00:00:00.000Hello, I'm Rachel Gilmore, your least favorite person's least favorite journalist. Welcome to
00:00:11.120Bubble Pop. This is the weekly live show where we talk about some of the biggest headlines and
00:00:16.800juiciest news tidbits so you don't have to doom scroll. And if you want to support the show,
00:00:22.480you can do that on Patreon, Substack, YouTube, as well as anywhere you'd like to listen.
00:00:26.880while we're live we're also going to leave about 10 minutes at the end of the episode
00:00:31.120where you can ask some questions i'm going to prioritize people who use the super chat function
00:00:36.160but i will take we always have time for some normal questions as well so please don't be
00:00:41.680shy drop those in the chat all right let's get into it this has been a hard week um which means
00:00:50.560that this is going to be a bit of a hard episode we're gonna dig into some uncomfortable painful
00:00:58.080stuff um and if that doesn't feel right for you please don't feel bad you can skip this one i'll
00:01:04.720see you next week okay see when i initially planned this week's episode um i had wanted to talk about
00:01:12.720youth far-right radicalization uh there had been a teen in the quebec city area who was recently
00:01:20.000charged with a terrorism-related offense. According to the RCMP, he had allegedly been
00:01:25.540making propaganda for the militant accelerationist neo-Nazi terror group Atomwaffen. But then
00:01:32.440something truly unthinkable happened. In the small BC community of Tumblr Ridge, an 18-year-old
00:01:40.720shooter opened fire on a school and, over the course of the incident, took the lives
00:01:46.320of six kids and two adults it really is devastating um i i think we all struggle to
00:01:57.200just look at the pictures of these sweet kids um and it's heartbreaking i think our our whole
00:02:04.640country is is mourning right now and and thinking of tumblr ridge um and as if this cruelty this
00:02:13.520unbearable pain wasn't enough some people immediately took this news for their own agenda
00:02:22.160and used it twisted it to vilify and demonize the transgender community and it wasn't just
00:02:30.800fringe twitter accounts it included major newspaper columnists elected politicians
00:02:37.360influencers who had recently been invited to the conservative convention
00:02:41.120All of it, a cruel and selfish, selfish distraction from what actually matters, which is the victims, their families, and their community.
00:02:57.840Today, we are going to talk about all of this, which is why I say it's not going to be an easy episode.
00:03:07.200Youth radicalization and the danger it poses, misinformation in times of crises, and vicious transphobia.
00:03:16.340To help me do that, I've got two incredible guests on the show today, and I am extra grateful for them this week because these conversations are not easy at all.
00:03:26.220So the fact that they were willing to do this, I'm truly grateful.
00:03:30.480Amarnath Amarisingham is an associate professor at Queen's University and is a senior fellow at
00:03:35.840the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. He's written several books on and his study of extremism and
00:03:41.700radicalization has seen him directly interview members of major international extremist groups
00:03:46.880as well as their friends and families. Faye Johnstone is an iconic tour de force who is
00:03:53.020doing some heavy lifting and saving our world. She's the executive director of Queer Momentum,0.78
00:03:58.540a non-profit advocacy organization powering queer political action across Canada.0.86
00:04:03.420She was also, you may have heard, once on a chocolate bar, which made the worst people
00:04:08.060in the world really, really angry. She's probably your least favorite person's least favorite
00:04:13.180activist. Amar, Faye, welcome to Bubble Pop. Thanks so much. Thanks, Rachel. Thanks for being
00:04:21.580here um you know this really has been uh an awful week and i wanted to start off by just giving you
00:04:32.380both the chance to share how you're doing i think that this is something that is both you know
00:04:39.660it's one of those moments that i think we all feel on this community level and on a deeply
00:04:46.300personal level. So, Amar, I'll start with you. How are you feeling after seeing the news this
00:04:52.460week? What was your first reaction? And what really kind of hit home to you about this story?
00:05:00.100Yeah, I mean, thanks for doing this. And thanks for having this conversation. I think
00:05:04.760this is kind of our Sandy Hook moment, right, in Canada, in many ways. And I think it's important
00:05:11.420to note that like good people in society good people in Canada will come together they will
00:05:16.600help the families they will focus on the victims as they've already been doing and I think good
00:05:22.300people will already also start to kind of these kids in general more broadly and I was just
00:05:27.760thinking this morning about how hard it is to be a kid these days from online bullying to social
00:05:34.440media addiction to the mainstreaming of kind of anti-immigrant anti-LGBTQ content to mental health
00:05:40.720resources being underfunded and whittled away. And now you have kind of their physical safety
00:05:46.420not really guaranteed either. So the kids need help. And I think the good people in society will
00:05:54.940do what they can. And then you have the rest who I think will, as we've also been seeing,
00:06:01.360unfortunately, politicize every single aspect of the shooting as they have from whether it's guns
00:06:08.560to trans identity to mental health issues and i've even seen things like video games and his
00:06:14.640the shooters anime uh interests i guess um it's just this bizarre uh ability exhausting ability
00:06:24.560uh for them to kind of see everything through the lens of uh us and them uh through the prism
00:06:30.400of kind of a culture war framing um and you know so i i just think they're the people that we need
00:06:37.600to support and pay attention to will do what's necessary and then all this vile kind of swampy
00:06:45.120behavior luckily confined largely to the internet can be pushed to the side. Yeah and just to jump
00:06:53.920off of what Omar said there are really helpful resources out there like and it doesn't make you
00:07:00.640weak or anything to use them. When I was a teenager I actually had something happen in my life and I
00:07:07.040called kids help phone and I was crying so hard that the woman couldn't understand me at first
00:07:13.520um but then she calmed me down and was really helpful so please please use those resources if
00:07:20.080you're struggling they're there to help um Faye how about you how are you doing what stood out to
00:07:26.640you um how are you holding up you know I think I haven't been able to stop thinking about the
00:07:32.960families uh and the victims right like i think i can't imagine what that community what tumblr
00:07:38.720ridge is going through it's a small community right it's a close-knit community um and i've
00:07:44.000been reeling you know i think folks across canada uh woke up on wednesday uh feeling a little bit
00:07:50.800less safe and knowing that like that illusion of safety that i think many of us have relied on in
00:07:55.920canada in contrast to america right like we've imagined that we're so good we're so safe uh that
00:08:01.920was shattered overnight um and that's actually what i haven't been able to move past you know
00:08:06.960there's there's the folks that amara referred to who are you know making political hay out of this
00:08:12.160um but i'm still like in that moment of like wrangling with a shattered illusion um and i
00:08:17.520think a lot of canadians are too um you know we're going to get to the point where we have to like
00:08:22.480figure out what happened here uh where we have to think about you know mental health supports for
00:08:26.560kids where we have to think about um you know polarization and uh online radicalization and
00:08:32.720and everything there and we still don't know more uh so much about what's happening here
00:08:37.840um but i think i want to just like continue to take moments for that that grief uh for the
00:08:42.480families and the victims um and i want to make sure that we hold central in this um the community
00:08:48.960of tumblr ridge and do everything that we can as canadians like this is the moment to show who we
00:08:53.520are and what we believe and that is we reject the vilification of a whole community based off the
00:08:59.440actions of an individual we reject a response that comes out of fear we ground ourselves in
00:09:06.800a shared humanity with our neighbors and we we think about solutions that are grounded in evidence
00:09:13.300so that this kind of nightmare can never happen to any child to any teacher to any parent to any
00:09:19.720community ever again and that's really where my thoughts are at um and i wish i could stay there
00:09:26.200because there are you know the conversation we're going to have today where this is being used in
00:09:31.160some really heartbreaking ways but but top of mind for me every single morning every single hour has
00:09:36.200been that community and had the fact that they deserve better and that those kids need us right
00:09:41.080now and we need to address the real factors that led to a crisis like this yeah so on that note i
00:09:49.480I mean, there's still a lot that we don't know about this shooting.
00:09:55.560Really, more than anything, what's been striking when it comes to motivation is the amount of
00:10:01.060mis- and disinformation floating around, fake accounts, claims about motivation as a result.
00:10:07.240Amar, would it be correct to say we're still largely in the dark when it comes to motive
00:10:13.240and potential pathways to radicalization?
00:10:15.900Like, what do we know and what don't we know right now?
00:10:19.480I mean, in terms of motive, there's basically nothing concrete that hasn't stopped people,
00:10:26.660as you say, from speculating in all sorts of directions.
00:10:29.960And this is usually linked to kind of whatever, quote unquote, issue kind of animates their
00:10:36.460So if you're an anti-trans activist, that's the only factor that matters.
00:10:39.500And that's the only factor that you see here.
00:10:41.080If you're if you hate video games and anime, that's the only factor you see here.
00:10:45.040And all of these are taken as causal and the same thing with mental health issues, actually.
00:10:50.980So I noticed this time and again after attacks, people kind of have a desperate need for causality and closure.
00:10:59.140And a single cause is often the most satisfying, the most psychologically satisfying for people.
00:11:04.560We're not, we can place kind of the attacker in a box and it's usually a box that we already hate, you know, surprise, surprise.
00:11:10.360And then we can move on from that, right?0.58
00:11:11.920and so they're trans they have a muslim name they have an immigrant name you know they were on anime
00:11:16.400forums and video games or whatever right and so um it's psychologically satisfying to kind of
00:11:21.760pin something and then and then uh have it have that as the all explanatory factor and um what we
00:11:27.280know from decades of research in the space is that's never the case right that's never it's
00:11:31.760never one thing that's going to be uh the thing um and and structural explanations like you know
00:11:37.920long-term grievance ideology and i'm not saying there was an ideology here we have no idea
00:11:43.680social isolation they're they tend to be slow and messy and uncomfortable and
00:11:50.240you know something like the lack of mental health resources in rural parts of canada you know that's
00:11:54.480not really a sexy causal mechanism for for for violence and so um and we know he was seen by
00:12:00.480police numerous times for mental health calls and even detained under the mental health act and and
00:12:05.040and so on so um the the structural explanations are never satisfying so people always go to these
00:12:11.200kind of um flamboyant topics uh or and and to kind of as explanatory factors and that's usually
00:12:18.960uh usually leads nowhere yeah yeah um it's it's a difficult thing right and uh
00:12:28.880the lack of information which is frankly in many ways the responsible thing right now you know
00:12:34.240law enforcement shouldn't be jumping to conclusions leaves a void because people have that desire for
00:12:40.080answers and then we have an information ecosystem where a lot of bad faith people are willing to
00:12:46.000fill that void right now um you know with their preferred uh vilification their preferred uh
00:12:53.440you know political agenda and it's really gross to see um you know uh i'm just gonna follow up
00:13:01.280with Amar quickly here and then I want to bring Faye in but just on the question of this
00:13:05.840radicalization and you know the how the shooter was she was only 18 um and you know the victims
00:13:13.920were even younger it was at a school I mean I think a lot of Canadians feel a bit shocked that
00:13:21.120this happened here because we're so used to seeing these headlines out of the United States um Amar
00:13:27.280were you surprised that this happened here or are there conditions for young people right now that
00:13:33.840are contributing to like is there an increase in youth radicalization that we're seeing right now
00:13:39.120that helps you to explain this um to some degree obviously we don't know the motivation here
00:13:44.800um but i guess were you surprised to see this happen in canada um i was not i mean i think um
00:13:51.760living as you say like living beside the united states sometimes obscures uh our own gun violence
00:13:57.040problems um and our own kind of mass violence problems because uh there's a ton more of it in
00:14:02.160the united states and they have a ton more school shootings right and so we that tends to kind of
00:14:06.400occupy our consciousness but we've had mass casualty attacks in canada just in in the last
00:14:11.760couple of years there was the vancouver vehicle ramming uh into a into a festival that killed 11
00:14:17.520there was the saskatchewan stabbings there was the nova scotia rampage um and and i put all of those
00:14:23.200in the same box but there are vastly different uh causal mechanisms in all of those right and so
00:14:28.880um we have had mass casualty attacks before um um but the but the good news here i guess is that
00:14:35.440with respect to guns at least um uh and we have a very different landscape in canada which
00:14:42.080prevents the kinds of violence that we see in the u.s uh thankfully um and i think we have a little
00:14:46.640bit more for now uh protective factors at play in terms of our kind of you know still ongoing
00:14:51.520commitment to pluralism and multiculturalism and diversity and um which uh if we look at places
00:14:57.440like you're in some countries in europe and the united states is sometimes going in the opposite
00:15:01.040direction right and so i think um i think that's all good news but it's also not surprising when
00:15:06.480these things flare up um as we've seen um in terms of the radicalization question um yeah i think i
00:15:12.640think there's a lot um there's a there's a kind of broader trend that's happening um in canada that
00:15:18.560is is quite worrisome i think we're seeing um on the one hand kind of the bar for entry into these
00:15:25.840terrorist groups if you want to call it that or extremism landscapes uh pretty low these days um
00:15:31.520you know in the 90s and 2000s if you wanted to join an extremist group you had to actually make
00:15:36.800an effort right you had to you had to put on pants and leave the house and go to go get on a plane
00:15:42.080and do something uh whereas these days because largely thanks to social media you can go to
00:15:47.040school and you can come home and you can make memes for atomwaffen right and and which is kind
00:15:51.360of linked to what the quebec uh shooter or quebec arrest was about and so we saw this with isis
00:15:57.120supporters back in the day as well and so the social media thanks to social media i think the
00:16:00.480bar for entry into some of these movements is quite low and it can be incorporated into their
00:16:04.880uh everyday life in a way that wasn't really the case before which i think explains why we're seeing
00:16:10.800younger and younger people get involved in some of these movements.
00:16:15.840Yeah. Faye, I don't know if you have anything you want to mention on this topic of youth
00:16:20.800radicalization, if it's something you're coming across in your work before we shift gears just a
00:16:26.800little bit. Is this something that you're seeing, experiencing? What are your thoughts on it?
00:16:33.040I mean, I think it's something that we are all still coming to terms with, right? When we look,
00:16:37.760we see that you know society is like the world is becoming more polarized um and and i think that is
00:16:44.160a a breeding ground in its own way for radicalization when we are having a harder
00:16:49.040time seeing humanity across difference uh and and especially in this online era you know it's
00:16:54.880uh we descend into these rabbit holes and they're and they're intended to be rabbit holes
00:16:58.960um and then it becomes easier and easier to to vilify again whole communities or or to descend
00:17:05.520into a space that is divorced from reality um you know i'm in nova scotia right now and i i didn't
00:17:10.480live here during the mass casualty event uh that took place a few years ago but i i saw it and i
00:17:16.000saw the like collective shock and trauma that emerged from it and so again i think it's we've
00:17:20.480had this illusion and we need to wake up from it we need to you know put our big girl pants on and
00:17:24.560recognize that um you know radicalization is a problem even if the causes are coming from a wide
00:17:30.800range of spaces um the other thing that i do just want to make sure you know everyone is keeping in
00:17:36.320mind there is so much information going out there and i think folks from every side of the spectrum
00:17:42.160are feeling a need to say something you know to share information and i've seen that i've seen
00:17:46.960folks in my own world who have had to like retract information that they shared and my message to
00:17:52.000everyone is like we're gonna get the facts and and if you're curious like the rcmp i think did a very
00:17:56.800good job in their briefing uh i believe on on wednesday the days have flown together um
00:18:03.760it was yes it was wednesday um listen to that briefing because they did share information
00:18:08.880right like we know that there were multiple police visits to the home of the suspect we know that
00:18:14.000this uh that this person was struggling with their mental health that i believe weapons had been
00:18:17.920removed previously so at the very least like ground yourself in the story that we know so far
00:18:22.960and then resist the urge to speculate in any direction my focus remains on the victims and
00:18:28.000their families and on the collective grief we're all going through i will get to you know what are
00:18:33.040our solutions and that is a conversation that my world is is eager for we know that radicalization
00:18:38.640is happening we know that polarization is happening but again right now that that shouldn't
00:18:44.400really be the conversation uh we have to be in grief and again we're having this conversation
00:18:49.280now in response uh to others having begun that practice and the need to almost like
00:18:54.800bring the temperature down and ground ourselves back in that shared humanity and grief um but
00:19:00.320we'll get there uh but we will not get there when we're still in our feelings we are all still
00:19:04.880reeling from a traumatic event and we don't know what the hell happened and so let's take a deep
00:19:11.120breath and then do it again can i just jump in quickly i i think i think part of to your earlier
00:19:17.040question rachel um what we're seeing is at the same time that misinformation has always existed
00:19:22.480in the online space and uh we're also seeing structural changes in these social media companies
00:19:28.160to remove their trust and safety teams to remove uh any kind of fact checking and so we're seeing
00:19:32.640that the amount of nonsense just that just floats floats freely um is is kind of unprecedented and
00:19:39.680so at the time when at the same time when there are crisis uh crises that require kind of a
00:19:45.920tempered response um you're seeing kind of the guardrails removed on these social media companies
00:19:50.720to to allow basically anything to fly right and i think one of the things that was interesting is
00:19:55.680almost all of the early misinformation came from uh accounts that were based elsewhere right they
00:20:00.720weren't canadian news reporters they weren't canadian accounts it was coming from all over
00:20:05.120the place and and uh and so there is a real um attempt by bad bad actors in canada but also
00:20:14.000abroad to try to like tear at the fault lines of society and it's like you know tear at the things
00:20:19.760that are dividing us and and make them worse right and and so and i think we kind of fall right into
00:20:24.720uh into those traps too and there's no guardrails in these companies to kind of prevent that either
00:20:29.040so it's not a good time for all of these things to converge yeah yeah and i think that that's um
00:20:35.760you know i always wonder when we see people reaching for these easy um answers in in these
00:20:42.560situations if that's not i mean i guess maybe this is the most obvious thing to say in some ways but
00:20:48.160if that's not just a salve to the reality which is that a lot of the things that need to change
00:20:54.560to help address these issues of radicalization involve you know breaking up tech monopolies
00:21:00.640you know enforcement and regulatory moves against social media companies that pose difficult debates
00:21:07.600about where the line is with freedom of speech and things like um you know mental health supports
00:21:13.760adequately funding health care stop this relentless you know attempts to underfund public health care
00:21:20.880so that you can break it and privatize it and it's just like all of these questions require these
00:21:26.720big bold moves from lawmakers and societies and i think that it's a lot easier to just
00:21:34.320make a boogeyman than to recognize that a lot of the most powerful people in our society aren't
00:21:41.360necessarily doing the bold brave things that need to be done to address root causes that send people
00:21:48.080down pipelines to radicalization whether or not that's a factor in this specific instance in a
00:21:53.280broad sense i think that uh it can be really overwhelming but it's essential that we actually
00:21:59.840have those conversations, and I hope that we do in the wake of this. Faye, I don't know if you
00:22:04.480were gearing up to jump in off of that, but if not, I can also ask another question, but I'll just,
00:22:09.280yeah, okay. So, because I did want to, you know, obviously touch on the vilification
00:22:17.520that we saw in the wake of this. I mean, it disgusts me, and we shouldn't be talking about
00:22:23.280this. I don't want to be talking about this. None of us here, I think, want to be talking about this,
00:22:28.080But people are using the murder of children for their political agenda. And as a result of those people, their selfishness, their attempts to vilify entire communities, we now have to address this.
00:22:44.400so one thing that people were quick to jump on was the gender identity of the shooter
00:22:52.800the internet exploded with bad actors grifters and hacks using this moment to vilify trans people
00:23:03.720even when a family member asked them to stop I'm not sure if you guys saw that clip but
00:23:08.320uh little kylie her father said that she was a supporter of the lgbtq community and asked people
00:23:17.280to stop talking about the shooter and about the shooter's identity so you know i i it's so
00:23:26.000frustrating seeing people ignore that while pretending to care about the victims but faye
00:23:30.720i wanted to ask you first off how is the trans community in canada doing right now
00:23:36.320You know, I actually want to tell like the story that I watched unfold. So on Tuesday night,
00:23:43.440you know, I saw the news and my heart broke. And this was before anything about the identity
00:23:50.240of the suspect was confirmed. And immediately, like, you know, because of my work, because of
00:23:56.000who I am, a lot of my social media following, a lot of the people that I'm in community with are
00:24:00.160members of the trans and broader LGBT community. And I saw an immediate expression of heartbreak
00:24:05.680and mourning which is you know again what everyone is feeling and that's what i saw continue right
00:24:10.720like my community our hearts are indeed broken and we feel a little bit less safe just like every
00:24:17.920single canadian does um we are going through a shared experience and we don't have the words to
00:24:24.320describe that um and so i think you know on that level we are feeling exactly what everyone else is
00:24:31.200We are going through a historic and heartbreaking event together collectively at the same time.
00:24:39.280And then, you know, on Wednesday, I hear about the rumors. And at that stage, we are unsure around
00:24:48.160the validity of those rumors. And there's a moment where I'm, again, believing that this is,
00:24:53.040you know, as has been done in the past, this is misinformation and disinformation seeking
00:24:58.320to target trans people but it was indeed confirmed i believe at around 2 30 pm eastern by the rcmp
00:25:06.160that the suspect identified as trans and had identified as trans for six years
00:25:10.640and at that moment like there was a rock in my stomach um and it it became a lot heavier um you
00:25:16.720know i'm already like heartbroken like i again i don't have the words to describe the like what
00:25:21.120happened in tumblr ridge and the like trauma that the victims and families are going through um but
00:25:27.920there was also you know 10 percent of my brain was like oh i now know what's going to happen next
00:25:32.160and what's going to happen next is is what has to a certain extent uh the vilification and
00:25:37.280dehumanization of trans people i believe that tweet from tara armstrong was issued prior to
00:25:42.720any information being confirmed by the rcmp um this is like i mean it's a response i i said this
00:25:51.360i think a comment to the canadian press that like it is un-canadian uh to use this moment of pain
00:25:58.160and trauma uh to punch down on uh any community and again i don't want there's a lot of stuff in
00:26:06.000here that even as you see on the screen that is you know talking about this and like we need to
00:26:10.800stop using pronouns we need to refer to the suspect this way um i refer to the suspect as the suspect
00:26:16.000uh and i keep my attention on the families the victims and the community of tumblr rich but
00:26:22.400you know what i have seen is trans people posting the gofundmes uh to support the victims and their
00:26:28.400families i have seen people showing up in every way that they can i have seen folks you know
00:26:33.840reaching out to one another because we are worried like this happened not in a vacuum right a lot of
00:26:39.440trans folks are scared uh writ large a lot of people are scared but a lot of trans folks are
00:26:44.240in an environment where our identities have been polarized and politicized to such a degree
00:26:49.520and and this event and the fact that the suspect identified as trans we knew it would become
00:26:56.320exactly what it has and so folks were checking in on each other checking in on their neighbors0.70
00:27:00.960checking in on their friends um and that actually like did warm my heart it was the most and i hate
00:27:06.400like i'm not a gal that goes off around like canada's built different but it felt like a very
00:27:10.960canadian response to say in this moment we're going to lean on each other and we're going to
00:27:15.920grieve together but we're going to make sure that we're okay and as we do that as we have the
00:27:20.720conversation and the fear the trans people are going through right now we're also not going to
00:27:25.120make it about that because again it shouldn't be we're going to keep our focus where it belongs
00:27:29.360which is on the victims on the unequivocal denunciation of this like how of the suspect
00:27:35.360and the fact that they could do a most vile and abhorrent act um but we're going to think about
00:27:40.400those families and we're going to keep sharing those links we're going to keep being in that0.96
00:27:45.040space of shared collective grief across the goddamn country yeah yeah it's um0.71
00:27:54.000it is it's a really hard thing uh and i find it's so distressing that some folks are making0.91
00:28:01.760it harder by not focusing on what actually matters and by using this i can't imagine
00:28:06.800looking at these babies, really, like they're so small. And your reaction being to push your
00:28:16.600agenda of vilification. It's just, it's really disturbing. You know, Amar, as someone who
00:28:24.980studies extremism extensively, like, what would you say to these folks who are trying to make
00:28:32.380this about gender identity um i think um i mean first and foremost let's just let's just put it
00:28:42.380out there um trans people are vast more vastly more likely to be victims of violence than
00:28:48.220perpetrators of violence um they are dramatically underrepresented with in kind of mass casualty
00:28:54.140violence related relative to population size um so that's just like baseline um and i i do think
00:29:01.660this kind of like what we were talking about earlier this clean uh this clean villain category
00:29:07.100that everyone is is uh looking for um is very annoying to watch very exhausting to watch it
00:29:13.420happens after every single attack um and and kind of gender identity becomes this kind of
00:29:19.180convenient shortcut um to to kind of tap into which is something that's already politically
00:29:25.020uh and emotionally charged with some of the screenshots you were showing earlier you know
00:29:29.020we have to remove our pronouns and all this kind of stuff um long before anything even um anything
00:29:34.460is even ironed out um but i mean in terms of the broader research i would say um what what is
00:29:41.740important i mean gender is important for extremism but not in the way that they're talking about it
00:29:46.460right it's not in the way that they're talking about it if if uh because i think people should
00:29:52.460really watch for a very important rhetorical shift that happens uh with some of these individuals is
00:29:58.220that they uh talk about identity as ideology right and and so oftentimes you'll and you'll see this
00:30:06.060with um when they talk about muslims when they talk about the lgbtq like islam is not a religion
00:30:11.500but it's a political ideology or or uh you know trans is not an identity but it's an ideology
00:30:16.140right they they think of it in terms of uh an agenda and therefore can be blamed and can be
00:30:22.620seen in a very particular way identity as a thing in decades of research has zero impact on their
00:30:31.980commitment to violence or how it it impacts violence yes ideology matters and sometimes
00:30:37.420when we talk about incel ideology or hyper masculinity you know the andrew tates of the
00:30:41.340world gender identity is important but it functions in a very particular way in a very particular
00:30:46.060context it's not just the fact that you have an identity is somehow seen as a causal mechanism
00:30:51.500uh is is is just not true right and and so but i think it happens so subtly sometimes uh that
00:30:58.740people miss when this rhetorical shifts are happening by of turning an identity into an
00:31:04.300ideology and that's generally the first step before all kinds of dehumanizing shit starts0.91
00:31:08.700to come out of their mouth yeah and i think that's part of what's so scary right like it feels like a0.96
00:31:14.600lot of the rhetoric coming from people right now is a precursor to more violence it's like they're
00:31:19.920trying to create social conditions for this dehumanization of trans folks and therefore for
00:31:25.920it to be acceptable to do violence against them and yeah Faye go ahead I just said like that the
00:31:32.860way that Amara put it there the the like treatment of identity as ideology like really is is the
00:31:38.700phenomena that I'm seeing happen uh when it comes to like you know anti-trans hate writ large right
00:31:44.500like there are trans people across the political spectrum there are trans people who uh I wildly
00:31:49.600disagree with but there's this like growing insinuation that there's an agenda and it does
00:31:55.280like it's a throwback to the fact that you know the idea of having a gay teacher means that
00:31:59.360there's an agenda being pushed in your school my community we look a little bit different like we
00:32:04.480are more likely to live outside of society's still very rigid idea concepts or beliefs around how
00:32:13.280people are supposed to look how they're supposed to act and that is a hotbed for malignment for
00:32:19.520vilification um and so i would say yeah like like that i've said a few times like let's
00:32:24.480hold our shared humanity close um and let's remember like you know i often say a a kid
00:32:30.640wearing a headscarf has a lot in common with a trend kid like for their teachers to screw up
00:32:35.600their names uh and for their peers to treat them differently in the classroom across all of our
00:32:40.560communities we actually have a lot more in common when we take the time to have the conversation
00:32:45.360And what I would say is, you know, there is a deep conversation to be had around inclusion in
00:32:51.040schools and around like how we talk about gender and sexuality. And we have to both push back on
00:32:56.320the attempt to malign like efforts that are aimed at building safer schools and affording a sense
00:33:02.720of belonging for all kids, the attempt to vilify that. But also this again, this broader in this
00:33:08.480case the attempt to turn a horrific event into another example uh to vilify a community um i
00:33:16.320make no excuses for the suspect uh i make no excuses and i refuse actually at this moment
00:33:22.240i'll put them in context down the road at this moment i'm not putting it in context i am just
00:33:26.880in my feelings and i'm furious and heartbroken and how like i just don't have the words uh but again
00:33:33.520this isn't about the fact that the person is trans uh shouldn't be about that fact we know nothing
00:33:39.120about this individual um except for like a few words at an rcmp press conference and so i would
00:33:45.840just come back to saying it is like disgusting for anyone to make political hay out of this
00:33:51.120and to do so um to you know further a political agenda i'm not coming on here with a political
00:33:56.320agenda i'm coming on here to share my grief and my feelings and maybe if i have an agenda it's
00:34:01.520to try to keep our attention where it belongs um and not to you know go off in a hundred directions
00:34:07.040we'll have that discussion in the weeks and months to come and i i can just i can only hope and pray
00:34:12.400that canadians use this moment to take that deep breath and have that conversation grounded in our
00:34:17.440values and in real solutions instead of that boogeyman that you referred to earlier or that
00:34:23.360scapegoating tendency that does come out of us uh in uh at our worst moments yeah and you know i
00:34:33.520i don't want to give the they're basically flooding the zone with different bids to demonize
00:34:41.840and vilify so you can't to to sit here and debunk and fact check is just to play their game um
00:34:50.160because i don't think that's the conversation that we should be having right now as you just said
00:34:54.880the the only thing i'm going to acknowledge and touch on is there are those attempting to link
00:35:02.400this to hormones and ssris and that is dangerous misinformation if any of this is used to roll back
00:35:12.960gender affirming care, that will have deadly consequences. We know from study after study
00:35:20.260after study that gender affirming care saves lives. So if your instinct is to call for gender
00:35:27.200affirming care to be rolled back in the face of a single trans person for no reason of their0.88
00:35:34.200identity engaging in an act of violence, then you are advocating for the deaths of more kids0.70
00:35:41.560in the wakes, in the wake of the death of kids. And that is disturbing. And I can also say,
00:35:47.960as someone who takes SSRIs, those are life-saving too. So cut the shit. And if you see any policy1.00
00:35:56.500maker or lawmaker attempt to make any permanent changes to our society, which we've already seen
00:36:03.120underway, that could have these deadly consequences, do not let them use this moment
00:36:09.520as further proof and evidence of the validity of that kind of cruelty.
00:36:16.740Faye, I did just want to ask you before I move on,0.53
00:36:19.800I mean, what can Canadians do to support the trans community right now?
00:51:57.620And I think that's leading to a kind of burn it all down phenomenon where traditional ideology, you know, whether you're talking about the Islamic State, which wanted to build a caliphate or far right movements, which want to build a white ethno state.
00:52:11.080At least there was like there's like a vision, right?
00:52:14.100The current society is messed up and we're going to break it down and we're going to build something new.
00:52:18.000Whereas what we're seeing now is the current society is messed up.
00:52:23.160There's no like there's no like something out of the ashes that they're envisioning.0.97
00:52:27.060And we're seeing much more younger and younger people get involved with this kind of meaninglessness, nihilistic kind of worldview also, which is everything sucks.0.98
00:52:37.460Everything needs to be burned to the ground.
00:52:39.560Some of our intervention providers across Canada are seeing cases as young as nine who are kind of involved in these spaces.
00:52:47.220And I think part of that is because where this recruitment is happening, right, where the recruitment happens impacts the demographics.
00:52:56.020And so if you're recruiting on Twitter, you might find someone in their 20s, 30s, 40s.
00:53:00.400But if you're recruiting on Discord and Roblox, you might actually find a nine-year-old and a 10-year-old on there.
00:53:06.740And so part of the fallout, part of what we're seeing is because of the platforms that are being used for this recruitment.
00:53:11.680But yeah, it's a little bit more scary these days because we're used to seeing coherent ideologies.
00:53:18.000And I think that some of these cases anywhere are moving in the opposite direction.
00:53:23.460And I would just jump in like quickly, I would agree fully. And also like, you know, the lefty in me is like, we are in this state because of, you know, late stage capitalism and an affordability crisis orchestrated by those with a whole lot of wealth who want to keep hoarding that wealth as the planet burns around them.
00:53:40.360And so there is a piece of me that if we were all able to like, if young people were able to imagine owning a home, imagine being able to afford to raise a family, some of this would change. I don't think that is a silver bullet, but I think it's part of the conversation. But I would extremely aggressively agree with the, like, there is a sense of burn it all down and a hopelessness underneath it.
00:54:02.040one of my favorite people kai cheng tom wrote a book called i hope we choose love
00:54:06.120i think it's like a trans girl's notes for the apocalypse it might be yes it's right there um
00:54:10.280it's like in the background um but it's like one of the things my message is to my world and to0.69
00:54:15.640the world is i want us to choose i want us to choose to believe that again our neighbors don't
00:54:22.280hate us uh and that we can actually build a better world like we are going through an era where there
00:54:27.640are like all of these like world ending things feel closer like the climate apocalypse uh the
00:54:33.800breakage of the like the like the like the rules based world order like all of these things are
00:54:39.640really scary and one of the things we got to do through it is to choose hope and to choose to
00:54:43.960believe that if people come together uh we can get through this because that's what we've done
00:54:48.520every time before june aid wants to know is the far right in canada any close to gaining power
00:54:56.520like they did in the US, UK, Germany, etc. I don't know what you guys think of that. I mean,
00:55:05.220here, I think it depends on, you know, if I can just take a little stab at this before I turn to
00:55:10.140you guys. I do think it kind of depends on where you see the far right is beginning. I think that
00:55:15.820some people would put some of the ideologies that you see from Pierre Polyev in that category,
00:55:20.800but not the whole thing. If you view that more in the camp of the People's Party, then they're
00:55:27.500pretty irrelevant. But there are also people who are very actively working, like the Dominion
00:55:34.420Society, for example, to sort of infiltrate and get their messaging into our politics. And they
00:55:40.100view the Conservative Party clearly as having the most potential for them to be successful in that,
00:55:48.980which is demonstrated by the fact that they're, you know, protesting outside of their conventions
00:55:53.600and talking on live streams, making big claims that I have not verified.
00:55:59.260And I, you know, these guys like to lie and boast about having guys on the inside of the Conservative Party.
00:56:05.580So, you know, there's elements certainly of far right ideologies,
00:56:10.040and Amar would probably be able to speak better to that,
00:56:13.320that are at the very least attempting to permeate the Conservative Party.
00:56:18.280the degree to which they've been successful is maybe the aspect that's up for debate but there's
00:56:22.980certainly conspiracy theory dog whistles happening um you know certain attacks on trans communities
00:56:28.780and things like that that we have seen from Karapaliev's mouth so um I don't know if you
00:56:35.840want to yeah no I mean I think I think all of that is correct um it really does depend what
00:56:41.320you mean by the far right if you mean kind of this uh anti-immigrant sentiment if you mean
00:56:45.860uh the anti-lgbtq stuff the the you know self-deport stuff um because i think if your
00:56:52.020vision of the far right is like overt neo-nazi white nationalism that's quite small in canada
00:56:58.660not small as i'd like it but it's smaller than general kind of disdain for immigrants and
00:57:03.300refugees um but if your if your question is are they are they able to gain power like they have
00:57:09.220in the us or um you know geert wilder's election uh in in the netherlands um i think we're still
00:57:14.900far from that in canada thankfully i would keep keep an eye on the people's party of canada
00:57:20.420numbers because if those shift into the uh i think that what is it two percent now or whatever it was
00:57:25.460in the last election if that starts to go up then that's a kind of indicator of uh the trend going
00:57:31.140in the wrong direction but i but there is this broader concern of polyev um speaking in dog
00:57:37.700whistles uh to kind of to see what see what's going on but i i do think living beside the u.s
00:57:42.340has has uh has been harmful to him because we can see now that some of these ideas aren't abstract
00:57:47.140and when you say we're going to send all the immigrants back home like what that actually
00:57:50.900looks like when it actually happens in minnesota and other places um and so i don't think i think
00:57:55.620canadians even if you like the idea in your head and when you see what it actually looks like to
00:57:59.700make happen you're like oh that's not good right and so um it it's the what's happening in the us
00:58:04.740has converted abstract ideas that probably have has been speaking about into concrete uh tweets
00:58:11.620and videos um yeah that what this actually will look like in terms of if it's put into practice
00:58:17.620yeah it's sort of the up silver lining of the horrors in the states is at least we get to
00:58:23.460hopefully learn the lessons from them um so faye's coming up against uh the their heart out uh so
00:58:31.060she's like she's gotta run but i you know i appreciate you saying a little extra so i'll
00:58:34.980just quickly throw you this uh last question and then you can hop off um canadian goose wants to
00:58:40.340know i understand that the lgbtq plus community and people at large should continue to support
00:58:44.660the victims families however there is a serious concern about queer trans and non-binary people
00:58:48.980having a need to protect ourselves when out in public if so how oh this is like i i struggle
00:58:55.300with this question i very much understand like where it comes from i would remind everyone that
00:58:59.060we are still in canada and while there is indeed like the illusion of safety has been shattered to
00:59:04.100a certain extent we are still in canada there are some disgusting heartbreaking things happening in
00:59:09.060this country hate is rising polarization is underway and indeed we've got two provincial
00:59:14.180governments stripping rights away from trans people um we are still a nation where we have
00:59:19.780human rights protections to a certain extent uh we are still a nation like i think we sometimes
00:59:25.220because we're scared we also create a narrative that is like 50 years down the worst trajectory
00:59:30.980ahead of where we actually are um i you know i am a person who when the hershey's thing happened i
00:59:36.180had to have security guards with me for five days and it was a terrifying moment that was also0.64
00:59:41.060because i was like turned into an international problem and that's not a normal experience and so
00:59:46.660for most community members i would say you know you're gonna be okay that doesn't mean like there0.98
00:59:51.060will be horrible people and there will be like adverse incidences right like there are trans
00:59:55.540people who are being subjected to hate and to violence um but i would say you know come together
01:00:00.820take take all of this i hate this because it sounds victim blaming but it's the same like
01:00:04.500you know don't walk home alone through the sketchy park at 2 a.m uh you know take those
01:00:09.620steps to protect yourself because it is a scary environment right now and there have been moments
01:00:14.580where i have to worry just because of how i look that somebody's going to you know treat me or
01:00:18.660engage in an act of violence um but right now i think you know come together um don't let it get
01:00:24.100in your head like we're going to be okay our community is going to be okay and we're going
01:00:27.380to find the solutions uh to build a safer country for us and indeed for everyone uh with that uh
01:00:32.900Rachel Amar, thank you so much for having me. I got to pop off, but it was a pleasure. And thank
01:00:37.700you for the way that you've handled this heartbreaking convo because it is a really0.53
01:00:41.620shitty time. And I think the grace that we brought to this conversation and that you brought to this
01:00:46.820conversation is one of the ways that we get through this shit show. Thank you. And thank0.98
01:00:51.780you for coming on and having this difficult conversation. So we'll see you, Faye. Thanks,
01:00:57.380Faye. So Amar, I don't know if you want to take a quick stab at this question and then we can also
01:01:02.420wrap up i just uh i don't see any uh other questions in the chat right now um if i've
01:01:08.180missed one now is your chance to re-up it but uh yeah um go ahead if you have any thoughts on this
01:01:15.220to add no i mean i think phase points are important um i will say if you are a actual
01:01:20.660like organization uh working in this space there are uh increased funds available through public
01:01:26.100safety canada as well as i think provincial uh government as well to uh actually do kind
01:01:31.300of material safety things like funds for security cameras and fences and locks and things like that
01:01:36.900that that there are grants available for organizations that are uh worried about this
01:01:41.380stuff um and and and so this this came out with all the attacks on mosques and synagogues and
01:01:46.100things like that and so there are funds available for kind of physical safety that you can tap into
01:01:50.740if you're an ngo or something like that but in terms of personal safety i would agree with0.59
01:01:54.340everything face that just use use your general sense of um safety when kind of out there and about
01:02:02.980yeah all right well amara thank you so much for coming on here um i do just quickly want
01:02:09.300to say thank you to all of you for you know uh coming here and spending this time with us
01:02:14.900and uh you know it's it's been a really difficult couple of days for all of canada so just focus
01:02:22.660on community on helping each other check in with yourself and make sure you're taking care of
01:02:28.420yourself too and uh you know let's let's keep our focus on what matters here which is taking care of
01:02:36.020the families the community and each other um amar thank you again for being here uh really
01:02:42.820appreciate your time yeah no thank you and thank you for the conversation and the work that you do