Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - The Exquisite Joy of Quitting Instagram with Marlee Grace

00:00:00.000 Hello. Hi, hi, hi, hi, hi. So if you're listening in real time, it is a holiday week. And I

00:00:15.500 am personally going to try to get off the computer and hang with family and friends and read

00:00:25.040 books and do all of those lovely things as much as possible. But I do want to do one podcast this

00:00:34.240 week. Who knows? I might do one more. I don't know. I don't know. Can't stop, won't stop. Can't stop,

00:00:39.180 won't stop. But I wanted to get this out there because I think it is such a beautiful thing to

00:00:44.260 listen to as we all try to unplug a little bit more for the holiday season. And this isn't yet

00:00:53.320 another episode where I whine about how I want to quit Instagram. This is an episode about someone

00:01:00.120 who has actually done it. Someone who can tell us what life is like on the other side of social

00:01:06.740 media. See, the writer Marlee Grace has actually quit the Instagrams, and they recently wrote a

00:01:14.920 great substack about doing that. After I read it, I immediately emailed Marlee and said,

00:01:21.140 tell me everything. See, one of the things that hit me the hardest about Marley's Choice

00:01:28.460 was their comparison of Instagram addiction to alcohol addiction. I felt this real deep,

00:01:36.840 real deep in my body and my soul. Because for me, the pull of the social medias

00:01:43.220 feels very similar to the pull of things like alcohol. And that's something that I don't think

00:01:50.900 we talk about enough. Marley has been very surprised about how quitting Instagram has made

00:01:57.280 them feel. It hasn't all been perfect. And your creativity doesn't necessarily come zooming back

00:02:05.500 to you in 24 hours. It's a process, just like everything else in life. But it's a process that

00:02:13.320 is fascinating to me. And I love this conversation. I love this episode. And I love what I think

00:02:20.880 it will inspire for a lot of us, which is we're probably not going to quit social media forever,

00:02:26.560 but maybe we could take a break just this week. And maybe, who knows, maybe that is something that

00:02:34.560 we could be very thankful for. See how I brought it back? Brought it back to the holiday? Yep,

00:02:42.620 yep. Without further ado, here is Marley Grace and what it feels like on the other side. 1.00

00:02:50.880 of Instagram. I'm Marlee Grace. I'm a writer and an artist. And I write a weekly newsletter called

00:02:59.880 Monday Monday that comes out on Substack. And I teach a lot of different online classes about

00:03:07.080 quilting and writing and sometimes dance. And yeah, I'm just happy, happy to be here today.

00:03:14.500 I'm happy happy that you're here I loved your essay on Substack about your relationship with

00:03:22.860 with social media and how you finally decided it's time for it to not be a thing in your life

00:03:30.320 that's a big thing for people to decide how did you finally say nope no more I'm quitting you

00:03:36.520 yeah you know I love you know one thing that's like I've been I've been sober for the last 12

00:03:44.340 years and I think a lot about how um like I loved alcohol like alcohol really worked for me for a

00:03:51.400 long time and it my relationship to Instagram feels sort of similar it's like I really loved

00:03:57.640 Instagram like I loved um it's it's lasted me the longest like I've I tried Twitter before

00:04:04.380 i quit facebook in like 2016 um so instagram you know i've been using since 2012 and god i just

00:04:14.840 loved it i love especially like i had a dance project there for many years called personal

00:04:19.320 practice where i would post dance videos and like it wasn't just a place for me to like promote

00:04:25.500 things it was really like a a place where I practiced my creativity and and um so I say

00:04:34.480 that just to frame it as like I've definitely been in some like some grief of maybe like losing that

00:04:40.520 space or that like canvas almost but really it was my um just complete addiction to

00:04:48.880 like the interface of the app and the way the app is designed to to hold our attention

00:04:55.720 that no matter how much like healing around like addiction and codependency

00:05:01.060 I did I just couldn't regulate it and so I really um I've been writing about this and thinking about

00:05:10.560 this for years and years and years and I kind of just like you hear this in recovery communities

00:05:16.860 but like I got sick and tired of being sick and tired. And I kind of just went to bed one night

00:05:22.660 and I was like, I think I have to leave in the morning. And I woke up the next morning and

00:05:27.220 and left. And left. And that's something I want to dig into a little bit deeper that for a lot of

00:05:35.560 us, this does feel like an addiction. Yeah. That it feels very similar to the relationships that

00:05:43.180 the toxic relationships that a lot of people have with alcohol and drugs and you've been in

00:05:49.300 recovery. How is how was it similar for you? Yeah, I mean, I think one part that's really

00:05:56.720 similar was like with drinking. You know, I remember going through these.

00:06:05.060 Like negotiating with myself, like, well, maybe if I just drink on the weekends or if I just drink

00:06:10.520 after five, or if I just do this, or if I just drink gin, or if I just drink locally brewed

00:06:15.660 beer, like I was like, if I make these rules, then I won't be an alcoholic, or then I can

00:06:22.000 drink normally, right?

00:06:23.680 And it's like, you hear that this phrase of like, it's the great obsession of every abnormal

00:06:29.000 drinker that they will be able to drink like a normal person.

00:06:32.180 And I really feel that with Instagram, it was like, I just I would give my I would have

00:06:38.160 my assistant change my password.

00:06:39.880 I would only log in on Tuesdays I would do this this and this and it was just like I just kept

00:06:47.180 breaking my own rules or like taking it back and so it was really similar in that way and in this

00:06:55.280 way of like it was just pulling me from like the deep work that I want to focus on which which for

00:07:05.200 me is sort of around my writing right now and yeah I just felt I could feel my brain like so

00:07:12.140 fragmented from the constant use and I think that's what it was more than anything was like

00:07:19.740 I felt this calling to like I also felt this calling this is a little different well it's

00:07:26.860 it's a little different than alcohol but with alcohol was a little bit like life or death

00:07:32.020 And with Instagram, it wasn't white life or death, but it was like I wanted to see, like, can I do art and business without this thing?

00:07:42.400 And can I show other people that it's possible, just like some other people had showed me that it was possible?

00:07:50.940 Yeah, I love that.

00:07:52.520 And the comparison hits so hard for me.

00:07:55.220 I mean, I think about my relationship with alcohol a lot.

00:07:58.540 Both of my parents were alcoholics, and so I'm incredibly careful when it comes to alcohol.

00:08:07.180 I drink socially.

00:08:08.600 I'm a big social drinker.

00:08:09.780 I don't drink alone.

00:08:10.500 I have all of these rules, right?

00:08:12.680 And yet, as I get older, I cannot handle a hangover.

00:08:19.040 I can't.

00:08:20.160 It's just, I mean, there's three kids under six in my house, and also I feel terrible.

00:08:26.820 I have awful hangover anxiety. There's so many reasons that I should quit drinking altogether.

00:08:32.700 And it's an ongoing conversation that I have with myself. And I'm also starting to feel that way

00:08:41.480 about social media, that I have almost what I would call a hangover, that I'm feeling less.

00:08:48.600 The positives are far outweighed by the negatives, that I get off of it and I just feel

00:08:54.680 bad that I feel this constant sense of comparison and failure and that I'm not living up. And so

00:09:02.560 the comparison to to drugs and alcohol just feels really apt for me.

00:09:09.480 Yeah, I mean, I think they like I love the words, you know, emotional hangover,

00:09:15.200 which we can get maybe after we like get in a fight with someone or we go towards anger or

00:09:20.360 resentment or, you know, sometimes I feel hungover if I eat a lot of ice cream. Like I feel like

00:09:28.060 physically hungover a little bit the next day. You know, it's like sugar and dehydration will

00:09:32.700 make you feel hungover. And definitely my use of social media has a hangover feeling and it

00:09:41.300 happens multiple times throughout the day. Like if you're picking up, I mean, it's like with alcohol,

00:09:47.320 Usually you just have the one hangover the next day. But it's like with Instagram, if you're picking it up over and over and over throughout the day, it's like, yeah, it's like a drunkenness and then you're hungover. And then the time. So it's not just the time that you're using and interfacing with the app. It is like you said, like with a hangover, it affects so much of our livability the next day.

00:10:12.040 and it's like with instagram it's like that hour to hour it's like i would be on it and then

00:10:17.100 suddenly be in that like emotional hangover space immediately after and what's similar to drinking

00:10:25.060 what's the best way to cure a hangover but to go back to the drug itself um so that way that's the

00:10:31.640 craziest part of the loop and again it's like i i try to really explain to people not to sound too

00:10:38.740 dramatic or conspiracy theory it's not a conspiracy but it's like the app is designed this

00:10:43.880 way it's designed so that we are addicted to the validation loop so that we hate ourselves it's

00:10:50.900 like here's 10 likes on your picture and you hate that and so you come back for more so that your

00:10:58.040 next post gets 100 likes and you're like yes this is what i wanted but then the next post gets 10

00:11:04.020 again and then we have to like keep playing with the algorithm and that creates that kind of drunk

00:11:12.860 hungover loop feeling yes and i look i do not think that is conspiracy theorist at all to say

00:11:19.980 that yeah that is just truth like we just know that as truth now and the more we talk about it

00:11:26.180 I think the more we can all kind of wake up from it that these apps are designed that they had a

00:11:35.480 lot of ancillary benefits they had like they brought us community in so many ways they've

00:11:41.780 helped a lot of people build businesses I promote all of my books on there I don't know I can't quit

00:11:48.480 anytime soon because I've got a book coming out in April I'm like Jesus I love this book I really

00:11:55.140 want people to buy it uh you know that's a veiled veiled you know moment of my begging for everyone

00:12:02.040 to pre-order this is an inheritance it's truly excellent but i love it so i can't i can't get off

00:12:08.240 and yet like despite these ancillary benefits it's designed to keep us on there it's designed

00:12:14.380 to make us put more content out there so that we get more of this vague affirmation just so it can

00:12:22.860 it can show us more ads so they can make more money that's it yeah like they're just it is

00:12:27.540 there's an advertising company that wants your attention and they're very very good at getting

00:12:34.120 that and that's just like that's just the way that we have to talk about it all of the time

00:12:40.960 i think um we don't we don't have a have a choice anymore so what were some you you made a list of

00:12:49.160 your fears of getting off of the platform and so many of them resonated with me it was just it was

00:12:57.460 a stab to the gut I'm like that's me that's me that's me that would be me if I weren't already

00:13:03.300 married and so tell tell our audience what those fears were what were your fears of leaving the

00:13:09.420 platform yeah what were my fears I mean I really relate a huge fear is I'll never get a book deal

00:13:14.960 again no one will want to give me a book advance if i refuse to use instagram um and but well and

00:13:23.260 before you go on to the next one i want to say that's valid yeah yeah yeah it's about because

00:13:28.060 yeah it's a real it's a real valid fear because you know i i write my own books i also work with

00:13:36.320 a lot of authors to help them get book deals and publishers want to know your social media numbers

00:13:42.040 they want to know your social media engagement they wanted and now and now they want instagram

00:13:47.440 tiktok substack no one really cares about twitter anymore but they they ask they want to know and

00:13:55.080 frankly i they give out bigger book deals they give out book deals at all if you have a social

00:14:00.920 platform i've seen incredible books rejected because the author has no social platform me too

00:14:06.660 I know. And so that, you know, that fear I'll speak to that was on, I think out of all of them. And I will say, you know, I do. I do have a digital platform still by having a newsletter. And so anyone who's listening, my number one advice for your whole life is to have an email list, whether it's on MailChimp or Flowdesk or Substack, I don't care, have an email list.

00:14:34.040 So that's my like, I will die on the hill of email lists.

00:14:38.580 It's why I was able, it's why I'm able to leave Instagram and I'll, and I'm happy to

00:14:42.920 talk more about that.

00:14:43.780 But I do feel like it was a fear, all my other fears, I'll quickly go over them.

00:14:50.540 It was like, I'll never find anyone to date.

00:14:53.060 I'll be alone forever.

00:14:54.720 I won't make any money.

00:14:57.620 And I knew that those fears were more like lies, right?

00:15:02.680 They were like lie fears.

00:15:04.040 it was like, I know I'm going to be able to make money. I will figure this out.

00:15:08.180 I will find someone to date again. Like, that's just how life works.

00:15:12.780 Yes, I will. And, you know, I, I, and it's funny because like,

00:15:18.500 I don't think I've ever found someone to date on Instagram. You know what I mean?

00:15:22.260 It's like, I don't know why, why they're linked, but I think it just, it's, it's again,

00:15:27.480 it's like this link of like aloneness and not being witnessed. And with the book thing,

00:15:34.040 I think I had to, there was more of like, I had to accept that rejection might happen and that I would be okay.

00:15:47.400 Like, I think I had to be like, you know what, actually, maybe my publisher won't think my substack reaches enough and will not give me a book deal at all or give me a much smaller advance.

00:16:01.400 or I'll have to go to like an indie publisher

00:16:04.300 or I'll self-publish my next book.

00:16:06.220 But the reality was I was like, you know what?

00:16:09.060 I've self-published books in the past.

00:16:11.400 Like a book will come out of me

00:16:13.360 and it will reach the people it needs to.

00:16:16.080 And it might not reach as many people.

00:16:19.480 And that's worth it to me

00:16:22.540 to not be on this platform anymore.

00:16:25.560 Like it just, it outweighed something.

00:16:28.540 Like the scale tipped finally

00:16:30.140 where i was just like that was one of the last reasons i was really hanging on and i just

00:16:36.280 was like no i have i have to go anyways yeah yeah i think a lot of it a lot of it is having

00:16:45.440 faith in ourselves that that instagram has taken away in a lot of ways because we see the numbers

00:16:53.240 we see the lakes. It's made us believe that it's the only way. And it's not. There's so

00:17:00.360 many other outlets and ways of reaching people. I've gotten very into old school guerrilla

00:17:06.540 marketing. I have printed out flyers for my book and I put them on bulletin boards at

00:17:12.520 grocery stores. I tape them to the back of bathroom stalls because there's no captive

00:17:17.720 audience like someone who's pooping well i i absolutely agree right and so like there are

00:17:24.900 other or i just talk i just talk about the things that i'm working on with other humans in the real

00:17:30.800 world there are other ways to connect and we've been fooled by these platforms into thinking

00:17:39.560 that there's not yeah yeah I agree

00:17:44.560 so what did you what was your process you're like all right I'm done

00:17:49.840 this is over for me did you just did you delete everything like how did you

00:17:55.040 I feel like people want a primer it's like it's like the morning routine for

00:17:58.580 the day you quit yeah um well let's see I decided I turned

00:18:04.680 the ability to comment off on every post um because I was I was just like I don't want

00:18:14.020 I don't want to like unregulated space so I was just like there's no ability to interact with me

00:18:22.480 there and I I made I made it so that my you know my link in my bio was you know the home page of

00:18:33.340 my website that has like all the links and things to where you can find me. And I put I had my bio

00:18:41.280 say like the name of my newsletter and the name of the two books I wrote. And I made a post that

00:18:46.820 said I'm logging off forever. I kind of like stayed on throughout the day and like read some

00:18:52.000 comments. And I did some last minute like DMs with a few people. I think I posted in my close

00:18:59.820 friends like because I do I did make so many connections there so in my close friends I made

00:19:07.240 like a little post with my phone number and was like text me like I'd love to keep in touch

00:19:12.000 and that was really nice I had a few people reach out and then I just logged off then I for about a

00:19:21.860 week I would like log in on my browser just to like kind of lurk and then I was like oh I can't

00:19:29.540 do that. And so then I actually had Hannah, my assistant, change my password so that I couldn't

00:19:34.820 I can't go into it at all now. So, yeah, I announced I turned off the comments,

00:19:41.020 sent my phone number to close friends list, made my bio feel like strong and like it led people.

00:19:49.300 It made people understand like who I am and what I do. I left the link there. So, you know,

00:19:54.880 I didn't deactivate which I've thought about doing that like I've thought about really but I I think

00:20:01.360 it was just like I'm gonna be honest that I think it makes sense still that people can like tag me

00:20:07.920 and tag Marley Grace and then people can go to the profile and click it so I wasn't fully willing to

00:20:16.420 completely disappear yeah um which I'm honest about but yeah I'm not um but yeah that was my

00:20:23.520 that was my leaving and then i just sort of um yeah just went about went about life and started

00:20:32.400 my brain cells have slowly been reforming we're gonna take a quick break here and then when we

00:20:39.340 get back i want to hear what it what it feels like on the other side of this

00:20:43.960 so we are back with marley grace we just talked about the day the day you quit

00:21:05.700 i feel like that which i should bring it all like we we could do this together again you could we

00:21:11.680 could we could publish anything we don't need a publisher yes no we don't book of essays of just

00:21:16.320 the where where people write their their daily routine of the day they quit social media i love

00:21:23.020 it you know my friend nicole antoinette quit just a couple weeks before me and she said something

00:21:29.540 like afterwards it felt like she had she like couldn't believe she was allowed to or something

00:21:36.920 Like, it was like she, like, laid on the floor and was like, did I just, like, commit a crime or something?

00:21:42.700 Like, it just felt so freeing and crazy to just leave and just be like, I'm done.

00:21:48.600 So, yeah, we should start collecting people's last day stories.

00:21:53.160 Just start collecting people's last day stories.

00:21:55.980 Yeah.

00:21:56.400 That one is very impactful, right?

00:21:59.740 Just that feeling of, I can't believe I got to walk away from this.

00:22:03.740 That's empowering is what that is.

00:22:06.000 so tell me about tell me about your how it felt how it felt on the other side how did how did

00:22:12.720 you feel those first few days and how do you feel now yeah you know it it's it feels so fresh it's

00:22:18.720 I actually recorded a new episode of my own podcast um yesterday and to sort of talk about

00:22:27.140 it and I felt the freshness of like so much is still like unwinding and unraveling like it's

00:22:34.920 still so new to be doing to be to be off Instagram so it's like my brain is still healing but and

00:22:49.340 and I actually I'm not here to say well there's okay I have two thoughts one is I have a strong

00:22:59.460 you know I'm I'm a really like opinionated left political person and I don't think and I think

00:23:09.120 that in some ways Instagram makes it harder for us to share because it feels so reactionary

00:23:16.320 and so one thing I noticed is my newsletter you know specifically what's going on in Gaza

00:23:23.260 right now, I've been able to really talk about it in a way that feels like really clear. Like

00:23:30.560 my values feel really clear. My opinions feel really clear. And I'm not like afraid of like

00:23:36.820 getting into fights with people. Like I'm, I'm really open to people having different opinions

00:23:42.600 than me and engaging in those. And so I'll say that like, one of the first things I noticed was

00:23:47.560 like my advocacy and like commitment to like healing and social justice feels better without

00:23:57.000 Instagram, which I think is interesting because I think we assume that like when we have a big

00:24:02.120 platform, we need to like be shouting about everything from the rooftops. And I think that

00:24:06.740 that actually like can sort of dilute the work at hand. So I'll say that's one thing I noticed is

00:24:13.480 like my newsletter I feel like got almost more radical and more political and that feels like

00:24:20.580 in alignment for me and then the second part is actually like I don't come bearing good news like

00:24:28.040 I think there's actually a lot of like pain in like losing that sort of like really consistent

00:24:38.820 validation. And I really see kind of like the hole that I was filling. You know, it's like in

00:24:44.440 recovery, we call it like the God sized hole where it's like you try to fill it with everything,

00:24:49.180 right? Like food, sex, drugs, Instagram, parties, people, sex. I already said that.

00:24:56.120 Shopping, you know, whatever it is. Oh, sex. Yes. Yes. Yes, exactly. And the only thing that 0.75

00:25:01.780 you can actually fill it with is like God or higher power spirit, you know, yourself. And so

00:25:07.520 I really feel like the part that I don't have language for yet because I'm still really in it

00:25:14.840 is like healing from that lack of like validation and that that part of the addiction is like

00:25:22.880 I do notice throughout the day like a loneliness especially I think being single and living in a

00:25:31.120 rural place it's like Instagram was really my like tether and connection to the outside world

00:25:37.340 and i'm still kind of like rebuilding how to do that without instagram so yeah

00:25:45.580 what do you think you'll do i mean what do you think that that will look like what are you what

00:25:52.540 do you want what do you want to try yeah thanks for asking i i think i think um definitely like

00:25:59.100 reading more and watching movies like i'm a big tv junkie and with there's no guilt around that

00:26:05.040 Like I love watching TV shows. I love reality TV. Like it's so my like how I numb out, how I chill, how I relax. I love The Bachelor, The Bachelorette, Bachelor in Paradise. But I've noticed like I'm watching more movies, which feels really good.

00:26:24.200 Like, I feel like that's something I'm noticing. It's like my attention can last for more than 40 minutes now. Right. It's like I can watch a movie. I'm knitting more. I'm sewing more. Like, I'm definitely just trying to fill it with like with reading, reading at night, pulling tarot cards like I am.

00:26:44.980 I think just filling it with sort of the activities that I was missing out on from just like

00:26:53.040 dicking around on my phone so I yeah I'm just noticing like my I think the the big win and

00:27:01.640 it's it's really slow but is that my like attention span is coming back to me in a way

00:27:10.140 that i've really really longed for and yeah i want to be like walking more and being outside more i

00:27:16.200 think that's like the other antidote to addiction in general it's just like nature so yeah yeah i

00:27:24.420 like the way you phrase it just the time lost dicking around on your phone yeah because so

00:27:31.080 much time is lost to phone dicking around it's insane yeah because i did you still my husband

00:27:38.720 and I are always saying oh we wish we had more time to like watch tv show or movies but we can't 0.98

00:27:44.620 because of these these damn kids and the kids I think it's time lost to dicking around on our 0.98

00:27:52.280 phones and I honestly because or people say to me as like again you know this as an author I hear 0.99

00:28:01.100 from a lot of people who are like oh I just don't have time to read books when you read books and

00:28:04.380 Like if you if someone took all of the time that they dicked around on their phone, they could read a book a week.

00:28:10.600 Absolutely.

00:28:13.060 And we're just adding up little, little minutes and the time there that feels so wasted.

00:28:20.720 One of the things that I do now, again, I'm not getting off anytime soon because right now I have I have to prevent this book.

00:28:28.080 have to and and yet i go on i post and i walk away i put it down it's actually on my to-do list and

00:28:39.340 again this is another of like the alcoholics favorite tricks i'm only gonna drink craft beer

00:28:43.300 right organic wine yeah or beer brewed with hops that come from 15 minutes of my house

00:28:48.900 yeah but for right now it is working it's better right it's a thing that is better for me i go on

00:28:56.680 i put on my to-do list i'm like you have to post something on instagram post something on tiktok

00:29:01.300 walk away and i'm doing that and it feels it already feels better it's like baby steps right

00:29:10.200 if you can't go to go cold turkey there's nothing wrong with a baby step it's it's it's fine to try

00:29:16.280 a baby step um have you how how is your creativity right now i feel like better now that you're

00:29:26.660 I feel like my writing is better than it has been in a long time for sure I feel like

00:29:35.720 yeah I feel like it's again I think this is where it's just like

00:29:42.280 it's slow it's like it's it's just everything's coming back online like real it's funny metaphor

00:29:50.860 thing to say but like everything's coming back like really slowly so I think if anyone's listening

00:29:57.100 and they're like I want to leave and instantly get my creativity back it doesn't quite work that way

00:30:01.380 it is like this really slow and that is where it reminds me of getting sober is like it was

00:30:08.180 really slow to like get my happiness and my life back like it was it was like trudging a little

00:30:16.360 bit at first and so but I do feel like um I think what is uh like a big part of my creativity that

00:30:26.240 feels better is like my ability to like research and retain knowledge and comprehend knowledge is

00:30:35.620 getting so much better quickly um because again it's like I'm not it's like and here's something

00:30:43.580 that's interesting too is like it's not just even the time we dick around on our phone it's like

00:30:51.180 what that does to the attention span I think that's what I'm suddenly like oh wow right because

00:30:57.920 it's not just the time on the phone it's what the time on the phone does to our brains when we're

00:31:04.760 off of the phone which is like not able to retain knowledge or comprehend things or read more than

00:31:12.640 a page at once right and so I think that's the thing is people are like I can't even read a book

00:31:17.820 it's not even about the time it's about what has happened to our brains and I think that's what I

00:31:23.640 feel really strongly about being off of it right now is like it has damaged my brain in a way that

00:31:32.300 like that's where I'm like I'm still sort of coming to terms with like how much healing has

00:31:37.780 to be done uh around it so yeah but i think um i have a lot of like project ideas right now and

00:31:47.440 that feels really good and i just started i host like a digital co-working space and we just started

00:31:51.760 a new season and you know i feel the like really good energy in the room of just like everybody

00:31:57.720 who's really excited about making their newsletters and writing books and and doing things so i feel

00:32:03.300 very like tethered also by just like my community in that way. And I'm excited to kind of see what

00:32:10.880 pours out of me. How I've been meaning to ask you since I subscribed to your sub stack and started

00:32:17.020 reading more about you. How does a digital co-working space work? Tell us more about that.

00:32:21.360 Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. It's, you know, it's really simple. It's pretty much like alone time together,

00:32:26.180 but we start the season with like a big visioning session. And so we sort of go through like,

00:32:32.160 what do you want to work on this season? What do you want to work on this week, this month?

00:32:37.100 And then how do you want to make like a menu for your day? So sort of menus are sort of you see

00:32:43.340 them in sort of like the ADHD or autistic neurodivergent community of like, how can you 0.74

00:32:48.480 make a menu for your day so you can sort of pick and choose as like your emotional or mental like 0.72

00:32:55.080 cycles sort of go through. So we meet for two hours on Zoom. We spend the first five minutes

00:33:01.760 making our menu for the two hours. And then we just work together and we pop in the chat what

00:33:08.060 we're going to work on. We unmute and say hi to each other. And then we just work and with the

00:33:12.780 Zoom room open. And it's a lot of like, we also do something called swallow the frog, which is

00:33:19.660 you do the thing you least want to do first so that everything else feels easier so it's a lot

00:33:25.780 of like calling insurance company calling the doctor setting up a recurring bill paying my phone

00:33:31.380 bill um calling somebody back like just sort of these different little tasks like avoidance tasks

00:33:38.480 and um yeah then we just co-work together and and that's pretty much it for we do that for

00:33:46.120 in two month seasons so i usually do it like three times a year that sounds so nice it's really nice

00:33:53.540 just really nice one people just like really supportive like it's a really just like beautiful

00:34:02.000 space of support like you know if somebody will put in the chat like halfway through like i'm

00:34:06.640 really struggling to get any words out on the paper and somebody else will be like here's a

00:34:10.320 trick that's helping me today or somebody else will be like i can't focus either and somebody

00:34:14.980 might like drop a playlist into the chat that's like here's what I'm listening to that's helping

00:34:18.760 me focus you know it's like people are just so like loving to each other it's really it's really

00:34:25.340 cool well I love that I also I am constantly reminding myself to swallow the frog which

00:34:32.020 reminds me that I did not call my insurance company about my physical therapy today so there

00:34:39.080 we go there's a frog to swallow there's a frog to swallow it's things I don't want to do that I

00:34:44.080 know what I do but I also think that's a lovely way of harnessing technology for community yeah

00:34:50.200 yeah oh you can you've given us so much to think about and so much to chew on and

00:34:57.680 so much aspiration for what things can look like on the other side of this yes good good I and I

00:35:06.380 will tell you I don't think that anyone really like real people actually find life partners on

00:35:13.860 the social media i met my husband in the galapagos on a boat where there was no internet oh my god

00:35:18.480 that's so cute i love that yeah it's like the last person i dated i found at a show at a greenhouse

00:35:26.360 the person i dated before that i ran into in the parking lot of the food co-op it's like you just

00:35:32.360 we find people we find people out there so yeah that's not even a real fear well i think it's

00:35:37.860 Actually, it's funny what it brings up is like like another thing I think I had to be willing to give up was like a feeling of like cultural relevance or even like community relevance.

00:35:50.440 Like there's something about like being active on social media and having like peers there or like almost it's like a feeling of like coworkers, like people who I follow who follow me or something is like we're in relationship to each other.

00:36:07.260 And so I think there's this feeling of like, am I relevant still if I'm not there? Like, do it's almost like this sounds dramatic, but it's like, do I exist? It's like, does the tree fall if we don't hear the tree fall in the forest?

00:36:21.980 It's like it's something like that where I think, you know, having like, you know, I won't lie that like having a following and being like an author and having this platform like makes me feel like maybe that what's interesting about me.

00:36:41.780 But then I even think about my last really think about any partnership I've ever been in.

00:36:46.900 Like they could care less.

00:36:49.560 You know what I mean?

00:36:50.180 like I think my partners have been inspired by my work but I don't think they're like I date Marley

00:36:56.040 because of their Instagram following if anything I think they it's the opposite they're like we

00:37:01.300 don't care about that at all um and so yeah I think that's where like yeah the separation of

00:37:07.580 or it's like how does like my person who I am is so connected to who I am there and I think that's

00:37:15.460 the other thing that I'm still like kind of like untangling still is like who am I without that

00:37:21.540 that like validation yeah yeah yeah I think the idea of relevance is something we could do a

00:37:29.960 whole other episode on yeah and totally and what it means why we care I had a conversation with a

00:37:37.960 friend the other day who just took she used to have a very kind of like cool public facing job

00:37:45.760 that was like yeah on the cutting edge of things and she she she felt like she was very relevant

00:37:51.480 because of that and now she has a corporate job that you know is not forward facing facing no one

00:37:57.280 really knows what she does during the day and she said she's like i don't feel relevant anymore and

00:38:01.200 that makes me feel bad yeah and just saying i and i replied i'm like i what i wonder is would i care

00:38:10.360 about my quote-unquote relevance if it weren't directly tied to how i could support my family

00:38:16.620 like if my relevant factor like if i if this book hits the new york times bestseller list i get

00:38:24.140 another book deal and or my subsac subscribers go up or you know people listen to my newsletter

00:38:30.860 My relevance feels so tied to how I pay my mortgage.

00:38:36.840 Would I care about that relevance if it were completely untethered from my financial well-being?

00:38:42.280 I don't know the answer to that.

00:38:44.120 I genuinely don't.

00:38:47.020 And what has Instagram made us believe about how it is making us relevant?

00:38:54.640 It's...

00:38:55.120 Yeah.

00:38:55.640 You're going to have to come back.

00:38:57.500 I'm going to have to have you back on the podcast.

00:38:59.280 I'm happy to come back.

00:39:00.060 Yeah, I'm just like staring out the window. Like I'm in like a new I'm like, yeah, I I think. I think that's that ties back into my fears of like the relevance and like that. Yeah. Can I? I think that's a great question. Can I pay? Can I pay my mortgage and be irrelevant at the same time?

00:39:20.560 No, technically, you know, that's the other thing is like I did jump like I do have it's

00:39:26.100 it's back to like I didn't jump from Instagram into nothingness.

00:39:29.280 It's like I have this this email newsletter list that I can still promote my work to and

00:39:36.200 still provide some relevance.

00:39:38.460 So, yeah, it's it.

00:39:40.060 I did some relevance hopping.

00:39:42.120 So, you know, it's not I didn't completely jump into the void, but I'm really with you

00:39:47.100 on that question and I'll be thinking about it.

00:39:49.680 yeah let's think about let's think about it then let's talk again and i because i want i also want

00:39:54.740 to hear more about this journey about where you are at two months out because like you said i don't

00:39:59.560 think any of this is instantaneous yeah it's not a juice cleanse which also is instantaneous it's

00:40:05.820 not a juice which is a lovely placebo yeah tell everyone where they can find you off the social

00:40:11.660 media platforms yeah so you can go to marleygrace.substack.com which is my newsletter

00:40:19.140 and it comes out for free every monday and paid subscribers get my advice column uh you can listen

00:40:26.860 to common shapes which is my podcast that comes out every wednesday the new season starts this

00:40:32.980 november and marleygrace.space is my website where you can find out more about classes i'm teaching

00:40:39.320 and buy my books and find all the links to all the things i love it thank you so much for coming

00:40:48.240 on. This was really wonderful. Thanks so much for having me, Joe. This was really, I got to think

00:40:52.340 about a lot of things in new ways, so I appreciate it. I loved everything about that conversation.

00:40:58.280 Exploring the ways that we can push back against all of the things robbing us of our attention

00:41:02.720 and our time, and in some ways, our humanity, is fascinating to me. And it is a conversation that

00:41:09.640 I want to keep going with all of you. As always, you can DM me on the very platform that I shit on 0.99

00:41:16.280 on a regular basis, at JoePiazzaAuthor. Or we can talk in real life. A listener walked up to me to 0.94

00:41:24.180 say hi this past weekend while I was at Jurassic World Live with the kids. That's a real thing,

00:41:29.820 by the way, Jurassic World Live. And Michael Crichton's estate is making so much fucking 0.96

00:41:35.400 money. They were selling water ices, Tyrannosaurus Rex water ices for $25. They were. I mean, 0.99

00:41:42.780 they've got it figured out. God bless them. God bless them. If you've got a dinosaur kid, I totally

00:41:47.020 recommend going to see Jurassic World live. We saw it in Allentown and someone walked up to me and

00:41:53.300 said, hey, are you Joe Piazza? And I said, yes, I am. And then we had a great chat about how the

00:41:58.800 patriarchy sucks. So come say hi if you see me out in the wild. I usually look feral and crazy 0.94

00:42:05.800 and I'm chasing a small human. Like I said, I'm going to try to hop off the socials and the

00:42:10.140 interwebs for most of this this week, and I really hope that you do too. Enjoy life.

00:42:16.260 You deserve it. You deserve all of the things. Smooches.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - November 20, 2023

The Exquisite Joy of Quitting Instagram with Marlee Grace

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