Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Why Planning Summer Has Become a Nightmare

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00:00:53.040 Hey, all. Joe here and you are listening to Under the Influence.

00:00:56.680 I can't believe that February is finally here.

00:01:00.000 because January, it seemed like an entire year, didn't it? I mean, I kept, I kept saying to Nick,

00:01:09.320 I was like, my God, it has been a crazy year, man. And he's like, it's not even February yet.

00:01:19.660 It's only January 15th. I mean, it can only get better from here, right? There were a lot of

00:01:25.600 crappy things about January. We don't need to list them all. And we're just going to talk about one

00:01:29.020 them today, it's the fact that so many parents, starting in January, are asked to plan their

00:01:34.420 entire summer for their children, with spreadsheets and waitlists and thousands of dollars on the

00:01:42.120 line. And for so many parents, especially moms, because moms take on the burden of most of this,

00:01:48.600 summer planning has become a uniquely American form of hell. Today's conversation is all about

00:01:54.960 that pressure. My guest today is an expert on all of it. Katherine Goldstein is an award-winning

00:02:00.540 journalist and a fellow at the Better Life Lab at New America. She's also the author of the

00:02:05.800 substack The Double Shift. She has three kids, including twins, during the pandemic, which

00:02:11.060 woof, woof. And she's been reporting a lot on the stresses that summer vacation places on parents,

00:02:17.780 in addition to possible alternatives. So today we're going to talk about the stress,

00:02:22.020 but we're also going to talk about letting go of the idea that paid and structured programming

00:02:26.960 is the only path to a quote-unquote good childhood. This is a conversation for anyone

00:02:32.540 who has ever refreshed the application for summer camp 11 times at midnight on January 15th,

00:02:38.980 or who stared at a camp packing list at 10 o'clock on a Sunday night,

00:02:43.860 thinking nobody told me it was going to be this much work.

00:02:52.020 Hi, Jo.

00:02:55.600 How are you doing today?

00:02:57.900 I'm surviving.

00:02:59.160 I'm taking it one day at a time, one hour at a time, and this hour is with you.

00:03:04.440 I know.

00:03:05.120 And so this is a good hour.

00:03:06.800 I'm so happy to be with you, but same, same, same here.

00:03:10.380 I'm just taking it.

00:03:12.540 Sometimes I'm even going like 30 minutes at a time.

00:03:15.600 Yeah.

00:03:16.200 Sometimes an hour is too much.

00:03:18.180 Sometimes an hour is too much.

00:03:20.520 So you're here today to talk about a subject that is the scourge of parents in January.

00:03:27.300 And it's not the fact that we've had four consecutive snow days, but rather it's the

00:03:32.480 fact that we have to plan our entire summers and spend a shit ton of money for them in

00:03:39.320 January.

00:03:40.560 Almost every parent I know is struggling with this. 0.99

00:03:43.540 It's mostly moms struggling with this.

00:03:46.100 Do you think that it's gotten worse in recent years?

00:03:48.700 Yes, I would say if I have been looking at issues that we face in terms of dealing with summer care for kids for a couple of years now, and I would say that, you know, the problems just keep they hit differently, no matter just as your kids change their ages.

00:04:10.380 Like you start to feel different pressures, like you're going from one to two kids to two to three kids or you, you know, have new challenges.

00:04:18.220 Or this year I have a tweener who has a lot more opinions about what kind of camp he wants to do, et cetera.

00:04:23.800 But I do think things are getting worse in that camps, the cost of camp continues like everything in America is going up so that I think people are feeling the pinch there.

00:04:35.240 And I think that there's also availability issues as there's labor shortages and other problems that we still haven't really gotten over from the pandemic.

00:04:44.800 So I think that it is individually, it feels different every year and sometimes worse.

00:04:51.880 And then systemically, there are also still problems.

00:04:54.220 And definitely the cost of camps I'm seeing and hearing about from people are going up.

00:05:00.440 Yeah, I mean, I think that the cost of camps is going up.

00:05:03.500 I also think that the emotional labor and the actual labor on women to do most of these things is constantly increasing.

00:05:16.400 You've been covering this for a while now.

00:05:20.080 What other things are you hearing from your community about what they want to know to try to make all of this just a little bit easier?

00:05:26.500 Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the things that has one of the things I think that is so difficult about summer with kids is the sort of power of this private marketplace.

00:05:44.720 And that in that, even though it feels like there's a shortage and, you know, there's not enough camp spots in some places, often, you know, it's really about that they're competing for your dollars.

00:05:57.440 So it's like we're going to have different themes every week and we're going to have, you know, we have all these specialized things.

00:06:04.720 And so it just makes it feel like you're in this store similar to some kind of online shopping hellscape where you're supposed to choose all of these different things that then have all of these additional logistical challenges.

00:06:17.160 And then I think people feel pressure to, like, will my kid like this activity or should I send my kids to multiple different camps in different locations to, like, better suit their interests and, like, stuff like that that I just feel like even 20 years ago was not part of the equation in how we parent.

00:06:34.560 And I think that those pressures feel very hard and real for people.

00:06:40.040 How did you spend your summers as a kid?

00:06:42.080 i um spent my summers combination of like probably a handful of camps of stuff that i was interested

00:06:53.460 in like drama camps um family vacations and then also going to the community pool

00:07:01.040 so i my mom was not full-time in the workforce and had some flexibility but i would say

00:07:09.460 that I did not I was not going to camps 10 weeks back to back in the summer. And I definitely had

00:07:15.820 a lot of downtime and hanging out with friends and riding my bike, etc. Yeah, I was at day camp

00:07:22.940 pretty full time, which I never thought that much about. I mean, I never, ever once considered,

00:07:29.900 oh, this is a thing my parents have to do because they work. Yes. And probably I imagine that you

00:07:35.820 went to one camp, it wasn't like every single week you were going to a new camp with like new

00:07:40.780 requirements and new payment and new signups. Is that correct? Yeah. And you could do four weeks

00:07:46.860 in the beginning, four weeks at the end, or you could do all eight weeks and there was a school

00:07:51.280 bus and it was the same time as school bus. Yeah. And there was also aftercare. I mean,

00:07:56.020 it was really just modeled on creating school for the summer. Yes. Yeah. That. Yeah. And I think

00:08:04.380 that that was because it was solving a problem as opposed to this sort of like competitive

00:08:10.220 sort of like private how can we make these amazing experiences and also charge

00:08:18.840 amazing prices for camp experiences. Well I've got to tell you we've started looking

00:08:26.360 at sleepaway camps. We've got an eight-year-old who will be nine. I don't think the summer's

00:08:32.100 going to be right for it but the four week and eight week sleepaway camps cost more than college

00:08:39.640 yeah it you know in it i think it's really sad because i think sleepaway camp can have really

00:08:48.960 amazing transformative experiences for people and i think are really can be great for kids

00:08:54.860 independence and like such a cool thing and i hate that for so many people sleepaway camp is

00:09:02.960 is is really for the just the the most up upper um just basically for people who have

00:09:11.080 tens of thousands of dollars per child to spend on an experience i just feel like it's really

00:09:16.600 becoming out of reach for for most people i i think it truly is and when we also think about

00:09:23.500 oh my gosh if we were to have three children oh my gosh right i bet you like to go to summer

00:09:29.780 sleepaway camp or are you interested in college or i mean do the trade-offs then become do we

00:09:35.240 want to take a family vacation this year for me family travel is is wildly important so we've

00:09:43.300 been having we've been having a really hard time thinking about it and also then the mental

00:09:49.040 gymnastics of like, how do they get there if there's not transportation? And if I think it

00:09:55.940 can be kind of jarring for kids, it would be for mine to be doing a different camp every week and

00:10:02.380 then getting used to new rules and new situations over and over again. For sure, for sure, for sure.

00:10:09.740 And I think that, you know, a lot of kids have a hard time with transitions and adjustments and

00:10:16.080 getting comfortable places and so the sort of camp model of you know every week is different

00:10:22.760 and then you're like okay we don't want to do that and then your kid says they're bored halfway

00:10:26.580 through I just feel like there's no it's it's a very hard situation to feel like you're somehow

00:10:33.380 quote-unquote winning and the reason is that you feel that way are systemic they're not personal

00:10:38.800 failures I want to be very clear about that it's that we have very long summers in America we don't

00:10:44.260 have enough paid. We have no mandated paid vacation time like other countries do. We have a

00:10:49.680 high supervision culture and we have very few subsidized options. So there's no country that

00:10:55.200 I have found in my research that has all four of those negatives going. And so if you feel like

00:11:00.520 this is hard, it's not you. It is absolutely a social failure. You were interviewed by the New

00:11:06.280 York Times last June and we talked a little bit about it for the podcast then. I think this

00:11:11.500 headline is a little bit stupid and designed to go viral. It's called, 1.00

00:11:16.680 isn't okay for your kids to rot all summer? Yeah, not my favorite headline.

00:11:23.320 Let's talk about that after a really quick break.

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00:12:24.180 Okay, we are back.

00:12:26.280 I hate a lot of the New York Times headlines.

00:12:29.480 I hated this one in particular.

00:12:31.780 I think a lot of times they are either condescending to women and mothers,

00:12:35.800 or they're just designed to be viral and clickbait.

00:12:37.980 and this one is both. But the interview with you is very good, and you say some very smart things

00:12:43.920 about whether it is okay for your kids to, quote, rot all summer. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, I was

00:12:53.120 interviewed about that, and last summer we kind of did a radical experiment where we, for the first

00:13:01.240 half of the summer had a babysitter with our three kids plus an extra friend for my older kid

00:13:07.640 and they just did things like go to the YMCA pool and various local museums and attractions etc

00:13:15.080 and then um and then the second half of summer we went to Costa Rica for five weeks and we

00:13:23.360 figured out a way to do this that was basically the same summer budget we would have spent on

00:13:29.120 them all going to day camp and then also a one week domestic vacation. So I just decided I'd had

00:13:35.980 enough and I was going to spend upwards of $10,000 on the summer camp only that I felt like

00:13:44.060 that was a poor use of money. And I wanted to think about think outside the box about what would

00:13:49.480 be a great experience for our family and a good use of money. And I will say having come back from

00:13:56.440 that trip 15 out of 10 definitely great use of money and i we are planning to do it again

00:14:02.140 obviously this does not work for every family this requires being able to work remotely this

00:14:08.500 requires you know different kinds of financial privileges and you know uh your citizenship u.s

00:14:14.760 citizenship and other things that are not a given and um but i found that it's more is thinking in

00:14:23.880 in this way and using your money in different ways is more accessible than a lot of people

00:14:28.840 would think. And so I thought about writing a post or two about like things I learned

00:14:33.440 for my newsletter. But then I realized, you know, I had more to say than one or two

00:14:38.420 newsletter posts. And I also felt like it was more valuable than a monthly membership because

00:14:42.640 I feel like I figured out a bunch of ways to save a lot of money. And I also figured out,

00:14:47.500 you know, I made I decided to just I was constantly bookmarking programs that I thought

00:14:52.740 looked interesting or all around the world that you could go to and enroll your kids in. And I

00:14:57.080 was like, you know what, I'll make a list. So I made a spreadsheet of a list and that's part of

00:15:01.180 the guide as well. So I just decided it's not the situation for everyone, but I wanted to help

00:15:06.920 people dream about a way other than feeling like you're stuck in the status quo of week after week

00:15:12.540 of camp and spending a ton of money on something that like nobody's really having a great time with.

00:15:16.980 yeah it's true and i don't think we talk enough about different models and different kinds of

00:15:24.820 options you know or the fact that we're all kind of stitching things together yeah and i just think

00:15:32.040 that you know i don't like that headline about kid rot because i i really reject the idea that

00:15:40.060 formal paid structured programming is the only way for kids to have enriching experiences

00:15:48.020 and I think that that is part of what compels us to feel like kids have to be in camp especially

00:15:53.900 as they get a little older and don't need direct supervision as much but part of the problem of

00:15:59.540 course is that if your kids don't have to be in camp but all their friends are in camp and they

00:16:03.760 have no one to hang out with then you're kind of still stuck so I think that like I love the idea

00:16:09.460 of getting out of experiences where the only thing enriching is a, you know, paid, you know,

00:16:16.600 a paid program that you had to compete to get into like that. I just don't buy that as a way

00:16:21.640 of thinking about raising children. Like that is the only thing that's acceptable. Right.

00:16:27.900 Like some institutional thing that someone else created. And I and I've been very honest about it.

00:16:33.460 We have just kind of pulled summer care together for the past eight years of parenting.

00:16:42.760 We've been very lucky.

00:16:44.660 We have worked with an au pair for, oh my gosh, about six years now.

00:16:50.360 And this is the first summer that we will not have full-time child care.

00:16:55.000 That even became more difficult when the big kids got older too, right?

00:16:59.140 Because like you said, if their friends aren't around, no one just wants to go to the playground, just their siblings.

00:17:05.720 Like, ew, gross.

00:17:07.000 They don't want that.

00:17:08.180 Sure, one afternoon, but all day, all summer is not, it's going to be hard.

00:17:12.540 Yeah.

00:17:13.020 Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:17:15.300 And so we're au pair-free.

00:17:17.140 My husband and I work together, and so we have a lot of flexibility.

00:17:22.620 I also happen to have about a three-week book tour.

00:17:27.860 Yuck.

00:17:28.260 When you say you have a lot of flexibility, I also feel like you have a lot of jobs.

00:17:32.440 You always astound me with how prolific you are.

00:17:34.600 So I don't know where the flexibility comes from because you still have to get stuff done.

00:17:39.600 Well, because I can do it without having to be on a lot of other people's schedules.

00:17:44.300 Yeah.

00:17:45.160 That said, I can't be entertaining my kids all day, every day.

00:17:50.520 Where do I want to?

00:17:52.180 Right.

00:17:53.100 Yes, for sure.

00:17:54.560 And so is your three-week book tour, are you planning on taking the kids with you?

00:18:00.000 Or is this mostly on your own?

00:18:01.680 How are you combining with other family trips?

00:18:04.260 Such a great question.

00:18:05.200 And I'm sure the other question that listeners have is, tell us about the book.

00:18:09.140 Well, the next one, of course.

00:18:11.540 This one is the Parisian heist.

00:18:13.380 Okay.

00:18:13.940 Ooh, yay. 0.65

00:18:14.880 A feminist art heist in the Musée d'Orsay and the untold story of Joe Van Gogh. 0.72

00:18:20.660 It's delicious. 0.93

00:18:21.460 Everyone should order it now.

00:18:22.340 it comes out on Bastille Day, July 14th. But yeah, it's going to be where I mean, we're figuring out

00:18:28.620 the tour right now. It will I'll be alone for a week, I think, which just lets me fly to places

00:18:35.180 I have to fly to road trip together for a week like we did last year, which was awesome. And then

00:18:41.240 I'll probably drive locally for about a week, but I'll be home during the day. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Got

00:18:47.880 it so yeah when you say a three-week book tour you're not sort of like ensconced alone for three

00:18:54.140 weeks like you there's different ways that are sort of more accessible but i am very i'm personally

00:18:59.240 excited about this book because i've been a big fan of your last two books um and i am so excited

00:19:05.300 about the confluence of your of your fictional world with real life events um i'm super excited

00:19:13.320 about this book yeah no i mean i'm super excited about it it's gonna be it's gonna be so fun

00:19:17.860 But again, complicated, also fun. The kids had a lot of fun tagging along for the book tour last year. We went out to Harrisburg. We did Dorney Park and Wildwater Kingdom. And we went down to Shenandoah. We did a lot of fun things. And they also really like seeing me work and seeing me at book events.

00:19:41.000 but that's i mean that's pretty much a lot of july like our children so planning camps around

00:19:46.660 that i think maybe we have two weeks where the kids could possibly be in camps thankfully thankfully

00:19:52.940 the three-year-old her school goes year-round so she's out of equation which is just a blessing

00:19:58.880 yeah yeah i think trying to get get your kids in the same camp will be crucial because i feel like

00:20:07.060 i hear these stories about people who are like i thought that it would be good to sign them up for

00:20:12.740 two different camps they're like wait they're on the other sides of town and they have different

00:20:15.980 drop-off and pickup times like it just adds so much logistical struggle it's also something that

00:20:21.780 i think going into it i would have been like well i would love to give them individualized camps

00:20:30.040 and you know what they can both like the same thing for a week yes they can uh yeah and i

00:20:36.580 really i really encourage parents um to sort of try to get break out of that mentality about that

00:20:45.300 every week of camp seems to somehow need to be optimized for their kids preferences i think the

00:20:51.740 most important thing to be optimized for is your sanity that's number one um and then after that

00:20:59.220 You know, making sure they're in a relative, a relatively safe environment, just relatively safe, relatively safe, you know, by 90s standards is my standards.

00:21:09.700 But, yeah, I know I do think that when we think about it as just there's infinite choices, then I think that that's sort of where some of the real crazy making comes in that really is exhausting to parents.

00:21:23.560 It's like one of my least favorite things of camp time in summer is that Sunday night.

00:21:30.000 What fresh hell awaits us on the packing list for tomorrow?

00:21:34.420 You know, what time do we have to be there?

00:21:37.080 And what special color shirt are you supposed to wear?

00:21:39.660 And what are the 14 snacks you need to pack?

00:21:43.320 And do why do I need to read literally 12 pages of instructions to drop you off at summer camp?

00:21:49.740 And doing that over and over every Sunday night fresh is just so exhausting. And so whatever you can to simplify the experience, I think is really important for parents to give themselves a break because you're probably going to have less child care. You're going to have less bandwidth. And, you know, however you choose to spend the summer, you want some downtime. You want to be able to enjoy things with your kids. You don't want to be spending all of your time just pulling your hair out, trying to get your work done because summer camp is not enough child care.

00:22:17.900 yeah well and that's the thing even if you optimize this even if you get all of your

00:22:25.100 first choice camps yeah it's still often not enough child care for two working parents

00:22:30.000 for sure for sure most most summer camps well i would say a lot of summer camps you know end

00:22:36.720 at 3 30 and then you can pay extra if you want to go to you know 5 30 and i was just on a call with

00:22:43.900 members of my newsletter who are you know talking about how they have an in-person job that they

00:22:49.260 have to leave their house for at 6 45 in the morning you know there's just like there's just

00:22:54.560 so many layers that make it difficult to just continue to function as a working person in

00:23:02.180 America so whatever you can to make your camp life easier try for it and another tip I would

00:23:08.180 give is that a lot of times like the competitive I'm using air quote camps where you have to like

00:23:13.040 race to sign up at a certain time just because i don't think that those are inherently better

00:23:18.940 i like i think that they're just things are in or things are like people have good reputations i

00:23:26.020 think you can find camps that aren't like it doesn't have to be like the only camp that it's

00:23:32.020 worth sending your kid to is the one that you have to compete to get into like i want to get out of

00:23:36.360 that mentality for sure i mean sometimes that that really is the only you don't have a lot of option

00:23:41.020 But I just I hate that sort of feeling that we're all elbowing each other out of the way for child care.

00:23:46.720 It just, like, makes me really sad.

00:23:50.720 Yeah, I couldn't I really couldn't agree more.

00:23:54.320 I want to dig into what your plans are and this idea of traveling abroad.

00:24:00.360 You're not the only person that I know that does it.

00:24:03.260 My friend Reagan takes her kids on a big international trip every single August.

00:24:08.320 and she started doing it because she had three kids right and like we were just talking about

00:24:14.460 she's like for much much less than i would be paying to put the three of them in camp we can 0.85

00:24:19.820 go on a wonderful family vacation that takes a lot of factors to make it work a lot of privileges

00:24:26.920 but she loves it and and we we're gonna try to go to the cat skills for most of august because

00:24:33.980 I'll still be working. We're actually going to try to hire someone that can be like a camp counselor

00:24:39.440 for a big scrum of children up there for a couple of weeks. And then parents will rotate like our

00:24:45.680 camp independence that we've done for a couple of summers. But I know that a lot of people want to

00:24:51.320 think about doing this trip abroad. I think that your guide for that is super great. I'm going to

00:24:57.060 link it so people can buy it in the show notes because you kind of give people a worksheet to

00:25:03.600 see if this will even work for them. And when we get back, I just want to talk about some of the

00:25:07.820 questions that you throw out there. I want to date with Rawls, Carty says. Rawls? Rocker asks.

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00:25:33.600 okay we are back you had so many questions from people about how you do a summer abroad

00:25:39.960 on a budget that you created a guide to this that that people can buy it's so comprehensive

00:25:46.080 you talk about where to go what to pack how to save money and and how all of these things can

00:25:53.000 be tailored to your family it's very workbook style which which i appreciate because i love

00:25:58.320 a good workbook. But talk to me a little bit about the kinds of worksheets that you're giving

00:26:04.140 families to figure out if this works for them. Yeah, I, you know, I really wanted to help people

00:26:10.700 go from like, that sounds like a really cool idea to could this work for our family? And what are

00:26:17.200 our requirements to make this work? And for me, the way I always, the way I thought about this

00:26:23.140 was I have to figure out a child care option that's going to work and then I can plan the rest

00:26:29.620 of the trip around that. And so for other people, they might say, you know, it has to be we want it

00:26:37.080 to be in this certain country because, you know, we have family there or we have experiences there

00:26:41.100 or we need to be within a certain time zone or we want to be, you know, not more than we don't want

00:26:49.240 to be more than a direct flight from XYZ or whatever it is. So I'm trying to help people

00:26:54.540 sort of narrow it down to sort of think about what their requirements are. And I do think it's very

00:26:59.340 easy to sort of get into total dreamland Instagram. I'm making a Pinterest board of our amazing

00:27:06.500 international experience. But but actually thinking about like, you know, going abroad

00:27:11.820 is very different even if you are not in um you know for there's a lot of things that will be

00:27:21.140 different even if you have been to the country before that it's different with traveling with

00:27:25.280 kids like are you okay with not having a dishwasher are you okay like what's your

00:27:29.020 air conditioning requirements like how big of a place do you need like these are the sorts of

00:27:33.260 things i want people to think about um but at the same time i do think that there's hugely

00:27:39.180 life-changing and eye-opening and really, really transformative opportunities to get outside of

00:27:46.240 our American experience, even for, you know, a month can be really transformative. And I

00:27:52.800 definitely feel like it was for me and my family. And what advice do you have? I mean, there's so

00:27:58.240 much in the guide, but what can you tell our audience right now about how you can save money

00:28:03.800 on travel when you do this yes so um a big so the first way that i think it's really great for

00:28:11.540 saving money is um to get really thoughtful and strategic about your credit card points like

00:28:17.840 obviously people are like oh yeah i have some credit card points but um i learned a lot from

00:28:23.040 uh rachel uh libson at brooklyn family travelers who have tons of insights into credit card point

00:28:30.500 strategies. And definitely, I think very much more differently about credit card

00:28:37.740 spending than I used to and sort of how to get enough points to cover airfare. Because I think

00:28:43.660 if you are strategic, you may be able to get enough points to cover your family's airfare costs

00:28:50.700 for a trip. And that could be, you know, really helpful. Like you can't use credit card points

00:28:59.480 to pay for summer camp but you can use to subsidize to go somewhere else um and i think

00:29:05.060 that that's a really important strategy i would also say um looking for making deals um also

00:29:13.180 thinking about going off you know direct platforms like airbnb that charge really high fees and

00:29:18.880 making deals about getting um better deals for a longer rental rather than a shorter rental i think

00:29:24.640 can be a great way to save money also, you know, and there's some there's some advantages to going

00:29:29.160 for a longer period of time versus a week. You might end up paying some of the same amount that

00:29:34.440 the airfare for a week is the same as a month. So there's different ways to sort of think about

00:29:39.100 how to make your money go further that I go into. When we travel now, we usually rent a house.

00:29:48.000 uh hotels are really hard with with families of five and we just we i mean we need more space

00:29:56.500 at this we need more space for individual kids to be alone the baby's outgrown sleeping in the

00:30:02.900 shower at hotel rooms which is just heartbreaking to me yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean now because now

00:30:10.580 she's like cognizant she's like i'm in a bathroom you're like this is a bathroom not a bedroom

00:30:15.580 mother families of five I think especially have it's very hard to to stay in one hotel room with

00:30:22.160 a family of five I mean some hotels won't even allow it um so I definitely think um thinking

00:30:28.820 about like what's going to work for your family and you know a big thing that I really like is

00:30:33.080 sort of settling in somewhere and you know you buy groceries you don't go out to eat every night

00:30:38.600 you um kind of feel like you're more you have space to spread out you can kind of get more

00:30:44.460 familiar with the lay of the land. And I think that to me, I guess some of this is called the

00:30:49.040 term for this is slow travel, which I like. And, you know, creating your own routines in a new

00:30:54.700 place, I think can be great. And I found this trip, this past trip to Costa Rica, actually

00:31:01.320 truly relaxing. And I don't know if I've been on a trip with my children ever that I would call

00:31:06.720 relaxing. That was a major win. Yeah, I have to say, I mean, we were only in London for a

00:31:14.440 week when we went over Thanksgiving, but we got a very cozy Airbnb in Paddington. So easy to get

00:31:21.440 to everywhere. We ate most of our dinners at home because we would have a big lunch out and then we

00:31:28.260 could, you know, put the baby away or put the baby away. And we watched movies and we played games

00:31:34.760 and we started a puzzle and there were definitely stressful moments, but it was also the most

00:31:39.860 relaxing trip that I've had with my kids. Yeah, I think coming into those routines and also when

00:31:45.780 you're not like, we've got to do everything, you know, and recognizing that your kids are going to

00:31:51.520 get tired, they have limited bandwidth and not trying to fit every single thing in and optimizing

00:31:57.480 every restaurant and, you know, going from dawn till dusk really is, I think, the way that you can

00:32:05.020 make really great memories with your kids. And I think that can be really hard when we feel like

00:32:09.420 we have limited vacation time and like this was really expensive, but we got to make the most of

00:32:13.340 it. And so, you know, I just think about trying to think about a whole new way to travel that

00:32:19.960 tries to take away some of those pressures can really be super rewarding. Yeah. And you have a

00:32:27.280 lot of really good questions in here in this guide, you know, that you should ask yourself.

00:32:33.220 I mean, it kind of seems like a fun psychological exercise to do with your spouse. How do we really

00:32:38.380 enjoy traveling right like and you do you suggest that you should do this as as a couple right

00:32:44.980 sure yeah and I think like um again how you want to travel as a family is just is probably going

00:32:53.660 to be so different than how you could travel as a couple or a single person and so just thinking

00:32:59.100 about you know like for example when my husband and I we did we would we love traveling we did a

00:33:05.340 lot of travel before we had kids and like we prided ourselves on like basically never renting

00:33:09.180 a car we would just be like you know we're gonna we're gonna walk we're gonna take public

00:33:13.080 transportation we'll take taxis like we're gonna be loose and you know we don't need a car and now

00:33:18.020 like we need a car we need a car because we can't get kids to walk for like multiple miles in

00:33:24.100 tropical heat and that's just the reality so I think that there's certain things about what your

00:33:29.040 actual requirements are and like what um what are the things that are important to you are you

00:33:35.980 interested in being in a bilingual experience are you definitely not interested in being in a

00:33:42.160 bilingual experience or being you know unfamiliar with the language is intimidating to you like i

00:33:46.720 just think um and thinking about what what your past travel experiences are and how comfortable

00:33:51.580 you are how comfortable you are with long travel days all of that i think is really important to

00:33:57.080 get into as opposed to just the fantasy that we're going to live abroad for a summer or whatever

00:34:02.620 and hopefully that's going to be helpful in actually finding a program and an experience

00:34:06.720 that's going to work for you and i think couples can have very very different ideas about this for

00:34:11.300 sure no i think they they absolutely can i think one of one of the shows that i joke that i want

00:34:18.320 to create is just recording couples as they try to make travel plans yeah well and this came because

00:34:25.040 we were just sitting on our porch with our friends, Casey and Steven, and they were trying to figure

00:34:30.820 out logistics for a trip and talking about, you know, the nitty gritty of it. Like, do you want

00:34:35.980 to fly a red eye with the kids? How are we going to feel the next day? You know, what if we can't

00:34:41.260 all sit together? Like these things that are so boring, but it's so fun to hear a couple talk

00:34:45.900 about them. Yeah. And they I mean, also similar to like planning a wedding, they bring up so it

00:34:52.520 brings up so much about your values and priorities like is the red eye worth saving eight hundred 0.98

00:34:59.040 dollars you know what i mean like is it where are your values on your sleep and your sanity versus

00:35:04.740 money or where um you know is it more important to spend time uh doing activities versus relaxing

00:35:14.220 like there's so many different things that come up are you and your husband you all are such um

00:35:19.640 big family travelers are you all on the same page about trips or what are your what is your like

00:35:25.100 point do you have point of like regular disagreement about trips you know we're

00:35:31.720 starting to come to a consensus because we've done it enough that we're figuring out what works

00:35:37.220 and my husband is a points guru he's so good at points yeah and also super picky about which

00:35:45.140 airline we travel. I mean, we only ever fly American. Oh, interesting. I was not expecting

00:35:52.140 that. I was expecting something classier. I mean, we're not we're not classy people, Catherine.

00:35:57.580 We're not. Well, we live in Philly, so clearly. Well, we flew American to Central America and

00:36:04.240 it was fine. There were no TVs on the plane, but it was fine. It's fine. That's what screens are

00:36:08.500 for. Well, but Philly is the American hub, so we don't really have a choice. A lot of flights.

00:36:13.020 uh one of the things so but and he like also wants to get us the cheapest airfare

00:36:20.260 while i hate spending money i'm also now of the mind again and this all adds up when there's five

00:36:28.240 people it really adds up it's one thing when it's 200 cheaper for one of you but then the dollars

00:36:34.720 times five is a grand so but I finally come to the decision I would prefer non-stop flights

00:36:43.360 yes I really as much as possible I would also prefer I mean the thing with like going to Europe

00:36:51.060 you pretty much have to take a red eye I'd prefer to get our accommodations

00:36:54.680 like the night before so everyone can go to sleep immediately yes that's smart yes I would

00:37:00.720 prioritize my mental well-being comfort and less meltdowns in favor of spending money and my

00:37:07.060 husband is getting there but he's not as there as I am yeah no that I think it's hard it's so hard

00:37:15.180 because like there's a there's like the school of thought of like you know we don't need to coddle

00:37:21.460 our children they'll rise to the occasion and sometimes they do sometimes they do not and so

00:37:28.140 just trying to game out like what how it's gonna go versus how much money it's worth spending to

00:37:35.620 to think it will go better is really hard you know because you don't it's not guaranteed that

00:37:41.560 if you get xyz it's gonna go better or that the kids will melt down less but maybe you know it's

00:37:47.500 so that's the like the calculus that is i mean honestly i think the best the best hack about

00:37:54.660 kids not melting down. It's just like, wait till they're past toddlers. And that helps a lot with

00:38:01.280 them not melting down, at least in my experience. And I'm also a big fan of not checking bags and

00:38:06.240 having to pay all those bag fees. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, because we have so many points on

00:38:11.920 American, we never pay bag fees. Yes, good. We always have priority boarding and we have lounge

00:38:17.460 access most of the time. That's great. So that is paid, especially with all of like your book

00:38:21.960 travel and stuff it's paid to just go all in on american for you exactly exactly it truly has it

00:38:28.140 can be annoying sometimes but it has paid to go all in on the on the one airline right uh going

00:38:35.720 to london we flew through boston we went from philly to boston and then boston to heathrow

00:38:40.420 and we did we did save money on it but then the boston flight was delayed until past midnight

00:38:47.400 night and again that delight could have happened in philly but then it would have happened before

00:38:51.880 we'd already been on a plane for like an hour and a half and so i just i do think that added to the

00:38:57.600 meltdown but then we we did have lounge access there which made it easier it doesn't make it

00:39:03.420 like great by any means but like the kids can you can feed them a little easier it's just

00:39:08.600 you can kind of i set up like a bed in the corner for the baby i mean people hate me in a lounge

00:39:13.780 i don't care i don't care i'd love to run into you in a lounge show i'd be thrilled i mean i'm

00:39:18.820 fun i'm also a lot of fun in a lounge but yeah i mean i think that we're learning it's trial by

00:39:22.820 error constantly uh i don't i don't even really love switching planes on a flight by myself

00:39:29.460 anymore like i just kind of want like one and done uh at ease and comfort like i i really

00:39:37.480 i care and i used to be such a rough and tumble traveler and now i just care about my sleep and

00:39:45.200 my rest more than anything more than i ever have i i totally hear you and it's hard to show up as

00:39:51.880 a parent when you are so exhausted and we yes we all know that and you know another thing that i

00:39:57.540 will say that another plug for sort of like the longer kinds of trips that i feel is so revelatory

00:40:04.340 is like you know we went to Costa Rica for five weeks we're going back for four weeks this next

00:40:08.680 summer and part of it is like when you're going for that long like a terrible travel day you're

00:40:13.300 not like well now the trip's ruined you know what I mean like you are like we have more time

00:40:18.040 it's okay if it didn't go as planned we get delayed etc and there's that less of that sort

00:40:23.380 of panicked feeling that your vacation is flipping away that was like extremely refreshing and I

00:40:28.960 haven't been on a trip you know the longest trip I've taken before this was like my honeymoon for

00:40:34.340 two weeks uh 12 how many ever 12 or 13 years ago so it's not like I've gone on a lot of long trips

00:40:41.260 recently and I just love that aspect of it and that's like a big part of why I'm really hoping

00:40:46.580 people will try out some longer trips you know instead of just camp after camp um through reading

00:40:52.380 the guide. Yeah, yeah, me too. I, again, I think there's a lot of different ways of doing this.

00:40:59.700 We get very tricked into thinking there's one right way and you have to throw all of your money

00:41:05.460 at the problem and that you have to constantly prioritize what you think is best for your kids

00:41:12.320 or your kids' future instead of prioritizing yourself. I think we're both here to tell people,

00:41:16.600 take care of yourself put your oxygen mask on first yes and let me tell you that spending five

00:41:22.860 weeks in Costa Rica instead of just sending them to camp they complained about was an amazing oxygen

00:41:27.620 mask for me um we sent them to a camp in Costa Rica and they had a good time they learned how

00:41:35.220 to surf including my five-year-olds my five-year-olds can surf which is kind of astounding

00:41:40.400 And like we like thought saw a different way to live.

00:41:44.140 And it was a simple way that was very low stress.

00:41:47.880 And that was amazing.

00:41:49.040 And I feel like it was really a trip that I feel like I have that has like I took away something profound from it, which is like very much more than I can say from sending kids to summer camp.

00:42:01.540 I will just say that.

00:42:02.400 I also hear so many kids complain about summer camp.

00:42:06.360 And when you're spending that much money on something, it breaks your soul in your bank

00:42:10.540 account to hear your kids moan about it.

00:42:12.600 I don't want to go this week.

00:42:13.620 You're like, cool, bro.

00:42:16.200 Would you like to refill me?

00:42:17.700 You know, like, it's so frustrating.

00:42:20.460 Yeah, for sure.

00:42:22.200 We all just need to give ourselves a little bit of grace.

00:42:26.040 For sure.

00:42:26.700 For sure.

00:42:27.800 All right.

00:42:28.040 I'm going to drop your guide to traveling abroad on a budget in the show notes.

00:42:33.020 Will you also tell everyone where they can find the rest of your wonderful work?

00:42:36.360 Yes. Please come follow me at The Double Shift on Substack. I write about all sorts of

00:42:43.840 interests, all sorts of issues facing families. But right now I'm focused a lot on teaching people

00:42:50.060 how to build in-person community. And I have a book coming out about that in 2027. And it's called

00:42:57.240 Deep Casual, A Practical Guide to Building Community You Can Count On.

00:43:02.900 I love it so much. And you, thank you so much for being here.

00:43:05.480 Thanks for having me.

00:43:35.480 you want to impress them on a first date but also play it cool so what do you do i'm rufy thorpe and

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00:44:54.740 You

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - February 03, 2026

Why Planning Summer Has Become a Nightmare

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