A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - The Trans Teen Imprisoned for Refusing to Join the IDF

00:00:00.000 In one sentence, why should people refuse to serve in the Israeli army?

00:00:04.540 Because there's a genocide and you don't enlist into an army that's committing a genocide.

00:00:09.300 Hello, hello, and welcome back to A Bit Fruity. 0.72

00:00:13.780 Ever since the Nakba in 1948, when Zionists violently expelled Palestinians from their land 0.51

00:00:20.520 to create the state of Israel, Israel has had conscription, or required military service,

00:00:26.860 for every Jew who lives there when they turn 18. It's like a military draft, only the draft 0.55

00:00:33.320 literally never ends. As of 2022, the minimum service time for men in the Israeli Defense

00:00:39.160 Forces, or the IDF, is two years and eight months. The minimum service for women is two years.

00:00:46.260 The IDF plays a huge role in Israeli society. I know Jews I grew up with in New Jersey and New

00:00:54.620 York, who, as teenagers, went on birthright. The fully funded propaganda vacation to Israel 0.69

00:01:00.940 meant to spiritually connect the Jewish diaspora to land that Palestinians still cannot return to. 0.78

00:01:07.420 And then they literally uprooted their lives in New Jersey or New York and moved to Israel to 0.75

00:01:13.540 serve in the military. I know, it's crazy. Refusal to fulfill your military service requirements

00:01:20.240 comes with punishments, namely jail time. Those sentences will range, and the Israeli

00:01:26.220 government has a practice of continuous imprisonment until young people submit to

00:01:30.520 their military service. There's also social consequences. Refusing military service out

00:01:36.060 of protest, especially for the sake of Palestinian life, is deeply unpopular in Israel. A teenager

00:01:42.380 who does this may be cut off from their families, their friends, their support systems, and Israeli

00:01:48.120 society. But as more Israeli teenagers come of age during Israel's ongoing genocide of

00:01:53.400 Palestinians, those are sacrifices that more and more of them are willing to take.

00:01:58.160 Today, in a kind of special episode, we're going to talk to Yonah Roseman, a 19-year-old

00:02:04.460 Israeli transgender young woman who has done just that. I first came across Yonah in a

00:02:11.000 video shared online last month of her and a group of other young refusers burning their

00:02:16.160 draft papers in a public protest in Tel Aviv. Now she's getting ready for prison. Yona,

00:02:23.000 welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me.

00:02:26.220 When I posted about that protest where you were burning your draft papers, you reached out to me

00:02:33.740 and you were like, I would love to come on your podcast and talk about this, but also like,

00:02:39.180 i'm going to jail so we need to do this now yeah so i have a few questions before we start

00:02:46.420 anything first of all when exactly are you preparing to go to prison and two how are you

00:02:52.440 doing right now um so my conscription date is august 17th so at the time of recording in 16 days

00:03:00.120 and that's the same day i'm going to be imprisoned likely how does that work how how does the process

00:03:07.200 of imprisonment work when you refuse?

00:03:09.620 So we show up at the draft office

00:03:12.380 because not showing up entails harsher punishment.

00:03:16.420 And we declare our refusal

00:03:18.920 and then a military commander

00:03:20.840 and preferably the highest ranked military commander,

00:03:25.780 like the commander of the draft office. 1.00

00:03:28.120 But she, it's a woman. 1.00

00:03:31.820 Feminist win. 1.00

00:03:33.600 This war criminal is a woman. 1.00

00:03:37.200 yeah so so the reason they wanted to be the highest ranked commander is because she didn't 1.00

00:03:41.440 she can give the maximum length of sentence which is 30 days but after you serve that sentence you

00:03:48.400 don't get exempted so then you're called back in and then you're sentenced again and that goes on

00:03:53.920 and on until the army gives up or you get an exemption somehow if you don't show up for a

00:04:00.640 couple of days but then do show up because if you want to have more than three days in between your

00:04:05.120 your imprisonment then you can do that for a couple of for a week or two and uh but then you

00:04:10.640 get sentenced uh for additional days so those people who've done like 45 days or even 45 days

00:04:16.680 with an additional sentence if they break the the conditions again so yeah so it's repeated sentences

00:04:22.140 of uh a month by default so do you have any idea like when it's all said and done how long you will

00:04:28.920 go to prison for no that's the thing i only know that i'll go to my next imprisonment since the

00:04:36.640 beginning of the genocide the longest someone has sat in military prison for refusal was 197 days

00:04:45.140 and that was when the army of the lented just like we're we're giving up like get out of here 0.67

00:04:50.940 Yeah. Before October 23, there was an unwritten policy that after between three and four months, they'd convene a committee that would exempt you. But when the war started, they decided that they're not going to convene that committee anymore. And they kept threatening our refusers that, oh, you're going to sit here for the entire three years.

00:05:15.720 Three years.

00:05:16.300 And we tested that and they didn't actually go through with that.

00:05:22.400 But it did take for about half a year.

00:05:26.180 And then my other question, how are you feeling right now?

00:05:29.720 Well, I'm pretty nervous.

00:05:32.440 Jail sounds not particularly fun.

00:05:36.160 Also, since I'm trans, I'll be probably put in isolation and we could talk about it more later, probably.

00:05:42.960 But also outside of jail, the entire last two years, but the last couple of weeks in particular have been just very despairing and depressing.

00:05:53.380 And it's really on my mind 24-7.

00:05:56.660 That's kind of been what has been holding my mood.

00:06:00.160 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

00:06:02.720 Can we jump into some, you know, of your early life?

00:06:07.000 You know, tell me where you grew up, what your early life was like.

00:06:10.860 So I grew up in a small town in the north of Israel, the 48 territories.

00:06:17.800 I grew up in what you call a left Zionist family.

00:06:21.120 You know, I was raised on what I would say like humanistic, universalist values.

00:06:27.100 The world occupation wasn't taboo in my house, but still, you know, very much a Zionist Israeli family was very much pro-conscription.

00:06:36.380 and, you know, they may want to have peace with the Palestinians,

00:06:39.780 but still, like, it's very clear we're, like, on which side we're on.

00:06:43.760 Everything that I've read about the experience of growing up in Israel

00:06:48.040 talks about, you know, being propagandized from a very young age

00:06:53.040 to fear and despise Palestinians.

00:06:56.680 Would you say that that was true for you or the people around you?

00:07:00.340 And, like, how much of a role does that propaganda about Palestinians

00:07:05.260 play into people's attitudes towards their Israeli identity and, you know, later joining

00:07:10.440 the military?

00:07:11.600 So I think since I lived in the North, in the Galilee, which is majority Palestinian,

00:07:17.000 and with the family that I grew up with, I think it was less so that Palestinians or

00:07:21.880 Arabs were demonized and dehumanized.

00:07:24.600 But the question of their equality was disconnected from the national question.

00:07:30.460 So I was raised in viewing them as equal. But still, you know, the line that I was taught since kindergarten was that we always wanted peace and the Palestinians always rejected peace and that they want to kill us and we just want to be safe.

00:07:45.160 That was very much the line in the entire education I've gone through from kindergarten to high school. 0.58

00:07:52.680 Would you say that that is standard for Israelis?

00:07:55.460 yeah yeah i volunteered at a at a school for uh like the last year and i i remember

00:08:03.360 when it was purim it was the science teacher it wasn't even like the history teacher it was the

00:08:08.040 science teacher it was a third grade class and and she talks to them about the story of purim

00:08:13.580 and how we beat the persians and and whatever and and then she said this is like how today we're

00:08:19.460 also gonna beat the iranians and they and no matter how much they want to destroy us we'll

00:08:24.640 destroy them yeah so so like everywhere it was a very um staunchly militaristic and nationalistic 0.98

00:08:31.260 line do you think that most israelis never challenged that as they grow up do you think

00:08:36.400 that it's absorbed as you know as your children and you just grow up always kind of feeling like

00:08:43.540 you have to have this military strength towards everyone around you yeah i think even if uh you

00:08:49.260 develop more moderate positions in regarding to like conflicts it still very much comes from

00:08:55.920 from like the lens of we're the moral army where the we have to be strong but for me was like

00:09:01.540 really hard as i was becoming more opposed to whatever thing my country stands for uh was not

00:09:08.340 opposing specific policies but but but breaking the mindset that what we're doing is is is

00:09:15.140 fundamentally wrong and and that the army lies and like so for example i believe like uh oh you

00:09:21.740 know i think the bombings are bad but i think hamas terrorists are hiding under like buildings

00:09:27.160 that those sort of lines like we're still the most small army in the world like those lines

00:09:32.120 are very much ingrained almost into your mindset even if you oppose in theory uh certain policies

00:09:39.300 like no matter how brutal the israeli regime can be it's always warranted it's always justified

00:09:45.780 because what they could do is worse yeah and also that it's like it has to be a lie that that that

00:09:51.520 what we're doing is that bad because it can't be and and because the army says otherwise and the

00:09:56.140 country says otherwise and it's it's our army and it's uh yeah i have so many things that i want to

00:10:02.100 ask you and so i don't want to get like stuck for too long on any one thing but while we're here

00:10:07.300 Right now in Israel, with finally so much of the rest of the world catching up to how brutal and horrible this genocide that they've been committing is, what is the feeling of people inside Israel toward the global reaction? Do they think that everybody is just misinformed?

00:10:27.520 You know, at this point, it's become really difficult to deny.

00:10:32.720 I think what helped for the majority of the genocide was that the media in Israel was very much complacent and just did not show any pictures from Gaza and called every international outlet or group who did talk about it falling for Hamas propaganda. 0.69

00:10:49.780 Hamas, exactly. Everyone's Hamas. 0.83

00:10:51.840 The A Bit Fruity podcast is Hamas.

00:10:53.780 Yes, I've been told this.

00:10:55.460 yeah oh well maybe maybe i'll be arrested for uh participating in enemy propaganda

00:11:02.780 wow we'll bail you out we'll bail you out that's what the patreon is for

00:11:07.360 i mean what can they do send me to jail oh the fact that you can have a sense of humor about

00:11:14.100 this is pretty wild anyways i think you know with with the pictures that have been coming

00:11:20.360 out of Gaza in recent weeks, it's become hard to deny and to ignore even for mainstream Israeli

00:11:25.720 media. And that has somewhat broke into the Israeli consciousness. But a lot of it is still

00:11:32.320 like, oh, you know, it is a catastrophe, but it's Hamas who's responsible for the starvation. 0.81

00:11:37.240 It's reluctant. So I think there has been some sort of shift, but the majority of society is 0.95

00:11:44.480 still very much for everything that's happening i want to talk a little bit about your relationship

00:11:50.800 to your queer identity and your gender because we're just going to talk about a lot of things

00:11:55.600 today and try to weave them all together in a meaningful way so talk to me about that like

00:12:00.900 how old were you when you you know realized you were queer what was your coming out journey like

00:12:06.900 because that is something that despite a lot of aspects of our lives being very different that

00:12:11.780 you do have in common with you know a lot of the people who listen to this podcast for example

00:12:16.360 well i don't know what's considered pretty late but i i i realized i was trans around

00:12:21.420 puberty when i was 13 i think i didn't grow up knowing a lot of trans people i knew a couple

00:12:27.140 of trans guys or trans musk people but no uh trans uh girls so it felt just very um distant

00:12:35.840 so i so it took me a bit to come to terms with it also it took me even longer to come out so

00:12:41.100 there was like a period of like a year or two where I was already out to my friends and even

00:12:46.620 like in class and in school but like to my parents I only came out when I was 16. It's crazy that you

00:12:53.120 think that that's late like I know people who came out in their 60s you know you're 19 right now.

00:12:58.960 Yeah no I don't think that's late it's just uh it felt it felt like a really long time. Oh of

00:13:05.360 course the the night i came out to my parents was the first time i got drunk so 0.95

00:13:09.860 good for you it happens to the best of us it does so we're gonna get into some pink washing stuff

00:13:18.920 because i really want to talk with you about that but you know one of israel's top you know 0.86

00:13:24.980 marketing strategies as a nation state in places like the u.s is like it's a it's a haven for

00:13:31.420 LGBTQ people. And that's why we must protect it at all costs. And we're going to get into

00:13:36.380 that in a second. But I want to know, like, what was it like growing up as a trans teenager

00:13:41.580 in Israel?

00:13:43.360 More than anything, it was a bit of a bureaucratic hell.

00:13:47.300 Say more. Bureaucratic hell.

00:13:49.100 Yeah. So I came up, I was pretty much only socializing with my friend group and they

00:13:53.940 were fine with it. So that wasn't an issue. I only came out to the rest of my school,

00:13:59.060 who is quite conservative after October 7th.

00:14:03.180 And by that time, my school was evacuated

00:14:05.140 since it's in the Falmouth.

00:14:07.080 So I didn't see my classmates at all.

00:14:10.200 So I kind of dodged a bullet there.

00:14:13.340 So the main headache I had to deal with

00:14:15.620 was like trying to get on hormones.

00:14:17.920 There's only one gender clinic in the entire country 1.00

00:14:20.460 that serves trans kids.

00:14:22.880 Wow.

00:14:23.300 And it's in Tel Aviv,

00:14:24.340 which is two and a half hours away from where I lived.

00:14:27.300 And it was a huge waiting list.

00:14:30.860 And then until they approved me getting on hormones, it was also longer.

00:14:36.020 And then from there, getting to the National Health Insurance to recognize it.

00:14:42.160 It's a really long bureaucratic process.

00:14:45.460 Generally, I grew up in quite a liberal environment.

00:14:49.120 I think the most transphobia I faced was only after being public about my leftist activism.

00:14:57.300 So that's when people start purposefully calling you slurs and misgendering you.

00:15:01.400 And, you know, in protests, like the, like people shout at me, like, what are you?

00:15:05.760 Are you a man?

00:15:06.260 Are you a woman?

00:15:07.180 I had a couple of not very fun interactions with the police when I was arrested.

00:15:12.020 I was arrested a couple of times.

00:15:13.240 For your activism?

00:15:14.700 Yes, yes.

00:15:15.680 In protests, yeah.

00:15:17.100 I was arrested a total of six times.

00:15:19.560 During my first, I was arrested once a year ago and five times in the last three months.

00:15:25.880 so in that arrest a year ago

00:15:28.820 the cops beat me up quite bad

00:15:30.680 and after I was at the police station

00:15:32.900 I had to go to the hospital

00:15:34.140 but that was a repression for being an activist

00:15:37.400 less so than for being transgender

00:15:38.640 but in the investigation itself

00:15:40.740 the investigator just refused to gender me correctly

00:15:43.460 refused to call me by my chosen name

00:15:45.080 despite me constantly correcting her

00:15:48.840 and almost every arrest

00:15:52.140 I'm called like the it

00:15:54.100 or the half-half 1.00

00:15:55.900 or the they

00:15:56.760 or even after I changed my name

00:15:59.380 they searched for my previous name

00:16:02.560 in the document

00:16:03.460 they like making

00:16:05.400 an issue out of it

00:16:07.400 and they use your lack of

00:16:09.900 Israeli nationalism

00:16:11.460 as an excuse to be transphobic

00:16:14.040 it sounds like 0.76

00:16:14.840 yeah

00:16:15.320 because you're against the state 0.87

00:16:18.860 and you're a terrorist

00:16:20.300 or a terrorist supporter

00:16:21.320 then it's justified

00:16:22.760 and you can throw all that

00:16:24.100 who got a massive mask out of the window.

00:16:26.140 Oh, God, that's so, that is so horrible

00:16:29.240 and also so predictable.

00:16:31.360 Because I don't know, like, I'm always preaching

00:16:33.240 about how, like, all of these systems of human rights

00:16:36.420 or denial of human rights, like, they go hand in hand.

00:16:39.680 And so it's, like, the second that you refuse,

00:16:42.060 like, nationalism during a genocide,

00:16:43.940 they're like, well, so you don't get your, you know,

00:16:46.500 you don't get your trans rights then.

00:16:48.280 Yeah, and I think, like, one of the biggest, like,

00:16:51.060 cultural shocks for me it was for like the first year of the genocide there almost became an

00:16:56.640 association of queer and trans identity with like the columbia university protesters like i was i

00:17:01.880 was but like specifically it's like it's this stereotype of uh blue-haired kofia wearing

00:17:07.920 protester and like yeah like i don't know i've i've been a queer activist for a while and it's

00:17:15.760 And I've always lived here, but that's the association.

00:17:21.720 Not that it's a particularly bad thing to be compared to,

00:17:24.740 but it's very much like a stereotype now.

00:17:28.140 I mean, they do that a ton in the U.S.

00:17:29.960 They're always like, oh, the purple hair protesters

00:17:32.540 on Columbia University. 0.98

00:17:33.820 And it's like, well, a lot of times queer people understand 0.99

00:17:37.220 how the denial of human rights works 0.90

00:17:39.320 and don't want that to happen to other people.

00:17:42.780 Like, I don't know.

00:17:43.300 I guess I wish people understood that better. 0.78

00:17:45.260 Like, well, should we talk about pinkwashing?

00:17:48.100 We could. 0.99

00:17:48.640 I would love to because I never shut up about this topic and I feel really lucky to be able

00:17:54.300 to talk to you about it.

00:17:55.380 So one of the arguments that Israel propagandists, I can't even call these people simply pro-Israel

00:18:01.760 anymore because I think it's like too dignifying of a label for a position that is at this

00:18:07.220 point purely genocidal.

00:18:09.000 One of the arguments that they make, which has been very successful in Western countries 1.00

00:18:14.580 like the United States, is that Israel is the only place in the Middle East that values queer 0.57

00:18:20.540 rights. It's what we call the pinkwashing of genocide, the idea that colonization and 0.85

00:18:26.460 occupation and genocide are excusable if the people committing it are socially liberal or

00:18:32.880 claimed to be. I have lost American queer friends of mine to fervent Zionism, and this idea of 0.57

00:18:40.960 Israel as a safe haven for queer people played a huge role in their brainwashing. I get comments 0.97

00:18:47.520 online that you've probably seen, you, Yona, or anyone listening to this podcast, every single

00:18:52.980 day telling me how I'd be treated as a gay person in Gaza. Go to Gaza, you'll be thrown off our roof. 0.99

00:18:59.360 And therefore, I should support Israeli genocide. And so my question for you, like, as someone who 0.99

00:19:06.340 is trans and who grew up in israel i feel like you're in a really unique position when it comes

00:19:11.880 to this issue was israeli society pinkwashed to you growing up like is that an argument and an

00:19:20.480 attitude that exists within israel or is it just sort of like a global pr strategy when i wasn't

00:19:26.260 targeted as a or before i was targeted as a selecting activist so just as a someone growing

00:19:32.100 up in israel or even as a queer person growing up it's not it's not much of a propaganda line

00:19:37.620 it's not like oh you know israel is so good for you even like the queer discourse that's confined

00:19:42.900 to zionism and instead of israel like recognizes that we're a long way we have a long way to go 0.53

00:19:48.320 there's there's violence against queer people and we don't have a right to marry and there's a lot

00:19:54.140 of restrictions on adoption and transitioning has a lot of barriers around it so both socially

00:20:00.400 and legally there's an active struggle

00:20:02.760 even for like

00:20:04.100 queer Jews within

00:20:06.600 Israel so that's not something that

00:20:08.500 is propagandized by default but

00:20:10.420 if you're suddenly also

00:20:12.700 against the occupation

00:20:14.520 against genocide and the oppression of

00:20:16.480 Palestinians then you'll start

00:20:17.880 you get called ungrateful

00:20:19.440 for everything that the state provides you

00:20:22.560 with the line that oh you

00:20:24.580 should go to Gaza I could be thrown off a roof

00:20:26.500 whatever it's very common

00:20:28.320 do people say that to you yeah yeah i've heard people say it to me and cops say to me it's it's

00:20:34.320 very common i think netanyahu even said that queers for firestone is like chickens for kfc's 0.99

00:20:39.440 netanyahu did say that and it's like netanyahu fucking hates queer people of his own volition 0.99

00:20:45.100 not with regard to anything else like that is a far right man you know in a lot of pride 0.99

00:20:51.700 parades in recent years we have had like a block against pinkwashing talks about the intersection

00:20:57.200 between the oppression of Palestinians and oppression of queer people and how Israel

00:21:01.560 blackmails queer Palestinians. Do you want to explain that? Because I've seen stories about

00:21:06.140 the blackmailing of queer Palestinians by Israel. Yeah, there have been testimonies from

00:21:11.280 intelligence officers who have testified that this is something that they've had to do or

00:21:16.920 tasked with doing or did. Essentially, like officers contacting queer Palestinians,

00:21:22.000 telling them that unless they give them intel on wanted people, family members, 0.62

00:21:29.000 just people in the street, they'll out them to their environment.

00:21:33.280 In other cases, the granting of asylum has been conditioned on giving intel. 0.88

00:21:38.720 So it's kind of like using queer rights as a thing to hang over Palestinians' heads 0.81

00:21:44.580 or use against them if they don't cooperate with the Israeli regime. 0.90

00:21:49.480 Yeah. And for example, in 2023, there was a Palestinian from Nablus, whose name was Zuhair Talith, who was executed for spying for Israel after being blackmailed by Israeli intelligence for being queer.

00:22:07.940 So he was a gay man who was targeted by the Israeli military, blackmailed into spying for the Israeli military, and then killed by his own government for doing that. Jesus.

00:22:17.880 He said that Shin Bet, the Israeli intelligence force, had an illicit video of him doing something with a male partner. 0.89

00:22:27.360 So, I mean, in some senses, it sounds like the Israeli military doing what they claim will happen to gay people in Gaza, doing that to gay Palestinians. 0.55

00:22:37.760 Yeah, essentially. I mean, they are contributing to the danger that gay Palestinians have to live through. 0.86

00:22:45.940 And that's, you know, without even mentioning the fact that Israel has killed more queer Palestinians than any militant group or conservative force by virtue of killing 100,000 Palestinians in Gaza. 0.92

00:22:58.320 There isn't a spatial dome that protects specifically queer Palestinians. 0.99

00:23:02.520 Israel kills all Palestinians. 0.97

00:23:04.740 And it exploits the vulnerability of queer Palestinians, which puts them further in danger. 0.95

00:23:08.720 a quick break from the episode to give a shout out to incogni for sponsoring this show and making

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00:25:10.540 the code fruity now let's get back to the episode you mentioned you know something about where you'd

00:25:19.140 be placed in prison in israeli prison as a trans person for refusing can you talk more about that

00:25:25.180 yeah so because i'm trans well there isn't a written policy that we know of there was a

00:25:32.100 transgender uh refuser in march my name is ella she's a close friend of mine she she was placed in

00:25:39.500 in women's prison but apart from the morning break and the evening break uh which are both

00:25:46.100 an hour so for 22 hours a day she was kept in in a room alone in complete solitary jesus which

00:25:52.720 even the regular solitary section in the military prison is in couples so there's always the person

00:26:01.820 that gets sent to isolation and the person that is accompanying them so for her it was just her

00:26:06.480 And for 15 hours a day, she was awake.

00:26:10.740 All she had to do was sit on her bed.

00:26:13.020 She couldn't even lie on her back or like on the wall or on her bag.

00:26:19.220 Yeah, that's all she was able to do.

00:26:21.440 So we don't know what will happen with me.

00:26:23.940 For the last week of her imprisonment, she was allowed to do like the walk you can do,

00:26:31.460 which is seen as like a reward.

00:26:32.980 If you're a good prisoner, then they let you do certain tasks like cleaning or readying the dining room. 0.57

00:26:39.900 And also sewing up uniforms and the eye coverings that they put on Palestinian prisoners, which if I get told to do that, I'm not going to do it. 0.92

00:26:49.380 Oh, Jesus Christ.

00:26:51.400 But yeah, they want the prisoners to be productive.

00:26:54.300 So for the last week, she was allowed to do that. 0.58

00:26:56.080 And we don't know if it's because of pressure we put on them for them putting a transgender prisoner in isolation or just because she really was in the eyes a good prisoner that was allowed to get that reward.

00:27:07.000 I believe I will also be put in a similar situation, which is scary because I'm a social person and I don't like being alone. 0.65

00:27:14.600 I mean, it just sounds like the Israeli government using queer rights as kind of like a carrot to dangle over your head as long as you fall in line with this genocidal regime.

00:27:27.400 Like, it doesn't sound like a place that authentically values human rights for queer people.

00:27:31.840 Yeah. For example, I was contacted by the IDF as a gender officer. And the gender officer is in charge of like, talking with transgender soldiers and like making sure they are in a unit that is accepting of them and that they get the accommodations that they need. But then if I go to prison, then I'll be kept in isolation. So it's yeah, it's conditional, in a sense.

00:27:55.420 I guess I want to ask you as a trans-Israeli, because this pinkwashing tactic has been, like I said, it's been so successful, like where I live. And it's seduced people that like I was friends with. What would you say to people, especially people outside of Israel, who have bought into this argument and continue to use it to justify Israel's atrocities? 0.80

00:28:21.500 Well, honestly, the bottom line isn't how Israel treats queer people.

00:28:25.660 It could be the most safe haven for queer people as it claims to be. 0.81

00:28:32.140 And it would still be a country that's committing genocide and killing 100,000 Palestinians. 0.90

00:28:37.400 It is important to outline how it lies about that, just like it lies about everything. 0.91

00:28:44.020 How it lies about being a utopia for queer people? 0.93

00:28:46.900 Yeah, yeah. Just like how it lies about the atrocities it commits in Gaza and how it lies about its treatment of Palestinians within Israel. It constantly lies. And it's important to point out that this is also a lie and propaganda. But the bottom line is that it doesn't matter. There is no amount of progressivism a country can achieve that will permit it to commit genocide and masturbation. And that's the bottom line. 0.97

00:29:14.620 I want to talk a little bit about your decision to refuse service and about kind of what happens

00:29:21.400 when you do. Could you talk to me a little bit about the movement to, they call it conscientious

00:29:27.960 objectors or refuseniks. There's a historical precedent for this movement. I was wondering

00:29:32.880 if you could tell me a little bit about that. Yeah. So as long as there has been conscription,

00:29:39.100 there has been refuseniks. Refuseniks is the name that they give to people who

00:29:43.940 refuse service it's sort of a nickname that we've uh adopted it has other connotations with jews from

00:29:50.700 uh ussr but yeah there have been people who refused uh mandatory service for as long as

00:29:56.940 there has been conscription in your intro when you mentioned that israel has been employing

00:30:02.440 conscription since 1948 i was actually about to say that even before the foundation of israel back

00:30:09.100 1947, many

00:30:11.020 Zionist militias would go to

00:30:12.720 the camps of displaced Holocaust survivors

00:30:15.320 and conscript Jews

00:30:17.080 from there. There was even a Yiddish

00:30:19.020 play made about it that is

00:30:21.060 supposed to be like an indictment against

00:30:23.120 a fictional draft avoider.

00:30:25.600 It's insane how

00:30:26.620 for how long Israel has employed it. 0.99

00:30:29.820 And yeah, we have testimonies

00:30:31.500 and letters, even from

00:30:33.160 1948, of

00:30:34.340 people who refused the

00:30:37.080 military service.

00:30:37.820 And in the last couple of decades, it has taken form in two major ways.

00:30:45.300 The first one is reservist refusers, people who did do army service, but then refused the reserve cause during specific wars that they were in opposition to.

00:30:57.480 This started around the first war in Lebanon back in the 1980s.

00:31:02.180 is that because so my understanding is that you get drafted initially to do your idf service and

00:31:08.340 then like afterwards they put you in the reserve yes yes and essentially you have to every couple

00:31:14.660 of years you have to do training and when there's a war or another incident then they send out a

00:31:21.320 bunch of reserve orders to people who are listed as active reservists and you stay on that list of

00:31:27.960 people in the reserves until you're 40 yeah i think 40 or 45 even i'm not sure exactly what's

00:31:34.120 the cutoff but yeah for decades around then there were people who refused the reserve services but

00:31:39.660 this was mostly like conditional uh refusal they refused to a specific war or to serve in the

00:31:45.440 occupied territories that sort of stuff later i think around the 90s uh there started things

00:31:51.320 called like uh which is like letters of 12th graders uh which is just generations of 12th

00:31:57.900 letters who would together sign a letter

00:31:59.960 of refusers, and this is something that is still

00:32:01.960 being done. Back in the early 2000s,

00:32:04.320 there was the biggest letter in history.

00:32:06.920 I think it was

00:32:07.580 signed by around 350 people.

00:32:10.200 This was during the second intifada.

00:32:11.900 And five of them

00:32:13.700 were sentenced

00:32:15.660 not just to military jail,

00:32:18.140 but then they were tried in civilian

00:32:19.820 court and sent to civilian jail as well.

00:32:21.900 And they served a total of two years,

00:32:24.340 of two full years in prison.

00:32:25.940 And that was like a really big controversy around then because they actually like went on trial and challenged the idea of conscription.

00:32:34.880 And specifically, I'm a member of a group called Mesavot.

00:32:39.220 Mesavot means we refuse in the female form in Hebrew.

00:32:43.720 It was founded a decade ago in 2016.

00:32:47.680 It's sort of a network of refusers throughout the years.

00:32:50.800 we we're not just um active around the time of our refusal but also for refusers in in following

00:32:58.400 years and before and i for example have been active in mr vot for around two years before

00:33:02.860 you could ever even refuse you weren't old enough you were a minor exactly yeah and it's a group that

00:33:10.000 it gives us a platform and like a group to be active with and we organize protests and we

00:33:14.340 organize specifically like protests on the day of the refusal of um different refusers for example

00:33:19.940 Well, yesterday, there were two of my friends, I and I and Yuval, went to jail for refusing.

00:33:24.380 And we went to the draft office with them and protested there.

00:33:27.640 And we also protested in front of the military jail when the refusers are in jail.

00:33:32.000 It gives us legal support and media support and parental support.

00:33:35.260 So it's really nice.

00:33:37.500 And most importantly, it gives us like a community.

00:33:40.360 Like refusing is an act that is really just so out of the consensus in Israeli society that it really helps to not be alone in it.

00:33:49.940 And that's the biggest advantage.

00:33:52.500 So that's my political home, essentially.

00:33:56.340 Can I ask, how old were you when you learned about the movement to refuse military service?

00:34:03.160 And how did you learn about it?

00:34:04.760 Because I would imagine that officials in Israel try to keep a cap on how people find out about that kind of thing.

00:34:12.820 Yeah.

00:34:13.160 So for a while, I knew I didn't want to serve, but it didn't really look like an option.

00:34:18.900 I really didn't know about it.

00:34:20.400 And then I went to this Israeli-Palestinian summer camp, 0.90

00:34:22.900 and the assistant guide was a former refuser. 0.91

00:34:29.460 And at some point, she talked about her journey of refusing.

00:34:35.300 And it was only then that that concept was really demystified for me.

00:34:39.260 Before then, I already started finding out about it

00:34:41.360 because I was going to protest against occupation, against apartheid,

00:34:44.900 apartheid and it was there that i met other people my age who were also activists and they were

00:34:50.860 already involved in those sort of circles but it was only then that i properly like heard about it

00:34:56.340 and and it was after that that i joined the support myself and around a month later there was

00:35:01.440 a big event of like us releasing another like refusal letter that was signed by 250 teenagers

00:35:08.340 and i remember when i was active there and i actually talking to people who have went through

00:35:13.580 it and seeing that, you know, there's a lot of fear I'm going on not serving.

00:35:17.880 Like there's, like they tell you that you won't be able to find a job and you won't

00:35:21.220 be able to get housing and a lot of that stuff.

00:35:24.720 And I think just seeing that people continued with their life and that's what they want

00:35:28.160 completely ostracized really helped dispel the fear around it for me.

00:35:33.300 And I think being active in it and like there's something about like taking my freedom into

00:35:39.660 my own hand and saying no even even at the cost of my physical freedom that was very liberating

00:35:45.660 and it was that feeling that convinced me that this was something i wanted to do myself and that

00:35:51.460 this was a price i was willing to pay what is the attitude of young israelis generally speaking

00:35:58.040 towards the idf like do most young people want to serve out of patriotism do people not want to

00:36:05.500 serve but they fear the repercussions so they do it anyway most people want to serve young israelis

00:36:12.660 are very much captured by the nationalistic narrative that everyone has to serve and that

00:36:18.540 it's a it's a good thing and and and and then you know that the army the army makes an active

00:36:24.540 efforts to encourage teenagers to enlist so for example when i was in high school we were sent to

00:36:30.320 like a military camp for a week where we wore uniform and held weapons and and and had our own

00:36:36.900 like miniature military training to to make it seem like fun and like this is something that we

00:36:41.840 want we would want to do and that and there's in a lot of schools including mine there are like

00:36:46.900 teacher uh officers who are there to like to help you with your studies but then also

00:36:52.220 check you up on like how how you're doing with the different military orders and if you're if

00:36:58.520 there's specific roles that you want to be in and if you got like calls to to um try to to get into

00:37:03.760 specific units or walls and they often talk about how you know the if you go to intelligence you can

00:37:10.000 then find a job in high tech and it's seen as a very like personally uplifting uh move to to enlist

00:37:16.060 and to make to do like meaningful service how old are you and and how old are israelis when they

00:37:22.420 start kind of like really pushing that onto you as like an integral part of israeli life so your

00:37:28.100 first call to the draft office is in 11th grade for me it was just before i turned um 17 it's

00:37:36.180 between 16 and 17 but you go to the draft office and go through different like health checkups and

00:37:41.160 then interview and they ask you which roles you want to do and and from that there's a consistent

00:37:45.560 journey of like you get uh letters inviting you to go to the air force trial or to like the elite

00:37:53.380 combat units trial, intelligence

00:37:55.660 trial, etc. It's funny,

00:37:57.160 my refusal is in 16 days and I

00:37:59.520 still get messages telling me to go to

00:38:01.400 some computer unit

00:38:03.020 asking me to

00:38:05.360 do specific tests so I could go there

00:38:07.540 and I don't think they got the memo.

00:38:09.240 I'm not interested.

00:38:11.400 Yeah, I don't think so.

00:38:13.280 They're not listening to a bit fruity.

00:38:15.540 No.

00:38:17.120 Yeah, for a while I got a lot of calls from the Air Force

00:38:19.560 and I'm like, I'm not interested.

00:38:21.080 um and they really didn't let go and for a lot of schools the specifically in um less fortunate

00:38:28.820 like socioeconomic backgrounds like the school i went to the army encourages the thing where

00:38:34.180 they give the first order to the military for for the entire like grade at the same day so you go

00:38:39.740 with your entire school instead of because because a lot of time you know it's not that people don't

00:38:43.960 want to serve but they're too lazy to show up you know there's 60 years who don't want to take a bus

00:38:49.700 at 6 a.m. to a different city

00:38:51.800 to a random, like a random

00:38:53.320 draft office. So they

00:38:54.760 encouraged the school to send all of the

00:38:57.540 grades together as like a field trip

00:38:59.380 to the draft office.

00:39:02.060 Which was an interesting experience

00:39:03.720 for me not being out yet to

00:39:05.580 my school, but the army knowing I'm trans.

00:39:08.400 So then they

00:39:09.660 were like, well, they want to go to the boys

00:39:11.680 interview, to the girls interview,

00:39:13.580 and they were on different floors of the

00:39:15.680 building. It was a whole thing.

00:39:18.740 I mean,

00:39:19.420 Look, being from the United States, we are not at all free of our own awful military industrial complex, you know, predatory practices on teenagers, especially from less fortunate socioeconomic backgrounds.

00:39:34.400 We are not exempt from that critique here at all. But it does seem like a particularly unique level of fucked up that they require every child to engage on this level and like convince you that like your upwards mobility in society will be dependent on how well you perform your military service, like as children like that, that, I mean, not to sound crass, but that's like, that seems like very fucked up. 0.98

00:40:02.080 Yeah. And then you have teenagers, 18-year-old teenagers, signing not just on the three-year conscription, but on the academic programs in the army that then force you to do additional years of professional service after your mandatory service. 0.94

00:40:19.360 Yeah. So I have friends who are from my grade who have signed a contract of like nine years with the army, which is insane.

00:40:25.800 and this is something that they already had to aim for before they were even adults it's it's it's

00:40:31.960 insane it's batshit it is batshit i would like to take a quick break from the show to thank rocket

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00:42:15.180 slash fruity. That is rocketmoney.com slash fruity. Thank you so much to Rocket Money. And now let's

00:42:22.300 get back to the episode. A lot of people around the world who are looking at this genocide Israel 0.86

00:42:29.580 is committing will say, and they do say online, you know, there's no way I would ever join the

00:42:35.400 Israeli military. There's no way I would participate in that. And obviously, and I think you'd agree

00:42:40.520 with this. They're correct. It's not a morally complicated decision to make. As you said in

00:42:47.540 another interview that I watched with you, if a military is committing a genocide, you don't

00:42:51.160 enlist in that military. At the same time, though, I want to paint a picture for people of what it

00:42:57.440 means socially and legally, which we've talked about the legal aspect a little bit, to refuse

00:43:03.200 service in a society that shuns people who make that decision. Could you talk to me about how

00:43:08.820 refusers are treated what was the reaction from your family your friends etc um so i i there's a

00:43:16.580 lot of uh there's a lot of factors that play into it military service is is seen by like mainstream

00:43:22.460 society as the tickets and gateway into israeli citizenship so if you don't serve then you're not

00:43:28.640 a real participant of society and your political opinions matter less and you shouldn't be

00:43:33.620 prioritized in academy or healthcare services or welfare or whatever.

00:43:40.060 If you haven't served in the military, then you haven't done your duty,

00:43:44.480 and it's only after you do your duty that you can demand your rights,

00:43:48.300 essentially, is a common talking point.

00:43:51.500 And, you know, there are certain demographics who don't get conscripted

00:43:55.900 for one reason or another, and there's a lot of antagonism against them

00:44:00.240 for that because they're seen as not giving their part.

00:44:03.620 So, I mean, it almost sounds like they kind of like, I don't know, again, with the dangling carrot metaphor, but it's like you earn your full participation in Israeli society through like participating in the enforcement of Israeli violence.

00:44:17.980 Yes. Yeah. And in a lot of ways, like serving in the military is that gateway. It is. It is an inherent part of Israeli nationalism. So, yeah, Israeli identity is in large part made up by it.

00:44:33.300 So not serving in the army is a rejection of Israeli identity in at least some ways.

00:44:39.540 I've had classmates who cut contact with me over my decision to refuse.

00:44:45.060 A lot of my friends these days are essentially made up of the people who are with me in my activism.

00:44:50.140 So for them, obviously, it's not something that they have to contend with.

00:44:54.940 It's a good thing.

00:44:56.480 For my family, it was difficult.

00:44:58.560 I've had my parents tell me pretty difficult things over the years since I decided to do it.

00:45:04.140 But I think they, you know, they still, you know, love me as their child and want me to feel like they're behind me, even if they don't support my actions.

00:45:12.360 So it's gotten better, but they have not been particularly supportive of my decision.

00:45:18.480 But I think, I do think it's important to outline that it really does not, at least in my eyes, it does not matter how difficult that decision, or like how much difficulties it entails. Because the decision itself is very trivial. And there's a reason I insist on saying that when people ask me, what are the consequences? Because I think it's interesting to talk about the consequences.

00:45:44.980 Obviously, it's not nothing that I'm, that there's socialization and that I'm going to jail or whatever, but there's a genocide and it doesn't matter like what price there is to pay when the other option is to serve in an army that's committing genocide. That's something that I'm very adamant about.

00:46:01.220 So Israel will often brand itself, you know, the only democracy in the Middle East, which is why people in the United States should unconditionally support it. Like pinkwashing, this is a fallacy in my eyes. You know, Israel isn't a full democracy. It has occupied Palestinian land and turned Palestinians into second class citizens, subject to Israeli control, but with no voting power.

00:46:26.700 So there's that. But also, you know, you're about to go to jail for refusing to join Israel's genocidal military regime. To me, that doesn't feel like the working of a functioning democracy. And so I guess my question for you is, like, do you think Israel is democratic?

00:46:47.540 um no okay i mean it's very simple i mean when a country has millions of subjects that are

00:46:59.460 deprived of voting rights and that are and that live under a different uh legal system then it's

00:47:05.400 not a democracy but but it goes further than that the entirety of like the israeli legal system

00:47:10.480 is built to enshrine the supremacy of jews over palestinians and it's not just in the west bank

00:47:15.960 or just in Gaza, it's 0.99

00:47:17.900 throughout the entire

00:47:19.460 it's throughout all of Palestine, from the river to the sea

00:47:22.060 there's really one regime there 0.98

00:47:23.620 and that's its ultimate goal 1.00

00:47:25.020 and this is true for Palestinians who do hold

00:47:27.900 Israeli citizenship as well

00:47:29.200 and obviously, you know, when a state

00:47:31.500 is committing genocide

00:47:33.040 and is acting in such

00:47:35.820 an immoral

00:47:37.460 and evil, you know

00:47:38.940 way, then to

00:47:41.380 uphold that system

00:47:42.620 it needs to continuously employ

00:47:45.100 un-democratic measures and it's neat it needs to suppress dissent and outlaw dissent and and jail

00:47:49.720 people and they're like falsely accused uh accused them of being terrorists and it's it's unavoidable

00:47:55.860 when this is the sort of system it's trying to uphold so yeah there's nothing democratic about it

00:48:00.720 i'm just i find it so valuable to ask you these things because it's like these these are the

00:48:07.480 things that like americans around me and around the communities that i grew up in as like an

00:48:13.440 american jew these are the talking points they repeat over and over and over again it's all like

00:48:19.220 you know well we have we have to unconditionally support israeli genocide of course they don't

00:48:24.260 call it genocide but they'll they'll say that we have to support it because israel's democracy and

00:48:28.980 you're you know you're a queer person imagine the middle east without israel whatever whatever

00:48:34.100 and it's like i don't know i feel like all of these arguments are just so paper thin especially 0.68

00:48:40.500 once you talk to someone who's actually living through these like this apparent utopian liberal

00:48:46.560 society that people who don't live there claim it to be i think the there's such a dissonance 0.98

00:48:52.940 from that vision once you have like a single conversation with the palestinian that's living 0.98

00:48:58.200 under that system it's not does it's it's not bridgeable that entire discourse is just layers 0.98

00:49:05.080 upon layers of propaganda and it's like if you just look at the reality in its eyes it's there's

00:49:11.980 no there's no way you can actually believe it as an israeli 19 year old you have made the most

00:49:19.940 ethical decision available to you i keep saying that you're 19 because i just cannot believe

00:49:24.120 you're so young and i also hate not being the youngest person in a conversation anymore

00:49:28.780 it is what it is i'm i'm making peace but um you know you've made the most ethical decision

00:49:37.820 available to you and obviously you're going to prison for it for the rest of us you know

00:49:44.860 who are privileged enough to not be in that position what do you want people listening

00:49:50.820 to do to continue to oppose genocide?

00:49:54.960 Well, I think the bottom line of my refusal is that no weapons, no aid, no resources,

00:50:03.080 no cooperation should be done with a state that's committing genocide. 0.82

00:50:08.560 And of course, you know, that's not to say that before October 7th, Israel was a moral 0.69

00:50:13.580 state that, you know, was suddenly corrupted. 0.98

00:50:15.620 Obviously, it's a state that's upholding an apartheid system

00:50:20.100 and that's been committing ethnic cleansing for 77 years. 0.57

00:50:23.440 But really, the reality as it exists today

00:50:26.340 makes the question of what needs to be done very simple.

00:50:29.600 And it's that we need to employ every tool that we have

00:50:33.140 to withhold as much help as we can from that country

00:50:38.860 to continue advancing its goals.

00:50:41.400 And for me, it's withholding myself as a resource

00:50:45.200 for the continuation of the genocide.

00:50:48.580 And for people living abroad,

00:50:50.680 it's putting pressure on governments, institutions, businesses

00:50:55.040 to cut all ties and aid with the state of Israel

00:50:58.360 and to take matters into their own hands

00:51:00.700 and block the flow of weapons into the state of Israel.

00:51:04.720 And it's not an easy task.

00:51:06.480 I don't want to act like it is,

00:51:09.160 but it's very much what needs to be done.

00:51:11.460 And it's what I'd encourage everyone to do

00:51:14.420 is to find a group that that's the line

00:51:17.320 that they want to accept as much pressure as possible

00:51:20.180 and organize with them and do it

00:51:22.440 because that's what needs to be done.

00:51:24.160 Do you have any plans for when you get out of prison?

00:51:27.220 That's a good question.

00:51:30.360 I want to be a journalist.

00:51:32.700 I'm a writer already.

00:51:34.100 I write an article for a couple of months,

00:51:36.300 but I want to do it more.

00:51:37.800 I don't know.

00:51:38.600 There's something about this period that I'm at

00:51:41.120 that makes things more simple

00:51:43.280 because it's almost like I don't need to deeply think about what I need to do

00:51:48.660 because it's very clear that what I need to do is to refuse my military service

00:51:51.900 and then I'll be in jail.

00:51:53.460 In jail, there's also not much more I could do.

00:51:55.620 After that, I want to continue doing what I can.

00:52:00.260 Hopefully, you know, I live in some illusion

00:52:02.620 that maybe by the time I get out of one page and set anymore.

00:52:05.500 And then I'll continue doing what needs to be done

00:52:08.400 against the rest of the atrocities that my country commits.

00:52:12.280 but i don't know i want to continue doing what i can maybe studying at some point well if you want

00:52:18.920 to come back on the a bit fruity podcast after you're out of prison i'll be more than happy to

00:52:23.740 welcome you back yona yeah that's a life goal for sure

00:52:29.080 permanent permanent co-host once you've uh once you're out of israeli prison you can also do like

00:52:37.560 you can check up on me in between imprisonments if you want oh that would be awesome yeah no yeah

00:52:45.540 wait let's do that let's if yeah let me know in the comments i mean i actually kind of think that

00:52:51.760 i've already decided i want to do that would be that would be great yeah we can also bring like

00:52:56.220 my partner who's refusing in october oh wait what your partner is also refusing yeah yeah so

00:53:03.020 So, yeah, it's a bit funny to bring it up an hour into the recording, I suppose.

00:53:07.980 Yeah, I live with my partner.

00:53:09.620 Their conscription date is in October, and he's also going to declare his refusal.

00:53:14.880 And she's sitting right next to me, actually, and giving me faces.

00:53:20.260 Hi, partner.

00:53:22.340 Hi.

00:53:23.180 My name is Danielle.

00:53:24.640 Hello.

00:53:25.820 Hi, Danielle.

00:53:28.360 Well, maybe we're going to have to do this with you in October.

00:53:32.820 I would love that.

00:53:33.660 I would absolutely love that.

00:53:34.820 Well, I can't say enough how, you know,

00:53:38.360 I know you're not doing this for the admiration of anybody.

00:53:42.340 And I know you're doing it because it's the right thing to do.

00:53:45.340 But, you know, I feel really privileged to have not had to make a decision

00:53:50.800 like the one that you're both making, I've just learned.

00:53:54.040 And I know that it's going to mean a lot for people to hear all of this from you.

00:53:59.080 So thank you so much for talking to me today. 0.98

00:54:01.580 i know this is like 20 percent more earnest than like most of my episodes but man this shit is so 0.59

00:54:08.280 serious it's it's hard to you know pepper in the jokes as i usually do but i really really

00:54:14.660 appreciate both of you and i really appreciate getting to talk to you yona

00:54:18.660 it was it was really nice talking to you i'll see you after i go to jail i suppose

00:54:27.820 where can people find you online before and after your imprisonment that is something that i've never

00:54:34.560 said in the outros to these episodes it's like where can people find you online after you get

00:54:38.700 out of jail i post on twitter i'll quit eventually because it's owned by a neo-nazi but for now i

00:54:45.080 post on twitter it's at your nationalists yeah and also you can follow mr vot on all socials and

00:54:52.080 they post update for me and for my friends who also go to jail and once i once i do go to jail

00:54:56.980 you could send me letters which i would really appreciate because i'd have a lot of time

00:55:00.720 in isolation so do you want to uh uh send me you you'll text me how people can send you letters

00:55:08.360 yeah yeah but it's uh it's not like physical letters there's going to be a google forms in

00:55:13.180 mr watts link tree and you can write that and you can write to the other people who are also in jail

00:55:17.760 i would really appreciate it because i'll have a lot of free hours in isolation that i'll have to

00:55:22.520 spend somehow well i think you're going to be getting a lot of letters from a bit fruity

00:55:26.460 listeners i will link all of those the twitter links the mess our vote links in the episode

00:55:33.900 description thank you if you have listened this far i love you so much this was a really important

00:55:41.040 episode to me i know the topic wise this podcast gets all over the place sometimes we're talking

00:55:45.900 about jojo siwa sometimes we're talking about genocide but you know we all have ranges of

00:55:51.700 interests and this is my podcast so these are mine i love you so much and until next time stay fruity

A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - August 06, 2025

The Trans Teen Imprisoned for Refusing to Join the IDF

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