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00:00:54.040Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.
00:01:04.020My name is Anne Foster, and I'm so excited to share this episode with you.
00:01:08.820I'm talking with author Rebecca Lehman, author of a new novel called The Beheading Game.
00:01:14.460And when I tell you, I saw the announcement that this book was going to be published maybe
00:01:19.280two years ago. And I read the premise of it. And it made me look up Rebecca Lehman on Instagram,
00:01:25.720messaged her to be like, Hi, when your book is published in two years, please come on my podcast,
00:01:29.220I have to talk to you about it. And she was like, Okay, my energy might have been a bit intense,
00:01:33.180but she was cool with it. And then been promoted and like People Magazine talked about it when I
00:01:38.400saw that like there was a cover reveal in People Magazine. I messaged her again to be like, Hey,
00:01:41.640remember me, please come on my podcast when this book is published. So she I don't I feel like I
00:01:46.240might've been at the front of the line of people begging to talk to her about this book. And so
00:01:50.160I got to read an early copy of it. I was obsessed when I say this book could not be more on brand
00:01:57.100for me, for you, for the Vulgar History Podcast. It's when I tell you the premise, you'll get it.
00:02:02.960The premise of this book is, and it's a novel, it is historical fiction, I guess, technically
00:02:08.300fantasy fiction, because if only this had happened. So the book starts with Anne Boleyn
00:02:13.920wakes up after having her head cut off by henry the eighth she wakes up and she is just like oh
00:02:20.380there's my head um i'm in a coffin she sews her head back on and she just like gets going and1.00
00:02:25.540she's like you know what i need to do get revenge against this motherfucker i'm going she's gonna0.99
00:02:30.800she's determined to go and murder henry the eighth amazing premise incredible premise and when i tell0.99
00:02:37.260you this book. So good. It's so well written. Like it's this amazing bananas premise. And
00:02:43.860Rebecca, we talked about this in the interview. She did so much historical research to see what
00:02:48.060was life like, like Anne Boleyn, you know, she's like walking around the city. What was the city
00:02:52.200like? There's a bit of sapphic energy in this book. It's just got literally everything you
00:02:57.480could want in a book. It's so good. I'm so excited to have Rebecca here to talk with me about this
00:03:02.700book that I think is going to be everyone's favorite. Everybody has to read it so you can
00:03:06.540talk to me about it. So please enjoy this conversation with Rebecca Lehman about her
00:03:10.820incredible novel, The Beheading Game. So I'm joined today by Rebecca Lehman, author of
00:03:22.180The Beheading Game. Welcome, Rebecca. Hi, Anne. It's so nice to meet you. Thank you for having
00:03:27.740me on Vulgar History. I'm so excited to be here. I wanted to let the listeners know that I think
00:03:33.080this is the longest lead time I've ever had between offering to have someone on the podcast
00:03:37.640and having the person on the podcast. Because when your book was first announced in like
00:03:41.100Publishers Weekly, I was like, hi, this is like two years ago. I'm like, can I interview you
00:03:46.460in two years? I remember that. I was so excited to hear from you then. And now it's great for
00:03:52.160it to come to fruition now. Yeah. My cat is here. She's excited too. But yeah, no, it was funny.
00:03:57.760Like the, I think I saw the announcement of your book come out and I was like, oh man,
00:04:00.980that sounds great. And I don't know, I feel like five or six people sent me, they're like,
00:04:04.000Anne, did you see about this? Cause it's just like so on brand for like me and my podcast.
00:04:08.820Do you want to explain to everybody like the premise of the book? Like what's got everybody
00:04:12.140so excited? Yeah, absolutely. So the beheading game is an alternative history about Anne Boleyn.
00:04:20.540In the book, she wakes up after her own beheading. So kind of like the night of her beheading,
00:04:26.740Anne Boleyn was beheaded on the 19th of May, 1536 on charges of adultery, insistent treason that many historians now think were false charges.
00:04:37.840But she wakes up the night of her beheading.
00:04:40.580Her head is still off and she escapes from her grave with her head under her arm, flees the Tower of London, sews her head back on.
00:04:50.520And then she goes on a revenge quest to kill Henry VIII, to try to kill Henry VIII before he can marry his next wife, Jane Seymour, because in real life, Henry VIII marries Jane Seymour just 11 days after Anne Boleyn's execution, which for me is one of those big signs that perhaps it was a set of trumped up charges just to get her out of the way.
00:05:14.800Like if your husband has you murdered by the state and has the next wife waiting in the wings, maybe it's not, you know, real charges that are being prosecuted there.
00:05:25.740So she goes on a quest to try to kill him before he can marry Jane Seymour because she wants to protect her daughter Elizabeth's claim to the throne.
00:05:33.320And she's concerned that once Henry marries Jane, they will have another heir and displace Elizabeth.
00:05:40.260So her primary focus is protecting her legacy via Elizabeth and protecting Elizabeth, who at the time of Anne Boleyn's execution was not yet three years old.
00:05:57.940I know there's a lot of excitement around your book.
00:06:00.020And I think it's just like so many people, especially with things like most recently, I guess, Six, the musical, like people are just like so on board the side of Anne Boleyn, the side of the wives against Henry VIII.
00:06:10.940So just imagining one of them going to kill him. Everyone's just like, yes.
00:06:16.240That's how I also felt. That's why I wrote the book.
00:06:19.440Well, that was my first question, I guess. Well, kind of two connected questions, which is kind of like, what is your history of being interested in Anne Boleyn?
00:06:26.240And then what was the spark of the idea for this book?
00:06:28.600Yeah, well, you know, I am an American. And so I didn't get a great history, British history as a kid, you know, like I knew there was an English king with a lot of wives. And I think like a lot of people of my generation, I encountered Anne Boleyn in like the Tudors and some of that early 21st century media about her.
00:06:52.780and I always I was always really bothered by the way that she was depicted like even in the
00:06:58.920Tudors where I think she has kind of a complex character she's often portrayed as like a home
00:07:04.180wrecker someone who uses her sexuality to get what she wants out of people and there's a general
00:07:10.480sense of like well she got what she deserved when she gets executed like she flew too close to the1.00
00:07:16.680sun her wax wings melted um that's what she had coming to her but I just thought that there had1.00
00:07:22.540to be more about her than that. And it doesn't take a lot of research to find out that that0.95
00:07:28.500actually Anne Boleyn was a really intelligent woman. She spoke multiple languages. She was
00:07:33.720a theologian. She was a true believer in the Protestant Reformation. So like, you know,
00:07:39.720for example, the story that like Henry VIII breaks with the Catholic Church to marry Anne Boleyn
00:07:44.640is true, but also Anne Boleyn is pushing him to leave the Catholic Church because she wants
00:07:50.500England to join this Protestant Reformation. And that was really important to her. And she was
00:07:55.080very well read. She was a strong character. She kind of dominated many rooms that she
00:08:01.440would enter. I think if she lived today, she would be so full of charisma that it would be1.00
00:08:06.880like impossible to ignore her as she moved through the world. And that would probably1.00
00:08:10.920still bother people. Because I think that when you are a woman who is smart and in charge and0.88
00:08:16.780has a lot of charisma, people resent that then as in now, I hope less now than 500 years ago.
00:08:24.160But I think that part of the story really caught my attention. Like, why is this woman who has all
00:08:29.380of these things going for her treated as this pariah of history? We know when in fact, she's1.00
00:08:34.720just like a victim of an egomaniacal king's abuse. So I wanted to find a way to like retell this
00:08:41.860story and get, give her a fairer shake and get her point of view in there and do this kind of1.00
00:08:47.200feminist retelling. And I went over and over like ways to do this. Um, how could I retell her story?1.00
00:08:54.060What if she escaped before she was beheaded? Or what if she like married her cousin, James Butler
00:08:58.640and went to Ireland and lived in a castle there and didn't marry Henry VIII at all? Or what if I
00:09:02.880set the story forward in time and she had more resources? She lived in the 20th century and
00:09:07.500could like you know call a domestic violence hotline or something um but what i thought was
00:09:13.300the thing that makes her story really resonate is that she is beheaded you know that like the0.99
00:09:17.500thing that stands out to us across time is that this really smart really talented woman
00:09:22.800was rewarded for her talents and smarts and political power by being executed by having0.96
00:09:30.320this like state sanctioned misogynistic violence carried out against her and so i thought i don't1.00
00:09:35.780want to defang that monster that's the thing that makes her story resonate what if instead she could
00:09:42.160somehow come back and there are so many stories of people that come back from the dead with their
00:09:47.880heads off um like there's a whole category of these yeah they're called cephalophore stories so
00:09:52.660like gawain and the green knight is a good example and that myth kind of threads through the beheading
00:09:57.240game you know where the green knight comes to the court of king arthur and says does anybody want to
00:10:02.560take one blow at me um if you beat me you can have my magical axe but whatever blow you give
00:10:08.480to me i'll give to you a year later and gawain steps up and beheads him with one blow and thinks0.97
00:10:13.600this is great he's dead now he can't come after me but then the green knight picks up his head
00:10:17.700and just walks off and he has to go show up oh i'm thinking like is the the legend of sleepy hollow
00:10:23.580like with the absolutely yes the legend of sleepy hollow in north america is one of those stories
00:11:28.740there's that there's that and then she's also trying to survive so this is like three things
00:11:33.740all happening at once and like not your book is not a thousand pages long so like it's all
00:11:39.160very um condensed I'm just impressed with the like how you kind of braid those things together
00:11:44.680yeah thank you I think it was really important to me to have this kind of like um post-mortem
00:11:50.800no pun intended going on in the book where she was kind of thinking back because like
00:11:54.680Anne Boleyn, at least as I've created her as a character here, and as I believe she was in history, was such a strong personality that I have to believe that if she had any thoughts after her death, it would have been like, what the F just happened? How did I go from like up here to down here? And I really wanted her to be processing that and thinking through it.
00:12:14.480But, you know, there are like some historians say that like up until the moment that she was executed, she was looking for Henry to come rescue her, like looking at the looking out of the crowd, thinking that he was going to show up and call it all off.
00:12:28.560And I think that that's that's very heartbreaking. And I think she probably up until the last minute thought it wasn't going to actually happen, as I would feel if I were being brought up to the scaffold.
00:12:40.240I think anyone would feel you'd be in a great deal of denial. And so I wanted, like, after the violence of the beheading, which happens offstage in the novel, like, that's not really part of the novel directly. She wakes up afterwards. But after that, I wanted, in the calm after the storm, for her to be able to look back and think, like, what happened? And also just kind of think back on her life and the people that were important to her, like her brother George.
00:13:03.980which is parts of this book like as i said like i i don't know maybe we're similar in this way but
00:13:09.900i was like such an anne boleyn girly like in the early 2000s there's i keep thinking about
00:13:16.660because there's like the other boleyn girl the book and the movie and stuff where it's just kind
00:13:21.240of it's which really philippa gregory you know i have lots of thoughts about her work um she really
00:13:26.520got people excited about the tutors but she takes every rumor as fact like there's a scene in the
00:13:32.180movie where like natalie portman as anne boleyn is like actively goes to seduce her brother
00:13:36.420like all these things right and so in your book yeah there's no i mean there's no real historical
00:13:42.720evidence for that other than rumor like a lot of what of what we know about anne boleyn comes through
00:13:48.740um an ambassador named eustace sheffy uh who wrote all these letters oh he was can i just say0.99
00:13:54.860he's such a mess messy bitch he he's such a tattler he's like he would be like andy cohen1.00
00:14:03.000or somebody just being like oh my god you know what this girl just did like every yeah yeah1.00
00:14:07.060every rumor he worked for um he wrote worked for the holy roman emperor who was like queen
00:14:13.860catherine of aragon's relative i forget like her nephew i think so he was super biased against
00:14:19.140anne boleyn and you know like just referred to her as the concubine in his letters or the great
00:14:24.480whore like I don't know definitely like he reports back things that were happening but I think
00:14:29.820everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt you know and the idea that she like had0.97
00:14:35.400had an affair with her own brother I think it's just preposterous to me that's one of those things
00:14:40.800that's like well obviously but this is a lie like you went you went too hard on the lie that she
00:14:45.800slept with five men if you had just kept it to like she slept with one man maybe people would
00:14:51.240believe it or maybe i would believe it well exactly it's just sort of like this sort of like
00:14:55.380let's make her into like this monstrous uncontrollable nymphomaniac it's just like
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00:15:44.560may impact your investment portfolio. Listen to Fidelity Connects on Spotify today and power your
00:15:49.440next move tomorrow. The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders
00:15:57.460and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken
00:16:04.640world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow dark, the darkness
00:16:10.780always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real
00:16:18.080time. And when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules
00:16:23.620light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the
00:16:28.960characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s. And man, it is so good to be back.
00:16:34.440Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark every Thursday night at 8 p.m.
00:16:39.260eastern on youtube.com slash the glass cannon with the podcast version dropping the next day
00:16:45.100see what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark
00:16:49.220welcome to the realms of peril and glory explore the mechanically magical vistas of veil
00:17:00.960The paranormal mysteries of liminal London.
00:17:27.000I guess my next question for you is just kind of like about your research process because in your book like you put us right in like her memories of the royal court and stuff and like Anne Boleyn after her execution like so much of the records of her life were like destroyed like portraits were destroyed like no one knows what she looks like so it's kind of like so many people worked on it.
00:17:46.540but I also wanted to talk to you about your research you did like she wakes up puts her
00:17:51.320head back on and then she's like in the middle of this like poor or like working class certainly
00:17:56.680neighborhood and she's so like I'm sure there's even less known about what was it like for like
00:18:01.940a casual sex worker in Tudor England so like what how did you put together because it feels
00:18:09.380really lived in like all those scenes I'm I know that you did lots of research I'm just curious
00:18:13.580how how you went about it but I wanted to say something that just occurred to me was I don't
00:18:19.880know if you've read um Hallie Rubenhold's book The Five about the women who were murdered by Jack
00:18:24.340the Ripper if you haven't that sounds great yeah it's really good and it's a really um it talks
00:18:30.720about that because similar to Anne Boleyn like there's a certain narrative of like this this is
00:18:35.100what these women's lives were and this is why they kind of deserve to be murdered and she talks in
00:18:38.920that book right absolutely a lot about how they were it was the same thing it's just like they
00:18:42.880were not, they were doing sex work, but it was a really similar thing where it's just kind of like
00:18:46.660casually on and off when you need money sort of thing. Yeah. Which I think is very different than
00:18:52.140our concept of sex work today, um, where we, where we might think like somebody who is doing sex work
00:18:57.840is, is that is their occupation and they are doing it like all the time. Um, and, or perhaps
00:19:03.780they are being trafficked, um, which of course is terrible. So like, yeah, a very different
00:19:08.260conception of it than than we have today um and yes so like uh when i was in london i went to the
00:19:14.920clink street prison museum which is the clink is named that because it was on clink street
00:19:20.480um in southwark and that is where the phrase the clink going to the clink getting thrown in the
00:19:24.760clink comes from um and that was really helpful to just learn about how how badly prisoners were
00:19:29.840treated during that time period so like that becomes another contrast in the book because
00:19:34.580anne is reflecting on her own imprisonment in the tower of london which like her imprisonment ends
00:19:39.800with a beheading so it's not great but relatively speaking it's a pretty posh imprisonment like
00:19:45.740she's in like an apartment basically yeah she has ladies helping her though they're not most of them0.66
00:19:52.820are not people that she likes like they're kind of like spies that are sent with her to um tattle0.99
00:19:59.040back to cromwell and the king everything that she's saying and doing during this imprisonment
00:20:03.140But in contrast, Alice, who has been in the clink prison and Anne meets her just as she's exiting the clink prison after bribing the jailer to get out, has had a very like what we would today to consider to be like cruel and unusual punishment experience in the clink.
00:20:22.820The cells would flood every time the tide would come in. Inmates had to pay for their chains and their food and every little daily necessity that they would encounter when they were there.
00:20:34.140It was a very unpleasant place to be, but it was helpful to go to the Klink Prison Museum and just kind of get a glimpse at like an experience that people who were not well connected and did not have a bunch of money had if they happened to run afoul of the law or get caught.
00:20:50.520i was in um london a few years ago and i was also on a research trip and i asked my friend who's
00:20:57.980from there who's like from like working class london i'm like what are some places i can go to
00:21:01.140see like that are not just like here's a museum of tiaras like where can i see like the regular
00:21:06.580everyday people and she's like there's honestly not much like she was just like yeah the street
00:21:10.700there's some streets you can walk down that kind of look the same now as they did then
00:21:13.700but there's not yeah so the clink prison is clearly one of these places totally i mean
00:21:20.140And in Southwark, like when I went, I stayed in Southwark because I really wanted to get the feel
00:21:23.900for like, okay, what is that part of London? Like, although of course it's like extremely
00:21:27.260different now than it was nearly 500 years ago, but like by word market, which is mentioned in
00:21:33.160the novel is still a market in Southwark though. Of course, like it looks very different now
00:21:36.860than it did then. Um, and the globe is still there. And, um, but yeah, it's, it's kind of
00:21:42.380hard to find because nobody kept good records of those things, but there are like people work,
00:21:47.460historians working today um both academic historians and then and sort of like um citizen
00:21:53.400historians who are doing really interesting research into like what did tutor people eat
00:21:58.120what did everyday tutor people wear um i listened to a lot of podcasts while i was researching the
00:22:03.740novel like talking tutors and um and got a really great education that way from historians about
00:22:11.980like what was everyday life like for these people who were living there yeah I think um
00:22:19.260it it is helpful for you with this project that the tutors is one of the time periods that
00:22:24.520there's so many people interested in it so I feel like yes any of any time period in English history
00:22:30.560like this and maybe the Victorians are like the two that like there's been the most specific
00:22:35.380research into like what did they have for dinner like what were their shoes made of like this is
00:22:40.380one of those times. Absolutely. Like what did, what were the vessels that they drink liquid out
00:22:46.780of called? You know, you can find a lot of that information. What were their different layers of
00:22:51.900clothing called? I remember doing research into like, okay, what was Tudor apparel? What did like
00:22:58.140an everyday woman wear? What would a queen have worn? What are all the different layers called?1.00
00:23:04.640Did they have underpants? The answer to that is no, but they had other undergarments.
00:23:10.380Yeah, it's a lot. It was a lot of little details. And it was really important to me to get those to try as much as I could to get those things right. Because the novel has obviously has some magical realism elements going. It takes liberties with this plot of her being able to rise from the dead and sew her head back on. But I wanted as much as I could to get the historical details right here so that it was like set in a in a place that felt authentic.
00:23:34.000it absolutely does that's where that's why i want to ask you about your research just because all
00:23:38.480the i'm just like learning so much about history about clink and about southwark and all these
00:23:43.840things but also like you just said like there's a lot of discussion in the book and it doesn't
00:23:47.840overwhelm the plot at all but just now i know the names of all these different garments and
00:23:51.540the layers because anvil and except for being beheaded and it's like i can't walk around in
00:23:55.740this like blood-covered queen dress like i need right yeah because she was executed in the dress1.00
00:24:01.160that had like an ermine trim which really would have like popped out as something that would1.00
00:24:05.960distinguish her as royalty you know in the book like she walks through Southwark without disguising0.99
00:24:11.680herself in any way um and I really went back and forth on that like should she cloak her face or
00:24:16.960something but she's someone who like most people especially living in this part Southwark south of
00:24:23.240London would not have seen yeah right like everyday people were not seeing the queen um there was not
00:24:29.480television there was not social media there were not newspapers there were not even photographs
00:24:34.060during this time period so like the most likeness they might have seen of her would have been like
00:24:37.580maybe on a coin or maybe on a drawn illustration um and they would probably not have have
00:24:43.760recognized her but if she's walking around with like that you know kind of like white with the
00:24:48.340black spots or mine telltale her mind that would really make her stand out so she wants to disguise1.00
00:24:53.180herself as a commoner so she can move more fluidly through this landscape and the other thing that1.00
00:24:59.080she has to worry about is that she has, you know, like she sews her head back on and the neck wound0.94
00:25:05.300heals, but she has like very visible stitches and a big scar. And so she covers that up
00:25:11.120with a swaddling cloth that she has stuffed into her dress prior to execution that belonged to
00:25:18.260Elizabeth. And, and she wanted it to go to the grave with her so she could be close to her
00:25:22.420daughter. And she pulls it out and uses it to sew it like into a makeshift collar to cover up that0.87
00:25:28.040scar in terms of people who would recognize her though um and i want to be very careful
00:25:33.480about spoilers or anything but i will say the people who would recognize her are the people
00:25:38.060in the tower of london and you absolutely describe the tower london in such a way that i feel like
00:25:42.820you went there and you did the tour and you took i spent so much time at the tower of london and i
00:25:48.600just have to tell you like my poor sweet husband came with me on this research trip god bless him
00:25:54.180um I was like okay I'm gonna take this five-day trip to London because we have two young kids so
00:25:59.360I didn't want to leave for too long it's hard to leave young kids for a long time and I was like
00:26:03.360I would love for you to come with me but you have to know when we're there I'm going to just be
00:26:07.340hyper fixating on this stuff and so we went to the Tower of London and we got there when they
00:26:11.900opened and we stayed until they closed which I think is like I think they open at nine or ten
00:26:16.680and they close at five yeah the whole day I spent the whole day like I stayed until the very I did
00:26:21.860the Yeoman tour where the guy in the red outfit walks you around and does a
00:26:26.780colorful history. I stopped at every exhibit.
00:26:31.100I took pictures of all the signage so that I could look at it when I got back
00:26:34.600home. So I didn't have to take like, I took a lot of notes,
00:26:37.400but so I didn't have to try to copy down everything.
00:30:59.700The Beheading Game by Rebecca Lehman. Live it. Love it. It is the moment. It's everything I've
00:31:06.260ever wanted. Honestly, it's so good. Read this book. Read this book. The Beheading Game. I'm
00:31:11.920obsessed. So another book that you may also enjoy. Isn't that funny? I'm just like, read this book,
00:31:17.560you'll be obsessed. And maybe you'll like this one too. No, I know you'll like this one too.
00:31:20.920It's my book. I wrote a nonfiction book that's called Rebel of the Regency,
00:31:24.560The Scandalous Saga of Carolina Brunswick, Britain's Queen Without a Crown. It is now
00:31:28.320available in North America. And I believe when you're hearing this, it is finally, finally
00:31:32.940available in the UK. So like go to your local bookstore, get yourself a little copy of it,
00:31:37.900order it online, live it and love it and enjoy it. Maybe pair it up with a beheading game.
00:31:42.920Maybe I should write a book like The Beheading Game about what if Carolina Brunswick also wreaked0.99
00:31:47.300revenge against her shitty husband, who was also the king. You know, like Rebecca Lamer just opened0.98
00:31:52.560up a whole new avenue for me of just like amazing things I wish that happened in history that I
00:31:57.880want to read novels about. Anyway, her book is a beheading game. My book is called Rebel of the
00:32:03.080Regency. I think you'll love them both. Thank you for listening to my Oprah's Book Club discussion
00:32:10.540of two books that are really good. Anyway, next week, we're going to be back with another incredible
00:32:14.620episode of Vulgar History. I say incredible because we're talking about a story that is
00:32:19.240pretty bananas. We're getting back into a Regency era. You know, we're still going strong with that.
00:32:24.520There's still several more Regency era scandalous women to talk about.0.98
00:32:27.900And next week we're talking about a Regency era witch.
00:32:31.640And I'm going to have a very special co-host that I think you're going to be really excited to hear from.
00:32:37.140And so until next time, my friends, keep your pants on, keep your heads on, or if they come off, sew them back on, wreak some revenge, be like Anne Boleyn, and keep your pants on.
00:34:34.280Fall in love with our core cast, or be awed by our incredible guests from familiar shows like Oxventure, Three Black Halflings, and No Rolls Barred.
00:34:48.960Ignite your imagination and discover the Realms of Peril and Glory today.
00:34:54.460Go to RealmsPod.com or search Realms of Peril and Glory wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:35:04.280The world of Sonic the Hedgehog has been thrust into a not-so-dark, not-so-stormy, hard-boiled detective story