00:00:00.000So welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast. My name is Anne Foster
00:00:14.680and all season long we've been talking about the Regency era. We've been mostly talking about
00:00:19.180England in the early 1800s. It's a time period that's best known now, I think, still for the
00:00:26.460works of Jane Austen. That's when she was living. That's when she was writing. And today I'm going
00:00:30.440to talk about the legacy of Jane Austen and why we still find her book so captivating today. And
00:00:36.320I'm joined by a big Jane Austen fan. It's author June Herr. Welcome, June. Thank you so much for
00:00:44.420having me here. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. First of all, I mean,
00:00:50.180the timing of this is because your new book is just coming out. When this episode comes out,
00:00:55.840like it just came out yesterday it's out this week behind five willows which is uh what's
00:01:01.320described in your website as a warm and romantic homage to Jane Austen set in historical Korea so
00:01:08.000the Jane Austen vibes are strong in this book but could you explain how you first encountered Jane
00:01:13.080Austen and what she means to you so when I was 13 I was struggling in English class not because I
00:01:21.940was like new to Canada or anything I arrived in Canada when I was in kindergarten by that time I
00:01:27.340was in Canada for a while I just I just thought books were really boring and so books were boring
00:01:33.240I thought writing was boring and so I struggled and my grades weren't great and so my dad started
00:01:38.260to get really concerned and he was like June like if you fell in love with books I think you'd do
00:01:45.180really good in English class and he just my dad just loves books in general and so every now and
00:01:51.000then he would buy me a book or he'd borrow a book from me and bring it home. And nothing would
00:01:57.540really spark my interest. And then one day he brought home Pride and Prejudice. And this kind
00:02:03.540of coincided with my dad also watching the black and white version of Pride and Prejudice. I forget
00:02:10.280which adaptation that was, but it was like 19 something. I like 19 foods-ish one, the one
00:02:16.640Laurence Olivier? Yes. I watched it and I just like, I don't know, it just like rewired my brain. And when I began reading Pride and Prejudice, like finally, I finally understood what the joy of reading meant.
00:02:36.160I felt like I was being swept away into another country, another era.
00:02:40.900And it was my first encounter with enemies to lovers as well.
00:02:45.360Not that Darcy and Elizabeth are like, you know, extreme enemies to lives,
00:02:50.880but I feel like a lot of that trope kind of traces back to our love of Darcy and Elizabeth.
00:02:58.860And so, yeah, I just fell in love with Pride and Prejudice.
00:03:01.640And then from there, I began to borrow all the VHS adaptation of Pride and Prejudice, the 1995 adaptation.
00:03:10.640And that's when I just became obsessed.
00:03:13.780This is like the Colin Firth adaptation.
00:07:05.320existed even before the internet era it's just us wanting to like live in that world as long as we
00:07:12.520can and I think Jane Austen I mean goodness knows so I traveled to um to London a few months ago and
00:07:20.440I went to Bath where there's the Jane Austen Center which I don't know if you've been there
00:07:24.320but it's like I've been there I went there last last year okay yeah did you do the whole experience
00:07:29.760You can like put on like a Regency era outfit around. Yeah, no, exactly. Jane Austen, like his such devoted passion, like so many people have a similar story to you, I think, where it's like they read the book and they're like, I want to live in this world. I want to expand this world, like Colin Firth poster on my wall, like something about these books.
00:07:49.280And I think my theory, having done this series about the Regency era and just thinking like
00:07:55.960it's such a specific brief time in history, like English history for like a decade, but
00:23:14.120with the podcast version dropping the next day.
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00:23:54.300I'm Mandy. And I'm Melissa. And this is Moms and Mysteries. We're two Florida moms obsessed
00:24:01.760with true crime. From infamous cases like Ellen Greenberg to shocking Florida stories like the
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00:24:28.120break down reality TV, celebrity drama, and the stories everyone's texting about. We recap the
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00:24:46.920and Chantal. Let's get into it. And we're back. And I love that it's sort of like, it's still0.99
00:24:54.900talking about historical Korea. So it's still very much like a new and her book of people like
00:24:59.720your other books. They're like this one too. There's just not dead bodies this time. And so
00:25:04.320making, we were talking a bit about this before we started recording. And I think that it's so
00:25:09.660interesting to take like this Regency era novel that is about as presented in the novel, a culture
00:25:15.900with like he said all these rules and expectations and men and women have and the expectations of
00:25:21.120getting married and then putting it into a context which is historical korea the joseon era where
00:25:29.540actually like the rules were even more strict like and they actually were followed in a way
00:25:35.060we've talked about on my podcast in the regency episodes like there were there were these rules
00:25:38.940in the regency era but like so many people had mistresses and illegitimate children and like
00:25:45.240It wasn't as strictly enforced as some people might imagine, but the era you're talking about, which is like 1793, Joseon era, it's like these rules are like so strict.
00:25:56.300Can you explain kind of what was happening there at that time?
00:26:02.040So during this period of time, Confucianism had a strong influence over the Joseon dynasty.
00:26:11.300it was a basically a state belief that was enforced and during this time women were seen
00:26:19.620as yeah like the idea of it's basically purity culture like women were expected to stay chaste
00:26:30.900to stay pure and they were expected to become obedient mothers and there's like this uh concept
00:26:40.180that a woman is raised to become a mother, first a good daughter to their father, and then a good
00:26:47.020wife to their husband. And then when their husband passes away, basically a good mother to the son.
00:26:53.500And so it's this idea of obedience. And yeah, there was a lot of expectations on women back
00:27:00.600then. And it's interesting because the expectations were a bit different on men.
00:27:05.460the idea that they were still expected to be respectable but they actually had mistresses too
00:27:12.280because um the rich nobles they would have concubines and illegitimate children but I think0.57
00:27:19.880women compared to the regency era like I'm even in the regency era like respectable women there0.99
00:27:25.800was a lot of expectation placed on them but women in chosen era it almost felt like how women were
00:27:32.460seen in the Victorian era, you know, the concept of the angel in the house, they were chosen Korean
00:27:37.900women were basically expected to be angels. And this was more for upper class women. I feel like0.99
00:27:43.960expectations are a bit, were a bit lower for lower class, like commoners, but for the aristocrats,
00:27:53.000there was high expectations for women. You could see that expectation in the structure of houses.0.87
00:27:58.440the houses would have something called this outer residence for men and then women would be confined
00:28:05.320within the inner residence and that the door the gate into the women's quarter would always be0.81
00:28:12.180locked at night so women weren't allowed to like roam freely and if they did leave the house they
00:28:17.900were expected to be like cover themselves or travel by palanquin um so yeah it's this idea
00:28:24.400that they're not supposed to be quote-unquote like sullied their reputation was expected to
00:28:33.000stay pristine and the contrast I feel like with the regency era and the Joseon dynasty is if a
00:28:40.080woman is ruined in regency England it's almost like she was kind of outcasted I'm sure there
00:28:46.580are more severe cases but in the case of Joseon dynasty Korea there were a lot of cases of women
00:28:53.120just being killed, honor killing, basically. So the stakes are a bit more higher in the Chosun
00:28:58.700period, and specifically the latter half of the Chosun dynasty, so the 19th century around then.
00:29:06.040Yeah, women were treated a bit more freely earlier on in the dynasty, as opposed to later on in the
00:29:13.380dynasty. And there's two really interesting, I don't know if there are laws or edicts that
00:29:20.840are very important in your book to set up the premise of it and one of them is this thing this
00:29:25.920spinster law where all unmarried women had to get married which is different from in Pride and
00:29:33.960Prejudice it's like oh I have five daughters and I find husbands and but in this it's like you have0.70
00:29:40.240to so your main character she's an older sister who is not married and I think she's 24 or and
00:29:46.220but she's considered a spinster and there's this law like she has so there's different added
00:29:51.140pressure on this not just like culturally i hope you get married but this is like you have to it's
00:29:56.880a law can you explain what that law was yes so this law was enforced to not all throughout the
00:30:05.320period it only happened when there were like natural disasters like droughts so there was this
00:30:12.060Confucian belief that when some like disasters occur in nature it is a reflection that the king
00:30:21.080isn't doing his job and that the people people are angry and somehow they connected the drought in
00:30:27.740the 1790s to spinsters not getting married and that they were angry about it and so the king
00:30:35.900felt like it the government basically felt like it was their duty to get the spinsters married and if
00:30:41.200they got married off then the drought would end that was the real belief back then and so there
00:30:47.980are i found like articles after articles um detailing how this policy was enforced so
00:30:56.080in seoul back then it was called hanyang so this is the capital of korea right now
00:31:03.080and basically in the capital they rounded up around 281 spinsters and there was and so initially
00:31:13.180the government officials didn't like take it that seriously they were like trying to match make and
00:31:18.160if there were a few people who didn't get married they're like yeah like whatever but then the king
00:31:23.320got so angry he's like he just fired them and he's like do better and so in the end everyone
00:31:30.620got married. I don't know how the 281, it's like an odd number, but yeah, everyone got married
00:31:36.720off in the end. And then the other edict or law or rule that's happening at the same time that
00:31:43.960really spearheads the premise of your book and the action of it is the rule about not having
00:31:49.420fiction novels. So what's that about? So that is called, the modern term for that policy
00:31:58.660is called Munche Banjang. And it's a very complicated policy, but I'll simplify it.
00:32:06.820But basically, King Jongjo had a distaste for novels for various reasons. But basically,
00:32:13.160the king believed that writing is a reflection of our culture. And the more, you know,
00:32:20.180quote unquote, trashy a writing gets, it's a reflection that society is deteriorating.
00:32:25.240And so he felt like in order to create an upstanding society, you need writing that is very moral and very in line with the Confucian classics.
00:32:36.780And so during this time, people were really getting into novels.
00:32:41.940And King Cheong-joo actually read these novels and he was just like really scandalized by them.
00:32:46.740And so he banned writing, fiction writing, especially because he found that fiction, it's really tricky to monitor what kind of ideas are being spread when it comes to fiction.
00:33:04.240And during this time, Catholicism was becoming a big problem in Chosin society.
00:33:11.360And the king was worried that, you know, you might find like writers might kind of sneak Catholic ideas into novels and hide it in fiction.
00:33:19.980So he was trying to basically control what kind of ideas were spreading in the country.
00:33:27.460And so that is one of the many reasons why novels were and fiction writing were banned.
00:33:33.380And I found it really interesting because I feel like it's really relevant to today, not only because of book banning, but you see the discourse around romance novels.
00:33:44.960Like people will be like, oh, it's, you know, it's so trashy or like romanticism, so trashy.
00:33:50.140And basically it's like censoring that those kind of conversations are like censoring, like, what do you think make a good book?
00:33:57.360and so I feel like it's been this kind of discourse has been going on for ages like
00:34:06.180and globally trying to censor basically monitor what women read and what they enjoy
00:34:11.720so I found that really interesting. I found it this is an era that I didn't know anything about
00:34:18.440and these rules are so they're so specific and interesting and then it sets up the world for
00:34:25.460your characters where they're like I'm sure in actual historical cultures fiction was banned
00:34:33.400but people still found a way to read it and to write it so the premise of your book has this
00:34:39.280kind of there's like a bookstore but then there's a secret back part of the bookstore where there's
00:34:43.620kind of these other books but only trusted customers can go there and so can you explain
00:34:48.380about the role of the transcriptionist in this context so during this time the printing press
00:34:55.840was monopolized by the government so the common people didn't have a printing press so they would
00:35:01.360basically have to transcribe the books by hand and so yeah it was like that was the only way to
00:35:09.540have extra copies of a book was by transcribing and so you have a character in your book who
00:35:16.660Well, then it also becomes a thing about whose handwriting is this.
00:35:20.300And when they're trying to figure out who's writing these novels.
00:35:22.780So with all of that set up, can you explain who the main characters, Lizzie and Darcy, in your book are?
00:35:30.980So the main character for Lizzie is Heowen, and she is a transcriber of forbidden books.
00:35:38.540And basically, back then, transcribing books, that's a way to make money.
00:35:43.100And so because her family isn't so well off, she was like, she's like, you know, it's, it's a great way to make extra income by transcribing. And then her favorite, one of her favorite authors is his pseudonym is Black Lotus, because back then, almost all authors wrote under pseudonyms.
00:36:01.940And Black Lotus later on turns out to be Darcy,
00:36:06.680the Korean Darcy, and his name is Seo Joon.
00:36:09.980And he is a writer of these adventure novels,
00:40:23.540Like, she's not like the sister in my book.
00:40:27.240She's not allowed to stay in the home of like a guy who's not related to her.
00:40:33.480And so I had to like, kind of find a work around it where it's, it's still a little bit scandalous, but not like reputation ruining. So yeah, I had to, I had to figure it was a lot of jumping hoops. Yeah.
00:40:49.800yeah and this is what your book just made me think about and realize like how there were so
00:40:57.360many strict rules in regency era london for like the high society people obviously but there's also
00:41:02.900a lot of flexibility in gray area and that like if you're wealthy enough and if you have the right
00:41:08.060friends they can kind of be like oh yeah but it's fine yeah versus like in the context of like 1793
00:41:14.580chosan dynasty it's like these are the rules and they have to be followed so i thought it was
00:41:18.940interesting like you're saying it just kind of raises the stakes where it's like i'm not giving
00:41:23.900any suppose for your book but you're like the if lydia bennett runs away and pride and prejudice
00:41:28.440it's like oh no our family is ruined but no one's gonna be killed yeah like yeah and like this is
00:41:35.320bad and like maybe you're gonna like lose money and you know you won't get as evidentious marriages
00:41:39.280and that's terrible but like in your book it's like if the lydia equivalent like if that happened
00:41:43.060is like oh now like we're disgraced forever our lineage is destroyed like someone's going to be
00:41:48.940executed like the stakes are just higher because the rules are taken more seriously and that's why
00:41:55.040i had fun writing exactly exactly exactly and that's what i feel like but it is still fun i
00:42:01.280want people to know that like it's these are the rules but there's i love everything in the book
00:42:05.860that's about um being a reader and being a writer and the importance of novels like i feel like
00:42:10.980when you were talking about when you were younger and you're like I just had to write this fan
00:42:14.500fiction like the writer character in your book says something similar where it's just like I'm
00:42:18.600just riding this wave of creativity like I can't stop it like it's such this book is such a good
00:42:24.940fun like ode to just people who love reading and people who love writing I think it really
00:42:30.520hits on those points too yeah I I just wanted to like not just yeah because I think Pride and
00:42:39.000Prejudice wasn't just a book that I loved. It was the book that introduced me to the love of reading
00:42:46.760and writing. And so I think I wanted to capture all of that. And so I ended up with a writer and
00:42:52.380a transcriber and a homage to Pride and Prejudice. And it's such a fun book, everybody. Just so you
00:42:59.440know, I was telling June before we started recording, I was reading it yesterday before
00:43:03.000we recorded this because I wanted to and because I wanted to be ready. And I was just like, I was
00:43:08.140so swept up in it. Like you're describing the Jane Austen book. I was just like, I was in this
00:43:12.800world. I'm just like, I didn't know any of this, these rules or this culture, this society, but
00:43:16.720I'm just like, what's going to happen? Are they going to figure this out? Are they going to get
00:43:20.320together? Like the stakes are right. I love that you felt that even though you knew it's like
00:43:25.200almost, uh, it's a loose retelling of Pride and Prejudice. And yet you felt that I, that,
00:43:29.640that makes me very happy to hear. I'm like, there's no way, there's no way around these
00:43:33.400insurmountable obstacles there's no way but reader like listeners there it's they figure it out
00:43:39.940it is we're saying the comfort you find in jane austen like yes that's part of it so behind five
00:43:46.240willows it's out this week everywhere and you've got so many events coming up how can people
00:43:52.100keep up with you and just where are you going to be and what are you going to be doing
00:43:56.600so i'll be doing a few events mostly in ontario canada and if you follow me on
00:44:04.680june h writes on instagram you'll see all the news and updates there fantastic and i hope that
00:44:12.300i hope it's such a fun i think this will be a fun book for you to be doing events about because it's
00:44:17.180the book is just an homage to reading and the love of reading and i think it'll be just really
00:44:21.680i feel like people be so excited to to share the joy of this book um thank you so much for
00:44:28.100joining me for this conversation so junho's book is out now everywhere um behind five willows like
00:44:35.960get into it and i feel like this would be a great k-drama adaptation if any producers are out there
00:44:42.780listening like there's a lot of very like i can picture the cinema the cinema of some of these
00:44:49.340scenes, I think would be really beautiful. Thank you so much for joining me, June.
00:44:53.100Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure talking with you.
00:45:01.560So I can't recommend enough to read June Hur's new book, Behind Five Willows. And once you've
00:45:06.180read that, like honestly, read her previous books. It's so interesting. The time periods
00:45:11.280that she finds are so specific in Joseon history and just kind of the, who was the emperor and what
00:45:17.020or the laws, and what was happening. I've learned so much about Korean history from reading her
00:45:21.820historical novels. And honestly, the romance plot lines in her previous books are pretty good.
00:45:29.720This one, Behind Five Willows, if you're into yearning, watch out. So good. Yeah,
00:45:35.860keep an eye out for her if you're in Toronto or area for some of her events that she has coming up.
00:45:41.160And I also wrote a book. It's called Rebel of the Regency, The Scandalous Saga of Carolina
00:45:45.920brunswick britain's queen without a crown it is now officially available in north america and also
00:45:51.940in europe it took a minute for it to arrive in europe but it should be there in the uk
00:45:57.320specifically i know you guys have been waiting ireland check out like go to your local bookstore
00:46:03.180hopefully it's there if it's there send me a picture please because i want to see it
00:46:06.520if you see my book there in the store send a picture to me um dm me at my instagram
00:46:11.520at Vulgar History Pod. And I'm also running a fundraiser right now. So we were talking about
00:46:16.900the Regency era and how it was a more diverse and interesting time period than one might imagine
00:46:23.740from how it's often romanticized today. And one of the ways that it was a diverse and more
00:46:29.800interesting time period is there was a lot of queer people in the Regency era, as we've talked
00:46:33.600about throughout this series here on Vulgar History. And so to celebrate the various queer
00:46:39.120figures who we've talked about who are around in the regency era um i've got a fundraiser going
00:46:45.360right now for the trevor project which is a wonderful american organization that provides
00:46:51.06024 7 it's a suicide help hotline for lgbt people especially youth and so this money goes to support
00:46:59.280all the important work that they do um and if you want to support my fundraiser it's i have this
00:47:05.120t-shirt that we're selling so it's a beautiful artwork designed by front of the podcast jan0.80
00:47:09.840yupiter featuring all the queer coded people from vulgar history this season so we're talking0.86
00:47:14.680about the chevalier day on mary shelley mary wilson craft regina duchess of devonshire0.87
00:47:19.200ann lister is there uh the ladies of helen goughlin and their cat sappho are all featured
00:47:25.300in this beautiful design that's called the regency queera because regency era was queer af and
00:47:58.080This is like the Regency era has been quite a time for us all.
00:48:02.300we're moving into sort of a between the seasons time i've got so many interesting episodes coming
00:48:07.920up for you with some guests you're going to be really excited about and to hear from and that's
00:48:13.300going to be what next week's episode is when you see who this guest is you're going to lose your
00:48:17.360minds it's a really really really it's a hero of mine and i'm really excited to have her on the
00:48:23.960show that's coming up next week and until i'm ready to let you know about what the next season's
00:48:29.320theme is. We're just sitting here in this beautiful moment. Thanks for joining me on this Regency Era
00:48:33.740Journée. And until next time, keep your pants on and your tits out.1.00
00:48:39.840Vulgar History is researched, scripted, and hosted by Anne Foster. Editor is Christina Lumagi. Theme0.99
00:48:45.560music is by The Severn Duo. Regency Era artwork by Karen Moynihan. Social media videos by Magdalena
00:48:51.900Denson. Transcripts of this podcast are available at vulgarhistory.com by Aveline Malek. You can get
00:48:57.780Early ad-free episodes of Vulgar History by becoming a paid member of our Patreon at patreon.com slash annfosterwriter.
00:49:04.460Vulgar History merchandise is available at vulgarhistory.com slash store for Americans and at vulgarhistory.redbubble.com for everyone else.
00:49:13.400Follow us on social media at vulgarhistorypod.
00:49:15.920Get in touch with me at vulgarhistorypod at gmail.com.
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