00:13:54.800So giving people the power to know it's OK, or maybe like you don't click with your nurse
00:14:00.160or your doctor to be like, what do we do?
00:14:01.620Here's the steps, how to get your answers.
00:14:03.860And I talk about it because you, like you said, people, we think we're not supposed
00:14:07.140to or we're going to be labeled as difficult.
00:14:09.140And this really comes into play with people who are already targets in the healthcare system. So black and brown people, younger people, like a 16 year old black teenager might not feel that she can speak up in the same way as somebody like me, because she might think, well, I'm getting labeled as difficult. What are they, are they going to send CPS to my house? Are they going to investigate?
00:14:30.140so there's all these other layers that you know we're working to advocate for and to change and
00:14:35.320here's how you can advocate and here's what you should expect and the things that you have a human
00:14:39.540right to and i just wanted to spell it out for people because i don't think people always know
00:14:43.920you're you deserve to like literally have your questions answered it's very basic
00:14:48.260wouldn't wouldn't it be the coolest thing if like a year from now you were in the delivery room
00:14:55.780and someone had a copy of your book like in their birth bag but maybe not realizing that you were
00:15:00.540the delivering doctor and it was just there like would you die i think i would i think i would
00:15:06.220fangirl and i would be like thank you so much like you've just made my day and um yeah i mean i i have
00:15:13.400definitely cared for patients before who have recognized me and it's and we have like a good
00:15:17.720little laugh one time though it was like during a speculum exam and her sister was like oh are you
00:15:22.960that one on instagram i was like yes and what about that a few minutes while i'm not like you1.00
00:15:28.460know looking at your sister's cervix but and we have in your vagina in your vagina yeah i love0.99
00:15:33.020that i love that i actually i had the opposite i had someone in looking in my vagina um who was0.99
00:15:39.660like wait a second i've read all of your books and i was like yeah that's gotta be yeah also0.89
00:15:47.140how's my service look how's my cervix look yeah um but uh thank you thank you for being a fan and
00:15:54.080a reader that is awesome did you like them as you you know oh i did oh no we've stayed friends
00:15:58.920we've been friends oh no i meant that they like your books yes oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
00:16:03.800they liked my books i liked her as a doctor it really all worked out okay it would have gone the
00:16:08.000other way could have gone the other way yeah oh my god all right let's let's take a quick break
00:16:13.040And then I want to want to get into a little bit of myth debunking.
00:17:37.980you know, then then it should be it should be listened to. And all leading organizations say
00:17:44.460that unless there's a reason, like, for example, if we're doing a vacuum or forceps and we need
00:17:49.120you in a certain position, that you should be able to decide how you give birth. So I think
00:17:54.860that's a huge one. And I think it's changing a bit, but I still think there are some people who
00:18:00.540just they were trained to only deliver babies on, you know, with people on their back. And so that's
00:18:05.020all they ever default to and anything else seems weird and they're like well sure you can push this
00:18:08.540way you can push however you want but you have to birth on your back i'm sorry but um we are
00:18:13.440heavily trained we can do really complicated things like c-sections like force up like
00:18:17.420we can figure out how to help somebody have their baby standing up or in hands and knees like it
00:18:22.500works you can have a baby in every position that you make a baby in i say almost because there's
00:18:28.200probably something i haven't thought about there's definitely something you haven't thought about
00:18:32.100mm-hmm people do weird stuff people do people do crazy stuff they do they do yeah but almost
00:18:38.820almost every position you can make a baby in yeah and then the second method i hear a lot is that
00:18:44.540having an epidural increases your risk of c-section and this is not true and i will get
00:18:50.640pushback and the evidence shows that this is not true now with older generations of epidurals it
00:18:55.880probably was and that's because they were using a lot higher doses of medicine and so it was a lot
00:19:00.500denser but the doses we use today and by we i mean the anesthesiologist i'm not doing it i'm doing
00:19:05.740enough i'm not doing that um there's no increased risk of c-section and we don't have data to
00:19:11.120support this and i i write about it in my book but we have seen some cases where somebody you know
00:19:15.940they're they're stuck in labor maybe they're stuck at eight centimeters or what have you or they're
00:19:19.580you know and then they get an epidural and then 30 minutes later their baby almost comes out and
00:19:24.760it it just kind of makes sense right you think like the pelvic floor is relaxing so if something
00:19:29.280it was stuck kind of moves through. We don't have data to support it, but we've all seen it. So
00:19:33.460epidurals are great if you want one. And if you don't want one, that's great too, but don't avoid
00:19:37.160it because you think it's going to cause a C-section because that's not true. Yeah. I had a
00:19:42.240really hard time during the Birth of Baby List podcast as a host, as a journalist, being epidural
00:19:48.820agnostic. I mean, I wanted to talk about all of the different things, but I just personally loved
00:19:53.080epidurals so much. It was the greatest thing that could have ever happened to me. And it filled me
00:19:59.860with so much joy and it made everything so much easier. I remember like, yes, but tell me the
00:20:04.600pros and cons. And then in my head, I'm like, but I loved the drug so much. Right. Yeah. No,
00:20:10.200I had one with my first and it was amazing. And it was it was perfect. And then I didn't have one
00:20:14.660with my second. And that was also amazing because that's what I wanted. But it was very different.
00:20:19.140but I didn't feel like one birth, like I earned more than the others. I cannot stand the shame
00:20:25.460that I see online for people who've had epidurals. And they're like, oh, you took the easy way out.
00:20:30.000Hello. Have you seen the epidural needle? Have you seen what it's like when a baby comes out
00:20:34.220of you or, or you've had a C-section that's the easy way out. Do you know how many layers of your
00:20:38.720own tissue we go through? That's amazing. That's a major abdominal surgery that you're awake for.
00:20:43.580and then you have to keep a human alive like no no again and a lot of this shame comes from other
00:20:51.580women yeah yeah just the ecosystem of it it truly kills me you must see a lot of it do you see a lot
00:20:59.900of the guilt and the shaming online of pregnant people and new mothers i do and a lot of times
00:21:07.180it's because people will tag me in something and they're like dr jen go for it i'm like oh here we
00:21:11.900go. You know, let's choose this battle or let's not. But I, a lot of it comes under this like
00:21:16.600wellness umbrella, right. Of like, and some of it's really extreme, Joe, it's like, don't have
00:21:22.540prenatal care. Don't get an ultrasound, have your baby at home just by yourself. And I mean,
00:21:27.500that's totally the extreme, but the more common one that we see is like, you know, having an
00:21:32.840epidural is like not natural. And it, and there's so many myths that say that epidurals increase
00:21:37.560your risk of autism which is not true um and that like if you if you have a c-section like you have
00:21:43.980harmed your baby because they haven't been exposed to your vaginal microbiome and it just goes on and
00:21:50.060on and the shame that i see people who already might feel sad that they didn't get the vaginal
00:21:57.500birth they wanted right and they had a c-section to have to add on this other layer and like you
00:22:01.620said it's from other moms and other women often i'm like what kind of like who didn't hug you
00:22:06.340enough when you were little that you think this is okay to do to people so to have to undo that
00:22:11.360it's really hard and I don't know if we ever fully get there and I try to report all this garbage and
00:22:16.920it never gets taken down but I do my best but um yeah it's like psychological warfare and I hate it
00:22:22.600and so I want people to go in and be like okay like in my book I'm like okay here's if you need
00:22:26.040a c-section here's to like ask the questions like do you really need it are we like going down the
00:22:31.440path or how to feel about it, how to process it, birth trauma, one in three women in the United
00:22:37.000States rate their birth as traumatic. And I'm not just talking like physically, like you had a
00:22:41.140shoulder dystocia or you hemorrhaged, but like something for them, it caused trauma. That's so
00:22:46.440high. And so how do we prepare people if something didn't go the way that they'd hoped for? How do
00:22:51.660you take care of yourself afterwards? Yeah, it breaks my heart as if having a baby isn't hard
00:22:55.940enough, then we have to make people feel guilty about it. Like the guilt comes afterwards when
00:22:59.960you you know like your kid falls off the bed or you you know feed the mcdonald and then you realize
00:23:04.800actually they're fine like they're so fine you forget to pick them up from kindergarten one day
00:23:09.060and they're also right yeah exactly or you know like nobody asks and and i i love vaginal birth
00:23:15.800and i love all these things but nobody's asking you on your like admission exam to whatever like
00:23:20.700how were you how did you show up in the world like did your mom love you enough to have a
00:23:24.860were you breastfed yeah breastfeeding is cool but like oh my god nobody's tracking this
00:23:30.400nope you're not getting points nobody cares nobody nobody nobody cares nobody cares but yes
00:23:38.000i mean eradicating this shame and guilt if i could wave a magic wand and fix some things about social1.00
00:23:45.880media about the internet it would be to take away the guilt and shame constantly heaped on women0.94
00:23:52.840but particularly on mothers by other women yeah it sucks i feel like those people there's you0.95
00:23:59.680know a special place in hell for them which of course as i went to catholic school i know all0.97
00:24:04.780about he double hockey stick and i was told many times i could go there but this could be a special
00:24:09.540place a special place a special place for them to sit around and just shame and guilt other people
00:24:14.180exactly exactly oh well we've been talking a lot about women i want to take one more quick break
00:24:21.540and talk about men, because I think that men should be reading this book. I think dads should
00:24:26.480be reading this book. I think men should be consuming all of your social media. So let's
00:24:31.260talk about that when we get back. All right, we are back. When we were doing the Birth with Baby
00:24:44.800List podcast, we did a whole episode on partners. But the first thing I said was,
00:24:50.700I hope this isn't the first episode. It was the seventh, right? So I hope this isn't the first
00:24:55.260episode that the partners are tuning into because I really want to create an ecosystem where male
00:25:03.020partners start being parents from conception, from the same time that women have to start being
00:25:09.600parents. So, you know, I know that you wrote this book for both parents. What do you hope that the
00:25:15.460dads are taken away from this well like you said i hope they read it because you are your partner's
00:25:23.320first support like you are their person right if you helped make the baby you should be really good
00:25:28.700at helping the baby come out maybe not physically but like the whole process you should be there
00:25:33.600from start to finish so to know what's normal to be able to keep these things in mind to be able
00:25:39.460to reassure your partner um yeah like in my dream world you know both people have read this book
00:25:45.260maybe they folded down a few pages they've asked some questions particular things to their midwife
00:25:49.800or ob but in that moment where you're like oh my god i can't articulate this because i'm having
00:25:53.280contractions your partner can step in and um i did my own podcast to coincide with the release
00:25:59.560of this book so it's it's you know just out it's called let's talk about birth it's 10 episodes
00:26:03.520and same thing i did one episode for the dads and the partners and i was like i hope this is not the
00:26:08.700only one they listen to but um you need to you need to understand these things and be an advocate
00:26:13.720it because you are just as important. And especially for people who might not feel
00:26:18.840comfortable speaking up, you can be that person who does it. And then she doesn't feel like she's
00:26:22.840creating that issue. And I also think that partners get ignored too often. My husband's
00:26:28.900a pediatrician. And when he sees those, you know, those new babies, their, you know, their initial
00:26:33.740visit, and they give the mom this depression tool screener, he also makes sure that the partners
00:26:39.220get it or the dad's a non birthing person. And he can't tell you how many times he's identified
00:26:43.540depression in dads or anxiety and they just tear up they're they're like oh i have you know who do
00:26:48.860i follow up with because they don't go to their doctor it's not like they're going to annual
00:26:52.100exams in the same way we might but dads experience ptsd birth trauma postpartum depression anxiety
00:26:58.500too and it's not being talked about enough especially when we're like men should just you
00:27:03.240know just have a stiff upper lip like no they feel these things too they you know they might
00:27:08.180watch their partner suffer or feel like they can't help so we have to enable them and again
00:27:12.540And when you have the language and you know what to expect and what you have a right to, then you have the right to, you know, you can seek it out and be like, hey, I need some help.
00:27:21.820I mean, I think about this all the time.
00:27:23.700I'm like, how are we just going to solve the man problem and the male loneliness epidemic?
00:27:29.340And it is so much of it begins with outreach and acknowledging that that men go through birth, too.
00:27:37.400Obviously not in the same physical way, but if they're there with a partner.
00:27:40.800and it's a big transition to go from not being a dad to being a dad. I think that, you know,
00:27:48.620my husband became an entirely different human being after we had our first child and no one
00:27:54.640acknowledged it. Right. Right. Because when are they getting their six week checkup? And if you're
00:28:00.000listening and you're like, oh, my God, like we need to support women better. Absolutely. Like
00:28:04.080100%. But it's not a zero sum game. We can do both things. We can do all the things. Right.
00:28:08.340Yeah. And the way that you could support somebody who just had a new baby, the woman is by making1.00
00:28:12.760sure that her partner is getting therapy if he needs it so that he can be a better person,
00:28:16.400so he can show up as a better dad and a better partner. I mean, physiologically,
00:28:20.600men's hormones change too at birth and after. There's a reason that we co-parent and we do
00:28:27.760these things and that one affects the other, the sleep changes, all of that stuff. So
00:28:31.980this messaging of men like you know men have no idea we also need to include them and we need to
00:28:39.120say hey like and it starts with education it starts with welcoming them into the visits if
00:28:43.860they you know if you want them there and and just also expecting them to be there right dads don't
00:28:49.160babysit the parent so like society needs to get on board and see that and then also be there for
00:28:55.300them when they struggle you know and they need help and understand that they are also dealing
00:28:59.480with a unique set of circumstances when they show up as like the one dad on the playground they might
00:29:03.260let's be welcoming let's understand that we're all doing this together and it's not like one or the
00:29:07.840other it's it is not one or the other and and i do get a lot of that pushback when i talk about
00:29:14.420these things i want all the things for all the people right i i want moms to get better care
00:29:21.800the fact that i mean we're even saying that women don't go to a doctor until six weeks i'm like
00:29:26.180Nope. I would like more than that. Much, much more. Much more care than that.0.96
00:29:30.900And then I would also like the men to be seeing a doctor, to be seeing a therapist, to be getting the care that I think that they also deserve.
00:29:41.740I think women and children would be a lot better off if they did.
00:30:08.660I've, like, emailed you and been like, oh, my God.
00:30:12.580Everything's burning and it kind of is.
00:30:14.600And it's still a lot better than it was.
00:30:16.800So let's keep going. Let's keep teaching our kids that, like, you know, again, dads don't babysit. They parent. Boys can play with dolls. We don't have to force them. There's so many ways to just normalize it without putting on all this other stuff. And just teaching people, like, even starting in school, when you learn about sex ed, like, using anatomical terms and taking the shame out of it, it starts literally there and changes your trajectory for how you're going to feel empowered or not when it comes to having a baby.
00:30:45.040Yeah, absolutely. And I don't even think we have to go back 50 years. We can go back to, you know, when you and I were growing up and, you know, when we were kids. And I look at you're also raising boys and I'm raising a boy. And I look at how he views caregiving and parenting. And it's so different, I think, than the boys when I was growing up.
00:31:08.940yeah no and i love some of my favorite videos i saw one recently on tiktok where
00:31:13.440the little boy was at his doctor's visit and his mom was like she's gonna come in to see you now
00:31:17.860the doctor or no he said he's gonna come he's gonna come in to see you and he's like what do
00:31:22.240you mean the doctor's a boy he's like i thought all the doctors were girls oh i love you i love
00:31:27.560you i love you so much i know exactly exactly i had a big conversation with my son the other night
00:31:35.100about how two women have a baby and how two men have a baby and he like kind of knew before but
00:31:42.680now he really wanted to get into the technical nitty-gritty yeah of how it worked and like all
00:31:46.800of the science doing the algebra yeah yeah yeah exactly exactly it's like one egg one sperm but
00:31:52.200where do you get those things and how do they get where they have to go and those I think are
00:31:56.360questions that I love that an eight-year-old is now comfortable asking yes and I do not think
00:32:00.940they would have been as comfortable asking depending you know where they live 20 years ago
00:32:05.240no sister claire was not talking about you know how diverse families could be in my in my class0.98
00:32:11.560um same thing with my kids and i think what's so cool is to just see how it's it's not a thing
00:32:17.700they're just like okay fine like it's not a weird thing and it's because you have to teach that
00:32:25.000that shame or you have to teach that like oh my god i can't believe johnny has two dads you're
00:32:29.920she's like, oh, Johnny has two dads. Cool. Whatever. Like, you know, when you think about
00:32:33.820how nonplussed kids are now, you think back to like, you know, oh my gosh, Susie, her mom is
00:32:39.740divorced. You know, and he never talked about that. Like, oh my God, I know. Now you're like,
00:32:43.140whatever. And it's not to, for people who are listening, you're like, oh my God, nobody values
00:32:46.180the, you know, traditional family, which whatever that is. But the point is, is that you're not
00:32:49.960taking slices away from the pot. You're growing the pie. And isn't it amazing how we can have all
00:32:54.620these loving families and they can look very different. And our kids are just like, I just
00:32:58.900want to be loved. I don't care what it looks like, you know. I just want to be loved. I just want to
00:33:03.740be taken care of. And don't we all want more pie? That's the question here. I want more pie.
00:33:09.960I know. It's all, you know, a good pumpkin pie goes a long way, my friends. A good pumpkin pie
00:33:15.180goes a long way. And yeah, so I do want to recommend to people when you're going to a baby
00:33:22.200shower, and I do love that a lot of baby showers are now co-ed, get the book for the couple, get
00:33:26.760the book just for the dad, right? Just this, it's a great present for dads to also feel more
00:33:34.740capable because I know that my husband, he reads way too much on the internet. So he reads a lot
00:33:39.780of Reddit, right? A lot of Wikipedia. A lot of Reddit. And I'm like, I actually do not want you
00:33:46.260getting your birth information. There is some good stuff and then some not so good stuff from
00:33:51.720Reddit. I mean, we talk about women getting misinformation from Instagram, but there's a
00:33:56.380lot of dads out there that are getting it from reddit threads okay and so yes books like this
00:34:02.180matter for men too i've put out a challenge to my audience whenever i have a brilliant woman author
00:34:09.800on this show you know we tell everyone we're like buy all the books it's so important to support
00:34:14.300authors but buy them for men i just want more men reading books written by women about women's
00:34:21.760experiences i love that that's why you're awesome yeah because it's it's hard it's a hard world out
00:34:28.300there and i think sometimes men don't even know what exists or like you said they're on reddit
00:34:33.880they might not be following me i definitely have some men who follow me but so now i have to go on
00:34:37.900reddit thank you joe another thing to add to my list oh yeah sorry i didn't want to give you more
00:34:41.820work okay you know i'll make my husband do it maybe i'll do um but yeah like and i i to the
00:34:49.620women listening, please don't get mad at me. We need to expect this from them. And that means
00:34:58.400that including them in this and saying, hey, I would like you to read this or this is important
00:35:03.040and I want you to know about it. And then I trust you. I'm not going to cut you down.
00:35:10.400It's like when we talk about abortion and I've heard some people say no uterus, no opinion. I'm
00:35:13.860like, no, no. I want everyone to have an opinion because you might not have a uterus, but I want0.62
00:35:18.360you to support those that do. And sometimes they listen to your voice more than mine. So I want
00:35:22.520everybody, I want everybody to be in on this game. And anybody who's involved with having a baby,
00:35:26.620making a baby, I want you educated and empowered because everybody's voice counts.
00:35:32.100Everybody's voice counts. I love that. That is our mic drop moment. Will you tell everyone where
00:35:36.100they can find you on the social media and where they can find the wonderful book, The Birth Book,
00:35:41.080an OBGYN's guide to demystifying labor and delivery?
00:35:44.720yes you can find me on all the socials at dr jennifer lincoln that's dr jennifer lincoln
00:35:50.100you can go to my website dr jennifer lincoln.com and you can buy my book at any bookseller but i
00:35:55.160would highly highly ask that you support your local booksellers mine here in portland oregon
00:35:59.160is wallace books and i also love powell's but um yeah it's available for pre-order now unless
00:36:04.180you're listening past march 24th it is available and the audiobook i narrated myself which was
00:36:10.680such a journey like oh my god oh my god it's a lot it's hard a lot it's a lot but i had a lot
00:36:16.880of fun and i was like i'm not letting anybody else do this so yeah would love to have you along and
00:36:20.860then if you get it let me know write a review yep all the things everyone's getting this book i love
00:36:24.840it i love it i love you you are the best thank you so much thanks for having me joe you're awesome