00:14:27.900And yet, we don't, we're like, Buffy takes him in and is like, okay, now you're part of the Buffy gang, the Scooby gang, like, by extension.
00:14:40.640Even that episode where it was about him, like, coming to terms with the fact that he killed Jonathan and did bad things, and, like, there is some sort of atonement, isn't atonement.
00:20:09.600they want riches he wants power and his way to get power over people is to control them
00:20:14.100and unfortunately it turns into the murder of his ex-girlfriend and eventually the murder of
00:20:18.320tara and the attempted murder of buffy because i think i i think they all wanted power though
00:20:23.300stephan like i think i agree with you but they want i think they want to be like lex luther
00:20:28.680not the joker no yeah i'm no i'm not saying it's the same kind of power that warren wants
00:20:34.480i think that they all want power they all want to have this level of notoriety they want to have
00:20:40.640this this like quote unquote i can't think of the word i'm looking for but the bare bones of it is
00:20:46.900like street cred they they want to be praised for being these like people geniuses exactly but again
00:20:56.540And, like, even that episode, again, glazes over the fact that it is, like, a truly disgusting display of, of, I don't know what I'm looking, the word I'm looking for.
00:21:11.780It's just, like, the fact that she has to point it out to them is horrible.
00:21:17.460They look at her with these blank eyes, and they're like, we were just having fun.
00:21:21.960Because they want to be like Mr. Freeze and the Penguin.
00:21:24.740they don't want to be murderers but i'm saying like for them to look at that situation and not
00:21:31.300immediately pull out huh if she's not there if she's not in control of her own body and mind and
00:21:41.140if she is just serving warren and he is having sex with her then that is rape and for them to be like0.98
00:32:38.340and they kept them forever i don't know if i can count you understand yeah the amount of women1.00
00:32:48.600because it didn't go where you thought it was going the amount of women that have been conditioned
00:32:56.140to think forever you can save him you can fix him it didn't go that far it only went you know1.00
00:33:05.120because it goes right back to the grabbing or you know grabbing somebody by the ass0.98
00:33:08.660right it's like there's this level that we're supposed to accept boys will be boys boys will0.98
00:33:17.240but guys it's a real horrible thing the boys will be boys and as much as i don't want to even
00:33:23.780overhear it when my young girls to students talk about it at school boys are still being boys
00:33:28.420they're still you can still hear remnants of it even if in passing conversation0.67
00:33:34.840And I feel as though Buffy's response, albeit frustrating from the outside, is unfortunately very symbolic and quite literally true of how women let it go if they can.
00:33:56.420if it doesn't go and even guys even if it goes all the way there's a lot of you know what i mean
00:34:02.120don't get me wrong there's a lot of well he was this i just listened and i know this is a weird
00:34:06.920real relatable point i just listened to chris brown talking about when he beat the heck out
00:34:12.040of rihanna whoa really did you guys i don't yeah and it's funny i'm listening to him talk
00:34:19.580and they're giving him all this space to explain and i'm like this is there he's just like you
00:34:28.360should hear i'm not going to recount the story because it makes me lose my mind but the way he
00:34:32.840paints rihanna but also remembering what rihanna took before the fun like when we see the pictures
00:34:41.420of rihanna don't think there wasn't case a b c d e f g before we got there yeah or she had the
00:34:49.300split lip and you couldn't even discern who she was and then we don't talk about that that was
00:34:56.780oh it was just the one time no it wasn't no it wasn't there's going to be many times
00:35:01.920where you accept the abuse and you think you pushed it too far you think you were involved
00:35:09.740you let it go because he can be a better man i i honestly think it's it's gross very but it's
00:35:17.920I still think it's very reflective of culture.
00:35:37.540Because culturally, it was a wound we all carried.
00:35:42.780The fact that it was the first and only time that you see Amber Benson in the opening credits,
00:35:46.800And apparently Joss Whedon wanted to, in the beginning of Welcome to the Hellmouth and The Harvest, have Jesse Balfour also in the credits to show that any main character could die.
00:35:58.720But so he basically framed this as like, OK, this will just be a great way, very catalyst for Willow's like dark magic to come out and people will get over it.
00:36:13.600Like people will be shocked and horrified and this will be great.
00:36:16.800the amount of like hate they got letters people stopped watching he was like i did not
00:36:23.980i was on he was he said in an interview i was unprepared for the force in which people were
00:36:30.180so opposed to this death that people stopped watching marty noxon said that she couldn't read
00:36:36.400the letter like amount the amount of letters that came in she's like most of them she found
00:36:41.020so distressing because people were like why would you do this is the first lesbian representation0.93
00:36:45.680on tv yeah critics came out saying like the the um the uh the price for lesbian sex is death0.98
00:36:54.380um on television and it was very much in that era of kill the gays yeah so i wanted under i so this0.97
00:37:02.980is the first time i've ever asked actually like a lesbian what they thought of this because me i was
00:37:07.140just like hollowed out um but i would love joe like what was what was your reaction to this you're
00:37:14.080not gonna love my reaction two things oh no because i wasn't out at the time
00:37:21.240when this came out i was still in this nice little bubble of really boring you know relationships
00:37:29.080with boys and when i watched it i went like i was upset by it of course i was much more
00:37:37.500moved by by by willow's pain than anything else um but when i watched it i don't know how
00:37:46.220like because what year was that well i guess 2001 i guess i would have been out around that time it
00:37:53.820must have been oh god i can't even i can't even 2002 here 2002 yeah 2001 to 2002 i would have
00:38:02.800been freshly out I would have been freshly out and I didn't I don't think I took it in that way
00:38:11.820primarily because I wasn't a part of the kill gate like you know the the amount of movies or
00:38:19.080the amount of any anything that I would have seen prior to that I would have packed away in my own
00:38:24.460little homophobic brain I don't think I would have been I would have been homophobic prior to coming
00:38:29.680out. I don't think I would have registered it on the level I now register it. But to be honest,0.95
00:38:36.900I don't know if as a kid, I registered a lot of television that way. I don't, I just don't know
00:38:43.400if I did. The, even on a, on a feminist level, I think the older we get and hopefully the wiser0.96
00:38:52.080we become and the more you can see kind of those those issues throughout society the more a show
00:39:00.660like this means which is why I think for me Buffy's always meant more and more every year it
00:39:05.560hasn't diminished I think it's probably because my intelligence has increased thank heavens and
00:39:11.540my awareness has increased because when I was a kid I watched it as I watched it with a kid's brain
00:39:18.280if that makes any sense the stuff we're talking about now i don't think i really i don't think i
00:39:25.320felt it the way that i feel it now the way that it makes my blood boil now 100 right same same
00:39:32.300so so i don't i didn't have that kind of visceral response i'll tell you more of a visceral response
00:39:38.300i have now is talking to because i've had the opportunity to talk to people like amber benson
00:39:42.240and, and listening to the way she speaks about the iconic sort of imagery and what happened and how
00:39:51.220it played out. Then I'm like, I never, it never, I didn't know about the letters. I didn't know
00:39:58.020about the, you know, I just, it didn't, it didn't play out that same way in my world,
00:40:05.040the way it plays out now. Well, even Sarah Michelle Gellar said that she felt betrayed
00:40:09.420by this season she said season six is released favorite season um she felt betrayed by how
00:40:16.320buffy was connecting she did not like the relationship the destructive relationship
00:40:22.080with spike she said it was so different from the one that she had with angel in this show that it
00:40:26.140didn't make any sense to her and the problem was that because joss whedon was doing angel and
00:40:30.260firefly and buffy and had stepped aside from the writing she had no one to talk to about her like
00:40:36.140her disagreements with the decisions that were being made so she's like this isn't Buffy this
00:40:41.540isn't why people love her or the show it didn't make any sense so because it's supposed to be
00:40:46.820about like you know it's it's that's part of you're not a kid anymore you know you don't want
00:40:52.620to do with you don't know what you're doing with your life you're confused and and the decisions
00:40:57.320that were made on this season were so such a dark tone even she's like this is not what people are
00:41:03.300here for like this is not why people are you are you reading when was that are you reading
00:41:08.160what she would say now she said actually so it's there the article is from 2003 and 2017
00:41:19.180so she said in 2003 it wasn't Buffy it wasn't who Buffy was or why people loved her you don't want
00:41:25.160to see that dark hero and you don't want to see her punishing herself you want to see her killing
00:41:28.800vampires and making quips I didn't feel like the character it didn't feel like the character that
00:41:32.760i loved joss always explained it as being about your 20s where you're not a kid but you don't
00:41:37.420know what you want to do he always said that i didn't understand last year because i've always
00:41:41.800known what i wanted to do and didn't have that confusion that dark depressive period but i think
00:41:46.080the heart of the show lies in the humor of the drama and i felt like buffy's spirit was missing
00:41:50.420and again in 2017 she said i've always said that season six was not my favorite i felt it betrayed
00:41:55.740who she was even just getting to talk to joss about being able to get his opinions was not as
00:42:00.240easy when he was up not upstairs since he had so many shows and that was hard so so yeah it's
00:42:06.360funny because she couldn't talk to marty noxon would you yeah that's why um she's been having
00:42:17.320a bad bad day for you to come on through although um and i i'm sure you're very easy to talk to
00:42:25.260yeah i'm sure you're lovely i don't know our policy uh but it's i would love to talk to the
00:42:30.860writers when we look at when we look at buffy though is it because we've said this time and
00:42:36.640time and time again i wonder if sarah michelle geller has really taken you know she's an actress
00:42:45.060she plays a role like she's not a feminist theorist she's not an academic in that light
00:42:50.200I'm not saying she's not intelligent, but when you look at it, to me, season six makes perfect
00:42:56.340sense. Season six makes perfect sense after her crappy relationship with her father, after Angel
00:43:03.560does what he does, and that dynamic exists, and that sort of paternal, it all makes glowing. She
00:43:10.500died, was in heaven, and then doesn't feel anything, which to me is very symbolic of that
00:43:16.920one relationship that got like angel gutted her soul because she had to do something to him right
00:43:23.600she had to do something she didn't want to do but she didn't stop loving him she hadn't been
00:43:28.280through a relationship where that person got you so badly that you have nothing left and she
00:43:36.320actually had to die for that to happen and come back that was the only way they could do that
00:43:40.520but i think it's perfectly reflective of the trauma women in general but buffy had gone through
00:43:48.140in order to get to that arc um and i think the notion that it's supposed to be just light and
00:43:54.280quips and all of that that wasn't the best buffy which is what they tried to bring in season seven
00:44:00.580yeah the best buffy was when it got a little dark the best buffy is when you saw those points
00:44:08.320from an analytical point of view um when you saw those moments and you realized all the characters
00:44:14.880were flawed you realized everybody has a dark side you realize all histories catch up if you
00:44:23.280don't contend with them i to be on like i thought that was the most powerful thing and did it get
00:44:30.020dark yeah well it got willow flayed somebody it got my god why would buffy immune to that
00:44:37.720buffy doesn't flay anybody like why is buffy immune from that she can't be and instead of
00:44:43.280buffy the reason why it's so impressive instead of buffy putting it on other people like willow
00:44:48.080did he internalized it of course she did because she is the heroine so she will carry it and if
00:44:54.280it hurts her more so be it and that's what a lot of women do instead of externalizing it
00:45:01.120we don't flay a lot of people we we internalize it well that's something and that's something0.99
00:45:07.940faith says to buffy in a sense in season seven where she says my whole life i've looked at you
00:45:12.420with the kid sister and the watcher and the friends and i thought jealous but then there
00:45:15.860i was meant to lead these people and i've never felt so alone and that's you read that you didn't
00:45:20.380know that quote you read that 100 no i swear to god i when it comes to faith i'm like that
00:45:26.380but like that's some quotes and it's true though it's like you know thank god we're hot chicks
00:45:31.780with superpowers takes the edge off i love that that's my favorite um but like this just to to
00:45:38.280round it up for because again my least favorite season but with my absolute favorite villain
00:45:43.300having willow because willow being my favorite character from day one of season one and watching
00:45:49.160her grow and have her addictions and something you both mentioned last time was right like0.99
00:45:55.080people don't expect cute sweet willow to have all like that you know the addiction because1.00
00:46:00.640it's not what you think an addicted person looks like but to see her go through addiction and1.00
00:46:08.240trying to get clean and then getting her life together and then losing it all in a snap
00:46:13.760the moment where she screams at osiris and it just that energy is blowing out of her face her eyes
00:46:20.680hands in the books like it just so many iconic images and moments from this season from two
00:46:28.900episodes of this season like everyone wants to talk about the musical and they can have their0.96
00:46:32.600musical because that's what glees for this is the moment where she just like oh my god everything
00:46:40.560Like, I was watching this episode, like, last week, Grave and Villains, or Villains and Grave, and literally, I'm just mouthing and saying every word as she's saying it, because it was so memorable and so iconic that I just, it stuck with me.
00:46:53.800And I think it stuck with a lot of people, you know?