00:03:33.900It's a similar thing. I'll tell you, I've just started reading some stuff about like the American Revolution era. And I'm just like, thank you, because you've got like Theodosia and Hercules and just like everyone's got like a great name and I can tell them apart. And I appreciate that. Thank you, American history.
00:04:19.120So you're here to help with that, to right that wrong. But also, also, and this is what you and I talk about all the time, you know, those reconstructions of like, here's what this person really looked like. And here's what this. And there was all of that discourse when the, um, the Netflix show about Cleopatra presenting her as a black woman came out. And so I really want to talk about that and what did she look like and that sort of stuff as well.
00:04:43.100Because, you know, I always have ideas.
00:04:45.300exactly exactly i think we were messaging a lot during that era but yeah that's the other thing
00:04:53.080with my podcast i'm trying to be like have themes and like stick to it but i'm just like what about
00:04:57.900this and i suddenly start reading about some i told him doing the american revolution right now
00:05:02.280but i'm just like oh but what about if i read about this like biblical era like africa anyway
00:05:07.360so i'm always reading about different things as my attention gets waivers and i was reading about
00:05:11.680someone else i won't say who because i haven't done the episode yet but it was the it was a
00:05:15.900they really explained how in like the bc era in the like zero and like before then and even after
00:05:26.000then it wasn't so much about like there wasn't a race right there wasn't that wasn't a thing it
00:05:30.280was more like are you from here or are you from there it's like what country are you from like
00:05:34.760where are your people it's not about so to go back and to retroactively say like well
00:05:39.480this person was a black person or whatever it's like or even a white person it's like no because
00:05:45.180they didn't think like that they just thought like are you a royal are you important or are you like
00:05:50.760a peasant in the fields and what are you from rome or like that was it they weren't there wasn't the
00:05:57.480other thing that was the race so already right away to look at cleopatra through this lens is
00:06:02.620like okay okay this is challenging and it's it's interesting you bring that up because if you think
00:06:07.840about historians from Greece, from Rome, they were very detailed in how they recorded things.
00:06:15.900Granted, we all know they wrote the history the way they wanted it to be remembered,
00:06:20.500but they did pay attention to details. And no one that I know of ever talked about
00:06:28.740the hue of her skin. And if that was really important to them, they would have, because,
00:06:35.440I mean, they always wanted to go along the lines of, oh, she was this, she was that, she was something else.
00:06:39.620If they really had an issue with the color of a person's skin, they would have used that to back their ideas of, oh, she was this, she was that, she was something else.
00:06:49.300Because we all know that certain hues are viewed differently.
00:06:54.040And so if they, I'm not saying she didn't have any pigment, because let's be honest.
00:06:59.280um every every documentary you read even your previous podcast you talked about how it was
00:07:07.040likely that um there was some actual egyptian dna mixed up in there and to think that there wasn't
00:07:14.160you're just being naive that that's just that's not how it worked you know the royals did who
00:07:20.800they wanted and there was going to be some egyptian women in there somewhere so it's
00:07:26.080possibility she did have some Egyptian DNA. But just looking at the region that she lived in
00:07:32.040alone, she's not going to be pale. She's underneath that blistering Egyptian sun all the time. Now
00:07:41.520granted, she's not working in fields, so she wouldn't be as dark as someone like that, just1.00
00:07:45.380like American slavery. If you worked in the house, you were going to be lighter than someone that1.00
00:07:50.280worked in the field. She would be a little lighter than someone that was constantly out in the sun,0.63
00:07:54.960But she still lived in a region where she would have a little bit darker skin tone, not maybe as dark as even me.
00:08:01.780And I'm not really that dark. But, you know, she she wouldn't have been like.
00:08:06.820They wouldn't have never looked at her and thought, oh, she's a Nubian.0.91
00:08:09.540You could definitely tell she was Egyptian to a certain point, but she's not going to have pale skin, but she's not going to have dark skin.
00:08:16.220Either way, if it was important to anyone, they would have mentioned it.
00:08:20.460Caesar probably would have looked at her differently.
00:08:24.020Antony probably would have looked at her differently.
00:08:25.580Octavian absolutely would have used that to his advantage.
00:12:51.300Plus, like you said, a lot of times people look at that more as a Middle East thing. And another thing that you got to kind of take into consideration, too, is Egypt was conquered by a number of people.
00:13:03.080Yes. And ruled by said people for a number of years at each time.
00:13:10.160Well, again, just like saying that there there's you'd have to be naive to think there wasn't some sort of Egyptian DNA in Cleopatra.0.69
00:13:18.840You'd have to be naive to think that there wasn't some cross mixing while they were or being occupied by whoever it was that came after them.0.92
00:13:28.360And typically, with the exception of when the Nubians took over, everyone that came and occupied them was a little bit lighter than they were.0.98
00:13:37.480So you're going to get that lightening of the skin.0.94
00:13:40.820So I think that has something to do, just personal theory, I think that has something to do with a little bit lighter tone in the Egyptian race because that one might have got watered down a little bit during some of these occupations.0.85
00:13:55.100Yeah. So Egypt, even today, is kind of almost looked at as its own entity. They really considered themselves that way back then. It's a fact. Ancient Egypt really surely believed that they were above everyone else around them.
00:14:15.880And it's not just Egypt that thought that about themselves. Rome thought that about themselves. Greece thought that about themselves. So whoever has a larger populace is going to automatically think we're gods on earth.
00:14:28.260So, over the years, I think people have started, kind of felt like they were looking at Egypt as really not necessarily being African, not necessarily being Middle Eastern, it's just Egypt. It's just Egypt.
00:14:45.720And so I think that contributed to a lot of the discourse that happened when that show came out of them.0.71
00:14:54.080And the young lady they used for Cleopatra wasn't even that dark.
00:14:58.380She's a little darker than me, but not really by much.
00:15:02.680So they really didn't use, I mean, they could have had some, they could have used Viola Davis.
00:15:08.800Then people would have really had an issue with that.0.91
00:15:11.940But the young lady they used wasn't even that dark.1.00
00:15:14.600But still, it turned into the way we view skin color, that's a Black woman. And that wasn't acceptable because it has always been thought that Cleopatra, being of Macedonian descent, would just automatically have no pigment.0.95
00:15:34.420I honestly don't really have I can't say that I believe she was black I can't say I believe she0.95
00:15:42.340was just white I I just think that she had the skin tone of the typical person that lived in0.85
00:15:50.740Egypt at that time just unless you're just full full blood Egyptian you're going to be a little0.91
00:15:56.280darker but I think she just had the skin tone of people at that time which is why again beside the0.69
00:16:02.900fact that they didn't really view skin tone as that important but i just think that's why they
00:16:07.200didn't say anything about it i think that's why they just didn't use it to try to push any other
00:16:12.380narrative because she just kind of blended in i think well and then i think it's so interesting
00:16:17.880i think when i did this episode i sent you the link to the one about cleopatra's daughter
00:16:22.300cleopatra selene and how she like she was taken in by rome and then she was married to like a
00:16:28.580nubian prince and then they went to they went back to africa and like they clearly had children
00:16:35.160like those would be mixed race children you know like that's technically yeah yeah like in terms0.94
00:16:40.700of skin tone she probably but um um little cleo would have been pretty light absolutely she probably1.00
00:16:48.520would not have had any sort of african features whatsoever um considering you know cleopatra1.00
00:16:55.000probably didn't have a whole lot and obviously Anthony wouldn't have any so Selene would have1.00
00:17:01.140would have just appeared to be I think Roman I think she just she just would have I mean if she0.53
00:17:06.660was walking in the streets of Rome she would have blended in perfectly I think that was the story
00:17:12.240where um I found that's where it sort of cemented for me the fact that it was all about nationality
00:17:18.240versus like skin tone or race like the fact that she was from Egypt and she was kind of looked down
00:17:23.280upon because of her like cultural beliefs and stuff so then she kind of suppressed those
00:17:27.560until she was able to come back to Egypt and so like to her being Egyptian wasn't about what she
00:17:32.740looked like it was about architecture it was about just like the way that the city so and the fact
00:17:39.200that the I forget which emperor was at that point Augustus I guess because he was there forever
00:17:43.840who took in like this Nubian captive prince and then was like okay you're Roman now and everyone's
00:17:48.560like okay he's Roman now and like and he was like a dark-skinned person and it's like yeah he's Roman
00:17:52.160Like that was just that narrative kind of showed me like, OK, that this was not it was about where were you from?
00:17:58.740What are your cultural beliefs? Not about what's your skin tone?
00:18:02.240It's all about culture, girl. All about culture. And so that's the thing.
00:18:05.420I think that's where as society started, I hate to even use the word progress because I don't think society has progressed.
00:18:13.380But just as the years went on, it stopped being about culture.
00:18:16.920Um, and I think that happened when, um, more and more people became ballsy and trying to move in
00:18:25.180to conquer other areas. Um, you know, look at, um, the Norse people, they, they went, they went0.99
00:18:34.060and tried to conquer France. They, I mean, they did a whole lot of things. See, I told you, I know
00:18:37.780a little bit or a lot. I think they went in and obviously they're going to bring their culture
00:18:44.200with them. So when it comes time to people rising back up or after being oppressed for a while,
00:18:51.160cultures probably start to blend. And that's why you don't have, you know, places like China and0.62
00:18:58.720Japan, they have very deep culture that goes back centuries. So because they weren't conquered like
00:19:06.200that, they weren't forced to assimilate to any other culture. I think that's why culture has
00:19:13.480stopped being so important to a lot of people is because there's just been so much intermingling
00:19:20.660of cultures. How can you really say this specifically is my culture? Because I'm a
00:19:28.520Black American and a mixed race Black American at that. So there are a number of people that are
00:19:35.740African from whatever country within that continent that would not look at me as having
00:19:43.180any kind of claim towards African culture, because they don't view me as African in any way.
00:19:51.180I'm a mixed race, Black American. That's it. They're not claiming me. So for me to say, oh,
00:19:59.740it's culture. What culture am I claiming? I mean, especially being of mixed race,
00:20:05.180what culture am I claiming? And I think that happened to a lot of areas when they started
00:20:09.760getting conquered is culture just kind of faded. And so it's interesting that Selene wanted to hold
00:20:17.580on to that because the culture is what worked against her mother. The culture is what she1.00
00:20:24.300would have been basically harassed for growing up. And the culture is also something that she
00:20:31.280hadn't been a part of in how many years? Because she was younger when she was taken from Egypt
00:21:35.040which just really shows that it's it's the sort of people in history where it's like, yeah,
00:21:39.500we don't know a lot of details, but we know that she was like queen of this place for like
00:21:42.460decades and decades. So clearly she was good. She's good enough that the Romans weren't like,
00:21:48.020look at this mess, like Cleopatra, just like her mother or whatever. Like,1.00
00:21:52.300so that's so intriguing. And they would have, they would have done that quickly if she tried to
00:21:58.580rise up in any way. Um, and I remember on your previous podcast, you mentioned Zenobia that0.80
00:22:07.140she wrecked shop with, with those Romans and it's, there's not a whole lot written about her.
00:22:14.780And I, we all know how back in the day, um, if something happened in, in, in ancient Egypt and0.94
00:22:22.380they didn't like you they would literally chisel you off the walls so i mean like literally chisel0.75
00:22:29.660you off a wall and so i think that what happened with xenobia and probably even selene is things
00:22:36.120that didn't look favorable for the roman empire were destroyed because i mean let's be honest it
00:22:42.440was all written on scrolls and or able to be chiseled away yeah it wasn't the internet back
00:22:49.740then where once it's on the internet, it's there forever. So it's really easy to erase someone or
00:22:54.940something that they did from history. And I think that happened with those two young ladies.
00:23:00.380And that's where someone like, why do you think Cleopatra's story, like the main Cleopatra,
00:23:07.640who I was even surprised. I'm like, wait, Cleopatra the seventh or whatever. I'm like,
00:23:11.780there was other Cleopatras. Anyway, why do you think she, why her story continues and has
00:23:18.140always been so famous when she like is it like the Romans couldn't erase what she did because it was
00:23:25.060so impactful because you'd think they would that would be the first name they'd want to chisel out0.71
00:23:30.160like this woman who like seduced two of our emperors and like raised an army against us1.00
00:23:35.380yet we know about her and we still care about her like why do you why do you think that is
00:23:40.300So let's go back in time to the arrogance of men. I read a story once about a very young Caesar. I want to say he was maybe in his 20s at the time. So he was kind of up and coming in the ranks where he was captured by some pirates.
00:23:57.400and the entire time that he was um captured by them he tormented them basically um treated them
00:24:05.120like he had captured them it was only a matter of time before he got out of there and of course
00:24:10.420you know they they demanded a ransom for him so and the i remember reading that um the the ransom0.97
00:24:17.140that they were going to demand he was like that's that's some bullshit that's way too low i'm worth0.86
00:24:21.660more than that demand this amount and then they sent the people back to rome to demand the amount0.97
00:24:27.240that Caesar felt he was actually worth. And the whole time he was with them, he observed them,
00:24:34.080he treated them like they were his subordinates, so on and so forth, and ransom was paid, he was
00:24:39.600released, he went back to Rome, he gathered up an army and a navy, he went back, he captured them,
00:24:47.260brought them back to Rome, paraded them around, then crucified them all. This man's level of
00:24:53.500Arrogance had no limit. He wasn't even popular at that time. Not too many people even knew who he
00:24:59.580was, yet this is how he was conducting himself. So let's look at Octavian now. He grew up around
00:25:07.000that arrogance. He grew up around this man who basically was larger than life in the Roman
00:25:13.960society. He's the one that crossed the Rubicon. I mean, you name it, the man had balls the size0.53
00:25:21.600of god only knows what he he felt that he could get away with anything octavian grew up seeing0.97
00:25:27.240that octavian grew up thinking that about himself because he was part of the julian line and the
00:25:32.080julian line thought that they were straight from the right hand of god anyways so you've got two0.71
00:25:39.120men that are considered to be the end all be all of the ultimate roman male they both and then of0.74
00:25:47.520Of course, you know, you got sexy ass Mark Antony in there.0.93
00:25:50.740I would really like to see what he actually looked like.0.95
00:25:52.640If I go back in time, I want to see if he was really as hot as they thought they were.
00:26:11.420So you've got all these men that are idolized by all the people in Rome that dealt with this one individual woman. How does she not become a big part of what they write about? Because you've got all these men that are considered to be the ultimate man's man dealing with this woman.
00:26:30.280this woman has to be talked about because even if they thought that she was a witch or she was
00:26:38.540using potions, whatever it is they thought about her, they deep down still had to respect the fact
00:26:45.520that there's something about this woman that cannot be denied. And like you said, you also
00:26:52.480have to include her because she was a huge part of a whole pivot in Roman society. So
00:27:01.180there's the whole point in time where they were withholding the grain. So Rome was basically
00:27:08.260starving because Cleopatra and Antony were holding back the grain shipments. So just her
00:27:15.300existence had such a huge impact on the Roman society. There's no way that she couldn't be
00:27:21.000considered important to their overall history there was just no way to ignore her you can try
00:27:28.000to erase whatever you want but this woman was larger in life whether they wanted to admit it1.00
00:27:32.560or not and so fine we can't get rid of the bitch let's just write her the way we want her to be1.00
00:27:37.500kind of thing i think yeah but then what's funny about that is they're like this bitch and they're0.99
00:27:43.120talking about her and i think from a pretty early point people are like oh my god she sounds amazing0.90
00:28:15.720because i study nefertiti a lot and um i say the name nefertiti either they have no idea who she is
00:28:24.160or they only know oh isn't that that one statue oh my god it's not a statue it's a bust but do
00:28:30.620you even know where it is yeah no okay so there are a lot of of quote-unquote popular women but
00:28:40.200she is the one that has stood the test of time. And I think that's just because she is the one1.00
00:28:48.500the Romans wrote about the most. And I think that she just really gave them no other choice but to
00:28:53.160write about her. They wrote about her in the way that they wanted to, but they still wrote about
00:28:56.880her. And we all know, I believe back then, the language would have been Coptic in Egypt.
00:29:06.040not a whole lot of people knew that language and it is really very scarcely used today um but latin
00:29:15.400is what um rome used we can still speak latin we can read latin so we can read everything understand
00:29:22.800everything that they talked about there might be some hieroglyphs somewhere that talk about
00:29:27.220cleopatra because i know um i think i even the red or heard something that the egyptians didn't
00:29:33.060really write about her. I think that there probably are some hieroglyphs somewhere that
00:29:38.340exist somewhere because they wouldn't just go just not write about her at all. I mean, she was
00:29:45.000pharaoh. There's just no way you don't write about this woman. I just either they don't understand
00:29:51.300today's researchers don't understand what they're reading or they just haven't found it yet.
00:29:56.260But I do think there is, again, personal theory, I do think there are some writings about her by the Egyptians, or maybe they were all in the library that burnt down, which I think was purposely burnt down.
00:31:04.460And so I think that she was probably just a very average looking young lady because she was so well read.0.98
00:31:14.900You know, she could speak multiple languages.0.68
00:31:16.460I have no doubt she could write in them as well. She understood politics better than what they
00:31:23.660thought women should back then. She understood strategy. I would never say that I thought it0.99
00:31:29.620was her looks that got her where she got to. It was her mind and her charisma, like you mentioned.0.50
00:31:37.100I really truly believe that she, I won't say she learned how to play the game. I want to say she
00:31:43.820created a whole new section of the game i love that i love that yes and um the game she was
00:31:50.940basically she was playing chess while everyone else was playing checkers i i think that she was
00:31:56.960just she was on such a elevated level of intellect that these typical men couldn't help but fall for0.91
00:32:07.980it because they're like oh wait a woman that poses a challenge well let me see if i can conquer this
00:32:13.640Because that's the way men are today. They think of women, they're like, oh, you're a challenge. They think they need to conquer you. Well, you know, when you send them crying with their tails tucked between their legs, they realize you're a bigger challenge than they could handle.
00:32:27.400So I think the only reason why Cleopatra, not the only reason, two reasons why Cleopatra didn't win.
00:32:41.800Because she was smarter than both those men put together.
00:32:45.780Once she lost Caesar, she backed the wrong Roman.
00:32:49.540But there really wasn't any other Romans for her to back because Octavian clearly was not going to be an option for her.
00:32:55.860So the, and Lepidus, my God, I'm surprised he even made it into the, the history books because that was just a waste. So the only other option was Antony and Antony. And I remember you mentioning in your podcast that he probably had some sort of CTE or PTSD because of all the fighting that he was doing.
00:33:17.620And that is very likely, very, very likely, because we all know that the man had mental breakdowns towards the end because he felt his walls closing in.
00:33:29.840And it just and plus the man was drinking like it was water.
00:33:33.040So I think that he had all those kind of issues going against him as well.
00:33:38.300And then, you know, he just kept losing battles and Octavian just kept growing his ranks.
00:33:43.240yeah cleopatra just backed the wrong roman and that was that was her ultimate downfall antony
00:33:50.000was her downfall i won't say that it was her kids i won't say that it was her ambition i wouldn't say
00:33:56.460it was the only mistake i think she made and i wouldn't even say it was a mistake that she killed
00:34:01.920her brothers or her sister i wouldn't even say that was a mistake i think the only mistake
00:34:06.500cleopatra made was antony that's what's interesting too about um i think just in terms of like the
00:34:14.320average person not you and me but people who have like a normal amount of knowledge about history
00:34:19.420um they're just like oh yeah cleopatra she's this like famous sexy woman maybe they've heard
00:34:25.100about like cleopatra and antony is this like tragic love story like he's people remember
00:34:31.440those two together more than her with caesar i think i think that's because um even though
00:34:38.780and see that's the thing when when they talk about the history they they kind of talk about it like
00:34:44.060a tv episode where it's like this happened and oh wait this happened but in actuality there were
00:34:50.100five years in between when this happened compared to when this happened but they don't get into all
00:34:55.060little details because they've only got a one hour episode so they they they pick and choose
00:35:01.140the things that they thought were most important she spent a lot of time with Caesar but she spent0.79
00:35:05.780more time with Antony and I think that combined with the fact that Antony led to her downfall
00:35:12.060which is what they all ultimately wanted was her downfall is why they talk about him the most
00:35:17.760because um caesar did a lot of debaucherous things he just did most elite romans did male or female
00:35:27.620so mostly the males though but because you know man hater but they're not gonna focus on that
00:35:35.900with him they're gonna focus on all the the great accomplishments accomplishments that he did
00:35:41.060When it comes to Antony, he became basically an enemy of Rome. Therefore, we're going to paint him as a sex addict, drinker, heathen, whatever. And that's all because of her, because they were so intertwined with one another.0.97
00:35:57.740and I think that's why they talk about that quote-unquote love story more than they do
00:36:02.620the time she spent with Caesar because Caesar really even after death was still idolized
00:36:07.820whereas Antony just he just kept going down on the famous meter no you're right and it's really
00:36:14.500it's just sort of like making him like the scapegoat in that way it's just like Cleopatra
00:36:18.860was there we have to talk about her but if you kind of tie those two together then it's like
00:36:23.200oh these two people yeah i know and you're right because julius caesar is still remembered as this
00:36:28.900like famous i think he's still to normal people a famous like a name that you might have heard of
00:36:34.500julius caesar whereas mark antony is only ever really talked about in context of antony and
00:36:39.920cleopatra like that's that's his whole thing even though he was a great general i mean he he started
00:36:47.520falling off at the end, but you had to do good to get to the point that he did in the first place
00:36:53.480because the Roman army was huge. There were a lot of surgeons and generals and whomever,
00:36:59.720but he stood out above the rest. So he had to be good at what he did to get to the rank that he
00:37:06.080did. But the only way you can bring someone like that down in their minds is to tie him to a woman
00:37:12.520and tie him to a woman that they didn't agree with how she acted.1.00
00:37:27.020And I say this to people a lot, and they're kind of like,
00:37:30.940oh my God, here she goes again on one of her history tangents.
00:37:33.220But if you really look at our society and ancient Roman society,
00:37:37.760There are so many exacts and similarities. We are technically a democracy. We have a Senate. We have technically the checks and balances of how things are supposed to operate within our government.
00:37:57.800It was the same in ancient Rome. You look at a lot of the federal buildings that were built years ago. You've got those columns that they had in ancient Roman architecture. And I don't know if they're still doing it or not, but it was a trend on social media over the summer where men think about ancient Rome a lot.
00:38:17.880Well, they think about ancient Rome a lot because they really consider that to be one of the heights of their glory, of their control, of their assholery, I guess you'd say.
00:38:30.440So, you know, that's why they look at Caesar the way they do is because he had so many triumphs and conquests.
00:38:38.480And when I say triumphs, I actually mean parading down the street triumphs with his little parades.
00:38:45.360But I think that our society really looks at the ancient Roman society as one of the ultimate elites.
00:38:55.760And, you know, generals in World War II were looking at strategies from Caesar, you know, that they probably still do throw that in the computer, run the simulation on based on what Caesar did.
00:39:07.420How can we make that work in our time?0.98
00:39:10.400So he's just he's always going to be revered no matter how much of a dick he was.0.97
00:39:15.360he's always going to be revered and to a certain point i think that he deserves that0.96
00:39:20.160and i i hate to say that because you know man hater but he he was pretty amazing and
00:39:28.920his ego i think led to his ultimate downfall i think if he would have been a little bit more
00:39:36.700humble about some of the things he did they wouldn't have turned him into a pin cushion
00:39:41.980but you know he did what he did and the guys thought that the guys club thought that he was0.97
00:39:50.640stepping all over their egos so you know we got to take care of this um octavian went out hunted
00:39:57.000them down because you know that was what the julian ego was supposed to do you gotta you gotta
00:40:04.020avenge your family you gotta avenge what what you feel is yours so he went out hunted all these
00:40:11.960guys down, along with Antony. But I don't think there's ever a time that's going to come that
00:40:20.820Caesar's not going to be considered to be the ultimate. I don't see it happening.
00:40:27.500I don't think there's ever going to be a time where Antony is given any kind of respect for
00:40:33.240the type of general that he was. I don't think there's ever going to be a time where Cleopatra
00:40:37.840is ever going to be given the respect she is just due period i don't see any of those three things
00:40:43.640happening no the narratives are so established but just what you were saying it's just really
00:40:49.180making me think like yeah you know julius caesar was assassinated like the roman empire did fall
00:40:55.900like it failed but people only look at the glory of it and then cleopatra has always looked at like
00:41:02.140oh yeah but then eventually she failed and then she killed herself where it's like but she did so
00:41:05.880much stuff before that so we only look at her downfall and ancient rome it's like we're blinkers0.96
00:41:12.080on like we're only looking at when it was good allegedly and they man i mean um the barbarians
00:41:19.620sacked rome what was it two times three times at least yeah and so it's like yeah rome was mighty
00:41:27.500but they weren't perfect they overextended themselves because ego and they couldn't
00:41:35.000protect the provinces they had they couldn't protect rome and they started pissing off a
00:41:40.020whole lot of people they considered to be beneath them and those and i mean we even say it today
00:41:44.640if the little people just banded together you can oust the big people that's what they did back then
00:41:52.260they got tired of rome they ousted them bottom line look what happened in britain exactly but
00:41:59.660we never like i say we i mean just be culturally societally we're like julius caesar was so smart
00:42:04.740and he was so great it's like he was murdered he was by his best friends he was and that's the
00:42:11.840thing that that that just gets me because how how jealous or how spiteful or how whatever do you have
00:42:23.860to be to knife down someone you called friend for years someone that protected your city i mean he
00:42:34.020went out on campaigns too he was out there fighting too he didn't he wasn't sitting up on
00:42:39.000some throne somewhere dictating to other people how they were supposed to fight he was on the
00:42:43.460battlefield he might not have always been out there with his sword but he was there he did all
00:42:50.120of that for rome and then they turn around and kill him on the senate floor i mean that's the1.00
00:42:56.440most disrespectful thing you could possibly do to a man that had really i mean yeah he was a jerk0.98
00:43:03.420but he had given his life for Rome he had and they turn around and they do that to him and0.98
00:43:09.740call him this that and the other well let me see how that worked out for you it's and this is the
00:43:16.640thing it's like even just going through like the story of Cleopatra there's so many um what happened
00:43:22.360to Julius Caesar is such a part of her story and what happened to so much of her story and just
00:43:26.660like I'm like and what her sisters did like her sisters were all trying to take over too it's just
00:43:30.980like she like everyone it was such a dangerous situation for everyone to be in it was like i
00:43:37.640think i said in it was in my notes i probably said in the podcast it's like you're not being
00:43:41.060paranoid like if you're not being paranoid then you're going to be the one who's murdered next
00:43:44.200because everyone is murdering everyone and the fact that she lasted as long as she did
00:43:48.780and that she thrived for quite a while she made it to almost 40 years old number one that's a feat0.99
00:43:56.580in and of itself because people didn't live that long back then especially having babies like women
00:44:01.540who are dying childbirth every day and she had three yeah she had four kids oh that's right yeah
00:44:06.220yeah i forgot i always forget about philadelphus right yeah he he was just there you know poor
00:44:15.040little guy but it's she just and you know it was funny because i never thought about this until i
00:44:21.640watched the documentary on Netflix, the eunuchs, the advisors, think about their names. They were
00:44:31.320Macedonian Greek names. These were people that were deeply rooted into basically,
00:44:37.940fuck Egyptians, we're here, we're in charge. And I think the reason why they were always advising1.00
00:44:44.700brothers and sisters to go against Cleopatra is because she embraced the Egyptian culture.0.99
00:44:51.260Right. She's the only one who learned the language. Yeah.0.84
00:44:53.500Yep. Yeah. I'm pretty sure she went out in the streets pretty often, too, just to see how things were with people.
00:44:59.940And that was shown in the documentary. And I actually thought about that before I saw the documentary.
00:45:03.720But I'm like, you know what? I'm glad you put that in there because I really do believe that she actually went out amongst the people.
00:45:09.240Because when we've talked about this before, the common people wouldn't know what the royal family looked like because we had no Internet.
00:45:17.640We had no photos. We didn't have cell phones. So they wouldn't know it was her. As long as she was dressed like them, they wouldn't know it was her walking the streets. And I think she did that quite often just to be more immersed in it and to try to understand them better. And so I think that the advisors did not like that about her, which is why they were always in the ear of her siblings saying, you got to rise up against her because she's going to go against what we're trying to do here.
00:45:42.580so and that's probably part of where this um conspiracy or suspicion that like she was maybe
00:45:49.820part egyptian that she's some egyptian blood it's like well why else would she be like interested in0.87
00:45:54.800the like egyptian people and learn the language like maybe she learned that from her mother or0.56
00:45:58.560but it's like also maybe she was just a person who like culturally she was macedonian but she0.98
00:46:05.320just gave a shit like that's all she was inquisitive yeah i'd say that she wanted she's0.98
00:46:09.800one of those people because you know how we are about history we want to know as much as we can0.99
00:46:13.300our poor little brains can only handle so much but I think she was the same way she wanted to know
00:46:18.580she just she wanted to know so she went out and she learned I think that that's why she was so
00:46:27.520interesting to Caesar and Antony is because she she wanted to understand the world around her
00:46:36.960and even though they didn't realize the world was as big as it was she it was still big to them
00:46:42.680and for this woman to want to know about the world around her and to know as much as she actually did0.91
00:46:50.960there's no way they wouldn't fall for that no way because i if i run into someone that likes to talk0.98
00:46:57.500about history the way i do you're gonna know me for the rest of your damn life i'm not letting go0.50
00:47:01.820you this is why we're this is how we became friends and this is why we're still friends0.57
00:47:06.380it's just like oh oh you're like me and i think that that was that was the intrigue for them
00:47:13.140i don't think that and you mentioned this in your your previous podcast that1.00
00:47:18.000she probably wasn't very well versed in in the sexual part of of being a woman because she
00:47:26.220probably just wasn't exposed to it as much i don't think it was overly important to her
00:47:31.080as much as it was learning so I wouldn't say that I I mean she was she was more experienced
00:47:38.460by the time Antony came along but I don't think that that was it with Caesar yeah I don't think
00:47:43.220she was experienced enough to try to to use her femininity against him I just I really think that
00:47:50.840she realized this is a man like strategy he likes intelligence let me let me show him what I'm all
00:47:57.240about. And you get to having a conversation, you know, you and I are probably going to be on this
00:48:01.880podcast for the next five hours. You know, you find someone that you could have an intelligent
00:48:06.460conversation with, you're not going to let that go. And he, I think, was just enthralled with
00:48:12.640the knowledge this young lady had. And he didn't want to let it go. Anthony probably thought she
00:48:19.100was pretty. I mean, I've seen some of the drawings or whatever you want to have of some of the
00:48:25.760Roman woman so she probably did look better than some of the ladies he had to choose from
00:48:28.980back home but I don't I think he was intrigued by her intelligence only to a certain extent1.00
00:48:35.160I think he was just a horny little asshole and just wanted in her pants or her dress whatever0.99
00:48:41.560it was she wore then but yeah but that's what's so like just I remember from when I was like1.00
00:48:47.460putting together that podcast in the first place and just thinking about Cleopatra again it's just
00:48:52.240like it's so frustrating to me that she was so smart and so clever and so capable and society
00:49:02.420is like she was sexy like she maybe she was but also you know like sometimes you see pictures of
00:49:09.620people from like the victorian era like photographs of people and you're like that was the most
00:49:14.120gorgeous courtesan in france you're like her but it's like yeah like it's intangible sometimes
00:49:21.280like somebody could just look like the most plain person but their personality just elevates it to a
00:49:27.360point where you're just like oh my gosh I'm dazzled and I think Cleopatra had that for sure
00:49:31.480like I think she's like she's such a like I think when someone is curious that is so appealing to
00:49:38.600everybody like someone who can have a conversation like you hear about I don't know who some of the
00:49:44.680celebrities I was at a comic-con I met Jeff Goldblum I paid for the like picture and I was
00:49:49.540just like oh my god like emanating from him he was like hi how are you he's like i like your
00:49:55.520glasses i was like melt like just like that level and i'm sure lots of celebrities or politicians
00:50:03.460have that power and i feel like if you when you if you're someone like that if you're mark anthony
00:50:08.220or julius caesar someone you know you have that effect on other people then you meet someone who
00:50:12.020has that effect on you then i think you're just like oh this is rare this is unusual yeah i went
00:50:18.900to, uh, one of those conventions with my sons, um, before I left Minnesota and I got to meet,
00:50:24.880um, Nichelle Nichols, um, who was obviously, uh, I just, I was a huge fan. She just, she's an idol
00:50:34.160to me. And I sat down next to her. She was like, um, so what are we doing today? I said, I just
00:50:41.020want to have a, I just want to be in a picture with you. That's, that's all I want. And she
00:50:45.200looked at me. She said, what's your name? And I said, Gina. And I'm like, oh my God, she's talking
00:50:50.380to me. And I said, Gina, she goes, you are really beautiful, Gina. I almost cried. I almost cried.
00:50:58.400I said, thank you. Oh my gosh. And she's like, come on, let's take our picture. I was like,
00:51:04.280yes, please. And so I get it. I get that when you meet someone that you view in such high regard
00:51:13.020that they, I mean, obviously she was beautiful, but even if by society's standards, she wasn't,
00:51:20.480I still would have been like on the verge of tears because this woman just, she was just it
00:51:27.680for me, you know? And so I get what you're saying about how, you know, it didn't necessarily have
00:51:35.600to be about her looks on why everyone was just like wow because she probably just emanated this
00:51:43.480you're you're lucky to be around me kind of vibe and then if she started speaking and it was
00:51:50.480considered to be intelligent and and well-informed how do you not gravitate towards that how do you
00:51:59.120not want to just sit and just listen you know I would have loved I mean granted there was a line
00:52:03.200so i couldn't sit and talk to miss nichols for very long but if i could have just sat and just
00:52:07.440talked to her i would have been there for hours yeah picking her brain on everything yeah well1.00
00:52:14.460now i'm thinking too and you know more about this than i do but like roman society women were not1.00
00:52:19.160that highly educated in general right like they were taught to be like stay like to run the
00:52:23.600household so like to julie season mark anthony it would be rare to meet a woman who is scholarly or0.79
00:52:30.340who is educated so that would just be unique and still running the house she was she was still
00:52:36.680running the house too so yeah i just i think that based on how they thought of themselves
00:52:43.680and based on how she presented herself to them they didn't stand a chance um i also think that
00:52:52.300because of how the general male populace thought of themselves and how she presented herself that's
00:52:59.580what made them dislike her the most because they i wouldn't say they weren't smart i would just say
00:53:06.520that they they clearly were on a different level than caesar and anthony because they weren't in
00:53:11.280charge caesar and anthony were they were just kind of like the background singers so sorry i always
00:53:18.380go back to music with everything for some reason no i love i love i love picturing them in their
00:53:23.100toga is just like as the right that's literally swaying back and forth literally it they are and
00:53:28.600so they they considered themselves to be highly intelligent men because they were part of the
00:53:34.760senate and they were writing poetry and they were writing soliloquies and they were doing this and1.00
00:53:40.540that and the other and they had villas here there and everywhere and this bitch little girl coming1.00
00:53:46.720in here talking about all this stuff that she shouldn't know anything about trying to act like1.00
00:53:51.800she's better than us trying to act like she's smarter than us well she probably was um they're
00:53:57.260automatically not gonna like her because they aren't in a position of basically ultimate power
00:54:02.940like Caesar was Caesar didn't feel like he had an equal he didn't feel like he had a rival really
00:54:10.060he didn't really view them as rivals he viewed them as his subordinates so he meets someone that
00:54:16.080male or female didn't matter he felt was more of an equal he's gonna want that in his life
00:54:23.000that's men that's just that's always been men that's always gonna be men because some point
00:54:30.520in history it was thought of that men really should be held at a higher level than women
00:54:39.260And that has just continued through history and morphed and gotten bastardized somehow to the point to where we're supposed to be subordinate.
00:54:48.940We broke out of that a little bit for a little while with the feminist movement.
00:54:53.600But it looks like they're trying to shove us right back down in there.
00:54:56.420I'm going to be the first one to say, don't make me take it to the streets because I submit to no one.
00:55:25.340They weren't ready for a lot of women in history because there were a number or there was like a handful, I'd say, of Egyptian queens that did so much better than their male counterparts.0.95
00:55:38.340counterparts when it came to the decisions they made for the overall country. And we'll get into
00:55:43.300that on another podcast. But it's been like that with almost every culture throughout all of
00:55:51.220history, where when a woman really truly shows that she knows her shit, and she's handling1.00
00:55:57.960business, men get butthurt, and they think they need to destroy that. Regardless of the fact that0.99
00:56:04.400it's actually helping them, what these women are doing, they cannot, their egos cannot let them
00:56:09.480accept that this woman is doing better than a man would have done. And they've got to destroy it.
00:56:15.180And now for a quick advertising break.
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00:59:16.280and we're back i saw i'm always looking at you and i both are always looking at like quotes and
00:59:24.160things and i know that because everything you post in your instagram story i'm like yes yes i feel
00:59:28.700the same but i saw something that somebody was saying somewhere about like if traditionally if
00:59:35.280like biologically if men were supposed to be in control of everything instead of women then why
00:59:40.800would they keep having to make laws and rules and stopping women from doing stuff it's like0.89
00:59:45.760this is clear that's clearly not nature if you have to like create laws and like shame women0.79
00:59:53.620to stop doing things so why would women be doing them if it's not it's the whole thing it's like0.60
00:59:57.760oh this is natural it's like the hunter-gatherer or whatever it's like no it's like if it was then1.00
01:00:04.140we wouldn't need laws yeah I mean I'm a single mom I raised two boys I were there well they'd
01:00:11.360hate if I call them boys because they're grown-ass men but you know how they are but I I never had
01:00:18.480any problems out of them and they're very strong-willed young men I can imagine your sons
01:00:25.280would be but I you know there was never getting in trouble at school there was there has never
01:00:32.640been in trouble getting anything with the law. Nothing. They're law-abiding, productive members
01:00:39.860of society. I'm a single mom. I did that. I didn't need a man to help me teach them how to be
01:00:48.880a productive member of society. To say that it's natural for a man to, I'm not saying that it's
01:00:55.860not good to have a two-parent home because obviously I would have liked that. That just
01:00:59.800didn't quite work out between me and my ex-husband but to say that a woman can't do something0.98
01:01:06.100to say a woman couldn't go out there and shoot her own buffalo and skin it up and cook it for the
01:01:14.460for the family to say a woman can't do something it's the man's place it's this the man's whatever1.00
01:01:21.520to be doing this, that's idiotic. Because even just put divorce aside, women that tragically1.00
01:01:31.580lose their husbands, they've had to do it on their own. And this has been throughout all of history
01:01:38.600where a woman is going to have to do it on her own. Granted, most of the time they didn't want1.00
01:01:42.800to because the way society is set up saying that a woman can't do it by herself, she's got to have
01:01:47.200a man to do it but the the thought process that men have that they need to be in charge of
01:01:53.760everything they need to be taking care of everything women have proved time and time again0.99
01:01:58.320we don't need you we can do it our damn selves but they're just so they're they're holding on0.97
01:02:06.380to that one for dear life and i don't think they're ever going to give that one up it's the0.96
01:02:12.880sort of thing like there's some you can see in some people just like celebrities or whatever
01:02:17.440politicians where it's or just people dumbasses on the internet who are just like saying something
01:02:23.000where I'm just like oh like they have a core belief like if that's their core belief that0.92
01:02:26.500like men are so important and then so they could never change their mind about anything that
01:02:31.720challenges that core belief because then the whole house of cards comes down and then what
01:02:36.100do they have where it's like you can tell that someone thinking something is so vital to their
01:02:42.180entire being where it's like you're never going to change this person's mind because you know
01:02:47.500when people are like oh well if you call whatever it's like well if if that's sexual harassment
01:02:52.300then i've been harassing women every day of my life and it's like maybe you have been but they
01:02:59.400could never accept that you know because that that means recontextualizing wrong yeah exactly
01:03:04.780exactly and that's what it often is it's just that yeah people who just can't be wrong i think
01:03:09.660that that's um that's a lot of um what happened with with Caesar and and Antony where there might
01:03:17.420have been obviously they they respected to a certain extent her intelligence but I think
01:03:23.280there were some decisions that she made and how it ultimately made them look within Roman society0.90
01:03:30.820where they were like oh shit maybe maybe I was wrong for for sticking up for her like that just
01:03:37.780like Caesar never publicly claimed Caesarian. I have no doubt that he actually liked the little0.81
01:03:43.740boy, because if he didn't, he would have had him killed, regardless of whatever power that
01:03:48.540Cleopatra had. So I think he liked the little boy. He never claimed him because he realized that
01:03:55.420that would have made him look even worse within Roman society. And it's all about appearances.0.61
01:04:02.060and in every big society it's always about appearances you know look at what ancient
01:04:08.660Egyptians did they built all those big huge temples and look at their their tombs they're
01:04:13.300huge underground tombs with vast amount of gold and jewelry and stuff in there it's all about
01:04:20.020appearances and so a lot of times I think that they Antony and Caesar might have regretted some
01:04:26.540of the things they did or they didn't regret the things they did but I think some of their actions
01:04:30.820really revolved around, I can't, I can't look like a punk to, to the society because then I'm
01:04:37.360going to, well, I mean, ultimately they viewed Caesar as a punk and they took him out, but he
01:04:41.940tried to hold onto that as long as he could. And so he spread himself thin on who he was trying
01:04:48.320to keep happy. He was trying to keep Cleopatra happy to a certain extent, but he was trying to
01:04:54.060keep all of Roman society happy above and beyond everything because he was in charge of Rome and
01:05:02.220that was what was most important to him. Cleopatra was important to him, but ultimately this is all
01:05:07.620about Rome. I'm a Roman. I'm the head of Rome first and foremost. And so he had to keep up
01:05:15.720the appearances and keep them happy, which is why if he had let her in, I think, this is another
01:05:21.940a theory of mine. If he had let her in, given her a little bit more power, claimed Caesarian,
01:05:27.560got the Egyptians as a whole kind of on his side, I don't think they would have got him on the Senate
01:05:33.520floor. I mean, we've all heard the story that the reason why they were even able to get to him is0.95
01:05:39.120because Antony was called away at the last second. So he wasn't able, because they knew that he would
01:05:44.320fight for him. They all knew that. So they had to get Antony away so they could take Caesar out.
01:05:49.400I truly believe that if he had elevated everything the way he probably should have, she would have had some of her personal guards there always looking out for him.
01:06:05.620No, but it's like, I think that could be a good basis for some sort of like, I don't know, book or movie or something like, imagine, you know, people are always like, imagine, like, what if this side won the war?
01:06:15.120It's like, well, imagine what if this had happened?
01:06:19.020And if Caesar hadn't been killed, would, what would have happened to the Roman Empire?
01:06:22.380Like, because then Octavian doesn't come in necessarily.
01:06:27.240You don't have the golden age of his reign.
01:06:30.840Then does America still model themselves after the Roman Empire or is it, I don't know.0.80
01:06:36.240Honestly, I think that Octavian wouldn't even been who he was if it wasn't for his, for two of his wives.0.60
01:07:36.420They went around and killed everyone that didn't go along with what they wanted, and they stole everything that they had.
01:07:42.140Livia was livid because her family riches were taken. Her current husband, who she had a couple
01:07:49.640of kids with, I want to say, was a dork and was never going to help her aspire to what she really0.97
01:07:57.480wanted to be in life. She set her sights on Octavian, who was also married to Scribina at the0.81
01:08:04.860time. This didn't stop anyone in ancient Rome. It was never an issue. Yeah. But she
01:08:11.720He, from what I understand, was the one that really, truly pushed him to go after Antony.0.96
01:08:19.280And so I'm not saying that Octavian wasn't a pompous ass, but I think that her in his ear basically telling him, if you don't do this, you're a punk.0.65
01:08:31.220He probably took chances that he probably would not have taken if it wasn't for her pushing him to do it.0.94
01:08:38.400And from what I understand, he actually liked her because if he didn't, he would have got rid of her too. She was around until she passed, I believe. But I really think that even though men want to say that they're this, they're that, the other, I don't think that half of them would have done what they did in their lives if it wasn't for a strong woman in their ear pushing them to do these things.
01:09:03.360Well, this is just reminding me of the Nefertiti discussion too.
01:09:06.320i am not saying that akhenaten didn't want to do some of the things he did but he might have been0.98
01:09:13.080sort of iffy undoing them until she got in his ear and was like look i didn't marry a bitch so1.00
01:09:19.900you better get out there and handle your business because no woman wanted to be married to a bitch0.99
01:09:26.680So I honestly believe that Livia is the backbone of Octavian's audacity and some of the things that he was really willing to do because, you know, he went around gathering all the people that were supposed to be supporters of Egypt.0.99
01:09:46.920He went around gathering them to his side because he knew that even though Rome had a really good army, a very disciplined army, he was going to need more.
01:09:57.960So he took away what she had, put it on his side, and used that to be able to conquer her.
01:10:06.040And see, I won't say that he was necessarily trying to be shady.
01:10:09.020I mean, that's just the nature of the game.
01:10:10.820You got to do what you got to do to win.
01:10:12.080But if he didn't do that, I'm not sure he would have won.
01:10:16.920you know if those different um i don't know necessarily want to say they were provinces
01:10:22.860they're just allies of egypt if they remained allies of egypt our history would look a lot
01:10:28.080different it was a lot of um like just between octavian but also julius caesar mc anthony
01:10:34.240cleopatra it was a lot of people who were playing at like a really high level of strategy and that's
01:10:40.300kind of satisfying in a way to read about because sometimes just one side just decimates the other
01:10:46.760side and you're like well that wasn't very interesting but this is like it really could
01:10:50.000have gone in any which way it could one wrong move on on the victor's side and we could be
01:10:57.140having a completely different conversation right now yeah and that's the thing i i'm not taking
01:11:02.840away from anyone else anyone's intelligence as far as those three main players go because they
01:11:08.140were all clearly highly intelligent very good strategists but i do believe that um to a certain
01:11:15.360extent, their advisors deserve some of the credit because no one person is going to think of
01:11:21.160everything. That's just not human nature. I'm not going to think of everything to talk about
01:11:27.260in a podcast that you might think to talk about. I really believe that the advisors should have,
01:11:35.360they should have had a good retirement because I think that even if they didn't give a very
01:11:39.600specific, you need to do this, they would have said something that would have made it click
01:11:44.180in Caesar's head or an Octavian's head or someone's head. Oh, wait, maybe I should do this.
01:11:50.440So I really, truly believe that, you know, with the exception of the conniving eunuchs that were
01:11:55.360around, I think, I think the advisors actually deserve some of the credit on these victories.
01:12:01.560Definitely. You know what? It's the same as like, right now there's like the Academy Awards or
01:12:05.340whatever. And it's like, everyone's out there campaigning, but you know that they have their
01:12:08.380teams behind them. Like they're deciding what outfits they're going to wear on the red carpet.
01:12:11.640they're deciding what stories are they going to tell in their interviews it's like the person
01:12:15.740gets the academy award but it's like there's a whole team of people strategizing and that's
01:12:20.860my ridiculous comparison to ancient roman warfare but it's the same it's like one person nowhere no
01:12:26.900one has to have one person who does this all themselves like you have to throw ideas back
01:12:31.200and forth with somebody you don't just figure this out in your head like that's not yeah and
01:12:36.060it's often it's these unsung advisors or like livia like you know your wife in the background
01:12:41.180or whoever yeah or you know it's funny because there have been times where i'd be talking with
01:12:47.940my younger son and i call him younger even though he's 23 and we'll be talking about whatever and
01:12:54.020he'll say something and i'm like damn i never even thought about it that way yeah and and you're
01:12:59.020thinking i'm so much older than you i know so much more than you but a different perspective0.99
01:13:03.900you know he's he's that asshole gen z that doesn't give a damn about anything so it's just always0.99
01:13:10.400going to be like this is what i think screw all the rest of you i try to be a little bit more0.99
01:13:15.660diplomatic about the things i do but might not always come out that way but he has made me view0.95
01:13:21.780things in totally different ways at times i'm like damn i just my brain's just not wired like that
01:13:28.420and so um i i i think and it's been portrayed like this and i i can actually see it happening
01:13:36.760is Cleopatra really did consider herself the reincarnation of ISIS. She considered herself
01:13:42.780to be the end all be all when it came to making decisions. You know, if you didn't like what she
01:13:47.620said, off with your head kind of thing. So I really believe that in the end, people might
01:13:54.980have been trying to advise her about things, but she was so stuck on, I know what the fuck I'm0.93
01:14:00.320doing get away from me that she might have made some bad decisions here and there that could have
01:14:08.180helped her we don't know everything that happened in the background we only know like the battle of
01:14:11.740actium and all that kind of stuff we know we know the big stuff that happened we don't know all the
01:14:15.820small stuff that built up to some of these these big occurrences so she could have possibly made
01:14:20.920some smaller bad decisions that led up to the downfall and some of these bigger things that
01:14:29.020we know about because she i think i'm not saying she was as arrogant as maybe caesar anthony but
01:14:35.500she really did consider herself to be above the people that were around her she might have made0.99
01:14:40.680some bad decisions well like you said well like you know she created a new whatever you said it
01:14:45.200was so smart like playing the game she like created a new game or whatever but it's like
01:14:49.380she created the game she was playing and no one else understood the rules so who could advise her
01:14:54.140when that's true when no one else is playing at that level yeah that is definitely true but it
01:15:00.100from everything that i've read and seen um she did um hold her two her two ladies um in high regard
01:15:08.760so i think that um if they would have the two ladies that um that she committed suicide with
01:15:15.500um her two aides i i do believe that she would have listened to what they said faster than she
01:15:21.720would someone else. In her younger years, I'm sure she listened to pretty much everything that
01:15:26.280her advisors told her. Because as a young person, you should realize you don't know everything.
01:15:33.420You got to learn from these older folks that have been there and done that. So I think she did take
01:15:38.040under consideration a lot of what she was told in her younger years. But by the time she got
01:15:43.040to the Anthony portion of her life, I think that she was just like, no, I got this one.
01:15:48.860but thanks anyways no exactly like she's been through enough i could see why she would have
01:15:53.540that confidence but also it's like there's no book there's no guidebook she's doing stuff like
01:15:57.180that no one's ever done before so all she could do is just be like her instincts have helped her
01:16:01.500this far so like just keep going with her instincts i guess and one thing that people
01:16:06.380don't really ever talk about because um they're they aren't talked about a lot in in the writings
01:16:13.380but not only was she trying to protect her country and her standing she was trying to protect her
01:16:21.160kids and as a parent i can understand how you would take your kids into consideration on some
01:16:31.320of the decisions that you make she did send them away at one point um but to my knowledge they were
01:16:38.180pretty much always there in the palace. And so she would always have that reminder of,
01:16:44.280I got to take care of my kids. I got to try to keep my position for my kids because my kids0.76
01:16:48.540deserve to inherit that after I'm gone. That was just the mindset of everyone that was in power
01:16:53.860back then. You got to make sure your errors are taken care of. And so, yeah, she might have been
01:17:00.280the baddest bitch, but she was still a woman. And women are going to view their kids differently1.00
01:17:05.360than men most of the time. And they're going to be a little bit softer about how, how they view
01:17:10.920them and what they do for them. And I think that her kids might've played a part in some of the
01:17:16.240decisions she made as well. I think they must have. And also way back at the beginning of
01:17:21.320this conversation, we were talking about culture and stuff and her kids were half Egyptian, half
01:17:27.020Roman. So the fact that she's like queen of Egypt going in war against Rome, that would also to her,
01:17:33.860she's like what what does this mean for my children like where are they are they gonna
01:17:37.120are they gonna be safe after this if i win are they gonna be safe if they win like where are
01:17:41.460they gonna live like yeah and because it's like her son is like the son of caesar like
01:17:45.980what's gonna happen to him yeah but like i said had caesar just done what he should have done
01:17:52.580in the first place that conversation would be going differently so um she i don't know i
01:17:59.600obviously we don't know um but like just speaking as a parent i know that i have made some decisions
01:18:06.600that might not necessarily helped me on what i thought i wanted at the time but it was more for
01:18:12.780them um ultimately it was the right decision in the end but i just i think that a lot of her a lot
01:18:21.520of her actions towards the end might have been skewed a bit by by what you just said on you know
01:18:28.160does anyone really win in this situation you know because they're from both places it was too much0.97
01:18:35.120for one young lady to have to to deal with i think because she was juggling a lot of balls
01:18:39.840you know um you're you're literally in charge of an entire country how do you handle that i mean
01:18:48.360how does that not at some point feel overwhelming where you are responsible for an entire country
01:18:55.160however many people were in that country you're in charge of an entire country you are responsible
01:18:59.860for your children you are responsible for your household she had so much responsibility and
01:19:07.040really no support ever the opposite everyone was trying to murder her all the time she was exactly1.00
01:19:13.960so you have you she really had no one in her corner and so you know even though i know she0.99
01:19:24.140would have put on a brave face when she was out in public and she would have put her foot down on0.99
01:19:29.460who who's in charge that woman had to be in a corner breaking down here and there because
01:19:34.900there's gonna come a point where it's just gonna be too much it just it just is I don't I'm not
01:19:41.320in charge of a country I'm in charge of my one little house with my regular little kids that's
01:19:46.780it and sometimes it feels overwhelming for me so how is it not overwhelming at a young age to be
01:19:53.320in charge of so much that's going to make you make a bad decision at some point too and everything
01:19:59.160she all the decisions she was making at a very young age were all like literal like do or die
01:20:04.880it's like this is it's not i'm sure it's challenging to be in charge of a country
01:20:11.460full stop in general but like a country that's like at war okay that's like a war and everything's
01:20:17.300Chaos. And see, that's probably where a lot of she probably could have built up some
01:20:25.960phantom support with the Roman women had she not been so far outside of what their society1.00
01:20:36.340told them women were supposed to be. Now, I know there had to have been a fair amount of women in1.00
01:20:42.580Rome. It was like, good for her, you know, stick it to the patriarchy. But for the most part,1.00
01:20:47.940you have all these snooty ass rich women, like, well, she's just not acting like a proper woman.1.00
01:20:53.960So whatever happens to her, she deserves. And they're going to be saying that to their husbands1.00
01:20:58.800who are part of Senate, who are making the decisions on what shouldn't be happening
01:21:03.500within the Roman society. So you got that whole snowball effect going on there that
01:21:07.880if she just would have been a proper woman and stayed in her place, none of this would be0.98
01:21:14.520happening. A lot of people had that thought, men and women, they were probably even teaching it to0.99
01:21:20.000their kids because you're going to be raised to do what society tells you you're supposed to do.
01:21:25.680So I think that just because she was just such a strong woman, she just didn't have the amount
01:21:31.920of support she could have had if she had a husband that was in charge making the decisions1.00
01:21:37.500then they would be like oh she's just the poor woman that has to follow along with what her
01:21:41.500husband's saying i support her because she's going through a lot she was the one making the decisions1.00
01:21:46.440so the other women were like well fuck that bitch because she's stepping out of line she needs to1.00
01:21:51.020get herself figured out and stop trying to come after our men so i just i think she lost a lot1.00
01:21:56.360of support because she we've talked about before she was just going against societal norms well
01:22:01.560that's the same thing like what i was saying a minute ago but just like if somebody has this
01:22:06.440ingrained belief and if you start questioning that about yourself then like what do you believe in
01:22:12.260and these women were raised to think like women are the goal for a woman is your name is written
01:22:16.960down twice it's like when you're born and when you die like you don't want you don't want anyone
01:22:22.480to talk about you ever and they're like that is what women's role and then Cleopatra comes in and0.68
01:22:26.440it's like wait if she gets away with this then that means everything that they've ever believed
01:22:30.340or been taught is a lie and then what does that mean and then that like challenges all of society
01:22:35.880So it's like, if she got away with this, then like Rome and what women did in Rome, if they're like, she got away with this.
01:22:42.940So then like, why do we have to follow different rules?0.74
01:26:26.460Did they see her as a scandalous person?0.99
01:26:28.440But also, did she do anything that was especially scandalous?1.00
01:26:32.580I honestly, I don't think she would rank super high on that because I think that she just acted the way it was expected for someone in her position to act.
01:26:42.800I think in Egypt, it's kind of like, yeah, that's what a pharaoh does.
01:26:46.160I think in Rome, they're all like, what? A woman is talking?1.00
01:26:49.200I don't think she didn't ever feel like she was doing something outside of what was her right, you know?
01:26:56.320and i don't think that i mean with the exception of the egyptians not liking her because she was
01:27:02.060part of the family that um came and conquered them overall i don't think they really saw anything
01:27:07.820wrong with anything that she was ever doing um i within the family no one really ever viewed
01:27:12.940anything wrong with what she was doing because it was just natural to kill each other anyway it's
01:27:17.760like oh you just killed your sister well your sister killed your other sister like that's not0.52
01:27:22.320scandalous to them so it's right yeah it's weird to think on the on the egypt side she wasn't
01:27:27.900scandalous at all she was just she was just going about her daily business on the roman side
01:27:33.300they would probably rank her at like uh between an eight and a ten that i i they would think that1.00
01:27:40.500she was just that was not right we could average that a lot and do like a five maybe does that
01:27:47.140i keep seeing cat tail yeah my my cat is she's excited about the scoring
01:27:51.020i've got this new like you can't see i have this like microphone stand so it's like elevated
01:27:59.800so she can just like walk back and forth now which thank god because i used to just have1.00
01:28:04.940my microphone on a pile of books and she would try to walk back and forth and topple over all1.00
01:28:08.800the books so she likes to be involved yeah are you okay with a five for scandalousness because1.00
01:28:15.080it's like yes because i don't think that she was she was just she was just day-to-day business for
01:28:21.480her yeah it's which is so funny but also that's why i like to judge it based on the the culture0.67
01:28:26.700that she's in and in egypt they're just like oh yeah she killed her she married her brother she
01:28:30.240killed her sister it's like yeah no it's just another tuesday in ancient egypt but you also
01:28:34.540have to understand that how many of the actual just regular egyptian people even knew that was
01:28:39.600happening and none of them would none of them would yeah they're just busy like farming and
01:28:43.960whatever and just trying to survive just trying to keep their own kids alive and give a damn about
01:28:48.200what's happening in that palace i i guarantee you 90 of the overall society in egypt had no clue any
01:28:56.280of those people really existed they knew there was a pharaoh but that was it all they know they know
01:29:01.240that he's called ptolemy but it's like for the last 300 years has been a pharaoh called ptolemy
01:29:06.560has it been the same guy i don't know who cares but versus yeah i think rome was just like oh my
01:29:11.620god it's a woman and she's educated and has thoughts anyway so i think of five just to
01:29:17.200balance out she's shocking in one place and not in the other place i agree okay um the next category0.88
01:29:21.840is the scheminess how and i think she's gonna score high here because like she's always
01:29:28.280the scheminess you need to thrive and not be murdered in her family exactly i you know what
01:29:37.040I honestly, honestly, if she wasn't as scheming as she was, we wouldn't know she had even existed in history at all.
01:29:47.320She wouldn't have gotten to where she was.
01:29:49.100I got to give her a nine on that, honestly.1.00
01:29:52.240I would honestly give her sister a 10 because her sister seems like she was quite the rival.0.99
01:34:37.180So she didn't do anything to any of those people, but they automatically built up in their minds how they needed to view her because she wasn't Roman.0.71
01:34:47.980Britain had built up in their minds how they had to view Megan because she's not white.
01:34:53.800Even though she's way lighter than me and can pass for white probably in most places, they didn't like her because she wasn't, in their eyes, pure.
01:35:04.400so that's that is that's been just kind of human nature apparently that if you don't fit exactly
01:35:13.420what someone thinks you're supposed to they're going to villainize you for the remainder of
01:35:17.400their lives and in whatever history books they can write for it so that's why i think that she
01:35:22.780would rank so high on on the scale of rome and i don't even want to say that i want offset it with
01:35:29.340i don't think i would i think that she was so significant to rome and the same way lots of
01:35:33.620people are born in one place but they're significant somewhere else but then also the
01:35:37.260significance every year it's like in the spirit halloween it's like cleopatra costume it's like
01:35:42.260she's it's a name that everyone knows like she's got how many movies how many tv shows yeah i mean
01:35:49.460i've even seen her as a character on cartoons so you know you don't see that with caesar you don't
01:35:55.300see that with anthony no uh you don't see it with ptolemy one two three four five six seven
01:36:00.180You don't see that, but you see it with her.
01:36:04.380You don't even see it with any of the previous Cleopatras.
01:36:07.780You don't see it with anybody but her.
01:36:11.580So I would have to actually, honestly, I would give her a 10 on that because of how she has stood the test of time and significance overall around the world.
01:36:22.060When honestly, just thinking about like, I'm looking at my fridge because I've got these like heroes of women's history, like magnets or whatever.
01:36:30.180Because whenever you get those sorts of things, Cleopatra is always there.
01:36:33.940But she's the one who's I don't know if there's another woman in history who is that mainstream, well-known, really, unless you talk about like Queen Victoria or something, but not even.
01:36:49.140I'm thinking about like your sons, although they're they're in your house.
01:36:53.820So I'm sure they've heard lots of Egyptian names and lots of historical names.
01:36:58.020And that's when I get the eye roll and the walk away.
01:37:00.180So if we think about just the average, you know, 22 year old person in the world, they've heard of Cleopatra. What other women from history have they even heard of? I don't know.
01:37:10.760And, you know, I did that before I started really digging into Nefertiti and writing about her. I was around a lot of young people for a while there. And so I was like, you know what, I want to see what they know. I want to see what they're being taught in their history classes beyond just straight American history.
01:37:26.640And I would ask all these little individual kids that range from probably like 12 to 16, like, do you know who Akhenaten is? Never heard it. Do you know who Nefertiti is? Let's say out of 10 people, I'd have maybe two that knew. You ask them, do you know who King Tut is? Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, because that's the one that gets talked about all the time.
01:37:48.540So if you ask them, you know, anything about anybody else in history of Egypt, they're not going to know. But you say Cleopatra, every single one of them knows. Everyone, whether they've got a history geek like me for a mom or not, you're going to know Cleopatra for some reason or another.
01:38:10.420And that is just amazing to me that this person that was considered to be an insignificant temptress to them, we don't even, you probably wrote something about her, you Roman scholar dude.
01:38:30.440No one knows you existed, but guess what?1.00
01:38:32.900That little bitch that you didn't like, we're still talking about her today.0.99
01:38:36.440I love how angry that would make Octavian.0.99
01:38:41.900You know, if you could go back in time and tell some of the people how some of these things have worked out, they, they, oh, God.
01:38:48.280They're like, she, out of this whole situation and all the names we've just said, like the only two that Cleopatra, I think almost everyone has heard of.
01:38:57.680Julius Caesar, like maybe a bit less, but still Octavian, no.
01:41:24.320Because, you know, when you're a young woman and you see women around you being strong
01:41:30.040and in a world where you're basically being told the whole time you're growing up that
01:41:34.400you're not supposed to be that, but you see this woman who also happens to be your mother
01:41:39.200being strong and defiant and successful, that's going to have a deep impression on you.
01:41:48.200And even though she was young when her mother died, she had all of that lifespan to have that imprint on her to understand the importance of her mother and understand the importance of the traditions that she was surrounded by.
01:42:04.960And so I'm I'm really glad that she didn't just give that up and just be like, oh, you know, I don't I don't want to suffer that kind of fate.
01:42:12.120You know, whatever you guys say, I'm really glad she held on to that.
01:42:15.400unfortunately it didn't go any further than that but the fact that she asserted her strength
01:42:22.240enough to not let go of that and to let people see that she hadn't let go of that
01:42:27.340you gotta admire that well and i think it's a big thing to live with in the aftermath of
01:42:34.760everything that just happened with cleopatra and to be her daughter and to be also named cleopatra
01:42:40.380it's just like oh god okay i can't there's no escaping it you know you're labeled that for
01:42:45.940the rest of your life knows who you are yeah yeah and what happened and what you come from
01:42:51.680so you know then it's a matter of you have to make the choice of who are you going to be what
01:42:58.140are you going to show the people around you like are you going to own that i think she picked a
01:43:00.820really good mix yeah she picked a really good mix of it yeah she wasn't like i'm going to change my
01:43:05.260name to Livia and be quiet. And yeah, she, I don't know. So I am really happy that that biography
01:43:13.480exists of her Cleopatra's daughter. Um, okay. The last category is so the sexism bonus, and this is
01:43:20.280like from zero to 10, how much did sexism get in the way of her living and thriving and doing the1.00
01:43:26.720things she wanted to do? Now that one, I can say equally affected her on both sides, the Egyptian1.00
01:43:33.360and the roman because she was never until she got rid of all her little gangly little brothers1.00
01:43:39.320she was never allowed to rule on her own right because it always had to be like a man woman1.00
01:43:44.360or like a woman toddler parent like you had to have a boy that's the thing that's that's the0.99
01:43:50.420that's the whole egyptian thing of they they believed in ultimate balance that was that was
01:43:55.400a major part of of egyptian society everything had to have a balance that's why you had osiris
01:44:00.820in ISIS. You always had to have the male-female balance in everything. So I can kind of understand0.56
01:44:08.460that to a certain point, but she clearly proved herself to be a better leader than those stupid1.00
01:44:13.720little boys. So to make her always be paired up with one, that is sexism on a 100 level that you1.00
01:44:23.240can't just let this intelligent young lady just handle business. You got to put her with this1.00
01:44:27.540snot nose yeah you gotta be like oh you can't just be queen even though you've been doing it
01:44:31.440for years it's like yeah right you need to have like a man with you and by a man i mean your two
01:44:36.200year old brother like right exactly it just yeah so i really say that those two rank the same
01:44:42.620because she she got it from both sides um probably more from the romans but because it was just kind
01:44:50.620of just royal Egyptian history. That's just the way it was done in Egypt, whereas they just kind
01:44:58.980of took it to a whole nother level. But, you know, she was still allowed to learn. She was still
01:45:03.840allowed to learn languages, learn how to read or how to write. They didn't let them really do that
01:45:08.960in Rome. So sexism was on steroids there. So she definitely got it worse from the Romans than she1.00
01:45:16.260did the Egyptians but she she needs to get a serious serious bonus for that one because she1.00
01:45:21.760just had it coming from all sides she did she had and that's what I always think about like0.69
01:45:25.760in this category like it's just specifically sexism but anyone who has so much talent and0.95
01:45:31.800skill and they need to waste their time dealing with this bullshit instead of just like getting0.69
01:45:36.780to go out and excel and what they want to do yeah it's just it comes up time and time again0.99
01:45:42.660And sometimes it's sexism and sometimes it's sexism and also racism.
01:45:46.680And sometimes, you know, it's just like there's so many people who like could be doing great stuff if they didn't have to spend half their life being like, no, I can do this.
01:45:53.820Yep. I think that I've been corporate America since I was 16.
01:51:46.280but it rarely happened throughout history
01:51:48.240where the people that were suffering rose up and said you're not doing a good job we got to get
01:51:53.940rid of you yeah and it's happened so few times successfully that you can list them it's like
01:52:02.000the Haitian revolution like that happened like I'm trying to think there's it's so rare and so
01:52:08.520unusual and I think part of it is like when we're thinking about like an ancient Egypt times like
01:52:12.460you know these farmers were pictured they're like I don't know who the pharaoh is whatever I'm just
01:52:15.640like doing my job it's like they're doing this backbreaking work and they're so tired at the end
01:52:19.080of the day like how are they going to go to a meeting how are they going to like learn they
01:52:24.440have rights how are they going to organize and it's and that benefits the the elites to keep
01:52:30.980them exhausted so that they can't organize and and that's still the case today it is it's happened
01:52:37.280to every society throughout history and you know fine so you don't want to teach about the uprisings
01:52:44.460But, you know, you need to teach about your defeats because your defeats are going to keep happening because you only want to focus on one small area where you might have been in power.
01:53:00.420So good luck to you, because I'm waiting to see what's going to happen in the next 15 years, where if they keep trying, if society keeps trying to suppress this, that and the other.
01:53:13.080You know, who's going to get fed up? Yeah. You know, that was the whole point of the civil rights movement. Black folks got fed up. They had someone that stepped up and said, you know what, let's get this organized. They rallied behind those individuals and they got what they were working for to a certain extent.
01:53:31.420what's going to happen in the next 15 years you guys going to keep trying to suppress society
01:53:35.340well you know in today's world we have way too much information available to us
01:53:39.800back in the day like in ancient egypt they had no information available to them on what was
01:53:44.540happening like i said they were out there working their butts off in those fields and all they
01:53:48.560wanted to do is go home eat go to bed you know and there's no way to like spread information back
01:53:53.240then either it's like there was a newspaper written on a papyrus scroll that you can
01:53:58.740that someone's riding on a horse to bring this stuff to you because they most of them probably
01:54:03.520hadn't even seen horses they all had cattle yeah so it's like you know it's just things happened
01:54:10.000the way they did back then and they probably had to happen that way because just the difference in
01:54:17.860advancements in everything you know that you just didn't have it back then and there weren't as many
01:54:23.500people back then either so you know just in general there's running the human population
01:54:29.760just wasn't as large so people just focused on this is my world that's yeah that's it you know
01:54:36.760it's not like that now but they're trying to make it like that now and that's one thing you're not
01:54:43.240going to be able to go back on because yeah we've got too much available well no and especially i
01:54:47.460think too, so much of it has to do with education. Like Cleopatra, she learned these languages,
01:54:54.400she went out on the streets, like, you know, she saw what was going on and that helped her
01:54:57.580understand things. Versus if somebody's not educated, then they don't know what is happening.
01:55:03.840They don't know that there's other possibilities. They don't know that there's other countries where
01:55:06.740things are different. But now, and so now like the overall standard of education is higher now
01:55:12.060than then. But then you see this stuff where it's like, oh, let's stop teaching this and this and
01:55:15.620this. It's like, you want to keep people ignorant because then they don't know any better.
01:55:19.820But you know, you cannot claim ignorance. Back then they could claim ignorance because the0.64
01:55:23.960information wasn't available. We've got so much information available to us and too many ways to
01:55:28.280get to it. You can't claim ignorance anymore. I mean, show me a 12 year old author that doesn't
01:55:35.200have a damn cell phone. Well, last time I checked, unless your parents just completely locked that0.98
01:55:40.920phone down you're gonna be able to find whatever you want using that cell phone or get on the
01:55:47.160internet on your laptop i mean i don't think there's any parent on this earth that can lock
01:55:51.240their stuff down enough for a kid can't find what they're looking for the point of like let's ban
01:55:55.840books it's like who reads a book at that age anymore they look at what's that gonna do like
01:56:02.680okay they can't get a book but they have their phone like they have the internet
01:56:06.660And I think that that's a major thing to think about when you had downfalls back in the ancient time is they just have lack of information and they have lack of ability to get that information out there.
01:56:22.300So, you know, someone could have heard something about someone five years ago and they haven't heard an update on it since then.
01:56:30.280Well, then all of a sudden they hear that person's name began like, oh, well, they did such and such.
01:56:34.460So I'm going to fight against them. Or they could have completely changed it to somebody completely different five years later. But with that lack of information, lack of ability to get it out there, I think contributed to a lot of losing battles, a lot of not making the right decisions on different political stances on things, because the information just wasn't available.
01:57:02.180it just it just it wasn't possible and so I don't know how much that would have affected Cleopatra
01:57:08.180because she seemed to have a pretty good system of spies to get the information to her however
01:57:14.140it's not like someone could pick up the phone and tell her so if someone was in Rome and they saw
01:57:19.600something happen they write it down on a scroll and it takes five months to get it back to her
01:57:26.040well what's what's happened in that five months since that scroll was written no exactly and
01:57:30.840that's what's so impressive to me about her but i will say about like the others you know julius0.94
01:57:37.460caesar etc and the men like to be able to do a good job of staying on top of your shit when0.86
01:57:45.880it takes months to get information from place to place like yep and and if it was if you were0.99
01:57:53.800landlocked okay fine so put someone on a horse um they get to the next camp they hold hand it off
01:57:59.620someone with a fresh horse to get it to the next but you had you could not get to egypt without
01:58:05.020sailing there so how long did it really take for them to get information about stuff to make
01:58:11.840informed decisions this yeah that would have made that would have made warfare back then
01:58:18.220extremely difficult um because you could never really keep up exactly with what was happening
01:58:23.380with things and in a way you have to feel sorry for them because you know they're trying to they're
01:58:28.840trying to make real-time decisions based on old information and so that's always going to work
01:58:33.860against you and so i think cleopatra as someone in today's world would be the ultimate queen of
01:58:41.720everything yes i think i think if she didn't have well i mean just imagine like if she didn't have0.62
01:58:48.660to deal with like the patriarchy and stuff but if also there wasn't war going on like what would0.62
01:58:54.220she she might have been like a scholar or she might have you know like what would she have done0.88
01:58:57.880if she didn't have to spend all her time just like dealing with Rome like and murderous
01:59:03.560kept her pretty busy that in and of itself is a full-time job no that's true but yeah I agree
01:59:12.800I think if she's around today I think she'd be like CEO but also just like I don't know I agree
01:59:18.600I think she'd be doing all the things and she'd be excelling because if she has this like charisma0.72
01:59:22.380like she's gonna get those investors she's gonna get people to support her she's gonna get people0.69
01:59:27.780to follow her like yeah yeah it would be it would be interesting to be able to bring some people
01:59:33.920from the past to today's world and just have them just automatically caught up with how society
01:59:41.400works today don't be stuck in how things were back then and just see how they would thrive0.99
01:59:46.000because if you could thrive back then good lord oh my god the the like whatever she was what 40
01:59:53.760or something when she died it's just like good job like that's a long time to survive with all
02:00:01.320the stuff she had going on around her i just yeah i can't imagine i can't see anyone else
02:00:06.860in that situation doing any better than she did basically agreed agreed um based on what she had
02:00:14.920to work with the information she got whenever she got it i i honestly don't think anyone could
02:00:21.940have done any better. Yeah. Cleopatra, a real one. Thank you so much, Gina. And I just want
02:00:27.680the listeners to know that you are going to be coming back soon. We're going to be talking
02:00:31.840in another extended Anne and Gina-length episode. It might have a part one, part two. We'll see.
02:00:39.880Oh, I'm down for part three if needed. I'm going to blog off the whole day and we'll just see how
02:00:47.740it goes but yeah we can't say what it's about but yeah it's um it's about one of the things that you
02:00:52.800know a lot about oh and i am greatly looking forward to that conversation i i always love
02:00:57.000geeking out with you it's so much fun and then it's funny and then i post it i'm like oh god
02:01:01.240people listen to that um sorry folks i don't mean to drone on all right thank you thank you so much
02:01:10.480for joining me again and i can't wait until we have our next chat which will be pretty soon until
02:01:14.260next time friend so again if you are just like i love this vibe i love the ann and gina vibe we've
02:01:25.280done two episodes before and the two episodes before are each the length of three episodes
02:01:29.400so we did three hour episodes about nefertiti and also about hedge upset so just scroll back
02:01:34.320through wherever you're listening to the podcast and just find those episodes if you want to hear
02:01:37.880more of gina who is such a star i'm so happy to have her as a regular contributor on the podcast
02:01:43.460as well. So you can keep up with this podcast. I have a substack. It's vulgarhistory.substack.com
02:01:49.520where I talk about actually a little tie-in. I have an essay about Cleopatra on the substack
02:01:54.840this week to tie in with these episodes. And then also I've recently been traveling. I was
02:02:01.680on a trip to Edinburgh, London, and Braunschweig, aka Brunswick, Germany. And if you want to see,
02:02:08.060just learn more about what I saw. I saw so many amazing things. You can keep up with me on my
02:02:14.440Patreon for free. So you can become a free member of my Patreon. So that's a patreon.com
02:02:20.320and foster writer. And that's where I've been posting blogs and vlogs and just lots of responses
02:02:24.740about all the things I've been seeing on my incredible trip, including when I saw
02:02:29.060llamas. So again, patreon.com and foster writer, become a free member to see all my travel posts.
02:02:35.400And then also, once you're there, you can also choose to support the podcast on Patreon