00:01:05.980Last year, at the direction of a newly re-elected Donald Trump,
00:01:10.400Elon Musk, the world's richest man, established the Department of Government Efficiency,
00:01:15.300or DOGE, named after the 54-year-old's favorite internet meme.
00:01:19.300Elon Musk, whose wealth could single-handedly end world hunger,
00:01:22.240was on a mission with Doge to cut what he viewed as wasteful government spending and lower the
00:01:28.640federal deficit. This was perhaps most notably done at the behest of Executive Order 14151,
00:01:36.080which Donald Trump signed the day he entered office in 2025, and which required the termination
00:01:42.640of all activities relating to diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility. What does that mean
00:01:49.000Exactly. Today, we may or may not find out. Elon Musk hired a group of 20-something-year-old young
00:01:56.120men, and over the course of a few months, they terminated thousands of federal grants,
00:02:01.140gutted entire federal agencies, and upended countless people's lives and careers.
00:02:06.380Doge immediately ended USAID, which brought humanitarian assistance in the form of
00:02:11.620life-saving medicine, education, food, and water to people in some of the most impoverished parts
00:02:16.100of the world. According to the New York Times, one canceled grant, quote, provided an education
00:02:21.420program in Nepal to keep girls in middle school to avoid early forced marriages. When that grant
00:02:27.680was canceled, parents in Nepal could no longer afford to keep their girls in school. The National
00:02:32.860Endowment for the Humanities, or NEH, a federal grant-making agency that supports research,
00:02:38.560education, and public programs across the country, was gutted by 97% in 22 days.
00:02:44.940Cuts included museum air conditioning funding, newspaper digitization, documentary filmmaker grants, and more.
00:02:54.320By the end of 2025, Fortune estimated that the number of jobs destroyed by Doge-related cuts was 400,000.
00:03:03.140A few of the groups whose grants were cut due to DEI, including the American Historical Association and the Modern Language Association, filed a lawsuit seeking to reinstate their funding.
00:03:12.760And so lawyers recently deposed two young Doge employees, Doge Bros as you might know them, named Justin Fox and Nathan Kavanaugh about their time at Doge and why and how they canceled thousands of grants at the NEH.
00:03:29.880Videos of their depositions were available online until a few days ago,
00:03:34.600when the government asked for them to be removed,
00:03:37.060saying that they had no legitimate bearing on the case.
00:03:39.520The judge ordered for the depositions to be taken down,
00:03:42.700and now those full videos are nowhere to be found on the internet.
00:03:47.220I don't agree with the government or the judge.
00:03:50.000I think people who terrorize the livelihoods and careers
00:03:52.840of hundreds of thousands of Americans should be household names.
00:04:52.840It is an honor and a privilege. Thank you for having me.
00:04:55.000How do you feel top line before we get into because I essentially spent yesterday watching 12 hours of deposition footage in 2x speed, which severely fried my brain, as one might imagine. And I and I clipped those depositions up and we're just going to watch them today. A couple of these clips have gone viral, but a lot of them haven't. And I think it's important to have these on the Internet. Hopefully no one comes after me for for putting them there.
00:05:20.680Yeah, I've seen the ones that went viral, where basically what comes across is two relatively young but grown men who signed up for this job where they could run rampant through the federal government.
00:05:35.100They thought with impunity, they thought with no accountability, not really having much of a sense of what they're doing outside of the vibes.
00:05:43.060They probably, you know, worship Elon. They probably worship Trump. It's part of the moment of the vibe shift and the sense of dominance of the Trump MAGA movement, this sense of ascendance, the sense of acting with total impunity.
00:05:57.760And so they come in and are just running roughshod over things that they, frankly, have no understanding of what these programs are, what these grants are doing, and have an almost like sociopathic detachment from any of the real world consequences of the job that they are undertaking.0.99
00:06:13.900And that level of sociopathy and stupidity definitely come through in these depositions.0.98
00:06:21.080So do you want to meet Justin Fox?1.00
00:10:04.020So even UVA, obviously, it's a public school, but it's one of the best public schools in the country.
00:10:08.900The fact he majored in, they don't call it business, they call it commerce.
00:10:12.100You have to apply separately to be in the comm school, as they call it.
00:10:15.840He's got all these these very well-known, prominent, prestigious checkmarks in terms of financial institutions he's associated with.
00:10:24.340He's climbing this career trajectory, which is very aspirational for a lot of the people that I went to school with at UVA as well.
00:10:31.060So you can see the track that he's on. Clearly, if he went to UVA, if he's able to get in the comm school, if he's able to get at these institutions,
00:10:37.700this is someone who has always you know succeeded in school and done well and gotten the pats on
00:10:43.860the head and is on the up and up and has also the the privilege of being this you know coming from
00:10:49.020this background being a white man of people patting him on the head and saying he's you know
00:10:52.520he's brilliant he's a genius he's the next big thing yeah and the last thing i'll say to that
00:10:57.420end is like part of what to me is so disgusting about this entire situation why i want to make
00:11:03.760this episode is that the premise of doge particularly as it related to cutting grants
00:11:09.120related to dei which is grants for gay and black people and women who talk about you know sexual
00:11:16.580violence or whatnot is that you know they're getting ahead they're getting these grants from0.70
00:11:22.880the government they're getting based on weaponizing the the apparent privilege associated with having
00:11:28.420a marginalized identity and we should everything should be merit-based that's they say this over
00:11:33.380and over and over and over again. So tell me why this project is DEI. Projection.
00:11:41.080It's promoting inclusion and diverse perspectives. Okay. What about diverse perspectives is DEI?
00:11:48.240It's not merit-based. When you look at this person, as we are about to do, you really get
00:11:54.980the sense that DEI policies at companies where maybe they would try to balance their hiring
00:12:03.660ratio across different demographics and stuff, maybe tilted the scale like 1% away from the
00:12:10.720innate privilege that young, white, privileged, wealthy men like Justin Fox have always had
00:12:17.940and continue to have. And to me, that's the thing that's so egregious, is that these are the
00:12:23.380ultimate privileged people. They are the ultimate winners of identity politics in their being
00:12:28.220straight white men. Well, and that's why there was an appeal with Trump. And that's why there0.57
00:12:32.900was an appeal with Doge. He saw this as a sort of I mean, it's a sort of like class solidarity,
00:12:38.960right? It's like, no, this I was promised this certain system where I would have this privilege
00:12:44.540and anything that undercuts that even a little bit. And it also speaks to a capitalist like
00:12:49.160zero-sum mindset all of those things are attacks on me that's a problem for me so that can provide
00:12:56.460the motivation and the other thing that i'll say is just like it sounds like such a joke at this
00:13:01.680point to talk about the trump regime having a merit-based approach when you look at the people
00:13:06.840they filled this administration with pete hegseth is just absurd ridiculous you know cartoon character0.64
00:13:14.200type of person cash patel are you kidding me keystone cash you know it's utterly devoid of0.61
00:13:21.200merit i mean most of these people part of why they're there is because they can never ascend
00:13:25.760to this level of role in any other administration and under any other government so this is their
00:13:31.080one chance to get in there and do something and so that's why they're there it's not because they
00:13:35.860deserve it it's because they're willing to pledge a level of fealty and they're willing to be
00:13:40.580humiliated for the cause. Couldn't have said it better myself. This is why we have Crystal today.
00:13:47.660So Justin Fox goes from his couple years in finance after UVA to work at Doge,
00:13:53.920where his salary was around $150,000. Did he have any relevant experience for that job?
00:14:00.080Let's take a listen. Before joining the government in March of 2025,
00:14:06.540did you have any experience in government?
00:15:08.040Well, in the position inherently selected for this type of person, because who else was going to sign up for the job of like rip things apart at the request of Elon Musk and Donald Trump come in with no background in government and just run rampant.0.68
00:15:25.380And so you're going to get a certain type who is going to think that, you know, that they're entitled to make those sorts of decisions, that they're, you know, perceived like IQ or academic success or privilege back or whatever gives them the right to issue these decisions to the lowly mortals.1.00
00:15:43.660And I'm sure they have all kinds of contempt for government workers, all kinds of contempt for the the libtards, right, who are pushing these grants, et cetera.0.98
00:15:51.940And so it comes from this sort of superior view of I get to say and throughout my whole life, I've been on this ascendant track and also a sort of Internet fueled disconnection from what the reality of what this is going to mean for people, what the reality is going to mean for the government, what even it is that you're doing and how you're being used as a tool in someone else's larger political game.1.00
00:16:18.300Totally. Justin Fox was hired to do work at Doge by a man named Anthony Armstrong, a businessman
00:16:26.320and collaborator of Elon Musk, who is now the CFO of XAI, which is Elon Musk's AI company.
00:16:34.960By the way, I will add, so many of the people who make some of the most consequential decisions
00:16:40.100in our lives aren't famous. We don't know their names. They're not Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or
00:16:45.880Donald Trump. They're the people who work like one or two rungs below them. They accrue so much
00:16:50.900power. They accrue so much money and they never get any of the public scrutiny involved, which
00:16:56.660is another motivation for us being here today. Just wanted to add that. Yeah, I think that's
00:17:01.060right. And also there's just an important principle of transparency as well, because
00:17:06.020here we are more than a year after the Doge Project launched and there are still massive
00:17:11.400questions about what did they do? What were the real goals here? Because we know no money was
00:17:17.360actually saved. So and I personally don't think that was ever really the goal. How much was AI
00:17:23.000deployed? How much data was compromised? What are the sort of government functions which have been
00:17:27.800lost potentially permanently? So to focus on these characters and also what the hell it was that they
00:17:33.800were up to during their time, I think is vitally important. So Justin Vox was hired by Anthony
00:17:39.960armstrong this guy who knows elon musk how did justin fox know anthony armstrong let's find out
00:17:52.260yeah that tracks that tracks what are we doing
00:17:57.340yeah i don't want to make too much of this episode me just like oh
00:18:02.840but it's like there comes a point right and and you're the one opposed to dei
00:18:09.260Right. And that's the thing is like it honestly is such a mirror on how you do end up perpetuating these structures where it's like, you know, since the previous elites were mostly white and male and straight, then the next era of elites, because they have a connection to those, that's how the whole pipeline works.
00:18:30.040So he's just a microcosm, you know, of that phenomenon, which does persist in our society.
00:18:34.700So top line thoughts. Does Justin Fox think he succeeded in reducing federal spending during his six months working at Doge?
00:18:43.160Before we get into the details of his workflow, let's find out.
00:18:48.120Do you feel that you succeeded looking back now and achieving that goal?
00:18:59.800Did the deficit go down during your tenure at the government?
00:19:03.100in other ways no do you know that the deficit did not go down at all yes i do in fact the
00:19:10.860spending went up they did manage to fire a massive number of people and so in a sense i actually
00:19:18.820think he's correct in this answer that in terms of the stated public goals of doge it was a massive
00:19:26.320failure you know spending went up the debt continues to grow and that was really the
00:19:30.920presentation is oh we're going to trim the fat we're going to make the government more efficient
00:19:35.120that part certainly didn't happen and so we're going to cut spending remember the original
00:19:38.820promise of doge was two trillion dollars that they were going to cut from the budget then it
00:19:43.240was one trillion then it was put down to like 150 billion even that they didn't accomplish
00:19:47.800anything close to that then it was 25 bucks right exactly we're all going to get doge checks in the
00:19:54.880mail remember that they just like pretended they never said that and everybody just moved on but
00:19:59.780And Doge really was the sort of front for effectuating a lot of the goals of Project 2025.
00:20:05.620It also was a front for effectuating a lot of goals that Elon had, both in terms of his business and also ideological goals.
00:20:13.580These are people, including Elon, who hate the government.
00:20:16.600A functioning government is a rival for power to the business world.
00:20:20.980So in a sense, just destroying, defenestrating the government, gunning it, going after ideological opponents, stripping down its capacity, attacking these agencies that, again, they see as liberal and that compete for power against the business world or against the ideological allies of President Trump.
00:20:39.240That was the real goal. And they did accomplish some of that. Some of that they actually did accomplish.
00:20:45.140Also, I feel like in this there is a there's an aspect of like the cruelty is the point. Yes, they were able to upend hundreds of thousands of jobs, so many of which belonged to minorities and save no money at all. And so it's like, how can you say that the cruelty is not the point?0.98
00:21:03.440Yeah, that's right. And look, it'd be one thing. I used to be back many, many years ago, right out of college at UVA. I was a federal government contractor. I worked for a contractor and my client was the U.S. federal court system. And so I've been inside of that world. And look, I think anyone would say, yes, there are ways you can make it more efficient. You see Zoran in New York City saying, all right, we're going to trim the fat. We're going to do a better job. We need to respect taxpayer dollars.
00:21:26.700That is a project that I think doesn't have to be ideological and that many, many people across the political spectrum could buy into. But even with the people that got pushed out or decided to leave the government, it was the opposite of merit based.
00:21:42.460So it wasn't, by and large, the people who aren't doing a good job and are kind of excessive or not really needed, superfluous in terms of their roles.
00:21:53.640It was, by and large, the people who took the fork in the road and decided to go elsewhere were the ones who could go in the private sector and earn a different paycheck.
00:22:00.660So it was the opposite of the merit-based approach.
00:22:03.540a bulk of the people you lost were some of the top performers, some of the most important people
00:22:07.800in the government, as evidenced by the fact that they had multiple times where key functions were
00:22:12.780lost. They had to quit, go back and hire people because it was just such a collapse in some
00:22:18.000function that was actually needed for the federal government. But again, I think losing that talent
00:22:24.540from government, that's not necessarily a bad thing from the perspective of, for example,
00:22:29.760Ross Vogt, who was the spearheaded Project 2025, and he's the Office of Management and Budget
00:22:35.100director and is really the person who is the ideological architect of this attack on the
00:22:40.760federal government. He wants the government to be degraded. He wants it to be stacked with loyalists.
00:22:46.300He wants it to be set up to fail. That serves him and his ideological interests. So even that
00:22:52.600approach, as we look from the outside, like this is crazy and you're losing all the best people,
00:22:56.240they're like, yeah, we are. And that's actually cool with us because we want the federal government
00:23:00.620to suck. Pretty dismal shit. So let's get back to laughing at Justin Fox. No, I'm kidding. That1.00
00:23:07.240was so dismissive. Crystal, you're so you're so intelligent. And you texted me before we started
00:23:11.500and you were like, I didn't watch the depositions, but I do have a lot of thoughts. And I'm so
00:23:16.700excited to hear all of them. So what were the finer details of Justin Fox's work? He was the
00:23:22.700main DOGE member assigned to gutting the National Endowment for the Humanities, the NEH. During his
00:23:29.580tenure, DOGE gutted over $100 million worth of NEH grants. These are grants, my dear listener,
00:23:37.600that are going to researchers, they're going to scholars, they're going to people who run museums,
00:23:43.300they're going to artists, they're going to filmmakers. I don't know how to explain to you
00:23:48.800that like culture is important. So what was the basis for which Justin Fox decided what was on
00:23:54.520the chopping block? Let's go back to Justin. Did you use any particular methodology in assessing
00:24:00.760NEH grants for termination? There was an executive order that said to eliminate spend on DEI.
00:24:10.420Crystal, are you ready to hear Justin Fox's definition for DEI? I think I am. I think I'm
00:24:17.120not sure but i think i am this is a longer clip and so we are now officially entering
00:35:38.800If that's what they wanted to do, yes.
00:35:40.500Well, I'm a little confused. Your goal with Doge was to save money, right? Reduce the deficit and apply these EOs on the road to those goals, right?
00:35:48.120To assist agency heads with being in compliance with EOs. Part of the EOs were to find savings through reduction in spend.
00:35:55.640Right. Right. Okay. And so part of it, we discussed this hours ago. Part of your work was to help to identify grants for termination, right?
00:36:04.520I'm not saying you terminated that, but I just want to be clear that we're kind of collating these things. I'm not saying them all at once.
00:36:08.980part of your job was to identify grants for potential to renaissance is that fair to say
00:36:12.980for the review of mike and mike and adam yeah i mean that is very revealing of a mentality where
00:36:20.680he wants to not have any of the responsibility placed in his hands he wants to say oh it wasn't
00:36:27.000really my decision i was just flagging things we also know they use chat gpt a lot to just
00:36:31.880go through and find like the word trans so that's how you end up with this you spoiled my next
00:36:37.000jumping ahead all right well i'll we'll table that for now but you also get this from his body
00:36:45.700language there's a lot of like heavy sighs of like oh like he's frustrated he's sort of tormented
00:36:51.940he can't explain himself he's got a war going on in his brain between rationalizing what he did and
00:36:58.020also not fully wanting to say what it was his understanding of what he was doing and it very
00:37:04.620much gives someone who was kind of like caught up in the heat of the moment, you know, Oh, Elon's
00:37:10.080this, this bill is the richest man on the planet. He's so cool. And he's waving around this chainsaw
00:37:14.460and I'm in this, this administration with Trump and Trump is such a bad-ass. He went on all the0.69
00:37:19.240podcasts I like. And now here I am at the heart of it all. It gives someone who got swept up in
00:37:25.300the heat of the moment and is now having at least some sense of, Oh, I'm not sure that everything I
00:37:31.940did was really great. And I don't really want to have to reckon with what the downstream impacts
00:37:38.020of this whole thing ended up being. And it's so interesting, right? Because he thought he was
00:37:42.660acting with impunity. He was having fun. He was probably high on his own supply as well as Elon's
00:37:48.520supply. And what's interesting is that through this case and it becoming so public, what strikes
00:37:55.700me is that these two young men who were making $150,000, which is a lot of money, but it's not
00:38:03.300Elon money. It's not whoever Anthony Armstrong is. It's not Anthony Armstrong money. And it's
00:38:10.180interesting that they become the sacrificial lambs in this situation. And, you know, they fully
00:38:14.980deserve it. But right now, there are so many people who aren't being deposed, who live in this
00:38:21.120world where they are making these decisions that upend all of our lives currently i feel this way
00:38:26.040about every single billionaire and and they are acting with impunity and i feel like it's important
00:38:30.740to remember that yeah it reminds me very much of like the january 6 prosecutions which it's like
00:38:35.520yeah those people should be prosecuted for the crimes they committed on that day and yet we also
00:38:40.000had donald trump back in the white house you know so the high level people who were involved in
00:38:45.260fomenting this attempt attempted, you know, election coup, they never faced any accountability
00:38:50.980whatsoever. So it is kind of a similar dynamic here. But I hope that people take that as a lesson,
00:38:56.840like the lower level figures in the Trump administration of like, yeah, Trump's probably
00:39:01.280never going to go to prison because the Supreme Court's granted him immunity. Elon is going to be
00:39:05.140fine because he's the richest man on the planet can buy his way out of whatever trouble he gets
00:39:08.960into or go to another country or whatever. But if you're some lower level functionary who's involved
00:39:14.860in these horrific crimes that this administration is committing on every day, you really think that1.00
00:39:20.820you can rely on Donald Trump to save your ass because you can't. He doesn't care about you.1.00
00:39:25.000Not one bit. In fact, if throwing you under the bus saves him one second of trouble,
00:39:30.500he will do it in a heartbeat. Yeah. Where's Elon? Where's Elon for these kids? Absolutely.
00:39:34.940Sorry. I actually shouldn't call them kids because they are adult men.
00:39:38.080With a childlike understanding of the world. Yes. This is true. So in this vein of feeling
00:39:43.920innate guilt and attempting to covertly cover up some of what he did at Doge, Justin Fox
00:39:50.620avoids telling us and then openly admits that he was not simply scanning the descriptions of
00:39:56.380thousands of different NEH grants himself for words like LGBTQ, homosexual, DEI, environmental
00:40:03.220justice, etc. No, no, he had some help. Okay, so you didn't write those descriptions. We edited and
00:40:10.460wrote on top of, but they pull out the key words and phrases from grant description.
00:40:16.000What pulls out the key words and phrases?
00:40:19.660There's extractors that you can layer on top of Excel to grab the keywords, and then
00:40:24.040you can pull in how it frames in the context of the EO.
00:40:27.220When you say, okay, so what extractor did you use to pull out keywords from the
00:43:11.000And even more disturbingly and horrifyingly,
00:43:14.900there was a school that had the word Shahid in it.
00:43:19.180And because the Shahid drones are an important part of Iran's war effort,
00:43:24.380they bombed the school that had the word Shahid in it.
00:43:27.700So when we think about what was actually done with Doge, I think a big part of it was also inserting these AI, LLM, all of these tools inside of all of the federal government and also very likely siphoning out a bunch of the data to feed into Grok to help benefit Elon in his quest for Grok to be the dominant AI product.
00:43:50.780So Justin is then tasked with explaining why he chose to help terminate one specific grant
00:43:57.740for an Alaskan language project. And the attorney reads him his own stated reasoning. Let's listen.
00:44:06.380Again, it says the Trothiata project aims to increase access to diverse humanities collections,
00:44:11.380which aligns with DEI goals of promoting inclusion and diverse perspectives.
00:45:38.940again he he is sure he just doesn't want to say it but obviously you can define what a minority
00:45:47.840group is if you don't know what the majority group is they're kind of defined in conjunction
00:45:51.940with one another you know the other thing probably for this guy too is when he signed
00:45:56.520up for this doge thing it was like cool to be a young man and be part of the the trump club
00:46:02.460The new right. Yeah, it was. Yes, it was cool at the time. And like his bros thought it was cool. And now they're like, this is embarrassing. Like, did you see the last Tim Dillon episode where he ripped all these people to shreds? And so it feels a lot less good now than it did. And also, I mean, I don't know what this man thinks about the ice raids and the fact that the DHS account is constantly just like overtly Nazi posting all the time.
00:46:27.920But it's also become undeniably clear that the goal of this administration is this ethno-nationalist blood and soil project and that he was being used as a part of that.
00:46:41.620So whatever he was telling himself, you know, in his mind, he has no deniability of what that broader project is. And he does seem like someone who would be uncomfortable with the maximalist fascist blood and soil aims of what this government is actively trying to do.
00:47:00.040Yeah, I do come from a principled place of like people can always grow and change. And if we don't believe that, then like, what's the point? Like, why am I doing any of this? I would argue that you might be giving him too much credit. I think his discomfort probably comes from this is the first time he's probably in his entire life ever been tasked with like any level of accountability for anything.
00:47:22.900You know, we'll hear from from Nate Kavanaugh next. And he certainly very openly feels no remorse and actually feels politically like things haven't gone far enough. I think the cultural element that you're identifying here is right. I think a lot about that. I can't remember if it was the cover of like New York magazine or The New Yorker or one of those, but it was like it was right on like the eve of Donald Trump's second inauguration. And it was like, what was it called? The cruel kids table.
00:47:48.900The cruel kids table. Yeah, I remember very well. Had like the blonde woman in the dress in the front.
00:47:54.320Yes, we made a podcast episode about that at the time. I think it's called How Conservatives Infiltrated Pop Culture. And it really felt 18 or so months ago, right when Trump won the election in 2024, there was this moment of like, it's so cool to be on this like young new right.
00:48:14.020Of course, we had a bit fruity, never thought that. But like it was an ascendant moment in
00:48:19.300American culture for like young white people to very openly be like, I'm reclaiming my place at
00:48:24.540the top of the hierarchy. And like, I'm going to wear the Sheehan dress and like go to this party0.74
00:48:29.960on Capitol Hill that's like sponsored by like fucking Barry Weiss or someone. And I'm going0.97
00:48:34.880to post on Instagram about how like America's back, baby. That moment in culture lasted like
00:48:39.720all of 45 minutes. It was just it was just long enough for Trump to get elected was basically how
00:48:45.400long that moment lasted. Right. And this is why I, you know, continue to be hard on the podcast
00:48:50.780bros who made it feel like this was a cool thing to do, who had him on Trump on or J.D. Vance on
00:48:57.220and act. Oh, they're like they're edgy. And these are they're just like our boys. And how could he
00:49:01.980be some fascist menace to the world when he can just sit and hang out with us? It's why it's
00:49:06.940important for people to, if they do learn and grow and change to also have some sort of reckoning
00:49:13.360with the role that they played. Because if you're just now in the place of like, let me criticize
00:49:18.160the things that I see that are bad. It's like, okay, good. Welcome. Glad to hear you taking that
00:49:22.820role. But if you're not also grappling with why you were wrong and the role that you played,
00:49:29.920even if it was a small role in helping to create this moment, then I can only take that so
00:49:34.700seriously and so look not to read too much into this guy but my sense of him is he didn't really
00:49:40.760think he hasn't thought too deeply about anything anything truly he doesn't have you know even a0.99
00:49:49.100bullshit definition of dei that he could throw out there to you know at least cover his ass a little0.98
00:49:53.860bit yeah he it was a purely a vibe based thing this seems cool elon seems cool you know i think0.99
00:50:01.440my boys will think that this is awesome that i'm like in the government doing this thing
00:50:05.380and i don't think it went much deeper than that so now as he's being forced to reckon with it
00:50:10.120and doing having to do some thinking that he hasn't previously had to do in the past it's
00:50:14.900very uncomfortable for him to use his own language it reminds me of that meme that's like0.80
00:50:20.520me reaping oh fuck yeah this is awesome me sewing oh i don't i don't know about this0.99
00:50:27.740This sucks. Definitely. It definitely gives that.1.00
00:50:33.320So then the attorney asks Justin about his rationale for helping terminate a grant for a documentary project called My Underground Mother, which is about Jewish women's slave labor during the Holocaust and which highlighted gender based violence against those Jewish women.
00:51:58.060It's a Jewish, specifically focused on Jewish cultures, and amplifying the marginalized
00:52:05.060voices of the females in that culture. It's inherently related to DEI for those reasons.
00:52:13.060Okay, because it's about Jewish culture.0.88
00:52:15.060plus marginalized female voices during the holocaust gender-based violence it's dei because
00:52:23.120it's dei it's like a mobius strip yeah it's dei because it's inherently dei is what's going on
00:52:30.860here it's gender-based okay so like anything about women is dei well no okay well why is it
00:52:36.540because it's just it just is and the gender-based thing he recognizes he's on a tightrope there
00:52:43.800Because surely if it was a documentary about men in the Holocaust or men in general, then it wouldn't be DEI, even though that would still be gender based.
00:52:53.260So it kind of gives away the whole game if he if he really walks out on that ledge about the gender based aspect.
00:52:59.600Something that really struck me listening to these depositions is and I talk about this topic too much on this podcast, perhaps.
00:53:07.600But like people belonging to minority groups who support the Republican Party, who continue to be Trump supporters.
00:53:13.020I talk a lot about LGBT Trump supporters and the cognitive dissonance they're in.0.64
00:53:16.820But like when you hear them spell this out so clearly, right, a grant that funded a documentary about gender based violence, let's use plain language, rape against Jewish women during the Holocaust is DEI.
00:53:41.840They're telling you exactly what they think.
00:53:44.500There's a very pick me aspect at the core of the women's support for MAGA, the LGBTQ support for MAGA, certainly the high numbers of Latinos who voted for Trump.0.52
00:53:57.440You know, all these Latino ICE officers.0.64
00:53:59.440That's the one that really gets me is I'm like, your name is Hernandez and you're doing this job.
00:54:05.060Like, do you understand you're not in the club?
00:54:07.280Do you understand that no amount of crushing the skulls of the protesters or, you know, destroying the lives of immigrants is going to make it so that you are a quote unquote heritage American in their view?
00:54:19.280But it's I mean, it's a very common, like oldest time type of phenomenon where the attempt to assimilate means sucking up to, you know, the dominant culture or the dominant political force.
00:54:32.620And so you end up with these types. And yeah, it's frankly, it's, it's frankly pathetic and0.92
00:54:37.560shameful. So by hour four of Justin's deposition, I am going insane at this point. Just, just see,0.97
00:54:45.300just so you can have a little, uh, uh, peek into my process. Uh, boyfriend is, uh, is begging me
00:54:51.700for me to come to bed. Oh, you're just getting started. Baby, I'm on hour four of 12. The
00:54:58.960The attorney at this point wants to know more about how Justin used ChatGPT to select $100
00:55:05.020million worth of federal grants to terminate.
00:55:07.420First, we learn exactly what Justin's ChatGPT input prompt was.
00:55:13.080It starts by saying, from the perspective of someone looking to identify DEI grants,
00:58:35.380ensure that ChatGPT's perception of DEI as applied here wouldn't discriminate on the basis of sex?
00:58:39.620Objection. Asked and answered several times. It didn't matter. We didn't need to.
00:58:43.080Is that yes or no? Objection. Is what yes or no? Did you do anything to ensure that ChatGPT's
00:58:48.040perception of DEI as applied here wouldn't discriminate on the basis of sex? Objection.
00:58:52.600The task was to pull out anything related to DEI. There was no reason to check for discrimination.
00:58:58.180So you didn't do it? Objection. We did not need to. Did you do it or not? Objection.
00:59:02.400this was a medium step in between getting the consolidated list to adam and mike i'm
00:59:08.140entitled to an answer to my question so that goes on for about another five minutes wow oh my god
00:59:13.000did you do anything to make sure that chat gpt did not discriminate on the basis of sex i like
00:59:16.780bolt upright in my sleep now and i'm just like did you do anything to make sure that chat gpt did not
00:59:21.400discriminate on the basis didn't need to well but did you i i didn't need to i because i wasn't the
00:59:27.740decision maker i mean that's the other piece of this is like constantly i'm passing the buck
00:59:32.180passing the buck past it's not up to me it's up those guys those are the ones you want to talk to
00:59:35.600which by the way they should but um i i'm excited to hear the other dude who you say was had like
00:59:42.020less remorse the way that he responded to these type of questions because this is a very not sort
00:59:47.900of steven miller-esque mega way of handling this like the the based approach would be like no
00:59:54.280because i don't care because women are part of dei like to just own it ten toes down the fact
01:00:00.100that he shows this trying to pass the buck it's a sign of weakness right that he's not fully
01:00:05.140comfortable in totally owning and loving every aspect of what he ultimately was doing the thing
01:00:10.940that popped into my head so many times while watching this for 12 hours was like the nuremberg1.00
01:00:15.480trials which i know is like a really intense thing to draw a comparison to with these fucking idiots1.00
01:00:20.720But you can just tell at every turn that he's trying to like squirm his way out of any accountability.1.00
01:00:28.120Yeah. And having to think about the way what he did will actually be perceived is, again, it's one thing when you're in the moment and you're with your boys and you're all doing this and Elon's there and the chainsaw and all this.
01:00:42.220it's another thing when you actually have to say my definition of dei is that anything that talks0.79
01:00:49.580about women or black people or gay people or trans people is inherently bad and needs to be0.59
01:00:55.700gotten rid of that we need to make sure that white men stay on top like he knows these things sound0.97
01:01:00.600bad but in the moment you know he's just again he's just not thinking too hard about it he's
01:01:05.120just doing what everybody's doing before we move on from justin fox i want to show you one more
01:01:10.060clip. The attorney asks Justin about the decision to terminate a grant for a documentary on the
01:01:15.520Colfax Massacre, which was a KKK and Confederate-led massacre of between 62 and 153 Black
01:01:23.100men. ChatGPT labeled this documentary about the Colfax Massacre DEI. Let's hear Justin.
01:01:30.460Do you agree with ChatGPT's assessment here that a documentary is DEI if it explores historical
01:01:36.380events that significantly impacted black civil rights yes okay why would that be dei
01:01:47.180it's focused on a singular race what is not for the benefit it is not for
01:01:53.660the benefit of humankind it is focused on a specific group of or a specific race here being
01:02:00.620black why would learning about anti-black violence not be to the benefit of humankind
01:02:06.380that's not what i'm saying okay then what are you saying i'm saying it relates to
01:02:11.720diversity equity and inclusion you said it's not to the benefit of humankind
01:02:15.880right is that what i said yeah is that what i said yes it it certainly is sir
01:02:21.880again out of principle i try to see the best in people i try to avoid terms like oh the mask is
01:02:29.840slipping but my goodness talk about the mask slipping yeah and i think this really speaks to
01:02:35.400So there is a push, again, going back to Project 2025 and really the architects of all of this towards this, quote unquote, patriotic education.
01:02:44.420And they've sort of given up on some of this direction because they've gotten themselves embroiled in so many other wars and ice raids and all of this other stuff.
01:02:51.980But there was a major attempt at the beginning of the administration to crack down on universities who weren't teaching history the way they wanted it to be taught.
01:02:59.180And this is a centerpiece of fascist projects because they want to have this glorified version of the past in which the founding fathers never did anything wrong and the dominant group never did anything.
01:03:14.600And there was no genocide of the Native Americans.
01:03:16.700There was no slavery and there was no Jim Crow.
01:03:18.780Or if there was, it's vastly downplayed.
01:03:21.720And so it's part of a propaganda project not to, you know, instill merit based values or whatever.
01:03:30.160No, it's to erase the past is to make it so that people don't know about the Colfax massacre.
01:03:34.600So they don't know about these sins and atrocities of the country's past because they want to return the country to this mythological, glorious past that they imagined in their heads and want to push out as propaganda to the population.
01:03:48.480And so, look, I don't know that this guy knows all of that history. I don't know if he really understands. I don't think that he does.
01:03:56.140Oh, Crystal, I can assure you he does not. Something tells me.
01:03:59.980But he's serving very effectively in the role that they want him to serve as muddying the history, as hiding the truth. And it really has nothing to do with however you want to define DEI. It really has nothing to do with that. And it has everything to do with an ethno-nationalist fascist project.
01:04:22.120The other thing I will say about these grants before we move on to our friend Nathan Kavanaugh is that back to the stated mission of DOGE, which it's about lowering the federal deficit, allegedly.
01:04:35.020If you look at the itemized list of grants that they canceled, it's like, you know, $60,000 for the documentary, $50,000 for, you know, a Black History Museum's fucking air conditioning system, stuff like that.0.69
01:04:50.720Yeah. Crystal, you are have a better understanding of the inner workings of like the government,
01:04:55.440frankly, than I do and of like budgets and stuff like that. But these people are being paid more
01:05:00.920individually than these grants are worth. Like it's to me, it's just so transparently like not
01:05:05.840about saving money because these aren't significant amounts of money. To be clear, though, it is a
01:05:10.280significant amount of money to the artists and researchers and scholars and culture makers who
01:05:15.000depend on that money. But in the scheme of government spending, what? Right. I mean,
01:05:20.700the bulk of the government spending is like missiles and health care. That's most of what
01:05:25.520you're talking about here. And so, I mean, they've gone on to cut the health care in service of
01:05:30.280spending much more on the missiles. That's the overall trajectory of this government.
01:05:34.360But no, the goal was never really about efficiency or spending cuts. That was never really the goal.
01:05:42.140And, you know, I just talked about the sort of fascist project at the center of this, and that goes together with like the capitalist project of Elon Musk.
01:05:51.600But, you know, to your point about how they don't care or value culture or cultural contributions at all, that goes to a central view of capitalism, which is if it's not turning a profit, if it's not market based, then it doesn't have value.
01:06:09.400so you shouldn't have to get support for your documentary you know if the masses are willing to
01:06:14.500suck it up then you're you know you'll be able to put it out on your own not recognizing that
01:06:21.000a lot of art has value beyond just its you know its sales value its market value and so i think0.98
01:06:28.440that's something that you know the the trump people and elon that these various factions
01:06:33.740in maga that came together in this moment i think that's kind of a view of the world that they all
01:06:38.060share. Totally. Which, of course, goes along with the AI slopification of art and culture also.
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01:08:25.620with respect to justin fox i do feel like we have uh we've kicked him while he's down so
01:08:32.380after five hours of deposition let's give him a break and take a look at his colleague his
01:08:37.760informal superior nathan cavanaugh i want to send you a picture of nathan cavanaugh he's got a little
01:08:44.180like a sweater on crew neck sweater hair coiffed could definitely have also gone to uva
01:09:19.780Yeah. Expensive taste. Nothing but the best for this man.
01:09:23.040Let's rip money away from those gay art galleries in the South. Let's do it, shall we?1.00
01:09:30.080So where Justin Fox is, I think, pretty clearly a complete moron, Nathan Kavanaugh, like I said, he's more of a smug, like, gleeful piece of shit.1.00
01:09:40.620Sorry, I run out of words sometimes.1.00
01:09:43.580Nathan Kavanaugh grows up in Pittsburgh.
01:09:46.540He went to Indiana University and only went for a year before dropping out and starting a company called Brain Base, which there's so many startups that sell their like AI services or whatever they do, frankly, to like big companies.
01:10:06.160I don't really understand the world of like startup and founders.
01:10:08.980I spend a lot of time in San Francisco where like founder culture is a big thing where people identify as founders.
01:10:20.900I mean, I feel like I being a 44 year old woman who was like living in New York for a while and whatever, and also spent a good bit of time in San Francisco.
01:10:29.080There was especially when my age was coming out of college, like started doing your startup and being a founder and being on the Forbes 30 under 30 list and all this stuff, these leadership summits and what I was kind of like the peak of that culture.
01:19:43.080Nathan doesn't really say much that's notable here.
01:19:46.500But if you're watching the video version of this podcast, I would like for you to look at the look on his face while he's being read his own decision to terminate this grant.
01:19:56.820The description here is legacies of HIV-AIDS prison movements in the United States.
01:20:01.920And I'll just read the long description.
01:20:07.140This is a history of the HIV-AIDS prison movement and its legacies in the United States.
01:20:13.340My book project narrates how activists fought the convergence of HIV-AIDS
01:20:16.760and incarceration from inside and outside prisons across the Reagan through Clinton years.
01:20:22.780For someone who's not watching, what face is he making?
01:20:25.700he's smarking he's like yeah you know he's like a little kid who did something that was that was
01:20:33.660naughty but he thought was funny and cool that's kind of the the energy that he's giving but it's
01:20:39.020not like it's not like oh that sounds rough it's like lol look at these losers look at how cringe
01:20:45.280it is that they care about this sort of stuff or that they're offended that i would cancel that
01:20:49.500grant i mean these are like i don't know i'm traumatized by my high school bullies i am
01:20:55.680Like that's not even a joke. I am. Yeah. This man didn't bully me in high school. I didn't know him in high school. I don't want to direct my my grief about my experience in high school onto Nathan Kavanaugh. But I would be remiss if I did not say that he looks just like them. Yeah. He hears the term HIV AIDS and he just glances at his lawyer who's to the left and he's like trying to stifle a laugh and then he covers his mouth and looks down.
01:21:25.680And he just can't help. How funny is it that these people were doing research on HIV in prison?
01:21:31.780It's funny. It's funny to him because, like I said, the cruelty is the point. You don't hate
01:21:35.380these people enough. And think of how many people died of HIV at the peak and how many
01:21:40.760died in prison of HIV before we had any sort of treatment. And, you know, he just sociopathically
01:21:47.660has zero thought, empathy, concern for what that meant to those people and their families and
01:21:54.240their lives. A while later, Nathan Kavanaugh has the opportunity to provide his own definition
01:22:02.080for DEI. I wish him luck. Here's Nate. I know we've talked about it somewhat already, but what is DEI
01:22:08.140referring to here? It stands for diversity, equity, and inclusion. And what is your opinion of
01:22:14.660diversity, equity, and inclusion? My personal opinion? Well, let's start with what does it
01:22:19.000mean to you it means diversity equity inclusion well those that's the label but what does what
01:22:27.500do those words mean it means making decisions on a basis of something other than merit how does
01:22:33.800diversity differ from equity in that term you know i don't know i don't understand the label itself
01:22:39.800frankly i appreciate his willingness to say i don't know yeah rather than trying trying to come
01:22:48.300love with something or refer, refer you to the EO. Yeah. It's also though. Okay. So he gives a
01:22:53.940specific definition here, right? Okay. It's, you know, getting some sort of a benefit on a basis
01:22:59.340other than marriage. And then the irony of this guy sitting there, like what meritorious thing
01:23:05.840did you do to deserve to be in this slot? Have you given all this power? I mean, it's just too
01:23:10.180brazen. And then when you apply that to all the various grants that they were cutting and what
01:23:15.700they were actually doing. I mean, if you actually hold that definition, what does that have to do
01:23:20.580with all of the grants that you were cutting? It doesn't compute, which is why Justin was a lot
01:23:28.340more tortured in his analysis of what DEI actually is. Yeah, there's so many great,
01:23:33.700and by great, I mean illustrative components to this whole thing. There's these incompetent men,
01:23:39.560and then there's the cruel canceling of all of this federal funding to all of these minority
01:23:44.940related projects based on the idea that they're not merit-based. And then there's the combination
01:23:50.460of those two things, that it's these meritless men tasked with doing it. I mean, it's just,
01:23:56.240oh, I'm sweating. I mean, it's just preposterous to even engage with because you know, they didn't
01:24:01.420actually look into any of these projects to see, oh, is this being well done? Is this an important
01:24:06.200narrative? Like how effectively are they creating this documentary? No, it's just like, it has
01:24:11.000something about gay stuff so it can't have it inherently can't have merit and must be canceled0.99
01:24:17.840um so you know we're gonna pass it along as absolutely crazy that the government is funding0.68
01:24:22.900such a thing back to the founding fathers they were instructed to preserve grants related to
01:24:28.200projects about the founding fathers and the founding of this country yes here is what
01:24:33.580nathan has to say about that so the founding fathers was there kind of like a period certain
01:24:41.200years that you looked at as being the founding of the country no we looked for grants that were
01:24:45.280politically neutral okay that had to deal with the founding of the country right and that both
01:24:50.180parties could look and say that these are not political grants and are worth continuing the
01:24:53.580famously politically neutral founding of the country revolutionary founding of the country
01:25:00.260based on what was at the time quite radical ideals, just completely politically neutral.
01:25:05.640They talk a lot in these depositions about like, you know, was it all founding fathers? Who was it?
01:25:10.660You know, and they specifically say like, oh, well, George Washington, we had to keep things
01:25:14.020relating to George Washington. If there were papers related to the founding fathers of the
01:25:19.140country, our judgment was to not terminate this. But it was explicitly the founding fathers.
01:25:23.660It was a judgment call of figures around that time period of the country that we thought were
01:25:28.660apolitical and worth keeping when you say they were apolitical what does that mean
01:25:33.320that they didn't they weren't related to dei and both a reasonable person would look at those and
01:25:41.520say that they're not political how would you determine what a reasonable person would
01:25:46.740we're using we're using our judgment george washington owns slaves right but if there
01:25:52.560was a project about george washington slave ownership that's dei that would be dei yeah
01:25:57.360And this is it just this gives away the game about what is broadly considered to be, quote unquote, apolitical and anything that has to do with, like, the dominant culture that is deemed as the default.
01:26:10.760That is a political anything that has to do with a non-dominant group.
01:28:13.780And my mind goes, oh, yeah, well, probably when all of the fucking, you know, arrests and murders in the street and, you know, kidnapping of undocumented immigrants working their jobs at Home Depot got out of control, like maybe there was a moral conflict, whatever.
01:28:27.080And he goes, did you feel like the ice work was too aggressively getting people deported or not aggressively enough?0.64
01:28:37.500I didn't think it was aggressive enough, but at the same time, I didn't enjoy working on that project.
01:28:43.780wow so anyway back to doge like i said the attorney gives him a chance to reflect openly
01:28:51.520on the work he did in doge and here is what date has to say during your tenure around 1500
01:28:57.940grants were canceled yeah yes and each of those grants funded projects real projects by real
01:29:06.480people working on scholarly works, some of those funds were used to pay for
01:29:13.860housing and to further their work. Now those funds are gone, does that make you feel
01:30:21.800And I think the thing you said earlier about how you then went and worked for ICE and was like, they didn't go far enough. I mean, this is a person who is a true believer in the most maximalist ambitions of this fascist government and is probably someone unlike Justin, who really hadn't thought that hard about any of this.
01:30:41.200he has thought this he has thought this stuff through like he has an ideological view and his
01:30:47.220only complaint about the trump administration is that they are not going far enough in causing
01:30:51.720enough cruelty to actually cut the deficit the amount that he wanted to see that they're not
01:30:56.600going far enough in destroying the lives of as many immigrants as he wanted to see it makes sense0.99
01:31:02.860the whole thing makes sense in an effort to like genuinely try to understand how someone could
01:31:08.800think like this. I mean, how can you acknowledge outright? We didn't accomplish our goals.
01:31:14.100We didn't do anything substantively good for anyone. And we only hurt people. And I have no
01:31:20.980regrets. Like, I feel like I genuinely it feels sociopathic. It definitionally is. I just don't
01:31:30.380know. I don't know if you have insight into people who are true believers like this,
01:31:35.080who really have no shame like on a real level like how do you become like a comic book villain
01:31:40.920oh that's probably a whole other podcast but i mean i do think i do think partly especially
01:31:45.960since knowing that this guy has some level of wealth and has clearly created as like a supremacist
01:31:51.500ideology in his own mind about that and then i also think there's something about hyper online
01:31:56.840culture that makes everything sort of like surreal and disconnected and is dehumanizing in certain
01:32:01.900ways as well. That probably comes through here too. But, you know, whereas Justin wants to be
01:32:09.060the, I'm just following orders guy. I didn't really know what I was doing. It really wasn't
01:32:13.560up to me. This one is like, no, I did that. I'd own it. I'd do it again. I want to go further.
01:32:19.000He's all about it. You know, he's a zealot. We'd have to learn more about what exactly sparks that
01:32:24.940and what the overall ideology is. It could just be a nihilistic ideology where it's like,
01:32:29.860I want the suffering. I want the pain. I want to burn it all down. I want to destroy. There are
01:32:34.540some people whose personality types, you know, it doesn't go much deeper than that. But, you know,
01:32:39.500he's someone who would have seen the connection between what Doge is doing and the broader sort
01:32:45.940of blood and soil ethno-nationalist project and how that's, it's seamless to go from what he was
01:32:53.060doing at Doge and then to ICE. And the other thing I'll say about this is, you know, with,
01:32:57.580with these depositions because of the nature of what this lawsuit is about you're talking about
01:33:01.100these documentary grants you're talking about cultural projects right where a lot of harm is
01:33:05.340being caused to individual people and these organizations and i don't want to diminish that
01:33:09.740but you also had in doge i mean they completely destroyed usa id and you're going to have
01:33:15.100the estimates are that millions of people will literally lose their lives because of those cuts
01:33:20.480like for there were millions of people for whom this was life or death and it was being run by
01:33:25.120the richest man on the planet like that's inherent to this project and so this is like a microcosm0.99
01:33:31.640with this wealthy young guy who thinks he's the shit who thinks he gets to have you know say over0.98
01:33:37.900other people's lives and just casually destroy them for no reason it is just a tiny like sliver0.99
01:33:43.000microcosm of the bigger project which was unbelievably devastating to millions of people
01:33:48.340and led by the richest man on the planet.
01:33:52.660Crystal, there were, as you just said, cuts across all different agencies, many of which
01:33:58.400are and will be responsible for mass death.
01:34:02.640And there was all sorts of rewiring of how money was spent as a result of these cuts.
01:34:07.400A lot of the money did continue getting spent.
01:34:46.920i was preparing myself for like the trump arch or the trump kennedy center or worse basically
01:34:54.780ever since 2020 with like the george floyd protests and then the subsequent like a lot of
01:35:00.780left-wing activists calling for statues to be torn down of people like christopher columbus
01:35:07.660uh confederate leaders people like that you know right-wing racists trump has been trying to build
01:35:14.740for six years the national garden of american heroes it's a sculpture garden of people he
01:35:21.280personally admires yeah some sort of trump art project yeah it's a trump art project that he's
01:35:27.560he's actually through multiple executive orders attempted to get this done it's still you you
01:35:32.200guys can read the whole wikipedia page it's nuts and uh thousands and thousands and thousands of
01:35:37.840careers and lives in arts and culture uh were destroyed in pursuit of building the national
01:35:44.400Garden of American Heroes. So instead of learning about the impact of HIV and AIDS in the prison
01:35:51.060population, we'll get to see a statue of like Jake Paul. Yeah. I have to laugh because I'm
01:35:59.120going to cry if I don't, Crystal. I mean, it's not even like a joke. It's just like literally
01:36:04.400the case. It's just that's our reality is so absurd that you can't even joke about it anymore.
01:36:09.380Yeah, reality has put the onion out of business. What do we take away from this, right? Like, what's our conclusion here? I wrote my thesis here. It's offensive enough that a 20-something-year-old white guy would get a high-ranking position in a federal office with no qualifications and no experience.
01:36:25.480It's reprehensible, however, that the specific job these young men were in charge of was upending the lives and destroying the careers of women, people of color, queer people, etc., who they believed were unqualified and being offered special privileges on the basis of their identity.0.98
01:36:41.560No one benefits from identity politics more than a mediocre white man.
01:36:45.560You don't hate the system or it's Epstein class oligarchs enough.0.99
01:36:49.420Hear, hear. And I think there's actually a lot of different things to draw from this because in Justin and Nathan, you have the archetype of two young men who became true believers in a certain sense. I mean, Justin went more of like a vibe based way and Nathan and more of an actually ideological way. And so you get a little bit of a glimpse into what that mentality is, right?0.57
01:37:13.460Like, what are the motivation? What is what are the thought processes? What leads you to want to put yourself in this place? And given how much was made of like the, you know, impact of young men on Donald Trump's election and the podcast bros and the like, like, that's an important window.
01:37:29.500the way that this was all done and the ends that it ultimately served and how distinct that was
01:37:37.900from what was being sold to the public i think that's a very important piece of this and then
01:37:43.460i also think out of this it underscores one of the things that i've grappled with under this
01:37:49.160trump regime is you know in the movies the villains are always like the evil geniuses
01:37:54.680You know, they're like diabolically smart and but also diabolically evil.1.00
01:37:59.860And this regime is like diabolically stupid, but also diabolically evil.1.00
01:38:06.100And, you know, you you get some of that from this as well when you can't even come up with an answer for what even is DEI, which is the center of the job that you're supposed to be doing.0.99
01:38:16.540DEI stands for diversity, equity and inclusion.
01:38:19.560And that means diversity, equity and inclusion.
01:38:22.780it stands for diversity equity and inclusion well let's start with what does it mean to you