Vulgar History - Brunhild, War Queen Of Ancient France

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00:00:25.740 Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.

00:00:30.000 My name is Anne Foster. And this is a really, this is like, if you remember, if you grew up in the

00:00:34.980 nineties, it's like, this is a very special episode of Vulgar History. So in 2021, I asked

00:00:43.540 on Instagram for suggestions of people, lesser known women from history to talk about on Vulgar 0.71

00:00:49.100 History, which just so you know, I'm always open to suggestions and recommendations. And a person

00:00:54.700 from Ireland, whose name was Egg, whose name maybe still is Egg, sent me a message saying

00:01:01.260 FREDIGAND in like all caps, as I recall. And I was like, well, who is that? And I looked up

00:01:05.820 Fredigan's Wikipedia page and I was so captivated by it. There's still a highlight. If you go to

00:01:10.560 vulgarhistorypod on Instagram, I have a highlight of all my frantic, frenetic stories from when I

00:01:15.620 first just read the Wikipedia page for Fredigan. I was like, the story is everything. And then I

00:01:21.620 read an article about Fredegand. And at the bottom, the article was written by Shelley Puhack.

00:01:26.520 And it said, Shelley Puhack is working on a book about Fredegand. I was like,

00:01:29.360 there's going to be a book about Fredegand. And it's a book about Fredegand and Brunhild,

00:01:33.680 who was another queen at the time. The book is called The Dark Queens. I got an early advanced

00:01:38.900 copy of it. If you go to the Fredegand highlight of my Instagram stories, you'll see me frantically

00:01:43.520 posting screen captures from that ebook because I was compulsively interested in it. I did three

00:01:50.320 episodes about Fred again, three hours worth, because I could not spare any detail. And then

00:01:56.040 later I invited Shelly on the podcast to talk about her book. And she was like, why do you

00:02:01.320 like Fred again so much more than Brunhild? And I'm like, I don't know. It's partially because

00:02:05.220 that was the name that was suggested to me. And so that was the person I was researching.

00:02:08.800 So everyone around her was like, well, that's Fred again, his husband, that's Fred again,

00:02:12.040 son, that's Fred again, his enemy, that's Brunhild. But anyway, Shelly is much more

00:02:17.100 even keeled about these things. And then in the subsequent years from 2021 until now, people have

00:02:22.720 told me how much Fredegand means to them. It's a lot of people's favorite episodes. I just heard

00:02:27.180 recently somebody's car is called Fredegand. I know that people have avatars and video games

00:02:32.680 called Fredegand. It's a whole thing. Fredegand is just everything I want in a story. She's

00:02:38.660 maybe my favorite person I've ever read about in history, full stop. I just can't get enough

00:02:45.120 of Fred again. She's just a messy bitch who lives for drama and murder and everything. But I've also, 1.00

00:02:52.680 since those episodes, heard from people who, lots of people have read Shelley's book, which is

00:02:57.040 called The Dark Queens. You should read it. There's a paperback out now. There's an audiobook.

00:03:01.740 It was a national bestseller, finalist for the Goodreads Choice Awards, partially because I

00:03:07.440 strongly encouraged the Tits Up Brigade to vote for it last year. Anyway, it's a great book.

00:03:11.540 people have said you know I read the book but and they're almost apologetic they're like and I think

00:03:16.720 I prefer Brunhild and that's fine that's fine you know you can like Fred again best you can like

00:03:23.020 Brunhild best you can like both of them it's not an option to like neither because if that's you

00:03:28.460 then this is not the right podcast for you so I have been meaning for ages to give Brunhild her

00:03:34.640 due to do an episode from Brunhild's point of view which she did live several decades longer

00:03:40.280 than Fredegund. So we're getting into talking about the story of Brunhild gets into, you know,

00:03:45.880 decades later than Fredegund lived, you know, Fredegund, she just like, she, she lived fast,

00:03:51.020 died young. Brunhild, her story is a really different vibe. And they, and this is what

00:03:56.120 comes across in Shelley's book. Like both of the women were there and often they're pitted against 0.64

00:04:00.020 each other, especially in like 19th century operas and things like that. Like it's exciting,

00:04:07.300 i guess to some people to be like oh these two women and they were like rivals against each

00:04:12.760 other like how people like to put mary queen of scots against elizabeth or whatever where it's

00:04:17.520 like well they were there and they were enemies at times and they were not enemies at other times

00:04:22.420 but they were really it's like they represented countries and the countries were at war it wasn't

00:04:26.380 like a personal vendetta between the two of them anyway fredegand is always going to be my girl

00:04:32.700 but Brunhild I when I reread the dark queens just to refresh my memory but also to just like look at

00:04:40.360 it from Brunhild's point of view and I'm reading it and I'm talking to Shelly I've really come to

00:04:45.340 appreciate Brunhild more like Fred again is always going to be my forever number one but Brunhild is

00:04:50.260 up there like she's a legend compared to so many other people we've ever talked about on this

00:04:56.040 podcast and Shelly you know she's kind of team Brunhild so I I'm not objective I had to bring

00:05:01.960 her on. So anyway, enjoy the next two hours of me and Shelley Puhack talking about the amazing,

00:05:09.860 the iconic Brunhild of Austrasia. So I'm joined today in a repeat appearance by Shelley Puhack.

00:05:23.800 Welcome, Shelley. Thank you so much for having me back. So I was looking to see,

00:05:28.900 I can't believe it was so long ago that the Fredegond, Fredegond, I'm thinking in French

00:05:33.860 right now, Fredegond episodes came out.

00:05:36.200 It was like 2021, but that was just before your book came out, right?

00:05:39.060 Is that when it came out?

00:05:40.320 What?

00:05:40.860 Yeah.

00:05:41.620 It seems so long ago.

00:05:43.220 It was like eons ago.

00:05:44.820 Yeah.

00:05:45.380 No.

00:05:45.580 And I was the, I don't know.

00:05:46.300 It still seems so fresh to me.

00:05:47.820 I was just rereading your book to get ready for this episode.

00:05:50.260 And I was just as in, actually, no, I did get as into it, but I started reading.

00:05:54.340 I'm like, oh my God, these names.

00:05:56.060 I need to adjust my brain to remember just the place names and the people names and everything.

00:06:03.080 How has the last two years been for you?

00:06:07.300 Like with your book, what's your experience been like, you know, with the book coming

00:06:09.640 out in the world and people responding to it?

00:06:12.040 It has been better than expected.

00:06:15.660 I've been really pleased with like the response.

00:06:18.420 I've gotten to meet a lot of like really enthusiastic readers, but from all walks of life.

00:06:23.020 So I love that about the story where I get everyone from, you know, really erudite, like history professors to teenagers.

00:06:33.080 My like, I just did a reading and book signing a little while ago.

00:06:37.480 I think it was two weekends ago, but it was at a Renaissance festival.

00:06:41.100 I had to appear in like period, they requested period wear.

00:06:44.480 So let me tell you, it's tough still to find like proper Merovingian dresses.

00:06:49.820 But, you know, it was really, it was really great.

00:06:52.140 And I had everyone there from, like I said, kind of your typical RenFest, you know, RenFair folks to like, I had a lot of like grandparents who were into looking at the book for like their daughters or, you know, maybe their sons.

00:07:08.980 That would be great.

00:07:10.200 So it's been marvelous and it's been out in paperback and it even cracked national bestsellers.

00:07:17.220 That's so exciting.

00:07:18.140 and was it last year it was one of the finalists for the goodreads reader's choice as well

00:07:23.020 it was yeah i did what i could to get the fredigan gang to all vote for you but you got to the final

00:07:30.420 round yeah yeah that was amazing and you guys are very committed fredigan has and you know

00:07:35.960 really committed fan base it's pretty it's pretty daunting well that's why that's part of why you're

00:07:42.380 here. Brunhild deserves as much love and admiration as Fred again. I, a couple of weeks ago, it was

00:07:49.720 like, I forget. I was just asking on my Instagram stories because it was some anniversary for the

00:07:54.580 podcast. And I asked people, you know, what was, what's something that you've enjoyed in the

00:07:58.840 podcast or, or I didn't even ask what was your favorite episode or your favorite person, but

00:08:03.020 I was like, what's something you've learned? And so many people were like Fred again.

00:08:06.000 that's amazing yeah yeah so it made me glad that made me glad when I was rereading your book

00:08:13.760 and remembering how she was so forgotten after she died that there's this resurgence in people

00:08:20.260 who love her including me but we're here to talk about Brunhild because your book is

00:08:26.320 the dark queens it's about two people Brunhild deserves to be discussed actually that's funny

00:08:33.760 too. Because I just heard every now and then people tell me like, oh, I read the book and

00:08:38.800 almost apologetically, they're like, and I think I prefer Brunhild. Like, that's okay.

00:08:45.160 I love the apologetic nature of it.

00:08:47.420 Yeah. Brunhild is great. So I was rereading your book for this conversation,

00:08:51.820 focusing on her, you know, Fredegand has got this sort of, she charges into the story with,

00:08:57.260 you know, poison daggers and everything. And that just catches one's attention. Brunhild,

00:09:03.140 I was thinking about this they had we're gonna talk through her story but like she's from a 0.96

00:09:08.600 royal family she didn't have to work and strive like Fredigan did to get into a position of power

00:09:13.880 and so I think part of where I sided with Fredigan a bit is just that underdog quality

00:09:20.860 absolutely and she reminds me so much of the Hercules Mulligan quote from like Hamilton like

00:09:28.080 you knock me down I get the fuck back up again like that's just Fred again yeah but Brynhild 0.99

00:09:34.320 impressive she had different challenges stacked up against her you know it was never a question 1.00

00:09:40.240 of is she allowed to be in this echelon of monarchy but once she was there I mean that's

00:09:45.740 what we're gonna talk about you know what if people haven't read your book yet or haven't

00:09:49.940 listened to my three hours of Fred again podcasts can you remind everybody the place and time that

00:09:56.280 this is, because it's still such a under discussed part of of history. Absolutely. So we are in

00:10:04.600 sixth century Francia, which is, it sounds like obviously, it's going to lead into modern day

00:10:11.440 France, which it does, but it also encompasses all of the low countries, you know, Luxembourg,

00:10:16.140 the Netherlands, large parts of Germany, Switzerland. So we're talking like a huge

00:10:22.400 bulk of continental Europe at this point in time. And we have Brunhild, who is coming from

00:10:29.120 what we now call Spain. It was run by the Visigoths. And she's marrying into this Merovingian 1.00

00:10:35.400 royal family, the Franks, who are commanding this huge empire on the continent that adjoins

00:10:43.320 Visigoths, Spain. Can you explain? Because again, it was so actually it was interesting to read your

00:10:50.040 book after a couple of years and just be like, this all seems like so many of the crises occurred

00:10:55.500 because of this unusual way of dividing up who's in charge of what, instead of the eldest son

00:11:00.060 inherits everything. Can you explain how it was divided, which just seems like the worst plan?

00:11:05.380 It seems like who came up with this. So the Franks don't practice primogeniture, 1.00

00:11:10.460 which means that the oldest son, as you mentioned, doesn't just automatically inherit everything.

00:11:14.720 So they just split it up between whatever male heirs there might be. And those could be

00:11:19.580 legitimate or illegitimate. So as long as you are a son of a king, you have a stake in the kingdom.

00:11:26.580 And, you know, men are dying left and right between the dysentery and the wars, et cetera,

00:11:31.280 et cetera. But kings are having quite a lot of kids in these days. And so most of them end up

00:11:37.180 with like a whole clutch of sons that are then left after the death of their father to sort of

00:11:41.980 duke it out. And the last one standing gets the whole kitten caboodle. It's just, it happens.

00:11:47.740 we're going to go through brunhild's life start to finish but just so many times in that era it's

00:11:53.820 like okay the lands are all divided up then one of those guys dies and then there's this scramble

00:11:57.960 who's going to take it over is it going to be this and then set at one point it's like all children

00:12:02.300 will foreseeing everything it's just a bad plan you know i think about how like we pride ourselves

00:12:10.140 most democratic governments now on having this like peaceful transfer of power and you know when

00:12:16.160 we don't have a peaceful transfer of power that's kind of we're you know all just shocked as we

00:12:21.100 should be but you think about this there was never a peaceful transfer of power like if there was

00:12:26.020 that was remarkable and they were like this is so peaceful we don't even know what to do but most

00:12:30.860 of the time the minute the king died even if you were like a regular poor farmer like you had to

00:12:36.860 batten down the hatches and hunker down and hide because it was the purge like everything was you

00:12:42.500 now, all hell was breaking loose. And, you know, that's one thing if it happens once in your

00:12:46.740 lifetime, but if that is happening like four or five times in your lifetime, and you're just a

00:12:51.600 regular person trying to grow crops and like feed your family, that's incredibly disruptive.

00:12:58.440 Yeah, that's true. I hadn't, I was thinking about, yeah, that ordinary people, because everything,

00:13:03.180 like mostly what's in your book is kind of the actual scheming that's going on. Everybody,

00:13:07.060 it struck me again rereading it just every even a person who appears for one page or half of one

00:13:13.420 page like everyone is just poisoning each other murdering each other like that's the only way to

00:13:19.060 survive so Fred again and Brunhild both did a lot of poisoning and murdering but it's kind of like

00:13:25.380 well if they didn't then they would have been poisoned or murdered that's just what everyone

00:13:28.860 was doing it's remarkable and you know the crazy thing is is there are things that had to be cut

00:13:34.880 out of the book. Like there are, there's more poisoning and murdering, but there was just

00:13:38.400 too much to all, you know, squeeze in there. It was just, I started going through it. I was reading

00:13:44.580 it, an ebook copy just on my phone. And I started taking the screen captures of everything was

00:13:49.840 interesting. And then it started being like every other page. Cause I'm just like, Oh my God,

00:13:53.100 this person did this. Then this person did. It's just, it's unrelenting. And then I think it speaks

00:13:58.140 to the power of Brunhild that she still, she and Fred again, capture the attention as much as they

00:14:04.020 do, even surrounded by so many other major personalities. So she's born in basically

00:14:11.400 modern day Spain, and then she's married. Oh my gosh. Okay. Again, I've never, I read your book

00:14:17.500 as a book. I've not listened to the audio book. My pronunciations, I have no idea.

00:14:22.040 So she's marrying King. How do you say it? I say it's Sigabert, but here's the thing.

00:14:27.600 So for you and for all listeners, even in their lifetimes, there are varying pronunciations of

00:14:32.940 the same name so like if you're in the ballpark it's okay okay like i know how to say all of their

00:14:39.180 names so if that makes you feel better there's no like official pronunciation okay so she marries

00:14:45.260 king sigbert of australia the other day i saw something about australia and i was so much in

00:14:51.940 the world i read it as australia but i just have some notes in front of me honestly it's just sort

00:15:00.060 of like the wikipedia entry to remind me like point to point what happens but it says upon

00:15:04.380 their marriage she converted to catholicism and so christianity is still fairly new it is and there

00:15:11.540 are these different sects so there's an um arian sect and there is what will become catholicism

00:15:19.760 they don't call it that but what's really fascinating is like the arian version and

00:15:24.640 this actually like will crop up later for people who are really into like the reformation or like

00:15:28.880 you know 15th 16th century i did not know this but it does kind of pop up but you know arianism

00:15:35.240 is much more chill with other religions in the fact that it's like jesus is you know a prophet

00:15:43.240 but you know muhammad can also be a prophet and you know so they are open to coexisting with other

00:15:50.700 religions. And they have much more of a, like a global tolerant view. They have this one envoy

00:16:00.940 who's, you know, reported to have said something, and I'm paraphrasing it poorly, but to the effect

00:16:05.900 of like, if you don't believe as we do, that's okay. Like we can coexist and, you know, what

00:16:11.560 will become the Catholics are like, if you don't believe as we do, like, we're going to have to 0.95

00:16:15.140 kill you so it's two interesting worldviews but i think it also kind of foreshadows a lot of

00:16:21.360 the struggle and like the outlook that brunhild has that she's raised with this slightly more

00:16:27.500 tolerant view of religion not quite so rabid can you explain and i don't know if you know

00:16:33.380 so it's interesting so it's called arian but that's different from how we hear arian now 0.66

00:16:38.380 It sounds super scary. So it's R-I-A-N. No Y in there. And it was named after a bishop who 1.00

00:16:49.420 championed it. That's all I know. So there was this bishop and it became Arianism after Bishop

00:16:55.240 Arian. And it's very much the opposite of Nazism in that it's opposite of Nazism.

00:17:01.460 Tolerant and open-minded. Okay. And there's this idea that perhaps like, so as we know,

00:17:07.980 Spain is going to be, you know, conquered and, you know, become Muslim in parts, right? Like 0.99

00:17:13.800 pretty soon. But that that's one of the reasons why it was able to happen is because

00:17:18.980 Arianism and sort of Islam, it wasn't like, oh, these are enemies, but they were like, okay,

00:17:24.340 so you have a different prophet and you want to use this different name, like, okay,

00:17:30.100 that, that it might've been made it a little more palatable to some of the people there.

00:17:35.120 And so she married King Sigbert and this was taken.

00:17:39.740 So his brothers had not married a royal person, which Brunhild was a royal person.

00:17:45.100 So this was taken by the brothers is like, because the brothers, each of them has their own kingdom.

00:17:49.320 And they're just kind of always looking for a reason to fight each other is my impression.

00:17:54.080 And so they're like, he married Brunhild.

00:17:55.980 And then that made the other brothers be like, that's, he's saying he's better than us because he married a royal.

00:18:00.100 absolutely and he has this whole alliance now with visigas spain and if you can visualize this

00:18:06.960 sychefort's in what would be the northeast like quadrant and you know we know where spain is which

00:18:14.280 would be in the southwest so he's basically has now an alliance where he's on either side of his

00:18:19.380 brothers so they were right to be nervous and he served as like aspirations but he's like i've got

00:18:25.760 friends now blocking you on this side. We've got water on some of the other sides and I'm over here.

00:18:31.640 And then one of the brothers, is this probably one of the reasons why, gosh, sorry, these names,

00:18:37.040 I'm just like, I had it in my head when I was reading the book. Is it Chilperic? Yeah. Chilperic

00:18:42.080 is the one. So he was like, okay, well, I'm going to marry Brunhilde's sister then. I'm going to

00:18:46.600 also ally with these people. Yes. And so he's like, you know, I'm going to counterbalance this.

00:18:54.060 like, I want a royal, you know, princess, you have a royal princess. So if I marry her sister,

00:19:00.040 then that kind of knocks on any advantage you have. And that sister is my gosh, Goyce Wintha.

00:19:07.180 Yeah, it's really confusing because their mom's name is Goyce Wintha. And she's the whole

00:19:11.900 character. If we have a minute, I'd love to talk about her. And then she has two daughters,

00:19:16.360 only two daughters, no sons, Grunhild and Galswintha. Galswintha. That's the other thing

00:19:22.980 that gets me is when someone has a child and the name of the child is so close to their own name,

00:19:27.320 but not quite their own name. Yes. And you know what, they would do this thing where they have

00:19:31.020 two part names and they would take like one part for the mom's name and one part from like the

00:19:35.720 dad's name. So like Goy's Wintha is like, well, my daughter, I'll put a Wintha at the end of it.

00:19:40.940 And then I'll get the other part from my husband. So they would like keep mashing these two parts

00:19:48.260 of the names together. But then you end up with a lot of like really similar sounding, really long,

00:19:54.040 complicated names. Like I really want to just, you know, if they didn't all start with C's,

00:19:59.520 I'd be like, can we just give them initials? But no. Yeah. I was just so delighted in your book

00:20:05.020 when someone pops up and his name is Maurice. I was like, I know how to pronounce that. Gregory.

00:20:10.260 Great. Yeah. And there's also those great names that are like Go-Go and Bozo, which I'm like,

00:20:16.160 that was like thank you thank you for making things easy yeah much less letters than usual

00:20:21.780 okay so we've got her brunhild's husband sigibert and then his brother chilperic has married

00:20:29.180 brunhild's sister and then that goes badly because of various reasons but

00:20:37.660 fredigant and that there's something in the marriage agreement for chilperic that said 0.99

00:20:45.840 you're going to marry girls once and one of the things it's like and you will not fuck around with 0.95

00:20:50.100 your servants and which is like not usually in marriage contracts no it's not so this was um 0.98

00:20:57.120 it had raised enough eyebrows and we one can assume that brunhild having married into the

00:21:01.480 family first maybe gave her family back home a heads up like there's this rumor or we know that

00:21:06.920 he has this special relationship with this servant girl and that they made sure to put in there that

00:21:13.920 he would, you know, not have any mistresses, particularly any servant mistresses, that

00:21:19.400 Gaussmantha would be his one true loyal, you know, Christian wife.

00:21:23.600 And the other thing that's interesting is Tilperic, because he was like a lesser brother

00:21:28.400 than Sigbert, in order to score Brunhild's sister, had to promise, like, essentially,

00:21:36.160 you know, Sigbert marries Brunhild, it's kind of a match of equals, and he certainly

00:21:42.120 gives her some cities, which that was like your morning gift. You got a Morgan Gaba, which was

00:21:46.320 like, did the deed after the wedding, you get a city or you get, you know, you get a nice mansion,

00:21:52.020 but he gives to Galswintha a third of his kingdom. Like that's the only way he can make this match.

00:21:59.500 So he says, I'll give her, you know, essentially a third of my kingdom. And it's part of its land

00:22:04.780 that adjoins what will become Spain. So the Spanish King, you know, it's like, okay, like,

00:22:10.960 you're going to give me a third of your kingdom that will go to any of my grandchildren, you know,

00:22:15.340 that you might have with my daughter. Sounds good. But then, okay, so what happens is that

00:22:21.380 Gelswintha is found mysteriously strangled. And like the next day, Chilperic marries Fredegand.

00:22:29.800 And they were married for a very short time, right? They were married for a very short time.

00:22:34.820 And yes, it was exactly three days after the, after her, you know, murder, he marries.

00:22:41.040 So essentially people made jokes, like maybe they were able to use like the food from the

00:22:46.100 funeral for the wedding feast, but you know, that is shockingly fast, shockingly fast.

00:22:53.120 And so like from Brunhild's point of view, or for honestly, anyone's point of view, like

00:22:57.420 he made this deal to marry Gelswintha, giving her all this land.

00:23:00.980 And then seemingly, I mean, you know, who, we don't know what happened, but like, clearly he had Gelswintham murdered so he could marry Fred again. Seems pretty obvious. Like, what the hell? Like, why would he throw that all away? That's crazy.

00:23:18.080 it's absolutely crazy and imagine being brunhilde if we can you know empathize with her a little bit

00:23:25.660 where you're you do have this like great background but you're in this land where you

00:23:29.780 don't speak the native language you can obviously communicate in like latin and you've been married

00:23:35.920 for a very short period of time uh and your sister's been married and you're looking forward

00:23:40.680 to this like kind of great alliance where your sister's going to be in the neighboring kingdom

00:23:44.580 everything's set and then she's murdered you don't know what people around you are saying

00:23:49.760 and you know that had to be incredibly scary and you don't know if you're next like yeah at this

00:23:56.500 point you don't know who is you know conclusively like who killed your sister where are they are

00:24:03.760 they coming from you like and and why and at the same time what makes things even more crazy for

00:24:11.020 Brunhild and also it's probably why Chilperic was able to act is that Brunhild and Galswintha's

00:24:17.500 father has died oh yeah yeah knows that the kingdom is in shambles right now and they're

00:24:24.060 not going to be able to launch a war for a little bit so he's like I've got a couple months because

00:24:28.200 they don't know what's going on you know so it's definitely like this is not an act of passion

00:24:34.140 it seems like it was something that was plotted very carefully because the timing lines up but

00:24:38.760 if you're Brunhild too, normally dad would be the one that's going to send in the army to defend

00:24:43.620 his daughters. And you don't know who's going to be, you know, who's going to be in charge. Is it

00:24:48.620 going to be your dad's faction? And you can rely on these people to kind of come in and back you up,

00:24:52.860 or is somebody else going to come out on top? So essentially you're in a strange land

00:24:57.160 where you don't really know the political landscape and, you know, somebody's gunning

00:25:03.240 for you. I mean, it had to be very terrifying. And she was very young. I mean, we don't know

00:25:07.900 how young but i'm guessing i don't know 18 or something yeah we assume that i think by all of

00:25:13.600 the available evidence and counting back that she's 18 she could have been 19 she could have

00:25:17.500 been 17 but you know she's right around there yeah so i mean like extremely young she hasn't

00:25:22.440 had children yet i don't think because she's only barely gotten married herself 0.97

00:25:26.100 she and then sure she was pregnant when this happened so she's pregnant away from home her

00:25:33.420 dad dies her sister is murdered it's yeah you know right away it's like it's not hard to sympathize

00:25:39.400 with this scary situation she finds herself in and then like war is inevitable i think by him

00:25:47.320 obviously murdering gal swintha and so this is where their two kingdoms chilperic and sigebert

00:25:54.120 go against each other yes yes and um you know essentially brunhild most likely would like some

00:26:01.400 vengeance but there's also this third of chilperic's kingdom that's in the balance because

00:26:08.120 brunhild's like you murdered my sister but those were her lands i'm the heir now oh yeah yeah

00:26:14.420 kingdom and sigmar's like yeah like you can't you can't just negate that land deal so it's clearly

00:26:21.080 we could say it's you know for like these moral reasons but at the heart of everything the franks

00:26:26.380 do it's always land like these people are obsessed with land part of it's like a third of the rival

00:26:32.460 kingdom they're not going to just let it sit there yeah and i think this is where you talk

00:26:37.400 about this in your book but some previous writings about this or i think i would imagine some of the

00:26:42.980 old operas and things are say like you know fredigan was complicit probably in the murder

00:26:48.520 of brunhild's sister and ever since then the two women just hated each other where it's like there

00:26:53.060 there's, there's more to it. I'm sure that was distressing, obviously, but like, they're both 0.92

00:26:57.540 smart political actors in this. They're not just like crazy women having feelings. 0.82

00:27:03.620 Absolutely. And we could also think about how Sigbert and his courts had been waiting to kind

00:27:09.940 of launch an attack on one of his brothers. And this is like the perfect opening. You know, this

00:27:15.940 is, you can imagine what we would, you know, any country would do with this today. Like what you

00:27:22.400 killed the first lady's sister okay we've wanted to invade you we're going it's the perfect reason 0.54

00:27:27.040 so there's another brother we haven't mentioned which is guntram who i always picture i don't

00:27:31.540 know how much older he is but he just seems like old and kind of conservative and like kind of

00:27:37.400 the other twos are just messy and guntram just seems kind of more almost like a father figure

00:27:43.420 sort of he is so like kind of pedantic and later on he kind of cracks me up because he has these

00:27:50.200 things where anytime anything goes wrong or a war doesn't go his way it's never his fault it's not

00:27:54.480 like he's not a great general but he'll say things like if the youth had more religion in their lives

00:28:00.100 these things wouldn't happen so he's very like almost like even when he's 30 he has the mentality

00:28:06.400 of kind of like like you know get off my lawn yeah which is funny it's funny to hear somebody

00:28:11.680 like that in you know the year 500 when you hear people like this now being like oh if teenagers

00:28:17.520 didn't spend as much time on TikTok.

00:28:19.900 It's like exactly that.

00:28:21.620 It's exactly that.

00:28:22.760 It's literally like if they would stop

00:28:24.540 gallivanting around and go to church more,

00:28:27.000 all our problems would be solved.

00:28:28.580 So you've got, it's, I don't know.

00:28:30.020 And that's part of it.

00:28:30.760 Like it feels it's the classic setup of three brothers,

00:28:33.800 like just like in a fairy tale or something.

00:28:35.780 There's kind of this boring older guy.

00:28:37.700 The youngest one is really ambitious

00:28:39.200 and there's the middle one.

00:28:40.560 And, but then in this,

00:28:42.800 like Fredigan and Brunhild both make a name for themselves

00:28:45.380 in the midst of all this chaos.

00:28:47.520 So what does Brunhild, what is her role at this point when the two, when they're at war,

00:28:52.160 Guntram comes in, the boring older brother, to sort of mediate and he gives her the land?

00:28:57.400 Is that what happens?

00:28:59.420 Well, I mean, essentially he joins forces with Sigivert and is like, you know, Chilperic,

00:29:03.400 like you went too far, like you can't be doing this. 0.59

00:29:06.240 And the two brothers, you know, are essentially united and they're encircling like Chilperic's 0.72

00:29:13.440 land and it looks like he's going to lose, that they're going to take him down. 0.97

00:29:17.040 And the deal between the two of them is obviously we're going to split up whatever he has between

00:29:20.520 the two of us.

00:29:22.420 So in general, I don't, when I'm reading history books and I get to the descriptions of battles

00:29:27.280 and things, I'm just like, well, I'm just going to skip several pages until other things.

00:29:31.400 But this is, these battles are more interesting to me because everyone's just kind of like

00:29:34.920 figuring it out as they go along.

00:29:36.360 It's not just like a Napoleonic thing where it's like, oh, I'm just going to use this

00:29:39.860 classic technique or whatever.

00:29:41.540 And also just the weather is crazy.

00:29:43.700 So there's these wild wars happen between them.

00:29:47.040 and the brothers, which ends with Sigebert coming out on top. He gets Paris, I think. 0.62

00:29:53.400 Yeah. And they've essentially, they've, they've kicked, um, you know, Chilperic's on the run 0.93

00:29:57.380 with Fredegand and they've had to retreat to Tournai or Tournai, which is on, you know,

00:30:03.620 in modern day Belgium on the water. It's a port city. I know that should check that.

00:30:10.120 And so he's had to flee and kind of make a run for it and make like a last stand

00:30:15.420 in essentially a bunker in this remote city.

00:30:18.740 So they are like, if you could consider like,

00:30:22.200 you know, if we had like, how complete is this war?

00:30:24.680 Like how mission accomplished are we?

00:30:26.920 We're at like, you know, 95% at this point.

00:30:31.100 So you're mentioning a bunker and I'm like,

00:30:32.420 is this where Fredegand gets the boys with the knives?

00:30:37.160 Yes.

00:30:37.600 So at this point, like Sigbert and Brunhild

00:30:40.540 have marched into Paris. 0.98

00:30:42.120 And Paris, I should say for the Merovingian brothers

00:30:44.760 It's like the city that everybody's supposed to split equally, but they're like, okay, me and Guntram have, you know, we've conquered it.

00:30:52.760 Like we're moving in and, you know, expecting to be crowned like king of all of the Franks.

00:30:59.620 Like that's the plan that, you know, he's won such a decisive victory and his brother's on the run.

00:31:04.940 And yes, Fredegon is giving birth in this bunker in Tournai.

00:31:10.000 And this is when, yes, the poison knives come in.

00:31:12.960 like to remind everybody about those. It's one of my favorite Fredigan moments.

00:31:19.240 It's when she's just given birth. And I think her husband, Chilperic, has just been like,

00:31:22.720 oh my God, what are we doing? We're not doing well. And she's just like, pull yourself together.

00:31:26.500 And she's like, just given birth in a bunker in the middle of a war. And then she gets these two

00:31:30.640 servant boys and convinces them to go on literally a suicide mission because she has read these old

00:31:36.660 books, presumably, and figured out how to get poison on knives, which is like a new thing.

00:31:41.980 like people haven't figured out how to keep but if you've poison on your knife you don't have to

00:31:46.540 be as exacting when you stab yeah yeah get it in somewhere so she's just like immediately

00:31:53.800 postpartum gets these two boys who agree to kill themselves um and they go and they assassinate

00:31:59.760 um Sigbert with these poison knives and suddenly the tides turn for Chilperic and Fredigan

00:32:05.800 yes completely and I mean this is you know this is essentially a victory camp these guys are

00:32:11.760 coming in these boys ostensibly like to pay homage where people are just pouring in to say okay this

00:32:17.980 is our new king and to to crown Sigbert king of everything and that's how they're able to sort of

00:32:24.940 like get close to them and like again they don't need to be successful they just need to get close

00:32:28.780 enough they're taken out it is a suicide mission but they do their job Sigbert falls and Brunhild

00:32:35.400 is waiting in Paris at this point there are kids because this war has gone on a while um you know

00:32:41.360 she's waiting in Paris with her young kids, like, expecting any day for the news to come

00:32:45.820 that Chilperic's been finished off, everything's good, they're king of everything. And instead, 0.92

00:32:53.360 you know, when the messengers come, it's completely, completely opposite. So now,

00:32:58.640 not only has she lost her father, her sister, now she's lost her husband, and she's the mother of

00:33:04.800 these young children, and she's in Paris, and she knows that the opposing army is going to be

00:33:10.940 coming and closing in any moment now and she's got to figure out like what to do because clearly

00:33:17.760 you know she's next well and also her boys right like they would want to get rid of these heirs

00:33:23.440 who would be a threat to take over at this point she's got two daughters and and one son and it's 0.99

00:33:31.240 kind of amazing i think this is where i'm like her you know her ability to sort of scheme both

00:33:37.380 of them but under pressure this is immense pressure you know i mean fredigan's just had

00:33:41.500 this crazy postpartum like borderline psychosis and somehow manages to pull off this assassination

00:33:47.040 and brunhild's just had this shock and it's been like one thing after another and she's got to

00:33:52.000 figure out how to keep her kids safe and you know what she does is she's able to smuggle the boy

00:33:57.960 out of paris you know we don't know how accurate this is but you know one version talks about how

00:34:05.120 she lowers him in a basket out into the river, over into the river Seine, where he's picked up

00:34:11.480 by a rowboat and taken to sea. And then she sends her daughters in other directions and gets them 0.79

00:34:19.320 over the border. And she stays put with all of her wealth. And they're saying this is almost 0.99

00:34:24.620 like something from the animal world, where it's this technique to essentially draw the predator

00:34:29.380 her towards you while your offspring have this chance to get away. Yeah. Well, and part of the

00:34:36.120 thing about her wealth was there with her. It's she kind of had to stay because if it was going

00:34:40.880 to be right, like she sort of stayed there to lure them in, but also because how is she going to

00:34:46.980 transport that? Like it would be stolen. Right. I mean, so there is that where it's, you know,

00:34:52.220 that's the problem is they don't have cards or caches. It's like large amounts of, you know,

00:34:57.540 heavy gold and booty and treasure and giant plates and chalices so you need to either we do have

00:35:06.100 instances where we have like widows who are able to find people with a lot of horses and presumably

00:35:11.080 a lot of chunks and pack it up in the dead of night and like go fast but that was not going to 0.99

00:35:15.040 happen or she might have been able to pull it off but she had the kids to worry about too well and

00:35:20.780 that's the thing so like what fredigan did like they're both in shitty awful situations fredigan

00:35:25.640 it's flashier and that's where i'm just like oh like you know having a baby convince these boys

00:35:31.660 to like do this stabbing but brunhild like it's and that's the thing like fredigan is flashier

00:35:35.840 but brunhild is no less impressive what she pulled off like getting these kids free staying

00:35:40.360 there it must have been terrifying and then what she would have probably anticipated would happen 0.99

00:35:46.540 is that she would be either killed or sent to a nunnery which is kind of like where all the queens

00:35:52.020 nobody knew what to do with were sent, which becomes a thing because it turns out they're

00:35:55.520 all in the same nunnery. But that's what happens, right? Is this the point where she's sent off to

00:36:01.520 the nunnery? She is sent off to the nunnery. I'm just laughing because I'm just thinking of this,

00:36:05.840 like, did the guys not put it together? Like if we keep sending them all to the same spot,

00:36:10.440 like they might talk, they might. And they do. But this is where someone comes into the story.

00:36:16.580 So Merovich, how do you pronounce that?

00:36:20.160 I say Merovich, but again, we can be very fluid with the pronunciation.

00:36:25.340 So this is, can you explain who he is?

00:36:29.060 Sure.

00:36:29.780 So Chilperic had a first wife that he got rid of for Fredegund.

00:36:36.520 And then, although he, you know, probably didn't marry Fredegund, and then sets Fredegund

00:36:41.920 aside to marry Brunhild's sister.

00:36:44.180 but this first wife her name is on a ver if we want to like confuse things with names more but

00:36:49.660 she has had sons so that's the other puzzling thing like why chill peric would do this like

00:36:55.000 here's this woman she's giving him sons everything's good and he's just you know no but he has 0.95

00:37:00.960 sent her to the same she's at the same convent as that brunhild will end up with and she happens to 0.87

00:37:09.020 have a son of marriageable age, not that he's slightly younger than Brunel, but Brunel's still 0.99

00:37:14.620 young, you know, um, so a couple of years younger and the two women get to talking. And one solution

00:37:21.740 is, well, you could marry my, my son. You're, you know, you're, I guess, technically your nephew by

00:37:28.500 marriage and you could have a secret marriage and you could launch a rebellion against Chilperic

00:37:34.760 because now we have, you know, another son who might, might want this, this throne.

00:37:41.560 So I think that's also, so I'm like, so you've gotten the kids out, then you're captive,

00:37:45.560 and then you're going to plot a secret marriage, and then you're going to plot a rebellion,

00:37:52.400 you know, as one does. This is where, like, what we were just saying, like,

00:37:57.860 the fact that you're sending all these discarded queens who are all really smart,

00:38:02.520 and really bent on revenge to the same place it's like this is how i don't know in batman or

00:38:09.880 something it's like why would you send all the villains to the same prison like of course they're

00:38:13.700 going to come up with a plan together so they come up with this plan that they're going to

00:38:17.000 marry brunhild who's now a widow to meravec which happens secretly by this bishop this was something

00:38:27.680 else when i was rereading this story i was like why do i recognize pretext to tus i'm like this

00:38:32.660 is a name and i'm like oh that's the guy who fred again later will murder in church and now

00:38:38.140 yeah like why there's a bit of a grudge there yeah so this is so pretext to tus um and part

00:38:44.840 of the reason why he's doing this is because brunhilde i think it's with her money she's 0.60

00:38:48.720 paying lots of people nobles to support her because she has all this money yes she has that

00:38:54.840 money that she's kind of left behind and um she's kind of handed it off to the bishop to you know

00:39:02.140 take care of in her stead and he's he's organizing things um on her behalf and the idea is that 0.75

00:39:11.460 they're going to launch this huge rebellion and merovec is one of his you know he's chilperic

00:39:17.620 is using him as a general so i should mention that he's like a son that's in good he's one of

00:39:22.840 Fredigan's stepson. She doesn't really like stepsons. But he at this point, you know,

00:39:26.500 most of the fathers, if you have a son, and he gets to a certain age, you put him in charge of

00:39:29.980 an army. So Merifex got his own army, he's been helping his father, you know, fight what was

00:39:36.460 Sigurbert's army. But now they're saying, well, how about you go rogue, and you fight against

00:39:41.920 your father? And he's like, okay, and you're part of that might also be like, well, Fredigan's

00:39:47.360 in the picture. She has sons that she's going to want to put on, you know, the throne. So this

00:39:55.620 might be my one chance to kind of get her out of the way. Otherwise, I'm just always going to be

00:40:00.660 this kind of second rate stepson slash general. So he has, you know, something at stake as well.

00:40:07.660 And then they're discovered. So you're like, like, it's crazy. It's like this rebellion is

00:40:13.600 discovered. They managed to play it off. They convinced Chilperic, I don't know how, that this

00:40:19.340 is a love match, that this has nothing to do with rebellion, but they're just, you know, it's so

00:40:23.700 smitten, like Marovec was just so smitten by her, he just couldn't help himself. And they just had

00:40:29.440 to get married. And he's like, okay, I'm a little skeptical of this. I'm going to separate you guys.

00:40:37.640 I'll separate you because I don't want you to be married. But he's buying the story. And then

00:40:43.220 you know there's so many like events I don't want to necessarily drag everyone down into the nitty

00:40:48.520 gritty but at some point Chilperic realizes like oh this is a whole plan like even though you're

00:40:53.600 separated like this is a whole thing where this marriage is really the pretext for you guys to

00:40:59.080 take me out and when he realizes that things don't end well for Marovec but they end up you know

00:41:05.640 Brunhild manages to yet again turn this to her advantage this is well okay can you walk us through

00:41:13.120 or walk me through because i was just like did i miss a paragraph how did because brunhild was

00:41:17.780 sent to this nunnery she did this scheme like she married meravec and then it ends with her going

00:41:23.480 back to austrasia and she's like the regent now yeah it's like essentially chelperic separates

00:41:32.740 them and i don't even know what he's thinking at this point and he gives her choice and he's like

00:41:37.760 you can stand by Maravac or you can go home.

00:41:42.120 Cause at this point there's,

00:41:43.260 she's enough of a figure.

00:41:44.380 He can't kill like both sisters and Spain has gotten its act together.

00:41:48.680 He's like,

00:41:49.520 you can go home and you can choose your children.

00:41:52.280 I'll reunite you with your children and you go home.

00:41:55.540 And she goes,

00:41:56.680 okay.

00:41:57.340 And he's so relieved that she'll leave that she's like,

00:42:00.360 can I have my,

00:42:01.360 all of my wealth too?

00:42:02.620 Can I have that?

00:42:03.780 And he says,

00:42:05.100 are you leaving?

00:42:05.600 And she says,

00:42:06.240 yes.

00:42:06.440 And he says,

00:42:07.120 okay.

00:42:07.760 Yeah. She can, she can have all of her wealth. Just, just, just go. He's just so happy to be 1.00

00:42:12.500 rid of her. It's just like, I would have expected him to be like, I'm going to keep you in this

00:42:19.280 nunnery. Maybe there's like a little overconfidence there, right? He's just one. He's like the king

00:42:25.400 of everything. What's this woman going to do? Yeah. Just got these young kids. And so he sends 1.00

00:42:32.000 her back. She's reunited with her kids. She has all this money. And even though she said she's

00:42:37.240 going to leave Marovec, she doesn't

00:42:39.360 desert him. She's spending all this

00:42:41.260 time sending 1.00

00:42:43.000 raiding parties to try to rescue

00:42:45.440 him. At some point, he's hiding

00:42:47.500 even in Austrasia. He manages

00:42:49.260 to escape. She helps him escape from

00:42:51.340 his father. She keeps

00:42:53.360 him hidden with an ally of hers.

00:42:55.600 She's bankrolling his

00:42:57.300 subsequent attempts to

00:42:59.420 rebel and

00:43:01.080 get rid of his father.

00:43:04.060 And at one point, things

00:43:05.280 do end badly with Marovec.

00:43:07.240 exit, you know, kind of stage left Marovic.

00:43:10.420 But at this point, Brunhild has somehow managed 0.54

00:43:13.960 to not only, like, wiggle her way back in,

00:43:17.420 but she's like, okay, but now I'm regent for my young son. 0.79

00:43:20.980 So I'll just rule here.

00:43:23.540 And the Austrasian nobles are like, okay.

00:43:28.760 She must have been, like, just thinking,

00:43:31.580 like, looking at the sequence of events.

00:43:33.360 so smart but also so making herself seem non-threatening to get these men to agree to

00:43:42.680 give her all these things right yes absolutely and you know the other thing that one thing we're 0.59

00:43:49.000 going to see um throughout brunhild's career that i think is just something she has a talent for 0.98

00:43:55.200 she's incredibly loyal and from the minute she arrives in sigebert's court as a new bride she

00:44:01.180 builds the circle around her you know of these like young ambitious but also like they're real

00:44:07.180 intellectuals you know they're kind of like poets and and thinkers and but also some like generals

00:44:15.780 and whatever was the nature of that you know relationship she must have had like this incredible

00:44:21.120 force of personality but these men are loyal to her to the end of her life and she's very loyal

00:44:26.560 to them so like she's able the people who she has in her corner believe that she will go kind of to

00:44:35.140 the ends of the earth in their defense and they behave similarly towards her so throughout this

00:44:41.440 she would not have been able to pull this off if those allies if she hadn't been so good at making

00:44:45.520 alliances when she first landed in the strange kingdom because through all of this sort of all

00:44:51.480 these twists and turns and crazy, you know, machinations. She has these men behind the

00:45:00.460 scene that she's able to like send money to her or say, fund this here, fund this there,

00:45:06.040 help me get across the border, help hide Marovec here. So it's really kind of a testament, I think,

00:45:12.260 and we'll see this later, particularly with women, but to her ability to build relationships and to 0.79

00:45:17.640 kind of pull everybody in and look out for everybody. And they become this like core group 0.91

00:45:22.220 that really lasts for like 40, 50 years. It's pretty amazing. That's so impressive to me,

00:45:28.080 just especially in the context of earlier this year, I did a deep dive into Mary, Queen of Scots.

00:45:33.120 And one of the things when she got to Scotland, she never had that. No one ever was there.

00:45:39.660 Like she was similarly, like she came from far away and then it's like, here's this court, but

00:45:43.820 And not having that support, that was a core reason why she didn't succeed as Queen of Scots. So Brunhild had that. So it's like, on the one hand, there were people there who she could count on, and that speaks well of them, but it also speaks well of Brunhild and her ability.

00:45:59.260 Like Mary, Queen of Scots, couldn't read the room, you know, when she first got there.

00:46:02.680 She didn't know how the courtly stuff was playing out, but Brunhild clearly could kind

00:46:08.420 of see what the factions were, who was like a young, ambitious, smart person who it'll

00:46:12.240 make sense to ally with.

00:46:15.120 And her mother was a famed diplomat.

00:46:18.860 Hopefully, like, we'll circle back to her. 0.95

00:46:21.220 But I think that Brunhild had the advantage of sort of learning on her mother's knee,

00:46:25.260 of seeing her kind of pull together her father became king as sort of a consensus candidate

00:46:31.320 her mother was behind the scenes sort of whipping up the votes so to speak and so she learned and

00:46:37.240 saw firsthand kind of how the sausage gets made politically and had that advantage going in to

00:46:43.100 know okay this is how you sort of wheel and deal in the back room and how you can forge these

00:46:47.500 relationships that are going to be really helpful but I don't think a lot of queens yeah no yeah

00:46:53.080 no absolutely and that's um so this is like again i was looking at these notes which again is from 0.86

00:46:59.420 wikipedia but it says not being a fighter she was primarily an administrative reformer so she was

00:47:06.160 in terms of politics like fredegand i always think about is just like leading armies and 0.98

00:47:11.180 scheming and manipulating and that's what she needed to do where she was but brunhild came in

00:47:16.020 with this political savvy and know-how and that is i think one of the big differences between the

00:47:22.380 two of them yes and also we have to keep in mind brunhild like for example there's this time when

00:47:27.760 one of these allies who helped her out with merovec and helped her helped her become regent

00:47:32.640 he has luckily one of the easier names duke wolf i was like oh whenever i saw that can i tell you

00:47:37.560 i don't know if you know at the end of um law and order it's always like executive producer

00:47:41.300 dick wolf and so whenever i read in your book i'm just like executive producer dick wolf

00:47:45.960 well executive producer duke wolf yeah um but he's he's pretty amazing but there's this one

00:47:54.220 point where he's being ambushed by like this rival noble faction and you know he's outnumbered and

00:48:01.320 brunhild arms herself you know the sources are very specific and clear about this and puts you

00:48:08.840 know with the full-on like as a man they say and with the sword and everything and goes out and

00:48:14.100 stands in between the two armies so puts her actual physical body on the line and if you kind

00:48:22.320 of imagine what that's like particularly when these men are on horseback and they're on to the

00:48:27.480 teeth and they have throwing axes and you know they're you know there's got to be some psychopaths

00:48:33.760 in the bunch because this is what they do for a living is just murder you know but she goes out 1.00

00:48:38.660 on the field and stands in front of and defends her allies. So we also see that that sends a 1.00

00:48:45.900 message to every other ally where they see, well, Duke Wolf did this for her, but she will go to

00:48:52.140 the mat for him. So that risk she took not only helped defend her ally, but I think also sent a

00:48:58.180 message that like, when we have an alliance, I'm good for it. I'm not, I'm not going to turn my

00:49:03.700 back on you. That just sort of like the medieval PR of that, you know, just that instinctive

00:49:11.520 knowledge that like by doing this, it's going to reverberate. People are going to say that I did

00:49:15.840 this. They'll see me doing this. And that will send a message. This is how loyal I am. This is

00:49:20.200 why it's a good, if I'm on your side, you have to stick with me. That was the part I, this was a

00:49:26.480 while ago, but one of the podcast listeners was reading your book and then their daughter was

00:49:31.720 like wanted to hear it as a bedtime story and i think that was the part that they read

00:49:35.560 you know that's the most child friendly portion of their story just hearing about this brave woman

00:49:42.980 going out and in implementing peace really by just standing there yeah but anyway back to the

00:49:49.200 murders so um so what happened next oh my gosh so the thing with so she convinced

00:49:58.720 guntram so guntram didn't have children question mark no and you know he had had them this is part 0.64

00:50:07.440 of the reason he's such a stick the mud and when he was younger he had like this series of like 0.80

00:50:11.440 wives and mistresses who all fight and one poisons the other's kids and his kids died i 0.98

00:50:16.580 think he got religion and was like wow you know i better i better shape up because that went badly

00:50:22.120 so i'm swearing off you know women and wine and i'm just gonna go to church and lecture other

00:50:27.520 people so he has he had children at one point and he has a daughter i should say um but you know

00:50:34.320 women don't always count for much and that and guntram is old school he's you know not seeing

00:50:39.220 his daughter as his heir so he it's odd to say they have no children like he has no male children

00:50:44.460 no surviving male children and he you know brunhild manages to get him to agree that he will make her

00:50:53.000 son, his heir. So when he dies, her son will inherit both kingdoms. Two out of three.

00:51:01.140 Which is amazing. We hear later on how Fredegand kind of manipulates Guntram by being like,

00:51:08.580 oh no, I'm just a poor woman. Like, won't some man help me? And then she gets what she wants.

00:51:13.140 So I have to imagine Brunhild is doing, to get Guntram to do what she wants,

00:51:17.220 she'd have to play up like, oh, I just, if only a man would adopt my son as his heir, like to

00:51:24.120 convince him. Yes. And you were so good to his brother and it would mean so much to my dead

00:51:28.640 husband. Like whatever shall I do? Absolutely. But this is a major, like in this longstanding,

00:51:34.960 now years long battle between these brothers and these kingdoms, like this is major for Brunhild to

00:51:40.460 have her son, the one who she, who escaped in the basket out the window down the river or whatever

00:51:46.020 named as the heir to two kingdoms is massive yeah huge absolutely and kind of an act of war

00:51:54.380 one might say one yes certainly one could say that would be perceived that way yeah so this is

00:52:02.740 like she's doing this is it's like the stealthy like fredigand is like i don't know it's just like

00:52:08.900 flashy like assassinations and brunhild is just kind of like so clever and so smart but low-key

00:52:14.920 but just as devastating in her own way so then she has so her daughter in gunda was married to

00:52:23.880 a visigothic prince which connects her kingdom with her homeland yeah so here's where i think

00:52:32.180 brunhild's mother and and kind of comes in and brunhild's ability we talked about like her

00:52:37.920 forming these loyal networks but her networks with other women are what i think really set her

00:52:43.880 apart as as a monarch and why this is really fascinating is if we talk about her mother

00:52:51.440 Goyce Wintha for a moment please you've been wanting to this whole time I have have I I'm

00:52:55.480 like let me just keep bringing it back to Goyce Wintha yeah so yes I'm gonna do a little arm

00:53:01.740 twisting here but what's fabulous about Goyce Wintha is that she has been her husband the king's

00:53:08.820 number one advisor. And she has two daughters and the daughters are raised to be the heirs.

00:53:14.420 There are no male children. And they're like, well, we're going to train them up to be the

00:53:18.240 heirs. And then there's a point where her husband has died and she marries the next king, his

00:53:24.840 successor. And what's amazing about this is she's menopausal. She's not having any more kids. He

00:53:29.720 doesn't marry her to have heirs. And in fact, he has sons already from a previous marriage,

00:53:34.740 woman who's died so what he's marrying her for is you know her political acumen like to you know 0.92

00:53:41.820 bring the kingdoms together and she has the stepsons and she's able to turn one of the 0.99

00:53:48.300 stepsons against his father and she's like we're going to split what is spain in half and have our 0.56

00:53:55.360 own kingdom and i'm going to marry my granddaughter brunheld's you know daughter to him so there's

00:54:03.400 like three generations of women. We've got Brunhild, Brunhild's mother, and Brunhild's

00:54:08.340 daughter that are all working together. And their plan is that they're going to have this portion

00:54:13.000 of Spain. And then the lands that were, that Chilperic had given to Galswintha, and then she

00:54:21.560 died. And now Brunhild is claimed as her own. Those are going to be the lands. And they're

00:54:25.960 envisioning like this, like basically forming their own kingdom, like these three women. And

00:54:31.600 I think that that is just, you think of just, I mean, that's beyond like cheeky, like that's

00:54:38.540 kind of revolutionary, right? I mean, these women who are ready to not just work behind the scenes

00:54:44.860 or step in as regents, but are kind of conceiving of having their own kingdoms and they're going to

00:54:49.320 connect them through the women. And what's fascinating too, is even when that falls apart,

00:54:56.720 Koizwintha is able to get to the next stepson. And she's like revolted against her husband, 0.99

00:55:04.580 like had armed revolt against her husband. Like now this is the second time, you know,

00:55:09.380 she has a second try with the next stepson. And eventually, you know, that one fails as well.

00:55:16.060 And she ends up in jail as an old woman or sent to a convent. And then we hear that it sounds like

00:55:22.020 she commits suicide from the sources. They're a little unclear. But you imagine, I think that's

00:55:27.920 so telling about kind of who Brunhild is to imagine this woman as her mother that's married to two

00:55:33.200 kings leads two rebellions. And then rather than sit around in a convent is like, that's enough,

00:55:40.360 I'm out. Well, this makes me think about, this is skipping ahead, but like, eventually, once

00:55:45.900 Brunhild and Fredigan are both dead, and then the men who are left behind are like, no one can ever

00:55:50.900 know women were this powerful ever because then they'll know that it's possible yeah but that's

00:55:58.040 like that like brunhild saw her mother do this so she knew it was possible you know she knew

00:56:02.260 like if people don't see that and i don't just mean being a queen in oldie times but like if

00:56:09.100 you don't see someone doing a thing you don't know you can do it so absolutely and you know

00:56:14.000 what if brunhild's daughter unfortunately dies um you know in the in a plague um but you know

00:56:20.720 had she survived or we think about how many other you know like repercussions we have but even

00:56:27.140 brunhild we know like she forms relationships with her daughter-in-law and her niece and so

00:56:32.640 she's constantly the women i think what's so heartening is they don't see themselves as

00:56:37.140 isolated actors like they see it as completely possible that they can band together and affect

00:56:43.120 change and that they can rule with one another's help and that's what is that's what kind of really

00:56:50.540 blew my mind when I was doing the research to see the evidence of that. There's this great treaty

00:56:56.800 that'll come along a little later, but the Treaty of Andalot, where Brunhild signing it as an equal

00:57:01.840 party to men, but a third of that treaty is devoted to women. And it's her saying, in order to sign

00:57:07.200 this, you have to promise me, my daughter-in-law, my niece, that we keep our property. You can never

00:57:14.120 put us in a convent. You can't tell us what to do. And our heirs can't be told what to do with

00:57:20.020 their property so essentially carving out sort of an independent path not just for themselves but

00:57:26.200 for the next generation that they have that foresight a lot of people are in it for themselves

00:57:29.900 or for the immediate but that they're definitely thinking long term well and this is where again

00:57:35.660 like your book is called the dark queens it's about two different people but i think this is a

00:57:39.360 major difference between just the more we're talking the more like i see how fredigan and

00:57:46.200 Brunhild are so different as people. But Fredigan, you never hear about her siding with women. And 0.98

00:57:52.580 I mean, maybe there weren't people around there. She didn't have the familial connections because

00:57:55.560 she was enslaved and stuff. Well, and I think too, I mean, some of it could just be, the sources

00:58:00.860 might be a little biased just because of what survived and what hasn't. So, you know, we have

00:58:04.900 to assume that Fredigan is also able to pull off some of what she pulls off, whether that's

00:58:10.340 catching the king's eye or whatever. You'd have to have female servants help you. You know, 1.00

00:58:14.780 you have to have people say he's going to be here at this time or happen. And she obviously had a

00:58:20.560 lot of male servants who were willing to go on suicide missions for her. But, you know, there

00:58:24.840 certainly are have to be other women. And we know a few like a few more minor instances. So we don't 1.00

00:58:31.640 we don't know just because she's not titled. And in Brunhild's case, you know, the women that she 1.00

00:58:37.320 is kind of colluding with happened to be more illustrious, you know, happened to be like

00:58:43.700 princesses or or queens or you know kind of royal cousins so there's just happens to be more of a

00:58:50.200 royal record but i do think this is pretty unique and the fact too that like when she's corresponding

00:58:56.820 she'll correspond to you know the female regent of byzantium or she's constantly forming these

00:59:04.060 networks with like a former mother-in-law with radigand so with like multiple generations of

00:59:09.640 women and so it's not just younger women for example they're reaching out she really has

00:59:14.200 this seems that she has a hand or a kind of a concept of what women can do if they

00:59:19.520 work together and we see that in the convent when she works with you know kind of the

00:59:24.620 the former ex-queen the first wives club yeah first but we see it over and over again and I

00:59:30.620 think that was one thing that has really been written out of history and to see that evidence

00:59:37.160 is it's just really it's heartening it also makes me so angry that we've been sort of robbed of that

00:59:44.960 idea that there was not just a single powerful woman or a pair of powerful female rivals but

00:59:52.420 there were these kind of entire groups of women it also makes you kind of understand how centuries

00:59:57.740 later people will be so terrified of these like cabals of like women of witches or whatever because

01:00:02.880 you know, there is this precedent for groups of women being able to affect real change. 0.54

01:00:09.280 That's so, I can only imagine when you're researching to start putting this all together 0.80

01:00:13.240 and realize this is what was going on. Cause that's, I've covered so many queens and royal

01:00:18.660 women on my podcast and I can't remember anything like this. Like the closest I can think of is

01:00:23.340 maybe Catherine de Medici. I know that she was pen pals with like people in the Ottoman Empire

01:00:28.980 and things like that but and she had her kind of flying squadron of lady spies but which is

01:00:35.060 awesome which this kind of reminds me of a bit and now we're just going to take a break for a

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01:02:16.820 Hi, I'm Whitney.

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01:03:47.700 and we're back and it also feels very modern in a way and that's what's funny because i think

01:03:54.900 there's this overall impression that things used to be bad for women and they've been getting better

01:03:59.800 steadily ever since which is false because things have been good and bad and up and down and

01:04:04.200 whatever but this is like the year whatever 550 or something and like this is happening and she's

01:04:10.620 like anyway this is why your book is so important and i'm glad that you were able to read these

01:04:16.740 ancient manuscripts in, I'm sure, terrible handwriting.

01:04:23.580 Some of the scribes had great handwriting, but yeah, others, not so much.

01:04:27.980 Yeah, that's what I'm appreciative to. I mean, to anyone, like to you specifically for this,

01:04:32.280 but to anyone, the historians who do this stuff, so I can read a nice typeset book

01:04:36.660 that summarizes what these ancient documents said. Okay, so Chilperic dies. Wait, no. Yes.

01:04:44.320 no wait sorry the names are confusing to me her son are you talking about brunhild's son

01:04:51.120 childebert yes maybe yeah and let me think so brunhild is there's this thing she tries to do

01:04:59.240 this thing marrying her daughter that doesn't work she ruled ostraza until childebert came of

01:05:03.940 age but then she kind of kept on ruling yes that was what's amazing is like she has there's a royal

01:05:10.920 pair that goes on barges and her son is married we should add this okay he's he's like married

01:05:15.500 with kids um and she's i we don't know how her daughter-in-law feels about her but i mean she

01:05:22.120 looks out for her daughter-in-law her daughter-in-law in fact helps her foil a coup so there's

01:05:26.840 obviously even if they hate each other personally like some loyalty there they look out for one

01:05:31.180 another but her daughter-in-law like when there's the royal pair it's mother and son

01:05:35.680 like like his wife doesn't appear it's the two of them and one fabulous tidbit i i found was that

01:05:43.980 when people were executed or imprisoned for forgery it was always brunholtz signature and seal and not

01:05:52.580 her son's so even when they're supposedly co-rulers and they signed everything together

01:05:57.540 it was like both of their names oftentimes you know hers was first but that people it kind of

01:06:03.560 tells you something if the criminals know, like, well, you really need to learn how to forge

01:06:07.360 mom's, you know, mom's signature, not the, you know, not the king's signature, like where the

01:06:13.620 power lies. This is also very Catherine de' Medici coded because she, her three of her adult sons

01:06:22.480 were the king, but kind of, she was really in charge. Kind of not, yeah. Technically, maybe,

01:06:28.280 yeah so this is where um okay so it seems like in this era in these kingdoms things can never

01:06:38.400 just be okay for any long period of time eventually it's like okay things are good

01:06:42.560 someone's gonna be like are they though yeah you just got like the harvest in and you were 0.83

01:06:49.840 gonna relax and take a nap nope so this is where um some of the dukes conspired to assassinate her

01:06:56.400 son, but the plot was discovered. And this is where they went to join Guntram. Is that right?

01:07:04.660 Yeah. I mean, I would say that the factions are incredibly kind of complicated in terms of

01:07:10.540 the different factions at court and Brunhild's, some of her allies end up being forced out into

01:07:16.880 Guntram's territory in order to sort of keep the peace or to, you know, be, keep their heads,

01:07:23.180 i guess attached um where she can't guarantee their safety you know things have things have 0.98

01:07:28.220 gotten that kind of hairy but that duke's revolt in some ways is foiled by her by her daughter-in-law

01:07:35.220 and that's like a great a great story how her daughter-in-law i mean you think of

01:07:40.880 the loyalty is recovering from a horrific childbirth and it seems as though the baby has

01:07:48.000 died and she's been unconscious or injured so it seems like there's been like a lot of blood

01:07:53.060 loss or it's not really clear but people presume that she's unconscious and she overhears something

01:07:59.080 they're not as careful and she drags her bleeding self from the bed it says you know that she can't

01:08:04.020 walk but to her mother-in-law to say look like this is going down like there's this there's this 0.64

01:08:09.780 attempt going to be this attempt on your life and my husband's life and she's able to stop it

01:08:17.540 that's like days of our lives you know right there's no way like your editor would say this 0.98

01:08:25.000 is come on this is ridiculous that's why it's so over the top and kind of ridiculous that i know 0.54

01:08:31.620 you're going over the chronicles you'd have to be like this this can't be right and like kind of 0.96

01:08:36.460 over it and over it because it's it is like a soap opera it's ridiculous it's i don't know it

01:08:43.000 just feels like the next thing that's going to happen is like someone's long lost twin comes in

01:08:46.640 and then they switch place like to be everyone thinks you're unconscious but you overhear anyway

01:08:51.240 like this is what I mean when I was reading it and I was just like screen capture every page I'm

01:08:55.880 like this is a great story this is a great story I'm like every like I want to gift to you as a

01:09:00.140 writer to be able to be the one who writes this down because yeah you don't have to make it up

01:09:04.780 it's there there but you're right an editor would be like let's tone this down like there's a little

01:09:11.880 too much like a little too many of these passages and we should mention too throughout this time

01:09:16.560 like fredigan is sending assassins constantly constantly and there's this one fabulous

01:09:22.640 scene where i mean brunhild sends them back like with their like like they're a package that you

01:09:31.940 know she like sometimes she cuts off their hands but she sends them back to fredigan i think it's

01:09:37.080 almost this like nice try yeah like do better next time that was where this is the era where

01:09:44.620 I just think of like the Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote, where it's just like trying and trying and trying.

01:09:50.460 But Brunhild's just like, no, it's not going to happen.

01:09:54.000 And Fred again is like, this is my one move, sending boys with poison knives.

01:09:59.380 I don't have a plan B.

01:10:01.640 Okay, so then we have the, or did we already get to this?

01:10:04.360 So the Pact of Andalot, which secured the succession.

01:10:08.440 We talked about that.

01:10:10.160 Anyway, so then Guntram died and Brunhild's son, Childebert, succeeds to the kingdom,

01:10:16.280 immediately making war on Fredigan's son, who is overseeing Neustria.

01:10:22.880 So this is sort of like we're already, and your book gets into the story itself.

01:10:26.520 It's just like we're getting into sons and we're into grandsons and we're into great

01:10:29.540 grandsons.

01:10:30.100 And that's where they start naming people after previous people.

01:10:32.740 And my little brain, how did you even write it, honestly?

01:10:36.440 You know, it was really hard.

01:10:37.420 And I do know there was one point where I talked to my editor.

01:10:39.700 I was like, can we just give them nicknames?

01:10:41.660 And I was like, no.

01:10:43.260 But, you know, I do think if this is, if anybody ever does this, like fiction or whatever, like, that would be nice.

01:10:51.520 There's a point, too, where, like, all of the grandkids have the same, their names all start with Thudabur.

01:11:00.780 And even the girl.

01:11:02.820 So it was like, are you kidding me?

01:11:04.900 can you guys just can we just call them like t-bird and you know but um that seemed a little

01:11:12.500 too like a little too um contemporary but well this is like in um the on tv the spanish princess

01:11:20.600 which is based on the philippa gregory book you've got margaret beaufort and then you have

01:11:25.020 margaret pole and she's maggie and then you have margaret tudor and she's meg like they had to

01:11:30.640 like yeah right but like i was like what how what is the you know can you make thudebert like teddy

01:11:36.640 that would be lovely it would have made things so much easier yeah so the names um and i'm gonna

01:11:41.720 say honestly whoever wrote this wikipedia confused some of these names um when i'm trying to read

01:11:46.760 this but so we're we're at war it's like fredigand is kind of regent for her son brunhild is regent

01:11:55.200 for her son and now it's their sons are going to war but really it's the two women are kind of

01:11:59.920 in charge of both places so war yet again let's see childebert brunhild's son dies age 26 i think

01:12:09.340 in battle no actually so this is one of those mysterious deaths like every time you're like

01:12:15.760 okay we've had sort of a peaceful transfer of power like guntram's died of old age i mean that's

01:12:22.560 kind of a rarity and there's a will and it's very clear brunhild's son takes over everybody's like

01:12:28.820 relief, right? Nope. So he dies and his wife dies, but it seems as though it's natural causes. And 0.75

01:12:37.160 the reason for that is twofold. It's not in battle. It's very sudden. The fact that his wife

01:12:43.380 dies as well is significant, but also no one, we do have a lot from this time period. There's not

01:12:51.040 a gap in the records and no one mentions it. They just say that he died, but because we have such

01:12:57.500 this kind of history and habit of turning any sort of mysterious death into a rallying cry for

01:13:03.900 potential war and invasion. You know, this person was assassinated. It seems as though, I mean,

01:13:09.320 there was a hint of poison or this or that, that they would have made the most of that. That would

01:13:14.280 have really helped sort of the propaganda and public relations campaign. But for all intents

01:13:20.520 and purposes, it's pretty interesting. It's like Anne Childebert died, but essentially everything

01:13:26.100 stayed the same because brunhild was in charge you know and now brunhild's back in charge as

01:13:31.500 official regent for her grandkids now yeah yeah really hasn't been um that big of a of a shake-up

01:13:40.000 it's just the the name of the guy that she's representing has has changed yeah so this is

01:13:45.840 her grandson's thudiburt so thudiburt became king of austrasia and thuderek her other grandson

01:13:52.580 and King of Burgundy. And these are the ones with identical looking names.

01:13:56.920 Yes.

01:13:58.080 This is what it says here. Peace would elude the Franks for many years more. 0.93

01:14:03.960 That's a bit of an understatement. 0.70

01:14:06.380 I would say that's the permanent state of things. Okay, so what happens here? So her elder grandson,

01:14:13.260 Thudebert, she was staying at his court and he exiled her. Why did he do that?

01:14:18.580 so essentially there's a lot of factions um there's her kind of core group and then there's

01:14:24.980 this more sort of they're fundamentalist and there's also like this group that is based in

01:14:30.200 what we would now call kind of switzerland that really are i hate to use like modern terms but

01:14:35.820 they're very close to what we would consider now like the libertarians they don't want to pay taxes

01:14:39.900 for the people in the city they don't understand why they should like contribute to the common

01:14:43.920 defense why you know why should they pay for someone's road over here why do they have to

01:14:52.080 pay taxes at all and so they're essentially kind of like pushing back pushing back pushing back

01:14:58.560 and they're able to sort of get their claws into her oldest sort of grandson and so she leaves

01:15:06.700 you know on I mean it's not great terms but and goes south goes into Gundrum's kingdom

01:15:13.660 and decides she's going to kind of set up shop there favoring the younger grandson well and

01:15:19.280 this is where there are stories that are not true that are like she was found out wandering

01:15:23.680 yeah and you know what she does is she goes to the city that's called a ton and she goes on this

01:15:30.060 huge building spree like she's on an infrastructure project where she's like okay I'm going to repair

01:15:34.660 of the roads and she wants to build herself this like incredible city and there's still

01:15:40.180 ruins today but of like the churches and the hospitals and the things that she starts building

01:15:44.660 so she's not kind of cast out and wandering around this is more of a strategic move of like okay i'm

01:15:50.160 not really getting along with the older one the older grandson and his new wife um and his advisors

01:15:57.040 so i'm going to go with the younger one and sort of our worldviews are aligning a little bit better

01:16:05.260 and i'm going to set up shop down here but then like as forever the two brothers are which are

01:16:10.940 her two grandsons the brothers of each other go to war against each other because this story is

01:16:16.380 one of unrelenting wars between brothers so okay so this okay tell me what happens next

01:16:24.040 i mean essentially we have these two brothers in a war another thing i want to bring into because

01:16:30.060 we were talking about like the next generation is is brunhild does set up an alliance with her

01:16:35.920 granddaughter and installs her in kind of this palace to kind of keep an eye on this separate 0.99

01:16:43.340 area of the territories so she's still always i think always building like alliances constantly

01:16:51.460 so she's I mentioned that she goes on the building spree she has this new church she has a new

01:16:58.380 convent and so this whole idea that the whole story that Brunhild was like kind of kicked out

01:17:04.620 and this idea that like the the grandsons are fighting it's hard to know I guess we have to

01:17:11.100 sort of like dig through all of that so she goes with Theudoric and part of the reason for that is

01:17:18.540 he's willing to let her operate the same way that her son did.

01:17:22.500 And the ambassadors address them as like Queen Brunhild and King Thuderk.

01:17:26.840 Right.

01:17:27.500 So like her basically in charge, him just kind of also there.

01:17:31.400 Yeah.

01:17:32.440 And he also, instead of marrying like a really strong headed woman, 1.00

01:17:36.480 keeps having like concubines who have kids. 0.99

01:17:39.800 But that means that there's heirs, there's a lot of sons, 0.83

01:17:44.000 but he's unmarried so she can kind of continue as queen.

01:17:48.540 So she's operating exactly as she used to.

01:17:51.600 This is also the period where rather than sort of being cast out, Brunhild also forms an alliance with the Pope, Pope Gregory, and Christianizes Britain, which I just want to mention because I think it's going to, in terms of like significance, like if she doesn't do this and Kent, you know, doesn't become Christian, like this alters like, I think for those of us in North America, you know, like how things affect, you know, us here now today.

01:18:18.540 And she's also holding church councils, so that's really important. And there's this great move where she even takes up a powerful bishop, he would be today the equivalent of an archbishop, and has a rape allegation, and has him brought up on rape charges against a noblewoman, which I think is sort of,

01:18:45.120 again we have this idea of bernheld forming these alliances or rallying with other women

01:18:53.420 and so she's fighting but at this point in time she's obviously like earned herself some enemies

01:18:58.660 in the church as well because i don't really like it if you kind of not only is she good friends

01:19:04.200 buddy buddy with like the pope you know that's kind of alarming but she's also kind of gone after

01:19:10.800 this really powerful archbishop. And at this point in time, there's this new kind of strain

01:19:16.340 of Christianity that's creeping into Francia. And it's coming from Ireland, like the Irish 0.91

01:19:21.740 sort of monasteries. And they're known for like, lots of corporal punishment, they love beating 1.00

01:19:27.000 themselves. And they decide that they want to come into Francia and into continental Europe and 0.96

01:19:32.580 found more monasteries that are based on this model. And they're, you know, what we would

01:19:38.400 essentially consider to be like kind of more fundamentalist and they're really heavy handed

01:19:42.100 Pope Gregory when he's sending out and Brunhub when they're sending out their missionaries

01:19:46.360 their goal is like you go in you find the local traditions and you adopt so if there's a pagan 0.94

01:19:52.100 temple you're like this is cool who's your pagan goddess okay well we could also call that person

01:19:57.720 like Saint Margaret and you could just do the same thing and you could just call it Saint

01:20:01.660 margaret's day and they'd say okay whereas when this strain comes in and there's this one mount

01:20:08.540 columbanus he just burns their churches down he just finds like their favorite trees and burns

01:20:13.640 them down and then he's like why are they getting in fights with me you know like why do i keep

01:20:21.020 getting in trouble but then they also start this whole whole thing this group they're already kind

01:20:25.680 of mad at brunhild and they're like you're letting your grandson live in sin with all of these 1.00

01:20:30.840 concubines and you have this like luxurious lifestyle and you're not supporting us and

01:20:37.380 they're ganging up with these like anti-tax people in the mountains so if you want to picture these

01:20:43.220 sort of fundamentalist monks and christians and this sort of like anti-big government you know

01:20:51.840 coalition and they've decided like oh brunhild's a bit of a problem like we don't like the power

01:20:58.080 she has we don't like what she's telling us to do um let's have a tax rebellion like let's get rid 0.99

01:21:03.560 of her she's been so influential and so successful for so long just no one else has been no one else

01:21:11.580 has lived that long like usually when someone is this powerful in this place in time they get

01:21:17.140 assassinated so it's impressive that she lasted as long as she did it is and i mean she's still

01:21:24.640 doing this you got to keep in mind like you know at this point we're like mid 50s and then she's in

01:21:30.200 her 60s and then it's like this is a really it's just a long life period i mean given there's no

01:21:37.080 clean water or kind of you know regular regular like doctor visits and she hasn't died in child

01:21:44.780 birth but also just in terms of like the wars but she's still like kind of managing to keep her head

01:21:52.200 on top there's the tax rebellion that's like pitting kind of grandson against grandson

01:21:57.200 and I guess you know at one point her grandson I was saying through Derek the both the grandsons

01:22:05.820 are going to end up end up dead and then we're getting down to great grandsons which is the

01:22:12.420 second Sigbert yes Sigbert in the story number two so this is at this point Brunhild is now

01:22:21.460 regent of her great-grandson just like catherine de medici wishes that she yeah okay so like but

01:22:32.060 so she made it through this tax rebellion and everything and the deaths of both grandsons and

01:22:37.500 so there's four great-grandchildren left behind they're all really really young they're all

01:22:43.920 minors still so she's thinking you know maybe what i can do is the oldest boy the sigbert is

01:22:51.340 he's like 11. What if he rules the king, you know, the kingdoms by himself, we can kind of

01:22:57.060 up his age, he'll be, you know, he'll be turning, he'll be of age, which would be like 15 pretty

01:23:02.800 soon. And she's like, so don't be worried, I'm just gonna be regent, but just for a couple more

01:23:07.180 years, because it's just this one guy, you know, I won't let the younger ones, they're so young,

01:23:11.820 so he'll just take over, we'll just go to a single heir, so we don't have to keep splitting

01:23:16.400 everything up. We'll just have this one boy and I'm just going to be regent for a couple more

01:23:21.480 years. So you don't really have to have to worry. And this is the point where Freda Gunn's son is

01:23:29.300 like, I'm going to align myself with some of the people that were dissatisfied with, with Brunhild

01:23:34.380 and we're going to try to take her out together. So this is the thing. So like Brunhild has been

01:23:39.320 for the last several decades, like through her son, grandson, like she's been ruling over

01:23:44.380 austrasia and burgundy but fredigan's son has been ruling over neustria is that right yeah so

01:23:52.900 he's it i was just kind of starting to feel like oh brunhild's in charge of all of them but no no

01:23:57.300 they're still fredigan's son and it's and they've been like steadily like chipping away at that

01:24:03.160 kingdom so it's really small it's kind of down to what we would consider to be like normandy and

01:24:07.840 france and like you know a little adjoining area so it's it's kind of a sliver of a kingdom at this

01:24:13.300 point and she seems to be ruling you know all of it right so then we've got so this is like

01:24:19.580 fredigan's from beyond the grave revenge one might say so through her son so her son teams

01:24:26.500 up with the anti brunhild people and is this where she's taken captive and put on trial

01:24:32.160 yeah so essentially um and the interesting thing is like we have a bishop and a noble who say

01:24:39.500 we're going to invite clothar that's spread against son to rule come rule us instead and

01:24:46.020 there wouldn't be able to pull this off though if it wasn't for the treachery of kind of an inside

01:24:51.320 man so she's been able to count on burn held these like loyal folks for so long and they've

01:24:56.140 started dying off and she's had to kind of replenish the ranks and one of these guys is

01:25:00.680 like hey great great grandkids you know ride out the army i'm right behind you and then they're in

01:25:07.540 this sticky situation and then they realize the whole army has like turned and left them you know

01:25:13.480 on their own and so they're able to capture the princes three of the four and also they're able

01:25:21.880 to capture brunhild and brunhild's granddaughter so most of the royal family is um rounded up

01:25:28.860 what's really i think fascinating too is there is this like lost prince there's always a lost

01:25:34.180 prince isn't there and like fairy tales but he's able to get away and they spend so much time and

01:25:40.340 energy like trying to hunt this boy down and he simply disappears but it seems as though he gets

01:25:46.840 out of town because we can sort of track his you know track where he went by the people who are

01:25:51.860 arrested for helping him but you know he never turns up but we know there's one of these grandsons

01:25:56.540 a 10 year old who somehow the sources say mounts a horse and fled never to return and that's i mean

01:26:03.060 he never we never find him but that could have turned into you know those guys who showed up to

01:26:08.040 be like i'm actually the princess in the tower like yes some sort of like fake anastasia could

01:26:13.720 have shown up at some point to be like and in this days of our lives saga i wouldn't be surprised if

01:26:19.140 that happened anyway so yeah so she's captured the royal family is captured the the boys her

01:26:25.520 grandchildren are killed or the girl is sent away and the boys are killed the girls are sent away

01:26:30.040 and he's gotten three of the four and of those three he executes two of them and sends one of

01:26:37.020 them he keeps one in reserve because you gotta always have like a spare just in case dysentery

01:26:41.920 takes out all the men again so two of the great great grandsons are killed the her granddaughter

01:26:49.200 is shut away in a convent and then they are going to decide what they're going to do with

01:26:54.180 Brunhild, who at this point is a very old queen. 0.64

01:26:56.300 She's in her 70s, I think.

01:26:58.340 Yeah.

01:26:59.660 Late 60s, early 70s.

01:27:01.640 And so she was held, she was accused of the death of 10 kings of the Franks.

01:27:08.900 Yes.

01:27:09.520 And some of those are people that Bratagon, like Clothar's mother, had killed.

01:27:14.600 So, you know, it's kind of like everything gets laid at her feet.

01:27:18.420 Well, and some of them are people who just died in battle or of natural causes.

01:27:21.880 It's like every king who has recently died, she was accused of personally murdering.

01:27:26.740 Because like, we're going to just wrap it all up with a bow.

01:27:29.560 Be like, everything was her fault.

01:27:31.800 And once we get rid of her, there are sunnier days ahead.

01:27:34.820 Well, and also it's a way for Clothar to clear his mother's name, Fredegund.

01:27:38.560 Because if he wants his reputation to be clean, then it can't be like, well, you're the son of the woman who did all these things.

01:27:45.280 Right. Very good point.

01:27:47.120 Well, and that's why, you know, the whole Fredigan being buried, and it's like, she was the mother of a king. You know, it's like really cleaning away some of what she did to make him seem better. And basically, it's a show trial. Like, this is not, she's not going to be found innocent of this.

01:28:03.060 No. 0.56

01:28:04.080 She is found guilty, and she is, a camel shows up, and she is executed in fairly dramatic circumstances. 0.83

01:28:12.720 this is incredibly dramatic and in fact it might be the most brutal execution of a queen that we

01:28:20.560 you know that we know of so first you know on a camel it's like why would they even i mean they

01:28:27.360 have to go and get this camel right i mean it's not as though there's camels just running around

01:28:31.200 you know battlefields of frankia and you say that sorry in your book you mentioned you're like this

01:28:35.900 is the one detail all of the retellings say like they all say it's a camel so it's not just like

01:28:40.500 women misinterpreted they all say specifically camel yeah and but the thing that is really

01:28:46.120 interesting is like in um from egypt to byzantium they would take you know when they were deposing

01:28:52.080 a king so this is a king's death that she's going to endure which is really interesting

01:28:56.120 they would have them be paraded around on a camel facing backwards and was the opposite of when an

01:29:01.280 emperor rode triumphant into a city he came in and so this was them like we are symbolically like

01:29:06.920 showing you the door and in even where she came from they would sometimes do this with a donkey

01:29:12.420 but particularly like the byzantine empire did this with a camel so they got the camel and they

01:29:19.060 made her ride it um backwards and you know it was in a way too to show that she's foreign

01:29:24.520 really to point to her foreign roots like this is not a frankish woman you know we're not going to 0.97

01:29:29.800 do a frankish ceremony on her we're going to do what these like strange people in the east do with

01:29:35.700 their, you know what I mean, with their kings. And so, you know, they've also tortured her at 0.57

01:29:40.460 this point when they take her out. They've tortured her for three days. And so we know

01:29:44.300 that she, they say that she's like a, quote, sorry spectacle. So, you know, we know she's 0.99

01:29:50.780 a great grandmother and we know she's been tortured. We've assumed that, you know, she

01:29:54.120 doesn't, she's not looking like she's in really good shape, that they've done something to her

01:29:58.020 to like physically sort of demean or embarrass her. And then they tie her, the sources differ

01:30:05.200 on this but she's tied to a horses to a horse some say the hooves some say tails um some say

01:30:12.800 you know and how she's bound is it just she's bound by arms and legs some people say it's her

01:30:17.460 hair one arm and one leg so the sources are all kind of hazy on well here's the thing you're 0.73

01:30:22.880 seeing this happen like can you fully take in what you're seeing you know i mean so ridiculous and

01:30:29.580 you know she's essentially killed she's ripped to death by wild horses so she's tied to these

01:30:36.020 horse or horses and they give the signal give the you know horse a smack and it gallops across this

01:30:43.080 like rocky terrain and that's the end of brunhild but even worse so she's obviously not in good

01:30:50.780 shape when they have her body but then they make sure um they say you know her final grave was the

01:30:56.660 fire, her bones were burnt. So not only is she dead, but they make sure they can't have a body.

01:31:03.140 There can't be a martyr. There can't be a tomb. It is literally obliterated, completely obliterated.

01:31:09.580 So that's like Fred again, there's still, and a couple people who listen to the podcast have

01:31:14.340 visited where Fred again is buried and they've sent me pictures. And I always, I'm so touched

01:31:18.180 and so excited when I see it, but Brunhild, there's not a place to visit for her.

01:31:22.200 there is so there's part of her sarcophagus and there's kind of this the remains of this church

01:31:29.260 so the church itself there was a crypt she had built herself a tomb in this crypt in a church

01:31:35.200 that she built in that city of autun and it had all these marble columns and there there are

01:31:40.240 sketches that were made of it before the crypt itself was destroyed during the revolution but

01:31:46.460 it seems that somebody who was at that execution scooped up her ashes, because it was just ashes

01:31:52.980 that were found there and put it in, you know, the sarcophagus that that people still created

01:31:59.620 some sort of a tomb, or at least that's what it was. That's what was relayed. And the thing we

01:32:04.760 have to keep in mind, too, is now looking back with, you know, we know who won. And so with the

01:32:09.120 benefit of hindsight, it's like, oh, you know, Clothar wins. But at the time, you know, people

01:32:13.700 didn't know i mean they don't know if that other great-grandson is going to show back up

01:32:17.760 and there's a lot of opposition so there are a lot of records saying you know um there are

01:32:23.680 bishops who are rebelling there are you know kind of other forces there are sort of these nobles who

01:32:31.000 are banding together trying to get rid of clothar and he you know has there's assassination attempts

01:32:37.500 against him there's people pushing back so it's not as though brunhild is like left alone and

01:32:43.160 friendless it's you know she definitely has allies she has people on her side but the timing they're

01:32:48.260 not able to you know get there there's no like rescue party you know like the movie kind of

01:32:52.920 coming in and saving the day but you can still go there's a it's a really small museum in a ton

01:32:58.520 and i went there and the slab of her marble sarcophagus not her remains is is there and

01:33:05.920 you can kind of uh touch it and see it that's i mean i just so many things in this keep kind of

01:33:13.460 tweaking just because i've been like going so deep in mary queen of scots this whole year

01:33:16.840 but like it's similar when she was executed they burned her clothes they burned like they didn't

01:33:22.080 want any speck of blood that could be turned into a relic that could be turned into anything that

01:33:27.780 would make her seem like a martyr so it seems like a similar thing where it's just like

01:33:31.500 we need to erase all trace of this person yeah and then that's what they do i mean they go through

01:33:37.900 the historical records they were like you know just it's just simple things like taxes not saying

01:33:43.020 she was great but just like it's like those years never existed you know they just they just take it

01:33:47.260 right out how did we're gonna get into the scoring shortly but why is the name brunhild well known

01:33:54.760 net like there's an opera or something yeah i mean i don't know if it's both women's stories

01:34:03.080 are kind of co-opted into this amalgam but that kind of composite character is usually named

01:34:10.160 brunhald and so that's pretty interesting and i don't know if that's just because um that was

01:34:16.240 that was like the forbidden name or that she was slightly better known because she lived a little

01:34:20.140 longer than right Fred again yeah there's also this idea too that like she has you know like

01:34:25.600 roads named after her like when um I was in France like you can still ride on a on a road

01:34:31.540 and they're named you know they're named after her um you know the French version of Brunho but

01:34:36.720 like you can go ride on these roads so that there were because she was such like in terms of 0.98

01:34:42.340 building empire right she built things there were still even though they got rid of her 1.00

01:34:47.220 things, places, roads that were associated with her that one wonders if that's kind of why her 0.99

01:34:55.020 name lived on. Well, there's that thing I can see behind you just in the video. You have like one

01:34:59.340 of those hats with the horns on. Like what's that connection? Like when I, before I read your book,

01:35:04.320 before I knew anything about anything, Brunhild somehow in my head, I was like, oh yeah, the hat

01:35:07.940 with the horns, like the Viking lady in the opera. Like what is that? And that's exactly like how I

01:35:13.700 encountered that too I have to tell you like I that hat you see with the horns was something I

01:35:18.440 had bought for a Halloween costume and you know when I was like we stumbled across the story of

01:35:24.520 Brunhild and Fred again and source material I was like wait is that is that opera horn helmet lady

01:35:30.360 and I was like it is and was kind of completely blown away I think part of that is the story that

01:35:37.760 gets attached to Brunhild you know Fred again's essentially kind of a race they're like let's make

01:35:41.560 her nice let's make her pretty she's the the mother of a king and we we'll keep her around 0.99

01:35:46.060 but in this very sanitized version brunhilde is like um she's really bad she's bad she rips you 1.00

01:35:52.640 know if you vote for her if you go with her if you allow yourself with her um she'll rip the kingdom

01:35:57.760 apart and then there becomes these like characters that are like oh they end up you know their

01:36:03.200 choices and in the myths and the folklore that they are used in becomes this woman who what she

01:36:09.400 does can rip the kingdom apart you know and essentially her story becomes kind of grafted

01:36:15.540 onto these these norse legends so what i want to again like i sent you just so the listeners know

01:36:21.820 i sent you an explanation of the scoring categories and i also let you know how fredigan scored so

01:36:26.300 that you know kind of what what not that we necessarily always want to compare the two

01:36:30.540 against each other but just so you know like where the gauge is but i do i didn't tell you this

01:36:35.020 before, but there is when I do these episodes, if there's somebody who is really helpful. So

01:36:41.420 there's an award I give called the Lady Jane Seymour Memorial Award for Outstanding Supporting

01:36:46.280 Performance. And that's if there's a person in the story who was like a real one, who is like

01:36:52.780 really there. Cause it's, I've done a hundred and something episodes. There's like six people on

01:36:57.180 this list. Like most of the people I talk about don't have someone in their corner. Is there

01:37:01.460 anyone who you feel from Brunhild's story would be this. And I feel like her mom might be this.

01:37:08.980 Her mom. Oh my gosh. There's like, there's almost too many, which I think

01:37:12.280 is going to be problematic because they can't all get it. I think her mom is pretty,

01:37:17.700 it's pretty amazing. And I, there's also Radagund who there's like a new book out by

01:37:23.900 ET Daily, by the way, that just details her life.

01:37:27.400 There's not, is there? Because I was reading your book and I was like, I'm obsessed with Radagund.

01:37:31.460 There is a brand new book and it's out with the University of Oxford.

01:37:34.400 And I wish I had it upstairs with me, but I have it downstairs.

01:37:37.960 I can send you a copy of the cover, but it's just out and it's marvelous.

01:37:41.920 I'm good at listeners.

01:37:42.860 I will 100% put a link to that in the show notes because I was Radigand.

01:37:46.920 I was just like, I want to know more about her.

01:37:49.680 Okay.

01:37:50.880 Yeah.

01:37:51.160 So I feel like Radigand is also like this rebellious queen.

01:37:55.180 We didn't even touch her story, but who really helps Brunhild when she first lands there

01:38:00.860 and proves to be like kind of a real ally

01:38:02.680 and goes toe-to-toe and advocates for her behalf,

01:38:06.400 you know, with the Byzantines. 0.86

01:38:09.280 And I think sets this course 1.00

01:38:11.840 of what a Frankish ex-queen can manage, 0.99

01:38:15.580 but certainly seems as close as to, 0.82

01:38:17.720 she has this really powerful mother in Spain, 0.83

01:38:19.920 but she also kind of has this mother figure in Frank

01:38:23.060 who helps sort of set her up.

01:38:25.560 I have in this category,

01:38:27.060 like I've got, for some of them,

01:38:28.700 I have like this person's whole family.

01:38:30.180 is on here. So I could just say Radigan and Goyce Wintha for her. Yeah. For Brunhild.

01:38:36.540 Kind of pseudo mother-in-law.

01:38:38.960 Yeah. Listeners, I will a thousand percent do a Radigan episode later because just the part

01:38:44.580 of her story that's in your book, I was just like, I didn't remember this from before,

01:38:48.920 but this is iconic behavior. I'll say one thing, one thing, which is she was married to this guy

01:38:54.780 she didn't want to be married to and so she just really embraced religiosity in a really aggressive

01:39:02.700 way where she would be like he's like time to go to bed wife and she would be like lying on the

01:39:08.100 floor like in a hair shirt like screaming out prayer like until he was like let's just send 1.00

01:39:14.240 you to a nunnery and then she was like great and then she took over the nunnery and was like a

01:39:18.740 power player she's like a queen in the nunnery anyway it's a great story it is a great story 0.91

01:39:24.760 So definitely having those kind of female queens in her corner, huge help, huge bonus. 1.00

01:39:33.340 Definitely. 0.93

01:39:34.160 And this is where I like to recognize people who help out because again, it's not often.

01:39:39.700 A lot of people are just kind of stranded out there on their own doing the best they can.

01:39:43.760 And so it's nice when somebody helps somebody.

01:39:46.260 Okay.

01:39:46.620 So the categories, just to recap for everybody, you know, if you listen to this and you haven't

01:39:50.460 heard the Fredegand episodes, just so you know, Fredegand, a perfect score in this is 40. Fredegand

01:39:56.740 continues to have the highest score anyone has ever gotten, which is 38 out of 40. And I, in fact,

01:40:03.740 renamed this whole thing as the Fredegand Memorial Scandaliciousness Scale in her honor,

01:40:09.320 because I felt bad I didn't give her a 40. And so, and we've got like scandaliciousness,

01:40:16.420 right scheminess significance and sexism i have to tell you i found scandaliciousness the most

01:40:21.900 difficult so maybe can we put that one last like discuss definitely definitely you know what let's

01:40:27.640 start with what i think is an easy one which is significance yes in terms of what she did for how

01:40:33.560 long the fact there was roads named after her still but can you explain where you would score 0.99

01:40:39.180 her for significance i would do nine out of ten and here's why so first recorded female judge in 0.54

01:40:45.640 like western history check mark christianizing britain like instrumental in that check mark 1.00

01:40:52.700 roads city check mark check mark as you said like long-term diplomacy tons of treaties alliances

01:41:01.940 all of it i think her significance is huge and the only reason and i mean still is impacting our

01:41:08.700 lives today the only reason i'm saying nine out of ten is because i think you know she has

01:41:15.340 been erased, or at least like her tale has been, I guess, you know, certainly twisted and perverted

01:41:22.840 in terms of how it's been passed down to us in history. Although I still think she has more

01:41:27.660 brand name recognition than Freda Gunn. You know, I don't know necessarily who she is,

01:41:32.340 but they're like that name. They've heard something about it. Is she in an opera? What's

01:41:38.000 that woman? So she's somehow managed to survive. And if you consider that's been 1400 years, I'm 1.00

01:41:43.460 Like, that's pretty amazing.

01:41:45.860 No, and that, so in this category,

01:41:48.040 Fratigand got an eight.

01:41:50.520 So I think it makes sense that what Brunhild,

01:41:53.600 like even just, like just to really explain to people

01:41:57.640 so they understand their significance,

01:41:58.940 like Brunhild is the one who sent the person to England

01:42:02.020 to start making that country have Christians in it,

01:42:08.020 which shaped all of English history. 0.97

01:42:10.980 You know, like the schism, Protestant and Catholic, and then like the Puritans coming

01:42:15.520 to America, like someone else might've done that later, but Brunhild is the one who did

01:42:20.560 that.

01:42:21.780 Right.

01:42:22.360 And she funds that and also, you know, kind of funds a lot of things that happen in the

01:42:28.140 church.

01:42:28.680 And Pope Gregory was like huge. 0.54

01:42:30.480 And the fact that he's, you know, besties with a woman certainly changes some of his 0.93

01:42:36.100 like catechism and canons and approach.

01:42:38.140 I mean, there's a point where, you know, Pope Gregory goes out on a limb and says, you

01:42:42.480 know what, like up till then, women, when they had their periods, weren't allowed in

01:42:45.160 church.

01:42:45.540 And he's like, you know, it's not a sin to be menstruating.

01:42:49.340 They should be allowed in church.

01:42:50.440 And you wonder how much of this is him having like relationships with powerful women like

01:42:54.620 Brunhild that are like, hey, you know, let us in church.

01:42:57.820 But that's kind of, I mean, that seems really progressive.

01:43:01.140 Honestly, for today, it still is.

01:43:03.180 But even with the Christianity thing, I'm just remembering now how you described her

01:43:06.620 kind of christianity she was raised with which is kind of more like open to other people and like

01:43:12.120 not super like fundamentalist and that's the approach that they took when they went to england

01:43:17.540 which you described earlier you know it's like oh instead of like burning down the church let's just

01:43:21.820 kind of like kind of change things a little so like that the fact that that was her approach is

01:43:26.200 part of why it's successful and then that changed the course of everything because england as a

01:43:32.160 christian power like blew up but yeah the fact that there's still roads and the name recognition

01:43:37.500 yeah i respect that i respect that she gets higher than fredigan and that honestly i'm just

01:43:41.920 like why i'd have to listen back like i'm not sure how i gave fredigan an eight but i'm biased so

01:43:47.560 it just sounds like brunhild did a lot more like specifically significant things i might have just

01:43:54.480 thought fredigan was significant to me personally and she is significant i forget if we were

01:43:58.140 recording when i told you but someone told me fred someone named their car fred again someone

01:44:02.180 sent me a picture of their avatar and like pokemon or something is called fred again i have to say

01:44:06.420 in my peloton account my name is fred again so yeah i love this you had to choose a name and i'm

01:44:13.660 like has anyone and it's like has to be a name no one else has chosen and i'm like no one else

01:44:18.820 has chosen fred again first of all a travesty but second of all i get it okay let's do let's

01:44:24.840 do scheminess. Cause this is like a high score, obviously, cause that covers, I explained it to

01:44:30.160 you, but it's not, it's like scheminess for her, I think literal, but also just being cleverness,

01:44:35.900 being able to pivot, to see what's going on and react to it in a smart way to have a plan. And

01:44:41.420 then for those plans to actually happen and then to actually work, like just to be like one step

01:44:46.360 ahead kind of. Yes. I'm, I'm 10 out of 10 here because I feel like she had a plan B and a plan

01:44:52.920 transparency you know i mean like even the whole idea of like okay husband dies i'm in convent

01:44:57.480 secret marriage rebellion got my kids back now i'm regent now i do that and you know when she

01:45:03.260 would be a diplomat or be negotiated be like okay that didn't work all right i'm trying this way

01:45:08.120 she always had a great handle on the big picture the big players like where frankie fit in 0.94

01:45:17.660 internationally i think that's one thing that she kind of kept her head and her wits about her

01:45:22.760 and was really able to take the long view.

01:45:26.540 And I think also she had the canniness to know

01:45:28.840 kind of who to team up with,

01:45:31.620 like who would be loyal to her.

01:45:33.040 And even just stuff like, you know,

01:45:34.300 like standing in the middle of the battle,

01:45:35.940 like just things that were, it was genuine,

01:45:38.860 but it was also a way that she knew

01:45:40.140 to get people to be loyal to her.

01:45:41.660 She knew the value of that. 0.77

01:45:44.420 Crafting spectacle to her advantage. 1.00

01:45:46.320 Yes, like she was a great politician and diplomat 1.00

01:45:50.380 and a lot of those skills I think would still work today. 1.00

01:45:52.500 Definitely. And that's where part of like so much of it feels modern to me in a way,

01:45:56.520 like I could really easily transpose what she was doing into a more modern setting because it's a

01:46:01.580 very timeless, I don't know, way to just be smart about a really fraught political situation. Like

01:46:07.860 you get strong allies, you make sure they know that you're loyal to them, be loyal to them back.

01:46:13.480 And then, yeah, especially for somebody who is in power for as long as she was,

01:46:18.360 was so important to have those alliances. And then we have the sexism. So this is where it's 1.00

01:46:24.980 like, how much did being a woman hold her back? How much more could she have enacted if she hadn't 0.93

01:46:31.020 had to be busy dealing with, if she could have just been a ruler in her own name, instead of

01:46:36.480 having to wait for a son and then a grandson and like she, and in a way it didn't hold her back 0.94

01:46:41.920 in some ways because she kind of still did become the ruler. But at the same time, if she hadn't had

01:46:47.740 to dedicate brain space to having to be like, oh, Guntram, I'm just like this poor little widow. 0.79

01:46:52.820 Won't you help me? Like if she could have just done stuff. Yeah. And if you think of how effective

01:46:58.100 she was, she managed to be. And then you imagine if she wasn't, you know, some of the resistance

01:47:03.300 to her was purely that she was a woman. So if you take that resistance out of the equation

01:47:09.820 and you have more people kind of on board with her ideas and her reforms,

01:47:14.380 sometimes I think that's that's huge that's consequential I mean that was part of what 0.96

01:47:19.440 she always had to kind of go about it slant but she clearly had the chops to be a ruler I mean 0.99

01:47:25.380 she crafted herself I think like a lot of Roman emperors do you know so yes I think sexism was

01:47:33.880 huge it's amazing she was able to accomplish as much as she did but I kind of mourn what more

01:47:41.240 she could have done. I mean, she, you can be queen for, you know, that long and hang on to power

01:47:47.660 for four generations while everything's going to hell in a handbasket around you. That's amazing.

01:47:54.760 And then you take the burden of not having sexism, you know, you take that off her back and imagine

01:48:01.420 if sort of unburdened, how much more she could have accomplished. I'm 10 out of 10 here. What

01:48:05.860 are you, where are you leaning? I'm leaning towards 10 out of 10 as well, because also there's the,

01:48:10.160 the way that her life ended up the way that she was sort of her name continued on in legend but

01:48:16.780 the I think this is I think this is how you describe it in the book but it's just like

01:48:20.280 her and Fred again like the men who came after them with a more fundamentalist sort of religious

01:48:25.080 background were like women can't know this is possible so let's hide this if that hadn't

01:48:30.660 happened and if like you said if she had been able to rule on her own terms not just as like 1.00

01:48:34.640 sideways as the grandmother of the king like I think she'd be on par with like Julius Caesar 0.82

01:48:39.980 Genghis Khan like I think she's like I think that's the level she could have reached if it

01:48:45.120 was a society that didn't hold her back to this level I could see that and I also just just you

01:48:52.400 know for her despite sexism for her constantly looking out for other women that was also something 0.72

01:48:58.180 for me where I was like wow like you know that that she still found time to do that but also

01:49:04.980 as you're saying you know if that could have really been allowed to blossom after her death

01:49:09.100 if people could have sort of continued that.

01:49:11.100 And they tried, they certainly did.

01:49:12.460 And there's certainly other kind of great examples 1.00

01:49:15.760 of women who tried to follow in her footsteps 0.96

01:49:18.580 and took her as an example.

01:49:20.600 But if that had been more widely known,

01:49:22.580 you imagine there has to be someone somewhere

01:49:25.700 whose story was sort of snuffed out

01:49:27.980 and with a good example or a really clearly delineated map

01:49:32.060 could have also made a huge difference.

01:49:34.820 Well, it's like you mentioned in your book,

01:49:36.180 there's one or two other Frankish queens

01:49:38.440 and like one of them tried to do some stuff

01:49:40.680 and then she was sent to a nunnery

01:49:41.780 like because the men were just like

01:49:43.640 we can't have a Fred again Brunhild scenario again

01:49:46.100 like we need to nip this in the bed

01:49:47.400 but so many people are like 0.97

01:49:48.960 Queen Elizabeth I or whatever

01:49:50.880 you know like she's a very well known 1.00

01:49:52.240 for me a successful female monarch 0.94

01:49:54.020 who also was like I'm basically a man

01:49:56.720 don't worry about it 0.99

01:49:57.800 because that's what she had to do

01:49:58.980 but like if there were other

01:50:00.420 if what Brunhild was actually like

01:50:03.280 I didn't even read the second half 0.99

01:50:05.060 of her ridiculous Wikipedia article 0.57

01:50:07.500 that I feel like I need to go in and edit but it's like she proved her ruthlessness and I'm just 1.00

01:50:11.460 like shut up Wikipedia but um she's got this weird reputation where I think she should be you know

01:50:17.520 when there's um I'm just looking I'm in my kitchen I'm looking at the fridge I have these magnets of

01:50:21.320 like great women from history and it's like Cleopatra Elizabeth for like Elizabeth I and I'm

01:50:26.040 like if her story is better known like Brunhild's story is just as impactful as those it's just not

01:50:31.900 no and that's largely because it was stomped out and also she was kind of cut off at the knees

01:50:37.600 because she wasn't allowed to really flourish the way that Elizabeth was for instance and this

01:50:42.340 brings us to and this I agree this is challenging the scandalousness because Fredegund has that

01:50:48.420 right like Fredegund is like come on she's 10 out of 10 there isn't she I mean she is she is 10

01:50:55.880 Fredegund got a 10 out of 10 in that category because it's like like being going from like

01:51:00.220 even if all she did was be like someone who was enslaved who then got the king to divorce his wife

01:51:06.460 and murder his next wife to be with her like that's and so Brynhild I think and this is tricky

01:51:14.240 and it depends how you define scandalous because there's people in the era who were like oh my god 1.00

01:51:18.560 she's a woman who knows how to read and write terrible probably but she was accepted in her 1.00

01:51:24.380 leadership role because she made these Kenny alliances. She was never, or was she, was she 1.00

01:51:31.000 ever accused of adultery or anything? No. I mean, there was, there was always, yes. And later in

01:51:36.840 life in her fifties, they accused her of having an affair with a governor she installed. And she

01:51:42.400 was at this point, like in her mid fifties and was like, Oh, that's why you install that younger

01:51:46.020 man because secretly you're sleeping with him. You, you know, old bat kind of thing. So there 0.99

01:51:51.320 were allegations and and against her when she was sort of a grant you know like at that point a 0.92

01:51:59.500 grandmother but oh but you know what you know what is scandalous that she did was marrying

01:52:05.100 doing the nunnery scheming and then marrying maravich and then starting a coup there's a lot

01:52:12.340 of it i think you absolutely hit the nail on the head earlier when you were talking about how

01:52:16.640 the things she pulls off are no less like kind of daring and audacious but she goes about things

01:52:21.120 in a much sort of quieter more measured way and by virtue of her background she's a little less

01:52:27.200 scandalous because as you said like no one's questioning they might question the extent to 0.96

01:52:31.640 what she wields power but no one's like questioning whether she should have a seat at least at the

01:52:36.960 periphery of the table you know like okay we understand why she's why she's here so it wasn't

01:52:42.660 necessarily scandalous because she was able to play it off as well i'm just i'm just doing this

01:52:47.280 to watch out for my son I'm just doing this to watch out for my grandsons I'm just which made

01:52:52.400 it palatable in a way Fred again was not but then at the same time you're like she's taking on the

01:52:58.640 church and she's you know kind of taking on these nobles and she's doing things that you know

01:53:04.980 arming herself as a man and acting as a judge so there's certainly um a scandalous element but

01:53:13.640 certainly not to the degree where people were like, why is she even doing this? Particularly

01:53:18.840 because she has a mom who does these sorts of things. So people could be like, where is she 0.99

01:53:23.720 getting these ideas from? It was clear that they were like, oh, she's trying to be just like her

01:53:27.600 mom or she's trying to follow in this person's footsteps. Well, and the reason why I have the

01:53:33.080 four categories that I have is because it's rare for somebody to score highly in everything. Like

01:53:38.320 there's some people who are really, really, really scandalous, but then they're not very significant

01:53:42.580 or that sort of thing so like she's significant she's got the scheminess but like the scandalous

01:53:47.860 is just that wasn't a thing that she that wasn't her personality I don't think to be like to try 0.99

01:53:54.620 and shock people or intentionally or unintentionally and when people are shocked by her 0.79

01:53:58.720 well not shock but you said like the thing about like oh she must be having an affair with that 0.99

01:54:02.560 guy like that's not her behavior causing that it's not because she's like running around

01:54:06.020 topless with him it's like that would have been awesome isn't it yeah no but like it was just

01:54:13.600 people like oh that and that's more sexism right that's more just like oh a woman and a man are

01:54:17.760 friends that means they must be lovers so i i don't know like this is really i don't see brunhill 0.82

01:54:24.120 there's definitely a level there of like the secret marriage but the way that she sort of

01:54:29.880 like glossed things over with her allies made it so nobody came against her in that way like to say

01:54:37.700 like oh she's so scared like the way they did to fredigan where they're like you're having this 0.76

01:54:41.040 affair it's like because fredigan was just messy that was just her way brunhild yeah it's very

01:54:47.200 polished yeah so i don't think she's scandalous and i don't think she would want to be thought of 0.83

01:54:52.100 as such no and i think she scandalized people with some of the things she did but she had built 1.00

01:54:59.100 up such a power base, you know, I mean, there certainly would people be like, hold on, you're

01:55:03.680 signing this treaty as if you're a king, you're expecting the title of a king, you are, you know,

01:55:10.140 sitting as a judge that that was kind of like, but again, she had clergy, she had nobles were

01:55:18.000 like, no, no, no, it's okay. It's all right. Just look the other way. It's good. And that's kind of

01:55:22.360 right. And that's kind of the thing for this category. I tend to think of it's like in her

01:55:25.820 time did people look at her, was she seen as a scandalous person or not? And I think for the

01:55:31.360 most part, she was not because she had the kind of like bureaucracy supporting her. So people

01:55:37.520 weren't scandalized by what she did, even if the things were maybe scandalous. So I don't know

01:55:43.060 where that lands. Yes. The very end, I think when she's like, okay, I'm going to take over again as

01:55:49.120 region. Don't worry. It's just for a couple of years that people were a little scandalized

01:55:52.060 because obviously then they rise up against her. So that was the one time when they're like,

01:55:55.560 hold on hold on no no no no no no you can't do this a fourth time well that's the thing too

01:56:00.500 yeah it's like sorry to interrupt but like had she been scandalous they would have sent her to

01:56:05.360 a nunnery much earlier she couldn't really afford to be right so it was like they really she was

01:56:11.820 able to kind of push it all the way to the limit and they're like hold on no no no no no you can't

01:56:15.720 trick us again not number four so there is an element there but it's not true i don't think

01:56:22.560 like scandalousness yeah i'm what do you think about like a five that feels good to me i was

01:56:28.960 like fivers yeah because it's kind of like it's not it's there but it's not so that leaves her

01:56:35.400 with a total score of 34 so in terms of this scale fredigand still higher than her but 34 is

01:56:44.280 certainly one of the highest scores like she's definitely top 10 with that all right um i'm just

01:56:49.800 Catherine de' Medici has 35.5 so only a little bit more and I said before but Catherine de' Medici 0.93

01:56:55.500 had scandalous moments she had like her flying squadron she had like the poison rumors like 1.00

01:57:00.680 so I think that's why she's a bit higher yeah like a few massacres in there exactly Brunhild 0.81

01:57:08.520 like there was a lot of wars there was a lot of battles but she was never kind of like let's just 0.80

01:57:13.320 kill all the Protestants today. So that's lovely. Thank you so much. Um, are you allowed to talk 0.98

01:57:19.640 about your next book? I am a little bit. I'm in the, um, I'm right now like deep in the archival

01:57:24.900 documents for the blood countess, which will be kind of going over the cold case of Elizabeth

01:57:31.160 Bathory. And for listeners who don't know who she is, she is the 16th century Hungarian countess

01:57:36.680 who is supposed to be the most prolific female serial killer in history. Although what I'm doing

01:57:46.620 is essentially looking at brand new evidence and also reassessing some old evidence and looking at 0.91

01:57:53.420 this through a feminist lens to talk about was she framed and if so, by who? And can we sort of

01:57:59.540 conclusively settle once and for all the question of her guilt.

01:58:04.500 I was so excited when I just came across and mentioned that this book was coming out

01:58:09.540 next year. I'm like, a book about Elizabeth Bathory from a feminist lens. I'm like,

01:58:14.280 Shelly's writing it. I was so excited. Because I do think I did an episode about Elizabeth Bathory

01:58:19.460 years ago in like 2019. And at the time I was like, this is going to be a cool episode about

01:58:24.680 this like lady serial killer. And right away, I was like, this doesn't feel right. This, 0.76

01:58:28.260 all these all the evidence about her I'm just like wait this all feels real fake this feels like

01:58:33.720 and the fact she's in the Guinness Book of World Records I'm like it's so off and let me tell you

01:58:39.320 um it's it's been it's been a deep dive like the evidence is scattered across um the archives of

01:58:46.200 four different countries but as you piece it together there's you know it's fascinating what

01:58:50.940 I always find like you can still find out and what's still out there waiting to be discovered

01:58:56.140 But I think this is a case, too, of, you know, real life being stranger than fiction.

01:59:01.800 And I think as crazy as her story is right now, like the accepted story of we know of her, like, kind of torturing, you know, virgins and this sort of like sadomasochistic.

01:59:14.920 Being in blood.

01:59:16.480 Yeah.

01:59:17.400 You know, the real story is just as wild a ride, if not, if not more so.

01:59:23.840 I'm really happy to see that too because after I did my Elizabeth Bathory episode there's been a

01:59:29.720 couple books have come out in the last couple years that are like the blood countess she's a

01:59:33.420 vampire and I'm just like oh really I did an episode didn't everyone hear it haven't we all

01:59:39.060 changed our minds no I can't believe that they didn't listen to it we like need to get that

01:59:44.780 we need to get on to that but um you are going to be coming back when that book comes out because

01:59:49.660 I'm excited to read it and to talk to you about it.

01:59:51.940 So listeners, please know.

01:59:53.480 And thank you so much for that kind invitation

01:59:55.000 and for the work that you do.

01:59:56.320 I think it's just amazing what you do with this podcast

01:59:58.520 and getting the word out about all of these.

02:00:02.600 Like most of them are like really neglected figures.

02:00:06.280 And I mean, it's just amazing the work you do.

02:00:09.000 So thank you.

02:00:09.820 Thank you so much.

02:00:10.920 And I hope everybody knows like whether you're,

02:00:14.760 you can be team Fredegund, you can be team Brunhild,

02:00:17.620 you can be team both.

02:00:19.660 You know, people don't have to choose.

02:00:21.420 But do you have a favorite?

02:00:23.180 You know, I have been accused of being Team Bernholt.

02:00:25.220 And I think I'm like, no, wait.

02:00:28.020 It's just because there were slightly more sources from her life.

02:00:31.520 And it is like having to choose between your children.

02:00:34.000 A lot of days, I feel more like a Freda gun.

02:00:35.780 Not that I have anywhere near the, like, nerve.

02:00:38.520 Like, you know, she had ice in her veins.

02:00:40.500 Like, but I want to be a Freda gun.

02:00:42.820 Do you know what I mean? 0.95

02:00:43.520 Like, when I'm in a grocery line, I want to be like, I could just assassinate that person 0.59

02:00:48.500 that stole my parking lot. 0.58

02:00:49.660 um, spot, my parking spot. But unfortunately, no, I'm not afraid of gun as much as I would

02:00:58.520 like to be, but I so admire kind of her hotspot. Like, but at the same time, I think, you know,

02:01:06.040 I'm always rooting for Brunhild, particularly when I was like, yes, like you're standing up

02:01:11.240 for other women, like, yay you. So it's really, it depends on what day you catch me on. There

02:01:16.080 definitely some days when i'm like team brunhild all the way and then there are other times where

02:01:21.360 i'm like fred again fred again fred again i think it's like the angel and the devil on your shoulder

02:01:26.300 but it's like brunhild and fred again where it's just like i want my parking spot and then it's

02:01:30.720 like let's just like talk kindly to somebody and then like gently get what we want by working

02:01:35.280 together it's like situational who who one wants to embody yeah yeah are you still firmly team

02:01:43.920 Fredegund? I can't not be, you know, I went into your book and I'm like, I'm going to read this

02:01:48.360 book from a Brunhild point of view. And I was reading it because it starts off with Brunhild

02:01:53.160 and then, and then your chapter, you're just like, and then some, a servant was there and I'm like,

02:01:57.780 oh my God, who's a servant? And then it's like, and then he loved her. I'm like,

02:02:00.660 and at the end you're like, and her name was Fred again. I'm like, yes, it was Fred again.

02:02:05.340 I was just like, no. And you're reading this from Brunhild. I'm just like, oh, I love her so much.

02:02:09.420 so like in reading the book and talking to you I'm definitely you know I don't I don't want to

02:02:16.660 have to be one over the other but I will say Fred again is maybe my favorite person I've ever

02:02:21.160 profiled on the podcast she just hits every sweet spot for me so it's unfair to put anyone against

02:02:27.340 her but I will say Brynhild I have a new appreciation for you know at first I read

02:02:31.700 and I'm just like she's the one who's working against Fred again she's my enemy but it's like

02:02:35.800 no, no. She's also a cool and interesting person. The men are the enemy. Both of them

02:02:43.820 are the heroes. So. Well, I appreciate you having an open mind.

02:02:48.860 Thank you so much. This is something that listeners have requested for a while.

02:02:52.980 So I'm glad to, you know, give Brunhild her due and I'm glad that she

02:02:56.840 takes her place in the pantheon of vulgar history. Oh, thank you so much for having me.

02:03:05.800 so shelly's book is called the dark queens the bloody rivalry that forged the medieval world

02:03:14.260 it's an incredibly good book it's really like the story that we just talked about you heard

02:03:19.520 how she described it like she describes it all so well so it's fascinating history just like

02:03:23.660 bananas plot twists but it's like actual stuff that actually happened and she writes it in a

02:03:28.020 really accessible way where i think you'll enjoy it if you're like a professor of history

02:03:32.380 if you're a person who just likes to read random books like it's such a good book um paperback is

02:03:38.640 available and as we get more information about her elizabeth bathory book the blood countess

02:03:44.500 rest assured i will let you know but you can keep up with shelly what she's up to

02:03:48.380 at shellypuhack.com if you don't know how to spell that it's in the show notes as well

02:03:53.600 and i also just want to let you know that you can keep up with me at instagram.com

02:03:59.920 slash vulgar history. I don't know why I described it like that. It's just at vulgar history pod

02:04:03.740 on Instagram, not vulgar history on Instagram. That's an erotic account run by other people

02:04:09.340 who are not affiliated with me, but I wish them all the best. I'm also on various other social

02:04:14.040 medias at vulgar history, like wherever you are, I'm probably there and you can message me if you

02:04:19.700 have ideas. You know what? Let me know if you're team Fred or team Brun, as I'm thinking of her

02:04:24.900 now or team both. I'm curious. I'm for sure. I'm going to put a poll on Instagram when this episode

02:04:30.340 comes up. You can also, because you know, festive holiday season, gift giving is upon us. You can

02:04:35.880 get merchandise for this podcast at vulgarhistory.com slash store. As I'm speaking, I'm fairly

02:04:42.740 confident there's a sale, a discounted sale going on. And if there's not one going on today,

02:04:47.420 probably today or the next day or the next day, because this time of year, there's constantly

02:04:52.040 sales. That's hosted on TeePublic. If you're outside the US, you can get better shipping

02:04:56.160 if you go to vulgarhistory.redbubble.com. Hopefully by the time you're hearing this,

02:05:00.860 I've got some festive holiday merch available, which is designed by Karen Moynihan from the

02:05:05.540 Double Love podcast and says tits season. So if you want to get the vulgar history stuff to get

02:05:11.100 you through the holidays, that's there. You can also support the podcast on Patreon at patreon.com

02:05:15.840 slash annfosterwriter, where for $1 a month, you get early ad free access to all episodes.

02:05:20.160 For $5 or more a month, you get that, the early ad free access, as well as bonus episodes,

02:05:25.500 things like Vulgar Peace Theater, where I talk about costume dramas with Alison Epstein and

02:05:29.380 Lana Wood Johnson. We're about to do one about the line in winter, which is going to be an

02:05:36.620 interesting discussion. And you can hear why when we get to that. But also I do the after show is

02:05:41.480 there where sometimes I have extended conversations with podcast guests. So this asshole, we're talking 0.99

02:05:46.600 about men from history. And also if you join the Patreon, we're at like 480 members right now. And 0.99

02:05:51.920 I have vowed that when we get to 500 members, I will do a John Knox episode of So This Asshole.

02:05:57.680 You can join the Patreon for free as well, if you just want to like

02:06:01.240 get the numbers up to make me do that. Anyway, you can also get transcripts of recent episodes

02:06:06.420 available at vulgarhistory.com. Thank you to Aveline Malek from The Wordery for providing

02:06:10.640 these transcripts to our recent episodes. And I do want to let you know, with the festive gift

02:06:15.260 giving season upon us, et cetera. I do have a gift guide that I've been updating constantly

02:06:20.120 on Instagram at Vulgar History. So there's a highlight there. That's the Vulgar History

02:06:24.460 gift guide where I'm highlighting small businesses that sell things that I think would be good gifts

02:06:29.760 to give someone in your life that is maybe you that are Vulgar History reminiscent. For instance,

02:06:34.800 there's a cross-stitch pattern of Fredegand that you can, I have the link on there to buy that.

02:06:40.260 mary queen of scots ghost dolls uh various things and then also if you want to get somebody the

02:06:46.740 gift of me a video of me i'm i've joined cameo just for this holiday season so if you want to

02:06:53.340 get a little video from me heparin may or may not appear she her contract stipulates that she will

02:06:59.540 not be tied down anyway i'm on cameo as well and then also we have our brand partner she's heparin

02:07:04.660 she might show up just like that if you get a video from me on cameo she might not anyway a

02:07:08.660 brand partner common era jewelry is another great option for gift giving as well this is 100%

02:07:14.940 woman-owned business using 100% recycled gold and they make beautiful pieces that are inspired by

02:07:21.900 women from history and women from mythology including people like Boudicca Cleopatra Agrippina

02:07:29.060 and Anne Boleyn and as you're listening to this I do believe that they make pieces in like solid

02:07:35.000 gold. And they also have a more affordable gold vermeil. And I believe the Anne Boleyn

02:07:38.980 gold vermeil should now be available. And if you're going to be buying some pieces from there,

02:07:43.680 please remember, you can always get 15% off all items from Common Era by going to

02:07:49.080 commonera.com slash vulgar or using code vulgar at checkout. And I've got a really exciting

02:07:55.820 episode next week. It's a festive holiday spectacular. There is some interesting

02:08:00.640 connections in that episode to this week's episode. Fredigan and Brunhild do come up,

02:08:06.220 so stay tuned for that. And until next time, keep your pants on and your tits out. 0.99

02:08:14.320 Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Anne Foster and edited by Christina Lumagi. 0.98

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Vulgar History - November 29, 2023

Brunhild, War Queen Of Ancient France

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Transcript