Witches of Scotland - EPISODE 15 - NEW YEARS MINI EPISODE

00:00:00.200 Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell, QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:05.220 I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases,

00:00:08.740 and we're bringing you this podcast because we want to tell you 0.61

00:00:11.580 about the women who were accused, prosecuted, convicted,

00:00:15.720 and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.

00:00:18.780 I'm Zoe Vendetotsi, and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches,

00:00:23.040 and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.

00:00:26.720 The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.

00:00:29.580 Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.

00:00:33.120 Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.

00:00:37.420 And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.

00:00:44.420 Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.

00:00:53.580 Hello and welcome to episode 15 of the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:58.580 Hiya!

00:00:59.180 oh hello hi Claire sorry I was a bit previous there a little bit previous madam we're going

00:01:05.640 to be doing this nice little short podcast today to go along with the little short one we did last

00:01:10.360 week just to keep you interested over the Christmas holiday in this very strange time of ongoing

00:01:17.600 holidayness it feels like in some ways but anyway so today we're going to be talking about a few

00:01:23.280 different issues that have come up in the intervening week and sharing a bit of correspondence

00:01:28.280 from abroad, naming some witches and talking about some future happenings.

00:01:34.420 So how are you, Claire?

00:01:35.740 I'm good. I'm good. I have been looking up, as ever, some people that were killed as witches.

00:01:42.100 And the reason why I say some people is because this week I thought I'd focus on how difficult

00:01:48.700 it is to pin down the number of people and what happened to them by giving us some entries,

00:01:54.860 which we now can't trace much detail of.

00:01:58.280 So, for example, the first people I'll speak about today were in St Andrews in Dundee.

00:02:04.540 Their trial took place in 1569.

00:02:08.560 They were all executed, but they were just described alone in the entry as witches.

00:02:16.680 Literally nothing else, just witches.

00:02:19.460 Literally nothing else.

00:02:21.160 We do not know names, ages, marital status that they recorded.

00:02:27.060 We simply know that on a date in 1569 in St Andrews, witches were executed.

00:02:34.780 So we don't know if it was five, if it was 25. That's the problem.

00:02:39.280 Now, even more bizarre, I suppose, for identifying them,

00:02:42.720 if I move on to the next group, which I found,

00:02:46.200 which we know that they went to trial on the 23rd of July 1590.

00:02:52.840 they went to trial in edinburgh and they were just described as sundry witches

00:02:59.980 i mean that's just bizarre have you come across that listing anywhere else sundry i've never come

00:03:07.200 across sundry witness like all in sundry i've never come across that i have just come across

00:03:12.720 empty spaces i've come across seeing witches or relating people by their occupation or by

00:03:21.260 the name of their husband I have also come across one here I'm looking at just says two witches so

00:03:28.060 at least it gives an identifier of how many people were involved I'll give a further example

00:03:33.200 in Elgin in 1560 there was a trial that took place in relation to witches again it doesn't

00:03:42.120 say how many and it doesn't say what the outcome was so just thought I want to show a couple what

00:03:47.920 the problem really is with them is we can't even put names to them zoe yeah and there's no there's

00:03:52.840 no way presumably of finding out any more than that if that's what there is unless it was mentioned

00:03:57.860 in some other sort of um i mean i don't even know what other notes would they even have where they

00:04:02.660 might have written that down it's not as if there weren't there weren't newspapers as we'd think of

00:04:06.840 them were there so it's not even like you could kind of cross-reference or anything no nothing

00:04:10.940 like that i mean the survey of scottish witchcraft is absolutely the best um course we have and

00:04:17.120 obviously we've spoken about that before but even they they are stumped in these instances they can

00:04:23.840 simply record they can simply record when they know the names of people obviously record those

00:04:28.680 but there are clearly instances that weren't recorded so that's one or two instances of people

00:04:34.800 that were killed as witches that we we simply can't say their names because we don't know what

00:04:40.100 they are. The last one today I thought would be interesting to look at was a person who was a man

00:04:47.120 and indeed a very senior official in Scotland. The Lord himself appears to be Sir William Stuart

00:04:54.320 of Luthrie and having used that tool once again, Wikipedia, I looked up Sir William Stuart of

00:05:02.100 Luthrie and it's said that Sir William Stuart of Luthrie was formerly the Lord Lion King of Arms.

00:05:10.580 He had been in office for only six months when he was taken to the stake and he was burned at the

00:05:17.900 stake in St Andrews on the 16th August 1569 for witchcraft. The charge against him was of sorcery

00:05:25.680 and necromancy. So he was actually accused of witchcraft, but it is said that the charge against

00:05:32.480 Stuart, though nominally witchcraft, was politically motivated due to his opposition to Morrie and his

00:05:39.820 loyalty to Queen Mary of Guise. So there is someone who was executed as a witch under the

00:05:48.240 Witchcraft Act, but it appears, at least it's thought, that what that was for was simply a cover

00:05:54.480 for some politically motivated prosecution.

00:05:58.320 Quite a neat way to get rid of somebody, isn't it?

00:06:00.080 Yeah, as we said before, calling someone a witch

00:06:04.160 and getting rid of them saying they've committed witchcraft

00:06:07.560 would be an easy go-to for someone wanting to exercise their enemies

00:06:13.820 and that's exactly what appears to have happened in this case.

00:06:17.940 So Sir William Stuart of Lothrae, after less than six months in the job,

00:06:22.580 executed for sorcery and necromancy. And do you think, well, he'd been strangled and then his

00:06:29.920 body burnt in the manner of other witches? Yeah, it says that he was burned at the stake. So I

00:06:36.920 imagine that he would have been burned in the same way, namely strangled first and then burned to get 0.89

00:06:41.920 rid of his body. So anyway, another person who suffered a miscarriage of justice by being accused

00:06:48.600 of witchcraft and killed and it appears there underlying that there was a political intent

00:06:55.240 against it so it shows that even at the highest echelons I suppose of society in Scotland the

00:07:01.140 Witchcraft Act was being used as a way to quell opposition. Alrighty so we'll remember those 0.92

00:07:08.460 people in so far as we can who were convicted under the Witchcraft Act so are we reflections

00:07:13.780 Zoe I suppose on the year that we've had we've had an incredible amount of support from people

00:07:19.820 all over the world haven't we? Oh yes it's been fantastic you've listed before all the different

00:07:24.760 countries that have been in touch with us we've had a fair few followers from North America and

00:07:30.620 I want to read out some of a letter that was sent to us from a listener in Newfoundland whose name

00:07:38.180 is maureen many and she sent us a letter really fascinating letter that we both found really quite

00:07:46.260 moving didn't we claire yeah it's about her past so i'm going to read some of the letter out to you

00:07:51.960 she wrote to claire i'm following a relative of hers mrs many in lauder who sent her a copy of

00:07:58.200 the article about the scottish witch hunts claire had been i think interviewed for and about the

00:08:03.080 campaign sort of more broadly so she reached out to get in touch with Claire because she found it

00:08:08.320 really very interesting so she said I applaud your interest and would like to join the group

00:08:13.440 fighting for the memory of these women and then Maureen Menny went on to introduce herself now

00:08:18.000 what's interesting well one of the things interesting about this is that she is actually

00:08:21.680 Scottish she is originally from Aberdeen born in Fivey and her husband and herself moved to St

00:08:28.180 Johns in Newfoundland in Canada in 1968 with two young daughters when her husband Ian was asked to

00:08:34.520 be a professor of physics at Memorial University of Newfoundland in Labrador. They were supposed

00:08:38.960 to stay for two years but they stayed on for good from then and then basically when she was in

00:08:44.980 Scotland before she got married she worked as an assistant librarian in King's College Library

00:08:50.660 University of Aberdeen in research for European libraries in three languages. However as was quite

00:08:56.300 common then she was dismissed in 1961 as she had married and might become quote pwp and therefore

00:09:03.480 unsightly what does pwp mean pregnant i don't know pregnancy related thing yeah it clearly

00:09:10.580 has to do with the fact that she's pregnant but i i don't know if any of our listeners know

00:09:14.600 what pwp was please do let us know it's obviously some phraseology i don't know and so she was told

00:09:23.200 to leave within three months of marriage and there was no recourse in those days to fight for library

00:09:27.960 personnel so this is mrs mary speaking i did not have children for five years now i am 80 feisty

00:09:34.440 fiery and love learning according to my daughters fighting causes all my life my late husband was

00:09:40.260 very much feminist and joined me in battles for people's rights to get to the subject of the

00:09:44.880 article i became a student again last year at grenfell college in corner brook and joined a

00:09:49.500 third year class in history. The topic was the European witch hunts of 1400-1600. I found the

00:09:55.880 topic fascinating and horrifying at the same time. I was blessed with a wonderful professor, Edwin

00:10:00.940 Bedzina, a specialist in this area. After the novelty of my being 80 in a class of very much

00:10:06.080 younger students, they began to ask me about being a young woman, as we had coffee after a three-hour

00:10:10.740 lecture, and they were amazed at the nonsense women of my age had to endure, as they thought

00:10:15.460 misogyny in all its forms was really a thing of the past and that the witch hunts were just history 0.93

00:10:20.480 I told them in no uncertain terms that the misogyny of the state church business and health

00:10:25.560 still lurks the only difference being women are not burned at the stake she says that she slaved 0.91

00:10:31.180 over three papers for that course having been out of formal classes since retiring as a school

00:10:35.400 librarian in 1992 her main paper was the north berwick witch trials and the attitude behavior

00:10:41.020 and cruelty of james the first and the sixth writing that paper made me furious and i wish

00:10:46.200 then and now that i could write the wrong i'd also read many papers from authors on the witch

00:10:50.280 hunts of germany france eastern europe as well as canada and america and i'm horrified that the

00:10:55.240 church made rules as it sought more power whatever the denomination the old and rising again views

00:11:00.520 still thrives blame the other people that do not look live or worship like us let's attack the 0.66

00:11:05.860 women we have to bring past times to the attention of modern populations men and women to prevent it

00:11:10.940 happening again and she goes on to talk about having had some experience with the small town

00:11:16.020 that she lives in where Syrian refugee families were they helped them to get out of the camps in

00:11:20.940 Jordan and settle there and she says there's stories of rampant misogyny and violence against

00:11:25.500 those women and it just stopped short of hunting them down so she is very much sort of cogent as

00:11:31.340 we are about the fact that women have not reached parity and this is still an issue and if we don't

00:11:37.020 deal with the past how on earth can we sort of move on to the future so it's really it's very

00:11:42.380 nice to hear from a listener like that isn't it Claire means a lot to us yeah I mean I was I was

00:11:48.060 so struck with the fact that first of all she had that connection with Scotland that someone in

00:11:52.600 Scotland had been reading about it and had sent it across to her sent the actual article across to

00:11:58.220 her and she was recalling her days I think she was born in 1939 I did read that in a strangely

00:12:04.140 sort of censoring way to protect her age and then of course she goes on to say that she's 80 but yes

00:12:08.800 it was 99. I think she's probably and rightly so quite proud of her age. Yes exactly. Yes so she

00:12:15.280 wrote to us and I was just delighted and in fact I should say we're now in correspondence with Mrs

00:12:19.960 Menny. We've had another email from us and of course we've obtained her authority to read out

00:12:24.660 her letter so we wouldn't have read anything out without having checked with her first. She was

00:12:28.820 delighted to be involved what really struck me was the views of the young people around her that

00:12:35.420 were so amazed by the stories and she's told us more stories since then as you know Zoe but

00:12:40.260 the stories of being a young woman trying to gain parity with men in the 60s trying to have a job

00:12:49.200 and stuff like that and the young people were just absolutely amazed that this was her story

00:12:55.800 and that she was still here doing her stuff and learning with them and I think certainly from the

00:13:01.760 letter it seems that it really brought home to the students that they were just a blink of the eye 0.67

00:13:06.700 away from those circumstances that prevailed where women were so dreadfully second hand.

00:13:13.400 Yeah it's quite interesting because that has been the little bit of negativity that we've had has

00:13:18.280 been from some people saying you know just let it go these are this is in the past it's got no

00:13:23.680 relevance to today's society but i think it does and i know we've touched on this a couple of times

00:13:28.260 in the past with different guests but just the fact that the use of the phrase witch hunt is

00:13:33.740 still employed now it's such a strong shorthand i think it's used incorrectly almost every single

00:13:39.840 time i've seen it certainly on twitter where people say that they're the victim of a witch

00:13:43.280 hunt but really that people are often quite perfectly correct in their criticism from my

00:13:47.980 my point of view the underlying idea of saying this is a witch hunt means I am being wrongly

00:13:53.940 accused of something but sadly it's repurposed by so many people who are being properly accused of

00:13:59.340 things yeah yeah they're just really annoying I mean not that I would recommend that they are

00:14:04.880 strangled and burned at the stake obviously that would be taking it too far but I do think that

00:14:09.640 people should think a little bit before they use the phrase witch hunt because it's not

00:14:13.740 it's not actually accurate from what i can see generally well i think the use of phraseology

00:14:19.260 is so important i told you that i was going to try and stop using phrases like old wives tales

00:14:24.480 did i zoe yeah i tried to also not use that phrase since you said it to me actually yeah

00:14:30.200 old wives tales seem dismissive or use it in a way which subverts the the popular meaning of it

00:14:36.020 and see how people react to it you know if someone says oh i'm using this poultice i don't know

00:14:42.780 whether this will work or not you say oh that's an old wife's tale it's probably right i don't know

00:14:47.060 people use poultices nowadays no they actually do my 15 year old daughter who's a little bit on the

00:14:53.060 witchy side i would say she believes in manifesting and told me the other week like jokingly that that

00:14:58.060 she was about to go 5d i'm not really sure what that meant i think it was something that had been

00:15:01.980 on instagram but she was saying to my husband he said uh he had a scalp in his finger and which is

00:15:08.000 a splinter for those of you out with scotland and lola my daughter who's 15 said to him oh you need

00:15:13.860 to do this and sort of talked to him basically through using a poultice and i was kind of like

00:15:18.440 where on earth did you get that from but she probably follows some sort of old wives tale

00:15:23.020 accounts on instagram that talk you through folk remedies which is better spoken about with the

00:15:28.480 tweezers probably and did it did it go well is the dream of the story that he's still with us

00:15:34.760 and hasn't got blood poisoning.

00:15:36.560 Sadly, he's dead.

00:15:38.200 So Miss Mabee's not...

00:15:39.620 He's not dead.

00:15:43.280 It wouldn't be the scalp that would get him anyway,

00:15:45.160 it would be me.

00:15:45.600 But that's a different story.

00:15:49.700 Oh dear, oh dear.

00:15:51.260 Quickly, moving on. 1.00

00:15:52.620 Oh, Mabee is a wick! 1.00

00:15:54.640 We want to thank Mrs Mary 1.00

00:15:56.360 and we're going to try and get her

00:15:58.040 to be able to hear this on a podcast.

00:16:01.040 So we're going to try and send it across to her

00:16:02.520 and hopefully she'll be able to get this going.

00:16:04.760 So thank you, Mrs Many, from the other women of Scotland here.

00:16:09.020 And we very much appreciate that you're part of the campaign to rid Scotland of its history of witches and bring them back to being women again.

00:16:18.840 We also have been contacted by another lawyer, Zoe, and that is a lawyer who you may, if you've seen some of our social media stuff, 0.99

00:16:29.300 She is a fantastic singer and musician, and she has written a song called The Witches of Bergarin about the Paisley witch hunt.

00:16:39.180 We will re-link her video for this.

00:16:42.640 The name of our band are Okulians, and they are singing with her in this video.

00:16:48.440 And what she does is recall the story of the woman who were convicted in the Paisley witch trials.

00:16:55.140 And I know Julia Campanelli has already liked it.

00:16:58.760 she's already listened to it so hopefully those in paisley who are particularly involved with it

00:17:03.820 will also give it a listen but we would we would say to everyone to give it a listen because it's

00:17:08.080 a really really haunting song it's a great tune and it's got one of the most evocative phrases

00:17:13.760 i think that i've heard in the whole witch trials which is someone explaining may the devil

00:17:19.500 harm your soul through hell i think that's the the right phrase harl is presumably a a word for

00:17:25.860 hurl I think are just another way of expressing hurl but it's a great tune did you enjoy it Zoe?

00:17:31.900 Yes I thought it was very evocative and it's interesting to see other people's responses

00:17:38.800 creative responses to the different the different stories within the witch trials. Yeah I think

00:17:45.360 that's something that we'd like to explore more in 2021 is people's artistic responses to this

00:17:53.260 because all the memorials that are currently up

00:17:56.800 and all the stories that are keeping people alive

00:17:59.940 have been done at a local level.

00:18:02.360 You know, it's people themselves hearing the story

00:18:04.380 and becoming affected by it in a way

00:18:07.180 that they want to creatively express how they feel about it.

00:18:11.200 And I think that this song is a perfect example.

00:18:14.680 I have spoken to Sharon, who is also a lawyer as it happens,

00:18:18.320 and she with me is filled with the feeling of injustice

00:18:22.360 of what happened to these women and she very luckily and creatively is able to put that into

00:18:28.000 a format which is musical sadly for me that's that's not one of my creative abilities one of

00:18:33.840 my many lack of creative abilities but Claire where's your growth mindset on that this could

00:18:39.820 be 2021 could be the year that you break into your musical career you're just not a musician

00:18:46.580 yet i i think the world has enough to deal with with a global pandemic without me deciding that

00:18:52.880 this is the year that i start to fill it with song i think i'm much better and have been in fact i

00:18:59.000 don't know if you have yet so i've been doing my embroidery on my memorial spoon and not yet well

00:19:06.580 i've realized that the idea that i had to be a great sewer is also something which we're going

00:19:12.780 to have to give up and forget about so maybe this is the year that I just go through different

00:19:17.200 creative arts and remind myself why I can't do them okay well you know we'll we'll go through

00:19:23.700 that journey together and we should maybe create some sort of art that would go alongside our

00:19:27.980 podcast we could do that I'm thinking that if we put some sort of art next to our podcast people

00:19:33.720 would think that we weren't being serious certainly me for sure true okay well maybe just keep it to

00:19:40.100 the words then all righty okay so we have uh next week hopefully if our timings can meet up

00:19:47.360 we have douglas spear coming to speak to us can you tell us a wee bit about douglas

00:19:52.100 now douglas is an archaeologist and those eagle ears can we say eagle ear does it only eagle eye

00:19:58.680 do eagles have ears yeah right very high up and they can hear a rustle or a squeak

00:20:03.220 is that true i think so okay i like i like the thought of that i'm really hoping there isn't

00:20:11.900 anyone out there fax checking us because i think this week's podcast is perhaps going to

00:20:16.680 i think i think we're possibly we're we're moving towards the insanity of this stage

00:20:22.420 of uh the christmas experience i think plus lockdown anyway anyway those of you that have

00:20:28.720 been paying close attention which is really what i'm trying to say will have heard us i think talk

00:20:33.060 about douglas spears a little bit maybe in the past with reference to lilius ade down in curus

00:20:38.660 because he is the archaeologist that has been very very involved with that from the get-go the recent

00:20:45.540 years of finding where lilius was buried and being very very involved with kate stewart and with the

00:20:52.920 whole movement down there in curus he's a really fascinating guy that knows absolutely tons

00:20:57.400 obviously about this so I'm really quite keen to speak to him and find out what his process was

00:21:03.460 and his take on different angles on it yeah can we give a shout out just now see if anyone has

00:21:08.780 a particular question that you'd like us to ask Douglas oh yeah yeah please do get in contact

00:21:15.640 with us on the socials or by email and let us know my particular question really I want to know

00:21:22.740 about the man who hired the grave robbers to bring into her grave i want to know about him

00:21:31.700 and i want to know about the provenance of the items that were taken from the grave and how far

00:21:38.120 douglas has got with that so i want to know about those areas but is there anything in particular

00:21:43.600 you want us to ask douglas about lilius edie because we have what's probably one of the world

00:21:51.180 authorities on her if there's any questions you want to ask now is the time to get in contact with

00:21:56.140 us before we record with him if our schedule can't work for this week we'll probably record with him

00:22:01.860 the week after we're just trying to work out with him just now when would be best to do that but

00:22:06.620 contact us and let us know is there something in particular you would like to ask Douglas

00:22:10.720 about Lilith or perhaps about her accuser as well whether or not you want to know more about the

00:22:17.500 people surrounding the accusations against Elias at that time he might be able to shed more light

00:22:22.540 on that. Yeah I'm quite curious to find out if there are any other archaeological issues or

00:22:28.920 anything else that he's discovered or found in Fife to do with witches if there's anything else

00:22:34.240 he's been involved with that he could tell us about as well. Oh that ties in with Douglas and

00:22:39.020 Kate. Kate was going to speak to Douglas about where maybe to bury or perhaps bury properly for

00:22:44.660 the first time alias ade so perhaps we could ask him about that because i think that would be in

00:22:49.820 fife that might be a whole new monument to a woman accused as a witch so what we've what we've got

00:22:57.300 planned in 2021 zoe for the witches of scotland well we've got plans to have the witches pardoned

00:23:04.520 and apology and immemorial that's all we're going to achieve this year that's the plan that's the

00:23:09.620 plan i know i mean as you know last year we started an international women's day last year

00:23:14.880 to sort of raise publicity of what we wanted and the pandemic shut us down it appears unfortunately

00:23:20.740 that the pandemic might be shutting us down again not the podcast but are putting our plans in

00:23:27.240 motion quickly at the start of the year but what we are going to do is we're going to start reaching

00:23:31.820 out to politicians civic groups women groups and we're going to start speaking to them about the

00:23:41.740 petition to parliament because we want to talk to as many people about it as possible beforehand so

00:23:46.880 we'd also do a shout out if there are any groups out there women's groups not necessarily women's

00:23:53.360 groups but it's certainly a predominantly women that are listening to the podcast but if there

00:23:57.960 women's groups out there or if you're part of a society that you think might be involved in

00:24:02.500 getting behind the petition putting its support to it and also if you are politically involved

00:24:08.240 if you are or you know a politician or involved in local politics in some way please do get in

00:24:14.120 contact with us because the more people we have behind the campaign the more likelihood of success

00:24:20.120 so if you are in any way politically affiliated or indeed you just want to a lot of people have

00:24:26.000 offered their time to assist us with it and I think that will come later in the process when

00:24:32.440 we are practically campaigning but at the moment what we're trying to do is assemble people together

00:24:37.340 who are like-minded in their wish for a pardon for these people so if you're listening to this

00:24:43.700 and you think I'd like to be involved do contact us do contact the podcast witchesofscotland.com

00:24:49.840 sign up to that contact us on instagram contact us on twitter and 2021 is the year i think we

00:24:57.940 really get things moving in a practical sense we've now built up lots of people we've got

00:25:03.140 thousands of people listening to the podcast and it's now time that we move on i suppose to the

00:25:08.960 next level of our campaign which is engagement at a political level sounds good to me let's just

00:25:16.580 pencil that in for later on in the year all right so uh i think we'll just wish everybody

00:25:25.100 now as we probably should have at the outset wish everyone a happy new year oh yes yes that's quite

00:25:30.560 important happy new year everybody let's hope that 2021 is a year where dreams will be fulfilled

00:25:37.420 or at least you know a long weekend away somewhere that's not my house that'd be nice

00:25:43.540 so that's just pardoning all the witches and a long weekend you don't ask for much so

00:25:47.880 no a little bit of sunshine trying to sneak in something else okay

00:25:51.080 okay uh we look forward to speaking to you when our podcast with experts will be back in action

00:25:58.960 next week so we look forward to speaking to you next sunday thanks very much everybody bye

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00:26:24.400 us on Twitter, Facebook

00:26:26.280 and Instagram.

00:26:33.160 It says that

00:26:34.220 Sir William Stuart of Luttery,

00:26:36.180 the Lord Lion King of

00:26:38.260 Arms... Do you think this is where

00:26:40.060 the Lion King, the film, got its original

00:26:42.220 idea from it's possible it's possible it's possible just a massive metaphor for people

00:26:51.640 executed for witchcraft it's possible let's look that up by watching lots of disney in the next

00:26:57.080 couple of couple of weeks

Witches of Scotland - January 03, 2021

EPISODE 15 - NEW YEARS MINI EPISODE

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