Vulgar History - International, part 4： Mexico's Notorious La Malinche

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00:00:30.000 I'm Brenda and Amor Tidia and together we're Monstras, a podcast dedicated to Latin American

00:00:39.040 and Latino horror, folklore, history, and all things weird. So if you want to know more about

00:00:45.020 monsters like La Llorona, La Ciguanaba, El Ovisón, El Cucuy, La Virgen de Guadalupe,

00:00:50.900 Guadalupe? What does she have to do with monsters? Well, listen to Monstras podcast and find out.

00:01:00.000 Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.

00:01:22.280 My name is Anne Foster and this is season five.

00:01:25.200 Our theme is Vulgar History Internationale, Scandaliciousness Without Borders, Tits Out, Sans Frontieres.

00:01:33.420 And this week for the first time, I'm pretty sure, running over into the Americas.

00:01:39.540 We're leaving the Eurasian continent for the first time because the plan, the thesis for the season,

00:01:49.720 is to share stories from all over the place and to help me find what stories were good and

00:01:57.160 interesting to talk about i sent out a call to the tits out brigade and polly d suggested

00:02:04.020 of several different figures from mexican history and that's what's inspired today's episode which

00:02:11.840 is about malinzine so thank you so much to polly for helping me out by suggesting this and then

00:02:17.460 also for very graciously answering lots of questions I had because this is a story

00:02:22.440 we might have had other ones that were similar levels too of cultural resonance it's kind of

00:02:29.020 kind of like with Inez de Castro where it's just like this is a person whose legacy is so major and

00:02:36.660 still so important to Mexican culture and history she's such a well-known figure not just in Mexico

00:02:45.440 but to lots of people who know about her and her impact in a way that I don't know so it's really

00:02:50.900 great Polly helped me sort of explain the cultural impact of her and she also helped me suggest

00:02:57.860 sources to help read and the main sources that I used were two excellent books first is both

00:03:04.960 they're both by Camilla Townsend so the first is a biography Madeleine's Choices and the other one

00:03:10.360 is a recent um award-winning book actually um fifth son a new history of the aztecs so both

00:03:16.720 by camilla townsend and i also listen to some several numerous podcasts i'm going to specifically

00:03:23.220 shout out the monsters podcast who really explain the cultural folklore side of things i really um

00:03:31.280 to learn more about that side rather than me trying to synopsize it badly i would just suggest

00:03:36.520 you listen to their episode about Malinzine. I also listened to the Project 1521 podcast episode

00:03:43.660 about her. And there's also a really good episode of What's Her Name podcast, where they interview

00:03:48.400 Dr. Jeffrey Ritchie. And so these all really, those podcasts really get into the cultural

00:03:52.760 side of this story. What I'm focusing on, what I always focus on in this podcast is kind of

00:03:58.440 biographical information. Who is this person as a person? Although at the end of the episode,

00:04:04.540 especially when we're talking about significance i will explain a lot of what i've learned about

00:04:09.820 about the significance of melancin to mexican culture and mythology so we are going to

00:04:20.100 the area that is now modern in mexico i'm going to probably sometimes call it mexico just so you

00:04:25.140 kind of can picture where we're looking at so we're looking at this era at the beginning of

00:04:31.300 the 16th century so like literally everywhere we've ever looked at ever it wasn't one cohesive

00:04:37.200 country or empire it was a whole bunch of little so city states and or villages and there was an

00:04:45.360 empire but which is known as the aztec empire um but that did not comprise all of everything and

00:04:52.000 then there's also the mayans were in more of the southern part of mexico so this whole story takes

00:04:59.800 place beginning of the 16th century so simultaneous to all of this Saida al-Hura for instance was

00:05:05.840 doing her thing over in Tetouan and the culture we're looking at you probably have heard of them

00:05:13.720 as the Aztecs but it turns out that's not actually the name of the group um Camilla Townsend I know

00:05:18.680 I just said her book is called fifth son a new history of the Aztecs like yes the word Aztecs

00:05:22.740 is in the title but she explains in the foreword of that book that she put that word in the title

00:05:27.660 because that's the one that people know and she only really ever uses that term in the foreword

00:05:32.700 to explain why she's not going to use that word for the rest of the book and I really appreciate

00:05:36.840 her scholarship and so I'm gonna I'll quote her here so Camille Townsend says technically speaking

00:05:42.280 there were never any Aztecs no people ever called themselves that it was a word that scholars began

00:05:47.240 to use in the 18th century to describe the people who dominated central Mexico at the time of the

00:05:52.900 Spaniard's arrival so in this podcast like in her book we're going to refer to this ethnic group

00:06:00.520 that rose to power and had an empire by using the name that this group used for themselves which was

00:06:07.280 the Mexica which is spelled m-e-x-i-c-a and that's where the word Mexico comes from so the Mexica is

00:06:14.480 the group that you probably have heard of before as the Aztecs there were other groups there too

00:06:20.380 in mexico obviously and when we get to them we will refer to them by their their uh indigenous

00:06:26.660 names as well so at the time of this story the mexica empire was led by the emperor moctezuma

00:06:33.240 who ruled from the island city of tenochtitlan and we're going to learn a lot about him and that

00:06:38.420 island city as we go through the story so those are the mexica people group empire so when we're

00:06:48.600 talking about the people spread across central mexico not like including the mexica but also

00:06:55.740 other people who shared a language and a cultural outlook we will call them by what they call

00:07:00.220 themselves the nahuats and their language is nahuatl which is a language still spoken today

00:07:07.720 in mexico and elsewhere by their descendants so it's similar to and then to the south is the mayan

00:07:14.180 culture who had various mayan languages as well so there's the nahuatl people which of which the

00:07:20.180 machica empire was part of the mayans are separate so that's the terminology we're using

00:07:28.500 and the name of the person we're talking about today so she's commonly known as la malinche

00:07:36.520 which is sort of the folkloric cultural name that she came known by and her name changes several

00:07:44.540 times changed several times during her life and will change several times in the events we talk

00:07:48.820 about here in like similar to how I'll be calling the people the Mexica people like we're going to

00:07:54.320 refer to her by the name that she was called by her fellow Nahua which is Malinzin so this is to

00:08:00.900 provide continuity so i'm not like changing her name every time her name was changed but also in

00:08:06.580 indigenous histories in her culture um when they were sharing this where storytelling was really

00:08:12.120 important a king was always referred to by his king name from the moment of his birth even though

00:08:16.560 he may not have been born with that name so and it's similar in other cultures too like when you

00:08:22.120 read a biography of like henry the eighth like when he's born and he's prince henry like people

00:08:27.100 like when henry the eighth was a boy it's like well no he wasn't henry the eighth at that point

00:08:31.200 anyway just for continuity we're calling her malinzin and this also helps separate the real

00:08:39.220 life person from the mythic cultural persona known as la malinche and again we're going to

00:08:43.760 talk about that after we go through her story the focus here is on who was this real life person

00:08:50.280 so Malinzin was born probably around the year 1500 this was eight years after 1492 when Isabella

00:09:00.780 and Ferdinand had financed Christopher Columbus's first trip to the Americas at this point Isabella

00:09:07.660 in Spain had been in power for about 30 years and at around the same time Malinzin was born

00:09:14.200 moctezuma became the leader of the machica empire so at this point the machica empire comprised up

00:09:20.960 to 500 small states and about five to six million people and moctezuma had become leader of this huge

00:09:28.340 area through conquest or commerce malinstein was born in close to the modern mexican area of vera

00:09:36.960 cruz um in a village called uluta on the so it's on the western coast of modern day mexico

00:09:42.560 her there's a lot of like we think um about her background so the sources for this are like

00:09:50.100 we don't have diaries or journals or letters or anything from her so this is all drawn from people

00:09:54.860 writing about her what they said she told them and kind of what we can infer based on what society

00:10:00.920 was like how these cultures worked and this is where I really was impressed with Camilla Townsend's

00:10:06.340 two books which prioritized the histories written by the Nahua people by people who were actually

00:10:14.580 there at the time because there's a different cultural understanding there when this is your

00:10:18.920 actual culture you're writing about for a long time the well-known records about her life were

00:10:25.480 from the Spanish people writing back about her so that's where some misconceptions and

00:10:32.460 misunderstandings might come from because the Spanish people had a lot of reasons to lie about

00:10:35.760 a lot of things so melancine's father was probably a nobleman and her mother was likely an enslaved

00:10:43.080 concubine so where she grew up like again modern new veracruz region was on the fringes of the 0.89

00:10:50.500 machica empire so in all likelihood she probably grew up hating them because they were um kept 0.66

00:10:57.280 conquesting and coming by and asking for money and payments and stuff so although culturally 0.93

00:11:03.460 these were all the Nahuatl people like they were enemies so I don't want to like belabor this point

00:11:10.940 but there was not a concept of like we are all the indigenous people of Mexico it's like this

00:11:17.840 is the known world and some people got along with some people and some people were your enemies even

00:11:23.160 though you shared a language and a cultural outlook to compare it to something else that

00:11:28.760 we've talked about on this podcast it's maybe similar well it's literally everything it's like

00:11:35.160 in the story of Fred again for instance it's like yes they were all the Frankish people but like

00:11:39.120 this kingdom was at war with this kingdom and this kingdom even though they were all Christian and

00:11:42.760 they were all speaking the same language like and they were all brothers like they didn't get along

00:11:47.660 just because they were from one culture and especially for Malentine growing up here like

00:11:53.160 nobody knew that europe existed like this was the known world and like so some people were allies

00:12:03.200 and some people were enemies and the machica were her enemies or her villages enemies at some point 0.57

00:12:09.740 in her young childhood she was taken from her family probably by the machica and was sold into

00:12:17.160 slavery so i mean we do not know why this happened some options include that maybe her father who is

00:12:25.360 a nobleman negotiated with a machica to avoid an attack by giving them an offering including his

00:12:31.420 daughter or maybe they had lost a battle and were forced to hand over a gift and she was part of

00:12:36.840 that gift um she's between eight to ten years of years old at this point so very young girl

00:12:43.780 and if she was chosen as an offering in either of those two scenarios then that would mean that her

00:12:50.160 community was complicit in her being sold into slavery like they would have chosen her and given

00:12:54.920 her away another option is she may have been kidnapped um someone later wrote that Malin

00:13:03.360 had told that person that she'd been stolen away by merchants and it's possible like anything is

00:13:08.540 possible in this situation but also would she have necessarily even known the circumstances

00:13:12.440 like as far as she knew she was just grabbed and taken and sold into slavery but if she had been

00:13:18.820 kidnapped that would also mean that someone in her village or her family was maybe complicit in her

00:13:23.780 being taken because given her noble father like she wouldn't have just been like wandering around

00:13:28.120 by herself probably and girls being sold into slavery was not uncommon in this region and era 0.50

00:13:35.660 it was a culture with very stratified classes of like aristocrats and then kind of like working 0.86

00:13:41.220 people and then enslaved people like these groups were there they existed girls were often taken to

00:13:48.360 be traded further east and they were traded for usually cacao beans or cotton and given to people

00:13:54.460 who needed them for the time-consuming aspects of domestic cotton production so in other slavery

00:14:00.600 situations like slavery of african people in america it was often strong men were taken because 1.00

00:14:07.520 there was you know the back-breaking agricultural work to do picking cotton and stuff but girls were 1.00

00:14:12.920 chosen because they needed them to do cotton production based things like not like pulling 1.00

00:14:17.280 the cotton from the fields but more like weaving and embroidery and that sort of stuff and they

00:14:23.920 needed a lot of people to do that because this was the main thing that people that was being traded

00:14:28.360 this was um cotton production was a very valuable resource and they needed more and more people to

00:14:33.460 keep up with the demand so she was sold to the chantal maya so the mayan people so she was

00:14:41.080 brought to like a slave trading area where she was bought by the chantal maya and then she was 0.90

00:14:48.140 brought to a third place so put on chan on the yucatan peninsula where she was worked she was

00:14:55.780 enslaved for around 10 years and while she was there she picked up the chantal maya language

00:15:00.600 as well as the substantially different language of Yucatec Maya so the first 10 years of her life

00:15:07.200 were with her family and her village the second 10 years of her life were enslaved to the Mayan

00:15:13.660 I also just want to mention that in this story more so than I think any other I've done

00:15:19.280 there's a lot of misconceptions about what her narrative was and so I had never

00:15:26.260 encountered this story before so it's like reading people debunking theories that I had not

00:15:33.900 encountered before as a theory so I'm not going to bring up like some people think this but this

00:15:38.180 is wrong I'm just going to bring up like the narrative I'm sharing is truly based on Camilla

00:15:43.700 Townsend's work and it's based on what seems to have happened I'm not gonna debunk stuff but I

00:15:51.160 I'll just mention that one of the sort of apocryphal stories about her is that her mother

00:15:57.380 um like her father died and then her mother remarried and then sold her into slavery because

00:16:03.600 of something with the um the estate and who was going to inherit but that is not that doesn't

00:16:12.080 follow culturally with how anything would have worked so it's probably not true so there's a

00:16:15.300 lot of stories like that where it's just like I'm not going to go through and explain a thing

00:16:19.160 just to debunk it i'm just going to go through and sort of like moving forward through what seems

00:16:23.880 like what actually happened so um along with helping with the work in cotton production

00:16:29.720 balance scene was also like it was definitely used sexually at this time because that was a

00:16:36.440 thing that happened to girls and women who were enslaved she did not have a child um at this time 0.92

00:16:45.580 so it could be because she hadn't started menstruating until later it could be because

00:16:50.420 she like malnutrition the heavy workload she was dealing with made her um either not fertile or 0.98

00:16:59.260 whatever or and or she would have had access and she would have for sure had access to um 1.00

00:17:04.640 abortion inducing herbs and the reason that we know for sure she didn't have a child in this era

00:17:09.880 is because enslaved women in this culture were not separated from their children 0.62

00:17:14.160 and when a group of women were needed as an offering melancine was one of 20 women and

00:17:19.920 girls who was selected and the men they were being given to was the spanish so this was in 1519 so

00:17:26.780 melancine was probably 19 20 years old had been enslaved for about 10 years so the leader of the

00:17:32.940 spanish ships was a chaotic dirtbag named hernan cortez who has so much chaos in his story that i'll 0.98

00:17:42.080 be talking about him in an entirely separate episode in an episode of so this asshole on my 0.51

00:17:48.380 patreon because initially I had a bunch of Hernan Cortez facts in my notes for this episode and it

00:17:54.460 made it all way too long but just know that he was the human equivalent of the fire festival and

00:18:00.600 just a truly awful person on the twists and turns each one worse than the next and he was just

00:18:05.920 chaos incarnate and he was the captain of the ship that she was sold to so Hernan Cortez 0.55

00:18:11.380 was spanish he spoke spanish he didn't speak nahua or any of the mayan languages so he was

00:18:18.300 helped out by a translator named geronimo de aguilar who spoke yucatec maya and geronimo

00:18:25.720 learned that language because he had come over from spain as a missionary a bit before this and

00:18:31.120 then he was taken prisoner and he learned yucatec maya from the people who captured him

00:18:36.300 malinzine and 19 other enslaved women and girls were brought to the spanish ship as like a peace

00:18:42.580 offering they were immediately baptized christian by the spanish and given new spanish names

00:18:48.960 malinzine we don't know what her name was before this but she her baptismal name was marina so she

00:18:55.360 is also known by that name in some sources so the girls were then divided among cortez's leading

00:19:04.660 men to be their sex slaves basically and malinzine was selected to be paired up with the most 0.99

00:19:11.020 important man on the ship alonso hernandez de puerto carrero why was she chosen later people 0.97

00:19:17.760 would write about her great beauty so it might have been she was like the most physically attractive 0.95

00:19:22.060 of all the girls there maybe being raised by a nobleman gave her a different stature 0.68

00:19:26.140 different affect from the others maybe they could tell that they're just somehow she seemed to them

00:19:32.780 the best one and so she was given to the most important man and while she may have been chosen

00:19:38.480 because of her good looks she what they didn't know at this point was she had an extraordinary

00:19:44.020 mind she was paying attention to everything and working to figure out what these men were about

00:19:48.880 and what this meant for her like what was the situation and because she could speak yucatech 0.98

00:19:54.040 maya she's able to speak with her on about aguilar and learn from him about what the fuck was going on 0.64

00:19:59.360 who are these people what is happening so he would have taught her about the existence of 0.86

00:20:03.640 the european continent um that the many of the people there worshipped a powerful god

00:20:08.480 and called themselves christians she would have learned that the spanish conquistadors had learned

00:20:14.380 that there was a rich nation somewhere to the west of mexico and they wanted to find it

00:20:19.780 to get basically take it over and to steal all the gold because by this point there was around

00:20:24.700 5 000 spanish people living in the caribbean and there was not enough wealth for all of them so

00:20:28.840 They needed gold.

00:20:30.100 And this place to the west of Mexico with lots of money.

00:20:34.480 This is Tenochtitlan, where the emperor Moctezuma lived. 0.92

00:20:38.380 And she probably would have appreciated that Cortez and all the Spanish would be very disappointed 0.90

00:20:44.740 and therefore very dangerous and angry if they did not find what they were looking for. 0.97

00:20:49.480 So then, a few days into their voyage, the ship was greeted by two canoes piloted by

00:20:54.560 Machica emissaries sent by Moctezuma to reach out to the Spanish.

00:20:58.840 jironimo attempted to translate but he spoke yucatec maya and the emissaries were speaking

00:21:04.520 nahuatl and so he couldn't understand what they were saying cortez was like what's the point of

00:21:09.020 even having you here if you don't speak the language and then malinzine changed everything

00:21:13.400 by being like oh actually i understand this language and this is like of course she spoke up

00:21:21.040 if we look at what her other options were like what else would she have done like

00:21:25.040 had she not spoken up and this communication didn't happen she would have remained probably 0.68

00:21:31.820 concubline to puerto carrero who would then control every aspect of her life who could 0.92

00:21:37.260 discard her if he got bored which could have meant killing her which could have meant making

00:21:42.360 her a common property of the other men on the ship whereas if she helped cortez she could earn 0.92

00:21:48.220 the respect and gratitude of the men and maybe get to stop being a sex slave and also these guys were 0.61

00:21:54.560 from the machica representing moctezuma and she hated the machica who were the enemies of her

00:22:01.380 family from the village she grew up with potentially the people who sold her into slavery

00:22:04.440 and she knew that cortez wanted to go and attack them so she was just figured out like why don't

00:22:10.980 i just help out this guy so in this era and time no one would have assumed she owed any loyalty to

00:22:18.380 moctezuma or to his people because again to quote camilla townsend while she lived and for many

00:22:24.560 years afterwards no one expressed surprise at the course she chose only modern people who lacked

00:22:29.060 knowledge of her situation would later say she was some sort of traitor and this is if you don't know

00:22:35.660 this story and you don't know the context um maline scene is still and has been considered a

00:22:41.760 traitor to many people seeing like her siding with the spanish rather than the indigenous people

00:22:48.740 but like to her in this era and time like the indigenous people of mexico was not a cohesive

00:22:55.340 group or classification like she grew up in a place where yeah there was a shared cultural

00:23:00.040 outlook there's a shared language but it was just various groups who all attacked each other

00:23:04.040 and were variously in alliances like she wouldn't have seen them all as one group versus the spanish

00:23:10.860 like even in the language in the Nahuatl language there's not a word meaning

00:23:14.900 all Nahuatl people like the closest is just the word humans like there's not there wasn't a concept

00:23:22.320 of indigenous people as all one big group so she wouldn't have seen herself as belonging to the 0.78

00:23:28.260 Machika civilization led by Moctezuma therefore had no loyalty to him and in fact would have hated 0.77

00:23:34.040 him so like of course she stepped up to help Cortez and so when she volunteered herself this 0.81

00:23:40.680 started off a sort of four-person translation chain so the emissaries would speak to her and

00:23:45.520 now what and then she'd translate to yucatec maya to geronimo who would then translate into spanish

00:23:51.000 for cortez they took like an hour to have a conversation like back and forth but cortez

00:23:55.760 immediately saw her value according to his writings his writings he took her side after

00:24:01.080 this and promised her more than her liberty if she would help him find and speak to moctezuma

00:24:05.280 which meant like he would make her rich which was what he promised everyone and he didn't ever

00:24:10.480 really mean it and he was a dirtbag and i'll talk about that on a whole other podcast but anyway

00:24:15.080 she was when she stepped up like this changed everything for her like literally overnight she

00:24:21.520 was accorded a whole new level of respect the men referred to her now as donia marina 0.62

00:24:26.120 a title reserved for highborn ladies in europe um one assumes at this point she's probably also 1.00

00:24:32.320 removed as the concubine to puerto corero because she suddenly became this important translator 1.00

00:24:37.980 person and the thing is she had this amazing instinctive like natural ability to just be an

00:24:45.920 amazing translator because it's not just translating this word means this and this word means this and

00:24:50.840 especially with two languages that are so different like there's may not be a one-to-one

00:24:54.480 word ratio but also just the cultural nuances and also finding ways to to be persuasive when

00:25:02.940 translating so for instance when the ship so they're headed toward Tenochtitlan like they're

00:25:08.260 headed from one coast to the other to try and find Moctezuma to steal all his gold basically

00:25:15.040 which meant they were sailing sometimes and sometimes they made camp so at one point when

00:25:19.200 they made camp a group approached who spoke a language that she didn't know but she was able

00:25:23.740 to converse with them enough to learn that they had Nahuatl translators living with them so she's

00:25:28.400 able to talk with their translators from the translators she was able to learn more details

00:25:33.020 about the other tribes who hated moctezuma so yeah so the thing is moctezuma was the emperor

00:25:40.100 of the machica empire aka the aztec empire which he had put together forcibly like everyone who

00:25:48.500 wasn't part of that empire hated him so like all these other groups hated him so she figured or she

00:25:54.660 deduced that if Cortez could team up with the tribes who hated Moctezuma then they could maybe

00:26:00.700 work together to force their way for an in-person meeting with Moctezuma and then presumably take

00:26:04.900 all of his gold so she her cultural understanding of the Nahua situation would have helped her

00:26:14.780 explain to Cortez like these are the this is not one joint group of people who are all going to

00:26:21.520 team up against you, like so many people hate Moctezuma, you can probably find some good allies

00:26:25.280 here from various groups. She was also a capable diplomat. She had the skill to understand the

00:26:30.240 complex subtleties of situations and explain them in persuasive and convincing ways. So as they made

00:26:36.200 their way towards Tenochtitlan, they interacted with various different groups and she would help

00:26:40.660 with trading, she would help with getting information. And with all these groups that

00:26:45.840 they interacted with, Melanzine came across as the most important member of the group, like not

00:26:49.740 Cortez, not Geronimo, her.

00:26:52.500 So this is where the name Malinche and also Malinzin comes from.

00:26:57.180 And this is because in Nahuatl, the language, there isn't an R sound.

00:27:01.820 So remember, she'd been renamed Marina, but they would hear or repeat this as Malina.

00:27:07.100 And as she became more respected, they added the honorific suffolk Tzin to Malina, which

00:27:12.780 becomes Malinzin.

00:27:14.420 And then the Spanish kind of misheard Malinzin as Malinche.

00:27:18.560 and that's where that name comes from so then when the nahuas spoke to cortez or when they

00:27:26.320 like referred to cortez they referred to him as malinci as well as though her name must be his

00:27:32.060 as well like she was the most important and like he was her helper so she was the reference point

00:27:37.300 others in her party took on meaning in relation to her and the thing was she was truly the most

00:27:43.060 important person in the entourage she was the speaker and culturally that was a really important

00:27:51.320 leadership role she made statements on behalf of the entire world or the entire group so the

00:27:56.640 nahuatl word for leader is tlatoani which means he who speaks like the word leader is intrinsically

00:28:03.400 linked with who is the speaker for the group so she would clearly be seen as someone with the

00:28:07.780 power of a leader it was unusual for a woman to be a leader but not unheard of for a woman or a

00:28:15.300 girl to perform publicly like there were women who would were storytellers entertainers things like

00:28:21.140 that so it's not it was unusual but it wasn't unheard of Cortez knew he was dependent on her

00:28:28.200 and he did not like that when he wrote letters back to Spain he downplayed her assistance

00:28:32.940 sometimes didn't mention her at all because he knew how lucky he was to have found her like a

00:28:38.960 person who not only spoke both nahuatl and yucatec mayan but she also hated the machica had a really

00:28:44.720 good mind for like coming up with plans and strategies and then also because of how she was

00:28:50.040 a daughter of a nobleman she spoke with confidently with finesse and did the ability to understand

00:28:56.700 there was a whole sort of different register or dialect in nahuatl for uh the nobility which had

00:29:03.320 a different sort of um it was just different speaking and she knew that so she was able to

00:29:09.700 talk to like the common people but also she could talk to like really important emissaries and things

00:29:14.700 because she had that knowledge um that grammar she also had this innate psychological ability

00:29:21.540 to figure out what was going on and how to persuade other people to do what she thought

00:29:26.200 they should and this is potentially partially like she just had a lot of inherent skills

00:29:31.740 but also she knew her survival was dependent on the Spanish surviving so she was extra motivated

00:29:37.500 to observe them carefully and understand their culture so she could interpret and explain it

00:29:41.600 to others. Unsurprisingly given what we already know about her facility with languages with the

00:29:48.460 help of Geronimo she quickly learned the Spanish language as well and she also came to understand

00:29:53.980 spanish culture this made geronimo less important to the mission like it didn't have to be a four

00:29:59.220 person translation chain like he could be eliminated entirely this bothered him um

00:30:05.260 like of the spanish conquistadors who later wrote about maline scene every single person

00:30:11.900 only says glowing wonderful things about her except for geronimo who which seems like he was

00:30:16.900 jealous of her success also allegedly he might have had romantic feelings for her which she did

00:30:22.560 not reciprocate like he literally died angry decades later slandering her name because she

00:30:28.060 didn't like how he didn't like how she kind of took over his job so Malinstein's ability like

00:30:34.700 again it's not just being like a human google translate like she could code switch like she 0.99

00:30:39.520 could talk and change her manners in different ways depending on who she's talking to and

00:30:44.480 considering she had like just met the Spanish she figured them out really quickly

00:30:47.540 so spanish men who had encountered her like again when they were writing later about her

00:30:54.340 they described her as good humored and courageous uh depending on who she's talking to like around 0.51

00:31:00.300 the spanish men she would maybe speak more like coquettishly sort of like flirtingly because she 0.99

00:31:06.280 knew that that's what would appeal to them but then when she's speaking to the nawa she knew 0.97

00:31:11.840 that they respected a more formal approach and they would only listen to a nobleman speaking if 0.93

00:31:15.920 She spoke with authority, so she's able to, like, code switch based on who her audience was to be as persuasive as possible.

00:31:22.880 But she wasn't just helpful at, you know, conversations. 0.91

00:31:28.160 She was part of a group intent on reaching Tenochtitlan and defeating Makhtizuma.

00:31:35.040 So she was also needed to help explain things to the people that they encountered along the way to get them to join their group.

00:31:42.120 so she had to be also know what would make these groups one aside with cortez and with her so

00:31:49.140 there's a group called the tlaxcala who were a free state who weren't loyal to moctezuma but

00:31:55.400 also weren't keen to team up with the spanish so the whole group wound up battling against them

00:32:00.380 and the tlaxcolans were like really famous and still are well-known renowned for being excellent

00:32:05.360 warriors there were a series of ferocious battles and at one point cortez went out on horseback

00:32:11.260 with malinzine on the same horse with him and she was shouting out loud that the spanish offered

00:32:16.240 peace and friendship if the tlex collins would accept it somehow this and i guess other things

00:32:23.200 led the fight to stop um this was maybe because the tlex collins had been trade partners with

00:32:31.480 her like people from her village like they knew where she was from and they kind of respected her

00:32:37.500 where she was from like near vera cruz so her vibe of being a gracious and authoritative noble

00:32:42.860 woman was inherently trustworthy to them like they kind of knew what she was about

00:32:46.200 so peace talks began malinzine helped cortez and the spanish negotiate an alliance with the

00:32:52.960 tlax collins and the tlax collins um kept records of this this is where we get some really memorable

00:33:00.160 visual records of this meeting which feature it's like drawings of people and some words on it too

00:33:06.000 but it kind of shows Malintzina is drawn prominently like physically larger and taller

00:33:11.100 than the men just to kind of show this is how important she was to this situation like basically

00:33:17.780 in all drawings from indigenous people from her time as a diplomat like other groups like she was

00:33:24.900 always drawn as like huge like just to show like she is so important to this situation um she's

00:33:30.720 also always illustrated from like document to document she's always dressed beautifully in a

00:33:37.220 different outfit in each image um which suggests that as they conquered or allied with different

00:33:41.940 groups she was given gifts of new outfits she always dressed um in an indigenous style so

00:33:48.980 wearing a sort of blouse top that's called a huipili huipili um which is like these beautifully

00:33:56.080 embroidered cotton sort of um square neck square sleeve sort of tops with a skirt although she did

00:34:04.300 also according to these images start wearing european footwear rather than the barefoot style

00:34:09.480 of her people um considering how much walking she was doing i think that makes sense so

00:34:16.520 they allied with the tlax collins which was major because they were there's a lot of them and they

00:34:23.160 were really good at fighting so the ever larger group of allies kept continuing on so this is

00:34:27.560 giving me a bit of um remember in bodica where she was marching on to like burn down rome and

00:34:34.020 just like she would get more people and then her just like group got bigger and bigger the closer 0.86

00:34:37.700 she got so with melancia's help this group just kept growing growing the next big city like they

00:34:44.820 passed by small villages and stuff but the next like major area was cholula which is a town that

00:34:51.520 was part of the machica empire it's under moctezuma's control and so they had been instructed

00:34:57.760 by moctezuma not to feed the spanish very well and to not be welcoming and to attack the spanish

00:35:03.480 as they left the city maybe so asterix this is a very famous battle and what happened is like

00:35:12.280 maybe it was this or maybe it was this this is just like a clue the movie moment so cortez

00:35:19.220 wrote a letter back to Spain, which, do we trust him? No, we do not. He claimed that Malincene had

00:35:24.880 some super secret spy skills, and she claimed to have befriended an old noblewoman who lived in

00:35:30.280 Cholula, and gained her trust to the point that the woman secretly told Malincene about the ambush

00:35:35.060 plan, because she thought Malincene wanted to escape Cortez. And it's possible that this is

00:35:40.820 true. It's also possible that the Tlax Collins planted the idea of the attack, like they pretended

00:35:47.280 that the Cholulans were going to attack

00:35:48.680 because the Tlex Collins and the Cholula were enemies

00:35:52.660 and Tlex Collins wanted an excuse to attack them.

00:35:55.680 Or Cortez might have claimed to have heard about the ambush

00:35:58.780 to excuse his own actions after the fact,

00:36:01.560 so it doesn't look like he's the aggressor.

00:36:03.580 Or maybe Malinzine did tell him this, but she made it all up.

00:36:07.440 Like, we do not know.

00:36:08.660 What we do know is that Cortez's men,

00:36:11.500 including their allies, the Tlex Collins,

00:36:14.700 led a massacre against the people of Cholula. 0.91

00:36:17.280 after this happened malinche again used her linguistic and mediator slash diplomat skills

00:36:24.500 to broker peace between the cholulans and the tlax collins and the spanish so given how

00:36:31.220 horrifically the spanish had destroyed cholula like they destroyed they killed so many people 0.55

00:36:36.160 they like destroyed the temples they destroyed the city like it was a horrible massacre the 0.99

00:36:42.220 cholulans left alive might have felt like they had no other option other than to team up with 0.97

00:36:46.880 to Alex Collins to please Cortez so now that's part of the squad so onward they go and so the

00:36:54.520 morning of November 8th 1519 this ever large group of allies reached the shores of Tenochtitlan

00:37:02.300 which was a city on an island in the middle of a big lake and so it's the site of modern-day

00:37:09.340 Mexico City which is not on a big lake but that's because the lake was later drained but that's

00:37:14.860 where it was cortez rode on horseback towards the front of the group with malintzine walking at his

00:37:19.680 side as they approached the causeway leading to the island city so these causeways were it's a

00:37:27.640 city on an island so like it needs to be connected to the mainland somehow so these were kind of like

00:37:31.380 roads built up out of the water so like high dirt roads connecting the island to the mainland

00:37:40.560 but there were gaps throughout the causeways where there were drawbridges were put so that

00:37:48.420 so the drawbridges could go up so the tall ships could pass and then they go back down again so

00:37:52.880 people could use the causeways so it wasn't like just fully a bridge from one side to the other

00:37:57.000 it was kind of like pieces like these dirt roads connected with these little drawbridges

00:38:04.280 at the edge of the island hundreds of machica dignitaries had gathered they were all wearing

00:38:10.160 bejeweled cloaks moctezuma was at the center his servants were holding a giant gold jewel encrusted

00:38:15.860 canopy over his head malintzin and cortez and maybe just them probably other people were led

00:38:23.700 over across the causeway to meet moctezuma so the thing is moctezuma was so important and powerful

00:38:32.980 he was also had the luxury of being very isolated like not just anyone could talk to him let alone 0.87

00:38:39.380 a woman let alone an enslaved woman so malintzine would never even though this was like the emperor

00:38:46.160 of her like this empire who were her enemies she never would have thought like one day i'll talk 0.79

00:38:51.280 to him because it's just he was like unreachable but she kept her cool um she's up to the task and

00:38:57.360 largely because of her the meeting seemed to go as smoothly as possible

00:39:01.140 so apparently moctezuma and his men were impressed with malintzine's ability to speak

00:39:06.600 both spanish and nahuatl as well as to speak in the like official way you talk to the emperor

00:39:12.560 according to later records of people who were there for this meeting moctezuma spoke in the

00:39:16.860 elaborate courtly speech that was always used with ambassadors and this is the thing with its own

00:39:20.880 grammar that melintzin knew how to speak and so part of this is very it's like over polite um

00:39:28.820 so there's a code of polite inversion so lots of stuff where it's like almost like it seems

00:39:35.480 like excessive politeness you know a prince might say oh I'm unworthy to receive you I'm just your

00:39:41.520 humble servant when he's actually a prince so it's like really flattering the person who you're

00:39:47.780 talking to and kind of like denigrating yourself and this led to some again

00:39:55.100 misunderstandings miscommunication about what was this meeting like because it's like

00:40:01.320 wow moctezuma was just like oh my god you're so wonderful like i don't deserve you why are you

00:40:06.780 here and people like wow moctezuma just like surrendered to them right away it's like no

00:40:10.360 that's just how he that was just how language conventions um anyway so malinzine apparently

00:40:18.560 responded with uh direct speech so devoid of polite honorifics or polite reversals 0.99

00:40:24.240 um i guess maybe this was her thing about like being straightforward and not cute or coquettish

00:40:29.960 etc these are the records of people who saw this meeting happen but like only moctezuma and manzine

00:40:36.840 spoke nawa so no one else really knows what either of them said really anyway the conversation went

00:40:42.880 okay and it ended nobody was murdered and moctezuma welcomed the entire entourage to tenochtitlan

00:40:48.420 as honored guests so just like side note about tenochtitlan island city in the middle of a lake

00:40:55.320 it was an urban city in the middle of a mostly agricultural world people who saw the city always

00:41:03.380 remembered first its beauty largely because of the gardens so overflowing from ordinary people's

00:41:08.660 flat rooftops as well as the gardens of the palaces just like beautiful flowers and plants

00:41:12.820 birds like colorful birds and because the city had been planned and was built all at once unlike

00:41:20.540 cities in europe so like barcelona or wherever the spanish were from like paris or london like

00:41:27.120 it wasn't just like it was you know a city that slowly expanded in size over time tenorchitlan

00:41:32.660 had been planned and organized so the buildings were along orderly straight streets like a nice

00:41:38.020 grid pattern the palace received fresh running water a supply was fed by a clay aqueduct part

00:41:44.760 of a extraordinary waterworks system um the emperor like it was just every detail is so

00:41:51.100 interesting so there was a zoo there filled with animals brought as tribute from subject states

00:41:55.300 including reptiles jaguars wolves and mountain lions moctezuma also maintained a library with

00:42:01.260 hundreds of books population and size wise tanosh titlan at its height had more than 140 000 people

00:42:07.160 living there was the most densely populated city ever to exist in mesoamerica by contrast at this

00:42:13.860 time for instance so again 140 000 people in tenochtitlan london england had around 50 000

00:42:19.560 people lisbon portugal had around 100 000 people so this is a real urban center so they're there

00:42:27.480 they're welcome and malinzin was set up in luxurious quarters in the palace the brightly

00:42:33.060 painted walls and sterols were alive with carved animals and the images of gods the floors and beds

00:42:37.540 lined with the softest mats and again this is like the city like the palace of the city of her

00:42:42.960 enemies like these people who she had grown up hating a city that lived and thrived by making

00:42:48.380 war with little villages like the one that she was taken from and she had been enslaved for 10

00:42:53.880 years but now she was the honored guest so servants now brought food to her and she was again called

00:43:00.280 upon a lot to figure out living arrangements because she was the only one who could translate

00:43:04.860 for anybody and so three months go by the events of these three months are subject to debate we

00:43:11.740 know the spanish were toured around the city and they were awful um they would rudely demand gifts 0.77

00:43:17.580 wherever they went they would loot gold jewelry from moctezuma's personal storehouse to melt it 0.78

00:43:22.960 down to make into bricks and moctezuma kept asking melanzin like how much like gold and tribute to

00:43:29.920 the spanish want before they'll leave like when are they gonna leave but they did not leave although

00:43:34.760 cortez did briefly leave so on a little business trip so for various reasons based on him being 0.60

00:43:41.060 a dirtbag who basically didn't have permission to have done anything he'd been doing and got in

00:43:47.380 trouble with the spanish he had to go he had to leave tenochtitlan to meet up with some spanish 0.81

00:43:51.840 people to sort of explain like don't worry about it like i know i was only supposed to do like

00:43:56.040 exploratory trips and i've been actually conquering everything but it's fine because everyone does

00:44:00.720 surrender to me so i'm not actually conquering don't worry about it he's the worst and again 0.77

00:44:04.480 i will explain that all on so this asshole over on patreon anyway my lean scene accompanied him 0.91

00:44:10.740 on this business trip because even though he's a Spanish person you're gonna go speak Spanish to 0.95

00:44:14.800 Spanish people like they're gonna probably need to trade and stuff along the way so they left

00:44:20.880 um 12 days into this business trip a messenger arrived to reveal that the people of Tenochtitlan

00:44:27.120 were actually rebelling against the Spanish and everything was kind of chaos so they all headed

00:44:32.940 back there was a huge multi-day battle in the middle of which Moctezuma was killed

00:44:37.800 um and it was just like awful you know temples being smashed etc 0.78

00:44:45.000 Malintzine encouraged the Machica to make peace and to save their own lives but they refused to

00:44:50.800 stand down and so the thing is Malintzine had seen the Spanish fight so many other groups and 0.90

00:44:57.920 like just decimate them because they had you know cannons and horses and ships and she knew that

00:45:04.380 they had like they had superior technology there was more where they came from like more spanish 1.00

00:45:08.680 people would arrive anytime like she knew that it was inevitable that the spanish were going to win

00:45:13.540 so she just tried to convince the machica to just like surrender um years later again the spanish

00:45:22.660 conquistadors who saw her in action agreed one of her greatest skills was the ability to convince

00:45:28.100 other indigenous people of what she could see clearly that it was useless in the long run to

00:45:33.080 stand against the spanish one of these conquistadors wrote that melancin used to talk to

00:45:38.160 the indians without cortez being present and then would make them come in peace so like she knew how

00:45:43.080 to get through to them usually but at this point even her skills failed because emotions were just

00:45:47.460 running so high to the point that the only possibility for the spanish was to escape like

00:45:51.780 they were trapped on this island being hunted down by people who hated them so but remember

00:45:57.080 the causeways they had all been ruined um except for one but the bridges connecting the pieces of

00:46:05.180 causeway had been destroyed so the spanish had to make a portable bridge so they spent all night

00:46:10.780 making a little portable bridge and then before midnight they headed out to try and escape to the

00:46:15.040 mainland maline seen almost definitely would have been wearing a breastplate and helmet

00:46:19.140 because she wore those in other battles and this was like a pretty important situation

00:46:23.060 and she was a valuable member of the group like she if she died what were they going to do so

00:46:29.400 turns out their portable bridge did not work so they had to they just used like wooden beams

00:46:34.940 to go from causeway to causeway and then so the causeways were like i don't know how high

00:46:40.780 but like well above the water level so machica warriors and canoes began attacking them from

00:46:47.520 every direction like including below and lots and lots of spanish people died all the gold they're

00:46:52.480 trying to take fell into the lake um but madeline zine and cortez both survived this whole event

00:46:58.500 became known to the spanish survivors as noche triste or the night of sorrows so madeline zine

00:47:07.480 and the others retreated back to tlaxcala where so they'd been in tana chitlan for what like three

00:47:13.840 months or something three four months but when they got back to tlaxcala uh it had been affected

00:47:20.920 by smallpox. So the king and thousands of people had all died of smallpox. So I did that mini

00:47:27.160 episode early in pandemic days about the history of smallpox vaccination. And I think I mentioned

00:47:32.860 in that people in Mesoamerica didn't, they were not immune to smallpox because in large part,

00:47:40.920 just the way that they're, they lived, they didn't live with their livestock like people in Europe

00:47:46.600 did or it had been doing for a long time so people in europe had developed some people in europe had

00:47:52.700 developed some immunity to cowpox which is related to smallpox so they had or they had largely like

00:47:59.260 run into it in their lives but the disease had never been in mesoamerica before so with no

00:48:04.840 immunity smallpox sort of decimating the indigenous population of mesoamerica within a hundred years

00:48:10.280 between the conquests and smallpox, something like 90%, like 9-0% of the indigenous population

00:48:17.320 would die. So note that this year, 1520, was noted in Texcolon history, not as the year the

00:48:25.740 Spanish came, but as the year the smallpox came, because that was so much more affecting to their

00:48:32.200 situation. Smallpox, horrible disease. It's a slow, painful, awful death. So in addition to

00:48:37.860 smallpox affecting everybody the spanish survivors who had survived the noche triste all had lots of

00:48:42.520 injuries they were getting gangrene and things for instance cortez had to have two fingers from his

00:48:47.540 left hand amputated i guess because of gangrene so they were literally just nursing their wounds

00:48:52.780 as were the people in tenochtitlan i think but while this happened and this kind of like

00:48:57.880 pause between battles malinzine who seems to have been uninjured as far as i know

00:49:04.160 was kept busy mediating between both sides about what to do next. 0.95

00:49:09.380 Most of the Tlaxcolan leaders just wanted to kill the Spanish and get rid of them. 0.99

00:49:13.140 But Malinzine kept explaining, like, if you kill these guys, 0.99

00:49:16.240 like, there's lots more where they came from. 0.97

00:49:18.120 There's, like, the continent of Europe.

00:49:20.180 Like, the best course for Tlaxcolans would be to cement an alliance with the Spanish, 1.00

00:49:23.860 use the victory that they would ultimately attain to gain the upper hand over Tenochtitlan. 0.99

00:49:28.200 If the Tlaxcolans could hold fast in their alliance with the Spanish, 0.97

00:49:31.100 the machica could be destroyed and the endless wars between city-states would cease forever 0.89

00:49:35.200 so remember again like the spanish came into a situation where there were these endless wars like

00:49:40.440 the city-states like all these different groups were always fighting each other and had been for

00:49:46.140 such a long time and it was just a constant state of war so it's not like the spanish came and

00:49:50.260 brought war with them it's just like one more group who's also battling so if one group could

00:49:56.760 take control then maybe the battling would stop and eventually the tax cons agreed with her and

00:50:03.980 continued to ally with the spanish this all went on for like the sort of like nursing their wounds

00:50:09.280 slash malinzine trying to convince people of stuff for about 20 days after which spanish and their

00:50:15.080 allies headed back to chanjilan to take the city for real so then three months of war of just

00:50:22.560 battling, battling. Madeleine Sine was called upon regularly to accompany Cortez on talks,

00:50:26.980 to parlay with the enemies, to try and figure out some terms, to work together again. At one point,

00:50:34.780 like mid-battle, I guess, warriors from Tenochtitlan shouted to the Spanish,

00:50:40.620 or not to the Spanish allies, they shouted to the people they were fighting, maybe the

00:50:43.140 Tex Collins, like, basically people from Tenochtitlan were like, where's Madeleine Sine?

00:50:47.060 Can we talk to her? So she came, and they offered full peace, but only if the Spanish 0.90

00:50:51.720 promised to return back to europe the spanish refused talks of compromise came to nothing

00:50:58.780 the spanish only wanted capitulation the machica would rather die than capitulate

00:51:04.420 and in time most of them did die between battles and smallpox so on august 13th

00:51:13.060 quatamock who is the new emperor who taken over after moctezuma allowed himself to be taken

00:51:18.480 presumably because he'd run out of warriors to fight for him and then Cortez and the Spanish

00:51:23.800 laid claim to Tenochtitlan which was now this beautiful city now completely destroyed on ruins

00:51:30.760 so he set up in across the lake in the mainland in the captured city of Coyoacan living in the

00:51:38.620 palace there and Malintzin joined him there and so from there from like across the lake Cortez

00:51:45.320 oversaw the rebuilding of tenochtitlan which was redone in a european style so like european

00:51:51.420 style building so the indigenous people were who were there who were good at building were trained

00:51:56.540 in how to build in this style malinzine um at this point was overseeing her own household

00:52:03.660 oh also cortez's wife had arrived from cuba so he was there with his wife catalina malinzine was 0.52

00:52:09.660 off in her own house where it seems like she started her own secret storefront out of her

00:52:16.140 quarters in the palace despite her growing power like her power which is only getting bigger she 1.00

00:52:22.080 was still vulnerable and may have wanted to amass whatever wealth she could for herself like because

00:52:26.780 who knows what's going to happen next a few years later in a totally unrelated matter cortez did say

00:52:31.640 that there had been extra goods brought to their house or to the house in koyokan but they were

00:52:36.340 from the Nahua people and intended for Malincene. These gifts included fruits, herbal incense, and

00:52:41.000 tobacco, which she liked to smoke. I said that a bit backwards. So Malincene and Cortez lived

00:52:47.300 together in the palace until his wife Catalina returned, at which point she started overseeing

00:52:53.080 her own household. But then Catalina, her stay there was short-lived because Cortez murdered her

00:52:59.620 or maybe she died of some other reason, but for some reason she was strangled to death after

00:53:05.880 arguing with cortez and being alone with him in his bedroom so malinzine gave birth to a child

00:53:12.840 who is the father of the child cortez so this is another big sort of point of debate where it's

00:53:20.640 like was she his lover was she his sex slave like were they had they been having an affair this 0.52

00:53:26.880 whole time did they just have a one-night stand did he like assault her like we do not know

00:53:31.760 the situation and i'm not going to speculate on it because we don't know and this is a big point

00:53:38.580 of debate about her legacy what we do know is that they lived together for a while and then

00:53:43.560 nine months later madeline seen gave birth to a child and cortez was the father so the son was

00:53:47.820 named martin and unusually for the illegitimate child of a spanish nobleman martin was given

00:53:54.360 his father's surname cortez and he was seen as cortez's heir because he was his first

00:53:59.360 son and then i guess tenochtitlan kept being rebuilt she was running her store

00:54:05.920 waving her little toddler and then two years later cortez was like guess what i'm going to

00:54:11.220 honduras and you're coming with me so honduras is like in central america it's like i looked

00:54:17.700 on google maps it's like because i was just wondering how long does it take to walk from

00:54:22.180 mexico city to honduras and now with like roads and things it's like a couple days but for them

00:54:27.880 there was not roads and things in fact it was jungle and mountains but the thing is that one

00:54:32.740 of cortez's former captains had just like gone rogue taken over honduras in his own name instead

00:54:38.240 of like for spain and so cortez's job was to go back and like reclaim honduras for spain but he

00:54:44.440 knew he needed malinzine to make it there and back to communicate and also just her diplomatic skills

00:54:49.660 etc so by now valenzine had a three-year-old son and a apparently thriving business so why

00:54:58.080 would she agree to go well partially like did she have a choice secondly she knew that cortez

00:55:04.780 couldn't go without her so i think it's not she wouldn't have been like no i don't want to go but

00:55:08.620 she's like okay i have no choice in this matter but i'm gonna make him work for it so she got as

00:55:13.460 much as she could out of him before agreeing to join him and of course she did like the trip is

00:55:17.480 going to be lengthy probably deadly she had better things to do than go over land through the jungles

00:55:23.200 and mountains of maya country areas in which she had been previously enslaved and where there were

00:55:27.780 crocodiles and other dangers including the weather but she was like okay i will go with you if you

00:55:36.600 provide me with a noble spanish husband and if i can marry that husband before the expedition heads

00:55:41.520 off because cortez was a liar and she wanted to make sure that she got this right away and she 0.99

00:55:47.020 demanded that as a dowry for the marriage, she should be given control over Oluta, the village 0.98

00:55:52.060 where she'd been born. And showing how much Cortez truly needed her, he agreed to all of this. So

00:55:57.660 Malinzin was married before they left. Her husband was also going on the trip because he was one of

00:56:02.960 Cortez's highest ranking officers. So her husband was named Juan Jaramillo. And by marrying him,

00:56:09.180 Malinzin was now the wife of his Spanish nobleman, no longer the single mother of an illegitimate

00:56:14.060 child she was now a Spanish lady with all the rights accorded to this position and at the

00:56:19.220 beginning of the trip so they paused in Uluta to hang out in Malintzin's hometown where she could

00:56:27.120 reunite with the people she grew up with the local indigenous lords and kings were summoned and

00:56:31.860 Malintzin addressed them she spoke with people there perhaps it was a younger brother maybe even

00:56:37.100 her mother like the people who she was with didn't speak Nahuatl so they don't know who she's talking

00:56:41.980 to exactly but whoever she saw and whatever she said it seems she got to see who she wanted and

00:56:47.220 to tell him what she wanted to say like the last time she was there she had been eight ten years

00:56:51.980 old and was taken away to be enslaved and then she comes back and she's wearing these beautiful

00:56:56.840 outfits she's married to a spanish nobleman she's like being drawn so big in all the pictures like

00:57:03.160 she's become so important since she was last there oh important to note because cortez was

00:57:09.320 remember last time he left he left Tenochtitlan like it all went into revolt so he's worried that 0.59

00:57:14.800 the Mechica would rise up and revolt against him if he left so that's why he made the emperor come 0.86

00:57:20.500 along with them which is like okay so that's Cuauhtemoc again the Moctezuma's successor slash

00:57:28.080 cousin and then in another sort of like highly divisive situation midway through the trip to

00:57:35.800 honduras cortez executed quatamac he later claimed that quatamac had hatched a plot against him but

00:57:43.180 it may have been a misunderstanding like maybe quatamac was just like joking but someone took

00:57:47.640 it seriously anyway cortez who is like i can't emphasize enough like so awful he had each the

00:57:54.080 men involved in the quote conspiracy tortured separately melancine would have had to translate

00:57:58.140 the words they uttered as they're being tortured awful by the time they got to honduras the captain

00:58:04.540 who had gone rogue had already was dead and so cortez pretty easily took back control and then

00:58:10.000 they headed back to mexico where to no one's surprise obviously rebellion was breaking out

00:58:15.020 again because this was just not a stable situation and somewhere in there marlene scene like after 0.96

00:58:21.460 the honduras thing she gave birth to uh her first child with her husband jaramillo which was a girl

00:58:28.360 named maria as you may not be surprised to find out based on everything i've said so far about

00:58:34.320 cortez he did not have the authority to actually give malinzine like to make her the governor of

00:58:40.560 over any land in fact he didn't have the authority to give anyone control over any land he was just

00:58:45.880 like making this up as he went but the marriage was still real and being married to jaramillo

00:58:51.880 provided security for malinzine and her daughter maria so her son martin who was by now like six

00:58:57.960 years old so while they were in honduras martin had been staying with cortez's cousin and it was

00:59:03.520 decided that he would stay there because just for stability for him so he would stay in the

00:59:07.740 household where he was but malentine jaramillo and maria were like a little family unit they

00:59:14.280 moved on to a plot of land near the main square and in 1528 they were given land near the woods

00:59:19.800 of chapultepec to build another home plant an orchard and graze their sheep so she's just like

00:59:25.300 everything's been chaos like the first 10 years of her life growing up she's a kid

00:59:29.420 second 10 years of her life in slate and then this is like eight years into this like next

00:59:36.180 third of her life she's just like finally like able to just like live a little domestic thing

00:59:41.720 have a family have an orchard we don't know what their relationship is like like we know so little

00:59:47.120 about anything but here's what we do know so from later sources who remembered like who knew them

00:59:53.840 when they were together we know that jaramillo's friends teased him for marrying malinzine not

00:59:58.340 because she was nawa because at this point the nawa noble like um aristocrats were still really

01:00:07.120 heavily valued it wasn't they didn't look down on her because she was indigenous but they made

01:00:12.760 fun of him for marrying her because she was a strong independent woman who ran around translating

01:00:16.420 and the spanish people were in this highly patriarchal society where like the wife was

01:00:23.220 supposed to be quiet and whatever and madeline scene was just like doing her own thing so by

01:00:27.540 marrying her Jaramillo accepted having to put up with these sorts of jokes um and apparently he

01:00:32.420 was not afraid of the jokes or of marrying her which speaks well of him so Martine her son is

01:00:38.120 six and he was he and Cortez were heading back to Spain so he could be legitimized by the pope and

01:00:44.680 made his official heir so she was allowed like thank you for allowing her to say goodbye to him

01:00:50.900 and so he peaced off to spain and then i'm sorry for the suddenness of this a few months later

01:00:58.580 madeline seen died of probably smallpox by january of 1529 she was recorded as dead

01:01:06.020 um her daughter maria would have been around three years old so anticlimactic there story

01:01:14.760 guess what not done so i'm going to talk a bit about her children because that that leads us 0.65

01:01:21.220 into like the stuff about her legacy etc so maria her daughter lived entirely as a spanish woman

01:01:28.820 but she never forgot who her mother was and was proud to speak her name um juan jaramillo 1.00

01:01:35.640 remarried a wealthy spanish noble woman called beatrice who treated maria cruelly as stepmother

01:01:43.180 so it's a real cinderella situation when maria was around 14 years old she fell for a guy named

01:01:47.900 don luis but her father said she was too young to marry to force her father's hand don luis spread

01:01:54.380 a rumor that he'd had an amorous interlude with maria and to save the family dishonor they were

01:01:58.860 permitted to marry so not quite a secret sexy marriage but like scandalous for sure um she had

01:02:06.360 some miscarriages stillbirths etc and then at age 20 maria had a son who survived named pedro

01:02:14.860 she eventually had one more surviving child and then after jaramillo died stop me if you've heard

01:02:22.220 this before he left a family with lots of debts and there's a whole complex situation with his

01:02:28.400 estate planning where it's like how much the estate would go to maria and how much would go

01:02:32.400 his wife beatrice so beatrice didn't have any children so haramio's only heir was maria but

01:02:39.220 beatrice was like i only married him for his money so i should get the money this led to a lengthy

01:02:43.480 court battle like 20 years long and this is actually where we got a lot of the information 1.00

01:02:47.920 about madeline seen because um part of the court case was beatrice being like maria shouldn't get 1.00

01:02:55.220 anything her mother was just this like trashy like indigenous person so that's where a lot of 1.00

01:03:00.040 the conquistadors would be like oh no actually melancine was great like she was great like what 1.00

01:03:03.760 a cool person she was like we just tried to find people who testified melancine like was awful and

01:03:10.460 not great but everyone was like actually she was great so 1562 so this is 35 years later martin

01:03:22.320 returned from spain along with his siblings so hernan cortez had married again in spain and had

01:03:28.700 more sons weirdly or kind of grossly he called his illegitimate his legitimate other son also

01:03:35.140 martin so martin came with his brother martin and the other cortez bros they came back to mexico

01:03:41.700 because her name cortez had died and he wanted to be his remains to be brought to mexico so martin

01:03:47.120 and maria reunited for the first time since they were like three and six but within months of his

01:03:51.760 arrival maria died aged 39 she'd had various health issues martin would end up eventually

01:03:59.000 exiled from mexico for his own scandalous reasons and he returned to spain where he eventually died

01:04:03.900 in 1595 aged around 70 and he had gotten married and had kids and his son fernando chose to return

01:04:11.300 to mexico where he received a government position in vera cruz which was near where malinzine had

01:04:16.360 been born who was his grandmother and fernando had heard about melin scene from martin and wrote

01:04:21.700 about her proudly so like melin scenes children and grandchildren like knew about her and like

01:04:28.260 shared who she was and how she was cool maria's son pedro grew up in spain but then also returned

01:04:35.040 to mexico and married he had four children all of whom were also raised knowing how impressive

01:04:39.540 their grandmother melin scene had been and apparently this family tree continues still

01:04:45.600 today in mexico there's people who are the descendants of all these people so cultural

01:04:51.920 impact so no none of the spanish people other than geronimo de aguilar who just had sore feelings

01:04:58.340 ever turned on mylene senior said anything disparaging about her those who knew her

01:05:02.920 remembered her unfailing courage and good humor in all circumstances some quotes from them i think

01:05:08.680 these are from the court trials um one of them wrote after our lord god it was she who caused

01:05:14.020 new spain to be won another said without her we couldn't do anything another wrote if it wasn't

01:05:19.580 for her we wouldn't have won this land like they all knew how vital she was to everything that

01:05:26.180 happened but so in the 200 years after melian zine's death so like getting into the like 1800s

01:05:33.140 the image of an indigenous person helping colonizers became so common it didn't merit

01:05:38.200 notice as so many people now took on the sort of job she had done so she was at the time like she

01:05:43.520 was the person who spoke spanish and nahua but then lots and lots and lots of indigenous people

01:05:47.700 learned spanish and so it stopped being notable what she had done because so many other people

01:05:53.080 were doing the same job and then as mexican nationalism grew in the 1800s and then with the

01:05:58.480 mexican revolution like this paved the way for the mexican revolution of the early 1900s anti

01:06:04.880 malinche sentiment grew so in 1826 an anonymous novel was published called

01:06:11.640 chico tencal chico tencat and maline scene appears in this as a character called marina

01:06:19.340 and she was suddenly this is i think the first time she was presented as a lustful conniving

01:06:24.520 traitor so she was seen as a scapegoat or she became a scapegoat for colonization in general

01:06:30.460 and was viewed as an indigenous woman whose lust for the white man led her to betray an entire 0.95

01:06:35.780 nation which again like bear in mind when she sided with cortez she wouldn't have known that 0.54

01:06:43.680 this was going to decimate all indigenous population in all of mexico along with smallpox

01:06:49.360 but also there wasn't a unified indigenous people for her to betray um so her legacy began to

01:06:59.540 solidify like from this point on as a sort of combination of like eve from the story of adam

01:07:04.220 and eve in the bible who like famously was seduced by the snake and then banished i'm sorry i don't

01:07:10.720 know the story um you know all people to sin or whatever but she's also sort of like the snake

01:07:15.980 from that story like the sort of like tempting evil person so she was seen as this highly 0.95

01:07:21.180 sexualized woman who chose lust over her own people she was and still is sometimes referred 1.00

01:07:26.900 to as la chingada which is a insulting term in mexican spanish that means basically the one who 1.00

01:07:34.660 was fucked like not like oh like oh that person was fucked over but like literally like penetrated 1.00

01:07:41.460 like this like fucked woman she has been called the mexican eve cortez's whore 1.00

01:07:48.820 there are terms in i think it's in mexican spanish but maybe other places too um malinchismo 1.00

01:07:56.300 and malinchista are terms derived from the name la malinche and this is an insult that means you

01:08:04.180 have betrayed your country so you're a traitor like giving up the native for the foreign sort

01:08:08.260 of like a sellout in the 1970s so really malincin became the scapegoat like the fall guy for

01:08:17.560 the spanish having taken over mexico where it's like there's a lot of reasons why that happened

01:08:26.180 it wasn't anyway but it's easy to blame a woman especially when she had the love child of a 1.00

01:08:34.560 conqueror so in the 1970s mexican and mexican-american feminists came to question this 0.96

01:08:39.860 interpretation she had been enslaved by her own people so why would she side with them 1.00

01:08:45.100 what should she have like what should she have done when she was given into the hands of armed

01:08:49.680 spanish men like how could she like rather than seeing her as a devious schemer they suggested

01:08:56.300 we acknowledge that she was a victim in the 1980s and 1990s some writers adjusted this view yet 0.92

01:09:03.660 again arguing that she was not only victimized like maybe she was a victim and a schemer like 0.78

01:09:10.240 after all she was clearly resourceful and clever and a survivor who did what she could within her

01:09:14.620 own context to preserve herself in a chaotic and ever-changing situation and then it's like

01:09:19.580 what is the responsibility of one person like in terms of her one of the podcasts i listened to

01:09:26.180 was talking about um as a feminist icon i think it was the project 1520 podcast where it's like

01:09:32.520 is she a fem like i would not the whole idea of a feminist icon is problematic to begin with but

01:09:38.980 like she oversaw a lot of awful stuff happening to men and happening to women like she oversaw 0.99

01:09:46.640 indigenous people being turned into like being enslaved like but if she was like you know what 0.57

01:09:52.880 i'm gonna stand up for all women like she would have just been killed so like what was within the 0.97

01:09:57.700 scope of what she was possible for her to do and what she did was she ensured her own survival um

01:10:03.680 tried to make the best life she could for her children i don't know like i don't think we

01:10:08.700 should put it on her it's like anyway it's this is the broader cultural context that other podcasts

01:10:15.160 that i am recommending get into a bit more so um there's also the question of like was she the only

01:10:22.460 person who could have done what she did would someone else in a similar situation necessarily

01:10:26.400 not have done the same thing she was crucial in the conquest and clearly was a strong-willed and

01:10:31.780 very intelligent person not like not anyone could have succeeded in translation as well as she had

01:10:37.520 like she had these instinctive understanding of how to persuade people how to talk to different

01:10:41.220 groups she picked up languages really well she had all these skills but i'm sure other people

01:10:45.680 there could have had those skills too um like eventually it seems like just because of the

01:10:54.360 technological differences and the numbers like the spanish would have taken over mexico regardless

01:11:00.800 seemingly like if it wasn't her with cortez it might have been some other spanish man with some

01:11:05.980 other Nahua woman and had a similar effect potentially this is um in the fifth son Camilla

01:11:14.260 Townsend's book she explains really well about how the technological advances it's not like one

01:11:19.980 culture was better than the other culture and it was that the Spanish had superior

01:11:26.800 technology and weapons like cannons muskets and this isn't because they were like more

01:11:34.140 it wasn't because they were better or anything like all has to do with geography and like

01:11:39.280 how long agriculture had been a thing in like eurasia versus how long it had been in the

01:11:46.280 americas like the longer a society is in one place which society starts doing once there's farming

01:11:52.260 you can't move around as much then you get the technological innovation and just geographically

01:11:58.200 just like the way plants work like that hadn't happened in the americas until later than it had

01:12:05.100 happened in europe so just the situation that it was was the spanish just had superior technology

01:12:12.620 they had a whole bunch of people that could come over and also the people of mexico like the mayans

01:12:20.580 um the machica empire and then also the nahua in general like they were not an aligned force if

01:12:27.220 they had been maybe they would have had a better chance but cortez was able to with the help of

01:12:31.180 million scene to take advantage of these divisions to break them up so they weren't just one two two

01:12:37.420 sides in the war there's all these different teams because we've no records of marlene scenes own

01:12:41.660 like no diaries no letters it's easy slash tempting to ascribe all kinds of motivations

01:12:47.800 onto what she did like why did she do what she did and this is partly why she's been elevated

01:12:53.440 from a historical person to like a folklore like mythic presence because we know so little about

01:13:00.140 who she really was so it's easy to sort of like make her represent whatever you want her to

01:13:04.800 represent and that's like this podcast I'm trying to say like here's the facts of like what we know

01:13:08.360 of her life but this is I can't not get into this cultural context so Camilla Townsend says

01:13:14.940 such figures are not people but rather symbols and hence can become lightning rods in the best

01:13:20.380 case perhaps they are not reviled but still remain less than fully human in the popular imagination

01:13:25.600 it is after all hard to take seriously characters who never say anything our books tend to be full

01:13:31.760 of the profound and witty thoughts of colonizers and others who once held pens in their hands

01:13:36.200 while slaves indians and other non-literate figures remain shadowy and relatively uninteresting 0.95

01:13:42.040 one-dimensional beings even in the most sympathetic of studies so the sort of take of

01:13:50.020 malinzine as la malinche as this villain um is sort of coincides with a lot of folktales and to

01:14:01.500 the point that she her story has been sort of associated with a folkloric ghost of la llorona

01:14:08.060 aka the crying woman and the monsters podcast has a great episode about la llorona so according to

01:14:14.700 legend la llorona this ghost woman so apparently she drowned her children in a river and then

01:14:20.520 drowned herself after seeing what she had done she haunts near bodies of water weeping and looking

01:14:25.260 for her dead children and causes misfortune and death to those who get too close in some

01:14:31.520 incarnations of the legend la llorona is malinzin or la malinche who felt jilted when cortez left 0.85

01:14:38.820 her for his wife when she learns he planned to send martin back to spain she killed her son

01:14:43.940 rather than herself rather than be separated from him but of course malinzin did not lose

01:14:50.580 her children thanks largely to her efforts they survived their youth became adults won places for

01:14:56.520 themselves in the world of conquerors and lived to have children of their own so a mythical

01:15:02.940 malinche figures in countless local indigenous dances across mexico um sometimes in these

01:15:08.820 performances there's a character there's separate characters one is doña marina who's cortez's

01:15:13.620 translator while the woman named malinche is a powerful consort sometimes with cortez and

01:15:18.900 sometimes with the indigenous king um in some of these dances the character of la malinche has all

01:15:23.560 the attributes of a goddess so she's like her story is really taken on all this other cultural

01:15:30.180 meaning which so you won't be surprised to hear that la malinche is a character in numerous books

01:15:34.780 and films sometimes as a heroine sometimes as a victim sometimes as a seductress or traitor or a 0.56

01:15:40.640 pawn she's been the subject of operas musicals plays basically any kind of storytelling that

01:15:45.640 has ever existed there's been a la malinche retelling more recently there's a series on

01:15:51.380 amazon prime called hernan which is about this whole time period and malinche is there in a

01:15:57.080 character there's also a series i think you can find on youtube um spanish language series called

01:16:03.560 malinche um which tells her story and presents her like as a person and then for the first time

01:16:10.700 for a person we've talked about on vulgar history in the star trek universe there's a starship called

01:16:16.460 the USS Malinche this appeared in an episode of Star Trek Deep Space Nine because um one of the

01:16:23.380 writers or producers is from Mexico City and just as I was researching this I want to let you know

01:16:29.220 so a new exhibit just opened February 2022 um at the Denver Art Museum in Colorado so if you're

01:16:37.100 near there check it out and then slash also let me know and then slash also send me pictures if

01:16:42.180 you're allowed to take pictures so this exhibition sounds really really really interesting so it

01:16:46.660 interrogates her legacy through an artistic lens the exhibition is named trader survivor icon the

01:16:53.300 legacy of la malinche the curator victoria i lyle says in examining and presenting the legacy of

01:17:00.040 malinche from the 16th century through today we hope to illuminate the multifaceted image of a

01:17:04.840 woman unable to share her own story allowing visitors to form their own impressions of who

01:17:09.400 she was and the struggle she faced one of the show's highlights is an artwork by cecilia alvarez

01:17:17.900 called la malinche tania sus razones from 1995 which depicts a tearful malinche in the foreground

01:17:24.760 and in the background a poly polyptych so not a triptych polyptych images of her enslavement

01:17:33.620 and trade to cortez behind her so the title of this artwork means malinche had her reasons

01:17:38.660 which i love this painting's title hints at a newfound empathy for the controversial figure

01:17:43.840 so in terms of scoring i'm really passing this on to polly who i was just like trying to figure

01:17:53.940 the scores and it's going back and forth i'm like what do you think about this so here is how we're 0.98

01:17:58.560 going to score her so scandalousness here's what polly says i think that taking the time she lived 0.95

01:18:03.560 into consideration i give her seven or an eight because she went from being a slave to being the

01:18:07.640 most powerful woman in new spain she also dared to talk to moctezuma which very few people were

01:18:13.680 allowed to do let alone look at him and i think these are all wonderful points like often the

01:18:19.500 scandalousness we're looking at like oh did she have like did she poison somebody did she have

01:18:23.400 affairs and there's a gajillion um theories that she did all those things but in terms of her era

01:18:29.960 and time like what she did would have been scandalous to everybody around her so i'm going

01:18:35.140 to give her a seven for scandalousness uh next is the scheminess which i feel in terms of just

01:18:44.500 the word and like the cultural context of this i feel like we're looking at her cleverness her

01:18:49.540 resourcefulness not like is she this like evil temptress but you know what i mean by scheminess

01:18:54.520 on this podcast polly says i'd give her a nine an eight or a nine yes she totally did it out of

01:19:00.280 survival because as a slave she had no choice but she also hated the machica so in a sense i feel

01:19:05.120 like it was a type of revenge for her and almost all the codex the machica left behind she's always

01:19:10.100 depicted as a head of cortez taller than cortez or cortez appears as being quiet the usual

01:19:16.000 interpretation is that she was really calling the shots making the deals or alliances i think 0.95

01:19:21.420 her scheminess is great i think she was so smart and so clever and made the best out of what was 0.96

01:19:28.420 going on and really found ways to turn what was going on to her personal advantage whether that

01:19:33.560 was teaming with the spanish or teaming with cortez like she she saw what was going on and

01:19:40.460 was able to make it work for her so that's a nine for scheminess i think significance was the one

01:19:46.780 where i was just like really like i can't i am not capable of understanding this because i'm not from

01:19:51.240 this culture and i don't understand the context so polly says significance is definitely a 10

01:19:56.260 she's such a prevalent historical figure in mexican history even though she wasn't the only 0.72

01:20:01.060 so this asshole cortez captured to not chitlan without her he would not have gotten to the point

01:20:05.880 where he had enough resources and allies to do it yeah so the significance i mean 10 i would go 0.97

01:20:13.280 with like 10 plus if that was available to us because the reverberations of her actions are

01:20:21.560 one thing but then also just the way that she is like woven so deeply into mexican culture it's like 1.00

01:20:27.280 so much significance sexism so sexism poly suggests a nine or a ten her condition as a slave 1.00

01:20:36.480 made it even worse because i think she ultimately was raped in a sense she was used to be used as an 0.99

01:20:41.460 item and it was a struggle for her to negotiate with the local rulers because she was a woman 0.86

01:20:45.480 um and then she definitely knew her value by the end of her life but cortez also used a child as 0.99

01:20:51.760 a sort of black male ultimately took martine away from her like she had as much power she could get

01:20:56.700 in this world but it's not it's not that much power so i'm gonna say 9.5 for sexism so when 0.54

01:21:05.760 we add this all up we get oh my goodness 35.5 which is the third highest score ever 35.5 so

01:21:19.720 on the fredigan memorial scandal to scale fredigan has 38 queen margot 37.5 madeline seen

01:21:26.580 35.5 joanna of naples 33 and i feel this is entirely appropriate because of all the reasons

01:21:35.840 we just talked about and then it's wild when you're like and all this happened and then she

01:21:39.080 died age 29 and you're like wait what just happened like her life i talked about it a few

01:21:44.040 times it's like in thirds right where it's like the first 10 years she was at home with her family

01:21:49.160 and then the second 10 years she was enslaved and then the third 10 years was everything we

01:21:54.480 just talked about like with the spanish ending with her dying of smallpox like

01:21:57.840 so much happened like if you look at the um just a second i have like a timeline

01:22:04.280 how much happened how much her world changed from the time she was a kid to the time that

01:22:11.780 she passed away in such a short period of time. So she was born, let me just see. So Malinche was

01:22:19.640 born around 1500. So she was born around the same year that Sayyida El Hora got married. Sayyida El

01:22:29.180 Hora was 15 when Malinche was born. Malinche died 1529. So Sayyida El Hora reigned for like,

01:22:38.140 reigned or yeah was governor for like another 30 years like my lean scene was born lived her whole

01:22:44.940 life and died and say to el hurrah still lived 30 more years after that like it's such a brief yet

01:22:51.420 action-packed period of time with such reverberations both in like world historic events

01:22:56.040 but then also in this cultural context thank you again so much to polly for bringing this story to

01:23:01.000 my attention it's such i've never ever studied before i started preparing for this episode

01:23:07.220 anything about mexican history which was clearly a hole in my research to begin with and then just

01:23:13.920 the sort of just surrounding myself with all this information like there's so much there's so much

01:23:20.080 more i want to read about i understand the context so much better just about like mexican culture now

01:23:26.320 um yeah and also i appreciate seeing this side of things because we did the um isabel of castile

01:23:36.300 episode a couple seasons ago where it's kind of like and then she paid for christopher columbus

01:23:40.540 to go over and then like you know genocide happened so to see like what the real world

01:23:44.420 effects are of all of that is really i think important to see like a personal story of like

01:23:51.640 how this affected one person's life and yeah if you want to learn about hernan cortez join the

01:23:57.780 patreon because i will be doing a whole it'll probably be at least this long the episode about

01:24:01.920 him because there's just a lot to discuss of i do not find anyone in her story worthy of the lady

01:24:06.900 jane seamer memorial award for outstanding supporting performance juan jaramillo seems

01:24:11.320 okay but i don't know enough about him to give him that um just a couple reminders so if you

01:24:17.200 go to vulgarhistory.com i've got all the show notes there as well as there's a form like if

01:24:21.920 you click on contact you can suggest people who you think would be good to discuss on the podcast

01:24:26.780 or send me feedback about the podcast or whatever you want if you go to vulgarhistory.store vulgar

01:24:31.700 history.s-t-o-r-e you can find all of our vulgar history merch including a special season five

01:24:39.780 design it says tits out is for everybody because that's really what i want us to all take away from 0.94

01:24:45.320 the season and when you're on the store you can use code tits out for free u.s shipping or tits

01:24:50.080 out 10 for 10 off i've mentioned the patreon a few times that's if you go to patreon.com

01:24:54.580 and foster writer as we can pledge various amounts to get various things the top tier

01:25:00.640 is the glorianas and that's where you get to listen to the bonus episodes every month i do

01:25:05.480 the one episode of so this asshole hernan like no one has deserved one of these episodes more 0.81

01:25:10.760 than hernan cortez has after all the stuff i've had to read about him but then also vulgar peace 0.97

01:25:15.220 theater episodes are there that's where we've done me lana with johnson elson epstein talk

01:25:20.780 about costume dramas we've done shakespeare in love amadeus it's a good time anyway that's that

01:25:26.460 you can follow slash dm me on instagram we're at vulgar history pod after every episode i usually

01:25:34.140 post some stuff in the stories there too just like polls to get your thoughts about various things

01:25:38.280 pictures and stuff and then on twitter we're at vulgar history you can also email me if you feel

01:25:43.340 like that i don't know suggestions of people to talk about feedback vulgar history pod at gmail.com

01:25:49.080 that's everything this was such an interesting subject i can't recommend enough um camilla

01:25:58.780 townsend's two books so melinson's choices and then also fifth son a new history of the aztecs

01:26:04.540 i'll put those links in the show notes too monstrous podcast the project 1521 podcast 0.98

01:26:09.500 yeah so keep your mask on keep your tits out and i'll talk to you all next time 0.96

01:26:19.080 Transcription by CastingWords 0.99

01:26:49.080 The war is over and both sides lost.

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Vulgar History - March 23, 2022

International, part 4： Mexico's Notorious La Malinche

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