Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Where's the F＊cking Village？

00:00:00.660 I don't think I can be your friend, Isabella said.

00:00:04.060 Rebecca's stomach flipped.

00:00:06.340 This is the love story of real hinge couple Isabella and Rebecca,

00:00:09.900 written and read by me, Temi Denton-Hurst.

00:00:12.360 Listen to the free audiobook now.

00:00:22.960 There's a phrase that we throw around a lot.

00:00:26.300 It takes a village.

00:00:29.180 It takes a village to raise kids.

00:00:31.060 It takes a village to make a happy marriage.

00:00:33.100 It takes a village just to be a human being in the world.

00:00:38.240 And I hear from people all the time that they feel lost and lonely because they thought

00:00:43.540 their village was just going to appear.

00:00:45.840 They thought someone was going to hand them their village when they reached a certain

00:00:50.000 age or when they had their first baby or when they got married.

00:00:53.140 They thought all of a sudden people were going to come knocking on their door and say,

00:00:56.580 hey, hey, hey, I'm your village. I'm here. But it doesn't happen that way. If you want a village,

00:01:07.380 you have to go out and build it. You have to go out and find it. You have to put deposits

00:01:11.340 into the village on a regular basis. Today, I'm talking to one woman who decided that if the 0.52

00:01:18.240 village wasn't going to show up on her doorstep, she was going to go out and build it herself,

00:01:22.700 while also raising six kids, running a company, and oh yeah, delivering one of those babies in 0.77

00:01:29.160 the back of a car. Her name's Melissa Wirt, and she's the founder of Latch Mama, a small business

00:01:36.380 that makes breastfeeding-friendly clothes and also happens to be a unicorn of a workplace. 1.00

00:01:42.040 Melissa has created this workplace where babies are welcome. Yeah, babies, kids, kids get to be 1.00

00:01:47.300 in the office, where parental leave is real, and where motherhood is not something to be hidden

00:01:52.760 under your desk. Melissa also just wrote a book called I Was Told There'd Be a Village

00:01:58.360 about her own search for community. About her own search for community in a culture that is

00:02:04.140 hell-bent on keeping mothers isolated. It's honest, funny, infuriating, and hopeful all at the same

00:02:11.620 time. Just like parenting. And just like this conversation, Melissa is a goddamn delight and I

00:02:16.900 think you're going to love her as much as I do. In fact, after this convo, I kind of hope that she 0.93

00:02:21.260 wants to be a member of my village. So where the fuck is our village? The number one thing that 0.99

00:02:27.900 I've learned is that we have to go out and build it, which just sucks because we have to do

00:02:31.840 everything else too. You know, we have to raise our kids. We have to plan dinner every night of

00:02:37.760 the week because that doesn't seem to go away either. But then we also have to go out and build

00:02:41.440 village. So yeah, that's where it is. It is what we build, basically. It's what we built, right?

00:02:48.540 I mean, I've learned this. I've figured this out. And it's a lot of work. It does a lot of labor.

00:02:54.500 You can't just wait around for the village to show up for you because that is not going to happen.

00:02:59.960 Absolutely. And I think the more we wallow in the idea that it's not going to happen,

00:03:04.260 the more shame we kind of accumulate in like this motherhood journey. And shame is what keeps us

00:03:11.340 away from connection. And so the longer we put off building it, I think the harder it is to build

00:03:18.060 and put together. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. I want to hear a little bit about your personal

00:03:22.580 story because you were you were in in a place that on paper looks really great, right? Yeah,

00:03:28.460 absolutely. You had your own company. You moved to a freaking farm with your family. And as we

00:03:34.720 know from Instagram farms are like the penultimate goal that we should all aspire to.

00:03:41.840 Yeah. So I graduated college. I'm going to go backwards a little bit. I graduated college and

00:03:47.800 I went to one job interview. I landed a job in real estate and I was successful. I sold a bunch

00:03:54.320 of houses, made a bunch of money. It was a really great job for me because the harder the harder I

00:03:59.880 worked, the more success I had. Um, and that was kind of like how my life works. So I figured when

00:04:05.780 I became a mom, the same thing would happen. The harder I worked at it, the more successful I was

00:04:10.400 going to be as a mother. Um, but then my first child was born in the backseat of a car at 37

00:04:17.420 weeks. I want to say had no idea I was in labor until I was very much in labor. Um, and so he

00:04:24.560 came screaming out of me in the back of the car and the dead of night terrifying experience um

00:04:30.880 and then i am always curious about car babies yeah um so you know i i joke probably more

00:04:39.080 information than you guys need to know but like i battled ibs all through like high school

00:04:43.680 and like college and i learned what i could eat but honestly like the day that i was in labor with

00:04:49.680 him because I was probably in labor all day. I didn't feel sick. Like I felt like the pain was

00:04:56.320 never worse than anything that I had experienced, like growing up and stuff. And it was a beautiful

00:05:03.140 day. And my husband and I just walked miles and miles to the point where the dog got tired and

00:05:09.140 we dropped the dog back off of the house and we just kept walking. I was in complete denial. I

00:05:13.700 was in labor because most first pregnancies, you know, they tell you go to like 41 and five or

00:05:18.380 40 and five or something. So I was like, it's fine. I'm not in labor. I was going to have an

00:05:24.680 out of hospital birth with him. I was going to have him at a birth center that was kind of

00:05:28.280 attached to a hospital and called my midwife around dinnertime. And she said, why don't you

00:05:33.680 take a bath? You're not in active labor. You're still talking to me. And I took a bath and I

00:05:38.120 relaxed enough that my water broke and he was coming. I think if he hadn't been my first,

00:05:43.740 we would have just had him at home. But we got in the car and, you know, it was terrifying and

00:05:49.340 down the interstate. And he was born like right as we were pulling off right to the parking lot

00:05:53.780 of the hospital. So I know I know I know that's a diversion, but I just don't think you can bring

00:06:00.620 up car baby. And then. Yeah, no, I mean, it was really interesting because I went on to have five

00:06:06.800 at home after that. So I never ended up having one in a hospital. And for some reason, just the

00:06:12.000 way my body is built, and this is actually really funny, is I always said like if having babies was

00:06:18.040 like an Olympic sport, like I'd have a gold medal, which is so freaking ironic with the fact that I

00:06:22.820 have six babies. And this new theory is coming out that Trump wants to give people medals for

00:06:27.780 having babies. I just literally I die laughing because I'm like, of course, it's the last thing

00:06:32.820 I want. But I just always laughed at the fact that nobody's going to give me a medal for having a

00:06:36.440 baby, but it's relatively a very easy thing for my body to do. No one. I mean, look, you could get a

00:06:42.820 medal. What would you want instead of a medal? Oh, I don't know. Like I would, you know, it's

00:06:49.040 terrible because it's people and it's humans and it's having babies and it's not something that

00:06:53.600 we're, you know, supposed to be rewarded for doing or whatever. But like, it's really wild to find

00:06:58.020 something that you're really good at at life, that you're exceptional at at life. And really,

00:07:03.960 I mean, I have to raise them and I have to have them. And, you know, it just doesn't stop there.

00:07:08.100 But it's one of those few things that you just can't keep doing when you realize that you're

00:07:11.560 exceptional at it. You know, no, no. Are you done now? Oh, my gosh. I'm so done. The the book ends

00:07:19.200 with a conclusion story of a really terrifying seventh pregnancy that was like, no, absolutely

00:07:26.360 not. Our sixth baby. My husband said it was our it was our roller coaster baby, meaning that

00:07:33.360 everybody could have a partner on a roller coaster. Um, and on honestly, like bringing

00:07:40.300 our family together and watching these sibling relationships brings me more joy than anything

00:07:44.900 else in motherhood. So I'm very, very happy with our little brood. Um, and we live this feral

00:07:50.100 little life out on our farm where they're homeschooled and they just run around sometimes

00:07:55.020 with clothes, sometimes without shoes, no shoes, whatever. And they just get to, you know, be kids

00:08:00.860 and, you know, live life. And so, yeah, six is six is more than enough most days, but they're

00:08:07.240 lovely. OK, so tell me. So then tell me how we got to the point where you are looking for a

00:08:11.780 community. Yes. So I moved out to the farm. I thought that that was going to answer all my

00:08:16.260 questions, all my issues. So we moved to a bigger house. I had more space. Things were great. And

00:08:21.920 then I realized I had moved away from something that really brought me joy. I lived in this

00:08:26.360 beautiful planned community before the farm had neighbors on each side that I don't want to say

00:08:33.540 annoyed me, but we were the fun house. We were the house where all the kids came to play. And

00:08:37.580 it just felt like a lot all the time. Then I moved out to the farm and I realized I didn't

00:08:41.580 have anybody, but I didn't have a lot of support. You know, it was like kind of one of those like

00:08:45.980 last boxes to check. Like I knew I wasn't like clinically depressed, would have been fine if I

00:08:51.060 was. But I just didn't understand where the thriving part of life came from. And I think

00:08:57.400 some of that is being a mother in America. And I think some of that was just literally that I

00:09:03.200 didn't have anybody who truly saw me. So I ended up miscarrying at the farm. We had five kids when

00:09:11.660 we moved out there. I ended up having a miscarriage. And my husband watched the other kids

00:09:18.180 while I took some side attack to clear out the rest of it. And I remember just feeling

00:09:24.880 completely alone. And I was really overwhelmed with the idea of having another baby. And my

00:09:30.760 husband really wanted one and I couldn't really juggle it. I couldn't figure out what was going

00:09:34.740 on. So I started therapy for the first time in my life. And I remember within like one session,

00:09:41.840 my therapist was like, you seem very lonely. And like, I had never heard that nobody had ever I

00:09:47.640 I mean, I was an introverted extrovert, extroverted introvert, something.

00:09:51.240 But nobody had ever, ever told me that I was lonely.

00:09:53.740 I was surrounded by this amazing company every day, hundreds of thousands of moms on the

00:09:58.880 internet.

00:09:59.540 But she was sitting here telling me I was lonely.

00:10:01.920 And it took me a while.

00:10:03.020 But then I started really digging into maybe I was and maybe I didn't have those supportive

00:10:07.800 relationships that we all need in life.

00:10:09.980 So what so then what did you end up doing about it?

00:10:12.600 Yeah. So I decided to write a book, which was, you know, a side which was a side story. But the cool, really cool thing about the book is that the book wasn't necessarily I know you've written some, so, you know, they don't always end where they start.

00:10:28.720 So the book wasn't originally it was really supposed to be about supporting women in the

00:10:32.420 workplace and how we could do a better job. And, you know, it as I was starting to build my village

00:10:39.000 and I was starting to figure out what was broken and why this was so hard, the book started taking

00:10:44.360 shape as well. And it kind of went on my journey of how to find ourselves and how to find our

00:10:50.760 community and motherhood. And just like we kind of started, it was very hard and it took a lot

00:10:59.320 more effort. Like I always thought that it would come find me and villages don't find you. They're

00:11:06.180 built. And yes. So talk to me about building this village. Like what did you learn? Because I hear

00:11:12.500 this from women all the time. I hear from women that they are lonely. I hear from them that they 0.96

00:11:16.800 were told there would be a village and also cake and yep and I my advice I don't think is very

00:11:23.680 helpful for a lot of people because I moved home to Philadelphia to the neighborhood where all my

00:11:29.420 friends live I was just like fuck it I'm gonna move to my village so when people find out how

00:11:35.540 much I love Philadelphia they're like should I move there and I'm like no no this is I mean 0.98

00:11:40.020 yes because it's the greatest city on the planet but this worked for me because I literally moved

00:11:44.320 the neighborhood with girlfriends from college who have kids the same age as I do. So beautiful.

00:11:49.260 I love that. Oh, you know, it's interesting because I don't think many of us understand

00:11:56.920 the science behind connection. And it's really weird to talk about this thing that's really

00:12:01.380 kind of touchy feely, but also the science behind it. So like human beings need connection,

00:12:06.060 like we need food and water and shelter. And so when we don't have connection,

00:12:11.360 we get overwhelmed, we get tired, we get hungry some in some ways for this connection and these

00:12:18.640 these hormones that actually get activated when we when we have friends. So, you know,

00:12:24.460 what we talk about a lot in the book and what I've discovered is that connections like growing

00:12:29.960 a muscle and you can kind of ease into it, but you start to get more energy through a small

00:12:39.520 connection. And I think that that's sometimes what we overlook. We think we have to jump into

00:12:45.260 these like circles where we all talk about our greatest feelings and failures as moms.

00:12:51.740 But it's very, very hard to start there. That would be like starting like going from, you know,

00:12:56.540 sitting on your couch to running a marathon. So we really talk about and what kind of research says

00:13:02.900 is that really starting small. And when I mean small, like going into the coffee shop to get

00:13:09.280 your coffee or going to the grocery store or asking a friend for a recommendation as

00:13:14.600 opposed to Googling it.

00:13:16.160 Little things like that start to build your kind of your connection muscle, and it actually

00:13:20.740 gives you energy and starts activating all those parts of us that we really need to lean

00:13:27.420 into to build the deeper relationships.

00:13:30.580 You interviewed so many women. 0.99

00:13:33.580 What were some of the stories that you heard from them about how they built connection? 0.98

00:13:38.660 Yeah.

00:13:38.900 You know, I think that the beautiful thing is that in almost everybody I talked to, it

00:13:44.780 always started with how they had to figure out who they were again after they became

00:13:48.460 a mom.

00:13:49.040 And I think that that's a really important step is like, I don't think that we can all

00:13:53.100 just go out there and start building friendships without really kind of doing some work on

00:13:58.440 ourselves.

00:13:59.480 I think the first step is realizing that we're lonely.

00:14:02.180 The second step is really trying to figure out like what we need from a village and what

00:14:06.220 we need from friendship. But some of the stories, I mean, they were remarkable. There were a lot of

00:14:11.700 stories about women who transitioned home from the workplace, especially during COVID, and didn't

00:14:17.380 realize how much their co-workers meant to them. And it wasn't maybe necessarily their co-workers.

00:14:22.020 It was literally just talking to other human beings and how quickly they started to spiral

00:14:27.880 into this depressive state. Um, it's really beautiful. I think how women, when given the

00:14:35.660 opportunity can show up for each other so beautifully. And I think that there's a whole

00:14:40.240 nother book or conversation or something and why we don't do it more. Um, and I think the fact that

00:14:47.780 most of us, by the time we reach motherhood have been burned by females in some way or mean girl 0.99

00:14:53.940 or something like that, it's a really, it's another element of this puzzle that we have 0.94

00:14:59.140 to kind of work through to try to find our people. Okay, we are going to take a quick break. And when

00:15:03.960 we get back, I want to hear what you actually had to do to build your community.

00:15:12.440 You want to impress them on a first date, but also play it cool. So what do you do?

00:15:19.080 I'm Rufy Thorpe, and I wrote and read a real love story about a hinged couple that navigated

00:15:23.800 exactly that listen to the free audiobook now okay we are back all right what kind of what

00:15:32.980 kind of labor what kind of extra just additional labor on top of mothering many many children did

00:15:38.300 you have to do to build your community yeah so the first thing that was that was actually larger

00:15:44.800 than i felt like it was going to be is like i had to actually advocate for myself and i had to find

00:15:49.520 the time, which was a hard one. You know, things that the way the way that our lifestyle kind of

00:15:57.180 worked, how to how to change a bit. And I had to actually tell my husband that I needed to figure

00:16:04.060 this out and I needed to find time to connect with other people other than him. And I think

00:16:10.040 that that was a big deal. I think even just saying out loud that I had needs that weren't being met

00:16:16.700 by being a mother or by being a wife

00:16:19.740 was a really giant first step for me.

00:16:22.680 Because I think I had somehow gotten

00:16:24.760 to this really somewhat unhealthy place

00:16:26.800 that that was all I really needed

00:16:28.720 were, you know, my beautiful children

00:16:30.900 and I should just be grateful for them

00:16:32.480 and my husband that came home every night.

00:16:34.420 So the first step is that I had to just basically

00:16:36.140 say it out loud.

00:16:36.980 Like, hey, I need time.

00:16:38.300 We need to figure this out.

00:16:39.360 You need to start doing dinner on your own

00:16:40.820 every once in a while.

00:16:41.700 Like, I really need to build friendship.

00:16:44.460 And then the second thing I did is that

00:16:46.700 I joined something, which sounds like such a silly thing. And the idea that we have like

00:16:51.800 an almost an entire chapter in the book about it, but it's such a beautiful way to find community

00:16:57.080 and village. Personally, I joined a swim team, which seemed very extreme, but two years later

00:17:03.020 has completely changed my life. Um, but I really put myself in a situation where I was out of my

00:17:09.500 comfort zone. But I had to navigate it and I had to be there. And then I started kind of creating

00:17:18.060 these relationships in there that they depended on me and I depended on them to show up. And I felt

00:17:25.600 better and I looked better. And all of these things started kind of coming together. And it

00:17:31.460 gave me more confidence to lean into other relationships and other places I could build

00:17:34.940 village. So I'm a huge advocate for joining something. So how did you find a grown up lady

00:17:40.640 swim team? Yeah, it's wild. So my kids were on a swim team. I swam like competitively on like a 0.99

00:17:48.780 summer team through like my childhood. OK, so you were also a good swimmer going. No, I swam on like

00:17:54.740 summer league. So like, do they have that in Philadelphia? I don't know. It's like, you know,

00:17:58.960 one night a week during the summer. It's like in suburban America. It is like literally the

00:18:04.940 happiest little place in the world. It's like what I remember being such a happy, wonderful

00:18:09.820 part of my childhood. But I hate running. I played field hockey in college. I probably could have

00:18:17.880 like played soccer or something, but that seemed intimidating. I really liked the idea that swimming

00:18:23.220 was like kind of a group activity, but kind of like really personal to she can't talk when you're

00:18:29.760 in the water. So the team that my kids were on started an adult team. And I showed up and it

00:18:35.920 was just kind of perfect. It's coached by this kind of love him, but he's like this dirty little 0.98

00:18:41.300 28 year old guy who like swam D1, swam at like Tech and Ohio State. And he's phenomenal, but he's

00:18:48.560 like perfect for all of us little old people um it's just really great um it's so funny but yeah

00:18:54.940 no i just i looked around and i found something and and i went for it i really love that for you

00:19:02.600 i i i don't i actually i was joking with my friend emily who i went to visit in dc the other day

00:19:10.400 and i told her i was like you're very lucky that you slipped in because i'm actually at my maximum

00:19:15.960 for friends right now. How many do you have? What is that? I don't know the number. I just

00:19:22.880 know that I don't see the ones that I have that are literally a block away from me as much as I

00:19:30.520 should. And so I just don't think that I have time to nurture a new one. And so I don't have

00:19:37.660 the bandwidth for a team, but I love that in theory. I love, love, love the idea of it.

00:19:43.140 I mean, we we talk about in the book in the sense that, like, it doesn't need a lot of maintenance.

00:19:47.640 You just wake up before the kids wake up.

00:19:49.660 I go and I swim an hour.

00:19:50.980 Sometimes we text every once in a while during the day.

00:19:53.320 We do a happy hour, maybe like every two months.

00:19:56.740 I mean, we're there like there's a guy on the team whose son has leukemia.

00:20:01.160 So we're all going to go walk in the in the fundraising walk this weekend.

00:20:05.140 Like we show up for each other.

00:20:08.160 But it's a really kind of like low ask.

00:20:11.120 so it's it's nice it definitely does not take as much like emotional bandwidth as you know some of

00:20:18.680 my other friendships do but yeah I'm a I'm a huge advocate for like two to three close friends and

00:20:25.520 then like a bunch of kind of like acquaintances like can drive your kid home from soccer practice

00:20:30.760 maybe get together you know every few months type of friendships yeah no I love that I love that I

00:20:36.800 think i'm probably at like 10 close friends at this point i know i know i mean i love and i love

00:20:41.820 them i love them are you all friends with each other or no no yes harder to no there's like

00:20:49.240 four different groups okay yeah do you have like a 3 a.m friend do you have like somebody who you

00:20:55.620 know you could call if life started yes yes i do and we discovered that we discovered that when

00:21:02.480 I thought I was having a heart attack about four months ago when really it was just heart

00:21:08.520 palpitations from the flu and ammonia. And yeah, we called someone up who came over and watched

00:21:14.580 our kids so I didn't have to go to the ER alone. That's incredible. I always say that it's like

00:21:19.260 game changing. Like that is like top tier villaging, but it is like the type of villaging

00:21:24.100 that like literally makes every moment of every day better just knowing that you have somebody

00:21:31.320 in your life um that was yes yes unrelentless i mean it's it's 24 of 7 um and what happens if

00:21:40.180 the balls start to drop you know yeah no exactly and we were never meant to do this alone i mean

00:21:44.980 we talk about this on the podcast all the time too right and you dig into this in the book 0.66

00:21:48.820 it is a very recent phenomenon that women were doing this by themselves and not literally in

00:21:56.040 a physical village where other people were helping them with their children. But it's so interesting

00:22:02.140 because I think when you talk to, it's normally males about it, they're like, well, people are

00:22:06.760 living further apart than they used to live apart. Like they used to live from each other. And I'm

00:22:10.740 like, holy hell, I was so alone and I had a house like 20 feet away from me. I mean, you live in a

00:22:15.540 city like I'm sure there are plenty of people who are living in close proximity to others who are

00:22:21.460 still lost in like modern day motherhood in america and totally i think the way that we

00:22:27.000 can measure it is we could open our wi-fi right now and see how many wi-fi networks we could we

00:22:31.560 could we could link to it's just wild and i think what's really sad about it and where i find like

00:22:39.900 optimism and writing a book about such a to me like easy solution because i think there's so

00:22:46.780 many greater things that need to happen is that it it happens so early. I mean, I think we're

00:22:52.800 probably taught this certain level of independence as women in this country. But I think that it

00:22:57.900 like starts from like our prenatal appointments, like it starts from starting our voice kind of

00:23:03.680 being taken away from us in the like maternal health process. So many of us, you know, get

00:23:09.880 through childbirth, those of us who live through it in America, you know, you get onto the other

00:23:15.480 side of it and you're like, what just happened with nowhere to process it? And then we sit in

00:23:21.300 our houses or we go back to work or we do whatever. And we just have all of this shame that builds up

00:23:26.620 that prevents us from wanting to connect with other people. I spoke yesterday to this amazing

00:23:33.880 group of moms about the book and I had them do this exercise where they had to go like kind of

00:23:38.640 change tables and sit with people they'd never talked to before. And I asked them to talk about

00:23:45.120 all of the ways they shouldn't be friends, like all of the barriers that they think make them

00:23:49.540 weird, that make them like unworthy of love and connection. And what was really wild is there

00:23:54.060 were so many women in there who had preschoolers and older kids. But the first thing that all of 1.00

00:24:00.560 them leaned on was something from really early motherhood. It's like this shame that we still

00:24:06.120 hold on to, whether it be sleeping or the way we fed our child or the way our child came into the

00:24:12.440 world that we just hang on to because there's no place to talk about it. And it just sits there

00:24:18.940 and it prevents us from connecting and getting the support we need. That's so interesting. And

00:24:25.300 that's such a good question for people to ask themselves too, because I also think that it's

00:24:30.660 something we don't normally say out loud ever. And that's why it just eats up at us, right?

00:24:36.240 yeah yeah and it just plays into that on like those feelings of unworthiness and what's wild

00:24:42.760 is that just like food and water we all deserve connection and I can probably come up with you

00:24:50.000 know 20 different things and 20 different reasons why I am unworthy of connection or whatever and

00:24:57.540 you could too and I would look at you and I'd be like those are so silly like you know like I I see 0.93

00:25:03.080 that and I raise you 20. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just wild. But I feel like we're going 0.97

00:25:08.320 through life with so much information on our fingertips that we think that there's like a

00:25:13.500 right way and a wrong way to parent. And until we can kind of wrap our heads around the idea that

00:25:19.120 there isn't and that we're all doing the best that we can, I think it makes connection really

00:25:26.100 difficult yeah no it it really it makes it nearly impossible i think um because i like i said i feel

00:25:33.680 good about where i'm at now but yeah how old are you with seven five and two yeah but my newborn

00:25:43.280 years with the first one were so fucking hard because i lived in san francisco and i had no

00:25:48.080 friends and i had to build my village i've told this story before i just walked down the street 0.52

00:25:54.040 in in nopa and if i saw someone with a baby or a pregnant belly i was like do you like beer and

00:26:00.080 sausage i love that love it did you make any friends that way i made all of my friends that

00:26:07.080 way uh because i was i was like on fridays we have a fire pit in our backyard and there's gonna be

00:26:11.660 beer and sausage oh my god i love that so much i know i know and it totally worked for me and then

00:26:20.400 another woman saw me pregnant my friend Shannon we were at this dive bar that also happened to

00:26:26.660 serve Ethiopian food on Divisadero Street it's the best Ethiopian food you'll ever have in your

00:26:32.260 entire life it's called Club Wazima and she just like flipped a piece of paper to me like we were

00:26:38.520 in a drug deal and she's like we've got a group for moms oh how beautiful is that that is I know

00:26:47.340 well i know yeah but you know when i had first moved there and during my early pregnancy and

00:26:53.100 even during like the early days of newborn i didn't have anyone and making friends was so

00:26:58.520 hard out there because at the time it was eight years ago and everyone was trying to be a mom

00:27:04.840 influencer and their floppy hats and their flowery ass dresses absolutely and i didn't fit

00:27:11.060 into their perfect, well-curated vision of what mom life was like.

00:27:16.460 How long do you guys actually do?

00:27:18.080 Like, that's...

00:27:18.860 Well, now I do.

00:27:19.720 Yeah, I mean, I do.

00:27:20.620 I do.

00:27:22.180 And, but yeah, so I had a hard time.

00:27:24.500 And then, you know, Shannon slipped me that note in the club with Zima, and I invited

00:27:29.200 people over for beer and sausage.

00:27:30.360 And a few were like, oh, my God, I don't eat sausage, and I don't drink beer.

00:27:33.820 I was like, well, then we're not going to be friends anyway, okay?

00:27:37.060 We just weeded you out.

00:27:38.500 Um, okay, but I'm going to, I'm going to double down on that comment because I think the other

00:27:43.420 issue that does happen is that we think that our village has to be, and I think that the

00:27:52.000 close people who are coming over for beer and sausage are so needed and so important,

00:27:55.820 but I think that we also need to remember that our, the people who, who are actually in our

00:28:03.520 village do not also need to be our back friend, our backyard beer and sausage people, because we

00:28:08.860 need the other people to we need like the drive the child home from practice people or we need

00:28:18.000 the oh, my God, I'm sick. Can you drop off dinner people? You know, like like the exterior village

00:28:25.440 people. And for me, I felt like when I first became a mom, I was so convinced that I was

00:28:31.640 getting it all right. And I was so convinced that that was the only way to be a mother that I wasn't

00:28:37.480 going to have anybody anywhere near me that made me question what I was doing, because that's

00:28:42.120 essentially what we do. Like when we judge others, we're like, we're so exhausted that we don't want

00:28:47.640 anybody near us that are that's doing things differently, because that makes us figure out,

00:28:53.000 like ask ourselves if we're doing it right. So at least that was the way that it was for me.

00:28:57.860 So, like, I mean, if you were feeding your kids like goldfish on the parking, like at the park instead of Annie's cheddar bunnies, I would have been like, yeah, no, like you're not for me.

00:29:08.700 And it's terrible to say, but I'm 13 years in and we all grow and we all change.

00:29:13.880 We all grow. We all we all move to those regular goldfish at some point.

00:29:17.340 Thousand percent. And now I don't care at all what my children eat because there's so many of them probably.

00:29:23.660 But no, no, could you just stop caring after a while?

00:29:27.860 Yeah. There are so many other important things to care about. I mean, I literally woke up one

00:29:33.260 day and I was like, I with all of that is happening everywhere in this world. I just

00:29:38.060 want to put kind, good, hopefully confident human beings into the world. And I don't care

00:29:43.400 if that means that you eat a bowl of cereal for dinner. I mean, yes, I still make dinner and we

00:29:47.020 sit around the table, but like I I'm going to pick my battles. And my number one thing is that

00:29:53.600 you're going to be a kind human being, you know? Yeah. Like, what else are we doing?

00:29:59.900 You know, what else are we doing right now? Yeah. No, exactly. Are you going to be kind? Are you

00:30:03.500 going to be happy and confident? And yeah, yeah. That's what I that's what I that is. That is also

00:30:11.000 what I am striving for. Like and it's so wild because I would lose my mind if I worried about

00:30:16.580 all the other stuff, too. And of course, I look at like the junk they put in their bodies and I

00:30:20.940 And I wonder if it's going to, you know, we do all of that.

00:30:23.960 But like what where the energy goes, I feel like at this point needs to be like or in

00:30:30.440 our family is just good, kind human beings.

00:30:33.400 And I think that our kids tend to teach us as they get older.

00:30:37.020 So like my 13 year old is has some reading struggles, dyslexia.

00:30:44.380 And, you know, I learned with him that like he was going to learn to read, but it was

00:30:50.180 not going to be in the conventional timeline that kids learn to read in the U.S. And so then I

00:30:56.260 started like researching what the rest of the world does. And there are many countries that

00:30:59.800 they don't even like introduce reading until like eight or nine, especially with boys.

00:31:03.400 Oh, really? Yeah. No, it's wild. It is wild what has been learned and studied. And in some of like

00:31:11.020 the less intense cultures, they just let kids grow. Imagine that. And don't put really high

00:31:19.580 crazy standards in front of them and let them be them. And it was the best decision I've ever made

00:31:25.680 with my son. He's now up to reading level. He's not ever going to love to read probably, which

00:31:30.820 just kills me inside a bit. You might. But navigating it that way created so much less

00:31:38.840 anxiety in him and the entire family. Like, I'll never forget the day that I just flipped a switch

00:31:44.040 and I was like, you know what? I'm going to love you for who you are. And I'm not going to look at

00:31:47.920 these test scores I'm not going to look at when you're supposed to be able to read and we're just

00:31:51.560 going to do this differently it changed our entire family so now I just kind of look at that with all

00:31:56.940 of them and I'm like you know what just be a good kid you know we're going to get there when we get

00:32:01.140 there and it has also changed how I look at other families and other moms and who can be part of my

00:32:08.040 village and who can't be you know how so like I'm much more apt to to bring somebody into my life

00:32:15.520 that is completely different than me in every other way, as long as their integrity is high

00:32:21.060 and their kind, you know, like I won't, I mean, I mean, I probably give examples, but it's just

00:32:27.540 like my, my level of judgment in some ways has gotten much higher, but in some ways has dropped

00:32:35.100 so much lower. Like the stuff that used to matter to me, some of the material stuff doesn't matter

00:32:40.240 at all. And now I just kind of do a vibe check of how I feel when I'm with the other human

00:32:45.720 and like how my kids are with them. Like, I don't know. It's just weird.

00:32:50.820 No, it's not weird because the vibe check is always it for me. And I think I trust my gut

00:32:56.640 a lot more than I used to. I mean, I no longer have the beer and sausage test, but it's like,

00:33:01.080 do I feel like my cup is full when I leave this person or do I feel drained? And I've gotten rid

00:33:05.580 of all of the drain people. Yeah. But it's so wild. Like, don't you wish you could tell somebody 0.89

00:33:11.000 like in the trenches of the newborn days or like whatever to like to listen to their gut? I feel

00:33:17.500 like it's not going to believe you. It doesn't matter. It's the same as. Oh, my gosh. The other

00:33:21.980 day I was was chatting with one of our babysitters about a breakup. And, you know, I mean, it's she's

00:33:27.360 25. This is the end of the world for her. Right. And I'm like, trust me, this is for the best.

00:33:32.480 you are going to feel bad and then you're going to feel better and you're going to be stronger

00:33:36.440 and you're going to be happier and your life's going to be better. And no one's going to believe

00:33:39.760 you at that point. Yep. No, absolutely not. They're not. And, you know, I think it's just

00:33:45.960 such it's such a beautiful place to land. And I really hope that like because I talk about all

00:33:53.140 the time that I have people in my village who are in their 60s and so happy. They are like

00:33:58.800 and they're wonderful parts of my village because they're like, hey, it gets better. Like, hey,

00:34:03.040 you know, that like big kid thing, like how you can have a conversation like it just gets it gets

00:34:08.900 harder, but it gets better. And like having people who are like on the next stage ahead of me is such

00:34:15.840 a gift. And I just hope that I can show up and continue to be that. And probably that's why

00:34:21.140 Latch Mama brings me so much joy is because I do have younger moms and we've always employed younger 0.83

00:34:25.380 moms, you know, and gotten to be their village and, you know, explain to them that it does get

00:34:31.380 better and babies do sleep through the night. And some of that stuff that really matters that

00:34:35.580 keeps you awake, gets you worried, you know, does get easier. It does. It really it really

00:34:41.240 does. And I want to I actually want to dive in the last mama. We weren't planning on talking

00:34:44.960 about this, but you are a small business being wildly impacted by what is happening politically

00:34:50.640 right now. And I just want to talk through some of the realities of that when we get back from

00:34:54.740 our last break i want to date with roars carty says roars rucker asks this is the love story of

00:35:07.520 real hinge couple carty and rocker written and read by me nicola dinan listen to the free audiobook

00:35:14.480 now. Okay, we are back. Talk to me a little bit about Lashed Mama and what is happening to you

00:35:26.280 right now during this weird, weird political time. Yeah, so my book, which we worked on for

00:35:34.600 years, launched the same week that the tariffs in China took hold at the massive level that they

00:35:43.020 did. You know, what a lot of people don't understand, like just quick tariff 101, is that

00:35:49.060 U.S. American companies buy goods from overseas. For us, we design all of our clothing. It is

00:35:57.240 hand-drawn, all done. It's manufactured then overseas, and then it is transported to the

00:36:03.140 United States either by boat or by plane. And when it lands in the United States, the importer,

00:36:09.160 which would be us, has to write a check to the government for whatever they charge us for in

00:36:15.080 terms of tariffs. So a lot of things are kind of in flux, like depending on where the tariff amount

00:36:21.280 is when it lands in the United States is how much money I have to give the government. So

00:36:26.900 what's also an extra piece of this that isn't really talked about is that if you can't come

00:36:32.040 up with cash, you have to pay a daily storage fee to whoever owns the container that it came over in,

00:36:38.400 which is up towards of $2,000 sometimes a day, depending on what ship person is that brings it

00:36:44.860 over. Eventually, if you can't pay it, it gets impounded, it goes to Department of Homeland

00:36:49.300 Security, and I assume it just gets blown up or burned or something like that. So I think what's

00:36:55.340 really hard, especially for small businesses like us, is the idea that there's an unknown.

00:37:01.060 It's also very hard because if you bring something over for, let's say, a dress costs us $10 for

00:37:08.020 round number to manufacture in China. I would owe the government right now an additional

00:37:14.160 $16 per dress that I bring over when it lands here, which makes it like completely impossible

00:37:21.220 to have any sort of markup or margin on it. And then my last little piece of soapbox

00:37:26.500 on this whole topic. No, no, no, no, no. I think it's really interesting because I also I also

00:37:31.900 think that we we don't talk enough to the small business owners who are directly impacted

00:37:37.880 by this. And I also think that small businesses are doing so much good in America. I mean,

00:37:45.080 they employ more people than any other, you know, industry in terms of, I mean,

00:37:50.460 we're across multiple industries, but small businesses are basically the backbone of the

00:37:53.940 country. But we're able to do really great stuff like Latch Mama. We allow mothers and fathers to

00:38:01.820 bring their babies to work, we say for the first year in the handbook. But for the most part,

00:38:05.880 multiple years because the child care crisis is so out of control. We also offer, you know,

00:38:13.660 100 days of full paid parental leave. So, you know, our little niche is supporting families.

00:38:19.660 And it's really wild to me and beautiful and overwhelmingly emotional. Sometimes what happens

00:38:26.180 when you allow especially a mother to be a mother first and an employee second? You know, we built

00:38:31.980 a very large brand, um, basically on that concept that I think that women and mothers can rule the

00:38:39.180 world and, um, we can do really, really great things. Um, when we're given the ability to

00:38:45.380 bring our entire selves to work, which means that, you know, we are going to be moms someday

00:38:49.660 and we're going to, you know, go home right after we drop our kid off at daycare and go pick them

00:38:54.700 up from daycare because daycare drop-off was so terrible and they need to be with them.

00:38:58.100 And so, you know, we it's been a really beautiful thing, but there are small businesses across

00:39:02.800 this country that are doing the same for veterans or doing the same for disabled people

00:39:07.920 or the elderly.

00:39:09.360 And we're really taking care of people in a country where people aren't always taking

00:39:14.500 care of right now.

00:39:16.040 And that's the part that makes me the saddest in all of this.

00:39:19.700 And that's the part that makes me the angriest, especially when you see companies like the

00:39:25.260 large tech companies that could weather these tariffs, they get a reprieve. But it is the small

00:39:32.760 cash strapped small businesses who literally do things just because they believe in their people

00:39:38.460 and they take care of their people that are going to be put out of business by this. And honestly,

00:39:43.760 I thought it was going to be a really quick thing. I thought it was going to be a, you know,

00:39:47.540 who can growl louder or whose thing is bigger type. Yeah, no, I thought I just thought it was

00:39:54.340 a dick measuring contest. I saw it. I didn't say that on your podcast, but I'll let you say it. 0.96

00:39:58.840 I can say dick measuring on my podcast. But if you look at some of the psychological things that

00:40:04.340 Trump has proven that he holds, plus the actual culture in China, it actually is a recipe for a

00:40:14.100 pretty large standoff. And that part is really hard for me because I don't know how long this

00:40:21.640 is going to play out. And at some point, you know, you have, you know, lives on the line and

00:40:26.640 livelihoods and stuff. So, you know, I said at the beginning, you know, I can't be when this whole

00:40:33.960 thing happened. I can't be the mom I want to be when I'm angry. And so I've tried to find some

00:40:41.580 sort of solace in the fact that I can't pivot right now and I can pivot a little bit, but I

00:40:45.860 can't pivot as bad as much as I would like to be able to. And that's a pretty large indication of

00:40:50.840 the fact that China does own manufacturing in the United States. You know, the value of an

00:40:57.740 American company is, you know, in its process and product, which are pretty much all overseas at

00:41:04.480 this point. And then it's people who are here. And then, you know, the last little piece is the IP

00:41:10.080 and the IP is being stolen left and right from over there. So kind of when it first happened,

00:41:15.740 I, you know, I had to kind of take a deep breath and say, you know, if my little LLC has to fail,

00:41:20.840 um for my kids to live in a country that is prosperous and healthy and good then that's

00:41:28.900 fine um but the longer this has gone on and the more exceptions he's made for companies that could

00:41:35.600 weather this the angrier i've gotten because i truly feel like now we're just in the middle of

00:41:40.320 a we're just the collateral damage the middle of a trade war which yeah you know which you are

00:41:45.860 yeah it's like when egos get in play is when i really get angry like when we're showing kind

00:41:50.640 of the worst side of probably like male culture in general, that's when I get angry because this

00:41:55.940 is not to bring manufacturing back to the United States. No, this is not. Because we don't have

00:42:03.280 cut and sew floors right now in the United States that can handle even our small, you know,

00:42:09.020 $10 million a year at our prime business. There's not a cut and sew floor that I could find right

00:42:14.700 now that could take our product. On top of that, there's not a textile mill. And on top of that,

00:42:20.040 there's not cotton and bamboo being grown down the road right now. So the idea that we could pivot

00:42:26.160 in any shape or fashion to manufacture here in the United States and weather the storm financially 0.95

00:42:32.620 and get there is complete horseshit. So that's when I get angry is, you know, you give a year,

00:42:40.780 you know, you give five. Totally. I mean, none of this seemed planned, right? It's like, oh my God,

00:42:45.620 I would love to bring more manufacturing back here.

00:42:48.080 Yay. 0.98

00:42:49.220 But then you have a plan to build factories first.

00:42:53.060 Absolutely.

00:42:53.920 And you have, I mean, and also I don't want to discount the idea that like the people

00:42:58.840 in China making these clothes are human beings as well.

00:43:02.480 And they are damn good at what they do.

00:43:05.200 And I don't, I don't, I mean, we could do it and it would be wonderful to have a skilled

00:43:09.840 workforce in the United States that could do the same.

00:43:12.080 but let's not discount the fact that they are highly skilled individuals and to think that we

00:43:18.060 could just pivot tomorrow and that I could teach somebody how to how to sew is it's just it's just

00:43:24.280 ignorant like it just can't happen um so yeah and people are like well why didn't you manufacture

00:43:30.040 the United States to begin with well because first of all there's not the infrastructure to do it 0.96

00:43:34.180 and second of all I have a hard time getting people to buy a $70 dress if I were to manufacture

00:43:40.680 for that in the United States and stay in business, it would have to be probably $270 to $300. And

00:43:48.720 who has that? I mean, nobody has that money to buy. The common individual who's just trying to

00:43:53.520 like put food on the table for their kids, they don't have those kinds of funds. So yeah, it's

00:44:00.020 wild. It's a wild time. But it's a wild time. And you know, something you said in there sparked

00:44:05.520 something for me about how you're trying to create a workplace where you can be a parent first

00:44:10.940 and an employee second and also creating community in the workplace. I feel like for so long

00:44:18.240 workplaces were places of community for men first and foremost. They truly are. This was where men

00:44:25.620 went to bond. They played golf with their work buddies. They joined the same country club and,

00:44:32.040 you know, sat in the sauna and a certain section of men. Right. But while we've made been able to

00:44:39.700 make friends at work, it has not been a nurturing community for most women. And the fact that you

00:44:44.860 as a small business owner are working towards that is what we should want from every business

00:44:49.980 in America. Yeah, I mean, thank you for saying that. I mean, I think that, you know, we I think

00:44:56.340 most women are somehow have a little bit of that scarcity complex and we're all just trying to 0.55

00:45:01.820 compete. And we're all just trying to get where we want to go. And, you know, it was really 1.00

00:45:05.660 important to me that when we built this brand that, you know, people are seen for the things

00:45:10.360 that make them happy and complete. And the idea that any woman in America can drop their kids off

00:45:15.500 and go to work and not focus on them at all and not think about them during the day, I think it's 1.00

00:45:20.660 just it's just bullshit. I mean, that's great. I mean, some of us absolutely need breaks and 0.99

00:45:24.940 my kids are at home right now and like I enjoy it. But, you know, I think we're kind of programmed

00:45:30.920 to want to take care of our young. And I think being able to meet in the workplace about that

00:45:37.060 and acknowledge that is such a beautiful thing. And I think it makes a more healthy mother and

00:45:42.240 a more healthy family. But yeah, I mean, I, I, I do think that, you know, you, you add onto this

00:45:48.300 conversation, like why the birth rate is declining and why we are so in such a freaking mess when it

00:45:55.540 comes to quote unquote, how to make women have more babies and how to make families grow their

00:46:00.620 their, their babies, um, or their families, it's just, it's wild because I think it's just another

00:46:07.160 like kind of slap in the face of not feeling seen at all. Um, and the idea that you could ever

00:46:13.860 incentivize somebody financially to have a baby is bananas to me. Um, I think really needs to

00:46:20.220 happen as we need to build community and we need to reach the point where women don't have to make

00:46:25.640 the choice between their mental health and their babies. I mean, it's very simple to me.

00:46:32.720 But for some reason, it's a very complex issue right now.

00:46:35.780 It really is. It's too complex, to be honest. I have one last question for you that has nothing

00:46:39.260 to do with what we came here to talk about. What is it like homeschooling your kids?

00:46:45.360 Yeah. So we've done a few different things for a while. Our nanny was an actual like had her

00:46:51.640 teaching degree when we had only a couple in school. And that was interesting. So she did

00:46:57.300 the majority of it. Well, I started with the dyslexic 13 year old who when he went to kindergarten or

00:47:03.380 when I started and he worked here at the warehouse with me on his schoolwork, but he couldn't hold a

00:47:07.860 pencil and he was getting his letters and it was just not good for our relationship at all. Come

00:47:12.200 to find out he had some some learning struggles. And then we moved over to Allie, who was our nanny,

00:47:16.640 who was a teacher who took on most of it. And then now my husband actually does most of it.

00:47:22.660 He works from home and he works with them during the day, which is wild and wonderful.

00:47:29.180 You know, I love my little people and my little people are so different than other kids their age

00:47:34.040 sometimes. And I love the idea that I'm putting different people into the world because I think

00:47:40.360 it takes all different types. It's interesting. I think sometimes I'm caught up with the idea of,

00:47:48.940 oh my gosh, they might not be on the same level. They're probably fine with math and reading,

00:47:54.580 but maybe some history stuff. But then they'll ask me some bizarre question that I won't know

00:47:59.700 the answer to because they learned it in some book that they picked up during the day because

00:48:02.880 they were bored and they had to read. So it's interesting. I think it's really cool. It's

00:48:08.300 really cool to see them kind of get to explore what they want to explore. I always say that like

00:48:13.780 I would never choose any of them to be my partner in a spelling bee. But like if the apocalypse

00:48:18.940 happened or like the world started to end, they can make the most amazing shelter and forage for

00:48:25.680 food and create a fire. And like all of these things like aren't important anymore. But like

00:48:30.880 I'd want them on my team. So, you know, I don't know. I think they'll get there. My oldest wants

00:48:36.600 to go to high school. So we're going to work towards that. He wants to go to public high

00:48:39.700 school. So we'll see what madness that brings to our lives. I don't know. It's great and it's hard

00:48:46.720 and it's all of the things. But as I say all the time, like no matter where your kids go to school

00:48:51.560 or no matter what season you're in, it's all hard and you find the joy where you can find it.

00:49:06.600 Thank you.

00:49:36.600 you want to impress them on a first date but also play it cool so what do you do

00:49:50.600 i'm rufy thorpe and i wrote and read a real love story about a hinged couple

00:49:55.100 that navigated exactly that listen to the free audiobook now

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - May 15, 2025

Where's the F＊cking Village？

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