New York.
00:11:25.800This is happening all over the country. This, you know, what what you call in the SEO title of this story, the bad nanny wars.0.75
00:11:35.040Yeah. Well, that's what, you know, what I started to kind of uncover was sort of this us versus them dynamic where it seemed like, you know, in a healthy nanny parent relationship, you'd think, OK, everybody's, you know, in it to take good care of a child.
00:11:56.140Like, you know, that is sort of the common interest. But when I started to hear from both parents and nannies was that they really felt like it was, you know, they had to take sides and that, you know, they didn't really feel common ground with each other and that they, you know, for nannies, they were constantly on the defense.
00:12:15.560And for moms and parents, they were constantly worried about, you know, was their nanny taking good care of their child when they weren't there?
00:12:23.260You know, there's the whole surveillance issue, which comes it really comes down to trust.
00:12:27.960And do you trust your your caregiver? Do you trust your nanny to take good care of your child?
00:12:33.840Because if you don't trust them, then everything kind of frays from that.
00:12:38.640But so it was interesting the way the first the first sort of kind of vector that I had into the story was I started to hear that moms were getting these reports from people saying, like, you know, I saw your nanny on the phone a lot, you know, where I was concerned about your nanny.
00:12:53.400And the advice they were getting in moms groups was you should hire a private investigator to follow them.
00:13:01.880And these moms groups are usually on social media.
00:13:05.040In fact, they're on Facebook, weirdly, which is something none of us actually use anymore except for things like mom groups.
00:13:11.240Yeah, and I'm in some that don't, that are off social media and they're completely moderated and it's a little bit of a different vibe.
00:13:18.320But still, I was seeing, you know, like on these listservs, you know, people giving this advice fairly regularly.
00:13:24.280And I was like, do people really do this?
00:13:27.400Why would you hire essentially a babysitter to go babysit your babysitter when you're already paying for child care?
00:13:34.780So you're paying double or, you know, not quite double, but you're paying more money on top of that.
00:13:41.280And why would you do that? Because if you clearly don't trust the person to begin with, then like it's probably not a good situation to be in.
00:13:48.840But what it came back to is because people actually don't want to fire their nannies, like especially they love their nannies.
00:13:54.520And it can be a really traumatic experience to get this feedback and saying, like, you know, it doesn't, but I trust this person, you know, or I think I trust this person.
00:14:02.820And I don't I don't know. I don't know who to believe.
00:14:05.740Like, should I, you know, this caregiver that's been doing a good job or people who are giving me this bad feedback?
00:14:11.700And rather than, you know, just fire the person outright, they want to be sure, you know, they want to be sure.
00:14:18.720And so it's this like weird dynamic, you know, sort of a catch 22 where it's like, you know, like clearly at that point where you have to hire a private investigator, the trust is already gone.
00:14:29.500But at the same time, you still trust that you're trying to preserve the trust in the relationship because it is such a traumatic thing to have to break with a caregiver that you really love.
00:17:28.080Yeah. So, you know, at that point, there's just so much animosity against, you know, the family, but it's actually, you know, taking a toll on the child itself.
00:17:39.320So it starts to become it's like, OK, you know, there's this one thing of like the moms versus nannies kind of uncomfortable dynamic.
00:17:48.540But that's when it sort of started to seem like a potential a little bit dangerous to me where the nanny, the new nanny was actually afraid of what, you know, these old nanny's friends might do to her or to the child.
00:18:01.020And so she felt, you know, like she was in a very precarious situation.
00:18:05.260And I think I would have felt the same way.
00:18:06.920Yeah, no, I mean, I definitely would have felt the same way. We are going to take a quick break here. When we get back, I want to dive more into this story and, you know, what exactly happens when you are pitting moms against nannies and when social media surveillance is in the picture.
00:18:29.100And we'll also get to the crazy ass thing that happened to my caregiver on the playground.
00:18:36.920I want to date with Rawls, Carty says.0.97
00:21:20.300Like, you know, for all the bad nanny posts, I was, you know, telling my editor, like, most nannies are really good.
00:21:27.040And this really, you know, there really are very few concerning incidents.
00:21:31.820You know, I think actually one of the moms groups I'm in, I talked to the moderator and she was saying she's really only, you know, seen two truly dangerous incidents.
00:21:41.320But she also made the point, if you witness something actually dangerous, don't post it on the moms group.
00:21:46.640Call the police, you know, like why would you?
00:21:50.300Exactly. Exactly. The moms group is not the place to be posting this. And a lot of times I wonder if the women who are posting this, and I think about this a lot with social media, you know, if you, like, what is your reason for posting this?
00:22:06.740Are you looking for attention? Do you feel your own shame and guilt about maybe not doing something outside of the home? And are you jealous of someone with a caregiver? And that's not always the case. But I do think it's interesting to think about the motivations.
00:22:26.440And I think about that because this did actually happen to me.
00:27:44.840because taking care of kids is such a vulnerable thing.
00:27:50.360So over and over and over I heard this.
00:27:52.880I mean, what you touch on is so important
00:27:54.820Because I think, you know, what people might think they're doing is that they're, you know, doing the mom a favor by reporting behavior by the caregiver that they would want to be aware of.
00:28:05.220But what they don't realize is that not only is it often an attack on the nanny, it's an attack on the parent, too, because the parents take this very personally.
00:28:13.360It's a critique of their judgment of, you know, how they send, how they dress their kids in the morning, how they choose their caregiver, how they manage their caregiver.
00:28:22.240So I think, you know, what people feel is that it's, you know, it's an internalization of, you know, like their caregiver's behavior also reflects their own parenting.
00:28:35.960And so it feels like a criticism of, you know, a judgment on the parents as well as the nanny.
00:28:44.120And, you know, it's such a hard situation to deal with because, as you mentioned, you know, who do you believe?
00:28:49.360Do you believe, you know, the other moms at the playground, you know, who maybe have children your same age or clearly were in the same place?
00:28:56.580Or do you believe the nanny that you've been working with?
00:29:00.500And it's, you know, and and I do think, you know, sometimes you've never it's interesting when you talk about the motivations of the person who reported it, because I've heard so many different things.
00:29:13.660And in some cases, it might just be a new mom who, you know, has a baby and who hasn't had the experience of parenting a toddler who, you know, takes their clothes off at the playground, who takes their shoes.
00:29:28.000Because, I mean, I was definitely, and I'm going to be really honest here too, I remember being a new mom in San Francisco and we didn't have a nanny in San Francisco because, you know, San Francisco is such an expensive place to live that, one, we couldn't afford full-time help.
00:29:47.840Nick and I were trading off caregiving, and we had some babysitters.
00:29:53.680But also, there's a severe shortage of caregivers because there's not affordable places to live close to San Francisco.
00:30:01.920I mean, it was—and I will tell you that daycare was six figures a year out there.
00:30:40.020There's not that many places it could get to.
00:30:42.820but you never know the motivations and once something is on social media you never know
00:30:49.140who's seeing it it's just it's out there and that sucks for everybody oh yeah what was it like
00:30:56.560reading the comment section because i think you know the some of the worst part is you know is
00:31:00.620just what happens in the comments when literally i mean there's mom saying you know fire her get a
00:31:05.400new nanny oh my gosh they're you know and then it's you know you read that as a mom and you're0.96
00:31:09.380like okay so if i want to keep my nanny like all these other women are gonna judge me exactly
00:31:15.000exactly and i you know sometimes it took a my my caregiver because we were very honest about it we1.00
00:31:20.880talked about this whole thing she did not want to go to the that playground for a for a long time
00:31:27.860because she she felt so judged and shamed i kind of felt the same way but then but then i put on0.98
00:31:33.720this attitude of fuck it you're not you're not driving me off my playground here i am and i'm0.95
00:31:40.340gonna ignore my own children but uh yeah but other moms did pile on because i also think then there's0.99
00:31:47.180like this group think and all all moms feel guilt and shame for something and you sometimes can feel0.94
00:31:55.880better if you're shitting on another mom and so some other moms were like why would this mom0.97
00:32:02.040tolerate this. She has to fire her right away. Or they had seen my kids and they're like,1.00
00:32:07.600yeah, those kids are always dirty and coughing on other kids. And I'm like, yeah, I know.
00:32:11.120I know they are. All kids are coughing on other kids. And my kids are particularly dirty
00:32:19.260because they like the playground. They go to the playground and they're like, oh my gosh,
00:32:26.020is that a mud puddle? I'm going to cover myself in this mud. That's how my kids play. They are
00:32:31.720they are ragtag dirty freaking happy children but yes dirty dirty shoeless and will will definitely1.00
00:32:41.520pull a snack out of your pocket yeah well i appreciated the you know the moderator that i0.99
00:32:47.300talked to who said you know she was like it was a few years ago but she was like you know we're
00:32:51.160just going to disable replies completely on any sort of you know quote unquote bad nanny post
00:32:55.740because inevitably it turns into you know whether it's it's bashing the mom who posted it or it's
00:33:01.700bashing the nannies. And it doesn't, even if it is, you know, moms bashing nannies, it doesn't
00:33:07.320make the moms who, you know, who have nannies feel good because what else are they going to do?0.67
00:33:13.600How are they going to work? You know, like you can't, it doesn't help to feel good. It doesn't
00:33:19.060help to feel bad about having a nanny when you need your nanny to work. And she was like, by the
00:33:26.180way, mom groups are support groups. We're supposed to be there to support moms. And I was like,
00:33:30.960Oh, yeah. Like, so, you know, sometimes I feel like that gets a little bit forgotten in, you know, some of this kind of, you know, vitriolic, like, debates about, you know, whether the nannies did, you know, something wrong or not.
00:33:45.040And, you know, we're bashing the, you know, calling the mom who reports the nanny racist. Like, you know, there is an element of that, but there is just, it's just toxic on both sides.
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00:35:15.780We are back, and you normally cover Wall Street and power. I want to talk a little bit about the power dynamic between moms and nannies and also nanny rights. Nannies don't have any rights, really, in this country.
00:35:33.660Like I said, most of them are being paid under the table, if we're all being honest about the caregiving economy.
00:35:42.060But you are seeing a lot more nannies who are standing up for themselves and for their rights.
00:35:50.900And what I think what a lot of nannies don't even know is actually they do have rights.
00:35:55.000Because it was about, I think it's now 14 years ago, the Domestic Workers Alliance had this bill passed called the Domestic Workers Bill of Rights that gives workers rights, whether or not they're undocumented, whether or not they're on the books or not, they do have rights.0.97
00:36:10.100However, you know, given the fact that a lot of them are immigrants to this country and, you know, may not have been educated here, may not have been here very long, they don't know that.0.87
00:36:19.700And I do think it's the norm, at least in New York, to pay off the books, under the table, in cash.1.00
00:36:25.560You know, people are literally paying, you know, going to the bank, getting, you know, cash each week to pay their nanny.
00:36:31.920There's no, you know, record. There's no taxes. There's no Social Security whatsoever.
00:36:36.940So in those situations, you know, they're, you know, it's sort of like up to, you know, up to the parents and the nanny to come to an agreement of, you know, am I going to give you a vacation?
00:36:48.600Are you going to have paid time off? You know, you're probably like most if you're paying off the books, you're probably not paying for the nanny's health insurance. They're probably on Medicaid.
00:36:57.580um so there you're sort of um it's not i was so fascinated by this because it's not your typical
00:37:05.060you know in office job where it's like okay you know um if you do if you do well you know the
00:37:11.640company does well and maybe you get a bonus or maybe your stock goes up um you know it's not
00:37:15.880like you have your own stock in this toddler that you're caring for in the family yeah exactly
00:37:20.840exactly yeah yeah there's not upward mobility you're not you know if if the kid um learns some
00:37:26.560new words or learns to read, you're not, you know, getting paid more. You know, and even a lot of
00:37:31.220nannies say like, you know, their hours, they're only supposed to work till six or seven. But if
00:37:35.260the parent gets home 15 minutes late, well, they don't think they can't leave until the parent
00:37:39.020gets home. And so they don't have full control over their hours. You know, a lot of parents do
00:37:44.120this thing where, you know, if the, oh, can you work late one night? Well, then you can go home
00:37:47.700early another night. Or, you know, we're going to swap your days off. You know, they might not
00:37:52.640even get holidays off. So nannies don't have, you know, they sort of feel like they're at the mercy
00:37:59.240of parents. It's at will employment, so they can be fired anytime. And there's always that fear
00:38:07.880that, you know, somebody else will say something or the parent will change their mind and, you know,
00:38:13.280one day they'll come to work and they'll be fired. Or, you know, one day, you know, the parent will
00:38:17.820just text them a lot of parents fire over text over phone call and you know the nannies say like
00:38:23.480and i never got to you know say goodbye to the kids um so you know there's the the nannies really1.00
00:38:30.120don't have a lot of power in these relationships um but and especially when they see in the mom's0.99
00:38:35.920groups that their picture can be posted without their permission and a stranger can accuse them
00:38:41.400of something without talking to them without knowing the whole situation um and you know
00:38:46.420often it's not true. Like I talked to a nanny who was accused of not paying a bus fare when she said
00:38:51.820like, look, I was with a stroller on the bus with the kid. Like I just couldn't make it to the front
00:38:56.620of the bus right away. And I told the driver that I'd pay on my way out and I did. Meanwhile, you
00:39:01.600know, a parent saw this and accused her of not paying the bus fare and she was fired. That is
00:39:06.220also completely, completely gonzo because I too, I'm just admitting all of the terrible things I do
00:39:11.240here i too have struggled with a stroller and promised to pay the bus fare but sometimes i
00:39:17.040forget sometimes i forget because there's kids biting totally at the time right but and so just
00:39:23.420imagine imagine being shamed and reported and losing your job for that yeah totally um and
00:39:31.980think about you know like even just to get a stroller on a bus with a child in it like i was
00:39:36.520trying to think of myself doing that like i wouldn't want to do that by myself sometimes
00:39:39.540they make you fold the stroller. So you have to like juggle the child in your hand while you like
00:39:43.220fold your stroller and lift it up. I mean, there's just a lot of this work that doesn't people just
00:39:48.020don't appreciate that nannies do all the time. And so it feels like just, you know, to have
00:39:55.760somebody accuse you of something that's a potentially not true or be like, you know,
00:39:59.940just post your picture on the Internet. Like it feels like a scarlet letter. Like this is, you
00:40:04.560know a Facebook it's a forum of potential future employers and now you're branded as a bad nanny
00:40:10.120forever yes like yes and that's and that's such an interesting way of looking at it because as you
00:40:17.840said there is no upward mobility for a nanny you're you're always going to be aged out of this
00:40:26.760job because when an aged out when the child ages out because when the child goes to school you're
00:40:31.960going to have to start your job all over again from scratch every single time and so your name
00:40:37.960and your reputation especially in smaller communities is your brand and so the second
00:40:43.640that someone posts your picture you're losing that ability to get your next job oh totally i mean
00:40:51.460the nannies basically they rely on references um that is you know their their currency they need
00:40:58.120good references moms you know especially if you're finding somebody through a mom's group as a lot of
00:41:02.560people do they don't go through the agencies um you know you need um you know a good reference
00:41:08.200from somebody else um and i i talked to moms who'd even fired their nannies who you know felt felt
00:41:13.580torn about that um and i think most in most cases when the nanny was fired they didn't ask for a
00:41:19.580reference but they really felt like oh gosh like you know i know she made a mistake i feel bad that
00:41:24.740it happen this way I don't want to ruin her life um but on the other hand like I don't want her
00:41:29.040watching my kid and so there was a lot of guilt that these moms felt um you know about the damage0.54
00:41:36.220to the nanny's career um and it's you know it's sort of like you know some nannies like hopefully
00:41:42.340they had a good reference from a prior family or something like that um or they you know had to
00:41:47.180change careers um you know and in some cases like you know it's possible if a caregiver really did
00:41:52.520something dangerous, like maybe they were in the wrong career. Maybe it is like the time to switch.
00:41:56.080But I think in a lot of cases, they really did want to keep, you know, caregiving and being a
00:42:01.440nanny. And it does make it hard for them to work in that industry. Yeah. And not I mean, not even
00:42:07.640hard, but but impossible. And, you know, when we talk about the switching of careers, that's not
00:42:13.280easy for anyone. I think about it all the time. I'm like, what will I do? What should I do next?
00:47:01.320And like, yeah, it sucks that also, you know, this relationship between parents and nannies is also breaking down, too, because I do think it's so important.
00:47:12.740You know, but I think it's such an it's such an important job.
00:47:15.340But also, I mean, not even really parents, but mothers and nannies, because it is so rarely the dad that is the one-on-one direct manager of a caregiver.
00:47:31.820We have a relatively equal marriage at this point, because I have cracked a fucking whip to make that happen.0.77
00:47:39.020Uh, but at the same time, he just like, he, he does, is, is unable, is unable to properly communicate with our caregiver who, like I said, at this point is, has been a member of our, our family, but he just like does not have the right language to figure out how to make this relationship work.0.94
00:48:29.000And I just, you know, think about even with daycare and like, you know, they're partly what we gave up with daycare is having, you know, like I would love some help at home, you know, to have a nanny here, you know, or somebody that could help a little bit.
00:48:41.580Like right now, the deal I made with my husband is he does all the dishes, although I recently found out he's just putting them all in the dishwasher, you know, whether or not.
00:48:51.420But anyway, you just have to let it go.
00:48:54.520yeah nick also does he does all the dishes and he also takes all the laundry downstairs and puts it
00:49:01.820in the washing machine and then i put it away which i also hate but he doesn't put it in the
00:49:05.820right place so yeah exactly so and that's the thing is even you know the management you're
00:49:11.580thinking about okay you know like is is you know like is my caregiver coming in late today or you
00:49:18.160know with daycare it's like did they tell me to bring in a special item today or do i need you
00:49:23.060know, to bring in extra seconds. It's all the thinking and like, oh, I need to get more diapers
00:49:27.400or, you know, all the thinking and the planning that I just find takes up so much space in my
00:49:32.600brain. But it doesn't take up space in my husband's brain. No, no, it does not. No,
00:49:37.200it does not. Women and men are built differently. And I'm not saying one is better than the other,1.00
00:49:40.720but women are better at multitasking, which is what parenthood requires. And I will go to my0.51
00:49:46.060grave saying that I will. I will indeed. That is why it's not that we have like a mothering
00:49:51.860gene or we're just like naturally mothers because I definitely wasn't I'm still figuring it out
00:49:57.620but we are just better at doing many things at once and holding more things in our brain
00:50:01.480even though it breaks us and and we cry in the dark yeah yeah yeah yeah and you've talked before
00:50:07.920too like I was just thinking about this too about like how people have you know fundamentally moms
00:50:14.640and and parents have fundamentally different philosophies and you know read things different
00:50:19.000And I think that's so true about caregivers as well, like and how you manage your caregiver.
00:50:26.580Like somebody told me somebody who has a nanny was was was I was having a conversation with her and we were talking to, I think, somebody who was pregnant or thinking about having kids.
00:50:35.760And they were like, well, why do you choose daycare versus a nanny?
00:50:38.900And the other parent was like, well, daycare is a lifestyle.
00:50:42.140You drop your child off and then you just have your day.
00:50:46.580Like I hadn't thought I would like that, but it is a lifestyle and having a nanny is a lifestyle.
00:50:51.440But I also think, you know, those those differences in philosophy and thinking come through when people are talking about their nannies or criticizing somebody else's nanny.
00:51:01.200And to go back over the story, the story was like, I loved the woman who was like, I am not a gentle parent.
00:51:05.760And the people who accused my nanny may have been gentle parents.
00:51:08.940And I do not agree with any sort of gentle parenting philosophy because I don't think it works.
00:51:13.760And I think, you know, children need more discipline than that.
00:51:16.580And I was like, yes, OK, like, you know, like this is an honest thing to say.
00:51:23.000And the judgment might come from a place that is not your place, you know, or not where you're coming from.
00:51:28.780And so I just think, you know, kind of these like there's like you just need to find what works for you, you know, and and, you know, treat like hopefully, you know, treat your character fairly and nicely and, you know, be a reasonable human person.
00:51:45.720in the world a reasonable human person in the world yeah i love what the woman said about
00:51:50.860gentle parenting because i too am not a gentle parent um any longer i i've tried everything out
00:51:57.800i've tried to in seven years okay you know who is unreasonable a two-year-old yeah a two-year-old
00:52:04.400they're completely irrational irrational beings and i'm not going ruby frankie on my kids over
00:52:09.500here but i'm also trying to instill some discipline and structure in this house otherwise it is going0.99
00:52:17.140to be chaos and i genuinely believe that then i will raise entitled assholes frankly who think0.94
00:52:22.260that everyone has to talk to them about their feelings all the time in the world and that's0.88
00:52:26.320not going to be the case it's just not yeah yeah yeah yeah sometimes i find you know i just have
00:52:32.060i just have to say no because it's you know like you know i've told you five times that we're not
00:52:37.840having lollipops for breakfast and that you know you can eat breakfast you have five other options
00:52:41.640but like it's a hard no sorry like it's a hard it's a hard no it's interesting that you bring
00:52:46.440that up because like I said in this Facebook post that shamed my caregiver she she had said that
00:52:54.400my my my caregiver had uh and I always I want to use her name but I I now don't use her name0.61
00:53:01.520mostly because I don't really want people to follow her on social media like weirdo pedophiles
00:53:06.040who could then follow her and follow my kids and these are the things that we have to think about
00:53:11.500um so i'm not trying to be all like you weird about it but i don't i genuinely don't want to
00:53:17.320just put her name out there it's not my business to but uh you know this person had said that she
00:53:22.960had hit my child and when we went through the incident um she was like no like i did push her0.99
00:53:31.040arm away because she was grabbing for my phone and wanted to watch YouTube. And we have to do
00:53:38.900those things, right? I'm constantly pushing my kids away from me when they're grabbing for the
00:53:43.460phone. Or this morning, all three of them piled on while I had a cup of hot coffee. But that can
00:53:49.400look like a shove if you don't know the child and you don't know the caregiver. I think at the end
00:53:54.900of the day, we have so many takeaways from this episode. But really, it's that you never know
00:53:59.120what is going on in someone's household you never know how someone parents and a superficial glance
00:54:04.900unless you see a child harmed harmed yeah um is that maybe maybe you should mind your own business
00:54:13.000especially when it comes to reporting on social media i think that is the takeaway because i mean
00:54:19.520yeah we're all on our phones like you know our phones you want to see you want to see someone
00:54:23.240on their phones check out a dad on a freaking playground or check out because you get breakfast0.87
00:54:27.300okay like yeah on conference calls yeah um i let my daughter go down slides that people might not
00:54:33.720let a three-year-old go down you know like um totally i can't stop them i mean they are i've
00:54:38.780got climbers i've got climbers and scramblers and yeah if i try to pull pull them off off that off
00:54:44.640that jungle gym they're just they're gonna hit me in the face yeah yeah it's happened to me so
00:54:50.500yeah right right like you never know you never know what kind of kid these people have we just
00:54:54.860don't know. And the shame and judgment has to stop, whether it's against mothers, whether it's
00:54:58.800against caregivers, because you know who never gets shamed? Dads. Yep. I cannot think of a
00:55:06.620situation. Never. Never. Yeah. There's no, my husband never feels guilt, never feels judgment.
00:55:15.340Not for anything. And so maybe the point of this episode is let's start to shame dads more.
00:55:20.320Yeah. I'd love to see it actually. Yeah. I'd like to see it. I'd like to, maybe I'll start,
00:55:23.700I'm going to start a hashtag dad shaming on social media and see what happens.
00:55:55.640I love, you know, ideas, whether it's about, you know, whether it's nanny stories or power or money or business or crypto or crime and scandal.