00:02:08.140Although there are other grisly ends for other people, but I'm going to say it's pretty rare in this sequence of episodes that anything's going to turn out well for anybody.
00:02:15.800I mean, spoilers for the French Revolution.0.61
00:02:18.120For women in the French Revolution.0.58
00:02:20.080And actually to keep it all lighthearted, because that's what we try to do in this podcast.0.79
00:02:23.840I have made a bingo card where you can cross off the people that seem to reoccur in every episode
00:02:30.180in this chunk of episodes. You can find the bingo card. It's on my Patreon. It's free
00:02:34.100at patreon.com slash Anne Foster Writer. It's pinned right at the very top. And so that's,
00:02:39.440I mean, if you need an excuse to join my Patreon, get the bingo card because it's like you want to
00:02:43.060mark off like we're going to be circling around the same topics because the time period of the
00:02:47.740French Revolution was a couple years. The events we're talking about last week, this week, next
00:02:53.080week, but subsequent several weeks, it's, I want to say like a year and a half of just
00:02:57.540like, you know, there's this event happened and this event happened, like, and all the
00:03:02.640people were talking about were all up in these events, but sometimes on different sides of
00:03:06.300these events, sometimes witnessing it firsthand, sometimes hearing about it later. So just
00:03:12.320because we're going to be talking about the same events from all different people's point
00:03:14.900of view, I felt like the bingo card is a nice way to kind of put it together. And I think
00:03:18.600for me, at least going through different people's stories, which are all, I mean, they
00:03:23.060all experience these same events, but their lives are all so different. It really helps me
00:03:27.060understand the French Revolution a bit better. So last week, we were joined by Leah Redmond-Chang
00:03:32.700to help hold my hand and really begin looking at the revolution itself, which is such a convoluted,
00:03:39.000chaotic time. This week, we have another guide on hand, and I'm really excited for you to meet
00:03:44.640this person if you haven't already listened to her podcast. So it's Claire Mead, and you can find
00:03:49.880all about Claire at her website, which is clairmade.com. But just so you know, Claire is
00:03:54.420the premier person who knows about women with swords, queer women and swords in history. Like
00:04:01.880on her YouTube, she describes it as like arms and armor, women's histories and the weird and
00:04:07.680unexpected ways they intersect during the chaotic history lesson. And obviously that's the energy
00:04:13.660we're bringing to this podcast as well, the chaotic history part of it. But Claire is here to talk
00:04:17.840about French women with sores and queer elements. And that is what the story is all about. So I0.99
00:04:25.560couldn't have done this without her. She's also speaks French, knows a lot about the French
00:04:29.980revolution history. And so she's also going to kind of supplement all of our, we're all learning
00:04:34.600together about the French revolution. Claire is here to help out. And we're talking about a real
00:04:40.620fashion girly from the French Revolution era. The one and only Théron de Maricourt.
00:04:47.860So enjoy this discussion with myself and Claire Mead.
00:04:54.300So I am here today joined by Claire Mead, who is an expert on many things, but one of them
00:04:59.820is ladies with swords. Or when I say ladies with swords enthusiast, I'm not sure.
00:05:04.060essentially yes ladies with sword enthusiasm uh enthusiasts and enthusiasm uh swordswoman
00:05:10.200historian i do like sword lesbian historian uh sometimes because it just you know encapsulates0.59
00:05:15.140the whole queer feminist shenanigans of it all lots different uh completely self self-made
00:05:22.840just just completely invented titles for myself self-proclaimed sword lesbian historian uh said0.72
00:05:28.920a friend of mine, Sasha. Perfect. Perfect. Well, and that's exactly who I needed to invite on this0.50
00:05:35.280podcast today because we're talking about, we're talking about a person where there's some gender0.95
00:05:39.640shenanigans. Swords are definitely involved. And this is where I really, I'm just starting1.00
00:05:46.160doing this sort of mini series about like women of the French revolution. And I'm starting to
00:05:52.080feel more confident in my knowledge about the French revolution, but there's still some stuff
00:05:55.580i need to be explained and yeah i mean i will confess as a french person you just look at the
00:06:02.440french revolution and you know even from our perspective wow it can be a mess like there's
00:06:08.320just so many so much infighting so we're just like about faces in the space of a few months
00:06:13.880everything can change like 19 you know 1792 1793 just like so much stuff happens in the course of
00:06:23.080a few months and just like oh my goodness uh so there are just just navigating the french
00:06:28.720revolution alone is is highly commendable making it out all in one piece it's just so many um teams
00:06:37.320or factions and people keep changing which faction they're in and yeah just stick to
00:06:44.400faction please just make it easy on the future historians we beg you
00:06:49.100so actually and i'm gonna also you're here because you are a french person um and so there's some
00:06:58.680oui oui oh my gosh so first of all pronunciation i'm glad you're here but also just explaining
00:07:04.720some french stuff so we're gonna jump in the person we're talking about today is known as
00:07:09.260tyroine de mary core which was not her name but that's how she's known so that's what we're gonna
00:07:15.840call her in this episode so can you i didn't warn you about this could you explain she was born
00:07:21.600um she was a walloon person what what is that we're entering kind of not just french but also
00:07:30.320like belgian territory in history because essentially she was born in specific region
00:07:36.060which would correspond today to north belgium um and so it's that kind of interesting thing
00:07:42.780of her being associated to obviously the French Revolution and French history but also there's
00:07:47.360different questions that do sometimes come up when you talk about these different historic figures
00:07:51.240of actually she was technically born in as another country and could probably be considered as
00:07:56.840as Belgian uh so the word only um you know refers to that specific uh that specific region
00:08:04.540hopefully I'm not getting this too wrong and I'm not going to get attacked by
00:08:37.800people are going to be like oh she speaks with an accent that means she's dumb like so that comes up1.00
00:08:42.860as well with her yeah it's interesting like already that kind of policing of kind of women0.95
00:08:48.920activists during the french revolution and you're just like always like never quite doing enough
00:08:55.220they're never ever quite fitting into people's expectations of them and funnily enough the
00:09:01.080standards and expectations just seem to rise uh you know as as much as they gain notoriety just
00:09:07.180like they can never win essentially you know you're gonna gonna police olympia despite all the
00:09:13.520all the amazing stuff she's uh she's contributed to and and same for the Hawaiian arena it's just
00:09:18.500you can't win well and it's i mean you see this play out contemporarily as well where i i mean i'll
00:09:26.340just speak to my own personal experience but also myself i don't know other female podcasters or
00:09:30.940content creators like people leave comments where it's like if you can't criticize like the content0.51
00:09:36.140of my show then it's then they say oh well you say um too much or something yeah and um one of my
00:09:42.080my online i don't know acquaintances meredith constant she does tiktok videos and things and
00:09:47.620she she was just posting one day and she's like people so she was i think they told her she said
00:09:51.880um or like or something and she's being really conscious and trying to edit that out and then
00:09:55.340people started criticizing something else about her and i was like people are going to criticize
00:09:58.940you because you're a woman like yeah you you could do the absolute most perfect diction scripted thing
00:10:05.820people will be like oh she's it's too perfect she's she uses too much like like ultimately like
00:10:11.540people tyroine and then also a lot of people today ultimately they don't want to hear her0.90
00:10:16.660raising her voice because she's a woman but the thing they're going to criticize it's like oh she
00:10:19.620has an accent yeah yeah that's the thing that they're focusing on as an excuse for not saying
00:10:24.040it's just literally just because she's a woman i've definitely had these instances as well of
00:10:29.180you know people commenting on videos being like oh like is she a woman like because i'm0.99
00:10:35.820butch and like i guess i've just never seen a general boring woman with short hair before and0.98
00:10:40.340it's just like a mind-blowing experience then but then on videos of you know women who present0.98
00:10:46.020or femme they'll just like be criticizing oh why do you have to have your makeup done this way
00:10:51.460why do you need to be dressing this way that's not what a historian looks like it's just like
00:10:55.800what do you think historian looks like yeah i have this drag persona that i use to make fun
00:11:02.780of the patriarchy museums and heritage and he is and she kind of beard wearing tweed wearing
00:11:08.680museum mansplainer and i love making fun of what people think you know an authoritative figure in
00:11:15.500history is supposed to look like because most time it is actually a very loud confident uh beady
00:11:21.660bearded man but wearing treat and wearing tweed so you know be that i guess we should just all be
00:11:27.960wearing yeah exactly and if we are people like why are you wearing tweed that's you know like
00:11:34.720if someone doesn't like you they'll find something to criticize always there's tweed
00:11:38.580haters out there uh yeah exactly but i'm i'm impressed today and also back then by anyone who
00:11:44.860speaks more than one language and if they stumble in their third or fourth language it's like i
00:11:51.920only speak English so I'm not gonna judge so she's so she's born in basically Belgium yeah yeah
00:11:59.500essentially there's three there's three kind of like Wallonia like the Wallon region is like one
00:12:04.420of three regions of Belgium alongside Flanders and Brussels that's the kind of best way I could
00:12:09.380summarize it without hopefully the Belgians who listen to your podcast coming out after me so
00:12:14.600that's how we can best summarize that but it would have been the more yeah yeah so she's born in
00:12:21.0001762. So, you know, during this revolutionary era, but well before the actual French revolution
00:12:28.300actually started. But, you know, if you do the math, I mean, she's like in her twenties when
00:12:31.700that's going to actually start. And actually, well, I guess, cause I said before her name
00:12:37.560wasn't really Turin de Maricor, but we can explain at this point why she is known as that.
00:12:42.680She was born, her name was Anne-Joseph Turwain, which is a Wallonne name. And then it was sort
00:12:49.400frenchified to um to royn which is just kind of pronouncing it a bit differently and then de
00:12:57.520mary core came later um because the when she became an enemy of the french revolution they
00:13:04.500wanted to make her seem like an aristocrat right yeah absolutely they just really took the idea of
00:13:10.920just like oh you come from marco we're going to make that mary core make it sound a bit like
00:13:16.220frenchify it and make it sound a bit fancier and then we're just gonna conflate that with like
00:13:20.640we're not being disingenuous we're saying you come from this town it just so happens that it
00:13:26.960makes you sound like you have an aristocratic name at a time at which it's somewhat maybe a
00:13:32.880bad move to have an aristocratic name so you know you know just a vibe just a just a feeling uh
00:13:39.240probably not not a great idea it's uh it's definitely an interesting form of of kind of
00:13:45.400slander to say we're just going to give you this name in the press and we're going to suddenly
00:13:50.620give you a whole new identity that makes you pass off as a noble when she was definitely anything
00:13:55.540but she was from this well like wealthy-ish but still peasant family from my understanding
00:14:01.960oh exactly and so she so just so everybody knows we're calling her Turin de Maricor that's kind
00:14:07.020of become her brand that's that's her name but that was not that was not her name her name was
00:14:11.820Anjoseph Terwain but we'll call her Terwain because first of all that's a great name yeah
00:14:16.460and secondly everyone is called Anne and Marie and I'm excited to call somebody something else
00:14:21.580please please we need it we need it desperately Olympe de Gouges also changed her name I'm like
00:14:27.720thank you yes thank you Olympe love it exactly actually she had a sense of kind of pizzazz and
00:14:33.700drama like you like Olympe de Gouges that's good branding you're gonna be remembered you're gonna
00:14:39.120to be you're gonna feature in the 2024 olympics ceremony did she actually great question um i
00:14:47.340watched the olympics i watched the opening ceremony which was the absolute most french
00:14:51.640thing i've ever seen in my life i loved it i loved it it was so strange and so french was was she in
00:14:59.260that part where they were like unveiling statues of women was she one of them so i i don't speak
00:15:04.300out of turn but i definitely believe that she was because there's the part of the opening ceremony
00:15:09.100ceremonies well you're googling it i will just let everyone know during the opening ceremonies
00:15:13.140when they're like and here's there's not enough statues of french women so we're going to reveal
00:15:16.900these statues and they did them one at a time and every time they revealed one i'm like is it
00:15:20.100someone i've done a podcast on no is it someone i've done a podcast on no i'm like is it someone
00:15:24.080i've heard of also no so all the women they revealed i'm like none of those names i know
00:15:29.120you're being directly called out for all the women you haven't done podcasts on it but yes
00:15:33.020she did feature she was one of 10 women 10 women guys there were 10 women throughout all the French
00:15:39.320history uh incredible uh and I think it was alongside uh people like Simone Weil but also
00:15:45.480Christine de Pizan uh one of my personal faves uh medieval uh well I mean she wouldn't have
00:15:51.960considered herself a feminist probably but just like a major a major woman uh writer from the
00:15:56.520medieval period uh so yeah she was definitely interesting to see her there and there were always
00:16:02.940people saying well instead of her we should have had other people it's always like when you've got
00:16:08.540just 10 women to represent all the french history for the rest of the world who are you gonna pick
00:16:14.420uh it's it's always a bit of a tricky a tricky one i feel like the the olympics were like oh we
00:16:19.580have to choose oh her name is olymp let's choose her yes that's also yeah there was a bit of a kind
00:16:25.620of, yeah, a vibe with that. But just to compare, I mean, Olympe de Gouges, like, which again was
00:16:32.740the previous podcast episode in this series, was, she is now seen, as we talked in that episode,
00:16:38.900myself and my guests then, people are teaching her stuff in university courses, like she's seen
00:16:43.480as kind of a major voice, a major philosopher. Terrain is not really remembered as much at all,
00:16:50.840And we'll talk about why that is. But I think part of it is kind of her foreignness. And also, it's just kind of a messier story. And she was also because she was like from this kind of wealthy, but also peasant background. She was never really taken seriously to the same way Olympe de Gouges was.
00:17:10.960yeah i think that's a big part of it it's all these women who were involved in the early days
00:17:18.040of the revolution who were part of the salon and leading their own salon which they were kind of
00:17:23.240discussing enlightenment ideals and ideals of equality and you know and and writing about these
00:17:29.280things they had the privilege to be able to do that in the first place and you do definitely have0.73
00:17:35.720a class divide between the women who actually had the time to devote themselves to this writing
00:17:41.900and advocacy and the women who were working class women and who had to struggle to survive as the
00:17:49.120one did and definitely didn't necessarily have the backing of their family or partner in order
00:17:55.720to just then also maintain their legacy so it's definitely an interesting case study between the
00:18:01.740too like who gets who gets remembered and for what reasons and so i'll just kind of go through like
00:18:08.580the main meat of this discussion is going to be the french revolution stuff but we'll go through
00:18:12.780what her background is because that is important and explains who she was and where she was coming
00:18:16.580from so um she had two brothers pierre joseph and joseph which is like and her name is anne joseph
00:18:23.820so like get it together French people it's I'm there are five names Joseph Joseph you call
00:18:32.920Joseph they're all like yes um anyway she had two brothers one we hear about them later so
00:18:38.440her mother died when she was a girl and so she was sent to live with her aunt in Liège and was
00:18:43.500put into a convent school where she learned to sew but about a year after she began school her
00:18:48.420aunt got married and stopped paying for her school so then there's kind of a period of time
00:18:53.860where tyroine is she's kind of like shuttled around you know to an aunt to her stepmother
00:19:00.240to her paternal grandparents it's just kind of like you're a girl no one really has money
00:19:04.000no one treated her well it's kind of the beginning of cinderella sort of vibes yeah it's definitely
00:19:10.920like you're just a girl we're just gonna we're not just you're just gonna ping pong around these
00:19:14.980various yeah situations and uh you know just be a bit of a passive person in your own life
00:19:20.540yeah until that point and that sets her up well i mean well it sets her up to want to leave but
00:19:26.540the fact that she did leave i think speaks to her sort of independent spirit and she wants something
00:19:30.200better she runs away to um limborg do you know where that is have you ever heard of that i i i've
00:19:36.780not heard of that i've heard of the age uh but limborg no not not at all it was somewhere where
00:19:43.340there's cows because she worked as a cow herd for a year which is a interesting skill I don't think
00:19:49.040just anyone could do it yeah no definitely that's it's the kind of thing where you're like you know
00:19:53.780during lockdown you're kind of like oh I want to be in the countryside and I want to go farm
00:19:58.120homestead and then just realize actually better off to staying as a a little fantasy there not1.00
00:20:04.480actually doing it and that is what happens to her exactly she goes to be a cow herd for a year and1.00
00:20:08.540then she's like actually i'm gonna go back to leah i'd rather live in in a city people have1.00
00:20:13.280heard of yeah um and she worked as a seamstress because remember she learned how to sew at the
00:20:17.520convent school and then oh like something good happens to her for once for the first time so a
00:20:24.400woman asked her to come with her to antwerp to help care for her daughter so to be like a governess
00:20:29.240type person but then because it's her life the woman then abandoned her at the inn that they
00:20:35.200were staying at after a few weeks so she's just stuck in antwerp which i listeners to my podcast
00:20:41.780will know my feelings about antwerp so i'll just let you know my name is ann and when i was a young
00:20:48.500girl my family went on like a european trip and one of the places we went was antwerp and my family
00:20:53.440in a loving and yet annoying way we're like oh antwerp oh you're you're you're an ann you're a
00:20:59.260twerp so i just have like so i'm like of course something bad happened in antwerp that's the city
00:21:04.920yeah that's the city that's like yeah it's directly victimizing you personally
00:21:10.400people named ann do not thrive in antwerp and her name is ann joseph so anyway it's just like
00:21:16.620god damn antwerp so anyway but luckily luckily something actually good happens so a woman named
00:21:23.820madame colbert met her or noticed her or took pity on her and was like can you come be the0.98
00:21:28.380governess to my children and then this did actually happen she was 16 years old at this time by the
00:21:33.080way god yeah imagine just being already just being abandoned at 16 in you know Antwerp and then yeah
00:21:40.680this happens to you at least it's just yeah but here you know something good happened in Antwerp
00:21:44.960Madame Colbert took her in so suddenly Tyrone has like options she has like someone is helping her
00:21:51.260someone's looking out for her so she taught the children and she also while she was there was able
00:21:55.380to study operatic singing because I guess they're traveling around to various European capitals
00:21:59.560so she gets to travel she's with this family she's taking singing lessons presumably because
00:22:04.620she has an interest in that and a skill in that so good and then eventually they ended up in london
00:22:11.480where madame colbert had a house um and she met a rich englishman name unknown what i'm reading
00:22:17.960here just says like a rich englishman rich englishman um you know plot point number 50
00:22:24.360just you know just let's wheel him in he doesn't need a name it's fine i think it's kind of0.91
00:22:29.820refreshing though when you think about it because the amount of time women are just relegated to
00:22:34.140just being the wife or you know just like you know the lover in a man's story so this time
00:22:39.900hey it's kind of payback time i suppose especially for an englishman they're always named and things
00:22:45.900yeah so basically the englishman the rich englishman was just like he was head over heels
00:22:51.160for her. One night when Madame Colbert was out, the Englishman entered the home begging for Tyrone
00:22:56.720to come and elope with him. So according to her account, which she did write later, she says she
00:23:01.680declined and then she was abducted and taken by force. So you know what, I'll take her word for
00:23:06.320that comma. And also if she had agreed to go, I could see why somebody later on would claim
00:23:11.120they were taken by force to kind of make themselves look less scandalous or something.
00:23:16.180Yeah, which is a big part of when you're later writing a memoir of your life, right? For many kind of these illustrious women, worried women, either they kind of take this opportunity to kind of justify their past actions or kind of embellish their CV in lots of different ways.
00:23:33.680and you could just like never really really be 100% sure about these autobiographies and
00:23:41.060their intentions because most time he feels that it was really meant to be kind of like an
00:23:45.280entertaining read more than anything else that's true she wanted to sound interesting but also
00:23:50.260like with time i find your own memory can change like what she's what you could remember it
00:23:56.740differently than what it actually was anyway she she and the englishman in some context
00:24:01.940leave together and he said um when i come of age and inherit my fortune like we can get married
00:24:07.900and whatever and so he so actually that's notable because he said like when he became of age and
00:24:13.640inherited his fortune which means he was not 45 years old which makes me feel a bit better about
00:24:17.800all of this yeah that's also refreshing i'm gonna say yeah especially given how old she was yeah
00:24:24.100because she's like 16 17 years old so they did run off together um and so he did become of age
00:24:30.440inherited his fortune and they went to paris to just be a glamorous young couple there um but
00:24:37.880so actually i just want to say what i'm reading from is my main source here is the encyclopedia
00:24:44.460of women in history essay by david s newhall and it's mostly factual but sometimes he throws in
00:24:49.400some real opinion pieces it's the real nuggets of uh of wisdom or wisdom in brackets so he says
00:24:57.280she quickly caught on to his lavish ways so so he's like and we can picture something like this
00:25:04.220today too it's just like a young man who suddenly gets his inheritance doesn't know how to spend it
00:25:09.420well and is just not she grew up like various levels of poor really so i think she would have
00:25:15.960more respect for money and understanding and he was just like well spend my money so yeah it's
00:25:21.580interesting how already the kind of class class device and all those different questions she
00:25:26.180she'd talk about later in her life already coming up if she's being confronted to just like0.93
00:25:31.380just you know complete disregard for for for money and like yeah so it's not the relationship
00:25:40.920not going great and eventually what happens is 1787 he returned to england leaving her in paris
00:25:47.800but not penniless um he left her with 200 000 livres which she invested in stocks and jewels
00:25:55.540so she had she had some savings there she had stuff i'd be like i would love to listen to
00:26:01.400dear whiteness financial advice podcast just like invest it all in stocks and jewels guys that's
00:26:07.700that's where i'm saying jewels do not depreciate like yeah so again like from this essay at some
00:26:17.100point she gave birth to a daughter francois-louise septemville we don't know i presume the father was
00:26:24.740the englishman um but the name septumville is a mystery yeah strange um but the daughter
00:26:32.100the daughter died like as a young so she was abandoned in 1787 she gave birth to a daughter
00:26:37.140in 1788 the daughter died shortly thereafter so this is a sequence of event um the englishman
00:26:43.240refused to acknowledge paternity around the same time she also contracted syphilis potentially from
00:26:49.000the englishman yeah great the englishman left more than yeah 200 000 just also complete lack
00:26:56.540of sexual i mean which is like definitely so much a case at the time of just no awareness of sexual
00:27:02.420health whatsoever so he left her pregnant with syphilis and some stocks and jewels so she was
00:27:10.020allegedly at this time the cure for syphilis which was mercury which doesn't actually
00:27:15.980cure anything but does take away the symptoms i presume that's why people thought it cured it i
00:27:23.020don't know yeah it's just one of those things where you just kind of look at it and think well
00:27:28.020even with the gift of hindsight guys i i just don't really i don't really know what people
00:27:34.380are thinking i mean being at just the vagina museum i can tell you the the amount of completely
00:27:40.820just like strange concepts and remedies that people come up with yeah when it relates to0.50
00:27:46.860just sexual health and women's health is just absolutely mind-boggling you're a trustee at
00:27:53.740the vagina museum yeah i love that i when i was in london i wish i could have interacted with them
00:28:01.020but i i followed them on social media i'm a big fan that's wonderful yay support vagina museum
00:28:06.520everyone it's uh it's doing great work uh it was it was relevant okay i had to i had to shout them
00:28:13.020out well no and i think i don't i don't know i don't know specifically but i'm gonna guess
00:28:18.320that at this time the 18th century so much of what medicine what was happening medically
00:28:22.720was based on what the romans had taught where it's just kind of like leeches humors humans yeah
00:28:29.740yeah so i feel like mercury was it's not like oh this is the latest technology i think it's like
00:28:35.400well someone 700 years ago said this would work so we're just just still trying it basically we're
00:28:40.560just going to go with it yeah and i think at the time i was reading a bit about kind of 18th century
00:28:44.580kind of medical history and how it relates to women and there's still definitely talk about
00:28:49.780the humors and kind of that you know being phlegmatic and these different ideas of kind of
00:28:56.520being a bit more kind of uh a bit more passive and and decadent and kind of how it also could
00:29:04.020relates to kind of negative things attributed to women which we can touch upon later but yeah
00:29:10.340definitely still quite a lot of things that like quite antiquated uh and yeah not very not very
00:29:16.300useful and so if you're somebody who has syphilis um and you're her so you're cured supposedly by
00:29:23.900mercury but thereafter she complained of pains digestive problems and fatigue probably the
00:29:29.260symptoms of untreated syphilis so she has basically some health problems but i'm gonna say
00:29:34.860who didn't in paris at this time because as you just explained medical care not great yeah not
00:29:43.760fantastic not great um so at some point around like after the english guy left so she crafted
00:29:51.820a relationship with a 60-year-old Marquis de Préssin. So he's a counselor of the Parliament
00:29:58.880of Paris. Much about their relationship remains a mystery. Well, basically, he was just kind of
00:30:05.220supporting her financially. I don't find this... I should mention this essay I'm reading is from
00:30:10.240the 1990s. So basically, he supported her. And I think it's like a classic sort of courtesan,
00:30:17.900like being like a sex worker but only for one person type relationship yeah it's a kind of like
00:30:24.280he's essentially her sugar daddy uh in that in that sense and kind of i think it's situational
00:30:30.680many women would have probably found themselves in that time especially working class women of
00:30:36.100just like having having to rely on older rich men and you know what thank you to those older
00:30:42.520rich men for supporting these women because exactly i mean thank you it's women just get
00:30:47.600your bag i mean just you know yeah 60 year olds and you know in uh in the 18th century yeah just
00:30:53.580take advantage as much as you can so she operated under the alias mademoiselle campanado
00:31:00.680it's a great it's a great name but also like where where are any of these names coming from
00:31:06.620like her child septonville she's just choosing names and she's got a gift yeah so she when she
00:31:12.520was working as a courtesan she used the alias mademoiselle campanado and she drew attention
01:09:16.040it's bad so she was taken into this prison she was encouraged to write her memoirs which is where
01:09:22.440we have these memoirs from so this guy um francois de blanc with an okay guy yeah well at least one
01:09:32.280okay guy it's like thank god he's he's okay yeah we've got our one token okay guy so he
01:09:39.640interviewed her over a month and concluded like she's not a spy like um she was tortured and like
01:09:46.580that's why she said some of the things that she said because um she's being tortured um the press
01:09:51.560that was slandering her were unreliable he just grew like he had affection for her and arranged
01:09:58.240for her release after especially after discovering all of her various health issues that she still
01:10:02.940had from the syphilis but also she had depression insomnia migraines coughing up blood yeah it's
01:10:11.280it's when you realize also to some extent like the intersection with disability history the fact
01:10:17.880that she's doing all of this with a chronic chronic illnesses i mean she's just doing doing
01:10:24.440so much was just like such you know her with her health being the way it is exactly and like i the
01:10:31.500thing about the health we talked about earlier on and this is just a reminder but this is also like
01:10:35.580her mental health um a physician called examine her noted that her mental state quote justifies
01:10:41.340every apprehension so basically just like she's like and obviously there's not mental health care
01:10:46.980like everyone it's just leeches and humors like she's gone through enough like she's got ptsd for
01:10:53.240from 17 different situations by now obviously like she's not thriving health-wise but she was
01:11:01.060released because of this okay guy was like you know what she's not a spy and i i appreciate that
01:11:05.900of him that they arrested her thinking she was this like revolutionary whatever and it's just0.98
01:11:10.960like no this is just like this is just like a sick lady who likes to make outfits she wants to learn
01:11:16.740about philosophy yeah it's all that deep guys just come on she likes to sing sometimes like this is
01:11:23.660not an enemy of any country anyway so she was released and she's like you know what back to
01:11:29.560paris which is an interesting choice come back yeah but um news of her captivity had preceded
01:11:35.360her and she's welcomed as a hero like a hero of the revolution uh she was invited to speak at the
01:11:40.600jacobin club she described what happened to her and she was called one of the first amazons of
01:11:46.000liberty yeah so there's the amazons there's the amazons yes and like amazons is kind of interesting
01:11:52.860because it's like all these kind of like figures of antiquity
01:11:57.640would have been very much related to the former regime, right?
01:12:02.640Like you have like whole 18th century movement,
01:12:05.580you have everything that's related to the monarchy
01:12:07.260is very much steeped in the kind of mythological representations.
01:12:11.060At the time, Amazon was just kind of like,0.76
01:12:14.000it was just like almost like a blanket term for warrior women in general.0.99
01:12:19.140and uh yeah and just kind of like heroic heroic exceptional women and this is like what her
01:12:26.320outfit had been wanting had been presenting her as and now they're like you know what you are an
01:12:30.920amazon you are a warrior woman and she's like yes thank you yeah yeah she's being appreciated in the
01:12:36.100way that she wanted to be and then she so she at this point it seems like she's more because of her
01:12:41.340time in prison like she's more accepted i guess or taken more seriously and so she takes that and
01:12:46.840she's like well here's what i'm gonna do campaign for women's rights to bear arms1.00
01:12:50.200like weapons um she argued for the establishment of a battalion of women to defend the city this
01:12:56.660is like you're so excited it's like women and swords like yeah i love it yes so she wanted to
01:13:04.940to establish a battalion of women called the amazons basically she's just like let's give us0.96
01:13:09.940guns give us swords like give us outfits and we will do this give us all the yeah give us all
01:13:15.460stuff basically yeah and it's uh yeah it's it's great see it's really interesting as well because1.00
01:13:21.460um there's definitely there's even like obviously lots of other women um kind of take up these1.00
01:13:28.040petitions for you know a battalion of warrior women uh it's interesting to see that those kind1.00
01:13:34.260of impulses even kind of predated the french revolution you have the chevalier deal i know
01:13:39.880you've done a previous podcast on who uh so when in terms of uh when she was obviously the monarchy0.96
01:13:46.660was still you know stable um had proposed sending over a battalion of amazons that she would
01:13:53.580lead to help in you know help you know uh as allies in uh the american and a revolutionary
01:14:00.140war and then she was told no and she tried like in the same year actually 1792 she tried uh you
01:14:07.400know a bit later yeah something uh something yesterday was the idea of like hey so i'm back
01:14:13.140with the same idea uh how about this time no i mean some theories that they were kind of like
01:14:19.860yes if you get funding for it which is almost like the same way of saying no because what can
01:14:26.840you do without the financial backing right but uh yeah interesting to think that that that thinking
01:14:33.340was already around and would just like become even stronger in that specific year of 1792 with
01:14:39.760all these different petitions dropping up yeah pauline leon i think was also petitioning for
01:14:45.100this as well um at one point to royne summoned women to gather to do drill to i don't know just
01:14:51.840like but not very many people showed up but like you know good yeah yeah there was also it's
01:14:57.620interesting because there's a story of yeah out of like a list quite the big list actually of
01:15:02.900women who joined revolutionary armies you have the story of the fernig sisters they were aged 16 and
01:15:08.56013 uh who joined their father's regiment in disguise so again you have all these different
01:15:14.500completion of different tropes that would make them really iconic it's like always you know
01:15:18.720they're doing it for their dad they're joining in disguise without their dad knowing uh you know
01:15:23.380they're also described as soft and modest so you know they're warriors but they're not they know
01:15:27.740their place, you know, as girls. But they're actually the inspiration for, you know, a petition
01:15:33.940for a battalion called Le Corse Fernique, like the Fernique Corpse, proposing like 10,000 women
01:15:41.060and girls take part in, you know, in this effort. And I think the person behind it, the petition,
01:15:47.700Manette Dupont, had very specific criteria. Like she wanted women from 18 to 40 years old to take
01:15:54.240part so i guess 40 years old was the cutoff and she wanted them to all have short hair
01:15:59.240so you know was this kind of like almost kind of regulation of like you're going to have short hair
01:16:05.240for practicality but also if you join this army you will not have to think about your appearance
01:16:10.540you can't be vain you've got to be chased chased as hell uh so it is just really really interesting
01:16:17.920how you know how you got this kind of sudden movement uh that is obviously really really
01:16:23.940famous in nature but still kind of relying on that idea of chastity and and modesty and the
01:16:29.360kind of the image of like the you know the the virgin modest uh warrior woman and that is too0.57
01:16:35.760bad because i'm just like you know who would have been a great battalion of female soldiers is the0.96
01:16:40.360market women who marched to versailles with the pikes cut off the heads of the soldiers carried
01:16:46.520the heads back on pikes i'm like god yeah but but they were not you know chased and whatever but i'm
01:16:51.740like that was basically that like get them yeah yeah get those get those women i mean they're
01:16:57.480terrifying they will they will raise your city to the ground uh you you know that that that's who0.90
01:17:03.520you want uh but again you know it said it's like it's really feeding into all those different1.00
01:17:08.280gendered gender shenanigans uh you know in a bad way it's time of of you know we can have women1.00
01:17:17.220fighting our wars but only only so much and you know we can we can accept them if they're in0.99
01:17:23.880disguise as men within our troops to some extent up to a certain point at which they then forbid it
01:17:30.960uh but then if you're you know if if you're if you're being too rowdy and if you're assembling
01:17:36.920as a collective as a powerful well-armed collective that starts to get a bit dangerous0.79
01:17:42.560yeah exactly like we can have women soldiers but only extremely chaste only very rule following
01:17:48.180um yeah only very modest like well that's not who you have like in paris at this time that
01:17:55.380where are you going to find them yeah and also when you consider like even just like if you
01:17:59.220consider a troop like these like army troops and you assume that you're going to have women1.00
01:18:05.460disguised within them those troops also then had a large following of different women who were0.97
01:18:10.380sex workers who were mistresses of various offices uh you had the cantiniere who were you know out
01:18:16.900kind of serving food you had the laundresses you had like a whole range of different women who were
01:18:22.980actively showing participating in the war effort anyway without even fighting and were showing
01:18:28.940their skills who were involved in lots of different ways so it's uh yeah it's kind of
01:18:34.560interesting how they're like you know that but then when it comes to women actually just like
01:18:39.460coming up and saying we want this like whole regulated women's battalion it's just kind of0.97
01:18:43.580refused not like that not like that not like that you can support the war but not like that yeah0.58
01:18:48.960exactly but but to ruin is this is what she wants this is what she's advocating for like she's been
01:18:54.280in prison like she's been tortured she's been assaulted she's just like comes back and she's
01:18:59.200like even more ferocious than before um like if before she was sort of in her undergraduate period
01:19:03.900just like listening and learning now she's just like i get it i see what's happening and i have
01:19:07.640some plans. I have some proposals and I think I can, I can help. So she gave a major speech on
01:19:15.080March 25th about the Amazon project about trying to get this women's army. So she's advocating
01:19:21.000equality of the sexist, rejecting the view that women should be confined to the home, like your
01:19:26.520best friend Rousseau suggests. So here's a quote from her. Let us return to the days when the women
01:19:32.860of Gaul debated with men in the public assemblies and fought side by side with their husbands
01:19:37.220against the enemies of liberty oh yeah and she yeah and it's just really interesting her language
01:19:41.660because she's not talking about amazon she's not talking about kind of like nebulous heroic
01:19:47.300kind of figures she's really talking about these are our ancestors she's really kind of appealing
01:19:52.480to that but also the kind of working class nature of it all really is she's really saying you don't
01:19:57.660need to be a warrior queen you don't need to be like a literal legend of antiquity to take part
01:20:04.400like you know we all have it in our bloods inherently you know to take part in this and
01:20:10.340to actually just like return to our roots uh which is like kind of radical when you when you
01:20:16.040think about it uh she's like got really like strong rhetoric going for her exactly she's done
01:20:21.700the learning she knows the history yeah she's got strong arguments and yet this is where things are
01:20:27.980it's a vibe there's been a vibe shift since when she started being in the revolution she went off
01:20:35.020to jail she came back and things are just kind of like um just it's a lot more head cutting off vibe
01:20:42.720is what's happening yes it's much more just like a crowd of people who will try to murder you which
01:20:48.780is what happens to her so she was i guess giving one of her speeches on april 12th and she escaped
01:20:55.980a whipping um like just casual whipping just people in the crowd had whips not sure yeah it's
01:21:02.600the authorities um took her away under armed escort so she was being helped by the authorities
01:21:07.960so it wasn't a whipping by the authorities it's just like the crowd was mad so mad at her that
01:21:13.160they wanted to attack her yeah it's what like what i saw from so she that was when she's speaking to0.91
01:21:20.220the women of the football and so like the working class like the terrifying like the market women0.77
01:21:27.020that you want on your side and directly talking to them and yeah it's interesting so i i saw i1.00
01:21:32.840saw this excerpt from the royalist journal journal oh goodness the french is just jumping out that
01:21:37.560from the royalist newspaper in april 1792 that you know she's previously you know gone to the0.99
01:21:45.120hour to propose that the women arm themselves as pikes that the men refuse to bear there's also
01:21:50.320like a whole part of this that we should explore that is also like these women appealing to like0.66
01:21:55.400saying essentially like men have no excuse if women are going to war then like literally every
01:22:00.380single other man should go to war and kind of shaming them this newspaper says that she returned0.92
01:22:05.140to the hour with a few like a few uh sex workers i mean they say they say prostitutes and as soon0.99
01:22:10.880she's recognized only one cry was heard here she is she needs to be whipped so you're kind of like0.98
01:22:16.780on one hand like whoa but then on the other hand you do remember this is a royalist newspaper and1.00
01:22:22.140so you just kind of you you you start to think huh interesting and but then apparently she'd
01:22:30.320already talked to the same crowds of market women uh from the 11th of march and this
01:22:36.340the journal general newspaper describes a scene as what do i say they say the martial fire that
01:22:42.900the jacobins so essentially donkey very nice uh demonstrated sunday dictating uh the decisions
01:22:50.000of the women of the l was so strong that the lady's mustache came undone so they're essentially
01:22:54.400saying wow she was talking with so much fervor that you know her mustache fell off kind of
01:23:01.460essentially just mocking her openly for having more masculine clothing and completely ridiculing
01:23:08.100her for what what she was doing so yeah was she was she wasn't she like either way it's not going
01:23:14.180well for her in the press yeah it's hard to know what the reception was amongst the market women0.92
01:23:20.380but uh maybe it didn't go quite so well yeah so she's one of the reason people are mad at her0.91
01:23:26.100they're saying that she's luring women away from their domestic duties which is like this whole0.99
01:23:31.160thing about like women should be at the home they should just like this rousseau thing yeah um like0.78
01:23:35.320that's really there was a period of time where it's just kind of like yeah hell yeah women can
01:23:39.940be revolutionaries and i was kind of like no no no we can't much too much not not not like that
01:23:45.580not like that exactly and this is where i think is robespierre in charge now right yes i believe
01:23:53.100he is and she yeah and she's kind of kind of accused of uh of kind of using his name like
01:24:00.180yeah putting his his name in her mouth and i believe so it's like that french revolution
01:24:06.300it's just a little bit but yeah you like at this stage you would have the girondin kind of slightly
01:24:11.900more moderate faction of things and the jacobin which you know are starting to be a little bit
01:24:17.960more radical in a way of of seeing things and she was on the girondist side yeah and while you know0.94
01:24:26.360yeah people like Robespierre I don't remember people like Robespierre would have been on the
01:24:30.900kind of the more like jacobin like radical side you had a whole faction of the jacobin that was0.75
01:24:35.200which is like the enraged you know yeah yeah no I've got a in a few weeks I'll be talking about
01:24:41.860a woman who is part of the enraged um I love I love when a French word is so close to an English0.68
01:24:48.060word that I understand it exactly I'm like oh just the enraged just great branding uh you know0.91
01:24:55.280on that part that's yeah that's a good political party branding right there so things are we're
01:25:02.180talking about her story but like in a broader sense like the french revolution is now in this
01:25:06.380chaotic murder stage yeah basically and she's gotten more determined and more ferocious and
01:25:13.420just keeps giving her speeches um so april 23rd at the jacobin club she was mocked there for
01:25:20.680presuming as a woman to have political opinions and so she again is this what she did or is this
01:25:27.120what someone reported she did but i love it so i'll say it um she vaulted the gallery railing0.97
01:25:32.100and charged to the to the podium at the front demanding to be heard um and then the sitting
01:25:38.060was suspended because that just led to a riot but basically whatever happened like she was mocked
01:25:45.360she got mad about it and things are coming to a head really yeah it's difficult to know whether
01:25:51.340that would have been true because it does definitely fit into that kind of whole
01:25:54.540misogynist propaganda that the press is obviously doing involved she's like this angry this angry1.00
01:26:01.600woman who's trying to like corrupt you away from the home and she's just like doing all this kind1.00
01:26:06.780of stuff in public but i just think that she's been to these debates so long that she would know1.00
01:26:10.920better than to do that yeah so it's yeah comma and mental health problems like she might her
01:26:18.080judgment might be affected by that okay so then it's like what did she do what did she not do0.99
01:26:25.440she probably she was maybe helping to organize things like the demonstration of june 20th called
01:26:30.020the visit to the king which is i don't know if that's the same thing as the tuileries where the
01:26:35.680mob invaded the prison yeah so it's like where she it's like she might have been in that mob she
01:26:40.500might have not like everyone at the time was like she was in the mob you know she's riding a cannon
01:26:44.680or whatever but it's like was she there's a story that she found the man like the editor of one of
01:26:50.820the newspapers who had mocked her and she like personally lynched him but it's like did she
01:26:54.860yeah it's like everybody always wants her to be in the mob it was like oh she was at the women's
01:26:59.280march on their side she was there and she's like i don't know if that's really her style
01:27:04.540yeah yeah it's like she she's wearing outfits she's giving speeches but like is she like1.00
01:27:10.460running around in mobs murdering people she's trying to like organize a core like of women1.00
01:27:14.740to do military drills like that's what she's doing yeah yeah and even like in the symbolism1.00
01:27:20.120of what she's wearing like she's often reported to be building a saber right um and if you just
01:27:25.380think about the saber in in general like the connotations of that are very very military you
01:27:31.100know like you like it's an officer's weapon it's it's the kind of thing that you know would have0.97
01:27:36.060been regulated in that way it's just so it she's not really the type of woman who has any kind of
01:27:44.700thing attributed to her in terms of like being involved in active fighting in in any sense and
01:27:50.760it feels like it's more of a kind of like symbolic perspective of you know taking all the attributes
01:27:56.780of you know masculine attributes like the sword which you know is definitely you know it's its own
01:28:02.100this whole thing in itself and again it's like we don't know what did she do what was she only
01:28:07.520rumored to do but it does seem like her outfit like it's the sword i'm picturing it is kind of
01:28:13.360like again like a chapel rowan it's just kind of like here's my outfit and the sword is the
01:28:17.180accessory of my outfit not so much like i'm gonna go sword fighting people now it's more just like
01:28:22.100no the sword helps you see that i'm doing a military style outfit yeah exactly exactly it's
01:28:27.400always like those questions actually even go back to joan of arc and like debates around her and
01:28:32.300like to what extent would she have actively been involved in combat she definitely had a sword she
01:28:37.220definitely had armor she was probably most likely just holding being the standard bearer and being
01:28:45.460the kind of active symbol and kind of like rallying the troops uh and helping with you know
01:28:51.880like army strategies uh but was she actively involved in how to tackle that it's just kind
01:28:56.800of idea of like just the i think deal why i'm sounding like the powerful symbolism of it all
01:29:02.980as well comma and then she was in this mob um the one time the one time we know she's in a mob
01:29:10.720yeah so august 10th um this is the so the crowd outside this is where the royalist prisoners were
01:29:20.420killed um in the fuyance which is a prison fuyance yeah yeah so this is this is where it was
01:29:29.440described it's like she and again i'm gonna say like how is her mental health doing probably not
01:29:34.300great how's her physical health probably not great but she like becomes in this instance exactly what
01:29:39.420the newspapers had always claimed she was like she's wearing her blue riding habit carrying1.00
01:29:43.460pistols and a dagger um she urged on the bloodthirsty crowd to kill the royal prisoners
01:29:49.260there so royalist prison so this is we know she did do this because she was later awarded a prize
01:29:56.360for her courage on this day yeah yeah and interesting that she's kind of switched the
01:30:01.000same for the pistols and the dagger kind of a lot more kind of like just practical things you want
01:30:05.780in a full-on assault she's no longer in the kind of performance she's just kind of i've had enough
01:30:12.660like if if debating is not going to work because the theory is not going to work and the petitioning
01:30:17.560is not going to work then i'm as i may as well you know it's uh it is interesting to what extent
01:30:24.360she kind of becomes that you know everything that she's being depicted as in the press
01:30:30.240yeah she sort of leans into it um and then she's kind of like popping in and out of like recorded
01:30:36.260history which could be like her health is worse and better and she's able to do stuff and other
01:30:41.160times she's not able to do stuff yeah so she wrote she's the author of a broadsheet and i love
01:30:46.880i love people writing pamphlets i love people just like here's my manifesto everybody should
01:30:52.040read it so what she wrote about um she gave an analysis of the current political military1.00
01:30:58.040situation she called for the election of six virtuous wise women in each paris section who1.00
01:31:04.400wearing tricolor sashes because her proposal includes outfits um so these six virtuous wise1.00
01:31:11.120women would have the task of reconciling and uniting the male citizens and monitoring their
01:31:16.320behavior and they would admonish miscreants oh i i love it um i think it makes me wonder to what
01:31:25.920extent she was aware of like the kind of the worthy women trope uh which is quite an old trope
01:31:31.100of kind of like kind of late medieval like there were these like worthy men throughout history and
01:31:37.220this kind of medieval trope but then they were given these kind of women equivalents kind of
01:31:41.340like what happened was like she-ra and he-man uh and then you kind of within these kind of
01:31:46.660women worthies finds like amazon's you know amazon queens you find these women rulers so
01:31:52.800it's just kind of interesting that maybe she was trying to reference that in in some shape
01:31:57.900some shape or form with that idea of kind of uh you know six righteous wise women
01:32:04.480have Paris section it's just really fascinating it's a it's a cute idea um and I would propose
01:32:11.900it is a philosophical hypothetical idea and an actual idea because she knew what was happening
01:32:17.440in the world and this was not going to yeah it wasn't going to happen but she just wanted to
01:32:21.600make a statement yeah okay so that may 15th and this is so uh we mentioned before claire lacombe
01:32:28.960who is another prominent woman of the revolution who maybe we're going to talk about next week
01:32:33.480um she was uh she was with the jacobins to royn and what she was doing claire lacombe and her
01:32:41.780entourage they were preventing people from getting into the convention um to royn arrived as usual1.00
01:32:49.460and she was mobbed by the women who, um, attacked her. Um, they whipped her savagely to the extent1.00
01:32:56.780that she was like permanently injured. And then of all people, according to some accounts, Jean
01:33:02.840Paul Marat, like Marat from the famously later killed in his bathtub, um, arrived and spirited
01:33:10.680her away, but she was humiliated. Um, it was women who had attacked her, which maybe especially
01:33:16.080affected her and also she was like already had all these health problems and now she's dealing
01:33:20.100with these injuries yeah yeah absolutely and that kind of like the violating nature of it all as
01:33:25.760well like her skirts being being lifted like being punished in a way that's like has this these kind
01:33:32.060of like really like humiliating also kind of vaguely sexual connotation it's this is very it's
01:33:39.760all very you definitely feel as though it's definitely conflated with the way in which she
01:33:43.720dressed and presented herself as well as you know her political inclinations and this kind of1.00
01:33:50.980yeah and i just yeah the kind of internalized misogyny of other women you know doing doing1.00
01:33:58.440this to her and ironically mara would later on be assassinated by a jim hondin uh activist woman
01:34:06.880Charlotte's killed it who so it's just yeah it's interesting in section of difference yeah1.00
01:34:13.080different pathways yeah it just sort of yeah just all the different ways that women were asserting
01:34:18.800themselves in the French Revolution all kind of come to a head in this one moment and after this0.99
01:34:22.680she withdrew from public life she's just like fuck fuck this like yeah no I'm done so in the0.99
01:34:32.240And like, that's how I imagine her thinking, but also like just her health got really, really, really bad really quickly, especially her mental health.0.99
01:34:41.560She was working on writing her memoirs, which were later published, which she had written sort of those confessions slash memoirs in prison.
01:34:48.900And maybe that is what made her think like, oh, maybe I'll write more fuller memoirs.
01:34:52.340anyway um she was arrested on suspicion june 27 1794 probably for ill-considered words to
01:35:02.940neighbors so this is during the terror this is when any like people are being arrested for like
01:35:06.680thought crime yeah yeah it's it's not it's not a good time everybody's getting guillotines left
01:35:13.300and right it's uh it's uh it's definitely it's it's like the grim part of the french revolution
01:35:19.840that uh people seem to forget about sometimes it says like the the revolutionary ideal project has
01:35:27.440gone completely it's it's become a horror film yeah exactly exactly i don't know how much you've
01:35:33.900seen like on social media lately people just like advocating for a french revolution type moment
01:35:38.940people just like bring up the guilty like because people are mad at billionaires people are mad at
01:35:42.580like various fascist governments and we i talked at length in my previous episode about this but
01:35:48.320it's like the french revolution didn't actually go well like that's not that's not the model you
01:35:55.040want to like i can understand like people who are just like yeah the vibes of just kind of like
01:35:59.820poor people going after rich people but it's like yeah but then what happened then is that the
01:36:04.580infighting and then they started like people who got their heads cut off were not all aristocrats
01:36:09.880no a lot of a lot of them were not no for sure and and i think now there's a kind of i think
01:36:16.560reassessments of you know how that history has been taught and how mahatwanette and her
01:36:21.900children were treated in just absolutely horrifying ways uh and it's i definitely
01:36:27.980have lots of thoughts about the mumification of the guillotine uh definitely because i happen to
01:36:33.800have seen a real life guillotine at an exhibition um years ago called uh crime and punishment at
01:36:40.940uh and it was one of the guillotines that would have been used in capital punishments which
01:36:48.220last capital punishment was in the 1970s in france and what at that stage been you know
01:36:55.680linked to the execution of prisoners of desperate desperate people you know it just it's
01:37:03.440like when you see a real life guillotine it completely changes your perspective on how it's
01:37:09.320kind of made light of in terms of its uh its its use uh its use today um i just i did find it quite
01:37:18.420interesting you wouldn't really have memes related to would you have memes related to the electric
01:37:24.120chair in a few centuries uh but you know for me from a friendship perspective the guillotine
01:37:30.780stops you know the last use of the guillotine was in the 1970s that's not that long ago
01:37:37.080it's not it's not the 18th century uh so it's uh it's definitely quite a difference
01:37:44.060well and Tyrone's story I think really illustrates well just by looking at her specific life story
01:37:51.280like how the revolution went from kind of like this idealism this optimism and then it just kind
01:37:57.200of turned into just sort of infighting people who are mad at other people for other reasons would
01:38:01.800say oh actually they're an aristocrat and actually we should like she went into this with the best of
01:38:06.420intentions. And it's, she was just like beaten down, like literally at this point. Um, and then
01:38:11.720she was arrested, uh, her brother, remember she had two brothers, Nicholas, Nicholas Joseph or
01:38:18.180Joseph Nicholas or whichever. He appealed to have her put in his custody because he knew like they
01:38:24.520were still in touch and he knew that she just like, she needed, she needed help. She was because
01:38:29.480of all her various illnesses. The day before the fall of the committee of public safety, which is
01:38:35.040not a thing that I've gotten to yet on this podcast, but the Committee of Public Safety is
01:38:39.180the like 1984 coded like Robespierre, the people who are just arresting everybody. So they fell
01:38:45.960at some point, which we'll learn about later. Anyway, she wrote a half logical, half delusional
01:38:51.200letter to Saint-Just, a powerful member asking for his aid, but he was executed before he received
01:38:56.680it. So she's, I don't know, you know, you just think about people who, I'm just picturing people
01:39:02.260with like dementia or something where it's just like you still remember who you were and you still
01:39:05.520feel strongly about something so she's still writing letters like she's still
01:39:08.680like i think that the revolutionary stuff was still such a part of her
01:39:14.880and she but also it's just like syphilis like destroys your brain like yeah absolutely yeah
01:39:20.300absolutely it's it's just kind of terrifying how you know her her situation reflects just
01:39:27.120so so many other other women's uh situations throughout history but also like at that time of
01:39:32.880just being being sent away shut away like kept in horrible conditions and she was even used as this
01:39:39.200kind of case study um by this um professional etienne ischiemol who was you know said oh this1.00
01:39:46.940is an example of revolutionary excess in a woman you know this will lead to that kind of yeah it1.00
01:39:53.000all leaves that kind of mental mental health situation uh claire raconte actually was you0.99
01:39:58.580know also hospitalized during the future but you know much later and you just like have this kind1.00
01:40:05.620of you just have these women who you feel kind of disposed of uh they've they serve their purpose1.00
01:40:12.260uh but just as soon as you know as soon as they kind of create any kind of ways or they're just0.99
01:40:17.500like not considered well enough healthy enough palatable enough they're just kind of locked away
01:40:23.320uh you know by their peers but also just historically just like dismissed as you know
01:40:27.980oh she was uh she was a madman exactly exactly and she spent the rest of her life in various
01:40:33.860asylums like she was certified insane which was a thing that happened and she just kind of went
01:40:38.740into hospitals which again it's like the medical care i mean she all of her various things like
01:40:45.040like even just talking about the syphilis like the physical what happens to your body and then
01:40:49.880like how it affects your brain like that was untreated except for mercury but she had also
01:40:54.660these other like from the whipping she had injuries like basically they're just like here's
01:40:59.160some leeches like oh you're here well like we got let's balance your humors like nothing they
01:41:04.920were doing was helpful to her but it was just kind of like well she can't live in society anymore so
01:41:09.080let's just kind of lock her away and where it says uh she was intermittently lucid and speaking
01:41:15.260constantly about the revolution yeah um and then she died in hospital june 8th 1817 and what a life
01:41:24.980what what a life and just really kind of sad to see that you know obviously her fate was just not
01:41:32.060that much different to you know the fate of volant de gorge who was just like considered as like
01:41:39.080too like too radical by the kind of more conservative you know two conservatives uh
01:41:45.000you know all like accused of being a royalist by the jacobin ended up you know being executed but0.76
01:41:51.700also you know uh Pauline Leon who ended up being a lot you know who ended up like having a much
01:41:57.660kind of quieter end to her life you kind of secluded to the domestic sphere and kind of
01:42:02.080giving up on her revolutionary activities it's like it's not very you know it's not that that
01:42:06.320kind of heroic and and you imagine that unfortunately it's often often the case uh
01:42:12.920it's it's interesting how in many ways Stingwayne kind of almost ends up like she's she's tried to
01:42:21.660kind of go beyond drugs but in a way she's just kind of remembered for that burst of activity
01:42:28.200that literal you know taking part in that one inspection we know that she was part of that one
01:42:33.240mob we know she was part of uh and and then kind of dwindling away into into obscurity and you know
01:42:41.660and being being locked away it's uh yeah it's a lot lost these kind of women sometimes stories
01:42:48.580often end that way you're interested in the kind of glitz and glamour of them wielding the sword0.82
01:42:53.620you know being all badass but then hey what what's happening what's happening afterwards like where
01:42:57.720did they end up well and i was just looking too to double check so she was 54 when she died
01:43:03.220so she was um institutionalized probably in her 30s so like such a young person yeah like
01:43:10.200everything she did was in a short period of like the revolutionary activities that's just over a
01:43:15.460short period of time and then she's kind of just because of these illustrations it's just kind of
01:43:19.680like oh look at her she's like riding the horse or riding the cannon like with her sword like
01:43:23.820at every mob riot it's like actually no but so to wrap things up we're going to go
01:43:33.060through i sent you in advance the scale so we're going to score her in four different categories
01:43:37.420yes each one is from zero to ten so and this is interesting the french revolution period is
01:43:43.780interesting because the first category is the scandalousness which is like how scandalous was
01:43:48.380she seen by people in her time and so like on the one hand during the revolution um and then under
01:43:57.560robespierre like what was scandalous kind of changed throughout her life but i do think
01:44:01.880the first part of her life like being the i don't know actually it was i guess it wouldn't have been
01:44:07.340scandalous to be a courtesan to be sort of this to have the sugar daddy like a lot of people are0.95
01:44:12.100doing it but then she starts wearing her outfit and going to the revolution that is
01:44:15.960ever even the revolutionaries are like this is a bit much yeah yeah i think so yeah i think it's
01:44:21.800like that conflation of different different things and then when you then consider that
01:44:26.000she's part of those in those few years she's then going to be part of this whole movement where0.68
01:44:31.800suddenly there's this horror of like oh my goodness they want you know these these women1.00
01:44:37.120citizens want to claim a red bonnet they're gonna have our trousers next like this is all1.00
01:44:41.360getting a bit too work for us guys we gotta rein it in we've got to now forbid cross-dressing and1.00
01:44:47.040and also you know forbid women taking part in the army and forbid uh you know the creation of0.98
01:44:53.100women's societies and clubs like lots of lots of these some repressive measures um kind of coming1.00
01:44:59.860down in in 1793 I I don't know I was thinking about that I think I would I would rank her as
01:45:05.900an eight I like I feel as though that you know it maybe wasn't I think the step above may you know
01:45:13.460would have been kind of trying to confirm the the Jess Gal being Powell's allegations of like you
01:45:18.760know would would have been some like actual queerness going on and it's usually hard to
01:45:23.460ascertain those kind of things at all but uh i i feel like i'm i'm landing on an ache because i
01:45:29.400feel as though she's definitely being the chaperone of her time she was definitely
01:45:33.060in that kind of spirit of of performance and and being outspoken and you know being in front lines
01:45:41.460but you know but there were also other things where she was in many ways doing what other women
01:45:47.380were doing at a time that wasn't necessarily that much after normal yeah and she was she was seen1.00
01:45:52.680she was singled out i think because she um because of the way she dressed and because of the
01:46:00.100her fondness for speaking and for oratory and like she she made herself stand out even
01:46:06.700among a bunch of people who were also advocating for similar things but i agree well i'm never
01:46:12.600disagree with you. I'm very much curious to see what you think, but I think an eight is a suitable
01:46:19.160choice. The next category, and this one is interesting because it's scheminess. So this
01:46:23.700is like, how much does she come up with? And this is like, well, she wasn't a spy.
01:48:14.980She's got all this political acumen, but I just don't think she was interested in the scheming side of things.
01:48:21.320No, and the reason I have these four categories on the scale is just because people we talk about, it's very rare for somebody to score highly in everything.
01:48:29.360And I think, yeah, just thinking about it in this context, like for sure, like you're right.
01:48:32.640she didn't go in there to play the game she just came in with kind of like principles and really
01:48:39.740good like um i don't know just really thinking like this is how it should be but without the
01:48:44.880sort of like political awareness of how to actually convince people to actually agree with her yeah
01:48:49.480yeah so you know if we had a category of just like principles she'd be 10 she'd be 10 absolutely
01:48:55.840yeah she would um i'm going to go out of order just so we can finish with significance so the
01:49:01.600next one is the sexism which is like how much did being a woman get in her way now i will say a lot
01:49:08.300it did a lot comma and a lot of men also wound up getting their heads cut off for doing similar
01:49:16.660things so it's just kind of like it is true it is true um that's an interesting one i actually
01:49:22.140scored that one quite high as a nine because for me what really got me about sorry really did kind
01:49:26.280to break my heart is that she wasn't about kind of being like many of these women these uh you
01:49:31.940know women of nobility had been uh you know in previous in the 17th century of like saying oh0.56
01:49:37.120i'm going to dress as this amazon queen because i consider myself an exception to my gender you0.99
01:49:42.440know i'm i'm leading the men uh but you know i also believe that women should stay in that place
01:49:46.840she was really in that perspective of like a collective of women and kind of collective action
02:12:16.660Like where should you put your vote to make it best work?
02:12:19.300I'll put a link in the show notes, but there's a site that's called smartvoting.ca.
02:12:24.600I'll put the link there and you can look up your writing and where you are.0.90
02:12:27.280And it kind of advises you, just based on the latest polling, who looks like they're going to win in your riding so you know where to throw your support to make sure that goddamn Pierre, waste of the name Pierre, formerly a name I had fond feelings about.0.77
02:12:42.340There was a cute boy in my class in like grade two called Pierre.0.95