Witches of Scotland - EPISODE 76 DR MARGARET BENNETT

00:00:00.960 I am Clare Mitchell, Doctor of Laws and King's Council.

00:00:04.080 And I am Zoe Vendetotsi, Doctor of Laws, Teacher and Writer.

00:00:07.760 On the 8th of March 2020, International Women's Day,

00:00:11.120 we launched the Feminist Witches of Scotland campaign.

00:00:13.920 The Witchcraft Act, enforced between 1563 and 1736,

00:00:19.360 saw thousands of people, mostly women,

00:00:22.080 accused and executed as witches in Scotland

00:00:25.040 in the country's biggest and most brutal miscarriage of justice.

00:00:28.880 Our campaign had three aims. To get a formal state apology for those accused of witchcraft,

00:00:34.640 to obtain a pardon for all those convicted and to get a national memorial to remember

00:00:39.360 those involved in the Witchcraft Act. On International Women's Day 2022, the first

00:00:45.040 of our aims was realised when First Minister Nicola Sturgeon issued a formal state apology

00:00:49.600 to those accused as witches. The first formal state apology ever. We are currently working

00:00:54.400 with politicians to ensure there's legislation passed to pardon those accused as witches

00:00:58.960 to change their status from convicted witches to those who ought never to have been prosecuted

00:01:04.160 we continue our work to obtain a national monument so those who suffered will never be forgotten

00:01:09.120 join us as we speak to the experts on the witchcraft trials both here in scotland and further

00:01:13.760 abroad as we explore the history of women in scotland and continue the cultural conversation

00:01:18.800 of what it means to be a woman.

00:01:26.560 Hello and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:01:30.080 Somewhat ridiculously, this is now episode 76 of six.

00:01:38.480 Luckily, it's no longer poor David that shackles this,

00:01:41.040 now it's poor Lola.

00:01:42.320 But this is a great amount of podcast episodes, Claire.

00:01:46.520 Yes.

00:01:46.800 yeah what I really love when you see that 76 is the real strong enthusiasm that's coming through

00:01:53.020 I am nothing if not committed it's the energy fancy footwork that's me so today though we have

00:02:01.340 actually got a belter of a guest and I have to apologize from the get-go because it's just me

00:02:07.380 talking to our guest today because it was an event that I did at Burnham Book Festival just at the

00:02:12.880 end of last year round about sort of halloween time and because our schedule's been completely

00:02:17.260 insane that's why we're releasing it now so it's just me that's speaking to our guest um but you

00:02:22.640 know i tried to be like claire i tried to feel it how do you try and be like me what what what

00:02:27.760 facets do you bring out the giggling i know i was very legal there was a lot of chats um i was

00:02:34.100 actually very serious as if i said my lady and my lud as much as i could i felt that was a good

00:02:40.720 approximation absolutely i'm never away as you know from addressing everybody as my lady and

00:02:45.160 my lund but let the record reflect that i did try my best okay anyway so claire claire

00:02:54.040 do you have any news

00:02:57.360 oh my god that was a bit that was a bit sharp but it's because i'm a bit over excited so i am a

00:03:08.020 You are excited. What is your news today?

00:03:11.600 What isn't in the news, Zoe, is the question we really have to ask.

00:03:14.900 Okay, so since the tartan episode where we explained that we had commissioned Claire at Prickley Thistle to make along with us, to design along with us, a Witch of Scotland tartan, the world has gone mad for it.

00:03:35.800 i think that's just the that's just the technical term for it it's not actually an exaggeration

00:03:41.880 i mean we we released we're both holding our head in our hands at this we we released the the

00:03:48.760 kickstarter with the first um selection of things so it was a scarf and the a4 piece and the throw

00:03:55.160 thinking you know we'll be delighted if we get these sold we'll set a 5 000 pound target because

00:04:01.460 that means that there's enough that's coming in that claire can then make some of them even if

00:04:05.520 we don't sell all of it so we kind of press go on that one i pressed it at something like 20 past

00:04:11.020 seven while i was eating my porridge yes scots do eat porridge for their breakfast and within 45

00:04:17.320 minutes we'd sold out like we'd got to the 5 000 pound like aim that we had so claire and i were

00:04:25.580 phoning each other going what what within 45 minutes and then insanely within 12 hours

00:04:32.440 everything had gone so we did panic stations to claire up in inverness at prickly thistle and

00:04:38.500 said claire claire what can we do about this and claire said don't worry girls she's got she's very

00:04:43.000 she was the calm head of tartan production she was like calm yourselves you'd want her in charge

00:04:49.440 i'll tell you so she said we can do another run of the same amount so the first lot will be ready

00:04:56.540 in which month claire the first month will be ready end of april start of may and then the

00:05:03.560 second lot because of course this isn't fast fashion this is a small operation that's making

00:05:10.140 proper tartan from scratch so it's it's a not a big quick operation it's a big long operation

00:05:17.300 so the second bunch will be ready in july i think it's july we're hoping july i got a very

00:05:26.000 quick crash course into what it is to have a successful kickstarter now i have to say again

00:05:31.020 for the record and it's going to sound like a stock record at this point it's just me and claire

00:05:36.420 there's no backroom team there's no marketing team there's no intern it's me and claire right so all

00:05:44.160 the emails all the socials so we were answering things on tiktok instagram twitter facebook

00:05:50.820 messenger and our facebook wall plus i was getting all the emails because it was my email address

00:05:57.180 that was used for the kickstarter plus people were also emailing the witches scotland web

00:06:01.940 website which we don't use and we're switching over it's it's been wild so we were getting and

00:06:07.420 whatsapp so we were getting very very bombarded heavily while still going about our actual jobs

00:06:13.840 so remember i'm a teacher so i'm in class all day and claire is a lawyer so she's in court all day

00:06:18.600 and it's just been absolutely crazy so we've had people all over the world saying to us

00:06:23.720 um i've missed out how can i get more so all we can say to you just now is keep watching our

00:06:28.800 socials because that's where we'll release what we're going to do next as we work out what we're

00:06:33.400 doing as two sort of unwitting now it seems to be tartaneers as claire's coined the term

00:06:38.900 we we have become unwitting tartaneers um and you know unwitting with the emphasis on wit 0.99

00:06:47.520 we're not having very much of that and so you're seeing in real time too women crash coursing in 0.80

00:06:53.580 how to how to run something when something becomes when people become globally interested 1.00

00:07:00.100 in it but here's the important thing see if we don't get back to you i haven't got back to you

00:07:03.920 we're really really sorry there's hundreds of emails incoming and we are trying to respond

00:07:10.520 to everything we can if you're really keen on some particular issue or idea and haven't been

00:07:16.340 able to contact us try again because maybe if you try again we'll be able to spot it but there is

00:07:21.520 there is no tartan kicking about in a back room somewhere that we're just not releasing

00:07:26.900 it doesn't exist yet they haven't even started weaving it yet and because Claire Campbell does 0.73

00:07:32.940 like a zero waste everything is accounted for there's no like off cuts or anything like that

00:07:38.300 everything she does is is complete and in itself but let me tell you they have um we have been

00:07:46.440 told by claire that she's ordered three quarters of a ton of threads so he's just shaking her head

00:07:54.260 at the very idea that we are ready she is ready to go to loom that will be happening very soon

00:08:00.380 we will keep you updated on our socials when we actually see can you imagine actually see it being

00:08:06.180 printed no not printed i think on the kickstarter page as well so all the people that have bought

00:08:13.800 things i think this is what's happening claire is going to upload video and photographs of the

00:08:19.280 process too so that if you've made a pledge that it'll be followed on there so i mean it's it's 0.88

00:08:24.500 wild bear with us we're we're just trying the best two innocent women as we always see zoe

00:08:30.880 we always try and get in the word innocent as well just you know for for any future trials 0.86

00:08:36.300 and we just want to also say that people are asking us constantly will there be more tartan

00:08:42.500 the answer is yes yeah but it's not a fast process Claire has to make sure all her looms are running

00:08:51.060 and there will be more before the end of the year so stay on the socials and we will let you know

00:08:57.460 when the next lot is coming we're also trying to work out um how we get you kilts which a lot of

00:09:04.440 people have asked for that work is ongoing at the moment and we're arranging that so kilts will be

00:09:09.720 coming we'll be discussing bolts and threads and how we decide to go ahead with that at a later

00:09:16.040 stage but um that yes there will be more tartan we just need to say as well that um we have noticed

00:09:23.740 we'd already seen ourselves but a couple of people have got in touch just to say that there

00:09:27.640 are some what i'm going to call rip-off items on speakers like etsy so we're trying to kind of

00:09:33.420 raise a complaint about that so just to be super super clear about this we witches of scotland

00:09:39.300 have the copyright and the patent on this tartan so if you see somebody else producing it elsewhere

00:09:45.380 it's not us that's doing it it's not it's not okay right it's not so we are and we're doing

00:09:51.260 that very very deliberately so that we can have the tartan made by claire's company in the highlands

00:09:57.600 by her team of 15 14 of who are women so that that is kept in business and that we're doing our bit

00:10:04.060 for that one because we really like her ethics and the way that she does things we want it to

00:10:08.060 be made in scotland so if you see it elsewhere and we're not making it then it's fake basically

00:10:13.060 also yeah let us know please do let us know because we will complain about it because

00:10:17.760 you know this this really protect this we want to make sure that this is something that's that's

00:10:22.700 looked after um and that it doesn't get you know get used by other people or something but we'll

00:10:28.400 update more on that we do we plan to do different things but i mean obviously these things all take

00:10:34.000 time and we need to work out what we're doing okay claire any other news nah would that that

00:10:43.120 were true Claire the next piece of news okay the next piece of news is the book is coming out on

00:10:51.100 the 15th of May 2025 I'm looking because have I said the wrong date no that's correct and you

00:11:00.100 might have just seen a look of horror pass over my face Claire because it's less than two months

00:11:04.880 and there's just so much to do I'm feeling slightly overwhelmed I have to be honest I

00:11:10.100 could do with like a therapist or something at this stage but um we are we're going to be doing

00:11:14.640 lots of different events and there are different ways in which people can pre-order the book aren't

00:11:20.360 there clear yeah so we are doing events and we've got lots of them in the diary and we have to make

00:11:27.800 sure that we can do all of them and they all work out with our work schedules so we are doing those

00:11:35.140 one we do have confirmed close to our own home zoe is the dundee literary festival from the 12th

00:11:41.180 to the 14th of june from the 14th to the 16th of june are you doing an extra couple of days

00:11:47.560 beforehand you probably are you probably committed us to doing some sort of bloody 0.97

00:11:52.520 fucking excuse my language dinner sort of show cabaret for two days beforehand claire 0.94

00:11:59.220 please tell me you've not organized anything i know i think i think zoe is at this stage every 0.98

00:12:03.940 One time I picked up the phone to Zoe and she was like, what now?

00:12:07.500 I was like, what are we doing now? Honestly.

00:12:11.420 So it's the 14th. Hang on. Is it the 14th to 16th?

00:12:15.820 You see, you see, this is why Zoe, we're not great at these sorts of things.

00:12:19.980 The Dundee Literally Festival is coming up soon, ladies and gentlemen.

00:12:23.720 It's definitely mid-June. It's definitely mid-June.

00:12:26.120 My friend Anna Day that runs it is going to maybe strangle me for mangling this so badly.

00:12:30.960 Oh, my God. That's April. Hang on.

00:12:33.940 june june june june right so it's from i think the 13th maybe to the 15th or 16th it's that

00:12:41.260 weekend anyway so we'll we'll update with correct dates it's definitely that weekend is 100 definitely

00:12:49.120 that weekend so we we're doing that in dundee which we're really excited to it because it's

00:12:53.100 kind of like our home turf in many ways because it's where claire and i started the campaign from

00:12:57.600 i still live near there claire sometimes still lives near there so it's it's really it's where

00:13:02.660 a lot of our friends and family are so that would be a really nice one but there's lots of them if

00:13:07.420 there's an area if you're somewhere and you'd like us to come and do an event let us know because

00:13:13.240 we've got some in London we've got ones in Glasgow and Edinburgh I think Inverness near Dundee we've

00:13:21.320 got some in Fife but we don't really have anything sort of out with London and England and I think

00:13:27.280 that we maybe need to see if anybody wants us to come and see them there so if you do give us a

00:13:32.060 out because it'd be really nice. You'd imagine somewhere like Pendle or something like that.

00:13:35.500 Yeah, I would have thought so. And I'm from Lancashire originally. I don't go on about that.

00:13:39.960 Lancashire lass. I lived there five years. Listen, hang on, your code switching so fast. At the start

00:13:45.260 of this, you were a Scot eating porridge. Listen, I'm modern. Modern. No, baby. International. I'm

00:13:51.940 just a lady. The other things about the book we need to tell you is the book is available in

00:13:58.260 deep intake of breath it is available um in the uk the us canada australia new zealand and we're

00:14:09.560 told by our publishers if you want it in europe then you have to go to your local bookstore

00:14:14.500 and ask them to order it from hachette hachette are a huge european um group and they are the

00:14:23.160 publishers the overarching publishers of our book octopus is the the local um sort of uh

00:14:29.040 yeah they're our publisher in london but they're part of a bigger company called hashed so if you

00:14:34.640 want it in europe go to your local bookseller and ask for hash ask for your bookseller to get it

00:14:40.120 from hashed now one thing we should say that in america it's a it's a different book okay so it's

00:14:46.120 coming out later it's coming out in october we don't have an actual date for that but we'll let

00:14:50.580 you know as soon as we know so the book's got a slightly different title and it's a slightly

00:14:54.260 different book because it's a different market but we'll keep you up to date with that one and

00:14:58.580 there is one special aspect that we're hoping about the american one isn't there claire yes we

00:15:04.320 are hoping as well to get the tartan on the outside of it the outside cask as it's called

00:15:10.100 we're working on that with publishers i just really love the idea of being able to take off

00:15:14.120 that top paper bit of the book and to carry around the tartan so people can see the tartan

00:15:19.860 and you'll be able to be in a bookstore or in a cafe or something people like you know

00:15:23.860 i know what book she's reading i so love that idea zoe um the last thing we should talk about

00:15:30.380 is porty oh yes portobello bookshop in portobello in edinburgh claire yes yes really really nice

00:15:39.760 bookshop i did an event there with marie kid where i interviewed her a couple years ago

00:15:43.360 and they are the nicest staff they've got it's such a beautiful shop inside as well

00:15:47.860 and they have just got a really really great selection it's a it's a fabulous shop if you've

00:15:52.460 not been there before and you're anywhere near it it's definitely definitely worth going to

00:15:56.060 but not only if you're near it you can also order can't you claire yes you can order dedicated and

00:16:03.560 signed books by us at porty we've put a link on all our socials so if you go on linktree i think

00:16:11.760 the porty ones up at the top that's the the dedicated and signed ones or you can order from

00:16:16.440 any of the other places below as well but we've already had an amazing response from

00:16:21.380 porty so much so that they've already restocked the amount that they've got once so if they do

00:16:26.960 sell out which they did once they will just restock it so try again it's fantastic okay

00:16:32.400 now is there any news that's not about you and me claire i don't know listen to any news that's

00:16:38.380 not about us so clear terrible things will happen to women around the world fairly normal service

00:16:44.440 will resume with our next podcast episode but we just had so much that we had to get out because

00:16:49.500 we've had so many questions so without any further ado claire what's the next part of the podcast

00:16:55.480 the next part of the podcast is women not witches and what we want to do is we want to remember

00:17:03.100 groups of people that were accused as witches now what we thought i'd do zoe is i'd go into

00:17:09.920 the Witches of Scotland. Witches of Scotland? We've not taken over that. I've gone to the

00:17:14.580 Survey of Scottish Witchcraft and have a look at the names of some of the people who are executed

00:17:20.780 as witches or accused of witchcraft in the area where Clare's business is, where Prickly Thistle's

00:17:28.760 business is. So what I want to do first is just to read out the names of those people and then

00:17:34.340 I'm going to tell you a story about one of them very briefly. The names are Lachlan Rattray,

00:17:39.160 George Rattray, someone McQuicken, unknown McQuicken it's called, unknown McRory, they've

00:17:46.180 only got the surname again, Agnes Stewart, Mary Innes, Muir Roy, Margaret Vane, Mo Nain

00:17:54.040 Doe McIver and Beek Homass. I've never heard of a name such as Beek Homass before, but

00:18:02.440 that is what people say. Sorry? That's an amazing array of names.

00:18:08.120 It is, it is. Sadly, we know very, very little about that other than the name which appears in the list in the survey. We don't know any more than that, which is a great shame.

00:18:20.860 But one of the ones that we do know a wee bit more about, but only ever so slightly more, is Lachlan Rattery. We know that Lachlan Rattery was involved in a trial at the same time as George Rattery.

00:18:37.820 they appear to have been related to one another.

00:18:41.860 The trial says that it took place in Inverness, on the presbytery of Inverness itself,

00:18:48.300 and annoyingly, as ever, Zoe, it has not recorded what was the outcome of the trial.

00:18:56.480 Similarly, there is no information recorded about other issues

00:19:02.920 for the unknown McCrory or the unknown McQuicken.

00:19:08.600 Mary Innes, however, we have a little more information about in relation to what it was said that she had done.

00:19:19.980 She was said to have been involved in witchcraft trials and that she had been involved in magic.

00:19:28.800 Now, when I say magic, of course, the ideas of witchcraft had sorcery and they had necromancy. 0.98

00:19:34.820 So she was involved in sorcery.

00:19:36.760 the date of her case was the 30th of the 9th 1696 and sadly although we know that there were one

00:19:46.600 two three four five six seven commissioners one of them called mcdonald and seven of them with

00:19:52.580 the surname mcleod we sadly do not know the outcome of that trial so those are some of the

00:19:58.740 people in the local area where clear works in prickly thistle who were accused of witchcraft

00:20:03.420 and sadly history records very little of what happened to them other than their name thanks for

00:20:09.400 that claire now where our interesting fabulous guest today is one of scotland i mean i want to

00:20:16.060 say like the most famous and well-known scottish folklorist who's dr margaret bennett i was absolutely

00:20:24.300 delighted to speak to her at the burn and book festival so this is quite a nice kind of barely

00:20:30.260 organic chat that's just generally about witches and things that margaret and i just touched on so

00:20:37.340 i hope that you enjoy this nice relaxed chat so now i'm going to introduce dr margaret bennett

00:20:42.920 i would say one thing there's a strange ghostly bit of music that comes in and out through the

00:20:49.340 whole recording it's recorded live in front of an audience and i wasn't aware of there being any

00:20:53.760 music when we were doing the chat but i can hear it now on the recording it could be in my mind so

00:20:59.380 if you can't hear it the problem is probably with me rather than with you but anyway please enjoy

00:21:04.380 this chat that I had with Dr Margaret Bennett. Ladies, gentlemen, children and everybody a very

00:21:12.060 warm welcome to the Burnham Book Festival here in 2024. Thanks so much for coming to support us

00:21:18.620 for all the events we've been having over this weekend and we've been so excited about this

00:21:24.600 particular event. I want to say right at the beginning that it's been sponsored by one of our

00:21:31.500 wonderful local businesses on Athol Street in Dunkeld called Kettles of Dunkeld. So thanks to

00:21:37.020 Kettles of Dunkeld and Alistair Wiley for sponsoring this particular event. So it's wonderful to bring

00:21:46.820 this together. First of all we're involving the hardest working woman at the Burnham Book Festival

00:21:52.540 who is Dr. Margaret Bennett. Please welcome her.

00:22:01.360 We brought Margaret through and we said you're going to be busy the whole time,

00:22:05.080 just enough time for quick cups of tea in between.

00:22:07.620 And hosting the podcast is Zoe Benditozzi.

00:22:11.900 and with her colleague Claire Mitchell Casey Zoe has been fronting up a campaign which is

00:22:23.900 Scotland to seek an apology nationally a government issued apology a pardon

00:22:32.860 and eventually a monument in memory of women mostly women who were persecuted and executed

00:22:41.740 for witchcraft so we want to dig into that a little bit but as you go through their campaign

00:22:49.020 they've been taking the time to talk to lots of different people with everything that they have

00:22:52.740 to share on the whole subject and who better than the esteemed folklorist a Scottish national

00:22:58.600 treasure Dr Margaret Bennett so with that enjoy I will perhaps field some questions on behalf of

00:23:04.660 them at the end if they've got time but once again a lovely warm welcome for the Witches of Scotland

00:23:08.760 podcast this is so lovely thanks all for coming out for this today I'm absolutely delighted to

00:23:21.480 speak to Margaret because we've just been having a chat for the last 10 minutes and I feel like

00:23:24.800 Margaret's one of those people where you could talk to for about 15 to 20 hours and you wouldn't

00:23:29.100 you wouldn't have to stop we could just go around now if you're familiar with our podcast I'm not

00:23:34.180 going to say it's shambolic, but I'm also not going to say it's organised. So we do tend to go

00:23:39.440 with quite a relaxed, chatty approach to things. I'm not a historian, neither is Claire. Our area

00:23:45.500 of interest is we're just two quite angry middle-aged women that found out about this and 1.00

00:23:49.680 thought this was something that needs to be redressed. And it ties into lots of modern things. 0.99

00:23:53.740 So today, what we're going to talk about, in theory, it might not go this way, is we're just

00:23:58.340 going to talk about general stuff, about witches that Margaret knows about, and talk about some

00:24:03.160 people that gave her information

00:24:05.220 about their own beliefs and their own backgrounds.

00:24:07.600 So just go with us

00:24:08.960 and then we might have time for questions at the end

00:24:11.400 but we'll see, okay?

00:24:13.120 So, Margaret, thank you so much for being

00:24:14.940 through this. Thank you for inviting me

00:24:17.020 and thanks to the Burnham Book Festival.

00:24:19.060 Oh, they're marvellous. Yes, they are.

00:24:21.600 It's a wonderful festival, thank you.

00:24:23.580 A really nice festival.

00:24:25.000 So, where shall we start, Margaret? What do you think is a good

00:24:27.140 jumping in point? Well, I'm quite old,

00:24:29.340 you see. I'm nearer 80 than 70

00:24:31.120 so I can go back over many, many years of memories

00:24:33.920 and maybe something that might drift into my mind

00:24:36.600 where I, in a partial storybooks,

00:24:40.000 you know, the wicked witch type stories

00:24:41.720 which I knew had nothing to do with any of us

00:24:44.140 or Scotland even for that matter,

00:24:46.600 then the realisation, oh my word.

00:24:50.040 And I remember the first local witch story I heard

00:24:53.680 and I was on a far too long walk with my mother and friends

00:24:57.660 in Waternish. I'm from Trotternish and Skye

00:25:01.700 at Wingard Island, so it was the opposite peninsula.

00:25:05.680 Never been there before. There's an in there now. And an old, old man

00:25:09.900 I was brought there by the district nurse and we sat

00:25:14.000 and listened. And he said, have you been to the graveyard at Chomping Head?

00:25:18.400 We had been. And we said, did you see that stone

00:25:21.920 there? It's got a hole in the middle of it. Well, so we had

00:25:26.020 go back and look and sure enough

00:25:27.660 he said that's where they tried the witches

00:25:30.340 witches in Skye

00:25:32.180 I was to discover

00:25:33.860 a lot of witches in Skye

00:25:36.060 I don't mean discover

00:25:37.200 it's really interesting

00:25:40.040 because with Skye

00:25:41.080 we have got one of our episodes

00:25:43.600 talking to Catherine McFee who's an archivist in Skye

00:25:46.200 and we were talking about how in Skye

00:25:48.220 there's very little witch activity

00:25:50.100 but it's recorded witch activity

00:25:52.160 and I think that's the difference

00:25:53.880 is that there aren't necessarily written archives about these things

00:25:57.460 because it's something that was talked about privately

00:26:00.000 but not talked about publicly

00:26:02.000 in a very different way to other parts of Scotland. 0.81

00:26:05.300 So Skye had definitely been a witch tradition. 0.91

00:26:08.680 Oh, yes, definitely. 0.81

00:26:09.720 And I might say, for the sake of the real Lewis people here,

00:26:13.100 I lived in Lewis for six years too, and Shetland for a couple,

00:26:16.940 that Lewis certainly had a long...

00:26:19.660 And all of the islands.

00:26:21.460 But it was all from oral tradition.

00:26:23.240 it was by the far side

00:26:24.720 I put some slides together and at some point

00:26:27.460 I thought you might like to see

00:26:29.500 the landscape really in which

00:26:31.360 we told these stories

00:26:32.740 it was still the same landscape when I was a child

00:26:35.700 I was going to show you

00:26:37.360 the view from my mother's

00:26:38.700 from the house my mother was born in

00:26:40.800 and so you say oh okay

00:26:43.120 that's very different to

00:26:45.180 being in a very

00:26:47.440 different setting where there's newspapers

00:26:48.980 and everything else

00:26:50.000 no electricity while I was a child

00:26:52.260 I remember the first electric light I saw

00:26:54.500 I think that's also significant as well

00:26:56.620 because it's all from oral tradition

00:26:58.660 Is that to spell it?

00:27:00.400 Oh very, yes

00:27:01.720 and my mother's take on this 0.96

00:27:04.140 they used to, they had a Cayley

00:27:06.260 the literal meaning of the word is a visit

00:27:08.340 and so a Cayley house

00:27:10.280 my grandfather's house was

00:27:12.260 a typical one, people would gather there

00:27:14.400 usually when daylight had fallen

00:27:16.780 and they would sit round and talk

00:27:18.740 and my mother

00:27:20.800 said if they went to somebody else

00:27:22.600 they said oh we'd be scared to go home

00:27:24.260 and our sister said

00:27:26.380 oh we'd be walking one another back home

00:27:28.680 all night because we wouldn't go back

00:27:30.580 home again alone

00:27:31.700 because they were so scared by some

00:27:34.640 of these stories

00:27:35.640 well and some of them had

00:27:38.460 witches

00:27:38.940 I think it really lends itself

00:27:42.440 to that idea

00:27:43.260 so just to be clear

00:27:45.700 when we're talking about witches and sky

00:27:47.820 are we talking about witches as we often think of them

00:27:50.400 in the modern day being kind of benign, the herbalists that might give you some idea with

00:27:55.640 your love life. Are we talking about the kind of witches that were persecuted and executed because

00:28:00.660 they were very much in the service of the devil? I think the whole range. There were some who were

00:28:06.880 helpful and there were some you better watch out because that person has a mean streak. There were

00:28:12.860 wizards as well. And the difference with a wizard? He was a person, a man. Just purely down to being a man.

00:28:20.260 And, yes, and there's a tradition, too, that they're sort of known wizards, like Michael Scott, the wizard of the north.

00:28:29.480 And the odd stories are attributed to him.

00:28:32.960 How would you know?

00:28:34.120 People discuss, you know, when's Easter this year?

00:28:36.480 You'll have heard them.

00:28:37.540 When's Easter this year?

00:28:38.920 And they go, hmm, and then you ask somebody.

00:28:41.360 They used to say, ask Michael Scott will soon tell us

00:28:45.660 he would have ridden his horse to Rome to ask the Pope's wife.

00:28:51.300 Is that not a wee bit of a paradox?

00:28:53.520 I didn't know she had one.

00:28:55.620 And so people thought he'd come back with a date of Easter and that was it.

00:28:58.940 But then again, that was not how it was worked out.

00:29:01.560 That was just something people hadn't thought it through.

00:29:07.020 But there again, not going back so many centuries as that,

00:29:11.360 when you think about

00:29:13.740 Walter Scott's

00:29:14.940 even his short stories

00:29:18.620 like the Drover's Tale

00:29:19.920 he describes the Drovers

00:29:22.040 coming down from the north

00:29:23.860 and over the furthest reaches

00:29:25.340 wherever they were in the highlands

00:29:26.700 yes down here past on Keldon

00:29:28.540 through to the Creeftriest

00:29:30.200 and in the autumn

00:29:31.960 round about now

00:29:33.340 the cattle would have a little

00:29:36.220 braid of Rowan

00:29:38.160 in their tails

00:29:39.240 to keep away the witches

00:29:41.100 because Rowan trees are significant aren't they

00:29:43.840 yes very significant

00:29:45.140 and I can come to that again

00:29:47.480 but I

00:29:49.540 this also being Halloween

00:29:51.820 what about now

00:29:52.940 the costume for Halloween as you know

00:29:55.600 oh don't go to Tesco or 0.99

00:29:57.700 Astor whatever they're selling these darn things 0.91

00:29:59.800 but anyway they didn't 0.97

00:30:01.760 sell costumes they made

00:30:03.620 costumes but they weren't generally

00:30:05.620 witches now

00:30:06.940 my thought on this would be 0.99

00:30:09.660 they believed

00:30:11.380 and the belief was that

00:30:12.560 that was the night

00:30:14.820 from the old Celtic New Year 0.90

00:30:17.420 into the new

00:30:18.720 so November the first

00:30:21.260 being the new year

00:30:22.440 the night before

00:30:23.880 we all start the night before

00:30:26.480 as we do with Hagmanay

00:30:28.100 that's the custom starts the night before

00:30:30.880 in the dark

00:30:31.460 so that's Halloween

00:30:32.820 all Hallow's Eve

00:30:34.400 and if there are malevolent spirits

00:30:38.120 coming back

00:30:38.960 they will come back that night

00:30:41.000 and the talk was

00:30:43.400 and so will the witches

00:30:44.960 and if they're going to do you harm

00:30:47.220 just because they have some grudge

00:30:50.180 this is the night

00:30:51.800 so people would

00:30:53.000 disguise so they were not recognized

00:30:55.720 by those returning spirits

00:30:57.500 or the witches

00:30:58.480 there's a lovely recording

00:31:01.580 made by John Lorne Campbell

00:31:03.600 of Canna when he was living on the island of Barra

00:31:06.080 and because

00:31:07.260 the anthropologists will tell us

00:31:09.140 they will conclude

00:31:10.660 in Fraser, the golden bough

00:31:13.240 there's lots of conclusions and they're not proven

00:31:15.500 so how can we prove that

00:31:17.360 that's really what they thought

00:31:18.740 well this is my, I feel like

00:31:20.800 one piece of evidence

00:31:22.260 an old man, he was a fisherman

00:31:24.420 and he was, oh, long since

00:31:27.060 hung up his

00:31:28.360 rubber boots and his oilskins

00:31:30.600 he was over 90

00:31:31.720 and Halloween came round

00:31:34.480 and all the geysers came in

00:31:36.720 Now, the geysers, in my mother's day,

00:31:39.380 they would use burnt cork to blacken their hands even

00:31:43.280 so your hands were disguised or wave something

00:31:45.540 and they would blacken their faces.

00:31:47.740 Yes, they had all kinds of garbs,

00:31:50.000 but they didn't have to be witches.

00:31:51.320 Well, in they came, en masse,

00:31:53.120 we would go out, a whole village of us,

00:31:55.340 to house to house in Lewis.

00:31:57.920 You might remember that.

00:31:59.460 What was that called there?

00:32:01.200 Was that geysing there?

00:32:02.440 Geysing, it was called geysing, yes.

00:32:03.960 and I'll show you a picture

00:32:05.700 of what some other guys

00:32:07.040 this photograph was taken

00:32:09.800 on the island of

00:32:11.940 South Uist

00:32:13.680 now that's what costumes should be

00:32:15.920 now that's costumes isn't it

00:32:17.240 that's terrifying

00:32:18.880 and they made some of the things

00:32:21.880 out of skulls which is again

00:32:23.580 a bit of a hint of the dead

00:32:25.340 a bit of a hint

00:32:26.900 and actually

00:32:29.140 when I was putting this together

00:32:31.480 I thought why not Margaret Faye Shaw took that

00:32:33.860 and she lived down near South Glendale,

00:32:37.280 North Glendale's already in South Uist.

00:32:39.760 So I thought, I'm going to phone Paul McCallum,

00:32:41.800 who lives down there.

00:32:42.900 Paul, I said, your folk lived near her.

00:32:47.320 I said, have you seen that picture?

00:32:49.640 And, oh, I know the one you mean.

00:32:51.140 I said, any idea?

00:32:52.840 Oh, no, he said, I'll tell you who that is.

00:32:54.860 That one there is my uncle,

00:32:56.300 and that one there is my father, he said.

00:32:59.220 Yes, and he's a lot younger than I am.

00:33:01.720 He's a good 10 years younger than I am,

00:33:03.520 anyhow so we're not talking about something

00:33:05.460 from hundreds of years ago

00:33:07.140 so that's how some of the costumes

00:33:09.540 wear just as long as the witches

00:33:11.460 wouldn't recognize you

00:33:12.640 but back to this

00:33:14.160 another island south, Barra

00:33:17.260 the man that

00:33:19.320 Margaret Bayshawn married, John Lorne Campbell

00:33:21.320 he was collecting fieldwork

00:33:23.600 in Barra and he was there one Halloween

00:33:25.840 and oh they were going out

00:33:27.800 dressed in all kinds of things

00:33:29.540 and in they stomped

00:33:32.000 you stomp, you don't do your own

00:33:33.460 you don't talk in your own voice

00:33:35.280 you make a new voice, nobody will know who you are

00:33:38.140 your guy's your voice as well

00:33:40.200 you see

00:33:40.600 and in they came

00:33:42.700 and the old man, the old fisherman

00:33:44.740 nearly fainted

00:33:46.360 they thought he was, oh dear, he's having a heart attack

00:33:49.940 but no, they

00:33:50.940 offered him a drama, he didn't even take that 0.99

00:33:53.800 he was just white, ashen 0.96

00:33:55.880 and he was breathing

00:33:57.380 fast and they couldn't figure out why

00:34:00.120 anyway

00:34:01.540 the custom I stood

00:34:03.620 you guess this is so and so

00:34:06.260 oh yes I know who that is

00:34:07.700 I know those feet anywhere

00:34:09.320 all this stuff

00:34:10.600 darn it I should have worn something else 0.89

00:34:12.840 one by one they unmasked 0.98

00:34:16.000 and one young man

00:34:18.600 he was 18

00:34:19.660 and he was dressed in fisherman's clothes

00:34:21.980 and when he unmasked

00:34:24.660 the old man

00:34:25.760 just about fell off his chair

00:34:28.200 with relief

00:34:28.840 this young man of 18 was dressed in his grandfather's clothes

00:34:33.920 he was a fisherman, he'd hung the stuff up in the old boat shed

00:34:37.380 and it had been gathering dust, it was full of holes and raggedy

00:34:40.360 and he put it all on, swester on top of the mask

00:34:43.280 and this was his, he died that year, that very year

00:34:47.480 so he wore the old man's clothes

00:34:49.240 and soon enough, the old fisherman

00:34:52.900 and the other fisherman had fallen out

00:34:56.680 more than 60 years ago

00:34:58.960 and hadn't spoken since

00:35:00.520 so if anyone had a grudge

00:35:02.900 against him, that was that old fisherman

00:35:04.960 he died that year and he 0.95

00:35:06.840 walks through the door on

00:35:08.740 Halloween, hence the

00:35:10.760 horrendous shock, so you

00:35:12.720 don't need to be dressed as a witch

00:35:14.780 to have the

00:35:16.560 implications that it's to do with the dead

00:35:18.680 and spirits etc

00:35:20.420 but it's quite something

00:35:22.560 we're so different to some other cultures

00:35:24.920 aren't we, it's not a sort of a celebration

00:35:26.580 of the dead exactly is it it's kind of a fearful i don't know what is it is it what you behave

00:35:32.080 yourself while you're alive well um i mean some people you know they well we need you need to

00:35:39.180 give well i never heard the phrase trick or treat that's very very new and american i'm a school

00:35:44.440 teacher and when the children this week have been talking about going trick or treat i think you are

00:35:48.980 not american it's dancing yes have you got a joke or a song or something no oh well that's the thing

00:35:55.320 and this is what

00:35:56.880 our global

00:35:58.640 world does

00:36:00.540 but maybe we can

00:36:03.620 I think the past helps us understand

00:36:06.020 the present just a bit

00:36:07.480 and also the respect

00:36:09.980 of that kind of witch

00:36:11.760 but they were normally the fires

00:36:14.080 were at Halloween

00:36:15.180 to burn them away

00:36:16.720 now you say wait a minute 0.72

00:36:19.800 there's Guy Fawkes now

00:36:21.120 it's only Guy Fawkes because our school classroom

00:36:24.080 books told us all, since the Education Act of 1872, the Scottish Education Act, where

00:36:30.120 everything had to be according to the English Education Act, and Guy Fawkes was part of

00:36:34.580 the history.

00:36:35.580 Oh, well, we'll just burn him at Halloween.

00:36:37.580 Because it's interesting, when we started the campaign, Clare said to me, it was Clare

00:36:42.500 that started the idea of it, and she said to me, you know, because of all the things

00:36:45.760 that's happened in Scotland to the witches, and I grew up in Fife, I was like, what happened?

00:36:50.040 And Clare was kind of like, wow.

00:36:52.280 then told me the story and I had absolutely no concept of witches in Scotland. My family

00:36:57.500 obviously don't pass down stories and they don't have that kind of culture. They're more

00:37:02.740 likely to talk about people sort of in the street than, you know, do you know what I

00:37:05.800 mean? So it wasn't that kind of useful oral tradition. So it was completely news to me.

00:37:10.300 So while doing the campaign and speaking to people like yourself and historians, I didn't

00:37:14.220 know that Scotland had this incredibly rich past with witches because we weren't taught

00:37:19.240 it in school. No, I think

00:37:21.240 it probably wasn't taught in any

00:37:23.360 school, but you may happen to grow up in any area

00:37:25.220 where it happened. Just a quick

00:37:27.040 slide here of the man who recorded the

00:37:29.260 story, John Lorne Campbell, and his

00:37:31.320 wife, Margaret.

00:37:33.060 She took the photo of

00:37:35.180 the Halloween geysers.

00:37:37.680 But we have

00:37:39.220 vestiges of it today.

00:37:42.420 We live near Comrie,

00:37:45.260 and those fire festivals,

00:37:47.300 that new year, they happen,

00:37:49.020 or most of them do now except Burg Hedge

00:37:50.900 which is an old new year

00:37:52.700 11th of January but that

00:37:54.800 is if you like

00:37:56.480 a repeat of

00:37:57.840 if you like seining

00:38:00.400 seining meaning purifying

00:38:01.900 the boundaries

00:38:04.520 of a community to keep the community 1.00

00:38:06.500 safe and the old people 1.00

00:38:08.460 will say well that keeps the witches 1.00

00:38:10.300 away from our village for the rest of

00:38:12.480 the year and so on

00:38:14.380 it goes and if you live in

00:38:16.520 Perthshire you will have seen this

00:38:18.440 a reminder that witches were persecuted.

00:38:24.100 I don't think a lot is known about this one

00:38:27.300 and why she was burned.

00:38:30.480 But every year, that little white painted sign

00:38:34.500 gets repainted.

00:38:36.200 I wonder who does that.

00:38:37.900 We don't know.

00:38:39.240 We don't know.

00:38:40.920 But it's not anything new.

00:38:44.620 It carried on long past that.

00:38:46.920 and everybody used to love

00:38:48.660 Burns' Tam O'Shanter

00:38:50.660 but he himself says

00:38:52.080 this inspiration came out of what he heard

00:38:55.000 in childhood

00:38:55.760 and his mother's, the nursemaid

00:38:58.900 had so many stories

00:39:01.000 about, oh gosh, they're all listed 0.76

00:39:03.160 here, devils 0.95

00:39:04.840 ghosts, fairies, brunies, witches, warlocks 0.95

00:39:07.200 bunkies, kelpies, elf candles

00:39:08.820 needless, wraiths, apparitions,

00:39:10.840 kenters, giants, enchanted, throwered

00:39:12.860 dragons, another trumpery

00:39:14.320 well now, there you are, that's enough for a

00:39:16.900 at least one poem yeah but also um he himself in some ways and gene armory the subject of a kind

00:39:24.940 of a witch hunt and when you think about how they it was you know his poem holy or his prayer it

00:39:33.620 doesn't mention anything to do with witches but the hypocrisy of the church elder who followed

00:39:38.600 himself and gene so that he would then report on what he saw and then have them kneel before the

00:39:44.760 repentance and so on

00:39:46.300 and that feeling that

00:39:48.400 you know we're being a witch hunt

00:39:50.980 that flees him 0.83

00:39:52.620 I think it

00:39:53.240 but there are

00:39:55.500 there are other

00:39:56.880 oh yes

00:39:58.980 talking of the ministers

00:40:00.880 this minister

00:40:03.120 here

00:40:03.620 and this book

00:40:08.660 I think was banned because he heard those stories

00:40:11.100 he wrote them

00:40:12.900 down witch stories

00:40:14.360 a lot of them from Tyree, but if you go to Tyree today you'll still hear stories about

00:40:20.840 witches, yes, and what they did, and one of my, and as a folklorist I've tried to record

00:40:32.120 the tradition, an audio recording, starting off, yes, with reel-to-reel tapes and now

00:40:36.580 the digital minuscule stuff, you don't need a barot to carry in the gear, but one of my

00:40:42.940 favorite recordings is of

00:40:44.740 this man

00:40:46.660 this man here isn't that a great

00:40:50.800 character face

00:40:51.720 Jimmy Macbeth he's better known

00:40:56.820 as a singer

00:40:59.160 of songs like

00:41:00.760 Tramps and Hawkers because he certainly had a lot

00:41:03.000 of experience in both tramping

00:41:05.020 and hawking and working as an itinerant

00:41:07.320 and he was from

00:41:08.700 Portsoy and Hamish

00:41:10.860 Henderson recorded him

00:41:12.260 we thought of playing the tape

00:41:14.360 it's so broad spoken that you'll be

00:41:16.140 basically Hamish

00:41:18.320 said to him

00:41:20.000 so Jimmy with a name like Macbeth

00:41:21.980 are you anything to

00:41:22.820 Macbeth you know

00:41:25.440 King Duncan and those folk

00:41:28.200 well he says

00:41:29.620 we're probably far back

00:41:31.400 so he said what can you tell me

00:41:33.740 and on he went and he said

00:41:35.900 well were there witches all these three old 0.97

00:41:38.040 hags he said 0.99

00:41:38.940 I'll tell you where that happened

00:41:40.880 and they had spells you can

00:41:42.820 so were the witches

00:41:44.600 and he said that's

00:41:46.320 you can that road if I hint

00:41:48.460 just prefer

00:41:49.240 I don't think that comes into Shakespeare

00:41:51.860 well he says I can tack you up there

00:41:54.540 and show you where they met

00:41:55.880 and they had a coven

00:41:56.940 and on it went

00:41:59.120 and it goes on for about 10 minutes

00:42:02.140 and Hamish said to him

00:42:03.700 and so Jimmy have you read

00:42:06.000 Shakespeare's play Macbeth

00:42:07.840 is there a play about it or no

00:42:09.940 that being oral tradition

00:42:14.820 that's just a transcription

00:42:21.040 of the thing

00:42:22.080 this man here, I didn't ever meet him

00:42:24.780 he died before I ever

00:42:27.020 got to Tyree but he's well

00:42:28.900 recorded and if you're interested in his

00:42:30.980 stories about witches

00:42:32.440 you can find them online

00:42:34.820 in the website called 0.84

00:42:36.840 the Kista Witches

00:42:38.440 and he had so many stories about witches and what they did

00:42:45.300 and there was a terrible fishing disaster

00:42:49.300 in the 1800s and lots of boats lost

00:42:54.080 and he was absolutely convinced, totally convinced

00:42:58.000 that it was caused, the storm was caused by witches

00:43:01.660 and that's why all the boats capsized and everybody was drowned

00:43:04.760 So weather witches of the order that interfered with King James' bride being able to come

00:43:10.540 across in Denmark.

00:43:11.440 Yes, and I don't think he even would have called them weather witches in as much as

00:43:15.840 he thought there were definitely people in this world who had a malevolent street.

00:43:20.640 Yeah.

00:43:21.460 And if they didn't get you this way, they would get you that way.

00:43:25.720 And if it meant that you were out in a boat, watch out.

00:43:28.600 Yeah.

00:43:29.120 By the way, when you have a boiled egg,

00:43:34.660 does anybody ever turn it upside down in the egg cup

00:43:38.060 and then go, stick the spoon through it?

00:43:41.240 You ever see that?

00:43:43.220 There you go.

00:43:44.780 Were you told why?

00:43:46.400 Or did you, as I did, I just did it because my mother did that

00:43:49.340 and my grandmother, and I liked the sound of it.

00:43:52.580 Scrunch.

00:43:52.900 Did you hit the top of the...

00:43:53.900 Oh, no, after you finished eating the egg

00:43:56.280 and putting the soldiers in, you know,

00:43:58.680 eating the egg and there was

00:44:00.680 you've got the empty shell

00:44:01.800 you turn it upside down in the egg cup

00:44:03.980 and you put your spoon through it

00:44:06.120 well that's 0.86

00:44:07.740 so that the witches wouldn't be able

00:44:10.360 to drown anybody

00:44:11.440 apparently the witches

00:44:14.440 when you threw out the eggshells 0.98

00:44:16.460 could take them and they could put them

00:44:18.540 on a bowl of water

00:44:20.020 and blow and blow and blow

00:44:22.200 these little vessels

00:44:23.240 and then they would make a little storm 0.88

00:44:26.580 and it would capsize the boat

00:44:28.420 and whoever's in that boat

00:44:30.100 connecting by sympathetic magic

00:44:32.740 to the boat out at sea.

00:44:34.260 So they do it in miniature?

00:44:35.640 Yes.

00:44:36.140 And then with the power of their mind

00:44:37.440 you make that then play out

00:44:38.640 on the sea with real people?

00:44:40.120 Yes.

00:44:40.460 Wow.

00:44:41.040 I'm going to sing a song

00:44:41.900 about that tonight.

00:44:42.920 Oh.

00:44:43.500 I know.

00:44:45.140 A real drowning.

00:44:46.260 For the benefit of the tape,

00:44:47.300 Margaret's just shrugged.

00:44:51.520 But the thoughts...

00:44:53.440 And it wasn't only in Scotland.

00:44:56.300 I had a student once in Edinburgh

00:44:57.900 from Germany and she said

00:45:00.560 ah my grandmother always said

00:45:02.780 put a spoon in the egg

00:45:04.420 and we just did it because she said so

00:45:06.280 now she used to say

00:45:08.120 put your spoon in your egg 1.00

00:45:11.100 and save a sailor

00:45:12.100 it made no sense whatsoever

00:45:13.700 but in that context

00:45:15.540 and of course we were only

00:45:18.740 second to Germany for the

00:45:20.780 vigour with which 0.99

00:45:22.840 we went after and killed people that were witches 1.00

00:45:24.900 so Germany was the worst in the league 0.97

00:45:26.960 tables of international witch murdering

00:45:29.080 and Scotland came second.

00:45:31.720 Germany also did, 0.94

00:45:33.020 I think they killed animals and more 1.00

00:45:34.860 children than we did too, believing that they could

00:45:36.920 also be witches. But we were

00:45:38.700 mostly focused on women. So I think

00:45:41.000 about 84% of the people that were

00:45:43.240 executed, were accused, were women.

00:45:45.520 Yes, yes.

00:45:46.880 You very seldom hear,

00:45:49.140 I mean, I did hear of wizards

00:45:50.900 in Sky as well.

00:45:53.220 But somehow...

00:45:56.500 Were wizards not as sort of persecuted?

00:46:00.000 Were wizards seen as being just as potentially evil or were they of a different order?

00:46:04.480 Well, the ones I heard, there was one called, well, Ian Tuathol, he was Black Donald.

00:46:12.180 Black is one of these adjective words, it can be in English too, in Gaelic, that it

00:46:18.480 takes on a sinister side. 1.00

00:46:21.280 You know, a black nature and so on. 1.00

00:46:23.980 and he used to do 0.92

00:46:27.340 he was actually quite

00:46:29.980 he was quite kind

00:46:31.540 he used to do good things

00:46:33.320 but people could not

00:46:35.100 it was like he was a magician

00:46:38.140 actually

00:46:38.740 a magician

00:46:39.980 a wizard

00:46:41.140 and then came

00:46:43.600 he was actually

00:46:45.740 in the merchant marine

00:46:48.260 he only died in 1905

00:46:50.740 or something

00:46:51.180 we're not talking about hundreds of

00:46:52.700 and he'd been in the Merchant Marines

00:46:55.980 and apparently

00:46:57.520 he had gone to some school

00:46:59.620 of the black arts

00:47:01.100 in Italy

00:47:02.080 bringing that all back home with him

00:47:05.220 and he had those tricks that he performed

00:47:07.340 he didn't call them tricks

00:47:08.980 they were just, how did you do that

00:47:11.280 like he would borrow

00:47:12.480 half a crown from you

00:47:15.040 to buy a couple of drinks for us all

00:47:16.940 and he would

00:47:18.200 empty his pockets, there was nothing there

00:47:20.300 and then he would get changed back

00:47:22.340 and it cost more, and he kept, this change

00:47:24.320 kept going, nobody ever saw where

00:47:26.280 it came from, at the end he'd give you back your half crown

00:47:28.440 and so it was

00:47:30.540 simple things, simple but not

00:47:32.620 he would bamboozle

00:47:34.380 people with

00:47:35.220 but they were more like tricks

00:47:37.660 but the witches

00:47:40.220 I'll bring this on 0.87

00:47:42.580 to, you can

00:47:44.240 if you're interested in pursuing the stories

00:47:46.540 you can listen to them, some of them

00:47:48.340 they're not all in Gaelic, a lot of them

00:47:50.500 in translation we have somebody's oh putting silver or gold a lot of the

00:47:58.120 stories of witchcraft had something to do with cattle stealing the good out of

00:48:03.280 the mill there's a witch stealing the good or somebody would be churning

00:48:09.940 butter and the butter would churn and churn all day long and it never turned

00:48:15.820 into cream not a bit

00:48:17.640 and the saying would be

00:48:19.520 so and so which took

00:48:21.600 the good out of the milk

00:48:22.920 so they would put a

00:48:24.400 here's a confession

00:48:26.720 my grandmother occasionally

00:48:29.180 put sixpence in the bottom

00:48:31.440 of the milk pail

00:48:32.540 and yet

00:48:35.100 she was devoutly religious

00:48:37.560 free church 0.96

00:48:38.680 how did those two things sit beside each other

00:48:41.860 seamlessly

00:48:43.480 apparently

00:48:44.300 only you didn't mention it the same thing with fairies i was going to ask you about fairies

00:48:50.180 oh gosh so i've only recently discovered this about fairies so i don't know what your concept

00:48:55.320 of a fairy would be previous to the new knowledge i have i thought as fairies of being kind of a

00:49:00.300 tinkerbell type thing nice little sort of tittering around in the air pretty nice little obviously

00:49:06.820 disneyfied but i recently spoke to a historian who said oh no no no fairies weren't like that

00:49:12.120 in Scotland and I was kind of like tell me more maybe you could tell people more about fairies

00:49:16.200 it's very true they could they could be nice but they weren't little tinkerbell creatures that's

00:49:22.200 the way and they everybody seemed to believe in fairies to a certain extent in the late 1600s

00:49:30.300 a minister in Balhuda and he was also later in Aberfoyle said his name was Robert Kirk he said

00:49:36.980 he saw the fairies on the hill behind Malhouda Church.

00:49:41.700 And that's a minister saying that.

00:49:43.100 The minister, yes, the minister. 1.00

00:49:46.280 And, gosh, these fairies, he described them. 0.95

00:49:50.060 And they weren't dressed in green, by the way.

00:49:51.780 Some of them were in tartan, apparently.

00:49:54.560 That's one of the stories I've read recently.

00:49:56.420 It was a story of a woman called Elspeth Rioch.

00:49:58.800 Do you know her story?

00:49:59.800 Not really.

00:50:00.380 So when she was 12, she was standing at a loch somewhere up north

00:50:06.160 and two men were on the loch side one dressed in black one dressed in green tartan and these two 0.92

00:50:12.440 turned out they were fairies and they told her how to tell the future using an egg so by boiling an 0.76

00:50:18.020 egg and then washing her face with an unclean like an unwashed hand with the water from that 1.00

00:50:23.340 was around the egg wash her face she could then tell the future and she was eventually executed 0.70

00:50:28.700 for being a witch but I mean as a modern day person she went on to have two children quite

00:50:33.540 soon afterwards and I think the idea of a fairy in this situation is much more malevolent and human 0.66

00:50:39.100 than because there's kids here I won't go into that story but this she became pregnant by fairies

00:50:44.780 I think you know there's a much more horrible story there but as a teacher my child protection 1.00

00:50:49.900 hat would be kind of like my alarm bells would be ringing but then she became mute and her brother

00:50:54.860 beat her to try and get her to speak and she wouldn't and she'd travel around the country

00:50:59.720 would sometimes speak and sometimes wouldn't but all because she'd been given this gift of 0.88

00:51:04.040 telling the future by these two fairies who were men yes yes actually there's a book written in

00:51:12.680 new stories collected by um by a folklorist of women who were enticed by the fairies when they

00:51:20.680 went to pick berries and there was all nearly always a child involved later the birth of a child

00:51:26.440 and usually

00:51:29.300 the line was

00:51:31.480 I don't remember what happened after that

00:51:34.560 but I woke up

00:51:35.540 I mean are we talking about

00:51:38.380 a drug

00:51:40.480 like the fly agaric

00:51:42.600 mushroom or what are we talking about

00:51:44.780 when I don't remember anything that happened

00:51:46.620 I just woke up

00:51:47.400 or a trauma response where you just don't remember what happened

00:51:50.040 but

00:51:51.300 Robert Kirk

00:51:53.600 yes he said he saw the face 0.77

00:51:56.200 and in fact he was taken away by the fairies they say that he wasn't he didn't die a natural death

00:52:01.180 and then he his coffin was said to be just weighted down with stones that he wasn't in it

00:52:10.220 that he had been taken away by the fairies

00:52:14.320 I went to Boulwood at the 300th anniversary of his book which was in 1992 and there was an old lady

00:52:22.420 Mrs. McGregor, we'll call her

00:52:26.100 she wasn't actually

00:52:27.000 and I went to see her

00:52:29.680 because my mother said 1.00

00:52:31.700 she believes in the fairies, she really does 1.00

00:52:33.800 I said okay, we'll go on 1.00

00:52:35.620 invite her to tea, but she invited us

00:52:37.800 we went down and we talked about the weather

00:52:39.720 and everything else and I said

00:52:40.960 gosh, I said, living in this glen

00:52:42.940 where Robert Kirk saw the fairies

00:52:45.480 didn't he?

00:52:47.460 yes, she said, and do you know this?

00:52:49.200 she said, we have a minister here

00:52:51.660 now living in the church

00:52:53.800 where that Reverend Robert Kirk

00:52:55.980 lived and he doesn't believe in the fairies

00:52:57.960 no I said

00:52:59.800 and I said

00:53:01.820 and he stopped me coming out

00:53:03.900 of church the other day last Sunday

00:53:05.820 and he said Mrs. McGregor

00:53:08.220 you know you have to stop this

00:53:09.440 and he quoted me that when I

00:53:11.960 was a man I put away childish things

00:53:14.020 put away childish things

00:53:16.300 she said he said to me

00:53:17.860 you believe in God

00:53:19.700 I told him 0.99

00:53:21.360 I do believe in God, but I also believe in the fairies.

00:53:25.580 And he said, Mrs. McGregor, have you ever seen a fairy?

00:53:30.700 I said to him, have you ever seen God?

00:53:34.800 So what is belief, you know, what is belief?

00:53:37.840 And I think that's something we can look at. 1.00

00:53:40.800 What did the fairies do? 1.00

00:53:42.200 I mean, what was their purpose? 1.00

00:53:43.700 Well, they could help you.

00:53:46.500 And there's lots of stories about them.

00:53:48.360 you know somebody with that toil weary task like spinning something the one you know where mountains 0.98

00:53:54.620 that would spend you get up in the morning and the fairies have been here before you and spun it all

00:53:58.680 and it's drifted into fairy tale or yeah but they would um a lot of people used to put out a little 0.95

00:54:06.840 bowl of milk for the fairies just to keep them sweet yeah you don't want to tempt the fairies 0.55

00:54:13.960 because they could do you a mischief 0.71

00:54:16.640 they didn't all

00:54:18.420 but some of them did

00:54:19.580 and you could be stolen away to fairyland

00:54:22.100 that was more common

00:54:24.400 than I thought

00:54:25.140 I had a student in Glasgow, a musician

00:54:28.060 who talked about the fairies

00:54:29.820 I thought, these Glasgow students

00:54:32.060 are going to say, oh listen, what is she on about now

00:54:34.660 and

00:54:35.520 she put her hand up

00:54:37.760 I said, yes

00:54:38.580 she said, my grandfather got a tune

00:54:41.960 from the fairies

00:54:42.940 he was on his way home from a wedding 0.99

00:54:45.040 I said really

00:54:47.220 and do you know what

00:54:48.620 we traced a tune and even a recording of it

00:54:51.540 and a recording

00:54:53.720 of him talking about when he met 0.58

00:54:55.440 the fairies 0.91

00:54:56.140 yes I can send you it

00:54:58.180 it's quite exciting in a way when you see

00:55:00.660 it's such a seamless garment

00:55:02.580 you asked me what the connection

00:55:05.100 church people

00:55:06.200 well have I got a picture of him

00:55:08.860 yes

00:55:09.340 I'm reminded of

00:55:17.060 a Sunday in Sky

00:55:19.100 this is not the community

00:55:21.000 this is Staffan actually which is further north

00:55:23.640 these spaced out houses

00:55:25.560 and there's always a few ruins

00:55:27.380 and my uncle and I

00:55:29.460 were going to church

00:55:30.440 and he had a cigarette first

00:55:33.100 so he was standing at the end of the house

00:55:34.860 it was this time of year

00:55:37.500 with these beautiful berries

00:55:38.980 I said look at the brown ones

00:55:40.680 they're still in

00:55:43.080 Fulbury and the people who lived

00:55:45.100 in those ruins are long gone

00:55:46.880 to Prince Edward Island

00:55:48.200 oh yes he said they're still growing 0.99

00:55:51.260 and he put the fag out and he said 0.99

00:55:52.760 yep they keep away the witches 0.99

00:55:54.280 and we went to church then

00:55:55.880 with the same breath we get in the car

00:55:59.160 and go to church

00:55:59.760 and I didn't cross question him I just

00:56:02.820 listened

00:56:03.780 and do you think that your uncle really did believe

00:56:06.500 in such thing of witches and that these

00:56:08.480 really were protected sorry was he just saying that well here's the acid test isn't it

00:56:15.040 confession when i moved to edinburgh 1983 and moved into a flat in edinburgh

00:56:23.760 the first thing i did at the end after about a month or so i got a little rowan sapling from my

00:56:30.880 mother and then planted it at it towards the gate and then one or two people noticed it it grew and

00:56:40.000 it grew I remember Betsy White the traveler came to visit me one day ah she said you put a rowan

00:56:46.500 at the gate we do too I didn't say why but then one time I came home and my upstairs neighbor

00:56:55.520 had cut it down

00:56:56.920 and

00:56:58.800 that was the test

00:57:00.820 I cannot tell you how

00:57:02.880 absolutely devastated

00:57:05.420 the world was

00:57:06.120 I believe she might have been

00:57:08.900 I can't

00:57:11.660 tell you how

00:57:12.480 I would hardly have predicted

00:57:15.460 I was capable of feeling so absolutely

00:57:17.620 gutted, a little tree

00:57:19.580 I can go and get another one

00:57:20.880 that wasn't the point

00:57:22.500 but it certainly is our

00:57:25.180 sacred tree

00:57:27.260 and you shouldn't cut them down

00:57:29.620 if one falls that's different

00:57:31.900 you can make rockers for the cradle

00:57:33.700 to lull a child

00:57:35.600 or you can make a husk for the milk

00:57:38.260 or a churn stick

00:57:40.240 but those

00:57:42.000 well

00:57:43.100 so that's the landscape

00:57:44.820 this one here standing at my grandfather's

00:57:48.300 that's the spot my mother

00:57:50.200 was born and looking across

00:57:52.100 the Conon River

00:57:53.480 and this is the Fairy Glen

00:57:55.780 and it was a playground really

00:57:58.400 and children would be told

00:57:59.600 well, you know, there's 365 hillocks there

00:58:03.260 one for each day of the year

00:58:05.060 and of course you tried to count them

00:58:07.100 but it's impossible

00:58:08.220 you did me count this one

00:58:09.500 I'm not sure, well start again

00:58:11.200 one, two, what a way of keeping children occupied

00:58:13.780 and you might meet

00:58:15.200 it really spoke of the supernatural

00:58:19.640 Was it not a fear though

00:58:21.040 that if you send your children out to play

00:58:23.420 there that something might happen with the world of things.

00:58:25.640 Well, a good point.

00:58:28.160 There was a river

00:58:29.600 at the bottom of the

00:58:31.900 glen. That's across the river.

00:58:34.860 So the glen came in.

00:58:36.160 We were on this side and that was

00:58:37.760 in the other. So that was the view across.

00:58:40.480 We were only allowed to

00:58:41.760 cross on a little bridge

00:58:43.500 and we had to promise faithfully you must

00:58:45.620 cross on the bridge.

00:58:47.860 But in my mother's

00:58:49.740 day, they were

00:58:51.540 told about the water horse.

00:58:53.420 which was a very evil and malevolent spirit.

00:58:57.820 And I recorded my mother, I think, talking about this.

00:59:03.400 They called it the Yahushka, the water horse.

00:59:07.380 And don't go near the river or the water horse will get you.

00:59:12.360 And I said, water horse?

00:59:16.460 What did it look like?

00:59:18.440 Oh, for goodness sake, she said,

00:59:20.040 we didn't go near the river, so I never saw it.

00:59:22.360 and it is a sort of a very effective way of keeping children and then i said oh it'd be huge

00:59:29.000 huge she said you know imagining what she managed to not see um but nevertheless it was it was that

00:59:38.360 kept the children away so did they believe in it well when they were children they did but

00:59:43.380 when my mother began to tell my sisters and i the same thing my father put his foot down

00:59:49.560 he was of Glasgow Armagh

00:59:51.840 extraction and said 0.97

00:59:53.440 what a load of nonsense 1.00

00:59:54.800 don't tell the children that rubbish 1.00

00:59:57.420 but guess what 0.97

00:59:58.680 I wasn't the children of generations who thought

01:00:01.440 anything went and drowning is what happened

01:00:03.420 to somebody else

01:00:04.360 so it was

01:00:05.880 it had its advantages and I saw

01:00:09.440 no harm in it

01:00:10.860 that

01:00:12.520 maybe these things are functional if you don't

01:00:15.780 demonise them

01:00:16.980 and the children who believe

01:00:18.820 well that's on our side of the river

01:00:21.140 and the other one was

01:00:21.900 that's the uncle who said

01:00:23.680 the Rowans

01:00:26.900 keep away the witches

01:00:28.100 but this is 0.95

01:00:29.860 another uncle

01:00:32.440 he had all kinds

01:00:35.000 of witch stories

01:00:36.020 oh my word

01:00:37.060 and he grew up three miles from Portree

01:00:40.140 and maybe

01:00:41.660 I won't tell you them all

01:00:43.320 but oh he had witch stories from outside of Portree

01:00:45.840 and you know

01:00:47.060 And they would start like this.

01:00:48.280 You know that quarry out on the road to Achachork?

01:00:52.400 And you have to say, well, there was a witch who lived there.

01:00:54.840 And then you get this story and the noises of horse chains and you name it.

01:01:00.800 But more up-to-date, pardon me, than that was the fact that you can't find him.

01:01:07.200 Never mind, there he is.

01:01:09.240 When we were, I was in my teens, I think, he got a job in a diatomite factory in Uig.

01:01:14.920 now diatomite

01:01:17.200 one doesn't talk too much about it now

01:01:19.240 I don't know what that is

01:01:20.460 it's excavated

01:01:24.440 from the bottom of a loch

01:01:25.660 it's like a soft, soft clay

01:01:27.560 apparently it's minuscule insects

01:01:30.360 of millions of years old

01:01:31.940 and they squished at the bottom

01:01:33.140 two lochs in the sky

01:01:35.100 and the lochs were drained

01:01:37.520 and this stuff was

01:01:40.240 dug out

01:01:41.140 and it was dried

01:01:42.760 in order to make quite a number of things

01:01:45.280 including face powder

01:01:47.060 and it was used in glass making

01:01:49.580 it had a lot of uses

01:01:50.460 and how this happened

01:01:52.900 but a German company

01:01:54.240 invested in it

01:01:56.480 and they brought in machinery

01:01:57.840 because there was a demand for it

01:02:00.380 so they go to Skye

01:02:02.820 in the North End

01:02:03.820 after the war

01:02:05.020 very few jobs

01:02:06.460 and Murdo, his name was Murdo McLean

01:02:10.020 he was among the men

01:02:11.500 And they had crofts, but you couldn't really make a living to do anything.

01:02:16.780 But it wasn't even subsistence.

01:02:19.320 So he got a job, so there would be money coming in.

01:02:22.380 It was a very health hazard because it was so dusty.

01:02:26.980 Anyhow, it was doomed to fail.

01:02:28.920 But he said, and he told me the whole story of things.

01:02:31.380 You don't need to have that bit.

01:02:32.700 But at the end, he said, and it was absolutely, they did everything.

01:02:38.520 They brought in engineers.

01:02:40.000 They did this.

01:02:40.620 They did that.

01:02:41.140 the modern technology, but it was doomed

01:02:43.260 to fail, and old Alistair

01:02:45.280 name's a second name

01:02:46.760 who lived there, he said, Mardo, I'm telling

01:02:49.220 you this, from the day one 1.00

01:02:51.020 it wasn't going to work because of 1.00

01:02:52.980 this witch 1.00

01:02:54.460 I said, and he 0.96

01:02:56.700 what witch? Well, he said

01:02:59.300 when they were drained the loch

01:03:01.180 up near Staffan

01:03:02.240 they put in one of these little railways

01:03:05.040 to carry a wagon to the

01:03:07.180 main road, so it was a track

01:03:08.900 like a vernacular railway

01:03:10.360 and they put this wagon

01:03:12.080 so that the trucks could come to the edge of the road

01:03:14.480 a convenient stopping place

01:03:15.940 and ship it down to Uig where the factory was

01:03:18.320 the factory by the way now

01:03:20.260 is the McBrain's

01:03:22.100 ferry terminal in Uig

01:03:23.960 you might have been in it

01:03:25.960 then

01:03:27.720 they were putting the railway 1.00

01:03:30.460 down and an old lady 1.00

01:03:32.320 in Staffan

01:03:33.100 watched these men starting to lay tracks

01:03:36.380 on her croft and she came out

01:03:38.100 she was up in years

01:03:39.440 to them she would have looked eccentric

01:03:41.660 lived alone

01:03:44.000 quite isolated

01:03:45.400 and she said what are you doing in Gaelic of course

01:03:47.740 and anyway somebody told her

01:03:49.980 we're putting this track

01:03:50.900 and she said you can't put that track there

01:03:52.680 that's my croft

01:03:53.820 well crofting law is very complex

01:03:57.660 and in fact in those days

01:03:59.320 you didn't own your croft

01:04:01.000 definition of a croft

01:04:03.060 piece of land surrounded by legislation

01:04:05.480 you own your

01:04:07.900 stones in your house

01:04:09.280 and so on

01:04:10.760 but she said you can't

01:04:13.320 and they had gone over her head

01:04:15.560 they simply completely

01:04:17.120 discounted the fact that she

01:04:19.480 was a human being at all

01:04:21.420 and they said we have authority

01:04:23.740 from the landlord

01:04:25.540 and she said

01:04:28.620 that's going to be where my petitions will go

01:04:31.540 and I'll have no chance to

01:04:33.140 even feed myself if you put that

01:04:35.560 on my croft and they said well it's

01:04:37.580 going in your craft end of story and she shook the fist and she said well she said it wasn't just

01:04:44.680 my curses on you she gave them this great utterance of an almost formulaic curse and

01:04:52.020 from then on word has it things one thing after another went wrong until finally they got the

01:05:01.980 thing going and the first boat

01:05:04.120 to leave Uig

01:05:05.020 was not half a mile out of

01:05:08.060 Uig harbour when it began to

01:05:10.080 list and they had to turn back

01:05:11.980 and empty it. The whole thing

01:05:14.180 went absolutely bankrupt

01:05:15.780 and to that day and this

01:05:18.220 people in Uig will say

01:05:19.820 well, that was 0.99

01:05:22.080 the witch.

01:05:23.860 So it wasn't

01:05:26.060 malevolence in

01:05:27.640 that old sense.

01:05:29.960 She wasn't persecuted

01:05:31.180 and she wasn't burned

01:05:33.040 but she was somebody

01:05:34.920 to be respected

01:05:36.140 and she wasn't

01:05:38.640 yeah

01:05:39.040 what do you think about

01:05:44.560 the modern sort of concept

01:05:46.840 of witches, do you think that we still in Scotland

01:05:48.860 have these ideas going on

01:05:50.560 yeah

01:05:52.460 you think it's still quietly

01:05:54.780 in some communities

01:05:56.440 I'm not even sure

01:05:57.740 yes

01:05:58.840 well

01:06:01.000 a short anecdote

01:06:03.820 which surprised me no end

01:06:06.140 because it happened in Tennessee

01:06:07.960 oh

01:06:08.840 yes 0.99

01:06:09.620 this is Fiona's territory

01:06:12.500 that part of the world 1.00

01:06:14.060 in the southern Appalachians

01:06:15.660 I was there for a semester

01:06:18.140 doing a summer school

01:06:20.400 connecting immigration

01:06:21.900 history, folklore, all of that

01:06:24.480 songs, lots of songs

01:06:26.460 shared

01:06:27.160 between Scotland and Appalachia

01:06:30.400 and they had, I'd say very wisely, invited a few guests

01:06:34.200 and they brought over one of the Aberdeenshire travellers.

01:06:38.380 He was a great storyteller, singer, piper

01:06:42.320 and he had a way with people.

01:06:46.820 Anyway, when he was coming, the professor running the thing said,

01:06:50.280 I'll just go to the airport. I said, maybe I'll go with you if I may

01:06:54.220 because he'll feel, he's never been to America and he'll meet somebody, a real

01:06:58.360 Kent face so I saw him at the airport and he was happy to see me but he could hardly speak

01:07:06.060 I said hello and he said I can't see you and he couldn't speak louder than that oh goodness I said

01:07:14.160 you've got one of those aeroplane coughs or whatever it is and we get in the car to go back

01:07:21.040 to the university place and he said I'll say it in a louder voice and he could nah nah he said

01:07:26.980 and he named a woman and witched me.

01:07:30.640 I said, what?

01:07:32.040 And I cannot speak and I'm not going to be able to speak a word

01:07:35.320 for the next two weeks.

01:07:37.660 I said, oh, come on, it's just, you know,

01:07:39.960 a good cup of tea will sort that.

01:07:42.700 And no, no, no cup of tea would sort that.

01:07:45.400 Nothing would sort that.

01:07:47.640 And on the way back in the car, I said to him,

01:07:50.580 how do you mean she witched you?

01:07:53.700 I can't find, he said.

01:07:55.460 he said

01:07:57.100 now we're talking about

01:07:59.340 what, 1989

01:08:01.500 she made a clay doll 1.00

01:08:05.120 and she stuck pins in the throat 1.00

01:08:07.440 and she threw it 1.00

01:08:09.560 into a river

01:08:10.280 and no wonder I can't speak

01:08:13.440 he said

01:08:14.260 what had he done?

01:08:17.220 that's what I asked him

01:08:18.500 that's my first question, yeah

01:08:19.360 yes, I asked him

01:08:20.780 does he make a woman so enraged as to waste her time

01:08:23.680 in some ways to make a little doll 0.99

01:08:25.140 well this is it i asked myself why would she do that she's your cousin for goodness sake 0.99

01:08:32.880 yes right ah she said he said she was jealous that i got asked her to come here and she didn't

01:08:41.640 oh she was jealous now as you know jealousy is a very unattractive human quality and if you have

01:08:52.140 to choose one thing you don't want to be

01:08:53.960 jealous

01:08:55.380 there's never any good

01:08:58.100 comes of it and I said

01:09:00.000 but you know she'll get other chances 0.99

01:09:02.120 oh no nothing for it and she

01:09:03.960 said so she couldn't go

01:09:05.760 so she's going to make sure that he

01:09:08.120 couldn't do what he came to do

01:09:10.040 yeah and so I said

01:09:12.000 well we were staying

01:09:14.020 in the same lodgings

01:09:15.080 and I had that

01:09:16.500 I sat down and had something to eat

01:09:19.860 and I said to him

01:09:20.620 I've been thinking about this

01:09:23.300 and I try not to pin it on him

01:09:26.660 I said you know

01:09:27.180 if I'm really nervous about something

01:09:30.500 and I'm afraid this or that or the other is going to happen

01:09:32.920 maybe I wouldn't be able to sing that night

01:09:35.300 or be in bad voice

01:09:37.640 I said it's almost enough to make me be in bad voice

01:09:40.760 the nerves of it

01:09:42.420 do you not think maybe the fear

01:09:44.940 that she expressed jealousy

01:09:47.560 was

01:09:48.640 incidentally

01:09:53.400 I'd be glad to know he had recovered the next day

01:09:55.700 so I don't know if he rethought it

01:09:57.920 but he was so convinced

01:09:59.420 that she'd done it

01:10:01.820 and I think sometimes that was the case

01:10:03.820 with the accusations back during the witch trials

01:10:06.140 is that somebody had cursed you

01:10:08.140 for something and then you would have a fear

01:10:10.280 because you really believed there was

01:10:11.900 power in that, they did have

01:10:13.860 magical powers that things then

01:10:15.860 anything that went wrong in the ordinary run of events

01:10:18.180 you would then pin that on the witch, you know,

01:10:20.900 and the curse that the witch had given you.

01:10:23.040 Do you think we should give five minutes of questions to the audience?

01:10:27.260 Okay, we're going to have a roving mic,

01:10:29.540 so please wait till the microphone comes to you.

01:10:31.580 Does anybody have a question or a point at the front here, Madness?

01:10:41.260 I agree with Zoe that we could all listen to you for hours.

01:10:45.640 Oh, yeah. 0.93

01:10:46.120 You're an enchantress

01:10:47.960 in your own form

01:10:49.500 but what do you think

01:10:51.760 is the modern day equivalent

01:10:53.720 of witchcraft?

01:11:02.080 The modern day equivalent

01:11:04.220 of witchcraft

01:11:05.380 I wonder if it can come in

01:11:07.860 several forms

01:11:09.040 I still think that jealousy

01:11:11.960 is something that's quite

01:11:14.020 to be feared

01:11:16.380 and that when

01:11:18.000 something I can only describe

01:11:21.180 as a vibe

01:11:22.040 or a gut

01:11:25.140 feeling

01:11:25.600 and you may have had experience

01:11:29.060 of this

01:11:29.640 the same person who went to Tennessee

01:11:32.880 sold fortunes

01:11:34.520 and he said to me

01:11:36.400 somebody has the evil eye on you

01:11:39.240 I said what?

01:11:41.540 this being the modern day

01:11:44.880 the evil eye

01:11:46.820 no

01:11:47.820 and I can truthfully say

01:11:50.120 I'm not one to make enemies

01:11:52.780 I meet people I was at school with

01:11:55.380 and they say oh you used to get put out for laughing

01:11:57.380 I was always a little bit light hearted

01:11:59.580 and I

01:12:00.620 I don't fall out with people

01:12:03.120 particularly easily

01:12:04.540 if at all

01:12:05.960 evil eye I said no I don't think so

01:12:08.900 and years later

01:12:11.520 I'm talking about quite a number of years later

01:12:14.340 when a few disasters

01:12:16.560 misfell and I was

01:12:18.400 no longer in the place I had been in

01:12:20.500 no longer had the job

01:12:22.320 I had had which was quite a nice

01:12:23.780 prestigious job

01:12:24.860 he said

01:12:26.040 you figured out new who I put the evil eye on you

01:12:30.100 I said what

01:12:32.080 he said I saw it 14 years ago

01:12:34.320 I know

01:12:36.180 and then I began to think

01:12:38.520 that was in fact

01:12:41.740 not anybody who had ever been

01:12:43.480 unkind to me

01:12:44.420 that I knew of

01:12:46.100 but no matter what the kindness was

01:12:49.080 I didn't feel, there was a sort of a gut

01:12:51.660 feeling and I wonder if that's it

01:12:53.640 have you ever

01:12:55.540 been in a situation where

01:12:57.120 there's a vibe

01:12:58.440 yes, well there you are

01:13:01.220 you're tuned in, I think the bible

01:13:03.320 calls it discernment

01:13:04.780 others call it a vibe

01:13:09.380 or a gut feeling

01:13:10.500 and is that an equivalent of witchcraft

01:13:13.120 that somebody can affect you

01:13:14.960 they can affect the mood

01:13:19.120 or have you ever walked into a room

01:13:21.580 where the atmosphere is

01:13:22.800 you haven't heard a thing

01:13:25.180 but still there's

01:13:26.080 you're nodding

01:13:29.240 Fiona do you want to come in on that

01:13:30.800 no I just think it's very interesting

01:13:33.220 when you translate how people would have

01:13:35.320 interpreted something in an earlier time

01:13:37.460 to how we would interpret it now

01:13:39.540 as being a bad vibe

01:13:41.100 or bad energy

01:13:42.160 bad energy, there's always a phrase

01:13:47.200 which there is such a thing

01:13:49.380 I think as bad energy

01:13:51.320 there's such a thing as good energy

01:13:53.380 too

01:13:53.720 there's a lot of good energy here today

01:13:56.640 all around

01:13:58.080 oh yes, there really is

01:14:00.660 does anyone have

01:14:02.260 One more question.

01:14:03.240 One more, a little quick question.

01:14:06.860 Now, don't be shy.

01:14:08.040 It's a very warm and lovely company here.

01:14:11.300 Is there anyone from another country

01:14:13.740 that might have a perspective

01:14:17.120 or a question from your experience?

01:14:21.240 You're all from Scotland.

01:14:23.240 Where are you from, lady in the front? 0.57

01:14:26.700 Oh, come on.

01:14:28.120 Now, I was thinking obviously about Mexico

01:14:30.840 and I was thinking about our sort of approach to the dead

01:14:34.020 and of course we may have this wrong

01:14:35.700 and it may have become Disney-fied as well

01:14:37.880 but we have a perception here that Mexico really does

01:14:40.780 sort of celebrate and think about positively

01:14:43.740 your people that have passed.

01:14:45.380 Is that accurate?

01:14:47.100 So it resonated with your perception of that time of year.

01:14:51.420 Yeah, it is.

01:14:52.080 We are both from Mexico and yeah, definitely.

01:14:55.040 What's the word for which in...

01:14:56.480 Is it Bruja?

01:14:57.820 Bruja.

01:14:58.460 Bruja, yeah, yeah.

01:14:59.460 Yeah.

01:14:59.620 So do you have like a sense of witches then?

01:15:03.300 Are they still a part of modern Mexican cultural reference? 0.73

01:15:07.160 Oh, yes, they are.

01:15:07.960 And they're actually respected.

01:15:09.340 You can actually go to the brujo,

01:15:11.260 which is like a male brujo, a male witch, 0.95

01:15:16.040 and you can go and find them

01:15:18.160 and they will do like a potion for like

01:15:21.020 get your evil eye away or many things.

01:15:24.480 You can actually go and it's very respectful.

01:15:27.480 You don't want to mess with them still.

01:15:29.280 you're like you are still scared of them and respect and was there a history of which you

01:15:35.540 know which accusations in Mexico have they always been seen as something to be respected but

01:15:40.540 tolerated yeah I don't I don't know if there's anything like here or in Germany I live in

01:15:47.520 Germany so I am also aware of that I don't think we have anything like that because I think it was 1.00

01:15:55.860 more, how can I say it, the indigenous people

01:16:03.240 are still really strong in Mexico. 0.99

01:16:05.180 So it's colonized with Catholicism,

01:16:07.320 so they're believed originally.

01:16:09.520 It was either put away completely, 0.96

01:16:12.780 and the indigenous people kept their traditions 0.99

01:16:16.940 under the water.

01:16:17.860 They put their figures from their gods

01:16:22.560 behind the altars in the churches,

01:16:25.060 So they will still go there and pray to their gods.

01:16:28.340 And they're behind the veil almost.

01:16:29.660 Yes. 0.53

01:16:30.160 There was the hidden, the real religion.

01:16:32.460 Yes.

01:16:32.760 So at some point, the colonization took all over.

01:16:38.920 But there are still so many indigenous towns

01:16:42.880 that there's still all of these religions and beliefs.

01:16:48.860 And yeah, it's just part of the culture.

01:16:51.200 It's fascinating the way it's woven into.

01:16:53.260 I don't think there's a judge.

01:16:55.240 We don't judge that witchcraft part, and we just respect it.

01:17:00.120 It's just a part of the landscape.

01:17:01.320 Which sounds like it was kind of the case in Scotland then,

01:17:04.560 that it was just part of the psychological landscape,

01:17:08.040 and it was accepted.

01:17:09.360 Yes, I think so.

01:17:10.940 One of the pictures, we were talking about,

01:17:12.740 one picture, say, was on the white hair.

01:17:16.780 We might have to finish on the white hair.

01:17:19.760 We might have to finish on the bonnie white hair. 0.99

01:17:22.480 I think they were shapeshifters weren't they 1.00

01:17:25.060 well yes 0.99

01:17:25.900 this is my mother's brother

01:17:28.160 when he was quite young

01:17:29.780 and he used to like to go out shooting rabbits

01:17:32.420 and his favourite was to go down that glen

01:17:34.500 I showed you the picture of it

01:17:35.760 and shine his motorbike lights

01:17:38.560 late at night

01:17:39.240 he couldn't go up in the day too

01:17:40.580 but it was just they'd see the ears

01:17:42.420 and he was a crack shot

01:17:43.580 but he was there with another cousin

01:17:45.520 and he says stop stop stop stop

01:17:47.240 he was just a bit hysterical

01:17:49.600 if you shoot that one he said

01:17:52.100 you'll see her tomorrow 0.98

01:17:53.760 and he believed and he named

01:17:56.680 he said that's so and so

01:17:58.260 he named a local woman 0.56

01:17:59.860 who was known 0.75

01:18:02.300 he said for shape shifting

01:18:04.180 oh my goodness

01:18:05.240 yes

01:18:06.280 and that story I heard

01:18:10.340 I recorded a woman in Quebec

01:18:12.600 telling me the exact

01:18:14.680 same thing

01:18:15.740 and it was attached to church

01:18:18.240 here we are, it was in this area of Quebec

01:18:20.680 Stony Ruzakay

01:18:21.860 settled by Lewis people

01:18:23.800 going to church she said

01:18:25.760 and we, yes, she said we called 0.81

01:18:28.480 for another woman, it wasn't Sunday so 0.98

01:18:30.360 she'd been baking bread, she said go on without

01:18:32.500 me, go on without me, she was going by the way

01:18:34.620 to Tolstah, Quebec

01:18:35.800 and when they

01:18:38.580 got to church she was there ahead of them

01:18:40.120 and she said do you know this, she said the only

01:18:42.560 thing that passed us on the road was a hair

01:18:44.500 dun dun dun

01:18:47.560 thank you so much for listening to

01:18:50.640 today's podcast episode please follow us on all our social media so that is now because Claire's

01:18:57.060 forced me to do it TikTok as well as the established Instagram Facebook wee bit of

01:19:03.900 Twitter although I know a lot of us are pulling away from Twitter I'm still on there harassing

01:19:07.780 racists and sexists um where else Claire is that it um we're we're on blue sky as well as which

01:19:16.080 i can't do any more it's too much anyway see when you were talking about a therapist way i was a

01:19:23.860 wee bit surprised because not only are you working at full time not only are you a mother to three

01:19:29.780 children not only have you written a book and are doing a podcast but we also forgot to tell people

01:19:36.000 that we're going to be in an upcoming show soon and i would have thought that with all those things

01:19:42.260 ongoing what you might be doing was um having your raccoon raccoon as your therapist bring them

01:19:48.360 along those guys aren't therapists are you joking they're oh my god i work for them essentially

01:19:54.640 this whole facade that i'm training them i've had it with them they're just too hard work the

01:19:59.720 ravens are so much nicer than the raccoons but they're extremely demanding they're not even they

01:20:05.140 don't really understand the stress i'm under i was talking to them today about feeling under

01:20:09.200 were overwhelmed and one of them had the temerity to say to me was I actually trying to make time

01:20:14.380 for myself or was I using this as an excuse to be stressed okay maybe I'm talking about my son

01:20:19.720 rather than a raccoon but it's essentially the same thing okay I've had it I need to go for a

01:20:24.920 lie down Claire and on that we say goodbye to this week's episode. Sorry it completely breaks down

01:20:32.760 yes anyway we're going to be on a tv show called paranormal on the bbc look it up and we'll give

01:20:39.340 you more information on at the time we're going to be discussing scotland's uk's in fact last week

01:20:46.100 yeah that's on bbc3 okay see you later claire bye

01:21:02.760 If you'd like to know more about the Witches of Scotland

01:21:06.340 please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts

01:21:09.060 Sign up for our mailing list

01:21:11.160 at www.witchesofscotland.com

01:21:15.200 to keep updated with the campaign

01:21:17.000 On that site you'll be able to find how to link with us

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01:21:32.760 Thank you.

Witches of Scotland - April 21, 2025

EPISODE 76 DR MARGARET BENNETT

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