Breaking the Boy Code - The Labels on Boys’ Masks

00:00:00.000 okay actually so i'm not even going to explain anything yet i have a question to start with

00:00:04.480 which is have you ever changed anything about yourselves in order i guess like in order to

00:00:12.440 fit in or in order to avoid getting targeted by other people oh no i never i never had to yeah

00:00:20.420 in like grade two i was kind of bullied for my shoes because i had these like weird these weird

00:00:25.440 brown shoes uh-huh so then like I just started wearing my sneakers that I got

00:00:29.940 for my birthday they're like they're like these small sneakers right I never

00:00:39.300 had to change myself of like to fit in or something or not to be targeted

00:00:43.680 because I feel like I don't there's no need to do that and that's just who I

00:00:48.320 am I don't feel like I should change who I am just to please you

00:00:55.440 Hi, again, this is Jonathan,

00:01:10.660 Director of Programs with Next Gen Men

00:01:12.500 and the creator of the Breaking the Boy Code podcast.

00:01:16.100 This is episode sort of two-ish

00:01:18.380 in our season with a group of boys

00:01:21.560 at a local school in Toronto

00:01:22.720 discussing the intersection of race and masculinity.

00:01:26.140 So I'm in the midst of going through footage from years ago, piecing it together, exploring

00:01:30.940 what can be pulled out and learned from the conversations that we had.

00:01:36.880 This recording takes place in the library at their school.

00:01:40.320 One of the early activities that we did in our first couple of sessions was this activity

00:01:44.460 called The Mask You Live In.

00:01:46.140 It's an experiential activity that's facilitated by many organizations working on engaging

00:01:50.100 boys in conversations about mental health, well-being, gender-based violence, and that

00:01:55.700 kind of thing. And one of them, by the way, is Ever Forward Club. So a shout out to my friends

00:01:59.800 over in California and the Brave Conversations being led by Ashanti Branch and the Million

00:02:03.820 Mask Movement. The idea with the activity is that the mask is an examination of what you show

00:02:10.500 and what you keep hidden to yourself, as well as what kinds of things on the inside you might

00:02:17.180 have in common, right, with the boys around you. It's about vulnerability and trust, and ultimately

00:02:23.940 about the choices we make and how they either connect or disconnect us from the people around us.

00:02:30.880 Now, before I dive back into the recording, just a note that some of the audio didn't make it

00:02:36.520 off of, in particular, off of one of our laptops before the hard drive died.

00:02:40.880 And some of the audio just like wasn't easily usable because of COVID social distancing,

00:02:45.120 because of DIY microphone issues.

00:02:48.280 And so part of how I was able to make this project feel doable again

00:02:52.340 was by also being willing to let go of some of that footage. 0.96

00:02:57.440 It sucks. It's the reality of where we're at.

00:03:01.180 So although my co-facilitator and past colleague Adrian

00:03:04.360 was having a very similar and impactful conversation

00:03:06.640 with the three other boys, Akshay and Yoel and Kamari,

00:03:09.360 I've only been able to go through the audio from the conversation

00:03:12.320 with Betsa and Sadiq.

00:03:13.980 Here it is.

00:03:15.120 okay so a couple different experiences with like whether or not you get targeted and like

00:03:31.520 the level of self-confidence you can bring to like what you're wearing and that kind of thing

00:03:35.860 i think regardless of like what i guess like regardless of the way that like the social

00:03:42.340 status that you have or like the way that you get treated by other people it is really normal

00:03:45.960 to still make choices about what you show and what you don't and what I mean by what you show

00:03:54.140 is less so like what shoes you wear and more so like sometimes there's stuff going on for us on

00:03:59.280 the inside that we actually don't show to the people around us depending on who we're with

00:04:04.220 is that kind of making sense yeah yeah like like your trust or something no it's like you have

00:04:10.420 something going on and you don't want to tell other people yeah both of what you said are is

00:04:14.180 what i'm talking about if so if we have stuff that's going on and we feel like we don't want

00:04:20.680 to tell people yeah well but don't say it yet because you know how last week we did some writing

00:04:26.020 first and then we talked about it essentially you have two it's two pieces of paper stapled together

00:04:30.720 and on the front you have a mask and on the back you have what's behind the mask okay so it's meant

00:04:38.240 to be like a mask and then your face and so you have these pens spend some time writing on the

00:04:45.780 out we'll just start with the outside of the mask on the outside of the mask right

00:04:48.200 if you're like at school with people you don't know that well if you're on the street

00:04:52.380 what kind of stuff will you show on the outside okay so write it down on the paper

00:04:56.680 yeah and it can be what you think also about feelings like what feelings do you show on the

00:05:02.240 outside oh so that's why like the mask is gonna show like the outside of you and

00:05:07.760 okay yeah my personality my body language the white person myself my

00:05:13.660 school my clothes my stylist my swagger so think about where like go deeper with

00:05:22.100 so yeah you're showing your personality you're showing your body language what

00:05:24.920 is your body language saying to the world so now flip the page and think

00:05:31.800 about what's stuff that sometimes goes on for you that you don't show the rest of the world.

00:05:38.220 So what are feelings that come up that you wouldn't just, you know, let everybody in

00:05:43.920 class know that's how you're feeling?

00:05:48.340 Okay, so...

00:05:52.500 bullied past?

00:05:54.860 Nice.

00:05:59.300 You've been bullied?

00:06:01.140 Many, many times.

00:06:03.020 It's not only in school, it's outside as well.

00:06:07.880 Like, not right now, not right now, like a while ago. 0.99

00:06:10.880 Because, like, if it's right now, I'm going to slap that guy in his face. 0.99

00:06:15.260 Violence is not the answer. 0.99

00:06:16.860 Yeah.

00:06:20.500 So think about, so that's a good one, bullied past.

00:06:22.680 Think about, like, one of those days where, like, everything is just, like, not going right.

00:06:26.240 or you do really badly on an assignment or you have like family stuff going on at home yeah if

00:06:33.340 I get a if I get bad on an assignment I just don't tell my parents yeah yeah because they're not going

00:06:37.580 to find out anyway so what would be a feeling that you have when you get a bad mark um frustrated

00:06:46.480 angry right so yeah

00:06:50.900 okay so first off can you share your mask so let's start with what's on the outside

00:07:01.520 what do you project to the rest of the world what kind of stuff do you show on the outside

00:07:06.500 for me what i project to the outside of the world or like things that people see

00:07:11.920 my personality like my body language or like emotion I show like happiness or like and things

00:07:21.360 like that I show my style like swagger the way I present myself and things like that I also show

00:07:29.940 my clothes you know if I get new clothes I'll show it off and show them that I'm happy you know

00:07:34.540 nice thank you what about your mask what's on the outside on the outside sometimes I can be mean at

00:07:41.500 times. I like to wear dark clothes. I like wearing dark clothes. My black

00:07:48.400 sweater is still in the the washer so I can't wear it today. Sometimes I have a

00:07:55.000 nice personality depending on who I'm nice to. Any other feelings that you

00:07:59.500 guys show to the whole world or if you're in like a situation like walking

00:08:05.600 down the hallway or on a basketball team that you'll definitely kind of like put

00:08:09.220 out there. Confidence. I show confidence. I show confidence as well but like if I see someone that

00:08:15.480 knows me like if I'm like famous and stuff and I see someone that knows me I'll like if they want

00:08:19.620 a picture I'll take a picture with them and stuff because like if if I'm famous yeah I just I just

00:08:26.600 want to show love to my fans and stuff. Right. I'll show confidence. I'll show them that like

00:08:31.520 you know I'm confident. I'm not insecure. I don't care what you think about me. I'm just me. What if

00:08:37.560 Is there anything good about you?

00:08:39.120 Yeah, but like, yeah, it's okay.

00:08:41.620 Like, it doesn't really bother me or anything

00:08:44.760 because I'm just me.

00:08:45.600 I'm just trying to be happy by myself.

00:08:47.800 I'm just trying to be me, you know?

00:08:50.700 So why confidence?

00:08:51.800 Why did you both say you'll definitely put out confidence?

00:08:55.100 Because I feel like confidence is like my character power

00:08:59.260 because I feel every, since I was even young,

00:09:01.680 I was always confident.

00:09:03.000 I'm confident to like just speak to other people

00:09:06.700 I don't know, have conversations with other people, get to know other people or even just like speak in front of the class and just see whatever, just see what you feel.

00:09:16.780 Because I feel like not a lot of people have that character power or something, but I feel like that's the character power that sticks out to me the most.

00:09:26.520 And I've really shown that through my whole life.

00:09:32.600 Okay, so you naturally feel like you have confidence that you're going to bring with you?

00:09:36.360 uh-huh um Sadiq do you naturally have as much confidence well no if I'm confident with some

00:09:46.600 stuff because if I'm like if I'm playing basketball and I'm like brushing these guys

00:09:52.440 these like very good guys I'm not gonna have much confidence but like if I do have if you're

00:09:57.920 confident about everything you might not like like how do I say this you might not complete

00:10:05.380 what you're gonna do if that makes sense okay yeah so i'd say not try not to get your hopes up too

00:10:12.260 much but always be confident and like always do what you're doing you basically like when you're

00:10:20.020 confident you basically just like believe in yourself and believe that you could do whatever

00:10:24.580 you set your mind to and if you think you work hard to you could achieve your goals and things

00:10:29.140 like that okay so if you're playing against guys who are better than you in basketball are you gonna

00:10:34.100 try to look confident or are you just going to be like completely i i try to be confident but like

00:10:41.080 so why try why bother because they might think that oh this guy this guy's probably good we

00:10:48.160 we shouldn't we shouldn't verse him because we might humiliate ourselves and stuff okay so it's

00:10:54.380 about thinking of how other people are going to look at you yeah okay so what's on the inside of

00:10:58.360 the mask then so we talked about on the outside showing like happiness confidence i don't care

00:11:04.480 what you think you know sometimes being mean like all that kind of stuff so what what did you put on

00:11:08.920 the inside what's the stuff that you you carry with you but you don't necessarily show to the

00:11:13.280 rest of the world for me what i put is like family stuff my business my secrets sadness or like if

00:11:22.600 I'm hurt or things I just keep it inside but sometimes it's not good to do it like sometimes

00:11:28.780 that because like I don't feel like it's not I it's good to let everything out because if you

00:11:33.540 keep everything inside you're gonna burst and it's gonna hit you bad and you might even be like

00:11:38.980 sad or upset of the littlest thing you don't even know about but it's about the emotion you bottled

00:11:44.240 up so it's not but some of those things I just keep inside because I don't want to rub that

00:11:49.840 person make them feel bad because of me or something because I want them to see me happy

00:11:54.600 like that if they see me happy they could be happy too I don't want them to be sad or make their day

00:11:59.940 go bad because of what I'm feeling inside so I just keep those stuff to myself and I also keep

00:12:05.180 like family stuff because I know that there's some things they wouldn't want um like other people to

00:12:10.080 know or like they they would they would trust me to keep it inside and secrets like people trust me

00:12:17.060 with their secrets and they wouldn't want me to expose them so I have I'm

00:12:21.620 thankful that they trust me so I just keep it inside instead of blabbering my

00:12:26.180 mouth and things like that so for me like what I keep about myself when I

00:12:33.300 keep to myself like I sometimes I get angry and I try not to like show it so

00:12:38.780 that people think that oh this guy has anger issues we should hang out with him

00:12:42.440 he might do something to us and sometimes like when I get a bad grade I

00:12:46.680 I don't show my parents, like, if I get a failed test or stuff, which I barely don't.

00:12:52.620 And what I keep to myself, this is a big one, it's my bully, like, past.

00:12:56.860 It wasn't, like, bullied, bullied, just then punched in the face, thrown to the ground.

00:13:00.660 It was, like, it wasn't really bullied.

00:13:02.580 It was more of, like, being excluded from other stuff.

00:13:05.620 Because, like, so in grade two, you know Tenzing, right?

00:13:09.600 Mm-hmm.

00:13:09.900 I was in his class in grade two.

00:13:11.600 So, like, he was playing basketball with Joshua, Tristan, and all of them.

00:13:15.500 and I was like, can I play?

00:13:17.540 And he's like, no, can you please play over there and stuff.

00:13:20.320 So then I just did and stuff.

00:13:22.320 So I just stopped playing basketball because I didn't feel like it

00:13:25.060 and there's no point of playing.

00:13:27.700 You let them get into your head?

00:13:31.020 Yeah.

00:13:32.360 And what were some of the feelings that you remember

00:13:34.560 from that kind of experience?

00:13:36.760 I never felt sad or anything.

00:13:39.020 I just felt excluded and angry, kind of.

00:13:42.360 Confused?

00:13:43.000 Yeah.

00:13:43.240 but it's like their choice if they don't want to play with me it's fine i can play with somebody

00:13:48.440 else okay okay cool it wasn't really a sad past it was more a little bit of a funny one kind of

00:13:56.300 i'm not trying to think of it as a sad past but thinking of it as like like a good memory

00:14:01.600 yeah that's something that happens when you grow older stuff that even hurt when you're like you

00:14:07.440 were younger like distance creates relief from that pain so yeah so that's pretty normal that

00:14:13.560 like maybe it hurt back then but you're not trying to like hold on to that hurt like you just look

00:14:17.540 back and laugh at it yeah well you guys mentioned you didn't go too much into sadness so where does

00:14:24.100 sadness fall between on the mask or on the inside or you don't feel sad at all oh for me sadness is

00:14:31.980 on the inside like because on the mask is like it's something that you show people and then you

00:14:38.240 and you like and like that's how people see you as or things like that like people you don't know

00:14:43.620 but like for me I put sadness on the inside because it's something I don't want them to see

00:14:48.000 or like I prefer not to like make them sad like I said before like make them a bad day and I just

00:14:54.900 prefer like keeping it inside and then I could find like things to to just uh make that sadness

00:15:01.260 go away like do things that i like or like just find a way to be like relieved and not be sad

00:15:08.780 anymore so that's what i do okay what about you cd mine's kind of like betsa's answer it's on the

00:15:15.740 inside it's in your heart it's it's like sadness is like when you feel down when you feel like

00:15:21.960 you're like and like when you feel like you're worthless when you feel when you feel like

00:15:27.660 there's no like there's no point in stuff of doing what you want to do and sadness can affect you

00:15:35.260 it can like it can hurt your lives it can affect your lives because there's a lot of people who

00:15:39.840 are like depressed and stuff because of stuff that happened to them in the past or stuff that's

00:15:45.380 happening to them like right now yeah that's what i think sadness is it's in your heart and that's

00:15:50.820 why you prefer to like keep it inside right yeah and not show anybody yeah okay what's did you

00:15:56.980 notice well okay so one more question is did you notice any similarities between like your mask and

00:16:01.700 beth's mask or your mask and city's nice like is there anything that you noticed that was kind of

00:16:06.300 the same i think we had a lot of things we put um personality our clothes and things like that

00:16:15.000 we also put like uh the way we present ourselves and happiness and things like that and then for

00:16:21.800 Our masks, we also put kind of, like, the same things.

00:16:24.800 We put, like, sadness and things like that.

00:16:28.280 So, basically, like, your emotions inside.

00:16:31.880 We also, but you show the good emotions on the outside,

00:16:34.660 but on the inside you show, like, you put the bad emotions

00:16:37.280 and you keep it there where no one can see it.

00:16:41.520 Yeah, okay.

00:16:43.420 Something that you mentioned, Betta, was, like, the feeling of, like, bottling things up.

00:16:47.800 Is there anything to add about that or, like, what happens when you hold out that stuff?

00:16:51.800 um so basically what i was trying to get i was trying to see like when you hold like too much

00:16:57.920 bad things inside or you don't want to like let anything go and you keep everything bottled up

00:17:02.720 inside it's just gonna like frustrate you and at one point you're just gonna soak in all the bad

00:17:08.320 things and you're gonna feel like wow it might even make you depressed and everything just like

00:17:14.040 wow so like that's what i'm saying it's good to let things go instead of like remember how you

00:17:19.680 said you you guys laughed at things but some people don't do that they they keep it inside

00:17:25.040 and then it rubbed them a bad way and then like they'll be like when you keep a lot of bad things

00:17:30.700 like you'll be like sad about the littlest things that you wouldn't be sad about but

00:17:35.400 you know that it was just it's not that that you're sad about it's just like your emotions

00:17:39.460 that are inside of you that you're sad about and just like it's bad it could rub is like it could

00:17:44.740 be it could lead to depression and things like that it could lead to suicidal things

00:17:50.100 so it's good to just let yourself loose and like express yourself express yourself yeah

00:17:59.260 and be able to like forgive yourself or forgive basically yeah yeah like processing stuff like

00:18:08.160 forgiving forgetting like all of that is really really good stuff to be able to do when there's

00:18:12.980 hard things going on it's also stuff that's pretty hard to do by yourself sometimes like to get out

00:18:19.520 of sadness all on your own sometimes you can sometimes it just takes time but there's also

00:18:24.700 value in having somebody that you can trust and so spend like 30 seconds and write down

00:18:34.980 one or two or a few people that you think of if you think of somebody who does know you

00:18:41.340 on the inside of your mask like who knows that kind of stuff that goes on for you about

00:18:46.140 that's someone you trust like a lot yeah like you could tell them anything okay

00:18:51.780 you guys have a small list you've one you have a couple you only need one and if you don't have

00:19:03.920 anybody actually that's also worth talking about okay you have four so you why don't you tell me

00:19:10.980 who you have who'd you write down I got my cousins they're very trustworthy and like they're very

00:19:16.680 funny they always make me laugh when I go to their house and stuff one of them is actually my best

00:19:21.640 is a basketball coach yeah my friends like my best friends not only friends because like

00:19:28.100 sometimes my friends can like let out secrets and stuff my best friends are like worthy they're

00:19:33.060 trustworthy my parents my parents I don't know about I don't know about my dad but my mom for

00:19:40.640 sure my sister my older sister yeah kind of she kinds of she's kind of trustworthy cool yeah thank

00:19:49.640 you for sharing that's who did you write down well for me i the only thing i put on my list is like

00:19:54.720 family because i really feel like i trust them like they wouldn't they wouldn't like dude like

00:20:01.060 family we we stay close and things like that i feel like they won't really i really trust them

00:20:05.960 a lot because they won't like tell people that things that I wouldn't want them to know or things

00:20:10.920 or like even if they're not blood blood people like I consider as my family because if I consider

00:20:16.420 you as my family like I really have trust in you so like I'll tell them things and I know

00:20:22.040 I know they're gonna not tell anyone or if they if they would want to tell someone to help me do it

00:20:27.320 let me know first or do something they wouldn't want to they want like good things for me they

00:20:32.740 wouldn't want bad things or to make me bad or anything so they're really trustworthy too and

00:20:37.520 they find ways to like make me feel good or how do I could work through it and they like they're

00:20:42.720 really like they're there for me like they're always there for me they have my back and they

00:20:48.000 love me you know that's why I feel like I could tell them anything and I know that they're always

00:20:53.520 gonna have the right thing to say even if I don't want to hear it they'll still be keep it 100 and

00:20:59.880 tell me the truth nice that that answers my next question so go back to city which is what is

00:21:07.140 like unique or special about those relationships with those people so um that's what's talking

00:21:13.240 about like that trust or like they want the best for me like they love me like what like so what

00:21:17.240 yeah what does that look like in your relationships with your cousins or whoever it is what's special

00:21:22.260 about your relationship with them that makes them someone you can trust well like me and my cousins

00:21:26.960 like we've we've known each other for like all well all my cousins are older than me yeah the

00:21:33.220 youngest is 17 the oldest is like 35 my relationship with them is like it's a strong relationship I

00:21:41.360 don't really like visit them that much so like sometimes I just keep that to myself I don't

00:21:47.220 really text them that much and like well my parents my mom like she like I don't know how to explain

00:21:55.680 it's like my mom my dad he's he's pretty trustworthy i have good relationships with

00:22:00.820 my parents but like sometimes when i get bad grades like they get kind of upset and stuff

00:22:06.860 my friends yeah i'm trusting my my friends only no my best friends my the relation the relationship

00:22:15.600 i have with them is like it's a strong bond because i've known we've known each other for

00:22:20.720 like years and years growing up and stuff so if i tell them if i tell them a secret they'll tell

00:22:28.280 me a secret and we'll just like keep it together and not tell anybody okay and so why do you think

00:22:37.140 you trust like why trust these people specifically because they've i've known them for a while and i

00:22:45.220 think that they won't tell anybody about like what i'm telling them and stuff yeah yeah basically

00:22:51.720 like knowing them your whole life yeah so that like amount of time to build trust is is that

00:22:58.300 the same for you best of it like it takes time yeah you said it takes time yeah oh yeah because

00:23:06.380 it does take time because once you're little actually when you're little i talked a lot a lot

00:23:11.660 a lot but as I got older I started not like saying as much but like I still trust them though I talk

00:23:18.580 but now I have like more like serious conversations with like my siblings and things and they tell me

00:23:24.540 about like real life things and they like I learned from them like basically like they're telling me

00:23:29.660 things that they've gone through and they try to help me like that I won't go through the same

00:23:33.500 mistakes or things like that so that's why I really like them and I and I I love them actually

00:23:38.760 And I tell them most of the things that they could try to help me.

00:23:42.660 And basically, like, they mentor me in a kind of way, in a certain way.

00:23:49.140 If you're a parent of a younger boy thinking of how to nurture positive masculinity as he grows up, we see you.

00:23:57.160 We know gender norms are powerful from day one.

00:23:59.980 And one of the most important things parents can do is start the conversation. 0.67

00:24:04.080 That's why my colleagues and I at NextGenMen wrote a kid's book about masculinity.

00:24:09.480 It's called A Kid's Book About Masculinity.

00:24:13.920 I'm going to read you part of the summary.

00:24:15.500 It goes like this.

00:24:16.760 What comes to mind when you think of masculinity?

00:24:19.600 Certain ways to act?

00:24:21.240 Talk?

00:24:22.060 Just simply be?

00:24:24.100 We believe masculinity is a story which can and should be told in more than one way.

00:24:29.320 because when we do, the world is a much fuller, more beautiful place.

00:24:35.020 So if you have a child or a nephew or you're going to a baby shower

00:24:38.940 or let's be honest, if you're just an adult who wants a thoughtful little something in your life,

00:24:43.680 check it out. It's called A Kid's Book About Masculinity wherever you get books

00:24:47.540 or at shop.nextgenmen.ca.

00:24:53.640 All too often, the sessions and resources that we design aren't as intersectional as they should be.

00:25:00.140 With the mask, for example, sure, it's important for boys to think about what they show and what they don't.

00:25:04.900 And the different choices they can make with different people in different contexts.

00:25:10.740 But the reality is that for Betsa and Sadiq, who are both black boys, they don't always get to choose what other people put onto their mask.

00:25:20.300 There might be stuff that gets put onto them.

00:25:22.920 And so the focus of the second half of our conversation was kind of about when and how

00:25:28.260 does, basically how does prejudice take shape?

00:25:31.700 What does it feel like within the masks that they wear?

00:25:47.440 Okay, so we're going to go back to the drawings and we're going to add something.

00:25:52.920 So what we're going to add is about the fact that you can both make choices about what you show to the world and what you don't, you know, who you trust to like, you know, hold that like inner stuff with you and who you kind of like just sort of like keep at a distance and just show the outside of your mask.

00:26:11.900 those are choices that you can make but what's on your mask there's a chance that what's on your

00:26:19.400 mask is not entirely up to you because something else that happens is that people who don't know

00:26:26.040 you that well who don't have that trust with you are going to look at you and they might see some

00:26:31.220 of what you're putting onto your mask but they're going to add some of their own stuff about what

00:26:35.740 they think of you stereotypes yeah based on maybe some of the choices that you've made but also

00:26:41.000 based on what they already have as preconceptions or prejudgments in their mind.

00:26:45.500 So what I want to do is spend some time with pencil crayon,

00:26:50.000 adding on top of what you wrote,

00:26:53.600 either draw, like draw facial expression or draw pictures or whatever,

00:26:57.860 or just add more words.

00:26:59.840 And what you're adding to the mask is what other people might put onto you.

00:27:04.580 Make sense?

00:27:05.380 It can be helpful to think of like a person who only sees you for your mask

00:27:11.100 and think about what do they think of you or what do they expect from you.

00:27:16.020 So we also put things that like we can't control in our mask.

00:27:19.800 Yeah, that too.

00:27:20.580 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:21.040 So it's what people think about you.

00:27:22.740 Inside or outside the mask?

00:27:24.160 Outside.

00:27:24.820 So people who don't know the inside, what do they add to your outside that you don't get to choose?

00:27:29.940 So what people think of me and what like you can't like things that you can't control.

00:27:34.640 like that's that shows in your mask oh i put like my skin color in my eyes oh okay

00:27:40.820 like things you can't control in your mask so basically when i'm gonna put like some people

00:27:48.340 like like told me but i basically like broke the odds or like broke the stereotype

00:27:53.680 like it's something that happened in real life or something okay so give us more detail

00:27:58.600 So basically, before when I, when I, when I, it was my first, so this is my first year and I came, I dressed, I dressed up as like myself and I had like swagger.

00:28:10.780 It was my personality and things like that. I came into school. They thought I was a behavior kid.

00:28:16.400 I thought that too.

00:28:17.280 Yeah, they thought, they thought I was a behavior kid. They thought I wasn't like disciplined and things like that.

00:28:22.780 And then after that, when they see my work, they're like, wow, this kid's actually smart.

00:28:27.520 so I basically broke their their stereotypes but like a lot of people like based me off of my

00:28:34.000 appearance and they basically like judged me they judged the book without its cover you see so they

00:28:39.520 seen the title but they didn't see the page so once they seen the page they were shocked and then

00:28:44.640 like um for things like those are things that like really happened and also things that you

00:28:50.400 can't control in your mask I put my skin color because like it's not I never chose to be black

00:28:56.720 or something i'm still proud i'm proud of being black but i never chose it's something i couldn't

00:29:01.040 choose it's something that just came on to me things my race i didn't choose my parents like

00:29:06.440 background because they were created before me and like people like what people think as a black

00:29:13.120 male they would think i'm like a thug or like a thief or not disciplined slash disrespectful

00:29:20.020 yeah and things like that they basically like they based me off of things like other people

00:29:25.680 of my skin color has done and they just it's like stereotypes they based it off of all the black

00:29:31.340 indigenous people of color and then they basically like yeah they not privileged or things like that

00:29:38.280 so that's what that's what i think things i can't control from my mass because those are things that 0.97

00:29:43.900 people think of me and things like that but they if they get to know me you know they'll be they'll

00:29:50.480 be shocked surprised okay great yeah yeah yeah so there's a lot there Sadiq anything what else

00:29:59.020 what got put on what gets put onto your mask well it's not like okay I'm gonna give you like a whole

00:30:05.760 story of me okay so basically I was born when I was born someone said a legend was awakened

00:30:12.660 and that legend was me okay i'm playing so like i was i'm actually an og to the school because

00:30:20.260 i've been here since wait that was you're not telling us that you just made that up oh my god 0.50

00:30:26.360 i totally was like shit all right so yeah so i came i came here when i was one one years old 0.56

00:30:35.420 because there was like these like baby classes beside the kindergarten classes oh cool where 0.96

00:30:39.900 There was this teacher, her name was Judy. 1.00

00:30:41.660 She teaches like all the babies.

00:30:44.080 The baby's parents have to come too

00:30:46.920 in case anything happens and stuff.

00:30:49.380 So my sister was also there when she was a baby,

00:30:52.940 my older sister.

00:30:53.780 So I'm like probably like the biggest OG in the school.

00:30:56.100 I've been here since I was born.

00:30:58.040 And since like when I was in grade,

00:31:00.900 when I was in kindergarten, like a senior,

00:31:02.620 when I was like, it was my last year

00:31:04.300 until I turned grade one.

00:31:05.780 So then I like left the school in summer break

00:31:08.800 And I went to Africa, I went to Sudan.

00:31:11.940 I spent like a few, like one or two years there.

00:31:14.780 Then I came back in grade two.

00:31:16.700 And then like, it was like mid grade two,

00:31:18.360 it was like February grade two.

00:31:20.640 Then like a lot of people like, they look kind of weird.

00:31:24.700 They were kind of disgusting when they looked at me and stuff.

00:31:28.300 I was just like a four foot little kid 0.53

00:31:32.220 just walking around the school and stuff

00:31:34.380 because I didn't know where my class was.

00:31:36.860 And like, so I went to the office and stuff

00:31:38.800 asked where my class was then there was a teacher that uh thing took me to the classroom

00:31:43.200 and then blah blah blah grade three there I finished grade three blah blah grade four

00:31:47.980 then it kept going on till I'm here now yeah okay so through that process of I mean you grew up

00:31:56.680 here but then you went to Africa for a bit to Sudan and then came back I guess what did you

00:32:02.240 know this might be you might be like I don't know I was like five years old but when you think about

00:32:06.120 being in grade two do you remember people putting expectations on you when you came back

00:32:10.680 people that didn't know you uh i remember a little bit um yeah some people were kind of

00:32:18.240 mean to me and stuff i don't know okay it was a long time ago okay what else did you put on

00:32:26.800 your drawing about what people put on your mask that you don't get to control like well i don't

00:32:33.340 I need to control that, like, how I was born, how, like, my background is, how my hair is.

00:32:40.740 Well, like, some people think that, well, I think some people think because when they look at me,

00:32:45.740 they look kind of, like, grossed out, kind of weird, and because I think they think that I'm a criminal

00:32:50.700 or, like, I'm aggressive because I have a little bit of an anger issue when, like, when I get really angry.

00:32:57.400 I don't, I try not to hurt anybody, but I just, like, leave the class.

00:33:00.400 I like take a break and take deep breaths and stuff and then I come back into the classroom

00:33:04.860 right okay so people might look at you and just see your anger and not see other stuff yeah okay

00:33:11.480 you also can't you can't control your features you can't control like what other people think

00:33:19.180 of you because at the end of the day is their opinion even if their opinion is like bad or

00:33:24.460 things like that you still can't control that it's just what they based off of you but once

00:33:29.000 they get to know you they'll they'll see they'll know who you really are and they and you'll beat

00:33:33.800 those stereotypes and beat what they think of you and basically like prove them wrong in this in a

00:33:40.020 type of way okay so there's some determination there what else does it feel like or how else

00:33:44.240 does it feel to be judged by someone who doesn't really know the inner parts of your mask how does

00:33:49.580 it feel for people it's wrong it has to stop too but how does it feel so beyond saying it should

00:33:54.820 stop how does it feel to be to experience that it feels bad it feels like it makes you feel that

00:34:01.380 they're right and that you are a criminal or something else like that yeah for me it's like

00:34:09.100 it makes me feel like they're disappointed because why are you gonna judge me off of

00:34:14.500 what you think of me and then just go with that without actually knowing me and things like that

00:34:20.580 And then they're going to start looking at me differently and start talking to me differently because they think I'm what they did because of what they think of me instead of actually knowing who I really am.

00:34:32.980 So I was just like disappointed of them even doing that.

00:34:36.560 And it also made me feel sad because is that why is that actually what you think of me when I actually haven't did nothing wrong?

00:34:44.100 All I was doing is just being myself and being who I really am.

00:34:47.300 okay so one more kind of important question is kind of what Sadiq just touched on about like

00:34:56.380 sometimes you end up feeling like they're right I guess potentially in a way so and maybe that's

00:35:02.380 not always the case but I'm wondering are there times when or I guess are there connections

00:35:06.500 between what you choose to show I think let me let me guess what you're gonna say you're gonna

00:35:13.260 say have there been any times where somebody has like been mean to you and you feel like they were

00:35:18.340 right sure yeah okay go for it well not really sometimes i don't like to listen to the haters

00:35:27.560 and stuff so i just like going hate haters going hate so i just don't listen to them sometimes i

00:35:34.000 think that happened like once or twice i don't really remember okay that's the same for you

00:35:40.580 huh yeah okay what about have you ever

00:35:46.180 i don't know have you ever

00:35:50.020 decided to be more like what they expected anyway because it's just too annoying or too tiring to

00:35:59.680 try to be never because i am who i am okay sure no but never i don't wanna i don't wanna like

00:36:10.000 act a different way just to please you because it's gonna make me feel like uncomfortable like

00:36:14.400 i'm not myself and it's like just like weird and why even i wouldn't want to do that just to please

00:36:19.840 you because like at the end of the day if you're not cool with me then that's okay but let me just

00:36:24.320 be me and be happy you don't have to bring me down with you so you know i'm like expanding you know

00:36:30.720 i'm elevating i'm gonna do anything that's gonna make me elevate you know what it is okay okay

00:36:37.680 Sadiq were you gonna say something okay well let me put it so but so for example you came to this

00:36:44.080 school and both other students and teachers kind of thought you were gonna be a like a behavioral

00:36:50.640 issue right because you had a bit of swagger and you had like your clothing or whatever and then

00:36:56.800 after that and then and then after that when they see my grades and everything they're like this

00:37:01.760 kids right because all i got was a's in my report card and i got all e's i even i even did the test

00:37:07.740 for gifted okay so why why do you get good grades because like i'm trying to basically like prove

00:37:15.180 them wrong and to see like you don't you can't just judge me off of what you think of me and

00:37:20.400 like i'm basically like trying to say like you see you thought i was this but i'm actually smarter

00:37:25.640 than you and things like that you know i was just like it's like it's like a challenge right and

00:37:31.400 you're trying to beat that you know okay so there's a determination to prove people wrong

00:37:36.940 perseverance okay and have you ever been in a situation where you like say for example your

00:37:45.920 teacher thought you were going to be a behavioral issue and anytime you raised your hand or tried

00:37:50.440 to say something and you were going to say something helpful you know or ask a useful

00:37:54.260 question but she was like that's a stop talking that's a stop talking and just constantly got

00:37:59.400 you in trouble you know like I know this kid who who has literally got sent to the principal's

00:38:04.380 office and he's like all I was trying to do is ask a question you know but she thinks that I'm

00:38:08.600 trying to disrupt the class and I'm not have you been in any situation where you got fed up and

00:38:14.940 stopped trying to prove people wrong Sadiq any thoughts on that I know you're talking about but

00:38:21.220 I just don't know how to say it.

00:38:23.840 It's like, it discourages you?

00:38:27.460 I don't know how to describe it.

00:38:28.860 Kind of.

00:38:29.500 What did she say?

00:38:30.680 I said it discourages him.

00:38:32.380 Yeah, okay.

00:38:32.720 Like, because he's trying to prove them wrong.

00:38:34.260 He's constantly trying and trying.

00:38:36.300 And they still just shut him off.

00:38:38.300 Well, for some people, it may feel like that.

00:38:41.000 But for me, it just, like, motivates me.

00:38:43.120 I think one of the things that's come into my mind is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:38:46.820 Have you heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

00:38:48.180 see there's this thing in education called i believe the pygmalion effect and the idea is

00:38:54.980 um a teacher who's like made up their mind that you're going to be disruptive or you're going to

00:39:04.920 fail well that'll actually adjust their behavior towards you so they won't help you as much or

00:39:12.040 they will shut you down instead of encouraging you or responding positively and that effect

00:39:17.640 means that they actually prove themselves right that's called a self-fulfilling prophecy where

00:39:22.040 they say oh this kid's going to be trouble then they treat you with disrespect and you end up

00:39:26.960 being trouble but if they had just sort of brought you positivity and respect basically they're the

00:39:31.500 ones changing you yeah and leaving you into existence yeah they're sort of because they

00:39:37.520 expected negativity what they get is negativity but if they had not made that prophecy in the

00:39:42.640 first place, that maybe wouldn't have happened. So for Betza, Betza was talking about when he gets

00:39:49.400 that expectation put on him, he ends up feeling really determined to prove them wrong. And I think

00:39:55.100 that determination is admirable, but it also might not be the case for everybody. Because I can also

00:40:00.520 imagine that gets pretty tiring sometimes to constantly be trying to prove people wrong about

00:40:04.380 what they think of you. And so for this self-fulfilling prophecy, yeah, I guess I'm

00:40:11.460 wondering do you have like a different angle on what does it feel like or how do you respond

00:40:15.380 so if like so what you're trying to say is that the teacher is if you're saying you're bad you're

00:40:21.960 not going to do good then they treat you like differently than other people then you don't do

00:40:26.240 good yeah then they like act like they prove the point yeah but like that's wrong because if they

00:40:32.060 do it in one student and then after that they start to expect it they're gonna start um doing

00:40:36.660 get to other students that come that have the same that presents themselves differently and it's like

00:40:41.780 they don't like them or like they want to set them up for failure instead of elevating them and try

00:40:47.720 to make them better and like give um give like as being as a teacher you're supposed to help your

00:40:53.500 students get um get knowledge instead of and that's for to me if if they do that they're not

00:40:59.420 really being a teacher and i don't feel like they're really doing their job because like

00:41:03.080 they're basically giving privilege when in a classroom you should all be treated equally but

00:41:08.740 you know it's like not all of teachers have the same like good mindset some of them still believe

00:41:14.600 that they should give privilege that the people of their skin color they should tease they should

00:41:19.660 treat them kindly and the people that that that they don't like they should treat them rough and 0.72

00:41:25.160 and like disrespectful and then send them to their principal's office and basically like create

00:41:31.040 like she's basically like creating them in a type of way yeah she's like building them up instead

00:41:36.000 of changing them and and like making them like become good so like yeah so like like in there's

00:41:42.800 this book you know angie thomas you know she's an author so it's basically she's an author there's

00:41:48.800 this book called on the club and it's basically about like brianna she was trying to sell candy

00:41:53.780 and after that she got pinned down by two security guards and then they thought she was a drug dealer

00:41:59.880 right so people kept saying she's a drug dealer she's a drug dealer and then it got to a point

00:42:04.260 she was like oh I'll find it I'll claim that I'll claim that position I'll claim being a drug dealer

00:42:09.680 like I'll be like oh and you'll start acting up it's basically like the same thing what the

00:42:15.120 teacher is doing she's like pressuring him into becoming something he doesn't want to be

00:42:19.920 how do you stay grounded or like anchored to the like inner part of yourself like that

00:42:26.720 determination to like be who you are and to like prove people who think badly of you wrong

00:42:32.120 how do you stay grounded to that when you are navigating like people who have negative

00:42:37.260 expectations of you well like like what keeps you going well like i guess for example like

00:42:44.880 you wrote down a list of names of people who really know like the inner you like did they

00:42:48.820 play a part in helping you out yeah when other people have negative expectations like does it

00:42:55.480 matter to have people who know you yeah oh yeah it matters a lot because at times it could feel

00:43:00.520 like you're lonely but then like I said my family I have my family to go to I know that there's

00:43:05.420 people that have my back that's gonna help me and and like mentor me remember so basically I could

00:43:11.460 come to them for help they give me knowledge because they already been they already been to

00:43:15.880 this situation so they could tell me what not to do and what what to do in this situation like they

00:43:21.160 basically like they try to like they take what they got of it and they give me more knowledge so

00:43:27.200 it helps me even more and then if I have a younger sister or a sibling I mean I could I could give

00:43:32.500 them I could give them my knowledge and then they could use it to help them even more so we're

00:43:36.420 basically helping together as a unit and sticking together and having each other's back so if you're

00:43:41.700 lonely you know you can always come to them and they'll always love you and care for you and be

00:43:46.200 there for you you know okay what else do they do for you Sadiq mine was kind of like Betza's

00:43:51.480 well you need you family is like really important if you're getting like bullied in school

00:43:56.760 you can like tell your like siblings I want to say tell your parents because like they might do

00:44:02.240 something that that like might get them in trouble because they might get like angry and stuff like

00:44:08.000 they might go to the school and tell and yell at the principal saying why why is why are your

00:44:12.620 students bullying this child and stuff like that so i'd say family is important because they got

00:44:18.800 your backs and they might not always have your back but they should always have your back and

00:44:24.540 it's not only family it can be your friends it can be your you know whatever and what impact does it

00:44:30.560 have for somebody to have your back like that it'll like make you feel protected it'll make you feel

00:44:35.900 like you but like it'll make you feel like you can defend yourself kind of if i'm making sense

00:44:42.020 it'll make you feel like yeah it could but like it'll make you feel that you're you can you you

00:44:49.600 have his back or hers hers back and then like you guys have each other's back and stuff okay and

00:44:56.020 what about to have somebody who knows the real you like to have somebody who knows beyond the

00:45:01.060 mask what impact does that have it'll make you feel like you trust the person it'll make you

00:45:05.840 feel like you can tell them like what's going on about your life what's going good and what's going

00:45:10.540 bad and what about so that's the impact on it has on your relationship with them are your feelings

00:45:15.080 towards them what about your feelings towards yourself to have somebody who knows you what

00:45:18.360 impact does that have on you yourself like i feel like i'd feel like i have a trustworthy friend i'd

00:45:25.560 feel like i'm i don't know i don't know how to explain it you're basically like relieved yeah

00:45:31.920 you have someone that knows the truth and that knows like he's like if you feel like if the

00:45:37.280 whole world's against you you have that person that just knows what what's really going on and

00:45:42.660 how you feel and then once you know like once a person that you really trust they know and you

00:45:47.860 tell them about everything they know what's going what's wrong with you or like when you're sad

00:45:52.460 and like they basically know like everything about you and you guys like create like a a bond and

00:45:57.980 and the bond becomes stronger and stronger so they can help you you can help them and things

00:46:03.560 like that so they're basically like your comfort or your like support tool yeah and that bond

00:46:10.540 feeds your determination to be who you're gonna be okay tell me say like this is so and so two

00:46:20.920 important qualities in a close friend all right so so this is this is betsa aka the girl as you

00:46:30.740 know me as the king, the one and only, the true girl, you know, like the best of the best, you

00:46:35.760 know, future NBA number one draft pick. And then so basically two important qualities of a best

00:46:41.540 best friend. I think you should be trustworthy and you should also be like, like understand where

00:46:48.220 your best friend's coming from, like, and then also giving them advice. You should just be honest.

00:46:54.540 I feel like you should be honest and trustworthy. Those are two of the main thing and also

00:47:00.520 opening like know what they're going through and then also giving them like advice even if they

00:47:05.580 don't want to hear but you're still helping them out and giving them the truth what's up my name is

00:47:09.420 so basically two important qualities in a in a best friend like a trustworthy friend like

00:47:14.580 like like how they need to be well they like like you have to be they have to be trustworthy i'd

00:47:22.000 say like tell them like stuff that has been going on with your life and like a like a trustworthy

00:47:27.780 with your friend like they're they'd keep your they keep your secrets to themselves they'd not

00:47:32.720 say to anybody unless they get your permission to and they'd be a very good friend by backing

00:47:38.940 you up if you're getting bullied and having your back as always my name is jonathan thanks for

00:47:45.340 listening to breaking the boy code this podcast is supported by next gen men an organization that's

00:47:50.460 committed to helping boys find opportunities to take their masks off and in doing so help boys

00:47:55.040 challenge a system that seeks to label them as something they're not. You can support NextGen

00:48:01.020 Men at nextgenmen.ca slash support. You can reach me at boypodcast at nextgenmen.ca or at boypodcast

00:48:08.340 on social media. In the work that you do, you'll find ready partners and boys themselves,

00:48:13.560 hearts beating loudly behind the masks they wear.

00:48:25.040 We'll be right back.

Breaking the Boy Code - October 23, 2024

The Labels on Boys’ Masks

Episode Stats

Transcript